Mace as paladin weapon?

lorgrius

Moderator Update to Topic:
To help get this thread back on topic, I now proclaim the new topic direction of this thread to be based upon Panderus' respectful reply to our feedback:

Panderus stated:

"I just tracked a few people down and the current plan is to have the primary Oathbound Paladin gear rewards be maces. HOWEVER, a number of items especially transmute rewards will use Guardian Fighter swords and at least one Devoted Cleric Scepter.

So there will be choices other than maces, but that will be the primary focus.

I'll blow vuvuzela until I die!"

Please keep further replies of feedback and opinions based upon this direction. Thanks!

~Zeb

Original Post wrote:

The choice to make paladins use maces as thier weapon is to me a very strange choice. I have been playing pnp dnd since basic and first addition advanced. My first mildly succesfull adnd character was a paladin and I can still remember the quest I had to go on at forth level to call my warhorse. Epic times back in 86'. Sadly he was overrun and killed by giant ants shortly thereafter.

Anyways, and few points to concider.

Paladins have always used martial weapons in dnd. Maces are simple weapons and the iconic weapon of the original dnd cleric. Maces were good to carry around at low levels for any fighter type class because skelletons needed thier bones crushed. Slash or stab just woldn't do back in the day.

The iconic weapon of the Paladin was always the +5 Holy Avenger. The Holy avenger was a +2 longsword in anyones hands unless they were a paladin. Then watch out casue it was a then a holy longsword of awesomness. In forth addition the holy avanger was able to be any type of weapon (which is nice if you are say a dwarf and really like hammers) but for 5th addition it is back to any blade. Though sadly there is the +3 cap. Doesnt have the same ring as +5 Holy Avenger. The point here is it is much more iconic to have a longsword when playing a pally.

How iconic is the longsword in dnd for a pally? Of all the dnd paladin art I can think of I do not recall having ever seen a paladin pictured with anything other than a longsword and shield. I am sure there has to be a dnd rulebook somewhere with a paladin with some other weapon but I can not think of said book. In other vidio games with paladins they sometime use different weapons such as wow where the hammer (which is still not a mace) became the iconic weapon though they could still wield a varity of weapon types. This however is dnd. I want a sword!

Yes, I want to the option to use a sword. I understand that for ballancing have a OP and GF use different weapons allows for different numbers or stat allocations. I am cool with this and even like the fact that all classes have different loot tables. Bu the whole knight in shinning armor paladin thing is a little disonant with a mace in hand. Longsword! Or a least the ability to reskin the mace as a sword.

valwryn

There is an OP Transmuting sword sold by the TBar merchant. There's bound to be more weapon options later.

There's a pic of it in this thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?842271-The-new-tree-in-PE

rabbinicus

Well, at least it wasn't pepper spray....

They did mention more weapon options. The current sword transmute is the same as the nightmare blade transmute for GF's.

While the action figure came with a longsword, in the classic D&D cartoon, Strongheart the Paladin used a hammer. If you're going to fight someone in heavy armor, bring a good, spiked bashing weapon like a mace. Historically, many knights used maces in combat. In addition to being more effective than a sword against similarly armored foes, they were considerably less costly (why do you think knights went to war? Money) and easier to replace/repair.

zebular

Aye, they did indeed say that we will get swords in some fashion but for now they are as transmutes. Such is something still in development, so there's no real concrete answer for such, but all hints and mentions make it sound like they do want to add in actual swords beyond transmutes but may just not be on the current time-table.

I know several DMs that allowed (I am one too) a Paladin to use any weapon they devoted to their God to work as a Holy Avenger, or similar to them. For there are recorded instances of canon NPC Paladins using weapons other than Swords all the way back to first edition. Yes, a Holy Avenger Longsword is "Iconic" for Paladins, but it is not a strict mandate.

As for my wishes on this subject: I sorely want my first Paladin to be able to have the choice of a Sword through out the leveling process without having to transmute them during leveling. So, here's to hoping we get actual Sword Weapons in game for them to choose from in quest rewards and loot drops before Mod 6 goes live. Max-level weapons I am not so concerned about, as long as they have transmute options at max level. It's the leveling process that worries me, as lugging around a mace will be an immersion breaker for me on that character.

angrysprite

The mace complaint is really uncalled-for the way I see it. Historically a well-geared knight had both: sword and some kind of mace (I believe the mace was used more often when fighting while mounted and against armored foes). Just the way I remember my history lessons in school.

Anyway, I've no doubts there will be some drops during the leveling process that will be swords. How often and how many? Who knows. With more than one of every class leveled to 60 already I've found that leveling gear just doesn't matter in this regard (it could be Divine Daisies for all I care). It's the end gear you acquire and choose to keep as your main that is the important stuff, the one you want to be what you want it to be, such as a sword or whatnot.

So all this hubbub about "why a mace!!!" is really a moot point the way I see it. I'm fine with it myself. Besides, other than the Holy Symbol on your shield, how else will anyone know you're a Paladin and not a Guardian Fighter?

I'm more curious about whether there will be some kind of visual cue as to whether a Paladin is on the Devotion or Protection Oath as they are almost completely different classes in terms of what they do and are capable of; actually classified (for game engine mechanics) as different 'base class' types: fighter versus healer. LOL

lorgrius

I think you are right on your history, knights would have used a mace more often than a sword. Of course historically there were no dragons to go fight or evil spellcasters to hunt down.

I also share you view on leveling gear for the most part. But I wouldn't mind some skin variation while leveling -- for all classes:) Leveling is a fairly short part of the game and I could role play away the mace as being a squire or something.

The "hubbub about the mace" really boils down to this for me as I do not pretend to speak for others. The mace suffered from association with the cleric. Clerics were uncool. (there is a certain irony about kids who played dnd accusing anything of being uncool back in the mid 80's buy hey - was what it was) I think clerics were uncool becasue of being religeous and being stuck with the mace as their primary weapon. I don't mind someone seeing me with a sword and board and thinking "hey he is a fighter", but what I don't want people seeing me with a mace and saying "ah, poor cleric!" So basically it is the strong association I have with mace=cleric that casues hubbub in my mind. I have grown up a bit (and aged even more) since the mid 80's and I think that maces have a high potential for some good art work and would like to have them around for choices of skins to use - on both the GF and the OP. Also, I would object a lot less to a hammer than a mace. I am a not so closet dwarf - I like me hammers. Need me some axes too. Just sayen.

Oh, and rabbinicus - back in the day I sat down with plenty of game groups that did think mace was pepper spray. Fortunatly there was a picture of a weapon rack in the basic rule set book that had a mace on it. Didn't solve all the confusion however. Ah, memories:)

ryugasirius

Maces are an iconic cleric weapon, there's no doubt about that, even if we consider clerics are not blunt-bound since 3rd edition (and there were exceptions in AD&D 2nd ed. too!).

Paladins... well, they aren't often depicted with blunt weapons. If you google for "D&D paladin" images, you won't find any. Mostly sword+shield, sometimes a 2h weapon, in rare cases with a warhammer or dual wielding short swords. That's why it's quite weird as a choice.

br00tall0rd

I have played a lot of World of Warcraft and I don't have any problems with paladins using maces.

charononus

br00tall0rd wrote: »

I have played a lot of World of Warcraft and I don't have any problems with paladins using maces.

Sigh....................

I don't even care about maces for pallies and even I'm distressed about this comment.

banegrivm

Historically knights used swords not maces. Also when they fought in the melee lists (the ground equivalency of jousting) they carried broadswords. Knights were versed in all forms of martial combat at the time, which would include maces, the flail (ball and chain), and the list goes on. Swords were however their mainstay.

Gary Gygax based the paladin class on the legends of St. George who ran around on a white horse named Bayard and carried a magic sword named Ascalon that he slew dragons with. St. George was the first paladin to ever appear in our real myths and legends and appeared after the time of Uther Pendragon and before Arthur Pendragon would take the throne. Other paladins in the Arthurian mythos (Galahad, Lancelot, etc.) all used swords.

I shouldn't have to grind out a transmute and then pay an absurd fee just to use a weapon which should be a mainstay to the class. That's just wrong. It's unfair. We already share armor with the guardian fighter why can't we share weapons with them? We could do the same thing with the mace for them too. It happens in D&D where many character classes share weapons. Why should a game based on D&D be any different?

Furthermore, when I heard that "maces are iconic for paladins" I almost fell out of my chair at the statement. In 33 years of playing table top D&D (and having worked as an author for D&D based products) I have never once seen a paladin anywhere in any game I ran or play use ANY blunt weapon at all ever. I've always seen paladins using swords. Let us not also forget that the holy avenger is a sword, not an axe, not a flail, and definitely not a blunt weapon. Paladins use swords. No matter how you try to put the square peg into the round hole because it's your personal preference it still won't fit.

Maces are not nor will ever be iconic. Swords are iconic as they have been since there have ever been knights, and all the paladins from our own myths and legends were all pious knights.

I for one do not like it. I will never like it. If you tell me that I have to like it the only thing that you will accomplish is making me resentful and liking it even less than I already do. It's an eyesore.

There is just no reason for this at all except for someones personal preference. I can surmise that's the case given the statement made about maces being iconic. There is plenty of reason for paladins using swords and plenty of things that could easily be done to fix the problem and resolve it so that everyone can be happy all across the board.

charononus

banegrivm wrote: »

Historically knights used swords not maces. Also when they fought in the melee lists (the ground equivalency of jousting) they carried broadswords. Knights were versed in all forms of martial combat at the time, which would include maces, the flail (ball and chain), and the list goes on. Swords were however their mainstay.

Gary Gygax based the paladin class on the legends of St. George who ran around on a white horse named Bayard and carried a magic sword named Ascalon that he slew dragons with. St. George was the first paladin to ever appear in our real myths and legends and appeared after the time of Uther Pendragon and before Arthur Pendragon would take the throne. Other paladins in the Arthurian mythos (Galahad, Lancelot, etc.) all used swords.

I shouldn't have to grind out a transmute and then pay an absurd fee just to use a weapon which should be a mainstay to the class. That's just wrong. It's unfair. We already share armor with the guardian fighter why can't we share weapons with them? We could do the same thing with the mace for them too. It happens in D&D where many character classes share weapons. Why should a game based on D&D be any different or is this D&D in name only?

Furthermore, when I heard that "maces are iconic for paladins" I almost fell out of my chair at the statement. In 33 years of playing table top D&D (and having worked as an author for D&D based products) I have never once seen a paladin anywhere in any game I ran or play use ANY blunt weapon at all ever. I've always seen paladins using swords. Let us not also forget that the holy avenger is a sword, not an axe, not a flail, and definitely not a blunt weapon. Paladins use swords. No matter how you try to put the square peg into the round hole because it's your personal preference it still won't fit.

Maces are not nor will ever be iconic. Swords are iconic.

I for one do not like it. I will never like it. If you tell me that I have to like it the only thing that you will accomplish is making me resentful and liking it even less than I already do.

There is just no reason for this at all except for someones personal preference. I can surmise that's the case given the statement made about them being iconic. There is plenty of reason for paladins using swords and plenty of things that could easily be done to fix the problem and resolve it so that everyone can be happy all across the board.

Do you really think that there is a snowballs chance in a certain fiery place that it will be or even could be changed at this point? I sure don't. The absolute best you can hope for is more sword transmutes, which they already said they're going to do. Raging on the forums about it will do nothing but raise your blood pressure.

banegrivm

br00tall0rd wrote: »

I have played a lot of World of Warcraft and I don't have any problems with paladins using maces.

I've played plenty of WoW and still play. I've never used a mace on my paladin ever, and a paladin is my main. Even in WoW paladins don't use Maces anymore. Tirion Fordring has a holy sword, Ashbringer.

banegrivm

charononus wrote: »

Do you really think that there is a snowballs chance in a certain fiery place that it will be or even could be changed at this point? I sure don't. The absolute best you can hope for is more sword transmutes, which they already said they're going to do. Raging on the forums about it will do nothing but raise your blood pressure.

Yes, this isn't supposed to go live for a few months. They have time. The question is will they do it? This is why we test. We tell them what we like, don't like, what works, what doesn't work, and they fix it. If for example they shared weapons with the guardian fighter that would be a quick fix and make everyone happy across the board. They could in turn share the mace with the guardian fighter as well. Win win for everyone. Transmuting isn't a solution. I wouldn't even call that a bandaid. If they snub us, the end result will be people feeling resentful towards them. Their end goal is to get people paying money. I for one will never pay money for something that should be a basic mainstay of a class.

charononus

banegrivm wrote: »

Yes, this isn't supposed to go live for a few months. They have time. The question is will they do it? This is why we test. We tell them what we like, don't like, what works, what doesn't work, and they fix it. If for example they shared weapons with the guardian fighter that would be a quick fix and make everyone happy across the board. They could in turn share the mace with the guardian fighter as well. Win win for everyone.

Well I doubt we have that much time. If this isn't out by the end of march my jaw will be on the floor. I think we have less than one month before it comes out more likely.

zebular

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Let's keep off of other game and real world discussions. This is a D&D Game based off of D&D, let's keep the discussion on the topic of: Weapons Used by Paladins in Dungeons & Dragons. We don't need a history lesson of what inspired D&D, for D&D has been around long enough to make its own history, no matter how much inspiration was originally drawn from other material. Thanks!

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banegrivm

charononus wrote: »

Well I doubt we have that much time. If this isn't out by the end of march my jaw will be on the floor. I think we have less than one month before it comes out more likely.

I had heard April from a friend of mine who had looked it up. Although we will see when we will see, but I still cannot imagine why they could not spend a little bit of time to fix this. How hard would it be to open up a database and add an extra entry to a data field for Guardian Weapons so that the Oathbound Paladin can use them?

charononus

banegrivm wrote: »

I had heard April from a friend of mine who had looked it up. Although we will see when we will see, but I still cannot imagine why they could not spend a little bit of time to fix this. How hard would it be to open up a database and add an extra entry to a data field for Guardian Weapons so that the Oathbound Paladin can use them?

Possibly very. I haven't looked to see how weapon damage translates between OP maces and GF swords but most other weapons in the game have different ranges for different classes. (at least slightly) So if OP maces and GF swords have different ranges you're going to get a situation where the two will be imbalanced without going thru and copying each entry to make a GF and OP version, balancing the OP version etc. That may not be complicated work to change that all in the database but it would take time. Time I'm 100% convinced they don't have.

banegrivm

charononus wrote: »

Possibly very. I haven't looked to see how weapon damage translates between OP maces and GF swords but most other weapons in the game have different ranges for different classes. (at least slightly) So if OP maces and GF swords have different ranges you're going to get a situation where the two will be imbalanced without going thru and copying each entry to make a GF and OP version, balancing the OP version etc. That may not be complicated work to change that all in the database but it would take time. Time I'm 100% convinced they don't have.

I got the idea for shared weapons originally after seeing the shared armors in game. When I got a sword for my level that was a guardian fighters and I compared it to the mace I was using, the damage was the same. The stats were comparable to what I was using, just different, as weapons often are. So then I thought, if we are sharing armors already then why not share weapons? It seemed like a sensible solution that would make everyone happy across the board. Then everyone gets what they want.

charononus

banegrivm wrote: »

I got the idea for shared weapons originally after seeing the shared armors in game. When I got a sword for my level that was a guardian fighters and I compared it to the mace I was using, the damage was the same. The stats were comparable to what I was using, just different, as weapons often are. So then I thought, if we are sharing armors already then why not share weapons? It seemed like a sensible solution that would make everyone happy across the board. Then everyone gets what they want.

If that is true, it may not be that bad, I have however seen gross mismatches before though, that's where my concern over the time needed to do this comes from.

lorgrius

The simple fix is weapon sharing. Shared weapon damage number would then be one less nob the dev can ghange for balancing the two classes. I can understand their hesitation with that.

Mace is iconic cleric weapon in dnd.

Longsword is iconic paladin weapon in dnd books and art.

Someone pointed out Stronheart in the old dnd comic used a hammer. A hammer is not a Mace. Action figure still came with longsword. I would not object to Hammers, Axes, and Flails being put into the game. Heck I welcome the new mace skins. But paladins in dnd are longsword wielders.

Given how the dev point to the dnd rulebooks for sorces of what could come next and parternship with wizards in planning content over multiple platforms (which is really cool) I know that the Devs would have know which weapon is iconic for which class. Which makes the mace desicion all the more puzzeling to an old time player of dnd.

rabbinicus

I'd very much like to see weapon sharing. On preview there is already some equipment sharing between GF's and OP's, I'd like to see that extended. I'd also like to see options for armor sharing between DC's and GWF's, as well as TR's, HR's, and SW's. It would certainly allow for an increased diversity of builds and appearances.

rabbinicus

lorgrius wrote: »

Someone pointed out Stronheart in the old dnd comic used a hammer. A hammer is not a Mace. Action figure still came with longsword.

Yes, and I pointed out all of those things.

Really it was more of a broadsword, but that's functionally irrelevant here.

sockmunkey

Here is how you solve the problem. We simply go old school D&D, rename the Paladin to Cavalier and just give them a shield only, no weapon. I mean it worked in the cartoon, right? And we already have Rangers with magic bows with infinite magic arrows, and invisible thieves.

Its not like Paladin will do any real damage anyhow with or without a weapon.

banegrivm

I think Strongheart the Paladin had a longsword in the D&D Cartoon and also in AC1 Shady Dragon Inn where the character is introduced along with characters like Warduke and Kellik.

kieshen

If this game is based on D&D then by what stretch of the imagination did a Dev think Mace and Paladin would work? As an old school D&D player of the cleric Class this is insulting. I don't understand why you guys just don't give Palies Broadswords or Hand and a Half Swords? You can make them look bigger than the GF Long Swords, but Smaller than the GWF 2 handers.

Oh well, I won't be playing the Cleric in Paly clothing class anytime soon. But thank god you guys got the ranger right, LOVE that class!!!!!

grimah

swords i see as everyman's weapon. it's just as "iconic" for any other class can use, even mages going around with a sword works fine.

Mace i would say fits paladin fine, but a hammer or flail would have been more ideal (onehanded wise)

Flails/morning star i could see being a bit more difficult to model, due to all the moving parts.

Swords are just over-used in everything so i dont know why people want them so much, its why alot of the GF's transmute their swords to them awesome spears.

banegrivm

grimah wrote: »

swords i see as everyman's weapon. it's just as "iconic" for any other class can use, even mages going around with a sword works fine.

Mace i would say fits paladin fine, but a hammer or flail would have been more ideal (onehanded wise)

Flails/morning star i could see being a bit more difficult to model, due to all the moving parts.

Swords are just over-used in everything so i dont know why people want them so much, its why alot of the GF's transmute their swords to them awesome spears.

We want swords because they are "iconic" for paladins. It's what you see paladins using, not maces. That's why. It's what WE like. We the people who will spend money on the game for what we like or not spend money on the game because we don't like something. To be honest I've had a hard time even logging into test as of late because this irks me. Before the other thread got modded there were some 25+ pages and every page seemed to have something on it by people not liking maces for paladins.

charononus

banegrivm wrote: »

Before the other thread got modded there were some 25+ pages and every page seemed to have something on it by people not liking maces for paladins.

Yeah but that was the same 3 or 4 people screaming "NO" and then everyone else trying to calm them down before they had a heart attack.

hercules125

Seems like no matter what they do, it's going to stomp on someone's toes.

If they go with sword and board, then they look like a GF.
2 hand sword looks like a GWF.
The mace makes me think of a cleric.

Personally, in similar games, I've always preferred the 2 hander over sword and board. Maybe they could replace the shield with something else non-visual, and go with 2 handed great hammers? At the very least, they could replace the mace with a hammer.

banegrivm

charononus wrote: »

Yeah but that was the same 3 or 4 people screaming "NO" and then everyone else trying to calm them down before they had a heart attack.

I can't say I agree with that, but I also don't have a problem agreeing to disagree either. Also to the other fellow I don't see anything wrong with sword and shield. That's classic paladin right there. Personally I always thought it odd that the game launched with not one but TWO fighter classes and no paladin. They could have just as easily made a paladin tank class not too unlike what they are doing right now.

emilemo

hercules125 wrote: »

Seems like no matter what they do, it's going to stomp on someone's toes.

If they go with sword and board, then they look like a GF.
2 hand sword looks like a GWF.
The mace makes me think of a cleric.

Personally, in similar games, I've always preferred the 2 hander over sword and board. Maybe they could replace the shield with something else non-visual, and go with 2 handed great hammers? At the very least, they could replace the mace with a hammer.

There is a certain russian free-to-play MMO where the Paladin can choose between 1Hweapon + shield or a 2Hweapon and could equip pretty much any weapon. One of the best Pally incarnations in a video game imo. So the options could've been provided if the devs werent so lazy on design and coding.. or maybe they are just underpaid. And they will be paid even less when more and more folks refuse to continue financing Neverwinter. STO is already comatose.

Just look at the changes on Preview, all the new power ups ( pure & transcendent enchants, rank12s etc ) mean nothing in PVE. PVE will never need you in rank12s or pure Terror to complete anything. So the changes are for PVP even tho the devs state Neverwinter is primarily a PVE game with some PVP... Yet they create content focused on PVP which only the so called 'whales' can afford anyhow and count on the human ego to drive people to spend real money and gear up a toon to current bis for PVP... its freakin' sad is what it is 'cause I could've found a longterm gaming 'home' here with reasonable spending. I just dont to see it anymore