Amen to that. If a piece of gear is an improvement to what you have, you need. If not, you greed. That's how it's done in DnD if you can't share profits. It's called social play, something not many people in this game have heard of or wish to get involved with. It's all about greed these days. /legit shouldn't even have to exist in my opinion. Unfortunately it's a necessity in this community.
Maybe we're indeed getting too old for this stuff.
It's just a bad setup for an mmo. The only word I have for putting boe epics in a need/greed system is stupid. It was a choice that was inevitable to cause these problems/threads. This whole thing is on Cryptic. I'd much rather have them all btcoa which would let need/greed work, since we don't have that the best solution is greed runs.
Yes I was being overly harsh. Perhaps overly so, but in my experience in PnP we ALWAYS divided up the loot based on who could make the best use of any items (need) before selling them off (and the party splitting the proceeds). Since we don't have any common loot proceeds to split in MMOs we end up with "greed" roles. I'm totally fine with that as it all "balances out" or is it least up to fate (good ol' RNG) in the end.
"Greed only" runs to me means if an item of equipement drops that only I could use (and don't already have better!) then that item that would help me contribute to further parties is likely going to go to someone who is just going to sell it for personal profit. Lame. Smacks entirely of the entitlement "Me" generation. It's all about the "immediate" profit. cf. Marshmallow Test.
Which is why this game is also circling the drain -- PWE focus on sucking as much Zen as possible, as fast as possible, longevity be damned.
I'm just an old <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> that prefers "the many" over "the one."
You cant compare PnP with this. PnP is like guild runs, you know each other and help each other out. This is running with total strangers. The problem is, that 'needed' items are not BoP. When gear was worth up to 1 million AD and someone 'needed' the item, he SOLD it and got his gear from epic T 2 runs, like everybody else.
With a smaller community or more difficult content, ppl could police themself. I played another MMORPG for years (ca.2000 ppl at endlevel on my server and 500 who could run T2 dungeons). You had to build teams and coordinate over TS to win. If you ninjaed there, you could stop playing or change the server bc. you never found another group.
Here I got thousands of griefers, ninja looters, spammers etc. on ignore and you will meet new ones every day.
Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Greed only runs are for a-holes that want to make a profit at the expense of someone else who needs and can actually use an item. If you only agree to do "greed only runs" you are a worthless piece of human trash (IMHO). Period.
PnP does not have player driven market, you can not compare those.
PnP does not balance item prices with class preference and class popularity, it also will not bind stuff or will have altrnate sources of bound and unbound items of the same type..
I wish that people that argued for need and claim it's "at the expense" will compare how many runs it will take to gear a new level 60 character of all classes from nothing to t2 items, armor and weapon enchant (lets say normal enchants).
While less relevant now due to Tiamat, at the time greed runs were common it took less runs and time to gear with greed all than need all for most classes and was equal. (assuming people did the smart thing and sold the unbound set items that were worth up to 1mil and bought the c-wards or enchants)
You are welcome to search older topics or even my own posts, i detailed the number of runs and prices on few occasions for several classes.
mod 0-3 TR/DC/GF (iirc the prices and balance) would have geared more than twice as fast with all greed than all need, CW slower, but all would have the same average number of runs and not like with all need when some classes could have run hundreds of t2 and still not make enough AD for their enchant.
So please, make sure you actually notice the "H" in the IMHO when you use the language above.
Or/And consider that perhaps not everyone trying to rob blind the new player while having all their gear
Some give new players gear worth a lot of AD and pass the loot all together, but will still insist to play all greed for some reasons, and perhaps those reasons have merit.
And more so the Irony in the marshmallow test is that, it is exactly the need !
All greed have longer outlook on things time wise, need all is the immediate gratification that will loose on the long run ( you will get the set fast, but loose on the more important part, the weapon armor enchants vs greed runs)
It is quite hilarious to see a buncha grown men creating excuses as to why they should steal. "It's not in the game ToS", "I don't have to follow the rules I agreed to", "I need AD". Hysterical, actually.
I suppose you both have a point.........
... And unfortunately it's not even just in NW.
I can completely agree that people became toxic, not willing to help unless it's worth while for them and obnoxious behavior generally, especially the language people use. I think it comes out from the relativity of anonymity and large player base, people do not care for their 'reputation' or to be shamed, they will never meet the player they were rude to or stole from again or just do not care as there no repercussions or just do not care. A childish, thuggish behavior that should not be tolerated.
But again IMO, this is not the issue of greed/need, this is not the first time for this discussion and we will probably agree to disagree but at the end it is not about sentiment, willingness to help or emotions.
But, imo, a simple math: what is more fair ? And especially, what will be more fair for the new/gearing player? And imo, the greed runs are fairer and actually the need are those that take (took, not as relevant now) from those players their chance to make profit and gear faster.
If everyone can need an item you might as well all choose need.
well, that is the de facto system that a lot of people follow, as everyone in this thread already knew. The real debate here is about what is wrong (or not wrong) with that system, and what can/should be done better, either socially by players or in game mechanics by devs.
imo, the best option is still for the devs to make need rolls bind any item in question to character on pickup, thus creating a real reason for some people to choose greed over need, and theoretically making "need" and "greed" fit what they say. I doubt that will happen, but one can dream.
I can completely agree that people became toxic, not willing to help unless it's worth while for them and obnoxious behavior generally, especially the language people use. I think it comes out from the relativity of anonymity and large player base, people do not care for their 'reputation' or to be shamed, they will never meet the player they were rude to or stole from again or just do not care as there no repercussions or just do not care. A childish, thuggish behavior that should not be tolerated.
I think you darn near hit the nail on the head here. There are virtually no game systems (either in code or in GMs) set up to keep such behavior in check. these kinds of people are so incredibly prolific that there are no effective social checks by the players themselves except to devolve into that system or make their own comparitively limited communities (ie guilds) out of what few like-minded individuals we can find.
This is 90% of why I refuse nearly any group and primarily solo in Neverwinter, when I play at all.
Blah blah blah blah. Its a very simple solution. Take the greed function away, just add need or pass, and make the items you need BOA. Then you will get rid of most of the (return of investment players) that can ruin a game with the polluted kicking.
No more disagreement between need or greed, if the item is meant for its class they can get it without worry of being verbally abused and kick by players. It would make running dungeons fun, meaning if you want an item you have to play for it, not buy it for cheap from the AH.
Making the items you pick up is BOA, but still salvageable, when you get an upgraded item, you can then just salvage or keep your old stuff. Then improve the drop ratio a bit by % for the BOA items across the board, that including rp's to make it viable for everyone to benefit from it.
Oh, another newly opened, greed/need disscussion. Actually I never understand the idea behind this system from the beginning.
If I were a developer, I would make a virtual dice and pass option. Player with bigger number gets the item. If he doesn't want that item then he can choose pass.
Simple and easy. No need to think whether it is need or greed run, who said what etc...Life is simple, but human nature is too complex.
In other MMOs I've played a need/greed system would have worked fine. As for NW.. looking back on it now, I think you're right. That, or personal drops would have been better for this game and the "me first, eff the rest" attitude that this community displays in-game.
It's just a dam shame that a game based on one of the most social multiplayer games in the world is subject to such a selfish attitude by its players.
Well here's the deal. In days past, mmo's were far more niche than they are now. They had smaller populations that centered around guilds. Ninja'ing behavior even in pugs was met with blacklisting etc. The population is bigger, there are random queue's, etc in mmo's now and so that kind of community policing just doesn't work anymore. You combine that with the mistakes cryptic made in loot design and you get where we are now.
I have never understood the Greed roll vs the Need roll, just make it need and everyone is on the same level.
You can't need cross class gear. If you could all need would be simpler as everyone would be on the same page, it would almost be the same as roll/pass.
You can't need cross class gear. If you could all need would be simpler as everyone would be on the same page, it would almost be the same as roll/pass.
People would hate the ones needing on bop for salvage
People would hate the ones needing on bop for salvage
Yeah still has some problems but closer to roll/pass than what we have. I really dislike the mess that has been made of the loot system with boe binding. need/greed just doesn't work for boe loot. The only thing that works with boe is individual loot. But here we are and no matter what there will be some problems. Any potential solution will be a matter of is there going to be less problem cases than before. Because BoP is limited to a couple dungeons I think this would provide less, though nothing here is perfect.
It's funny that the old loot system where you could need anything would actually be more fitting now considering that virtually no progressive gear is BoE nowadays and everything valuable can be needed by anyone anyway.
This thread perfectly illustrates the problem with any player-driven loot rules.
Over time the details of the rule change and morph, such that one person's "greed-only" rule may not quite be the same as another person's. So even if you do ask about the rule at the start of a run you may still fall foul of differing interpretations unless you spend way too long dissecting the local by-laws before getting down to playing the game.
I don't run with PUGs very often but when I do so I entirely ignore any loot rules and do whatever I please. If someone wants to kick me because of their narrow-minded view of how I should be playing the game then that is up to them. It's not like it's real. Some of the more over-heated folk in this thread maybe need to remember that. <shrug>
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alex1essMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2015
And this is why i never bother with greed only runs unless i at least partially know the people. No player-made honour system survives the rare drop. Someone is almost always going to break. And since the game does not punish them for it... I can understand why.
Those kind of systems maybe worked back in old WoW where you had a smaller pool of people stuck on one server and behaving like a a-hat lead to you not doing any more dungeons.
Now i would also prefer personal loot but that is not in this game so we have to do the best of the situation. Best here being not applying a lot of artificial systems that at best 1/3 of the user base have even heard about.
Though perhaps with a bit less virulence, I share the same opinion as eldarth. When I started doing endgame and people both in pugs or guild were suddenly upset that I had rolled need for a piece of gear that was an improvement that nobody else would use, I found it a bit off-putting. I could go on multiple runs and receive nothing and have all improvement gear drop. In a pug it's just annoying, but with guildies it's almost worse sometimes as I never improve and guildmates just salvage the gear for ad. I come from another mmo where we used to assign loot based on need and then rng/spread after we worked on improving each member of the guild. Here guilds are half-social and nice for patient dungeon runs but there's very little sense of community.
In my current guild, I once got a drop in a dungeon that I didn't need (from a greed roll), and I offered it in chat to folks who might want it for free. Instead of anyone stepping up for the item, I was met with incredulous remarks like I was going to commit suicide or something (why would I give something away for free!!???). I've gone through numerous guilds with similarly held beliefs. Generosity was treated as bizarre.
I find it personally leads to an interesting dynamic in myself when I need selfishly on gear for myself if it improves me. I also think about friends/guildies/others more and what they need too. Not saying that's human nature, just me. But I become a more aware, community-oriented person through contextual needing on epic gear etc. If everything is greed, I don't think about what others need, only my luck with the rng, and my personal drive to help others gets diminished as well.
Love yourself, and focus on the rest of the madness of life later.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Though perhaps with a bit less virulence, I share the same opinion as eldarth. When I started doing endgame and people both in pugs or guild were suddenly upset that I had rolled need for a piece of gear that was an improvement that nobody else would use, I found it a bit off-putting. I could go on multiple runs and receive nothing and have all improvement gear drop. In a pug it's just annoying, but with guildies it's almost worse sometimes as I never improve and guildmates just salvage the gear for ad. I come from another mmo where we used to assign loot based on need and then rng/spread after we worked on improving each member of the guild. Here guilds are half-social and nice for patient dungeon runs but there's very little sense of community.
In my current guild, I once got a drop in a dungeon that I didn't need (from a greed roll), and I offered it in chat to folks who might want it for free. Instead of anyone stepping up for the item, I was met with incredulous remarks like I was going to commit suicide or something (why would I give something away for free!!???). I've gone through numerous guilds with similarly held beliefs. Generosity was treated as bizarre.
I find it personally leads to an interesting dynamic in myself when I need selfishly on gear for myself if it improves me. I also think about friends/guildies/others more and what they need too. Not saying that's human nature, just me. But I become a more aware, community-oriented person through contextual needing on epic gear etc. If everything is greed, I don't think about what others need, only my luck with the rng, and my personal drive to help others gets diminished as well.
Sorry, but this calls for a quick guild change.
The greed and need should be in perspective, some time ago (the good old times) the t2 set items cost a lot, up to a million or more AD, you will never wear them even if they were an upgrade because they are worth much more to sell and progress your other gear as weapon enchants. At the same time there is a chance to get a bound version of the same set from the DD chest.
It worth nothing as AD, but sought after a lot by people that tried to gear themselves.
All the rest of the items that drop in the middle of the dungeon are not relevant, and i personally will prefer "all greed" just for the ease of pressing shift+2 or shift+3 and not start looking if this is need or greed or what, much simpler key spam wise.
This is the basis of some loot agreements and assumptions behind the what is fair or not.
And said so, I never saw that if someone asks for one of those items that are not t2 set, either as improvement, transmute, collections or any reason at all, and was refused. More so if a person asks to need something that is an improvement for him before hand, I've never seen it refused or was an issue at all, friends/guild don't even need to ask, just need it, and do whatever with it (they know the value and wont do so unless it's fair and reasonable).
But and there is a but and it's the t2 set mentioned above. If a person wants to need on a t2 set drop he should offer to compensate the others (or reach an arrangement, for guild or people you play with it shouldn't be an issue), because the high vazier tunic you are going to bind can be the normal vorpal your fellow guild TR want to buy if he won it, and you do not have the patience or time to wait for the DD chest drop. (for context HV tunic was about 800k - 1mil AD while TR swash about 200k)
In this context, I believe it goes both sides, guilds & friends should help to gear or try to help the best they can, that's large part of being in a guild, and the other way, a person must understand that there is a value for items beyond the simple improvement of what a person wearing a and not always just binding and item that is better than what you have is the 'smart thing' to do or fair to the other people that did with you the dungeon.
Guilds can help in many ways, usually the common way is to carry a geared person quickly and efficiently to get that DD chest so he/she can gear up quickly.
The are split runs (notable was CN), and about generosity being bizarre btw, in many split runs i was, geared people passed on their share or just passed on the item so poorer people can gear up faster.
bottom line, loot rules are general, and if the guild is not flexible enough to help you or explain the item worth and how best use that worth, it's a problem.
As someone that was guild officer and certain channels moderator and owner i can tell you that if you unsatisfied in a guild due to that, but wont voice your concern nothing will change and you only will be frustrated as will be others with you..not knowing why.. attitude reflects..
And at the end if it was explained to you why not binding a 1 mil worth of a tunic for example is usually more beneficial for everyone even that it will set back your personal gearing but you still do not agree, it's probably a good time to search like minded people anyway.
small edit to the long wall of text :
All said above is not relevant due to the great goddess named Tiamat. It's more of explanation of historical reasons,
today it's just buy whatever on AH... (unfortunately as most people do not do dungeons)
sorry if i mess up what i'm trying to write, english is a third language for me.
The greed run was invented for purple equipment witch not everyone can need. It is both stupid and against the initial purpose of the rule to greed a mark.
I agree. IMO, rings, belts and neck should be need also, but I understand some people get confused.
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grobb1Member, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 34
edited February 2015
haha i remeber my first greed run i joined as a DC, unknowingly joined. My DC was super poorly equipped and an upgrade for me dropped. After i *needed* for it certain people had a fit and i was totally lost on the idea that if it is an upgrade for me why should i put myself in a situation where someone else who wont even wear it can take before me.
I understand this is a AD grind to most people and i understand the greediness yet i still dont respect greed runs. Dont join them and you wont have to worry... hit the need button like a boss- if the greedy people cant respect that then forget them but i do like the greed button as a way of saying *meh, if no one else wants it ill take it*
sorry if i mess up what i'm trying to write, english is a third language for me.
forgive the momentary off topic reply, but I just want to say that for a third language, you type english better than most people for whom english is their first/only language.
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urlord283Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,084Arc User
Yeah still has some problems but closer to roll/pass than what we have. I really dislike the mess that has been made of the loot system with boe binding. need/greed just doesn't work for boe loot. The only thing that works with boe is individual loot. But here we are and no matter what there will be some problems. Any potential solution will be a matter of is there going to be less problem cases than before. Because BoP is limited to a couple dungeons I think this would provide less, though nothing here is perfect.
The thing I fear is if it was to become the norm. Though it may have shifted from bop from bosses to bop from the chest if kessels retreat, lostmauth and tiamat are any indicator. Though I still hate bop.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
edited February 2015
Hello for the poeple say about is gear improvement that why must need the item dont forget chests drop the same item.
i only accept the must "need" if wasnt there a chest.
And also how i can know if the person really need the item? can you guarantee me if in his bank have 10 draconic helmets or not?
So this is the rules as I perceive them:
* All marks and enchants -> need
* All purple gear -> greed (even if you actually need it.. currently nobody really need stuff since it is so cheap on AH)
* All blue stuff -> need
This is by far the most commonly used loot mechanic in the game and has been for some time. Also, the most common loot form in CN is to need everything until Drako since every class can use it.
That being said, I have been in a group where people got up in arms for a need roll on a rank 4 enchant....
If the group leader asks to greed enchants/whatever, then keep an eye on what everyone is rolling (need/greed) before you roll. If everyone seems to be waiting to see what everyone else it going to do then go ahead and click greed.
You are both incorrect, of course. The common sense is to follow the rule. Everybody can steal, it doesn't make it right.
I am with this person. Just because this is the internet doesn't mean you can throw your morals out the window. If you won't steal things in real life then DON'T DO IT IN A VIDEO GAME to other real people. NPCs I'll steal from all day (looking at you Skyrim), but they aren't real.
Everyone online should treat people the way they would treat them face to face. If you're an ***** in real life though, I can't help you.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
... Tired of running dungeons with exploiters and cheaters? Join the legit channel by visiting http://goo.gl/1zfnTS to apply!
Performing ritual pony sacrifices to Tiamat to earn favor with the RNG Gods since 2014.
...
Comments
It's just a bad setup for an mmo. The only word I have for putting boe epics in a need/greed system is stupid. It was a choice that was inevitable to cause these problems/threads. This whole thing is on Cryptic. I'd much rather have them all btcoa which would let need/greed work, since we don't have that the best solution is greed runs.
You cant compare PnP with this. PnP is like guild runs, you know each other and help each other out. This is running with total strangers. The problem is, that 'needed' items are not BoP. When gear was worth up to 1 million AD and someone 'needed' the item, he SOLD it and got his gear from epic T 2 runs, like everybody else.
With a smaller community or more difficult content, ppl could police themself. I played another MMORPG for years (ca.2000 ppl at endlevel on my server and 500 who could run T2 dungeons). You had to build teams and coordinate over TS to win. If you ninjaed there, you could stop playing or change the server bc. you never found another group.
Here I got thousands of griefers, ninja looters, spammers etc. on ignore and you will meet new ones every day.
PnP does not have player driven market, you can not compare those.
PnP does not balance item prices with class preference and class popularity, it also will not bind stuff or will have altrnate sources of bound and unbound items of the same type..
I wish that people that argued for need and claim it's "at the expense" will compare how many runs it will take to gear a new level 60 character of all classes from nothing to t2 items, armor and weapon enchant (lets say normal enchants).
While less relevant now due to Tiamat, at the time greed runs were common it took less runs and time to gear with greed all than need all for most classes and was equal. (assuming people did the smart thing and sold the unbound set items that were worth up to 1mil and bought the c-wards or enchants)
You are welcome to search older topics or even my own posts, i detailed the number of runs and prices on few occasions for several classes.
mod 0-3 TR/DC/GF (iirc the prices and balance) would have geared more than twice as fast with all greed than all need, CW slower, but all would have the same average number of runs and not like with all need when some classes could have run hundreds of t2 and still not make enough AD for their enchant.
So please, make sure you actually notice the "H" in the IMHO when you use the language above.
Or/And consider that perhaps not everyone trying to rob blind the new player while having all their gear
Some give new players gear worth a lot of AD and pass the loot all together, but will still insist to play all greed for some reasons, and perhaps those reasons have merit.
And more so the Irony in the marshmallow test is that, it is exactly the need !
All greed have longer outlook on things time wise, need all is the immediate gratification that will loose on the long run ( you will get the set fast, but loose on the more important part, the weapon armor enchants vs greed runs)
I can completely agree that people became toxic, not willing to help unless it's worth while for them and obnoxious behavior generally, especially the language people use. I think it comes out from the relativity of anonymity and large player base, people do not care for their 'reputation' or to be shamed, they will never meet the player they were rude to or stole from again or just do not care as there no repercussions or just do not care. A childish, thuggish behavior that should not be tolerated.
But again IMO, this is not the issue of greed/need, this is not the first time for this discussion and we will probably agree to disagree but at the end it is not about sentiment, willingness to help or emotions.
But, imo, a simple math: what is more fair ? And especially, what will be more fair for the new/gearing player? And imo, the greed runs are fairer and actually the need are those that take (took, not as relevant now) from those players their chance to make profit and gear faster.
No, a purple-coloured item is still an epic, mark or not. If you cannot grasp that simple logic, don't go outside.
well, that is the de facto system that a lot of people follow, as everyone in this thread already knew. The real debate here is about what is wrong (or not wrong) with that system, and what can/should be done better, either socially by players or in game mechanics by devs.
imo, the best option is still for the devs to make need rolls bind any item in question to character on pickup, thus creating a real reason for some people to choose greed over need, and theoretically making "need" and "greed" fit what they say. I doubt that will happen, but one can dream.
If greed on epic was agreed, you are right. Most ppl dont take time to elaborate, what greed run is for them.
I have seen ALL greed runs, including enchants etc.
I have seen greed on epic
and (most common imo) greed on epic class gear, everything else need.
If someone asks for greed run, make sure, your definition af greed is the same as his.
I think you darn near hit the nail on the head here. There are virtually no game systems (either in code or in GMs) set up to keep such behavior in check. these kinds of people are so incredibly prolific that there are no effective social checks by the players themselves except to devolve into that system or make their own comparitively limited communities (ie guilds) out of what few like-minded individuals we can find.
This is 90% of why I refuse nearly any group and primarily solo in Neverwinter, when I play at all.
No more disagreement between need or greed, if the item is meant for its class they can get it without worry of being verbally abused and kick by players. It would make running dungeons fun, meaning if you want an item you have to play for it, not buy it for cheap from the AH.
Making the items you pick up is BOA, but still salvageable, when you get an upgraded item, you can then just salvage or keep your old stuff. Then improve the drop ratio a bit by % for the BOA items across the board, that including rp's to make it viable for everyone to benefit from it.
If I were a developer, I would make a virtual dice and pass option. Player with bigger number gets the item. If he doesn't want that item then he can choose pass.
Simple and easy. No need to think whether it is need or greed run, who said what etc...Life is simple, but human nature is too complex.
Well here's the deal. In days past, mmo's were far more niche than they are now. They had smaller populations that centered around guilds. Ninja'ing behavior even in pugs was met with blacklisting etc. The population is bigger, there are random queue's, etc in mmo's now and so that kind of community policing just doesn't work anymore. You combine that with the mistakes cryptic made in loot design and you get where we are now.
People would hate the ones needing on bop for salvage
Over time the details of the rule change and morph, such that one person's "greed-only" rule may not quite be the same as another person's. So even if you do ask about the rule at the start of a run you may still fall foul of differing interpretations unless you spend way too long dissecting the local by-laws before getting down to playing the game.
I don't run with PUGs very often but when I do so I entirely ignore any loot rules and do whatever I please. If someone wants to kick me because of their narrow-minded view of how I should be playing the game then that is up to them. It's not like it's real. Some of the more over-heated folk in this thread maybe need to remember that. <shrug>
Those kind of systems maybe worked back in old WoW where you had a smaller pool of people stuck on one server and behaving like a a-hat lead to you not doing any more dungeons.
Now i would also prefer personal loot but that is not in this game so we have to do the best of the situation. Best here being not applying a lot of artificial systems that at best 1/3 of the user base have even heard about.
In my current guild, I once got a drop in a dungeon that I didn't need (from a greed roll), and I offered it in chat to folks who might want it for free. Instead of anyone stepping up for the item, I was met with incredulous remarks like I was going to commit suicide or something (why would I give something away for free!!???). I've gone through numerous guilds with similarly held beliefs. Generosity was treated as bizarre.
I find it personally leads to an interesting dynamic in myself when I need selfishly on gear for myself if it improves me. I also think about friends/guildies/others more and what they need too. Not saying that's human nature, just me. But I become a more aware, community-oriented person through contextual needing on epic gear etc. If everything is greed, I don't think about what others need, only my luck with the rng, and my personal drive to help others gets diminished as well.
Sorry, but this calls for a quick guild change.
The greed and need should be in perspective, some time ago (the good old times) the t2 set items cost a lot, up to a million or more AD, you will never wear them even if they were an upgrade because they are worth much more to sell and progress your other gear as weapon enchants. At the same time there is a chance to get a bound version of the same set from the DD chest.
It worth nothing as AD, but sought after a lot by people that tried to gear themselves.
All the rest of the items that drop in the middle of the dungeon are not relevant, and i personally will prefer "all greed" just for the ease of pressing shift+2 or shift+3 and not start looking if this is need or greed or what, much simpler key spam wise.
This is the basis of some loot agreements and assumptions behind the what is fair or not.
And said so, I never saw that if someone asks for one of those items that are not t2 set, either as improvement, transmute, collections or any reason at all, and was refused. More so if a person asks to need something that is an improvement for him before hand, I've never seen it refused or was an issue at all, friends/guild don't even need to ask, just need it, and do whatever with it (they know the value and wont do so unless it's fair and reasonable).
But and there is a but and it's the t2 set mentioned above. If a person wants to need on a t2 set drop he should offer to compensate the others (or reach an arrangement, for guild or people you play with it shouldn't be an issue), because the high vazier tunic you are going to bind can be the normal vorpal your fellow guild TR want to buy if he won it, and you do not have the patience or time to wait for the DD chest drop. (for context HV tunic was about 800k - 1mil AD while TR swash about 200k)
In this context, I believe it goes both sides, guilds & friends should help to gear or try to help the best they can, that's large part of being in a guild, and the other way, a person must understand that there is a value for items beyond the simple improvement of what a person wearing a and not always just binding and item that is better than what you have is the 'smart thing' to do or fair to the other people that did with you the dungeon.
Guilds can help in many ways, usually the common way is to carry a geared person quickly and efficiently to get that DD chest so he/she can gear up quickly.
The are split runs (notable was CN), and about generosity being bizarre btw, in many split runs i was, geared people passed on their share or just passed on the item so poorer people can gear up faster.
bottom line, loot rules are general, and if the guild is not flexible enough to help you or explain the item worth and how best use that worth, it's a problem.
As someone that was guild officer and certain channels moderator and owner i can tell you that if you unsatisfied in a guild due to that, but wont voice your concern nothing will change and you only will be frustrated as will be others with you..not knowing why.. attitude reflects..
And at the end if it was explained to you why not binding a 1 mil worth of a tunic for example is usually more beneficial for everyone even that it will set back your personal gearing but you still do not agree, it's probably a good time to search like minded people anyway.
small edit to the long wall of text :
All said above is not relevant due to the great goddess named Tiamat. It's more of explanation of historical reasons,
today it's just buy whatever on AH... (unfortunately as most people do not do dungeons)
sorry if i mess up what i'm trying to write, english is a third language for me.
I agree. IMO, rings, belts and neck should be need also, but I understand some people get confused.
I understand this is a AD grind to most people and i understand the greediness yet i still dont respect greed runs. Dont join them and you wont have to worry... hit the need button like a boss- if the greedy people cant respect that then forget them but i do like the greed button as a way of saying *meh, if no one else wants it ill take it*
forgive the momentary off topic reply, but I just want to say that for a third language, you type english better than most people for whom english is their first/only language.
these are my thoughts
people do the wrong things
how do you guess when
urlord
The thing I fear is if it was to become the norm. Though it may have shifted from bop from bosses to bop from the chest if kessels retreat, lostmauth and tiamat are any indicator. Though I still hate bop.
i only accept the must "need" if wasnt there a chest.
And also how i can know if the person really need the item? can you guarantee me if in his bank have 10 draconic helmets or not?
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
This is by far the most commonly used loot mechanic in the game and has been for some time. Also, the most common loot form in CN is to need everything until Drako since every class can use it.
That being said, I have been in a group where people got up in arms for a need roll on a rank 4 enchant....
If the group leader asks to greed enchants/whatever, then keep an eye on what everyone is rolling (need/greed) before you roll. If everyone seems to be waiting to see what everyone else it going to do then go ahead and click greed.
I am with this person. Just because this is the internet doesn't mean you can throw your morals out the window. If you won't steal things in real life then DON'T DO IT IN A VIDEO GAME to other real people. NPCs I'll steal from all day (looking at you Skyrim), but they aren't real.
Everyone online should treat people the way they would treat them face to face. If you're an ***** in real life though, I can't help you.
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Tired of running dungeons with exploiters and cheaters? Join the legit channel by visiting http://goo.gl/1zfnTS to apply!
Performing ritual pony sacrifices to Tiamat to earn favor with the RNG Gods since 2014.
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