Bind on Equip instead of Bind to Character on Acquire. BtCoA is the way every other mmo I've seen that uses need vs greed handles epics. (With rare exceptions, that usually cause drama, just like the drama here)
Ok, still, the question stands: need is an advantage for those that can use the gear. why should they ignore that advantage? everyone has some advantages because everyone has specific gear he could need, so it's still balanced, isn't it?
Ok, still, the question stands: need is an advantage for those that can use the gear. why should they ignore that advantage? everyone has some advantages because everyone has specific gear he could need, so it's still balanced, isn't it?
No it's not.
First of all, not all parties are rainbow parties, not all loot is worth the same, and not all dungeons drop an equal spread of gear.
Ok weighing in here. This is the way it is standard in all mmos ive played except apparently NW:
Need: I will use it, the item is an upgrade for me. salvage or currency value is irrelevant
greed: wouldn't mind having it for currency or salvage value
pass: don't care about it, go to town fellow party members
As far as I am concerned this is what they mean, and if anyone disagrees with me, I will consider them trolls and put them on ignore status.
If your running with a regular group these rules work fine. If you pug much that will get most of the population on your ignore list, & probably get you kicked from a lot of groups unless they agreed to it first. If your playing with pugs who haven't agreed to that, you might be best just rolling with everyone else and if you win give it to who needs it.
Sorry, im new to the game. I just need on what I think I need and greed on all I think I wanna have to sell. As I currently have few to none purples, I always need them. For my understanding, ›greed‹ is: "Hey girls, I'd just sell it, I have better gear than that, so I don't need it".
What's wrong with that?
As I understood:
Need: wanna have it for myself (that's why it cant be chosen for not-your-class items) Greed: well, would sell it because I got inventory free for it. Pass: not interested.
Isn't that the whole point of the 3-way-dialog?
The problem is this is not how it goes with the game mechanic. The fact about these 3 option is :
Need : wanna have it for myself or sell it ( since i got the item, i can do what i want..to sell it or own use) ..they cant roll it against me..system will prioritize my roll over them..with no other member with same class with me..its 100% success for me even if i roll 1..
Greed : i wanna share my chance with my party member..despite it being my class item and i can roll need.. also i can roll theirs as well..all fair and square
Quick note : If there are member in the party that roll need, system will eliminate those that roll greed, leaving those that roll need to compete the roll.
People just wanna have a fair loot run and equal chance for all. Thats why they run greed.
right... that's how it always worked, since they added - again at player request - to not allow players to roll on items they can't use. ie a wizard can't roll on a cleric hat, etc.
this is how it's been since I don't know, a year-and-half now? it's not broken, there is no problem. that's how it works. if you can use it, you can roll "need", if you can't use it, you are locked out of rolling "need". if it's a generic item with no class restrictions (ie a purple mark) then everyone can roll "need". I don't even know what else to say here......... it's not a difficult concept to understand, what exactly is the confusion again? #smf
Ok, still, the question stands: need is an advantage for those that can use the gear. why should they ignore that advantage? everyone has some advantages because everyone has specific gear he could need, so it's still balanced, isn't it?
Like charononus say..no...what if the party consist of 4 TR and 1 CW..and the whole dungeon run drop 1 TR item and 1 CW item..4 TR will fight for 1 item but the CW got his stuff unopposed..thats not very fair isnt it?
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
right... that's how it always worked, since they added - again at player request - to not allow players to roll on items they can't use. ie a wizard can't roll on a cleric hat, etc.
And this was because of drama during beta when everyone was levelling their first characters. People complaining about losing the roll on items they wanted to equip to people who wanted them to sell. Not even epic gear... just the drops in normal dungeons.
right... that's how it always worked, since they added - again at player request - to not allow players to roll on items they can't use. ie a wizard can't roll on a cleric hat, etc.
this is how it's been since I don't know, a year-and-half now? it's not broken, there is no problem. that's how it works. if you can use it, you can roll "need", if you can't use it, you are locked out of rolling "need". if it's a generic item with no class restrictions (ie a purple mark) then everyone can roll "need". I don't even know what else to say here......... it's not a difficult concept to understand, what exactly is the confusion again? #smf
Pretty much..i strongly agree people to roll need when they know the item can be roll need by other member..and not just based on epic or not..its to prevent people from ninja it and prevent the kicking drama goin on in the party..
And this was because of drama during beta when everyone was levelling their first characters. People complaining about losing the roll on items they wanted to equip to people who wanted them to sell. Not even epic gear... just the drops in normal dungeons.
Not to mention the addition of keys and other changes make the game very different than it was in early beta.
Not to mention the addition of keys and other changes make the game very different than it was in early beta.
I'd say the biggest thing was the binding of chest items and giving you a choice of what to pick from the chest. Back then if you needed something, it wasn't a big loss to the team, afterwards the value of those items increased and so to need on it is taking more away from the team. If it was something people only ran to gear up, that wouldn't be a problem, but people rerun it to make AD. To deny them of that means that noone has any incentive to help others out and segregating the community.
If he's below me, he'd need things I'd greed and if he's above me, he'd greed things i'd need. What would be the benefit of a "greed-run" ?
Everyone has an equal 20% chance at the final "valuable loot".
Pretty simple concept really. This is why greed runs are a popular method of running.
But again, it all comes down to the party. ASK! COMMUNICATE! Maybe the party's consensus is to have a need run, then by all means go for it. There are positives to a need run as well (though in my personal opinion, it is inferior to a greed run just because you can't beat 20% equal chance).
Bind on Equip instead of Bind to Character on Acquire. BtCoA is the way every other mmo I've seen that uses need vs greed handles epics. (With rare exceptions, that usually cause drama, just like the drama here)
BtCoA ??? Don't think I've ever seen that abbreviation. Every other MMO I've seen everyone calls that BOP - Bind on Pickup.
BtCoA ??? Don't think I've ever seen that abbreviation. Every other MMO I've seen everyone calls that BOP - Bind on Pickup.
Used to ddo which had some stuff that bound really oddly so you sometimes needed to be really specific in if it bound, didn't bind, bound to character or account, and if it happened during pickup or equip.
Ok, still, the question stands: need is an advantage for those that can use the gear. why should they ignore that advantage? everyone has some advantages because everyone has specific gear he could need, so it's still balanced, isn't it?
No. Drops are a reward for running the dungeon, and if everyone contributes equally they deserve an equal chance at the share. You voluntarily enter an agreement(contract) and should abide by the rules. Noone cares what you want or what your character can or cannot equip. The world doesn't revolve around your perceived "wants".
No. Drops are a reward for running the dungeon, and if everyone contributes equally they deserve an equal chance at the share. You voluntarily enter an agreement(contract) and should abide by the rules.
Mathematically spoken from what I learned here: If there is every class in the game equally used, then chances are balanced that you get the gear you need because you have a global equally balanced chance to run into groups where you are needed. If one class is to much used, your chances get lower getting something you need, while the engine favors those who are in the minority. Still, items usable by anyone can be needed by all.
I'd still need what I need because that's how it is meant to be. And if i'm the only guardian fighter in a run and boss looses his ›Great Hat of Guardian Power‹, than for me that simply means: Crom wants me to wear a new hat, and I'd call it unfair if some WizardOfOz would just get it because he is lucky, simply because it was not meant for him. Perhaps next time, the engine will favour him with a ›Stick of the mighty Fireball‹ and that's OK for me.
And if some jackpot gives a joker of all classes item, everyone can need it and that's what I'd call fair, so i'll still need what I need and greed what I want to sell, giving anyone who is allowed to use it a better chance than me.
That's how i'll do it as long as no one comes up with a REALLY good argument. What I've read until here is just whining about someone not having the chance to get something to sell, which is clearly NOT my definition of having fun IN A GAME.
<snip>... so i'll still need what I need and greed what I want to sell, giving anyone who is allowed to use it a better chance than me.
That's how i'll do it as long as no one comes up with a REALLY good argument. What I've read until here is just whining about someone not having the chance to get something to sell, which is clearly NOT my definition of having fun IN A GAME.
I agree 100% but don't be surprised when the mob label you a ninja, a looter, a thief, a fraudster and then kick you and ban you and prosecute you in real life across several continents (no, really, stop sniggering at the back...) and all for choosing an option in a game that is working as the devs intended. Yes, working as the devs intended...
Anyone that demands you change your loot selections to suit them is not doing anything as noble as looking after the party. They are just selfishly trying to grab a piece of loot for their own selfish selves. Not that they can even agree on the exact rules anyway.
I agree 100% but don't be surprised when the mob label you a ninja, a looter, a thief, a fraudster and then kick you and ban you and prosecute you in real life across several continents (no, really, stop sniggering at the back...) and all for choosing an option in a game that is working as the devs intended. Yes, working as the devs intended...
The problem isn't choosing the option.
The problem is choosing the option AFTER agreeing to "greed only." In that case you are definitely an un-trustworthy liar at the very least. However, if the group did not pre-agree, absolutely - roll as intended.
No. Drops are a reward for running the dungeon, and if everyone contributes equally they deserve an equal chance at the share.
If my class item drops I should be able to need on it, and I should not get kicked from the group. It is still equality. If you run the instance more than once you will eventually get "your class item" which you roll need on, and you have achieved parity. Think long term.
If my class item drops I should be able to need on it, and I should not get kicked from the group.
You only get removed from the group for going against the pre-agreed upon need/greed run at the start because that might mean you are trying to steal the final loot.
Be sure to ask next time what type of run it is at the beginning.
If my class item drops I should be able to need on it, and I should not get kicked from the group. It is still equality. If you run the instance more than once you will eventually get "your class item" which you roll need on, and you have achieved parity. Think long term.
1) If you have someone else of the same class, you have less chance to win loot than others who are the only class on the team.
2) Each classes loot has a different value
3) If you already had said item, you'd be called greedy for needing it when you don't or when you'd sell it, but if need was the norm people would constantly do it because "i need ad"
Older content doesn't mean much, but if they redid the whole bop from chest boe as a drop, then you should run greed as a whole or form your own need groups.
Long term you keep getting newbies needing the loot so you get nothing of value for helping out. Whereas on a greed run you'd get it in a reasonable amount of time from the chest or can sell/trade the item you eventually win for the one you want. However that super expensive class item won't be just given to the guy who wants to play the shiny new class. Everyone worked for that expensive drop.
If my class item drops I should be able to need on it, and I should not get kicked from the group. It is still equality. If you run the instance more than once you will eventually get "your class item" which you roll need on, and you have achieved parity. Think long term.
Lets check your assumption of parity over long term, historically, mod 0 - mod 4 ( more than a year ):
lets assume 500 ToS runs with an armor drop rate of 5% = 25 drops total from the boss unbound.
we will examine only two classes, TR & CW, so we will reduce it and discard the rest of the classes drops and remain with 5 each.
Lets look at net gain of the most expansive drops:
CW - HV tunic average price 850k -> 5*850k = 4250k AD
TR - swash ~250k -> 5*250k = 1250k AD
But you will say, CW were OP, everyone stacked CW. NP, lets assume there were 2 of those, and we still get 2125k AD per CW, almost twice what the TR got.
so you're telling me if a CW item drops all the non-CWs in the group have just as much "right" to it? because they can SELL it??
bwhahah no wonder you get kicked from alot of groups bro. good luck there chief. good luck with that...
That's funny because I don't recall getting kicked a single time, but do recall other people kicking others for needing an item even when no rules have been stated. I don't really see what's so hard to understand. Everyone on average gets and equal chance for equal valued loot instead of that loot being lopsided to the needer. It's not hard. For the case for boe armour sets, you're better off, or were from getting it from the chest and even when getting the one you want as a boss drop, you were still better off selling it. Greed runs mean that even if your class item does not drop, then you still have a chance of getting something. Do you honestly think it's fine for an unpopular class to get less AD for their runs just because they chose not to be the class that everyone wants to play?
Form need runs if you want, but don't pretend that greed runs aren't a good options when overall it's a more fair system. Armour pieces used to be hundreds of thousands of AD each. Now you could run a dungeon and claim the loot for yourself even though the rest of the team did just as much work, or you could have rolled for any one sell it on and get your piece from the chest and make much more progress.
There's a reason why the dungeons are empty, and that's because it's not worth doing. If you take the only piece of loot of value, then they have no incentive to help you run it.
Back, when AoW head sold for 1 million AD, I did hundreds of GG DK runs. I searched 'DK greedrun lfxm 15k GS+'. Before we started I posted 'GREED on epic tems'. Once or twice a week we had a needer and I kicked him. I had dozends of PMs 'I reported you' etc. and I am still playing.
We did farmruns, EVERYBODY had his/her set complete. When HR got released the RG set was very expensive, too. You took a HR to fill up the group. How would it be fair, if he rolls need on every HR item, when you stack 3 CWs for faster runs.
TBH, if you want to roll need on a item, dont join greed runs. If you get kicked, then it is the logical consequence of your violation of the loot rules.
I hope, that enough of my friends will still play, when MOD 6 and if new armor sets get released or I will have more needless discussions with needers in greedruns.
I was taught, need on all. Cause you will always need the AD. (At the time I think anyone could need on anything. so it was pretty much the greed system but you hit a diff button)
so you're telling me if a CW item drops all the non-CWs in the group have just as much "right" to it? because they can SELL it??
bwhahah no wonder you get kicked from alot of groups bro. good luck there chief. good luck with that...
Yes, this is precisely what I am saying. Everyone works for the item and thus has an equal chance at it. What I do with the item is none of your concern. The need-greed dichotomy shouldn't exist in the first place, and people invented the greed rule as a way to circumvent a faulty loot design.
And, I get kicked? No, I am mostly the one doing the kicking. You might find yourself in my run, good luck there chief.
Comments
…what? BoE = Based on Experiece? BtCoA = ……!?! What's that supposed to mean?
Bind on Equip instead of Bind to Character on Acquire. BtCoA is the way every other mmo I've seen that uses need vs greed handles epics. (With rare exceptions, that usually cause drama, just like the drama here)
No it's not.
First of all, not all parties are rainbow parties, not all loot is worth the same, and not all dungeons drop an equal spread of gear.
If your running with a regular group these rules work fine. If you pug much that will get most of the population on your ignore list, & probably get you kicked from a lot of groups unless they agreed to it first. If your playing with pugs who haven't agreed to that, you might be best just rolling with everyone else and if you win give it to who needs it.
The problem is this is not how it goes with the game mechanic. The fact about these 3 option is :
Need : wanna have it for myself or sell it ( since i got the item, i can do what i want..to sell it or own use) ..they cant roll it against me..system will prioritize my roll over them..with no other member with same class with me..its 100% success for me even if i roll 1..
Greed : i wanna share my chance with my party member..despite it being my class item and i can roll need.. also i can roll theirs as well..all fair and square
Quick note : If there are member in the party that roll need, system will eliminate those that roll greed, leaving those that roll need to compete the roll.
People just wanna have a fair loot run and equal chance for all. Thats why they run greed.
this is how it's been since I don't know, a year-and-half now? it's not broken, there is no problem. that's how it works. if you can use it, you can roll "need", if you can't use it, you are locked out of rolling "need". if it's a generic item with no class restrictions (ie a purple mark) then everyone can roll "need". I don't even know what else to say here......... it's not a difficult concept to understand, what exactly is the confusion again? #smf
Like charononus say..no...what if the party consist of 4 TR and 1 CW..and the whole dungeon run drop 1 TR item and 1 CW item..4 TR will fight for 1 item but the CW got his stuff unopposed..thats not very fair isnt it?
And this was because of drama during beta when everyone was levelling their first characters. People complaining about losing the roll on items they wanted to equip to people who wanted them to sell. Not even epic gear... just the drops in normal dungeons.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Pretty much..i strongly agree people to roll need when they know the item can be roll need by other member..and not just based on epic or not..its to prevent people from ninja it and prevent the kicking drama goin on in the party..
Not to mention the addition of keys and other changes make the game very different than it was in early beta.
I'd say the biggest thing was the binding of chest items and giving you a choice of what to pick from the chest. Back then if you needed something, it wasn't a big loss to the team, afterwards the value of those items increased and so to need on it is taking more away from the team. If it was something people only ran to gear up, that wouldn't be a problem, but people rerun it to make AD. To deny them of that means that noone has any incentive to help others out and segregating the community.
Everyone has an equal 20% chance at the final "valuable loot".
Pretty simple concept really. This is why greed runs are a popular method of running.
But again, it all comes down to the party. ASK! COMMUNICATE! Maybe the party's consensus is to have a need run, then by all means go for it. There are positives to a need run as well (though in my personal opinion, it is inferior to a greed run just because you can't beat 20% equal chance).
BtCoA ??? Don't think I've ever seen that abbreviation. Every other MMO I've seen everyone calls that BOP - Bind on Pickup.
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
Used to ddo which had some stuff that bound really oddly so you sometimes needed to be really specific in if it bound, didn't bind, bound to character or account, and if it happened during pickup or equip.
No. Drops are a reward for running the dungeon, and if everyone contributes equally they deserve an equal chance at the share. You voluntarily enter an agreement(contract) and should abide by the rules. Noone cares what you want or what your character can or cannot equip. The world doesn't revolve around your perceived "wants".
Mathematically spoken from what I learned here: If there is every class in the game equally used, then chances are balanced that you get the gear you need because you have a global equally balanced chance to run into groups where you are needed. If one class is to much used, your chances get lower getting something you need, while the engine favors those who are in the minority. Still, items usable by anyone can be needed by all.
I'd still need what I need because that's how it is meant to be. And if i'm the only guardian fighter in a run and boss looses his ›Great Hat of Guardian Power‹, than for me that simply means: Crom wants me to wear a new hat, and I'd call it unfair if some WizardOfOz would just get it because he is lucky, simply because it was not meant for him. Perhaps next time, the engine will favour him with a ›Stick of the mighty Fireball‹ and that's OK for me.
And if some jackpot gives a joker of all classes item, everyone can need it and that's what I'd call fair, so i'll still need what I need and greed what I want to sell, giving anyone who is allowed to use it a better chance than me.
That's how i'll do it as long as no one comes up with a REALLY good argument. What I've read until here is just whining about someone not having the chance to get something to sell, which is clearly NOT my definition of having fun IN A GAME.
I agree 100% but don't be surprised when the mob label you a ninja, a looter, a thief, a fraudster and then kick you and ban you and prosecute you in real life across several continents (no, really, stop sniggering at the back...) and all for choosing an option in a game that is working as the devs intended. Yes, working as the devs intended...
Anyone that demands you change your loot selections to suit them is not doing anything as noble as looking after the party. They are just selfishly trying to grab a piece of loot for their own selfish selves. Not that they can even agree on the exact rules anyway.
The problem isn't choosing the option.
The problem is choosing the option AFTER agreeing to "greed only." In that case you are definitely an un-trustworthy liar at the very least. However, if the group did not pre-agree, absolutely - roll as intended.
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
If my class item drops I should be able to need on it, and I should not get kicked from the group. It is still equality. If you run the instance more than once you will eventually get "your class item" which you roll need on, and you have achieved parity. Think long term.
You only get removed from the group for going against the pre-agreed upon need/greed run at the start because that might mean you are trying to steal the final loot.
Be sure to ask next time what type of run it is at the beginning.
1) If you have someone else of the same class, you have less chance to win loot than others who are the only class on the team.
2) Each classes loot has a different value
3) If you already had said item, you'd be called greedy for needing it when you don't or when you'd sell it, but if need was the norm people would constantly do it because "i need ad"
Older content doesn't mean much, but if they redid the whole bop from chest boe as a drop, then you should run greed as a whole or form your own need groups.
Long term you keep getting newbies needing the loot so you get nothing of value for helping out. Whereas on a greed run you'd get it in a reasonable amount of time from the chest or can sell/trade the item you eventually win for the one you want. However that super expensive class item won't be just given to the guy who wants to play the shiny new class. Everyone worked for that expensive drop.
bwhahah no wonder you get kicked from alot of groups bro. good luck there chief. good luck with that...
Lets check your assumption of parity over long term, historically, mod 0 - mod 4 ( more than a year ):
lets assume 500 ToS runs with an armor drop rate of 5% = 25 drops total from the boss unbound.
we will examine only two classes, TR & CW, so we will reduce it and discard the rest of the classes drops and remain with 5 each.
Lets look at net gain of the most expansive drops:
CW - HV tunic average price 850k -> 5*850k = 4250k AD
TR - swash ~250k -> 5*250k = 1250k AD
But you will say, CW were OP, everyone stacked CW. NP, lets assume there were 2 of those, and we still get 2125k AD per CW, almost twice what the TR got.
Equality at it's best.
That's funny because I don't recall getting kicked a single time, but do recall other people kicking others for needing an item even when no rules have been stated. I don't really see what's so hard to understand. Everyone on average gets and equal chance for equal valued loot instead of that loot being lopsided to the needer. It's not hard. For the case for boe armour sets, you're better off, or were from getting it from the chest and even when getting the one you want as a boss drop, you were still better off selling it. Greed runs mean that even if your class item does not drop, then you still have a chance of getting something. Do you honestly think it's fine for an unpopular class to get less AD for their runs just because they chose not to be the class that everyone wants to play?
Form need runs if you want, but don't pretend that greed runs aren't a good options when overall it's a more fair system. Armour pieces used to be hundreds of thousands of AD each. Now you could run a dungeon and claim the loot for yourself even though the rest of the team did just as much work, or you could have rolled for any one sell it on and get your piece from the chest and make much more progress.
There's a reason why the dungeons are empty, and that's because it's not worth doing. If you take the only piece of loot of value, then they have no incentive to help you run it.
We did farmruns, EVERYBODY had his/her set complete. When HR got released the RG set was very expensive, too. You took a HR to fill up the group. How would it be fair, if he rolls need on every HR item, when you stack 3 CWs for faster runs.
TBH, if you want to roll need on a item, dont join greed runs. If you get kicked, then it is the logical consequence of your violation of the loot rules.
I hope, that enough of my friends will still play, when MOD 6 and if new armor sets get released or I will have more needless discussions with needers in greedruns.
Greed- on purple armor/weapons
Need- On purple accessories, blue stuff, green stuff, enchants
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
Yes, this is precisely what I am saying. Everyone works for the item and thus has an equal chance at it. What I do with the item is none of your concern. The need-greed dichotomy shouldn't exist in the first place, and people invented the greed rule as a way to circumvent a faulty loot design.
And, I get kicked? No, I am mostly the one doing the kicking. You might find yourself in my run, good luck there chief.