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Level 70 Stat curves

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  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    You need to get on the preview server and actually test the changes before you scream about the sky falling.

    It's not that bad...and people need to stop looking at the stat curves as an isolated variable. Weapon damage is increasing dramatically (which has the biggest net effect on your power), as well as substantial increases in stats, especially as you get up to level 70 gear.
    "Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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  • tomiotartomiotar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 227 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    ironzerg79 wrote: »
    You need to get on the preview server and actually test the changes before you scream about the sky falling.

    It's not that bad...and people need to stop looking at the stat curves as an isolated variable. Weapon damage is increasing dramatically (which has the biggest net effect on your power), as well as substantial increases in stats, especially as you get up to level 70 gear.

    I just logged out from test server. At lvl63 my HR with legendary arti bow (near 20k GS on live server) get HAMSTER before taking half HP of trash mobs on tyrany of dragons minidungeons. So yeah rigth now the curves and the scaling are really mess up, there is no point to try to defend current status.
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  • str8slayerstr8slayer Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 715 Bounty Hunter
    edited February 2015
    The curve you see is what is going on overall. Class builders needed to know where the tunnel leads. It is not taking into account class mech. new gear, and a long list of changes to come.
    You should not read anything into it. Class builders needed to have some general data b4 we could test the rest.
    Without it they would just be guessing at things. Now we can get busy and work our magic.
    It will all work out but you need to give them time.

    tnx

    I don't understand how "you should not read into it" can be a reasonable solution to this problem. Cryptic has never been good at "hitting the target" with changes like this and this is looking to be another very big mistake of a similar nature.

    We want them to get this right the first time, not put the game into month(s) of maintenance because of lvls 61-70 changing the game.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    tomiotar wrote: »
    I just logged out from test server. At lvl63 my HR with legendary arti bow (near 20k GS on live server) get HAMSTER before taking half HP of trash mobs on tyrany of dragons minidungeons. So yeah rigth now the curves and the scaling are really mess up, there is no point to try to defend current status.

    I just finished Ghost Stories on my CW, with the exact same gear I have on Live. I was scaled to 70, fighting level 71 mobs, and managed to get through it without dying. It was a bit harder, but hardly what you describe. The only part that was challenging was when I went into the tomb and got scaled back to 60 and had to do the last three fights versus 71 mobs.

    So...either I'm the world's most amazing player ever (doubtful) or....well, you get the picture.
    "Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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  • abaddon523abaddon523 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    str8slayer wrote: »
    Well, this is certainly an odd and unprecedented direction to take the game, we go from casual/easy to nearly impossible in one mod? What we'll go out with our lvl 60's and the instant we hit 61 we lose 80+% of our stat ratings because of the new curves? Hmmm, yeah, that sounds like some good incentive to play mod 6....

    Even people who have single OP characters with many 10's of millions of AD in them will be getting crushed at lvl 61 when their eyes pop out of their head as they go from 65% damage bonus from power to 15% or 45% crit chance to 8% and 40% deflect chance to 5%....

    This doesn't even touch on all the retroactive problems this causes with how feats, artifacts, companions, boons and races currently use stat points.

    It's not as bad as that. The changes to the stat curves are a huge adjustment downward. However there are several changes pushing your character back up.

    -Weapon damage (which is a multiplier on all damage output) is getting a pretty big bump.
    -All classes are getting new feats and 10 more feat points. Many of which are quite powerful.
    -All powers are getting a 4th rank which makes them quite a bit more powerful.
    -New gear will have more stats to offset some of the loss in the stat curves.

    In totality, the adjustment is still down. Especially in defense department. Survivability is way down. Those crabs during the HE can and do whomp me if I'm not careful. But honestly, that's the way it should be. I'm tired of facerolling everything in the game.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • rgladiatorgladiato Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 313 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    ironzerg79 wrote: »
    So...either I'm the world's most amazing player ever (doubtful) or....well, you get the picture.

    Well I know first hand you aren't the world's most amazing player ever. ;)

    Using info from preview gateway (which may be incorrect) I took a look at TR's Horn of the Golden Dragon power vs. damage changes:




    Power
    Base Damage
    % Increase
    Total Damage


    Current Stats
    1389
    439
    8.34%
    475.6


    Mod 6
    2157
    631
    5.4%
    665















    Nixon the TR
    Give a man a fire and he's warm for the day. But set fire to him and he's warm for the rest of his life.
    o1iHDN0.png?1
  • windquakewindquake Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 134 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    m5 stats :10k power, 4,5k crit, 2,2k armor penet, 2k recovery (and I am not even close to end game with my char)
    m5 weapon :+2k power(cca)
    m6 weapon :crafted one (not BiS- not even close to 120rank artifact) +4300power (more then double)
    m6 stats on gear: looks like 1,8x-2,5x (still not calculated for BiS)more then lvl 60 stats on gear
    m6 enchantments: boosted by x% from 220 to 280 (etc.)
    NOW: if you get this info and just double your stats you have now which in my cause is 20k power 9k crit 4,5k armor penet 4k recovery (then you add like 20% extra from enchantment boost) "21k power?" and add a paladin boost, sw boost, cw boost, dc boost (of stats) you will be easily at 30k power. SO pls, stop bi***ing about stat curves when they will be "almost" the same as they are now once you get a full lvl 70 gear which is not even (Bis) which you have right now.
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  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    tomiotar wrote: »
    I just logged out from test server. At lvl63 my HR with legendary arti bow (near 20k GS on live server) get HAMSTER before taking half HP of trash mobs on tyrany of dragons minidungeons. So yeah rigth now the curves and the scaling are really mess up, there is no point to try to defend current status.

    Uh-huh. And did you notice that the enemies in there are level 71?
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  • rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Uh-huh. And did you notice that the enemies in there are level 71?

    You only get weaker by levelling
  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    When I nosed into one of those lairs, it was before they'd officially announced anything re: the old campaigns being scaled content, I wasn't informed that I had been scaled up (I had been scaled down for the exterior portions), and got a total thrashing due to the enemies being 10+ level higher than my character. It had nothing to do with my relative power and everything to do with my not really being meant to be in there.

    I'm not sure how Zerg's experience fits into it. They may have implemented lair scaling since I was in one, since this stuff wasn't actually ready when I was fooling around with it.

    Anyway, it's not like the second pass of stat scaling has been performed yet. All still subject to change.
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    Neverwinter Census 2017

    All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
  • learch123learch123 Member Posts: 514 Bounty Hunter
    edited February 2015
    abaddon523 wrote: »
    Defense

    The result is that 393.5 Defense will grant 1% Damage Resistance.

    aerx50.jpg

    Lifesteal

    The result is that 964 Lifesteal will grant 1% of damage returned as HP.

    zn6g0m.jpg

    Regeneration

    The result is that 700 Regeneration will result in a 1% increase in incoming healing and healing out of combat.

    t83nyp.jpg

    Deflection

    The result is that 574 Deflect adds 1% deflection chance.

    auuvdf.jpg



    omfg this defenceive line is going to make it next to imposible to survive without a healer even in just grinding
  • ironzerg79ironzerg79 Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,942 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    I'm not sure how Zerg's experience fits into it. They may have implemented lair scaling since I was in one, since this stuff wasn't actually ready when I was fooling around with it.

    Anyway, it's not like the second pass of stat scaling has been performed yet. All still subject to change.

    I just went in this morning to check it again. I was scaled up to 70 when I entered in the instance. When I went inside the building, I was back at level 60, and the mobs were still 71. Still managed to blow them up, but I filed a bug report on it.

    But yes, the content is "harder", but if that guy is getting murdered before he can even get a minion down to 50% health, something is substantially wrong with his character, because that wasn't even close to my experience.
    "Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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  • whistlingdixiewhistlingdixie Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Changing the stat curves as such is like squeezing a balloon on one end and thinking it's got more air in it because the other side is stretched. If you simplify it all down, the details don't matter so much. Everything has 100% life, and it dies at 0% -- including players. How you get from point A to point B is going to be min-maxed no matter what. And regardless how nerfed our composite scores get, the content we face is going to have to fall in a certain range of challenging. If we're weaker, then all the content will have to be nerfed or people won't be able to complete it and lose interest in the game out of frustration. (Hasn't this already happened in PvP?)

    As for the number crunching: this is also an action game, and timing your actions is a huge part of effectiveness. I have soloed large packs of mobs that can easily kill me in two hits. How? I dodge a lot, I use my powers and the terrain to avoid being hit. If I have enough time, I can solo a dragon. It's just a lot of dodging around. This is different from most of the content in WoW, where it's about maximizing your output by repeating the same rotation over and over again with only occasional deviations for encounter mechanics.

    I don't think it's too surprising when top geared players can go through the content of two modules ago (VT) and ignore certain boss mechanics. No one has enough gearscore to just stand still and spam their rotation without dodging attacks, positioning enemies, etc. If you ignore the caskets, you're going to have to kite a bunch of adds that spawn. I like the twitchy action of this game, where one wrong move might kill me. I do not want to see it progress to some of what I've seen in the Tiamat raid: where if the cumulative combination of gearscore and class specs aren't present, it's going to be a fail.

    This is mod really changing too many things at once. Of course, the stat curves are going to change as level increases. But it's back to squeezing the balloon -- they add more DR to enemies, which I think is great. A static DR that caps at 24% for bosses has always seemed underdeveloped to me. Yet instead of just trying one adjustment, which is easy to validate, they're also buffing ArP to "compensate" for the new, higher mob DR. That's just chasing your tail.

    I like to calculate everything down to "effective HP". Adding DR is essentially like adding more "effective HP". But why meddle with a system that's working, when you can just give all the mobs more HP? I like to see big orange (and green) numbers pop up, with lightning bolts beside them. It's fun, and it's satisfying. If I feel wimpy, I won't enjoy the game nearly as much.

    If you make the game too hard, people will go back to doing things like the used to. In the beginning, before gearscore inflation, it was just expected that you'd go on suicide runs to the next camp, or round up half the dungeon and push them off a cliff. People found places to stand where bosses couldn't hit you, or map glitches to get around a lot of tedious, unrewarding trash mobs. I ran ToS recently for the first time in over a year, and it was the first time I'd actually killed everything on the way through. That includes the boss, because I had only ever completed that fight by someone making her suicide jump off the bridge. And it was actually fun. Some close calls, a man down once or twice, but overall a delightful run where I was on my toes but I wasn't super stressed or frantically about to die. It's a sweet spot. I hate to see it end.

    So maybe it's possible to stand in the middle of 20 mobs and kill them all without worrying about dying. But that presumes that there isn't a red circle that is going to knock you prone and get you trampled. I find the most challenging (and stimulating) part of the Tiamat raid is when I get several Erinyes on me. Their charge attack hits me for over half my health. However, if I time everything correctly and dodge just right, I can kill them. But one misstep and I'm toast. I could definitely not just stand there and spam a rotation and expect to survive. But it's that crazy stuff that makes me like Neverwinter.
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  • s1lv3rdrgnforums1lv3rdrgnforum Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 264 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Not sure why you all even care right now. Without updated gear - of course you're going to get smashed after 61. You dont have the stats they intend you to have at 70. Cryptic are looking at worst case scenario BiS gear with rank 12 enchants and a fully equipped Augment. Until you have that - you cant test what they're looking at. I've leveled my SW to 62 only because I still overpower the enemy. If I get swarmed tho (by 2 or 3 even) I die - quickly. Because I dont have the stats they believe I should (because all of my gear is still lvl 60). So .. be patient. Give them time to get the gear updated and a couple more patches out and THEN start testing the stat curves and how they feel against the enemy.
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  • tomiotartomiotar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 227 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    ironzerg79 wrote: »
    I just went in this morning to check it again. I was scaled up to 70 when I entered in the instance. When I went inside the building, I was back at level 60, and the mobs were still 71. Still managed to blow them up, but I filed a bug report on it.

    But yes, the content is "harder", but if that guy is getting murdered before he can even get a minion down to 50% health, something is substantially wrong with his character, because that wasn't even close to my experience.


    So basically u was lvl60 so u ddint got any of the nerf and u manage to do everything, awsome u are the best. Now do some leveling to 63 as i did and try to do the same content.


    EDIT:

    So i just went back there to make a video about how it looks trying to do the minidungeon. U can see my stats, feats at lvl63 and how they get scaled when i get inside.

    http://youtu.be/fXia5ouNcTw.
  • sangrinesangrine Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 575 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    tomiotar wrote: »

    As a trapper HR, you should use both ranged and melee powers to max your effectiveness.

    Try this:

    Constricting Arrow + maurauder's escape + Fox's Cunning

    Start with fox cunning, then attack with constricting arrow.
    then switch to melee and rush in. after melee powers are all on cooldown,
    switch back to ranged and escape.
    and repeat. use seismic shot when available.

    frequent rushing in/out causes some loss of dps, but you will be much more tankier.

    On live server, in WoD, in Bone rituals heroic encounter, my HR trapper can aggro all the starting mobs at the same time and still survive. My CW can only aggro 2-3 mobs and survive. If she aggro's all the mobs, she will die. Well played trapper can fight larger/stronger mob than even the mighty CW. I only recently switched to trapper and was very surprised how tanky trapper can be.

    You also may want to try a healer companion .... angel of protection?
  • tomiotartomiotar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 227 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    REMOVED BY ME (this guys will never understand that this post is not about how to play a trapper)
  • sangrinesangrine Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 575 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    tomiotar wrote: »
    I guess u missing the point, did u see me doing the full range+melee encounter rotation with the torns active all the time and still no trash mob was killed?

    You are playing trapper HR wrong.
    When I first re-speced to trapper, I tried to play as you are playing, and it's only effective against weak mob.
    Against strong, deadly mob, you better use fox cunning and maraurder's rush/escape.
    I can solo Bone rituals in WoD and aggro the entire starting mob with my 18k PvE trapper HR but only if using Marauder's and fox cunning. If I play as you are playing, I will die quickly.

    My dps DC can solo bone rituals too but my CW will be dead if I agro the entire starting mob.
    Properly played trapper is very tanky.
    Make the video again and try what I suggest.
  • denvalddenvald Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 702 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Hello Abaddon! Nice work as always. From your CW abilities guide to your work on stat curves, I appreciate the effort you invest to give us relevant information for character building :)

    You probably know by now, but GMC mentionned in another thread that the curves are 3D and 4D graphics, which I'm not familiar with so much so I bring you the quote from the other thread as a FYI.

    I cannot for several reasons. The first of which is that revealing underlying math that controls the game (a la stat curves) would get me in pretty serious trouble. Second reason is that they are substantially more complex to better allow us to tune them on a level by level basis. Each stat curve has additional variables that let us tune or scale how good the curves are for particular level brackets or even particular levels. This gives us a level of control that we did not have with the old flat curves where any change would affect the whole game and made tweaking them far more difficult. With the new curves we can selectively turn a lot more dials and get stats performing where we want them an individual level basis. To accurately graph these curves I would need a better way to communicate 3 and 4 dimensional graphs in visual form. As pretty as 3D graphs are, they aren't very useful for much beyond looking at overall trends :)

    Waiting for the next patch for more CW/SW testing now :)
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  • bashteros1234bashteros1234 Member Posts: 46 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    denvald wrote: »
    Hello Abaddon! Nice work as always. From your CW abilities guide to your work on stat curves, I appreciate the effort you invest to give us relevant information for character building :)

    You probably know by now, but GMC mentionned in another thread that the curves are 3D and 4D graphics, which I'm not familiar with so much so I bring you the quote from the other thread as a FYI.




    Waiting for the next patch for more CW/SW testing now :)

    From the GMC post I would interpret the levels or level-brackets as additional dimension, Abaddon took the "Level 70 slice" to make his curves, because that are the only relevant curves for endgame and creating builds. Level 70 will probably be a level-bracket with a single level, so GMC can tweak the end-game curve without influencing the other ones.

    Perhaps they become creative and build different stat curves for different classes (or even paragon paths) - probably that's not the case otherwise someone would have said so.

    Do I understand the curves correct? - If I would try to recreate the curves, I would have to
    - Level to 70
    - equip specific stats (for example 1xAzure 7, 2xAzure 7, ...)
    - observe the change on the char-sheet and draw the curve

    or are these curves the result of ACT traces
  • tomiotartomiotar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 227 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    REMOVED BY ME (this guys will never understand that this post is not about how to play a trapper)
  • sangrinesangrine Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 575 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    tomiotar wrote: »
    And u keep avoiding to answer the most basic point, I was figthing TRASH MOBS nothing ever close to a strong mobs, i was figthing the weaker mobs from Mod4 and my toon with 11k+ power, legendary artifact weapon, Corrupted black ice set cant kill them even after doing the full rotation of ranged AND melee + going back to ranged. All ur explanation about how a trapper should play is awsome, but is still the same tactic ive used after respawn at campfire and I try again. If u CANT regain HP during combat, the weakest trash mobs hit u 5k damage + DoTs AND they can still be alive after a full rotation of all my enounters and thorns active to deal a lot more of extra damage, then I guess there is clear problem because after the new curves (that is what is being discussed on this thread, if u want to teach me to play my toon please just send me PM) and the new scaling system ur toon get so weak that cant even handle the weakest mobs from 2 mods behind.

    Those are strong mobs. Why? because they killed you. Use the word "trash" or any other derogatory word to describe that mob but if the mob easily kills you, then it's a strong mob. You started the fight with ranged encounters and then started using split shot. A well played trapper rarely uses at-will powers. Split shot is for archery HR. Only time I use split on my trapper is when the mob is easy to kill or when I only want to agro the mob and not kill. You switched to melee only after you were almost dead.

    If you were an archery HR, I would somewhat understand why you try to kill mob at range.
    I want module 6 to have difficult battles. You seem to want easy battles which can be won with only ranged attack and split shot.
    I want to see a video of you playing HR as I suggest. Otherwise, I want Cryptic to know that you are playing HR trapper ineffectively.

    Roots do not stop mob, with ranged attack, from hitting you. Roots can stop a mob which has melee attack. If mob has ranged attack, then roots will not protect you. When fighting a mob with powerful ranged attack, there are only few possible ways to survive: dodge (shift), fox cunning, maurader's escape, health potions, healer, .... but not roots.
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  • tomiotartomiotar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 227 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    Ok well this thread was about the new curve not content scale. If you look the content is scaled at the same rate you are. What is not changing is the gear you have. The only way to keep up at that rate is to use the welfare gear that drops (same as you would if you were starting a new toon mostly).
    None of that has mutch of anything todo with the topic of this thread unless you are saying that the curve is the same for the content.
    In anycase its not complcated to understand. No resion to get angry at each other about it to say the least. It wount matter what class your playing the scale of the content grown in mag. no matter what.

    tnx

    I totally agree with u and thats the reason ive start deleting all my post but keep the one that include the video. On the video u can see i spend 3m20 sec showing my set, amount of stats and what do i get with those stats first at lvl63 and then those same stats after being rescaled to lvl70. Last 1min 40sec is the only figthing part that i made it to show the effect of those changes but can be totally skipped for the purpose of this thread.
  • abaddon523abaddon523 Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited February 2015
    denvald wrote: »
    Hello Abaddon! Nice work as always. From your CW abilities guide to your work on stat curves, I appreciate the effort you invest to give us relevant information for character building :)

    You probably know by now, but GMC mentionned in another thread that the curves are 3D and 4D graphics, which I'm not familiar with so much so I bring you the quote from the other thread as a FYI.


    Waiting for the next patch for more CW/SW testing now :)

    Yeah, GMC's response was to my request for the curves. I read that as "well, I don't want to disclose that information so I'm going to simultaneously say it's really complicated and you wouldn't understand, and downplay its importance so you don't look into it." When they say the curves are 3D and 4D, what they mean is that they are level dependent. So they have, at least, two variables (level and the stat itself, like Power). All I did was hold one variable constant (level) so that it could be graphed in 2D. Level 70 is really the only curve people care about since that is where we will be spending the vast majority of time.

    Do I understand the curves correct? - If I would try to recreate the curves, I would have to
    - Level to 70
    - equip specific stats (for example 1xAzure 7, 2xAzure 7, ...)
    - observe the change on the char-sheet and draw the curve

    or are these curves the result of ACT traces

    You've got the right method. It's just observing your stats in-game and recording what amount of Defense gives what amount of Damage Resistance then fitting a curve to the data. I probably don't have their formulae exactly right, but they're a good enough approximation. ACT is not used.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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