This is a wonderful thread! I hope the data collection is going on because this is valuable information to pass a judgement on.
Good luck for this!
Anway, I am also curious how this will affect overall gameplay but certainly it is good to see that things are no longer that easy anymore. Although I hope lower equpped players still stand a chance in dungeons.
An interesting bynote regarding these discussions of arp and dr for pvp is that everybody will have much effective resistance ignored, which means that tank players, like the GF and anybody who has a high DR will be in big big trouble.
Addionally, it could mean that most people will get killed even more quickly than before.
Its way too severe.
They are trying to fix too many things with this stat change. Power creep, T1/T2 gear better than anything they have released since for some classes, self healing making healers unnecessary.
At 61 the stats drop off a cliff (some more than others). I think there will be some unpleasant side effects. Like why bother with any 1-60 content it will just be a race to 70 game. You can zone in and pick up your green gear thats better than any epic before that. People will just get their artifacts, boons and then lvl to 70.
This is already an issue. A dungeon like PK has about a 10k requirement but people wont grp with you until your 16k plus. I see this constantly with all dugeons. Now the requirements will be lvl70 and 18k plus or you wont get a grp.
For new players or people lvling a new character I think its going to be very hard to catch up. Killing self healing will make leveling much more difficult especially for new players.
By making the drop in stats so severe it makes everything 1-60 pointless.
Its way too severe. They are trying to fix too many things with this stat change. Power creep, T1/T2 gear better than anything they have released since for some classes, self healing making healers unnecessary.
At 61 the stats drop off a cliff (some more than others). I think there will be some unpleasant side effects. Like why bother with any 1-60 content it will just be a race to 70 game. You can zone in and pick up your green gear thats better than any epic before that. People will just get their artifacts, boons and then lvl to 70.
This is already an issue. A dungeon like PK has about a 10k requirement but people wont grp with you until your 16k plus. I see this constantly with all dugeons. Now the requirements will be lvl70 and 18k plus or you wont get a grp.
For new players or people lvling a new character I think its going to be very hard to catch up. Killing self healing will make leveling much more difficult especially for new players.
By making the drop in stats so severe it makes everything 1-60 pointless.
I highlighted some things I agree with.
I dont have a problem with the changes. I agree with Abaddon on almost every post. The power creep *is* too much. CN, VT, eDV, MC, Tiamat .. all of this content is right now trivial (and I'm only 15k exec TR or 14k MoF Tham CW)
At the end of the day, which of the two evils do we want in the game.
1. The gear and stats come too easy and everything is boring to play after 60?
2. The gear and stats are near meaningless and there is no "feeling of power" as a reward in the end game?
Should we at 25k GS crush all content and walk into mobs as if we were a God descended? I cant answer this question. I think it's a core question of D&D and I think it has been debated for 50+ years. At the end of the day I think we have to make personal decisions based on what is offered and what we find fun. If that means a dozen players walk and a dozen more become interested.. it is what it is.
Bedlam: Creating chaos as a MI Exec TR Avariel Merilwen: Burn baby, MoF/Rene Aejun The Silver: Devoted to Healing, DevOP/Justice Mina Rosepetal: Super Natural, Pathfinder/Melee Frost: Benchwarmer, Soulbinder/Fury
Some other number cruncher (smarter than me) came up with this cool tool. It is correct as far as current live goes. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1PS72tYTabmnbYC3VO7bxb79HvmugQOWfIETUZGtGBIY/edit?pli=1#gid=0
The prob. is when i plug in the number im getting in preview, well it is all wonky.
Mostly i point it out now as tools like this may come in handy.
Hopefully we can start to put more of these together or at least make some use of it.
tnx
when we;ll get the new stat curves that can be easily updated.
The problem is I dont think they considered the ramifications of such a drastic change to the stat values. As we have seen, cryptic isnt really good about going back and cleaning up all the little mistakes that come from these sorts of changes.
I agree that there needs to be a change, but, a much more gradual change to the entire curve would be a better way to go. If you look back from 1-60 and think of all the time spent to get your boons and rank 7plus enchants and realize that all of that is so small a change after 61 its almost worthless.
Think of a 250point boon. Pre61 its about 2% after its about one third of a percent (.3%). Your rank10 enchants are about point4% (.4%)
Really why would I bother. All of the number boons will become so small it may not be worth the time. The final boons may be, we will have to see how its implemented.
The difference between someone with 6 rank10 crit enchants and someone with no enchants at lvl 70 will be about a 2.4% difference. For me at least thats not worth it.
If they want to continue with these drastic changes I believe they should change certain things to flat percentage increases. All boons for sure. Movement enchants. All the bonuses like Incoming healing, AoE resist ect.
These changes are going to make flat percentage increases like you get from your attributes the king.
I think the final deciding factor for cryptic will be the money. If having the BiS gear is no longer that great of a benefit, people will stop buying stuff and that literally is the bottom line.
yeah I think it is good as well. I'm sure they will tweek it a bit before launch but i like the fact that there isn't a massive gap between characters. It will grow in future mods as well but it will be fun to have everyone with eyesight of each other again. KInda like launch
I like it, but I think they should apply it to the entire game (from level 1 and up) as there are going to be some issues now where they are going to have to already change some powers/feats/gear/etc to adjust for the changes in the stats and then what will happen to the level 60 and under for these situations?
I like it, but I think they should apply it to the entire game (from level 1 and up) as there are going to be some issues now where they are going to have to already change some powers/feats/gear/etc to adjust for the changes in the stats and then what will happen to the level 60 and under for these situations?
the point is that the new curves are so harsh that there is no reason to gear up.
rank 10, rank 1 makes no difference. So what should i play for?
The problem is I dont think they considered the ramifications of such a drastic change to the stat values. As we have seen, cryptic isnt really good about going back and cleaning up all the little mistakes that come from these sorts of changes.
I agree that there needs to be a change, but, a much more gradual change to the entire curve would be a better way to go. If you look back from 1-60 and think of all the time spent to get your boons and rank 7plus enchants and realize that all of that is so small a change after 61 its almost worthless.
Think of a 250point boon. Pre61 its about 2% after its about one third of a percent (.3%). Your rank10 enchants are about point4% (.4%)
Really why would I bother. All of the number boons will become so small it may not be worth the time. The final boons may be, we will have to see how its implemented.
The difference between someone with 6 rank10 crit enchants and someone with no enchants at lvl 70 will be about a 2.4% difference. For me at least thats not worth it.
If they want to continue with these drastic changes I believe they should change certain things to flat percentage increases. All boons for sure. Movement enchants. All the bonuses like Incoming healing, AoE resist ect.
These changes are going to make flat percentage increases like you get from your attributes the king.
I think the final deciding factor for cryptic will be the money. If having the BiS gear is no longer that great of a benefit, people will stop buying stuff and that literally is the bottom line.
I bet they change boons to have % chance instead of points. As for BiS, people will still pay. Just look at everyone who upgraded to rank 10s when they didn't give a big advantage percentage wise over rank 9s. All they are doing now is reducing the gap between bis and new 70s. On live it isnt even in the same ball park. The negative consequences can be felt across the whole game, pvp pve and economy. This is really their only option. I wish they would have increased the level cap before artifact equipment but it is what it is.
"we all love this game and want it to thrive"
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fludpuckerxMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2015
Ok.. Crit stat by definition has a hard cap of 100%. It should have a very steep soft cap at 50% and get rid of crit severity as a secondary stat on equipment , and just make excess crit feed into crit severity lineally. Making crit potentially as viable as power. Severity does not have hard cap.
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fludpuckerxMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2015
Also on the LS/regen issue... Why not make LS a HOT pool, that feeds like regen, but works only while in combat.. a switch if you will.. in combat, points come from LS pool and when out of combat.. they come from regen.
Although you are aiming only CWs, it's precisely my point. Everything giving raw % is way more powerful under the new system.
My point too!
Like I couldn't do the same with my GWF!
Run to that kind of mobs with my GWF and couldn't kill everything w/o any healer and just lifesteal+endless comp. is keeping me alive!
My point too!
Like I couldn't do the same with my GWF!
Run to that kind of mobs with my GWF and couldn't kill everything w/o any healer and just lifesteal+endless comp. is keeping me alive!
Well, to me, not having a dependency on a healer is a strong selling point. The majority of MMOs since EQ1 have relied on the trinity of healer, dps, tank. And it's gotten old. Very old. Pushing the game in that direction is a step back.
A good design is to not have a dependency on any class - just having 5 reasonably competent players should be sufficient. I realize not everyone will agree with this, but that's what I'm looking for in an MMO.
Well, to me, not having a dependency on a healer is a strong selling point. The majority of MMOs since EQ1 have relied on the trinity of healer, dps, tank. And it's gotten old. Very old. Pushing the game in that direction is a step back.
A good design is to not have a dependency on any class - just having 5 reasonably competent players should be sufficient. I realize not everyone will agree with this, but that's what I'm looking for in an MMO.
the problem is the change they are doing are mainly to play 5 paladin's party or 5 healer's party or 5 TR'S party. GWF and GF already out , CW probably follow (this part mainly depend of life steal change since the change done for v4 mainly imply a one way to play CW), SW probably also in big trouble
So with a gradient around 1/700 we have a break even point around 19k Crit Rating.
This thread is about the Rating curves for Mod6. So lets stay there.
The devs wanted another behaviour when i remember correctly. It is no secret why.
The Ratings doubled since relase. The endgame optimization is very easy... hit the (often miscalculated) so called "softcap" and then dump into power. Some classes avoid Ratings like ArP. A optimized PvE GWF player will calll you an ArP-softcap of 1855. Every point more is kind of wasted! But now the game will change. All Items give more stats. With more I mean much much more. Companions will give this 15% buff, artifacts, enchants... we will be "encouraged" to spend <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.000.000 AD for better Ratings. I expect an increase of about 50-100%. When the Ratings really have a linear effect (no proof for 19k Crit Rating yet^^) every Rating point has such an (dont forget return-on-investment calc) effect on DPS like Power nowadays. Of course all curves are different for each level like the one for power. No surprise.
Honestly, I think it would have been wise for them to have done a full content overhaul- i.e. implement the new curves from level one, adjusting mobs accordingly, so that people logging into the test servers with 60s notice the change, deal with it, and move on, rather than getting coldcocked by it at 61. I suspect people could handle "new mod is out, everyone's stats are lower, more room to grow" much better than "new mod is out, playing new content... Yay, I leveled up- why am I taking so much more damage, and what happened to my cooldown speed?"
I'm particularly worried about things that are entirely internal to the character, as opposed to measures of how they interact with the world. Defense dropping? High level mobs hit proportionately harder, I can deal. Crit dropping? High level mobs are harder to crit- again, I can deal.
Things like recovery and regen, though, things that are 100% internal in their impact? That's jarring.
Now, I suspect the plan with mod6 is, in fact, to introduce those stat curves across the board and adjust all the 60- content accordingly. I certainly hope it is, as that will leave the existing campaign content quite playable if you feel like going back and grinding for the 0.1%-of-a-stat boons.
Comments
In the livesteam they said 85-90% Damage Resistance on enemies is something they're looking at.
Good luck for this!
Anway, I am also curious how this will affect overall gameplay but certainly it is good to see that things are no longer that easy anymore. Although I hope lower equpped players still stand a chance in dungeons.
that was by the end of life cycle for these stat curves, before next curve changes
Addionally, it could mean that most people will get killed even more quickly than before.
They are trying to fix too many things with this stat change. Power creep, T1/T2 gear better than anything they have released since for some classes, self healing making healers unnecessary.
At 61 the stats drop off a cliff (some more than others). I think there will be some unpleasant side effects. Like why bother with any 1-60 content it will just be a race to 70 game. You can zone in and pick up your green gear thats better than any epic before that. People will just get their artifacts, boons and then lvl to 70.
This is already an issue. A dungeon like PK has about a 10k requirement but people wont grp with you until your 16k plus. I see this constantly with all dugeons. Now the requirements will be lvl70 and 18k plus or you wont get a grp.
For new players or people lvling a new character I think its going to be very hard to catch up. Killing self healing will make leveling much more difficult especially for new players.
By making the drop in stats so severe it makes everything 1-60 pointless.
I highlighted some things I agree with.
I dont have a problem with the changes. I agree with Abaddon on almost every post. The power creep *is* too much. CN, VT, eDV, MC, Tiamat .. all of this content is right now trivial (and I'm only 15k exec TR or 14k MoF Tham CW)
At the end of the day, which of the two evils do we want in the game.
1. The gear and stats come too easy and everything is boring to play after 60?
2. The gear and stats are near meaningless and there is no "feeling of power" as a reward in the end game?
Should we at 25k GS crush all content and walk into mobs as if we were a God descended? I cant answer this question. I think it's a core question of D&D and I think it has been debated for 50+ years. At the end of the day I think we have to make personal decisions based on what is offered and what we find fun. If that means a dozen players walk and a dozen more become interested.. it is what it is.
Avariel Merilwen: Burn baby, MoF/Rene
Aejun The Silver: Devoted to Healing, DevOP/Justice
Mina Rosepetal: Super Natural, Pathfinder/Melee
Frost: Benchwarmer, Soulbinder/Fury
when we;ll get the new stat curves that can be easily updated.
I agree that there needs to be a change, but, a much more gradual change to the entire curve would be a better way to go. If you look back from 1-60 and think of all the time spent to get your boons and rank 7plus enchants and realize that all of that is so small a change after 61 its almost worthless.
Think of a 250point boon. Pre61 its about 2% after its about one third of a percent (.3%). Your rank10 enchants are about point4% (.4%)
Really why would I bother. All of the number boons will become so small it may not be worth the time. The final boons may be, we will have to see how its implemented.
The difference between someone with 6 rank10 crit enchants and someone with no enchants at lvl 70 will be about a 2.4% difference. For me at least thats not worth it.
If they want to continue with these drastic changes I believe they should change certain things to flat percentage increases. All boons for sure. Movement enchants. All the bonuses like Incoming healing, AoE resist ect.
These changes are going to make flat percentage increases like you get from your attributes the king.
I think the final deciding factor for cryptic will be the money. If having the BiS gear is no longer that great of a benefit, people will stop buying stuff and that literally is the bottom line.
the point is that the new curves are so harsh that there is no reason to gear up.
rank 10, rank 1 makes no difference. So what should i play for?
I bet they change boons to have % chance instead of points. As for BiS, people will still pay. Just look at everyone who upgraded to rank 10s when they didn't give a big advantage percentage wise over rank 9s. All they are doing now is reducing the gap between bis and new 70s. On live it isnt even in the same ball park. The negative consequences can be felt across the whole game, pvp pve and economy. This is really their only option. I wish they would have increased the level cap before artifact equipment but it is what it is.
My point too!
Like I couldn't do the same with my GWF!
Run to that kind of mobs with my GWF and couldn't kill everything w/o any healer and just lifesteal+endless comp. is keeping me alive!
Well, to me, not having a dependency on a healer is a strong selling point. The majority of MMOs since EQ1 have relied on the trinity of healer, dps, tank. And it's gotten old. Very old. Pushing the game in that direction is a step back.
A good design is to not have a dependency on any class - just having 5 reasonably competent players should be sufficient. I realize not everyone will agree with this, but that's what I'm looking for in an MMO.
the problem is the change they are doing are mainly to play 5 paladin's party or 5 healer's party or 5 TR'S party. GWF and GF already out , CW probably follow (this part mainly depend of life steal change since the change done for v4 mainly imply a one way to play CW), SW probably also in big trouble
So with a gradient around 1/700 we have a break even point around 19k Crit Rating.
This thread is about the Rating curves for Mod6. So lets stay there.
The devs wanted another behaviour when i remember correctly. It is no secret why.
The Ratings doubled since relase. The endgame optimization is very easy... hit the (often miscalculated) so called "softcap" and then dump into power. Some classes avoid Ratings like ArP. A optimized PvE GWF player will calll you an ArP-softcap of 1855. Every point more is kind of wasted! But now the game will change. All Items give more stats. With more I mean much much more. Companions will give this 15% buff, artifacts, enchants... we will be "encouraged" to spend <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.000.000 AD for better Ratings. I expect an increase of about 50-100%. When the Ratings really have a linear effect (no proof for 19k Crit Rating yet^^) every Rating point has such an (dont forget return-on-investment calc) effect on DPS like Power nowadays. Of course all curves are different for each level like the one for power. No surprise.
//Bellistor
Please don't. I'm pretending this is a bad dream.
I'm particularly worried about things that are entirely internal to the character, as opposed to measures of how they interact with the world. Defense dropping? High level mobs hit proportionately harder, I can deal. Crit dropping? High level mobs are harder to crit- again, I can deal.
Things like recovery and regen, though, things that are 100% internal in their impact? That's jarring.
Now, I suspect the plan with mod6 is, in fact, to introduce those stat curves across the board and adjust all the 60- content accordingly. I certainly hope it is, as that will leave the existing campaign content quite playable if you feel like going back and grinding for the 0.1%-of-a-stat boons.
Source