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The Battle with Tiamat - Moving Forward

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  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    It seems like if things don't look like a slam dunk right off the first round, the "oh so L33T" players bail, which kills it for everyone.

    Any chance we could have a 24hr Tiamat ban for players that leave before the 10 minute mark or spend more 2 minutes at the foyer, or stay 'dead' on the battlefield? That should at least keep people fighting.

    You do realize that maybe 15% of runs bug out so that there is nothing to do but sit at the campfire right?
  • palad1npalad1n Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    PWE, please, please, PLEASE, fix this freakin fight. I'm ready to dump this game for good. I'm so sick of going into fights with people that shouldn't be there (whether due to gear, afk, leave early, WHATEVER) and then doing nothing but LOSING Tiamat fights all day. I currently spent my evening losing 5 Tiamat fights in a row due to these issues. I won't say it's completely a GS issue, yet I am confused as to why the minimum GS for ELOL and ESOT are 13k and it's only 10k for Tiamat? Please fix this, I guarantee you you are burning bridges with your players.
  • cambo1682cambo1682 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 164 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    palad1n2 wrote: »
    PWE, please, please, PLEASE, fix this freakin fight. I'm ready to dump this game for good. I'm so sick of going into fights with people that shouldn't be there (whether due to gear, afk, leave early, WHATEVER) and then doing nothing but LOSING Tiamat fights all day. I currently spent my evening losing 5 Tiamat fights in a row due to these issues. I won't say it's completely a GS issue, yet I am confused as to why the minimum GS for ELOL and ESOT are 13k and it's only 10k for Tiamat? Please fix this, I guarantee you you are burning bridges with your players.

    The bridges aren't burning, they've gone up in smoke. I'd hoped common sense would have kicked in at Cryptic. People play games to have fun. This encounter has potential to be fun, in it's present state it is anything but fun. Not being able to party up and enter with guildies or friends was yet another sign the developers have lost touch with their players. It saddens me to see so many people just say "***-- it" and not bother logging in. My guild has always been bustling and thriving, particularly on weekends. This past Saturday evening there were 4 players on. People have already stopped playing...and if they're not playing they're definitely not paying. I've not seen another peep about this encounter from the devs since the first 'patch' which amounted to a broken promise followed up with weak excuses. I've sunk a fair amount of money into this game, can't say I'm really interested in spending one more $ until it looks like it may survive. Fixing the bugs would be a good start, but reconfiguring it to accept grouped players (ie not splitting friends at the entrance) is critical. Anything less and it will continue to be a show stopper for me.
  • jhozamjhozam Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 44
    edited January 2015
    Hi all,
    first of all, sorry for my poor english, don't blame me if I make too many blunders :P
    My main char is a GWF 21k GS, I just did with blood and tears my 2nd boon on final Tyranny of the Dragons and I have some suggestions for devs, because really I average a success in five attempts.
    1) 10k GS to enter is too low, if you dont want to change anything to the encounter, i think it need to be raised to 15k. People will cry? It's not my problem, they can run lower DGs to equip their chars, then can run Tiamat.
    In my opinion if you say 10k GS is sufficient to win the encounter, it means that 25 chars ALL with 10k GS can finish it. Try to test that, probably, if they can overcome the phase of clerics (and i think NO), they do not pass the first Black head. So 10k GS to enter is WRONG.
    2) Ok you want to keep 10k GS to enter (because people really cry a lot) so you can use a ranking for the encounter. If the encounter will fail, almost who has contributed a good supply of DPS (say the first 5-6) can get a linu's favor.
    3) You do not want anything above. Ok: let us forming party so.
    Thank you all, sorry if I do not speak English too well
    Jhozam
    Jhozam, DDO player since March 2006 (2006-2009 on Devourer server, 2009-2012 on Cannith server)
    Proud Officer of Ordo Draconis, DDO Italian Elite Guild
    now up on Neverwinter Online, member of Ordo Obscuri Domini, Italian Guild
  • hellratedhellrated Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    I hope the requirements to get the books needed for the last few Tyranny of Dragons campaign boons get reduced. The requirements at the campaign store is just too much. Currently require 100 of each campaign token just to get 1 book :confused:, and don't even get me started on the drop rate of the "first two" books while the drop rate of the third book (giving by doing tiamat) is pretty good..
    In-game Characters:
    Raba Leo - 16k GWF | Raba Dharma - 15.5k CW | Raba Chanda - 15k TR | Raba Karma - 14k HR
    PURE F2P, so far..
  • hellratedhellrated Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    palad1n2 wrote: »
    PWE, please, please, PLEASE, fix this freakin fight. I'm ready to dump this game for good. I'm so sick of going into fights with people that shouldn't be there (whether due to gear, afk, leave early, WHATEVER) and then doing nothing but LOSING Tiamat fights all day. I currently spent my evening losing 5 Tiamat fights in a row due to these issues. I won't say it's completely a GS issue, yet I am confused as to why the minimum GS for ELOL and ESOT are 13k and it's only 10k for Tiamat? Please fix this, I guarantee you you are burning bridges with your players.

    Ya, what i suggest is have a minimum GS (about 13-14k) requirement or better yet, what if there was a requirement for players to at least finish 2-3 out of 5 campaigns/modules before entering "well of dragons".
    In-game Characters:
    Raba Leo - 16k GWF | Raba Dharma - 15.5k CW | Raba Chanda - 15k TR | Raba Karma - 14k HR
    PURE F2P, so far..
  • jhozamjhozam Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 44
    edited January 2015
    magenubbie wrote: »
    <snip> If you can't figure that out for yourself, I suggest simply refraining from posting period.

    I gladly accept that you disagree with my ideas. But I also think to be free to write my thoughts.
    Thank You
    Jhozam, DDO player since March 2006 (2006-2009 on Devourer server, 2009-2012 on Cannith server)
    Proud Officer of Ordo Draconis, DDO Italian Elite Guild
    now up on Neverwinter Online, member of Ordo Obscuri Domini, Italian Guild
  • loboguildloboguild Member Posts: 2,371 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    If you're 21k and have a success rate of 20% I'd strongly recommend joining one out the high GS channels and use their timers.

    The only fails I'm getting are due to bugs.
  • frishterfrishter Member Posts: 3,522 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    jhozam wrote: »
    I gladly accept that you disagree with my ideas. But I also think to be free to write my thoughts.
    Thank You

    You'd think that wouldn't you (to an extent). Not the case unfortunately.
  • jhozamjhozam Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 44
    edited January 2015
    loboguild wrote: »
    If you're 21k and have a success rate of 20% I'd strongly recommend joining one out the high GS channels and use their timers.

    The only fails I'm getting are due to bugs.

    I did, but unfortunately the loading times are bad.
    What I do not understand is why having a channel-only 20k+ (where people try to exclude low levels) is not selfish, but my proposals are :)
    Jhozam, DDO player since March 2006 (2006-2009 on Devourer server, 2009-2012 on Cannith server)
    Proud Officer of Ordo Draconis, DDO Italian Elite Guild
    now up on Neverwinter Online, member of Ordo Obscuri Domini, Italian Guild
  • jiubiizeekkjiubiizeekk Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 144 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    The way you've said it makes all high tire players seem like they dont like progression if it was 15k + it would be 90% chance of winning 10% bugged, honestly the only problem is people cant seem to use their class with the instance in mind. A 10k DC using full buffs and debuffs is better than a 20k that is only healing everyone. And vice versa, a 21k GWF might be built for pvp with low dps, where as a 15k GWF might be built for pve with high dps, you tell me whats better in this "race against time" U cant judge a book by the cover your arrogance will be your undoing that's why people don't like when people talk with their wallets.
  • jhozamjhozam Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild Users Posts: 44
    edited January 2015
    I think I just said what the rest of the people do but quietly with dedicated channels or private messages before the encounter start
    Jhozam, DDO player since March 2006 (2006-2009 on Devourer server, 2009-2012 on Cannith server)
    Proud Officer of Ordo Draconis, DDO Italian Elite Guild
    now up on Neverwinter Online, member of Ordo Obscuri Domini, Italian Guild
  • query523query523 Member Posts: 1,515 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Really you folks are treating two related problems as if they were two seperate problems. Basically at this point Tiamat is the only PVE content where GS matters. In all other content you can choose your team because you can que as a group. This means that you can take people based on your experience of their competance for literally everything in the game except Tiamat. Sopeople will continue to use high GS channels for timed entry. Because while it might not get your whole team into the same instance it will get 8-12 high GS players into your instance. Meaning the other 17-13 player will have a statistically average GS distribution.Meaning that the odds of clearing the instance will go up dramatically on raw stats because you cannot plan for competance or coordination or... planning. You can only attempt to overwhelm the possibilty of having incompetence with raw power. This is Mod5 endgame content.
  • frishterfrishter Member Posts: 3,522 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    The way you've said it makes all high tire players seem like they dont like progression if it was 15k + it would be 90% chance of winning 10% bugged, honestly the only problem is people cant seem to use their class with the instance in mind. A 10k DC using full buffs and debuffs is better than a 20k that is only healing everyone. And vice versa, a 21k GWF might be built for pvp with low dps, where as a 15k GWF might be built for pve with high dps, you tell me whats better in this "race against time" U cant judge a book by the cover your arrogance will be your undoing that's why people don't like when people talk with their wallets.

    And a 20k DC using debuffs is better than a 10k using debuffs. What's your point? It's more likely that the 20k would be doing so as they've invested more into their character, whereas the 10k hasn't been playing that character for as long, and if they have then they clearly have no idea what they're doing.

    15k is a little on the high side though, but min requires should be getting higher. It's just common sense.
  • glartyglarty Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 123 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    There haven't been any updates to the preview shard for a month now.
    So you will have to be patient for anything to change in this game at the moment.
  • covenant92covenant92 Member, Neverwinter Beta Users Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Welp, I just got booted from a winning Tiamat Instance into a failed Instance in the last 2 minutes.

    Fantastic servers we have here on Neverwinter with this Tiamat fight. :/
  • poisoncloudpoisoncloud Member Posts: 489 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    And to think how many times less Tiamat would fail if only they would give time for one more wave of clerics/heads...
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    And to think how many times less Tiamat would fail if only they would give time for one more wave of clerics/heads...

    ..... That so isn't the problem. There is nothing inherently wrong with the time limit that is there. Lets try for bug fixes here not screaming nerf it. It's not like it's even hard content.
  • borwynalmearaborwynalmeara Member Posts: 7 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    charononus wrote: »
    You do realize that maybe 15% of runs bug out so that there is nothing to do but sit at the campfire right?

    Ok, so 15% bugged. I've seen that, had it happen to me as well.

    Out of the other 85% I'd guess 20-40% more would be viable to win if everyone kept fighting rather than complaining and standing at the door typing, "stoooooopppppp, it's over" after the first complete cleric/head round. They'd actually be, as others have said, the most memorable fights.

    Don't get me wrong, I love the fights where we are basically waiting for the devils to spawn and it's over (victoriously) in the late second or early third round, and that's when there's a majority of high GS players.
    If there can be only one, why do they always make a sequel?
  • poisoncloudpoisoncloud Member Posts: 489 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Overall it seems smoother indeed but from time to time I still encounter lags in Tiamat, especially at heads. Similar lags also hit at Heralds, e.g. Black Dragons give me a huge lag just when passing them by even if noone is fighting them at the moment. The other dragons seem to cause lag in connection with some skill/debuff used only (although with 30+ of those stacked it's hard to guess which could it be).
  • hustin1hustin1 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,462 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    I just had a really weird Tiamat run.

    We killed the dragon heads with about three seconds to spare. Everything freezes for a couple of seconds, then we hear "No! I cannot be stopped!" which signifies that we ran out of time on that phase (there was still three minutes left on the overall raid timer). The clerics tell us she's coming back, but then...

    The clerics are cheering, and no more adds come. I get a "Contest Finished" popup (which includes a Draconic Templar armor piece). However, the adds that were there when we killed the heads are still there, and we dispatch them. No one can open the chest, and in three minutes Elminster turns back time and we get a "failed" message.

    I can't even begin to explain this one.
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  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    hustin1 wrote: »
    I just had a really weird Tiamat run.

    We killed the dragon heads with about three seconds to spare. Everything freezes for a couple of seconds, then we hear "No! I cannot be stopped!" which signifies that we ran out of time on that phase (there was still three minutes left on the overall raid timer). The clerics tell us she's coming back, but then...

    The clerics are cheering, and no more adds come. I get a "Contest Finished" popup (which includes a Draconic Templar armor piece). However, the adds that were there when we killed the heads are still there, and we dispatch them. No one can open the chest, and in three minutes Elminster turns back time and we get a "failed" message.

    I can't even begin to explain this one.

    The last head needs to die with at least 10 secs or so to spare or the animation doesn't finish and it bugs.
  • notzefronznotzefronz Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Well, i wittnessed 6 attempts on this "challenge" now. Everytime i ended up with 25 random people who rarely had a higher gearscore than mine (which is about 16.6k). We lost all battles. Since i have not been playing this encounter often, i am only able to give some first impressions. First of all: The encounter feels "lazy". Enemies superhard, Players superweak, done. Invisble AoE can one shot 30k+ HP players in an instant.
    Nobody - in any of the few encounters i played - seemed to have ANY idea what to do. Let's get to the left everyone, hit some guy, press "F" and get some stuff (which magically replaces your healing potions in their slot). Then go and run for some dudes, kill them and last but not least let's protect some clerics.
    Let's run to the middle, because for some reason there seems to be some devil-gathering-camp.
    So everyone fights devils (who don't have any problems to beat down 10k GS players with one hit). Some of us pop healing potions. Some don't. They pop dragonsouls instead. At least we feel protected now, while we get beaten up by a bunch of almost unkillable devils.

    And so the battle continues and those who are not on cooldown to pop dragonsouls, when fighting the head (of course, the left one first), actually pop the dragonsoul to get protection. Sometimes it's even the right dragonsoul per head.

    Meanwhile i for myself completely fail to understand the situation. It's chaos, no communication, no coordination, nothing that would help me - as the confused player i am - to master this encounter with the random folks i have met with. Because there isn't any teaming, at least none i was able to notice. We all go for everything and the status bars on the right are not very helpful, since players do not interpret them equally. Those with more experience might be able to do that. A team of 25 able to SPEAK or chat with each others might be able to do that. But a random group of people who spend much of their time at the respawning-point because they are easily killed will not be able to do that, at least not in the short timeframe for this encounter.

    No. This isn't a 10k GS encounter nor does it work as a teamevent of any sort if strangers meet. If so, then devs are either awesome players or never tested this.

    Another thing that really bugs me is this reclaimation-thingy. Ok, even if you are not playing this day, you might as well donate some coins for helping other players in this "challenge". It's ok for me, since in return i get 1 (in words: ONE) linus favor for 1500 dragon hoardcoins.
    My favourite hobby in this game is killing dragons. Such encounters give you about 5 coins (average). So you only need to kill around 4500 dragons and can then buy an offhand-artifact weapon of your choice, yay! I am aware, there's the dragonhoard-coffer-alternative. Nevermind, just as tedious.
    So while it's possible to donate coins to help other players (and unlock better rewards in case they actually WIN the encounter) the daily price for this is simply over the top, if not on the best way to insanity.

    Just my two cents.
  • jumboyetjumboyet Member Posts: 211 Bounty Hunter
    edited January 2015
    I never though i would say this playing an MMO. But it would be nice if you could do this "raid" with our friends
  • poisoncloudpoisoncloud Member Posts: 489 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Dragons in the Well of Dragons give 10-15 coins per kill, which, of course, does not make grinding Linus considerably faster, just a cosmetic difference.
    The invisible 1-hitting aoe is probably Blue head attack which can hit miles away from its circle (and twice at that) because of how awesomely it has been programmed.
    No, I don't think devs are awesome players. As for them testing stuff, it reminds me of dragon overload enchantments which could only be tested by devs before going live and they apparently never were till they turned up to be a major screwover of the gameplay.
  • notzefronznotzefronz Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Dragons in the Well of Dragons give 10-15 coins per kill, which, of course, does not make grinding Linus considerably faster, just a cosmetic difference.
    The invisible 1-hitting aoe is probably Blue head attack which can hit miles away from its circle (and twice at that) because of how awesomely it has been programmed.
    No, I don't think devs are awesome players. As for them testing stuff, it reminds me of dragon overload enchantments which could only be tested by devs before going live and they apparently never were till they turned up to be a major screwover of the gameplay.

    Oh, i am so used to the unrewarding experience of killing dragons in this game, that in fact i never noticed it's that MANY dragon hoard coins you can get in the well of dragons :D Anyway, when dragons are up in WoD and a bazillion of players hunts them as fast as possible, it feels to me like watching a flip-book. The lag i experience in those hunts is incredible, which is why i don't often go for dragons there.

    I have not yet figured out what the invisible AoE's source might be, but you are probably right, that it's one of the heads. Other annoyances there are those staggering effects on the players, while enemies happily hit 25000 HP out of them. The entire fight feels poorly made (regarding the enemies) yet utterly expensive for the players who waste time/energy/potions and injury kits on it, well knowing, that it's a lost encounter again.
  • katamaster81899katamaster81899 Member Posts: 1,157 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    Ok, I can't believe it took me this long to see that they are not planning to move over to a queue as I have been waiting to do Tiamat once they implemented one.

    Even if they do not add a queue, something needs to be done, here's why:

    This is an MMO
    MMO's are games we play with friends
    Tiamat is a raid
    Raids are played with friends and guildies
    In Neverwinter, raids are played with PUGs that like bugging your instance


    At least, give us the option to enter with our current party into the same instance, even if there isn't a queue. I mean for god's sake, this is ridiculous
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    || Axios Guild Leader || Neverwinter Trade Forum Moderator || Infernal Paragons ||
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  • jahrynjahryn Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    How about make Tiamat a minimum 16k GS .. problem solved.
  • charononuscharononus Member Posts: 5,715 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    jahryn wrote: »
    How about make Tiamat a minimum 16k GS .. problem solved.

    While 10kgs is probably too low considering that you can't premake parties. 16kgs is just as stupid but in the other direction.
  • katamaster81899katamaster81899 Member Posts: 1,157 Arc User
    edited January 2015
    I'm going to commit to posting in this thread every day until some action is taken about this pugging business.
    dulopa4e1d9.png
    || Axios Guild Leader || Neverwinter Trade Forum Moderator || Infernal Paragons ||
    Check out my foundry, titled "Akro's Gone Wacko", featuring our ex-CM Akromatik!: NW-DL8J7BY5T
    Erza Moonstalker | Lara Moonstalker | Julie Marvell | Erza Moonhunter | Annie Hellangel | Jenn Moonstalker
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