If you realy need to fix/nerf/whatever TR.
I think best solution will be to limit DoTs and Piercing damage in PVP (half damage),
SoD should not stack from the same source (eg. PotB multiple hits, at-wills, plaguefire, etc).
Please do something with SoD before it goes live,
we want TR to be better in PVE, just dont break it
Still I think we need more love if you limit SoD,
TR without SoD compared to other classes is still poor striker in PVE.
If you realy need to fix/nerf/whatever TR.
I think best solution will be to limit DoTs and Piercing damage in PVP (half damage),
SoD should not stack from the same source (eg. PotB multiple hits, at-wills, plaguefire, etc).
Please do something with SoD before it goes live,
we want TR to be better in PVE, just dont break it
Still I think we need more love if you limit SoD,
TR without SoD compared to other classes is still poor striker in PVE.
after tons of testing this day i can agree, stacking is not OP in itself but path of blade stacking , at wills stacking, plague fire stacking is bad. and absolutely need a cap !!!
( or not stacking at all )
has high levels pulls do not last long enough to appreciate the stack.
It is in the bosses where atwill increase your damage insane levels (as a SW)
I see no problem in that atwills activate shadow dismisse. The problem are the stacks.
has high levels pulls do not last long enough to appreciate the stack.
It is in the bosses where atwill increase your damage insane levels (as a SW)
I see no problem in that atwills activate shadow dismisse. The problem are the stacks.
The real problem is passive stacking, d.strike path of the blade dots enchants.
with those you basically gain infinite stack in 5 sec
The real problem is passive stacking, d.strike path of the blade dots enchants.
with those you basically gain infinite stack in 5 sec
Why not implement the 15sec rule? I mean, OWTS is 15sec, so is Skull Cracker. Then obviously, SoD could be 15sec procs and that would simply prevent any stacking issues, as well as introduce a need to manage and time its use, just like OWTS and Skull Cracker needs to be timed well, instead of just wasted.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Yes, please please please please do something to SoD. While it may help get TR damage where it needs to be for PvE to be competitive, it is absolutely game breaking in PvP. The damage is completely out of line when combining it with DoT type attacks (Path of the Blade, Disheartening Strike, Duelist Fury). The standard PvP perma-immune setup is by far still extremely viable for all paths to allow for so much damage without being at risk to your opponent. That being said, rogue is still very much a 1 or 2 mistake = dead class, so it should have higher damage, but ultimately this is by far too out of line.
Can we have Mocking Gesture changed? I can't see any reason to take it: 10% deflection as often as we can go into stealth just is not that amazing at all, and it doesn't really fit with the daze-focused style of Scoundrels.
I'd like to suggest:
Mocking Gesture be changed to: Striking a dazed target with an at-will grants 1/2/3/4/5% of the Scoundrel's stealth meter.
This:
1) makes it actually play well with the daze style of the Scoundrel
2) Gets the Scoundrel into stealth more often: now that Executioners can't lose stealth from hits and also gain stealth 20% faster, Scoundrels get to stealth the least, and it just feels bad to play the path relative to the others. I want to use Tab if I'm a Scoundrel, too.
Or, perhaps:
Mocking Gesture: Striking a dazed target with an at-will grants 2/4/6/8/10% Stamina.
This:
1) Gives the Scoundrel extra slipperiness and tankiness through extra dodges
2) Gets the Scoundrel into stealth more often if the TR has taken the feat granting stealth on roll. See 2) above.
Bug: Smokebomb There is a short (~1 sec) delay between activation animation/sound effects and daze/damage Please fix this, it slows down the scoundrel gameplay
The whole idea of being a Scoundrel is that you make up for your weak moments by CCing your opponent, and thus buying enough time for crucial stealth powers like SS to recharge -- hence managing the timing on how you tactically lay out Concussive Strikes and Skull Cracker becomes the very essence of "learning to play a Scoundrel". Asking for a stealth filler on TOP of our efficient stealth capabilities is just way too much.
(ps) Mocking Gesture is also much more important than you might realize, although I won't explain it here.
(ps2) With your idea in works, Scoundrel's would just go auto-stealth by simply using Smoke Bomb and/or PotB. Smoke itself will proc Skull Cracker and daze targets for 6s -- over which time all targets are effected. You have 5 mobs in there and that's 4 ticks of 5% x5 targets -- one smoke, and in a few secs you're back to full stealth meter. Something like this shouldn't be allowed.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
The whole idea of being a Scoundrel is that you make up for your weak moments by CCing your opponent, and thus buying enough time for crucial stealth powers like SS to recharge -- hence managing the timing on how you tactically lay out Concussive Strikes and Skull Cracker becomes the very essence of "learning to play a Scoundrel". Asking for a stealth filler on TOP of our efficient stealth capabilities is just way too much.
(ps) Mocking Gesture is also much more important than you might realize, although I won't explain it here.
(ps2) With your idea in works, Scoundrel's would just go auto-stealth by simply using Smoke Bomb and/or PotB. Smoke itself will proc Skull Cracker and daze targets for 6s -- over which time all targets are effected. You have 5 mobs in there and that's 4 ticks of 5% x5 targets -- one smoke, and in a few secs you're back to full stealth meter. Something like this shouldn't be allowed.
i calced it once and slotting shadow strike to benefit from a stealthed lashing blade is about on-par with just slotting a dps encounter instead. dps encounters just seems more worth it in the long run since they can benefit the team more.
i don't really understand how mocking gesture is useful in pvp. i generally use nearly all of my stealth bar just to approach with 45% run speed so i probably have a few seconds left. whoever i hit is gonna be dazed due to skullcapper so it has little usage in 1 vs 1. i know pvp is more about groups and i am ganked a lot, but it doesn't change the fact that it's dependent on being ganked for value.
pve i can probably benefit from most of the 10 seconds if my team is not depending on me for preemptive strikes on mob groups. but in pve i tend to be a mass daze spammer since my groups usually benefits a lot from dazing dragons. considering i also use frost enchant.....i probably get no value from it in pve as well. i also don't gamble with deadly aoes so if i have the stamina, i will dodge them.
I meant striking an opponent with at-will powers. Obviously Bloodbath refilling stealth completely, or AoE abilities doing so, or DoT powers, would be completely OP.
What do you think of granting stamina instead?
You admitted yourself in the "How to fight HRs" thread that Sab is simply more powerful than Scoundrel. Why shouldn't all of the paragons be equally powerful, just in their different respective areas?
The big disbalance with the paragons is:
Executioner is damage with a side of stealth
Sab is perma stealth with a side of extra damage
Scoundrel is just dazes
Why don't Scoundrels get a "with a side of _____"?
Scoundrel is not juat extra dazes, its dazes every 5 seconda which last least 2.5 seconds and give you 30 per cent more damage.
Its the path with the high deflect and good amount of lifesteal and the only Path where duelist flurry is still a viable choice.
More over is the only tr that can effectively kill a hr
The new tr is so well developed that every trees seems a sub class
Again devs:
Bug: shadow of demise is being resisted and stacking.
Shocking execution is being resisted and dodged.
I m ok with shocking being resisted and dodged but it needs a little higher damage buff or just fox the tooltip to states that now it does not ignore defences anymore.
You admitted yourself in the "How to fight HRs" thread that Sab is simply more powerful than Scoundrel.
I didn't say "Sab is simply more powerful than Scoundrel". I said, "the HR's biggest enemy is the Wk/Sab".
Why shouldn't all of the paragons be equally powerful, just in their different respective areas?
Er.. they already are.
The big disbalance with the paragons is:
Executioner is damage with a side of stealth
Sab is perma stealth with a side of extra damage
Scoundrel is just dazes
The dazes itself are a source of damage -- 50% damage buff with Skull Cracker and Low Blows. Not to mention the CC itself it one of the most powerful tools in game. I think I've more than proved to a lot of people time after time how "just dazes" can be used with deadly efficiency.
Why don't Scoundrels get a "with a side of _____"?
Because we don't need it? I think.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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jessiefloraMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 21Arc User
The changes still aren't fun. I already wrote a small novel on this.
Nothing in these changes has convinced me yet to not just gear up my HR instead. I play my TR on live and I have fun with him, and then I just get depressed and go back to my CW or HR because that playstyle I like is going away.
We haven't gained nearly enough in PvE to justify this mess or the stealth nerf.
No, I don't care about PvP, or PvP balance. I will indeed keep harping on PvE. It's what I play. It's what I enjoy. It's what keeps getting put under a bus in the name of PvP. I'm tired.
Thank you for posting about PvE. I too am tired of PvP issues ruining PvE TR play. And when I get depressed I play my CW and try to enjoy it. ( I didn't realise just how badly PvP considerations had ruined TR PvE play until I levelled a CW; the difference is ridiculous). I'm also giving SW a try because it seems the PvP bus is out of control. I'm not so concerned about the changes to stealth per se but I am concerned that the trade-off is not fair - not enough was given to replace it. I think survivability is the concern.
I think some of the paragon path special tree features need some changes and place changing
Whisperknife
- Distracting Knife should be in Executioner tree since its damage
- Seething Knives should be in Saboteur tree since its mainly a stealth refill type
- Determined Pursuit should be in Scoundrel since its a control type
MI
- Sabo and Exe feats are fine, I think Press the Advantage should be changed though. 10% power is not even a 5% damage increase with 5k power. Its also the control and deflect tree. I would change it to "Impossible to Catch now deflects with x% more severity" or just more deflection severity.
Scoundrel is not juat extra dazes, its dazes every 5 seconda which last least 2.5 seconds and give you 30 per cent more damage.
Its the path with the high deflect and good amount of lifesteal and the only Path where duelist flurry is still a viable choice.
More over is the only tr that can effectively kill a hr
The new tr is so well developed that every trees seems a sub class
Again devs:
Bug: shadow of demise is being resisted and stacking.
Shocking execution is being resisted and dodged.
I m ok with shocking being resisted and dodged but it needs a little higher damage buff or just fox the tooltip to states that now it does not ignore defences anymore.
I like the idea of a SE that can be dodged and does resistible damage too, but it should be a lot of resistible damage, IMO that's what SE should have been in the first place. In this case tank classes don't get confetti-ed by damage they have no way to avoid, and softer classes have the opportunity to dodge. Killing someone through a CC daily combo is completely fine, and TR is NOT the only class that can one-rotate people doing so. If your going to say that a CC blood bath combo is OP, this you also need to say hateful knifes needs to be nerfed too. Becuase you can set up HK combos that do just as much damage and much more, and are just as unavoidable as daze/BB. Like HK -> Lashing blade -> Dazing strike -> COS barrage. If the HK hits, which, it's kinda hard to avoid a 80ft range prone from stealth, then the lashing, dazing, COS dmg is guaranteed, and much of it cannot be deflected or broken out of with a CC break, unlike daze/BB.
You need to rate Daily powers on their FULL effects rather than just their damage. GWF/GF indomitable strength prones as well as does damage and has a very fast activation but is melee range. Ice knife prones and adds chill stacks in addition to range. DC flame strike has very tricky targeted, but prones, fast activation, and range as well(target lock helps a lot). HR Disruptive shot is useable from less than full AP and is a fast activation ranged CC.
SE and blood bath have medium range and have no CC effects. SE is slow activation, BB is multi-hit over a few seconds, which gives people a chance to soak up it's damage if they are not CCed or break CC. BB has immunity frames true, but the situations where you are making use of those immunity frames are not when your dealing solid damage with it. For example, if you are facing multiple opponents or your encounters and stealth are depleted, that's when you could use a immunity frame, and BB won't do sht for damage without stealth. A daily without considerations like fast activation, range, CC effects, should deal great damage. IMO the immunity frames of BB are much more useful if you are using it in PVE, or out of stealth in PVP, rather than it being a crucial benefit to the daily when actually trying to deal damage with it.
Shadowy Opportunity procing on every hit of Blood bath deals too much un-mitagatable damage and should really only proc once or twice during this daily.
Shocking execution either needs to have base damage equal to M4 and deal unresistable damage, or it needs to deal FAR more damage than is currently on preview and be resistible and dodge-able. I would much prefer the latter as it would be an improvement in PVE.
Shadow of demise is key to balancing the Exe feat path. We have seen it go from over-powered and rife with exploits to completely underwhelming, and back again. If SOD only procs on encounters, has an unlimited target cap, and has a 8-10 second cool-down I feel that it would put the Exe path on the same level as Sab/Scoundrel and stamp out any exploitable damage.
Scoundrel damage is a bit lower than Exe/Sab and the CC boost is primarily useful in terms of single target and PVP. The life-steal/deflect feats need to be boosted to put this path on the right track.
Dex is still an underwhelming stat and un-worthy to be a rogue's primary attribute. At it's current level it is just good enough for me to not re-roll my base stats but avoid putting any more points into it than I have to. It's not that dex gives too little benefits, it's that dex gives benefits that most rogues are not going to find very functional/useful in actual gameplay.
On Dis-heartening strike, I would not say that this at-will is too powerful per se. It certainly is not over-powered in PVE or in PVP against targets with high DR and regeneration. However, in certain situations in PVP it can rack up a lot of damage on a soft target with very little risk to the rogue, and very little change for his target to avoid that damage. DHS should not receive a straight up nerf, however, it needs to be adjusted in terms of risk vs raw damage vs a soft target while maintaining it's useability in PVE and against tougher classes.
On the PVE/PVP side of things, PVE is looking good with some adjustments and some room for slight improvement. PVP in general is looking good as well with a few glaring issues that sticky out like a sore thumb. I really don't mind for the rogue class to be on the weak side in PVP, it's fun playing the underdog. I am looking forward to having a presence in PVE for a change as a rogue to the extent that words cannot express. If balancing needs to happen in PVP I'm all for that but please don't leave us neglected in PVE as we have been since Mod 1. If there needs to be a PVE/PVP separation of abilities I'm all for that too.
Thank you devs for your hard work and patience, really excited for M5, keep up the good work!
Why would they make such drastic and gamebreaking changes 3 (!!!) days before mod5 release?? And within those 3 days, we dont hear a word from the Devs..
I would probably be concerned with picking the executioner path as we realize it needs to be adjusted and may be overdone when it is, but then again how long has the SW 1 million damage in a second melt everything in the room bug been around. I am going to go scoundrel and probably a WK too, I am a little worried that in PvE I will have much less control than a CW and deal about half their damage with maybe the same survivability or less and quite a bit more limited -- but the path is too fun to pass up.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited November 2014
Oh dear, that executioner capstone seems... not good. Or too good. Same thing, really.
Greetings Adventurers!
We haven’t really been happy with the position the Rogue has been in for quite a while now, so we wanted to take a long hard look at their mechanics and adjust some of them to make a more rewarding experience and create some distinct play styles. To that end we have made a lot of power tweaks, adjusted Stealth, and created 3 brand new feat trees.
Overview
Before we talk about the other changes, let’s talk about the big one. Perma-stealth is going to get much harder to play. We don’t really like the gameplay of “invisible attacker dealing steady damage” because the cases for counterplay are limited and require more skill to fight against than we feel is appropriate. Therefore we made two major changes to stealth. Firstly it will drain a little bit when you attack from stealth. To compensate for this you will get 100% critical chance while stealthed. We want stealth in Neverwinter to move towards a quick burst in power that rewards smart play to confuse foes, rather than an effect you can keep up indefinitely.
....
Every feat tree/paragon path is able to maintain perma-stealth at this point. It's almost easier than in previous modules.
I would probably be concerned with picking the executioner path as we realize it needs to be adjusted and may be overdone when it is, but then again how long has the SW 1 million damage in a second melt everything in the room bug been around. I am going to go scoundrel and probably a WK too, I am a little worried that in PvE I will have much less control than a CW and deal about half their damage with maybe the same survivability or less and quite a bit more limited -- but the path is too fun to pass up.
I'm probably going to end up as a MI Sabotuer regardless of what happens in the next couple of days too. Suits my playstyle ideal of a sword wielding assassin the best. Functionally I have some very fun rotations I can do as a Sabotuer that I just can't do as a Scoundrel/Exe. Speaking of themes, "Sabotuer" would suggest Spy/scout/disruption behind enemy lines rather than direct combat. Certainly a facet of the pen n paper rogue, but doesn't really have a place in neverwinter. When I think of "rogue" combat styles, the first three things that come to mind are alley brawler, professional assassin, and swashbuckling duelist(like the three musketeers). As far as fighting goes, I don't really see how "Sabotuer", and "Executioner" would be much different. As described in page one "sustained damage" vs "deadly burst" doesn't really hold true IMO.
I'm probably going to end up as a MI Sabotuer regardless of what happens in the next couple of days too. Suits my playstyle ideal of a sword wielding assassin the best. Functionally I have some very fun rotations I can do as a Sabotuer that I just can't do as a Scoundrel/Exe. Speaking of themes, "Sabotuer" would suggest Spy/scout/disruption behind enemy lines rather than direct combat. Certainly a facet of the pen n paper rogue, but doesn't really have a place in neverwinter. When I think of "rogue" combat styles, the first three things that come to mind are alley brawler, professional assassin, and swashbuckling duelist(like the three musketeers). As far as fighting goes, I don't really see how "Sabotuer", and "Executioner" would be much different. As described in page one "sustained damage" vs "deadly burst" doesn't really hold true IMO.
the problem is that the brawler part is missing so i would rather stick to refilling encounters and some damages rather than dead
A problem with Scoundrel is against a CC immune mob its damage drops by a large amount.
And it is not even that much more survivable compared the other two paths dazes that don't work against some mobs compared to 20% more stealth regeneration or perma-stealth.
A problem with Scoundrel is against a CC immune mob its damage drops by a large amount.
And it is not even that much more survivable compared the other two paths dazes that don't work against some mobs compared to 20% more stealth regeneration or perma-stealth.
I would like to see the scoundrel capstone changed to either a stun or a daze that can affect some (normally) daze immune targets. I also think the survivability is lacking and that maybe Mocking Gesture could add .5/1/1.5/2/2.5% more Deflect Chance and 1.5/3/4.5/6/7.5% Deflect Chance for 10 seconds after entering stealth.
A problem with Scoundrel is against a CC immune mob its damage drops by a large amount.
And it is not even that much more survivable compared the other two paths dazes that don't work against some mobs compared to 20% more stealth regeneration or perma-stealth.
yeah, scoundrel is fun, but against CC inmune targets things get rough.
I've been playing with scoundrel in preview, I'll test sab or exe now and see how are things.
I'd rather have an immunity coming out of stealth or something that will actually help them survive in PvP. I love the tree and I'm going to stick with it, but I'll be in for a hurtin' most likely. I'm competive but the PvE side of me is starting to win over the PvP. It's just not consistently fun enough for me to do as often. So getting smoked isn't going to bruise my ego.
I would also rather it be something protective leaving stealth but I thought this path needed a bit more deflection (maybe) and figured it needed to be a higher tier feat and just put it there since it was deflection based anyways and I felt the feat was very lackluster currently for a tier 4 feat (although it has a use it is just that it doesn't impress me much for a T4). Basically I don't really care for Mocking Gesture and would never consider spending (wasting) the points on it in its current form.
The I don't bother to get the feat as I don't spend a lot of time in stealth.
Edit: also the time when I need deflection the most is when they can see me
Comments
If you realy need to fix/nerf/whatever TR.
I think best solution will be to limit DoTs and Piercing damage in PVP (half damage),
SoD should not stack from the same source (eg. PotB multiple hits, at-wills, plaguefire, etc).
Please do something with SoD before it goes live,
we want TR to be better in PVE, just dont break it
Still I think we need more love if you limit SoD,
TR without SoD compared to other classes is still poor striker in PVE.
after tons of testing this day i can agree, stacking is not OP in itself but path of blade stacking , at wills stacking, plague fire stacking is bad. and absolutely need a cap !!!
( or not stacking at all )
It is in the bosses where atwill increase your damage insane levels (as a SW)
I see no problem in that atwills activate shadow dismisse. The problem are the stacks.
with those you basically gain infinite stack in 5 sec
Why not implement the 15sec rule? I mean, OWTS is 15sec, so is Skull Cracker. Then obviously, SoD could be 15sec procs and that would simply prevent any stacking issues, as well as introduce a need to manage and time its use, just like OWTS and Skull Cracker needs to be timed well, instead of just wasted.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I'd like to suggest:
Mocking Gesture be changed to: Striking a dazed target with an at-will grants 1/2/3/4/5% of the Scoundrel's stealth meter.
This:
1) makes it actually play well with the daze style of the Scoundrel
2) Gets the Scoundrel into stealth more often: now that Executioners can't lose stealth from hits and also gain stealth 20% faster, Scoundrels get to stealth the least, and it just feels bad to play the path relative to the others. I want to use Tab if I'm a Scoundrel, too.
Or, perhaps:
Mocking Gesture: Striking a dazed target with an at-will grants 2/4/6/8/10% Stamina.
This:
1) Gives the Scoundrel extra slipperiness and tankiness through extra dodges
2) Gets the Scoundrel into stealth more often if the TR has taken the feat granting stealth on roll. See 2) above.
also,
Bug: Smokebomb
There is a short (~1 sec) delay between activation animation/sound effects and daze/damage Please fix this, it slows down the scoundrel gameplay
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
The whole idea of being a Scoundrel is that you make up for your weak moments by CCing your opponent, and thus buying enough time for crucial stealth powers like SS to recharge -- hence managing the timing on how you tactically lay out Concussive Strikes and Skull Cracker becomes the very essence of "learning to play a Scoundrel". Asking for a stealth filler on TOP of our efficient stealth capabilities is just way too much.
(ps) Mocking Gesture is also much more important than you might realize, although I won't explain it here.
(ps2) With your idea in works, Scoundrel's would just go auto-stealth by simply using Smoke Bomb and/or PotB. Smoke itself will proc Skull Cracker and daze targets for 6s -- over which time all targets are effected. You have 5 mobs in there and that's 4 ticks of 5% x5 targets -- one smoke, and in a few secs you're back to full stealth meter. Something like this shouldn't be allowed.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
i calced it once and slotting shadow strike to benefit from a stealthed lashing blade is about on-par with just slotting a dps encounter instead. dps encounters just seems more worth it in the long run since they can benefit the team more.
i don't really understand how mocking gesture is useful in pvp. i generally use nearly all of my stealth bar just to approach with 45% run speed so i probably have a few seconds left. whoever i hit is gonna be dazed due to skullcapper so it has little usage in 1 vs 1. i know pvp is more about groups and i am ganked a lot, but it doesn't change the fact that it's dependent on being ganked for value.
pve i can probably benefit from most of the 10 seconds if my team is not depending on me for preemptive strikes on mob groups. but in pve i tend to be a mass daze spammer since my groups usually benefits a lot from dazing dragons. considering i also use frost enchant.....i probably get no value from it in pve as well. i also don't gamble with deadly aoes so if i have the stamina, i will dodge them.
What do you think of granting stamina instead?
You admitted yourself in the "How to fight HRs" thread that Sab is simply more powerful than Scoundrel. Why shouldn't all of the paragons be equally powerful, just in their different respective areas?
The big disbalance with the paragons is:
Executioner is damage with a side of stealth
Sab is perma stealth with a side of extra damage
Scoundrel is just dazes
Why don't Scoundrels get a "with a side of _____"?
Its the path with the high deflect and good amount of lifesteal and the only Path where duelist flurry is still a viable choice.
More over is the only tr that can effectively kill a hr
The new tr is so well developed that every trees seems a sub class
Again devs:
Bug: shadow of demise is being resisted and stacking.
Shocking execution is being resisted and dodged.
I m ok with shocking being resisted and dodged but it needs a little higher damage buff or just fox the tooltip to states that now it does not ignore defences anymore.
I didn't say "Sab is simply more powerful than Scoundrel". I said, "the HR's biggest enemy is the Wk/Sab".
Er.. they already are.
The dazes itself are a source of damage -- 50% damage buff with Skull Cracker and Low Blows. Not to mention the CC itself it one of the most powerful tools in game. I think I've more than proved to a lot of people time after time how "just dazes" can be used with deadly efficiency.
Because we don't need it? I think.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Thank you for posting about PvE. I too am tired of PvP issues ruining PvE TR play. And when I get depressed I play my CW and try to enjoy it. ( I didn't realise just how badly PvP considerations had ruined TR PvE play until I levelled a CW; the difference is ridiculous). I'm also giving SW a try because it seems the PvP bus is out of control. I'm not so concerned about the changes to stealth per se but I am concerned that the trade-off is not fair - not enough was given to replace it. I think survivability is the concern.
Whisperknife
- Distracting Knife should be in Executioner tree since its damage
- Seething Knives should be in Saboteur tree since its mainly a stealth refill type
- Determined Pursuit should be in Scoundrel since its a control type
MI
- Sabo and Exe feats are fine, I think Press the Advantage should be changed though. 10% power is not even a 5% damage increase with 5k power. Its also the control and deflect tree. I would change it to "Impossible to Catch now deflects with x% more severity" or just more deflection severity.
I like the idea of a SE that can be dodged and does resistible damage too, but it should be a lot of resistible damage, IMO that's what SE should have been in the first place. In this case tank classes don't get confetti-ed by damage they have no way to avoid, and softer classes have the opportunity to dodge. Killing someone through a CC daily combo is completely fine, and TR is NOT the only class that can one-rotate people doing so. If your going to say that a CC blood bath combo is OP, this you also need to say hateful knifes needs to be nerfed too. Becuase you can set up HK combos that do just as much damage and much more, and are just as unavoidable as daze/BB. Like HK -> Lashing blade -> Dazing strike -> COS barrage. If the HK hits, which, it's kinda hard to avoid a 80ft range prone from stealth, then the lashing, dazing, COS dmg is guaranteed, and much of it cannot be deflected or broken out of with a CC break, unlike daze/BB.
You need to rate Daily powers on their FULL effects rather than just their damage. GWF/GF indomitable strength prones as well as does damage and has a very fast activation but is melee range. Ice knife prones and adds chill stacks in addition to range. DC flame strike has very tricky targeted, but prones, fast activation, and range as well(target lock helps a lot). HR Disruptive shot is useable from less than full AP and is a fast activation ranged CC.
SE and blood bath have medium range and have no CC effects. SE is slow activation, BB is multi-hit over a few seconds, which gives people a chance to soak up it's damage if they are not CCed or break CC. BB has immunity frames true, but the situations where you are making use of those immunity frames are not when your dealing solid damage with it. For example, if you are facing multiple opponents or your encounters and stealth are depleted, that's when you could use a immunity frame, and BB won't do sht for damage without stealth. A daily without considerations like fast activation, range, CC effects, should deal great damage. IMO the immunity frames of BB are much more useful if you are using it in PVE, or out of stealth in PVP, rather than it being a crucial benefit to the daily when actually trying to deal damage with it.
Shadowy Opportunity procing on every hit of Blood bath deals too much un-mitagatable damage and should really only proc once or twice during this daily.
Shocking execution either needs to have base damage equal to M4 and deal unresistable damage, or it needs to deal FAR more damage than is currently on preview and be resistible and dodge-able. I would much prefer the latter as it would be an improvement in PVE.
Shadow of demise is key to balancing the Exe feat path. We have seen it go from over-powered and rife with exploits to completely underwhelming, and back again. If SOD only procs on encounters, has an unlimited target cap, and has a 8-10 second cool-down I feel that it would put the Exe path on the same level as Sab/Scoundrel and stamp out any exploitable damage.
Scoundrel damage is a bit lower than Exe/Sab and the CC boost is primarily useful in terms of single target and PVP. The life-steal/deflect feats need to be boosted to put this path on the right track.
Dex is still an underwhelming stat and un-worthy to be a rogue's primary attribute. At it's current level it is just good enough for me to not re-roll my base stats but avoid putting any more points into it than I have to. It's not that dex gives too little benefits, it's that dex gives benefits that most rogues are not going to find very functional/useful in actual gameplay.
On Dis-heartening strike, I would not say that this at-will is too powerful per se. It certainly is not over-powered in PVE or in PVP against targets with high DR and regeneration. However, in certain situations in PVP it can rack up a lot of damage on a soft target with very little risk to the rogue, and very little change for his target to avoid that damage. DHS should not receive a straight up nerf, however, it needs to be adjusted in terms of risk vs raw damage vs a soft target while maintaining it's useability in PVE and against tougher classes.
On the PVE/PVP side of things, PVE is looking good with some adjustments and some room for slight improvement. PVP in general is looking good as well with a few glaring issues that sticky out like a sore thumb. I really don't mind for the rogue class to be on the weak side in PVP, it's fun playing the underdog. I am looking forward to having a presence in PVE for a change as a rogue to the extent that words cannot express. If balancing needs to happen in PVP I'm all for that but please don't leave us neglected in PVE as we have been since Mod 1. If there needs to be a PVE/PVP separation of abilities I'm all for that too.
Thank you devs for your hard work and patience, really excited for M5, keep up the good work!
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Every feat tree/paragon path is able to maintain perma-stealth at this point. It's almost easier than in previous modules.
I'm probably going to end up as a MI Sabotuer regardless of what happens in the next couple of days too. Suits my playstyle ideal of a sword wielding assassin the best. Functionally I have some very fun rotations I can do as a Sabotuer that I just can't do as a Scoundrel/Exe. Speaking of themes, "Sabotuer" would suggest Spy/scout/disruption behind enemy lines rather than direct combat. Certainly a facet of the pen n paper rogue, but doesn't really have a place in neverwinter. When I think of "rogue" combat styles, the first three things that come to mind are alley brawler, professional assassin, and swashbuckling duelist(like the three musketeers). As far as fighting goes, I don't really see how "Sabotuer", and "Executioner" would be much different. As described in page one "sustained damage" vs "deadly burst" doesn't really hold true IMO.
And it is not even that much more survivable compared the other two paths dazes that don't work against some mobs compared to 20% more stealth regeneration or perma-stealth.
I would like to see the scoundrel capstone changed to either a stun or a daze that can affect some (normally) daze immune targets. I also think the survivability is lacking and that maybe Mocking Gesture could add .5/1/1.5/2/2.5% more Deflect Chance and 1.5/3/4.5/6/7.5% Deflect Chance for 10 seconds after entering stealth.
yeh i never understood this either!
I've been playing with scoundrel in preview, I'll test sab or exe now and see how are things.
I would also rather it be something protective leaving stealth but I thought this path needed a bit more deflection (maybe) and figured it needed to be a higher tier feat and just put it there since it was deflection based anyways and I felt the feat was very lackluster currently for a tier 4 feat (although it has a use it is just that it doesn't impress me much for a T4). Basically I don't really care for Mocking Gesture and would never consider spending (wasting) the points on it in its current form.
Edit: also the time when I need deflection the most is when they can see me