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Official Feedback Thread: Trickster Rogue Changes

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  • ghoulz66ghoulz66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,748 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Sorta wish they made a path that buffed the TR out of stealth. The GF has paths that encourage to NOT use guard.
  • reds351reds351 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 343 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    I think the issue is they don't want to make a GWF with dazes instead of stuns.

    Anyway I think the feedback is pretty much over at it comes out in less than 20 hours. lets hope for good things in the patch notes tomorrow. (Like a fix on SOD)
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Exposed Weakness: Stealth also causes you to ignore 5/10/15/20/25% of your target's armor.

    Does this calculated as ArP or can go negative (debuff/buff) ? (PvE)


    Shadowborn: Entering Stealth grants you 20/40/60/80/100% increased power for your next attack.

    Perhaps making it work on encounters only will be more useful, if it trigers from at-wills / DoTs it will force crossing ones fingers, pray and a stealth->encounter button smashing instead of normal timing.
  • edited November 2014
    This content has been removed.
  • shadowbunsliceshadowbunslice Member Posts: 175 Bounty Hunter
    edited November 2014
    The tactician capstone feat is terrible if that's what you are referring to and reckless attacker got a rework/nerf and doesn't work as you describe, anymore. If a tactician doesn't block, he's dead in two hits, i believe. So no clue what you are even talking about.

    Seems to me that what he said is correct, it's just that the mechanic doesn't actually work effectively in practice. It's the same story with many of the feat paths and paragons. The theory of how the different paths are supposed to perform is sound but the actual implementation leaves something drastically inferior or superior. Rogue in preview could potentially with some tweaks have all feats and paragons be viable in all sorts of different playstyles. That would be a breath of fresh air for diversity in this game, and something I would hope happens to all classes. I'm not expecting or holding my breath for a balanced rogue on M5 launch at this point. So long as they keep tweaking and improving over the next couple of weeks I'll be happy. If we get a series of nerf-bats and then ignored for months I'm throwing in the towel and giving up on this game.
  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Tactician capstone used to only be in effect for taking unblocked damage. This is not the case since the big GF reworking, and it now doesn't matter if you're blocking or not.
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  • shadowbunsliceshadowbunslice Member Posts: 175 Bounty Hunter
    edited November 2014
    Tactician capstone used to only be in effect for taking unblocked damage. This is not the case since the big GF reworking, and it now doesn't matter if you're blocking or not.

    Can't say I know much about the GF class other than fighting them, and that you could attach kitchen appliances to those shoulder guards. Oh, and they are lucky that they have a ready to go bob-sled for winter time.
  • kweassakweassa Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Seems to me that what he said is correct, it's just that the mechanic doesn't actually work effectively in practice. It's the same story with many of the feat paths and paragons. The theory of how the different paths are supposed to perform is sound but the actual implementation leaves something drastically inferior or superior. Rogue in preview could potentially with some tweaks have all feats and paragons be viable in all sorts of different playstyles. That would be a breath of fresh air for diversity in this game, and something I would hope happens to all classes. I'm not expecting or holding my breath for a balanced rogue on M5 launch at this point. So long as they keep tweaking and improving over the next couple of weeks I'll be happy. If we get a series of nerf-bats and then ignored for months I'm throwing in the towel and giving up on this game.

    Naturally, since "making the theoretical mechanic to work in real life" involves actual skill. The less skilled you are, the more you trouble you have (= consequentially, the more you whine about it). Seems to be a problem with a lot of Feedback posts, lately.

    Ofcourse, in some cases certain mechanics could be much too difficult to expect players of average caliber to be able to handle it effectively, in which case tweaking or rework should be done. However, being an average grade player myself, I haven't seen any such "too difficult" mechanics in the preview.
    Stop making excuses. Be a man.
    If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
    Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
  • yourbutt2048yourbutt2048 Member Posts: 27 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    micky1p00 wrote: »
    Exposed Weakness: Stealth also causes you to ignore 5/10/15/20/25% of your target's armor.

    Does this calculated as ArP or can go negative (debuff/buff) ? (PvE)


    Shadowborn: Entering Stealth grants you 20/40/60/80/100% increased power for your next attack.

    Perhaps making it work on encounters only will be more useful, if it trigers from at-wills / DoTs it will force crossing ones fingers, pray and a stealth->encounter button smashing instead of normal timing.

    Exposed Weakness is ArP, I tested it on a training dummy with and without the feat, did about the same damage both times with LB.
  • shadowbunsliceshadowbunslice Member Posts: 175 Bounty Hunter
    edited November 2014
    kweassa wrote: »
    Naturally, since "making the theoretical mechanic to work in real life" involves actual skill. The less skilled you are, the more you trouble you have (= consequentially, the more you whine about it). Seems to be a problem with a lot of Feedback posts, lately.

    Ofcourse, in some cases certain mechanics could be much too difficult to expect players of average caliber to be able to handle it effectively, in which case tweaking or rework should be done. However, being an average grade player myself, I haven't seen any such "too difficult" mechanics in the preview.

    Plenty of powers or feats that are clearly superior or inferior regardless of player skill. Other factors are only unlocked via skill-cap and gear combinations. GWF intimidation procs are a good example of something that's very gear dependent.
    There is also the factor of reliability. Sure, something may be very powerful in a given situation, but is it reliable in a broader sense.
    My current PVE rotation is complex enough that it took me a solid week to work out the muscle memory so that I wasn't making the mistakes that would get me killed. Which literally all it takes is a wrong button press a half a second early. If I did die, it was usually in 1-3 seconds full HP to dead. This was in soloing and completing major HEs in IWD, mother lode was my favorite one. I would say my TR's PVE rotation is about as effective as my lesser geared CW's. But the CW rotation has a lower skill-cap and is much more reliable. If my TR didn't have a Pvorp I wouldn't even be in the ballpark.
  • imm0rtalboyimm0rtalboy Member Posts: 76 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Does anyone noticed you lose stealth faster if you use cloud of steel or DHS this is sucks
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • nuudlznuudlz Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 285 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Does anyone noticed you lose stealth faster if you use cloud of steal or DHS this is sucks

    No, not really. Doesn't drain any stealth for me. Maybe it's a bug or something. You should report that!
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  • imm0rtalboyimm0rtalboy Member Posts: 76 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    This is the video show how i lose stealth fast this is in preview btw idk if this a bug or not

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40oI_qqVKoU&feature=youtu.be
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • loboguildloboguild Member Posts: 2,371 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    If this isn't fixed by launch or thursday, its here to stay this way till mod 6 knowing pwe.

    No, because it severely breaks their new capstone content. I just soloed the first phase in like two minutes with a 13.5k TR...

    Players will need only one phase to beat the heads. Here's my two-minute-damage (same 13.5k TR, 5k Power):

    bvo9yf2.png

    GFs can triple that amount, 45M in one phase. CU in the Nine Hells. You can only imagine what BiS TRs will do to the heads. We are talking seconds.

    So if this indeed goes live tomorrow, farm and farm a lot. You'll never ever beat Tiamat that easy.
  • joocycuzzzzzzjoocycuzzzzzz Member Posts: 577 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    loboguild wrote: »
    No, because it severely breaks their new capstone content. I just soloed the first phase in like two minutes with a 13.5k TR...

    Players will need only one phase to beat the heads. Here's my two-minute-damage (same 13.5k TR, 5k Power):

    bvo9yf2.png

    GFs can triple that amount, 45M in one phase. CU in the Nine Hells. You can only imagine what BiS TRs will do to the heads. We are talking seconds.

    So if this indeed goes live tomorrow, farm and farm a lot. You'll never ever beat Tiamat that easy.

    Apparently the Tiamat fight is postponed and not included in the launch tomorrow.
    Beta player

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  • loboguildloboguild Member Posts: 2,371 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    What do you mean :confused:

    Man, they changed the Stealth mechanic and now At-Will are also draining the stealth meter.
  • imm0rtalboyimm0rtalboy Member Posts: 76 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Ohh i didn't know that i just logged in preview 1 week ago :)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • suddenlyslowsuddenlyslow Member Posts: 818 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Although this is bugged and I absolutely agree that it is bugged, I have heard from many (and a few TR too) that damage doesn't matter and similar such nonsense. Would those same people that said damage doesn't matter then just as readily agree that this is fine too since damage doesn't matter? Or does that rule that applies to other classes not apply to the TR? I suppose if required the TR could argue "I am CC also and killing stuff fast is the best CC so...". What was the other argument I heard lately -- oh yeah "beating the content is all that counts, who cares who does what as long as the team wins".

    Anyways I am just wanting to know if their viewpoint changes with the class that normally draws the short stick suddenly yanks out a tree.
  • kweassakweassa Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    What do you mean :confused:

    You need to go to the preview news/announcements sections, and take time to read the patch notes. It's too much for us to simply explain it to you in words.

    To make a long story short, mod5 TRs fight totally different (except certain buld/tactics) from the old TRs, with a totally different stealth mechanic. At-will attacks made from stealth will deplete it, so stealth is now a defense/positioning tool, and a method to deliver either big damage or utility with encounters.
    Stop making excuses. Be a man.
    If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
    Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
  • kweassakweassa Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Although this is bugged and I absolutely agree that it is bugged, I have heard from many (and a few TR too) that damage doesn't matter and similar such nonsense. Would those same people that said damage doesn't matter then just as readily agree that this is fine too since damage doesn't matter? Or does that rule that applies to other classes not apply to the TR? I suppose if required the TR could argue "I am CC also and killing stuff fast is the best CC so...". What was the other argument I heard lately -- oh yeah "beating the content is all that counts, who cares who does what as long as the team wins".

    Anyways I am just wanting to know if their viewpoint changes with the class that normally draws the short stick suddenly yanks out a tree.

    1. This broken OP Exec damage is not gonna effect PvE status of the TR in anyway, but its gonna completely destroy any PvP balance and turn every other class fighting the TR to into pulp.

    2. When that happens, they are gonna form a huge voice that is against the TRs, and they are going to ask the developers for a nerf.

    3. When nerfs happen, it usually hits very hard.

    4. So, what we're gonna be facing, is a situation where we could have stopped that goddamned stupid nerf from happening in the first place if only some PvErs showed a bit of constraint and self-discipline, and agreed to form a consensus on the limits of the TR. Instead, those people divide the community by supporting broken OP **** and then bring upon to the whole TRs a world of pain...

    5. ...and after that happens, they tell us PvPers that its our fault... when us PvPers were the people who were trying to stop these changes from happening in the first place.


    So how about "NO".
    Stop making excuses. Be a man.
    If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
    Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
  • suddenlyslowsuddenlyslow Member Posts: 818 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    kweassa wrote: »
    1. This broken OP Exec damage is not gonna effect PvE status of the TR in anyway, but its gonna completely destroy any PvP balance and turn every other class fighting the TR to into pulp.

    2. When that happens, they are gonna form a huge voice that is against the TRs, and they are going to ask the developers for a nerf.

    3. When nerfs happen, it usually hits very hard.

    4. So, what we're gonna be facing, is a situation where we could have stopped that goddamned stupid nerf from happening in the first place if only some PvErs showed a bit of constraint and self-discipline, and agreed to form a consensus on the limits of the TR. Instead, those people divide the community by supporting broken OP **** and then bring upon to the whole TRs a world of pain...

    5. ...and after that happens, they tell us PvPers that its our fault... when us PvPers were the people who were trying to stop these changes from happening in the first place.


    So how about "NO".

    But if it doesn't matter how well one performs within their own specialties, why would it matter if the TR did poorly in damage in PvP? After all, and as you once said before, something about the good players would notice all those spectacular and wonderful things you did even if damage was not one of them and they would seek you out for their groups.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    kweassa wrote: »
    1. This broken OP Exec damage is not gonna effect PvE status of the TR in anyway, but its gonna completely destroy any PvP balance and turn every other class fighting the TR to into pulp.

    I guess in PvE it's the TRs ability to disarm traps people are looking for, instead of damage.
  • reds351reds351 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 343 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    micky1p00 wrote: »
    I guess in PvE it's the TRs ability to disarm traps people are looking for, instead of damage.

    I don't think any of the dungeons since the core game have traps?
    anyway you forgot your sarcasm tag
  • demonkyuubidemonkyuubi Member Posts: 0 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    micky1p00 wrote: »
    I guess in PvE it's the TRs ability to disarm traps people are looking for, instead of damage.

    i wish we could just place a trap and push people into it for their execution
  • helpimblindinrlhelpimblindinrl Member Posts: 972 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Is there a default pve tr build settled on yet? I know some people who don't read the forums or 130 pages of thread and aren't interested in bugtesting (hard to avoid in a cryptic game) on preview and they are kind of curious.
  • karakla1karakla1 Member Posts: 1,355 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    PvE TR here.
    I tested the "bugged" feat. i can deal up 3-4 million damage on a puppet. On the live server it is nearly 1 million. But i used a plague fire, loghtfoot thiefe and path of blades to generate more stacks.

    The lightfoot thiefe increase my damage by 500.000 damage.

    My DPS on a single target is by 35.000 to 40.000 on preview. On live i have 15.000. GWFs and HR can easily have 22.000+
    One of my guildmates must have something arround 30.000 DPS.
    My opinion: In PvE it should be no problem because it is single target damage. In PvP it could be a harder, don't know needs more testing.
    plat.png
    Platypus wielding a giant hammer, your argument is invalild!
  • reds351reds351 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 343 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    How about making it so there is a cap for the amount it can stack on a player?
  • karakla1karakla1 Member Posts: 1,355 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    personally i would say it is all fine because the TR must land several blows while he is stealthed and the you still can dodge out of the duelist flurry.
    plat.png
    Platypus wielding a giant hammer, your argument is invalild!
  • reds351reds351 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 343 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    Its more running around with a stealth POTB and a single big hit could kill someone due to the stacks.
    POTB can easily apply ten stacks to a person then 10k damage turns into 50k.
    Though shadow of demise does seem to be affected by resistances atm(other people have said).
  • khimera906khimera906 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 898 Arc User
    edited November 2014
    reds351 wrote: »
    How about making it so there is a cap for the amount it can stack on a player?
    This seems very reasonable.
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This discussion has been closed.