inthefade462Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2014
lol that dmg
in other news, have you guys just given up on the PVE TR? I mean there's so few of them left any more after the beta/release/mod1 consecutive train of nerfs you guys just don't care about them?
Why are you giving TRs more burst Damage, and killing their survivability in the process? You, me, everyone knows the first patch after live you will nerf their Burst dmg because #pvp omgstealth1shotme and then they are left with what, again?
Give them back their freaking bleeds. Not the original ones obviously but a version of it. Give them back their sustained damage that had no impact on PVP unlike the ridiculous burst damage from stealth they have now. Having a TR in party should significantly increase the rate that bosses die, at the cost of slightly less aoe dmg during the clear. It would be nice to invite a TR to a dungeon again without everyone including the TR knowing that it is a pity invite only.
I don't have time to fully give my feedback on all the powers, but glancing over them. I still see Whisperknife as a useless paragon path. If you are so concerned about TR being "OP" in PvP then make the WHISPERKNIFE more PvE Focused! The Whisperknife is suppose to be this weird, ranged/melee hybrid but why do we need that? I would just role a HR if I wanted that...
ItC: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO we have to have some form of CC immunity. Seriously if you do this, you are going to tick soooooo many people off.
I have a idea. Call the Dodge Shadowstep, cause ummm that would make sense?
Shadowstep(Dodge): 4 charges, each dodge would help refill the Stealth meter (5% 10%) if successfully dodged a enemies attack(Or some other mechanic). I fell like the TR dodge should help the Steath mechanic in SOME way, maybe not the mentioned one above, but seriously we have the WORST dodge of all the classes.
But these changes look interesting to say the least. I do agree that the Scoundrel has not buffs/debuffs to be really listed as that. I feel like calling it Duelist would be better, maybe the more the TR attacks an enemy the stronger they get? Maybe stackable Regen?
Well PotB is pretty broken as well. With just a modest amount of recovery I have 100% uptime. That's 100% of the time running around in a cloud of knives. That does around 26k damage total over the duration. And if you stealth up immediately after casting every single tick crits. With enhanced crit severity if you spec Executioner.
And some people want it to proc weapon enchants? Just lol.
I'd like to believe that the developers pay attention to high tally counts, so I will pretty much repeat what other have said..
FEEDBACK: TR (as a whole)
Speed and Mobility
Unproportial movement and attack speed given the size of the weapon. As other fellow TR's have said in forums, a GWF that carries a large sword moves faster than a rogue that carries 2 smaller knives..
FURTHERMORE, given the nerf to survivability (ITC/stealth nerf), SPEED AND MOBILITY becomes very relevant..
You might have to reduce damage though. (some would agree -- those who play executioner)
Stealth
Well, stealth... The core of the TR..
-15% of 100% of the stealth bar for each at will... feels to high..
This makes cloud of steel and Duelist Flurry highly impractical (PvP)..
I hope something would be done to lighten the perceived useless of other at wills..
I feel that the reduction in stealth with respect to time is overkill, but just my opinion.
The 100% crit is nice though.
But PvP nerf whining would certainly arise.
Tenacious Concealment
Since stealth doesn't last long anymore while attacking, I do not see how this would work (unless you just stand there and evade attacks, then it could be useful)
Please take another look at it.
Return to Shadows
This feat could perform well in PvE, but it is highly impractical for PvP.
Players move more than monsters, and moving to the back is much harder.
EDIT: When soloing, it seems impossible since you'll never see their back..
Unless you use the go to the back encounter skill.
Improving mobility would help this one though..
FEEDBACK: WHISPERKNIFE
Many other WK's have stated that, with respect to the new stealth mechanics, WK now plays weird in Pvp. Just stand or attack and die... All due to the new -15% stealth reduction
Many thanks for the fix of VP and damage increase of blitz, but WK still feels that it still underperforms..
DISHEARTENING STRIKE
Somehow, I feel that the nerf to DPS is somehow unneeded. [/INDENT]
DPS/ D. Per tick has has been reduced by approx. 60% ..
Combining this with the fact that it casts so slow, it becomes quite impractical in PvE.
In Pvp, however, it could do quite okay.
Although the nerf still doesn't feel justified. (My opinion though)
RAZOR ACTION
THIS, THIS, THIS, THIS IS JUST BAD!!!! BAD BAD BAD..
It's a saddening, saddening PARAGON FEAT. p
Seething Knives feat does almost nothing.....
100% increase is nothing.
This needs like +2000% to be useful.
INCREASE, OR JUST CHANGE PLEASE!
DAGGER THREAT
I feel that this needs some change..
Since perma-stealth is now different (more like in and out), this class feature could do you more harm.
An increase in range could improve it.. 30' or 40' probably..
OR change since it only affects few encounters/at-wills and all of those expose the TR now...
+15% damage for .. (more on PvP aspect)
ADVANTAGEOUS POSITION
Well, thanks to the Saboteur tree, this one could be nice.
If it's goal is for survivability, nope. It doesn't offer much. (PVP aspect) Ranged classes, especially CW, would still kill you even with a damage mitigation buff like this..
If one goes Saboteur, this would mean that combat advantage all the time.
For others, I don't know..
If there is anything wrong, please notify me. Didn't proofread.
Other interesting things:
Knife's Edge synergizes very, very well with Bloodbath.
Feedback:
Survivability on all three trees is pretty poor when testing in IWD. We just don't have enough dodges to get out of the way of some of the humongous attacks those mobs have. It really highlight just how much the TR relies on Stealth to survive.
I've now tested all three trees. The most lacklustre is Scoundrel by far. While you can be an accomplished knife fighter and reasonably durable against the normal IWD mobs you die fast and do little damage against any of the HE mobs. The micro-dazes don't always seem to do anything and the boost to deflect and lifesteal just isn't enough.
Saboteur is the most fun and 'rogueish' style IMO. Popping in and out of stealth really enhances survivability. Damage is a little lacklustre maybe - I need to play around with the feats more. And I can see potential for perma builds in this tree for MI at least.
Executioner is just a big old glass cannon. With the right feats and powers you can generate a whoop-*** alpha strike and Shadow of Demise will likely finish off anything that survives the first hit. Survivability isn't TOO bad if you slot SS and have a bunch of lifesteal.
Regarding WK vs MI - MI is the better choice for 2 out of the 3 trees by far. Oddly enough a WK makes a decent Executioner though. The ranged power don't really synergise well with Sab or Scoundrel IMO and the MI has better melee choices.
Now all we need is wait for the self-proclaimed "PvEr"s to show up and argue that that amount of damage is needed, and PvPers just want to nerf and screw classes up.
:rolleyes:
No offense to other PvErs with a sense of balance.
the amount of damage is just right after the will fix:
1) double-triple-quadruple proc of shadow of demise
2) first strike - 70k - lashing blade...this needs to be deleted. Unfun, awful and ridicolously skill less. Rework this please in something about survivability.
I understand this change may be welcome in PvE, as it is essentially a simple and straightforward damage increase with a 100% uptime, but in terms of PvP its a greay annoyance -- it was already a stupid brainless power particularly in TR-TR scenarios, but now... like said, it's just stupid to the extent where words cannot describe.
I suppose in PvP the stealth-stripping potential is largely irrelevant now at any rate.
It's not massively OP in PvE. At least not in IWD against tougher mobs anyway. You won't clear a spawn just running around with PotB ticking. But it is a substantial constant DPS boost and I was surprised to find I could just spam it. In fact I need to see if I can stack them because my CD is actually a little shorter than the duration.
PATH OF THE BLADE
In an AOE dps build, I feel that Path of the Blade lasts too long. As someone said before, you can basically have it continually up, and is does decent damage. Some may say too much, but 25k over 20 seconds isnt that much, considering a CW can spam Steal Time every 8 seconds and do 30k. Considering adds dont last 20 seconds, I would boost damage, lower time it's on, and lower the cooldown.
DUELIST FURRY
This at-will is rather useless now. If you compare it to Gloaming Cut over single target 30 seconds.
Gloaming Cut> Damage (than even a Legendary DF weapon)
Gloaming Cut > Mobility (because you're not stuck in one spot for so long)
Gloaming Cut > Survivability (because you're in stealth)
I would suggest boosting damage for Duelist Furry, or completely overhaul it and make it our PbAoE power, like most classes have It could be similar to Clear the Ground, or Weapon Master Strike. Another option is, while in DF, you have higher defense or deflection chance.
IMPOSSIBLE TO CATCH / SMOKE BOMB
In order for more survivability, I would suggest making ITC like it was, or change it to give you +50% defect normally, and +75% deflect with stealth. Smoke bomb needs to be bigger, longer, and shorter cooldowns.
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
edited October 2014
http://imgur.com/oZMi6NQ image link direct - Bug in Saboteur Feats: (Shadowy Opportunity)
If
I am in stealth and execute the following encounters,
(BAIT AND SWITCH) encounter,
(PATH OF the BLADES) encounter,
(SMOKE BOMB) encounter,
Then
(Shadowy Opportunity) Feat does damage to me!
End If
- Bug in Saboteur Feats: (Return to Shadows)
This does not work with (PATH OF THE BLADES) encounter
- Bug in Saboteur Feats: (One with the shadows)
This does not work with (PATH OF THE BLADES) encounter
- Trickster Rogue Encounter: (Smoke Bomb)
It would be nice if this skill did 100% weapon damage as POISON damage to all within area every .5
seconds
- Master Infiltrator Encounter: (Impossible to Catch)
Please keep the immune to damage on this encounter. Without this encounter we have very little survivability in PvE vs Bosses. This is due to our lack of a decent amount of DODGE ROLLS with shift key. Please either give us at least two more DODGE ROLLS per stamina bar, or keep (Impossible to Catch) encounter as immune to damage for 5 seconds.
- Trickster Rogue Encounter: (Dazing Strike)
This encounters animation lasts too long. Because of this most of the time in pvp and pve this encounter does not make contact with enemies. Please shorted the casting animation by 100% or increase the attack range to 14' (or both)
- Trickster Rogue at will: (Duelist Flurry)
This at will is terrible now as it will end stealth very rapidly. Please give (Duelist Flurry) the same properties as (Gloaming Stike), so it does not break stealth. As is this at will cannot even be used in stealth with lurkers assault.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
It is. Usually with a variety of self-buffs inlcuding Lurker's Assault and the sort. In all practicality actual numbers in PvP would be much lower, as it is usually very difficult to set-up those perfect conditions.
But if you know PvP, it is full of people who actually can pull it off -- as the motto in PvP is "if something is possible, then someone can do it, no matter how impractical". I won't be surprised if we actully see some people make full use of [Return to Shadows] in PvP despite the difficult and impractical conditions.
Return to Shadows can be quite scary when used with the right skills. Sab is going to be a whole lot of fun, a very elusive feat path to take. Will be posting some theoretical builds in the Thieves Den in a while, and maybe people can test them out in Preview to see which ones seem like viable choices.
It is. Usually with a variety of self-buffs inlcuding Lurker's Assault and the sort. In all practicality actual numbers in PvP would be much lower, as it is usually very difficult to set-up those perfect conditions.
But if you know PvP, it is full of people who actually can pull it off -- as the motto in PvP is "if something is possible, then someone can do it, no matter how impractical". I won't be surprised if we actully see some people make full use of [Return to Shadows] in PvP despite the difficult and impractical conditions.
So true. First strike needs to just plain go away or be changed entirely. It's pretty much useless in PVE other than small scale soloing. In PVP it is way too cheesy. On a tank class FS shocking execution + followup lashing + shadowy demise is going to lead to instant death. I'd rather see FS gone, auto crit disabled in PVP, and POTB tick on multiple targets with less dmg individually and more damage overall. In exchange, give rogues more movement speed, a 3rd dodge pip, and a debuff or DOT effect on smoke bomb.
My ~14k TR doesn't get anywhere near 70k FS-LB combos on the IWD mobs, let alone decently geared players. I guess those numbers are from BiS PvP tests?
My TR was 13.7k, lesser vorpal for the executioner test and I racked up 50k for the alpha shot.
I agree with an above post saying that damage stacking on dummies doesn't reflect real gameplay, but, TR or not, 50k spikes as a matter of course with 100k finishers? just a tad bit too OP. even for PvE.
My suggestion: swap one or two of the durability scoundrel feats with some of the debuff/damaging executioner feats. That should balance survivability and damage on both trees.
I think the main problem with the TR in preview is survability. We dind't had much survivability before, just stealth and ITC, now stealth lasts easily half of what it did before, and ITC is less effective, but we still don't have any tools for survival outside stealth (other than 2 dodges) and ITC is just for MI, WKs don't have it, so I think survivability is actually worse than before.
On the other hand, I think exec damage should be lowered in a way that prevents 1 shot in PVP but still is good in PVE, maybe stacking different status effects or bleeds/poisons on a target makes damage start to go up after a while, but not just from the first hit. That would mean that if we go against large HP pool mobs we will really shine, but in PVP we won't be oneshotting people from stealth with just 1 encounter.
But there needs to be a way to prevent 40k+lashing blades from stealth in PVP, or else we'll get nerfed and with our current lack of survival, we'll end up worse than on the live server.
Respeced my TR using the Saboteur path..which is what he is currently spec'ed as. Been playing a TR since beta days and even though I have other characters the TR is the one I like the best. I don't PvP EVER so my focus is on PvE.
FEEDBACK : Duelist's Flurry
Duelist's Flurry without Deadly Momentum pretty much is useless ; using Gloaming Cut most of the time. Instead of the usual, DF to reduce hitpoints and then followup with Gloaming. Lifesteal is a lot less since you don't get the boost from Deadly Momentum so taking on things like dragons etc becomes a bit harder. You have to do more of a dash in and dash out since the area effect around those monsters will drain you faster than you can recover now.
FEEDBACK: Artifact Weapons
I can see with people respecing their characters that there is going to be a lot of whinging over artifact weapons since DF got changed.
"One with the shadows: cap feat makes permastealth actually easier since you can refill you stealth meter with any encounter so you can now taking some damaging encounters vice just things like bait and switch. I like the way this works, you can still stealth is you time things right but now it isn't such a slow grind, you miss it by not dealing any damage and you are in the deep darks. Survivability is going to be an issue though.
BUG : Bait and Switch Still seeing the issue where the bait and switch dummy gets ignored by IWD and scaling monsters.
For me at least the changes don't totally invalidate the way I was playing before. I don't think it is going to alleviate the anti-rogue sentiment for Dungeon Delves...if you want to do that then start adding mega-damage traps that have to be disabled and locked doors that bypass so that a party wants to have a TR in it.
All in all I am favorably impressed with the changes, other than duelist flurry which I think needs a bit more work, and the feats seem a bit more cohesive. It now requires a little more finesse to not get killed but solo content is doable. Not sure about party content since not enough players on preview at the moment to get a party together to test that out. Will try and solo a few non-epic dungeons and see how the changes effect that.
Bug: Stealth Shortly after entering stealth monsters can still target and hit you with ranged attacks. Happened with wights on black ice beholder heroic encounter at the Dwarven Valley, I entered stealth, did a few steps to move away from melee ranged mobs, wights casted their projectiles while i was stealthed and hit me leaving me dead.
Happened with Ice troll Runts: entered stealth from out of combat, went into range and they hit me with their stones.
Happens every time with Thayan Servitors in the Dread Ring: when I come close to them while stealthed they see thorugh my stealth and target me with their knives
Bug: Smoke Bomb Some mobs can hit you shortly after becoming dazed.
Happened in Dwavern Valley: Ice Trolls a few steps away, smoke bomb, they start their melee attack animation, become dazed (circles appear over their head), they move closer and finish their attack hitting me
Feedback: Executioner, Master Infiltrator In PvE, executioner is way more difficult to play than before (I was a semi perma-stealth executioner) expecially solo PvE content.
"TL;DR version": As TR, while leveling in mod2 and doing end game content in mod 3, I always had to worry more about surviving than about dealing damage, and now with at wills depleting stealth and ITC no longer making you immune to damage for a short time, the difficulty is completely overwhelming.
I tried to kill mobs at the Dwarven Valley in IWD, and while I never had to drink more than a potion now I'm always struggling to survive and drinking pots while having 5 or 10% of max HP left (when I'm not killed).
10% life steal was sufficient but now doesn't even let you regain the damage multiple mobs are dealing (because now we are visible and if you do solo pve content you have all the mobs on you)
AP gain doesn't help either because you can get a first pack of mobs with WoB, clear some trash mobs, gain enahnced power and deal with the tougher ones... but then, against the next pack of mobs you are lost and you better have a full stack of hp pots in your belt.
The two dodge rolls and low stamina gain aren't of any help in this matter.
A single Duelist's Flurry attack rotation can't last for one stealth meter.
Let's say you follow DnD rogue's advices and start with the tougher monster passing onto lesser ones after it...
Since you're out of stealth in the first mid of the third animation, when you are dealing damage to the otugher one the other mobs see you and start hitting you,
at that point you can only stand there, because DF leaves you locked on position, and watch your hp decreasing dramatically.
( ITC can't help much because stealth already finished, remember? )
DF not lasting during stealth prevents executioners from doing a lot of their potential damage.
infact, talking about the feat tree
we traded
+5% permanent crit chance
+25% crit severity while stealthed (which was useful because we could be in stealth for most of the time)
and Deadly Momentum which could lead to +15% crit severity on boss fights
for
some nice buffs in power and damage
but no bonus to crit chance and only +15% crit severity while stalthed, the utility of which is fairly limited due to the fact that we can now be in stealth for very little time (4 or 5 at will attacks if you take out the time lost with some animations)
if you evaluate the bonuses with respect to our best at will, Duelist's Flurry, I don't think these changes help much
maybe you wanted us to use more our encounters.. but if that's the case why do they have such high cooldowns (Lashing Blade, Deft Strike) or slow animations (impact shot)
these changes weren't necessary and I feel sorry for the time and effort the devs put into those new feats (which would be nice if not coupled with stealth and ITC nerfs)
the solution was much more easier than you could think: separate the damage of powers for PvP and PvE
you could have kept the powers as they were on PvP, and if you didn't want perma stealth introduce at will consuming stealth (only in pvp)
but increase the damage of powers in PvE:
increase the number of stacks of Duelist's Flurry
double the damage of LashingBlade
greatly increase the damage of Shocking Execution (there's nothing Shocking about this daily if you see CW with Ice Knife and SW with Killing Flames easily dealing 60k-70k damage (and even more if buffed), while SE can get you about 10k-15k)
Rogue still has poor survivability, no party debuffs or buffs, no tanking ability, and no CC. All rogue has is damage, and that only in single target or 5 mobs or less. PVE We would have good small scale burst, but would be lacking heavily in sustained damage and AOE. Don't be fooled by the massive improvement over what we were. Don't be fooled by small scale soloing. In general, rogues are not going to be topping the DPS charts in dungeons. And every other class besides perhaps HR has rogue beat in utility. We have not returned to open beta levels of PVE proficiency. On the PVE side of things rogue needs more improvement, not less damage, not by an inch.
On the PVP side of things, it's worse than Open beta was. Burst and unmitigated damage are off the charts. There needs to be a clear division between rogue damage in PVE and PVP. This is the same problem that existed in open beta, and it still hasn't been addressed.
Return to Shadows can be quite scary when used with the right skills. Sab is going to be a whole lot of fun, a very elusive feat path to take. Will be posting some theoretical builds in the Thieves Den in a while, and maybe people can test them out in Preview to see which ones seem like viable choices.
This. Having tested all three trees I keep coming back to Sab. It's just so versatile and fun. And pretty powerful now I'm starting to get the hang of the feats. Just soloed a few IWD HEs and my TR is far from maxed out (just short of 14k GS, no IWD or ToD boons, no Arty Weapon).
All PvE TRs in favour of decreasing the damage a smidgeon?
My experience with Executioner is that if you lower the damage at all it will not be viable in tougher PvE content like IWD and T2. It has very limited survivability and has to kill mobs fast or just die. I understand the problem this much burst causes in PvP but another solution needs to be found rather than just lowering spike damage. Maybe First Strike greatly reduced in PvP?
Oh, and...
Bug: Shadow of Demise is triggering off ALL damage dealt in stealth, not just encounters as per tooltip. This includes itself if you re-stealth within the 6 second active window.
#1 - single target dps have slighly decreased (also i'm dealing less critical hits, however non-crits seem to do higher dmg now)
#2 - massive increase to aoe damage (switched impossible to catch to path of blade - feels like playing a cw without controling effects)
#3 - since i switched out itc to potb i'm even more squishy
#4 stealth is basically non-existant (note i've never had a stealth heavy build - lasted me maybe 3-4 seconds before now its like 0.5s to 1 second - only good for going into stealth and using 1 lashing blade)
dunno if it's really "more balanced" but just ran up to 2nd cn boss and was on par with a 21k gs hr (used to be the class that would outdamage me) - both of us doing 15mil dmg; for reference i'm 22k myself
my conclusion: I liked the old build, but this seems to be fun too (it's probably more newb-friendly); now i gotta switch out artifacts and my artifact belt though as i was concentrating on combat advantage before which is basically useless now.
ps. the perma-stealth build being gone is a welcome change
The only at-will that doesn't evaporates stealth is the one that hasn't artifact weapon. And the most used at-will in PVE almost destroyed with the actual config. in preview...
I like the damage, of course, but not the way it comes.
Threads opened to put our opinions and mostly no one of those in the upcoming changes...
Kinda joke.
Try this rotation : Start with WOB from stealth if it's up, exit stealth via blitz, hit POTB, shadow strike. Dodge roll into a new stealth. Gloaming cut until you run out of stealth, exit via blitz, shadow strike..... rinse, repeat. If your still having problems with survivability, replace POTB with smoke bomb and flurry during smoke bomb. If your WK, sadly your best option is to do nothing and just wait in stealth while your encounters come off CD. Exit stealth via blitz, smoke bomb, shadow strike, and pop DIS or flurry on anything in the cloud. Using DIS during stealth will not only eat into your stealth, but it will also use up your shadow of demise, which you could have affected 7 targets with if you waited for blitz to come off CD.
Yup - I was running WK which kinda works with Executioner (not the other trees) but it's definitely sub optimal. Might give MI Exec a spin with the above rotation and see how that works. Looks good.
Mind you, I'm have obscene amounts of fun with Sab at the moment. :cool:
Disclaimer
After some more testings, I am ready to offer my final impressions for the changes. In general, I accept the context of what these lines of changes are meant to accomplish within the game, and I am grateful for the developers in taking the time to think, and come up with something that offers a drastic, and yet very promising way of life for the new TRs. However, from this point on, for the sake of providing information for the purpose of "how to better implement it in game, so that it may work as intended, but within the limits of overall balance", I must apologize to the developers as there will be some substantial criticism.
Feedback: General Changes
Stealth related changes
implementation of 15% stealth meter drain per at-will attack, now warrants the following:
(a) Longer base stealth duration = slower natural stealth meter depletion
This is because the default stealth duration clearly seems to have been set by taking into consideration multiple extensions of stealth duration through use of encounters such as
Shadow Strike or BnS. My guess is that it was "perma", that the developers never intended, but not a few instances of stealth extension itself.
With that in mind, currently the base 6 seconds is way too low, as BOTH incoming attacks, lingering DoT effects, and the natural stealth depletion rate makes it very difficult to use stealth even as a repositioning tool. When using at-wills, stealth lasts barely enough for even 3 attacks (6 attacks is actually near impossible, due to the natural depletion of stealth).
I would suggest the base-line of stealth be increased to 10 seconds.
the rate of decay/damage to stealth meter, while both in and out of stealth, needs to be lowered. Honestly speaking, unlike most of the people who complain about the 15% depletion of the stealth meter per attack, I for one think it is a very needed implementation, so I support it.
However, as long as this mechanic is in place, effectively the 'perma' route has been adequately suppressed (with a few exceptions in builds using
Gloaming Cut) That means, at least for the purpose of self-defense and tactical repositioning, stealth should be working more as a factor -- obviously not as deeply as when 'perma', but at least reliable and long enough to be able to do what it is intended for.
It may be utilized somewhat in PvE where the number of incoming attacks are generally low, but PvP is currently overly abundant in all sorts of lingering effects which deal damage. Combine that with the 6 ~7 seconds of stealth and effectively every TR is STILL FORCED to take Shadow Strike as a part of their only 3 slots of encounters -- which inherently limits the efficiency of the class, as well as variety of build options.
I strongly suggest that changes be made, so attacks received DO NOT DAMAGE natural stealth meter refill. IT SHOULD ONLY HALT FURTHER NATURAL GENERATION -- not actively deplete it.
Powers
First Strike: Overpowered.
Should be sufficient around 10/20/30% increase -- not 100%
Whirlwind of Blades: the loss of direct damage, as the price of increased power generation, seems to be adequate in my opinion.
Courage Breaker: changes seem adequate.
Deft Strike:
still has the problem where the "teleport out" location is set upon where the target WAS, not where the target CURRENTLY IS, which limits its efficiency as a gap-closer during combat. Not much of a problem in PvE, but a significant problem in PvP. As I have commented before, we don't really need or want MORE DAMAGE on Deft Strike. What we really want is this encounter doing its job properly as a gap-closer. What Deft Strike needs is:
(a) longer lasting, and more potent SLOWs inflicted on the target (b) activation of power providing IMMUNITY frames, both to damage AND hostile effects
The necessity of (b) shall be explained at a later point
Lashing Blade: The base increase in severity is a welcome change, which is a good thing for all TR paths/builds.
Blitz: The increase in both damage and target numbers, is a very welcome change. However,
the SHIFT BACKWARDS WHILE THROWING action still remains a generally useless aesthetic bit where it prolongs its animation and offers extra weakness. This part of the power also needs to receive IMMUNTY frames
Path of the Blade: I must confess that I was never a fan of how this power was implemented. Perhaps my preferences would make me prejudiced against this power, but whatever the reason,
I STRONGLY FEEL the increase in duration is a BIG MISTAKE.
If anything, it goes against my principle that offense and defense in combat, whether it be PvE or PvP, should be a result of player action -- not an "automatic" event which happens passively. From the start PotB was passive as passive ever can be. Particularly in PvP, it is as "automatic" as any other proc-damage mechanic, and the increase in duration has made it possible for the power to be activated back-to-back, indefinately.
I would ask for this power to be actually increased in damage than what we currently have in live, AND HAVE A SHORTER DURATION
Impact Shot: The increase in damage is adequate and welcome change. However, its resident effects need to be strengthened
(a) The stun duration of Impact Shot:stealth, needs to be doubled
(b) The pushback effect of Impact Shot, needs to be at least tripled
Shadow Strike and Wicked Reminder: I am very pleased and satisfied with its changes
Paragon Paths
Whisperknife
Disheartening Strike: The changes to DHS is both good and bad. The increase in general duration to 15 seconds is most welcome, as it now requires less repeated set-ups to hold the damage intact. However, I am not sure if it is only in my case, but for some reason it seems to be doing a lot less than just 90% of the damage it used to do. The decrease in damage seems to be a lot larger than just 10% --
I would suggest the developers perhaps check it out one more time to see if its functioning normally
Vengeance's Pursuit: The increase in damage is also very welcome, but
the same problem persists as with Deft Strike. The power has a unintuitively slow activation time, both in "throw" and "teleport" parts. For example, in PvP with tenacity effects in place, you can "throw" and induce the [Skullcracker] daze effect, and even if you immediately activate "teleport" the enemy is out of the daze before the teleport lands, causing the daze extension chance to be blown off without doing any good. The result of the "teleport" is also same with Deft Strike -- it moves you to where the target "was", not where he currently "is". VP, I am afraid, is still not worthy to be compared to what ITC provides for Master Infiltrators -- even after the ITC nerf!!
(a) VP needs charges, as Wicked Reminder or Impact Shot
(b) VP needs a longer base stun duration, when teleported out of stealth. My suggestion is 2.5 seconds
(c) VP needs some other, beneficial buff effect on the wielder. The 9% damage debuff is barely notcieable. Needs something more direct, useful, and helps with survival as ITC does
Razor Action and Advantageous Position: I am sorry to say,
BOTH, are still, utterly useless and inadequate for both PvE and PvP combat.
(a) Razor Action might actually be useful if it worked like [Shadow of Demise], minus the piercing effect. Just let it do simply 50% of the Daily damage as AoE immediately after execution, and it should be more intuitive and useful
(b) Originally, Advantageous Positioning in D&D 4th, is a feature which is provided when the Whisperknife is adjacent to an enemy. The concept is that the nimble rogue uses the adjacent enemy as a shield, receiving extra AC against ranged attacks and denying any enemy Combat Advantage against it. It is a highly effective, level 16 feature, and in NW in the final tier of the class features -- and yet, both in PvE and PvP, utterly worthless. I am sorry to say, this class feature simply needs a complete rework
Master Infiltrator
Gloaming Cut: I am generally pleased with the changes to GC. It is adequate.
There are some concerns as to that GC has become a new "perma-tool" -- but as the power requires significant more skill factor, I'd observe it a little more to see and conclude if it really defeats the purpose of the changes to the TR class
ITC: I believe the changes are adequate. The nature of its passive IMMUNITY was one of the main problems which made the old semi-perma builds so ridiculous difficult to defeat. However, the 'nerf' to ITC, should be compensated by a general increase in TR defensive capabilities
Shoxecution: I belive the changes are adequate
General Problems
As mentioned earlier, the changes to the TR class is in good direction. Stealth is now a less passive/penultimate offense/defense, and the reliance to stealth is much lower than before.
However, all three paths -- Saboteuer, Scoundrel, Executioner -- lack adequate measures of survival which for a long time TRs including myself have suggested. In our original argument, the passive reliance to stealth was something that should have been replaced by a TR that uses stealth as a tool and a measure to increase combat efficiency. At the very heart of that change, was supposed to be TRs with greatly increased general traits that included:
increase in CCs
increase in defensive stats -- such as deflection and defense
considerable increase in mobility -- particularly with gap-closers and movement speed
considerable increase in special utilities -- such as powers with defensive effects such as IMMUNITY frames
Without these lines of general changes, the TR is even more of a glass-cannon than the CW is -- and that is speaking for only ONE of the paths -- Executioner -- which is greatly overpowered so far. The other two has neither damage, nor survivability/utility it was promised, and hence remain a marginal interest in PvE, while woefully underperforming in PvP.
Again, most of the TRs who have a vision for the future, a diffrent, more active type of TR combat -- will generally agree with your direction of change. I am also grealty pleased by its GENERAL DIRECTION, but the current incarnation, I am afraid, is much too weak in terms of defense. I've even mentioned as a joke to some of my friends during testing, that "if they remove 50% of the overpoweredness of the Executioner path, and somehow convert that into survivability and distribute it to the TR in general, it'd be perfect." That is the current reality of where the TRs are at.
I cannot emphasize enough, the general importance of TR self-defense.
The developers must remeber that ONLY when most TRs feel that they have adequate number of tools/specs that help survive the mega-damage/CC onslaught the PvP is nowadays, that they can truly walk away from their addiction, affliction, and total reliance to stealth and what it used to mean for them.
We'd actually like to have to do away with Shadow Strike from our encounter slot for once, have it considered as an encounter used by only certain TR builds that emphasize restealthing as a necessity -- instead of still have it embedded in our slots, yet again limiting our encounter choice to only one -- since most (MIs, obviousl) would still need ITC and SS.
We, TRs, need to be able to fight against all the others when we are not in stealth.
This means we need to be able to:
be able to catch up with HRs and CWs and SWs hitting from afar and stay on them
withstand the ranged CC-burst tactics coming from CWs at a reasonable rate
be able to hit and damage the HRs as they zip and dart with 6 dodges plus a retreat power, and then deflect more than half of our attacks and enter self healing that does more than 2k HPS
be able to avoid and outmaneuver the stun-fest GFs and GWFs with their stun-heavy hit tactics
be able to penetrate the amount of defenses and deal damage strong enough to hurt DCs
Currently, none of it is possible without stealth -- Even AFTER these changes. Only the Executioner path can really do it, in a hit-or-die gamble that involves the mega-hit Lashing Blade. Hence, for Executioners it is stealth-mega LB or bust. For Saboteuers and Scoundrels, it is still impossible, and even more impossible now that stealth is suppressed but no extra defensive measures have been given.
Hence, these are my suggestions -- in regards to GENERAL changes to the TR class itself, that might be required, in order for the new direction of TRs to work successfully both in PvP and PvE. These changes should be applied ON TOP of the current incarnation of TRs as seen in preview:
DEX should provide increase in base movement speed, 0.75% per point over threshold (
ie. 25 DEX = 11.25% ... 30 DEX = 15% faster base movement speed)
DEX should provide extra increase in stamina regeneration rate
Stamina cost for DODGE should be reduced to 33% of default stamina pool
DODGE, should be more prompt and responsive like the HR, shorter in distance, quicker in rolling speed, so that it is possible to anticipate, dodge attack,
and then immediately retaliate -- instead of slowly dodging a long distance away, and having to walk back to the target, only to find out you've missed the chance to attack and he's now 50' away
The following powers should have IMMUNITY frames associated with it:
■ Deft Strike
■ Bait and Switch
■ Vengeance's Pursuit
■ Blitz
CC effects on the following powers need to be strengthened:
■ Deft Strike: longer duration of SLOW
■ Vengeance's Pursuit:stealth:teleport: longer duration of STUN
■ Impact Shot:stealth: longer duration of STUN
■ Impact Shot: stronger PUSH
The above line of changes, are the BARE MINIMUM, IMO, that needs for the new TR changes to stealth and path/feats, to function as intended.
Whisperknife Problems
As my area of expertise is more limited to Whisperknives, I will add in one more series of comments concerning the Whisperknife. As it is, even with the ITC nerf in place WKs are still generally much too weak than compared to MIs in that it lacks some key features.
VP, is still much too unreliable and limited, as to be considered real protection against CCs
class features are still too weak and unintuitive when it comes to their role in combat
considering the "ranged" emphasis of the Whisper"knife", the basic Cloud of Steel and Disheartening Strikes at-wills limit the range of damage output -- particularly in PvP. Due to no changes to the basic TR features, the Quality-Of-Life(QOL) for melee at-wills are still great limited.
Plainly speaking, it's still godda*ned too difficult to really land melee attacks in PvP, and especially if you need to hit them reliably as a long chain to make it work, unlike encounters. That means to maximize our damage Whisperknives are limited to good use of CoS and Disheartening Strike, of which the former limitation to 8 charges may work as a balancing tool against the MI, but a serious inhibition to Whisperknives
Hence, the following are my suggestions to Whisperknives:
Dagger Threat: it is this class feature, that should be receiving a 33/66/100% damage boost for ranged attacks made within 20' of target -- not First Strike
Vengeance's Pursuit:Needs 3 charges, like Wicked Reminder.
Vengeance's Pursuit:stealth:teleport: Need its stun effect duration increased to 3 seconds -- at least let this Paragon path be able to deal a stun like the GF/GWFs can...
Vengeance's Pursuit:mark deflection chance increased by 3/6/9% when the 'mark' is on
Advantageous Positioning: change the feature to more closely match the concept of what it is in D&D4th -- anytime there is an enemy in melee range, you receive 10/20/30% extra damage resistance to ranged attacks
As I've already provided Feedback for the 3 different paths, I will not repeat it here.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
They didn't increase the BASE DAMAGE TO MATCH THE LENGTHENED POWER DURATION...!!!!
Oh dear lord.. **facepalm**..
What they did was reduce the damage by 10%, and then divide that by 15 seconds;;;
So now, a single tick of DHS does roughly 1/3rd of what it used to do.
No wonder the damage became so uselessly weak....
THIS IS AN OUTRAGE... They've actually made the Whisperknife even WEAKER!!!!!
We might as well call it the "Weakerknife" now...
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Comments
in other news, have you guys just given up on the PVE TR? I mean there's so few of them left any more after the beta/release/mod1 consecutive train of nerfs you guys just don't care about them?
Why are you giving TRs more burst Damage, and killing their survivability in the process? You, me, everyone knows the first patch after live you will nerf their Burst dmg because #pvp omgstealth1shotme and then they are left with what, again?
Give them back their freaking bleeds. Not the original ones obviously but a version of it. Give them back their sustained damage that had no impact on PVP unlike the ridiculous burst damage from stealth they have now. Having a TR in party should significantly increase the rate that bosses die, at the cost of slightly less aoe dmg during the clear. It would be nice to invite a TR to a dungeon again without everyone including the TR knowing that it is a pity invite only.
What the hell is that? 5* Shadow of Demise?
Mod 12.5 PvP Power/Crit/Arp Optimization
Youtube channel (PvE/PvP)
ItC: NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO we have to have some form of CC immunity. Seriously if you do this, you are going to tick soooooo many people off.
I have a idea. Call the Dodge Shadowstep, cause ummm that would make sense?
Shadowstep(Dodge): 4 charges, each dodge would help refill the Stealth meter (5% 10%) if successfully dodged a enemies attack(Or some other mechanic). I fell like the TR dodge should help the Steath mechanic in SOME way, maybe not the mentioned one above, but seriously we have the WORST dodge of all the classes.
But these changes look interesting to say the least. I do agree that the Scoundrel has not buffs/debuffs to be really listed as that. I feel like calling it Duelist would be better, maybe the more the TR attacks an enemy the stronger they get? Maybe stackable Regen?
And some people want it to proc weapon enchants? Just lol.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
FEEDBACK: TR (as a whole)
Speed and Mobility
FURTHERMORE, given the nerf to survivability (ITC/stealth nerf), SPEED AND MOBILITY becomes very relevant..
You might have to reduce damage though. (some would agree -- those who play executioner)
Stealth
Well, stealth... The core of the TR..
-15% of 100% of the stealth bar for each at will... feels to high..
This makes cloud of steel and Duelist Flurry highly impractical (PvP)..
I hope something would be done to lighten the perceived useless of other at wills..
I feel that the reduction in stealth with respect to time is overkill, but just my opinion.
The 100% crit is nice though.
But PvP nerf whining would certainly arise.
Tenacious Concealment
Since stealth doesn't last long anymore while attacking, I do not see how this would work (unless you just stand there and evade attacks, then it could be useful)
Please take another look at it.
Return to Shadows
This feat could perform well in PvE, but it is highly impractical for PvP.
Players move more than monsters, and moving to the back is much harder.
EDIT: When soloing, it seems impossible since you'll never see their back..
Unless you use the go to the back encounter skill.
Improving mobility would help this one though..
FEEDBACK: WHISPERKNIFE
Many other WK's have stated that, with respect to the new stealth mechanics, WK now plays weird in Pvp. Just stand or attack and die... All due to the new -15% stealth reduction
Many thanks for the fix of VP and damage increase of blitz, but WK still feels that it still underperforms..
DISHEARTENING STRIKE
Somehow, I feel that the nerf to DPS is somehow unneeded. [/INDENT]
DPS/ D. Per tick has has been reduced by approx. 60% ..
Combining this with the fact that it casts so slow, it becomes quite impractical in PvE.
In Pvp, however, it could do quite okay.
Although the nerf still doesn't feel justified. (My opinion though)
RAZOR ACTION
THIS, THIS, THIS, THIS IS JUST BAD!!!! BAD BAD BAD..
It's a saddening, saddening PARAGON FEAT. p
Seething Knives feat does almost nothing.....
100% increase is nothing.
This needs like +2000% to be useful.
INCREASE, OR JUST CHANGE PLEASE!
DAGGER THREAT
I feel that this needs some change..
Since perma-stealth is now different (more like in and out), this class feature could do you more harm.
An increase in range could improve it.. 30' or 40' probably..
OR change since it only affects few encounters/at-wills and all of those expose the TR now...
+15% damage for .. (more on PvP aspect)
ADVANTAGEOUS POSITION
Well, thanks to the Saboteur tree, this one could be nice.
If it's goal is for survivability, nope. It doesn't offer much. (PVP aspect) Ranged classes, especially CW, would still kill you even with a damage mitigation buff like this..
If one goes Saboteur, this would mean that combat advantage all the time.
For others, I don't know..
If there is anything wrong, please notify me. Didn't proofread.
Other interesting things:
Knife's Edge synergizes very, very well with Bloodbath.
Survivability on all three trees is pretty poor when testing in IWD. We just don't have enough dodges to get out of the way of some of the humongous attacks those mobs have. It really highlight just how much the TR relies on Stealth to survive.
I've now tested all three trees. The most lacklustre is Scoundrel by far. While you can be an accomplished knife fighter and reasonably durable against the normal IWD mobs you die fast and do little damage against any of the HE mobs. The micro-dazes don't always seem to do anything and the boost to deflect and lifesteal just isn't enough.
Saboteur is the most fun and 'rogueish' style IMO. Popping in and out of stealth really enhances survivability. Damage is a little lacklustre maybe - I need to play around with the feats more. And I can see potential for perma builds in this tree for MI at least.
Executioner is just a big old glass cannon. With the right feats and powers you can generate a whoop-*** alpha strike and Shadow of Demise will likely finish off anything that survives the first hit. Survivability isn't TOO bad if you slot SS and have a bunch of lifesteal.
Regarding WK vs MI - MI is the better choice for 2 out of the 3 trees by far. Oddly enough a WK makes a decent Executioner though. The ranged power don't really synergise well with Sab or Scoundrel IMO and the MI has better melee choices.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
the amount of damage is just right after the will fix:
1) double-triple-quadruple proc of shadow of demise
2) first strike - 70k - lashing blade...this needs to be deleted. Unfun, awful and ridicolously skill less. Rework this please in something about survivability.
It's not massively OP in PvE. At least not in IWD against tougher mobs anyway. You won't clear a spawn just running around with PotB ticking. But it is a substantial constant DPS boost and I was surprised to find I could just spam it. In fact I need to see if I can stack them because my CD is actually a little shorter than the duration.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
PATH OF THE BLADE
In an AOE dps build, I feel that Path of the Blade lasts too long. As someone said before, you can basically have it continually up, and is does decent damage. Some may say too much, but 25k over 20 seconds isnt that much, considering a CW can spam Steal Time every 8 seconds and do 30k. Considering adds dont last 20 seconds, I would boost damage, lower time it's on, and lower the cooldown.
DUELIST FURRY
This at-will is rather useless now. If you compare it to Gloaming Cut over single target 30 seconds.
Gloaming Cut> Damage (than even a Legendary DF weapon)
Gloaming Cut > Mobility (because you're not stuck in one spot for so long)
Gloaming Cut > Survivability (because you're in stealth)
I would suggest boosting damage for Duelist Furry, or completely overhaul it and make it our PbAoE power, like most classes have It could be similar to Clear the Ground, or Weapon Master Strike. Another option is, while in DF, you have higher defense or deflection chance.
IMPOSSIBLE TO CATCH / SMOKE BOMB
In order for more survivability, I would suggest making ITC like it was, or change it to give you +50% defect normally, and +75% deflect with stealth. Smoke bomb needs to be bigger, longer, and shorter cooldowns.
http://imgur.com/oZMi6NQ image link direct
- Bug in Saboteur Feats: (Shadowy Opportunity)
If
I am in stealth and execute the following encounters,
(BAIT AND SWITCH) encounter,
(PATH OF the BLADES) encounter,
(SMOKE BOMB) encounter,
Then
(Shadowy Opportunity) Feat does damage to me!
End If
- Bug in Saboteur Feats: (Return to Shadows)
This does not work with (PATH OF THE BLADES) encounter
- Bug in Saboteur Feats: (One with the shadows)
This does not work with (PATH OF THE BLADES) encounter
- Trickster Rogue Encounter: (Smoke Bomb)
It would be nice if this skill did 100% weapon damage as POISON damage to all within area every .5
seconds
- Master Infiltrator Encounter: (Impossible to Catch)
Please keep the immune to damage on this encounter. Without this encounter we have very little survivability in PvE vs Bosses. This is due to our lack of a decent amount of DODGE ROLLS with shift key. Please either give us at least two more DODGE ROLLS per stamina bar, or keep (Impossible to Catch) encounter as immune to damage for 5 seconds.
- Trickster Rogue Encounter: (Dazing Strike)
This encounters animation lasts too long. Because of this most of the time in pvp and pve this encounter does not make contact with enemies. Please shorted the casting animation by 100% or increase the attack range to 14' (or both)
- Trickster Rogue at will: (Duelist Flurry)
This at will is terrible now as it will end stealth very rapidly. Please give (Duelist Flurry) the same properties as (Gloaming Stike), so it does not break stealth. As is this at will cannot even be used in stealth with lurkers assault.
Return to Shadows can be quite scary when used with the right skills.
So true. First strike needs to just plain go away or be changed entirely. It's pretty much useless in PVE other than small scale soloing. In PVP it is way too cheesy. On a tank class FS shocking execution + followup lashing + shadowy demise is going to lead to instant death. I'd rather see FS gone, auto crit disabled in PVP, and POTB tick on multiple targets with less dmg individually and more damage overall. In exchange, give rogues more movement speed, a 3rd dodge pip, and a debuff or DOT effect on smoke bomb.
Putting two and two together:
Bloodbath can almost instantly refresh your artifact
My TR was 13.7k, lesser vorpal for the executioner test and I racked up 50k for the alpha shot.
I agree with an above post saying that damage stacking on dummies doesn't reflect real gameplay, but, TR or not, 50k spikes as a matter of course with 100k finishers? just a tad bit too OP. even for PvE.
My suggestion: swap one or two of the durability scoundrel feats with some of the debuff/damaging executioner feats. That should balance survivability and damage on both trees.
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
arterial cut with brutal backstab.
and where are the ap gain feats?
On the other hand, I think exec damage should be lowered in a way that prevents 1 shot in PVP but still is good in PVE, maybe stacking different status effects or bleeds/poisons on a target makes damage start to go up after a while, but not just from the first hit. That would mean that if we go against large HP pool mobs we will really shine, but in PVP we won't be oneshotting people from stealth with just 1 encounter.
FEEDBACK : Duelist's Flurry
Duelist's Flurry without Deadly Momentum pretty much is useless ; using Gloaming Cut most of the time. Instead of the usual, DF to reduce hitpoints and then followup with Gloaming. Lifesteal is a lot less since you don't get the boost from Deadly Momentum so taking on things like dragons etc becomes a bit harder. You have to do more of a dash in and dash out since the area effect around those monsters will drain you faster than you can recover now.
FEEDBACK: Artifact Weapons
I can see with people respecing their characters that there is going to be a lot of whinging over artifact weapons since DF got changed.
"One with the shadows: cap feat makes permastealth actually easier since you can refill you stealth meter with any encounter so you can now taking some damaging encounters vice just things like bait and switch. I like the way this works, you can still stealth is you time things right but now it isn't such a slow grind, you miss it by not dealing any damage and you are in the deep darks. Survivability is going to be an issue though.
BUG : Bait and Switch
Still seeing the issue where the bait and switch dummy gets ignored by IWD and scaling monsters.
For me at least the changes don't totally invalidate the way I was playing before. I don't think it is going to alleviate the anti-rogue sentiment for Dungeon Delves...if you want to do that then start adding mega-damage traps that have to be disabled and locked doors that bypass so that a party wants to have a TR in it.
All in all I am favorably impressed with the changes, other than duelist flurry which I think needs a bit more work, and the feats seem a bit more cohesive. It now requires a little more finesse to not get killed but solo content is doable. Not sure about party content since not enough players on preview at the moment to get a party together to test that out. Will try and solo a few non-epic dungeons and see how the changes effect that.
Shortly after entering stealth monsters can still target and hit you with ranged attacks. Happened with wights on black ice beholder heroic encounter at the Dwarven Valley, I entered stealth, did a few steps to move away from melee ranged mobs, wights casted their projectiles while i was stealthed and hit me leaving me dead.
Happened with Ice troll Runts: entered stealth from out of combat, went into range and they hit me with their stones.
Happens every time with Thayan Servitors in the Dread Ring: when I come close to them while stealthed they see thorugh my stealth and target me with their knives
Bug: Smoke Bomb
Some mobs can hit you shortly after becoming dazed.
Happened in Dwavern Valley: Ice Trolls a few steps away, smoke bomb, they start their melee attack animation, become dazed (circles appear over their head), they move closer and finish their attack hitting me
Feedback: Executioner, Master Infiltrator
In PvE, executioner is way more difficult to play than before (I was a semi perma-stealth executioner) expecially solo PvE content.
"TL;DR version": As TR, while leveling in mod2 and doing end game content in mod 3, I always had to worry more about surviving than about dealing damage, and now with at wills depleting stealth and ITC no longer making you immune to damage for a short time, the difficulty is completely overwhelming.
I tried to kill mobs at the Dwarven Valley in IWD, and while I never had to drink more than a potion now I'm always struggling to survive and drinking pots while having 5 or 10% of max HP left (when I'm not killed).
10% life steal was sufficient but now doesn't even let you regain the damage multiple mobs are dealing (because now we are visible and if you do solo pve content you have all the mobs on you)
AP gain doesn't help either because you can get a first pack of mobs with WoB, clear some trash mobs, gain enahnced power and deal with the tougher ones... but then, against the next pack of mobs you are lost and you better have a full stack of hp pots in your belt.
The two dodge rolls and low stamina gain aren't of any help in this matter.
A single Duelist's Flurry attack rotation can't last for one stealth meter.
Let's say you follow DnD rogue's advices and start with the tougher monster passing onto lesser ones after it...
Since you're out of stealth in the first mid of the third animation, when you are dealing damage to the otugher one the other mobs see you and start hitting you,
at that point you can only stand there, because DF leaves you locked on position, and watch your hp decreasing dramatically.
( ITC can't help much because stealth already finished, remember? )
DF not lasting during stealth prevents executioners from doing a lot of their potential damage.
infact, talking about the feat tree
we traded
+5% permanent crit chance
+25% crit severity while stealthed (which was useful because we could be in stealth for most of the time)
and Deadly Momentum which could lead to +15% crit severity on boss fights
for
some nice buffs in power and damage
but no bonus to crit chance and only +15% crit severity while stalthed, the utility of which is fairly limited due to the fact that we can now be in stealth for very little time (4 or 5 at will attacks if you take out the time lost with some animations)
if you evaluate the bonuses with respect to our best at will, Duelist's Flurry, I don't think these changes help much
maybe you wanted us to use more our encounters.. but if that's the case why do they have such high cooldowns (Lashing Blade, Deft Strike) or slow animations (impact shot)
these changes weren't necessary and I feel sorry for the time and effort the devs put into those new feats (which would be nice if not coupled with stealth and ITC nerfs)
the solution was much more easier than you could think: separate the damage of powers for PvP and PvE
you could have kept the powers as they were on PvP, and if you didn't want perma stealth introduce at will consuming stealth (only in pvp)
but increase the damage of powers in PvE:
increase the number of stacks of Duelist's Flurry
double the damage of LashingBlade
greatly increase the damage of Shocking Execution (there's nothing Shocking about this daily if you see CW with Ice Knife and SW with Killing Flames easily dealing 60k-70k damage (and even more if buffed), while SE can get you about 10k-15k)
I fully agree on that count. 40-50k alpha spikes will be the death of TR (again)
I think the key will be reworking First Strike. It gives too much of a damage boost
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
On the PVP side of things, it's worse than Open beta was. Burst and unmitigated damage are off the charts. There needs to be a clear division between rogue damage in PVE and PVP. This is the same problem that existed in open beta, and it still hasn't been addressed.
I. Love. It.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Saboteurs are so good at stealth that we turn our enemies invisible.
This happened a few times and I have no clue how or why.
Oh, and...
Bug: Shadow of Demise is triggering off ALL damage dealt in stealth, not just encounters as per tooltip. This includes itself if you re-stealth within the 6 second active window.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
I have no idea why you would suggest that. This seems perfectly in line with what someone in lvl 54 greens should be able to do.
#1 - single target dps have slighly decreased (also i'm dealing less critical hits, however non-crits seem to do higher dmg now)
#2 - massive increase to aoe damage (switched impossible to catch to path of blade - feels like playing a cw without controling effects)
#3 - since i switched out itc to potb i'm even more squishy
#4 stealth is basically non-existant (note i've never had a stealth heavy build - lasted me maybe 3-4 seconds before now its like 0.5s to 1 second - only good for going into stealth and using 1 lashing blade)
dunno if it's really "more balanced" but just ran up to 2nd cn boss and was on par with a 21k gs hr (used to be the class that would outdamage me) - both of us doing 15mil dmg; for reference i'm 22k myself
my conclusion: I liked the old build, but this seems to be fun too (it's probably more newb-friendly); now i gotta switch out artifacts and my artifact belt though as i was concentrating on combat advantage before which is basically useless now.
ps. the perma-stealth build being gone is a welcome change
I like the damage, of course, but not the way it comes.
Threads opened to put our opinions and mostly no one of those in the upcoming changes...
Kinda joke.
Mind you, I'm have obscene amounts of fun with Sab at the moment. :cool:
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
After some more testings, I am ready to offer my final impressions for the changes. In general, I accept the context of what these lines of changes are meant to accomplish within the game, and I am grateful for the developers in taking the time to think, and come up with something that offers a drastic, and yet very promising way of life for the new TRs. However, from this point on, for the sake of providing information for the purpose of "how to better implement it in game, so that it may work as intended, but within the limits of overall balance", I must apologize to the developers as there will be some substantial criticism.
Feedback: General Changes
Stealth related changes
implementation of 15% stealth meter drain per at-will attack, now warrants the following: (a) Longer base stealth duration = slower natural stealth meter depletion This is because the default stealth duration clearly seems to have been set by taking into consideration multiple extensions of stealth duration through use of encounters such as
Shadow Strike or BnS. My guess is that it was "perma", that the developers never intended, but not a few instances of stealth extension itself.With that in mind, currently the base 6 seconds is way too low, as BOTH incoming attacks, lingering DoT effects, and the natural stealth depletion rate makes it very difficult to use stealth even as a repositioning tool. When using at-wills, stealth lasts barely enough for even 3 attacks (6 attacks is actually near impossible, due to the natural depletion of stealth).
I would suggest the base-line of stealth be increased to 10 seconds.
the rate of decay/damage to stealth meter, while both in and out of stealth, needs to be lowered. Honestly speaking, unlike most of the people who complain about the 15% depletion of the stealth meter per attack, I for one think it is a very needed implementation, so I support it. However, as long as this mechanic is in place, effectively the 'perma' route has been adequately suppressed (with a few exceptions in builds using
Gloaming Cut) That means, at least for the purpose of self-defense and tactical repositioning, stealth should be working more as a factor -- obviously not as deeply as when 'perma', but at least reliable and long enough to be able to do what it is intended for.It may be utilized somewhat in PvE where the number of incoming attacks are generally low, but PvP is currently overly abundant in all sorts of lingering effects which deal damage. Combine that with the 6 ~7 seconds of stealth and effectively every TR is STILL FORCED to take Shadow Strike as a part of their only 3 slots of encounters -- which inherently limits the efficiency of the class, as well as variety of build options.
I strongly suggest that changes be made, so attacks received DO NOT DAMAGE natural stealth meter refill. IT SHOULD ONLY HALT FURTHER NATURAL GENERATION -- not actively deplete it.
Powers
First Strike: Overpowered.
Should be sufficient around 10/20/30% increase -- not 100%Whirlwind of Blades: the loss of direct damage, as the price of increased power generation, seems to be adequate in my opinion.
Courage Breaker: changes seem adequate.
Deft Strike:
still has the problem where the "teleport out" location is set upon where the target WAS, not where the target CURRENTLY IS, which limits its efficiency as a gap-closer during combat. Not much of a problem in PvE, but a significant problem in PvP. As I have commented before, we don't really need or want MORE DAMAGE on Deft Strike. What we really want is this encounter doing its job properly as a gap-closer. What Deft Strike needs is:(a) longer lasting, and more potent SLOWs inflicted on the target
(b) activation of power providing IMMUNITY frames, both to damage AND hostile effects
The necessity of (b) shall be explained at a later point
Lashing Blade: The base increase in severity is a welcome change, which is a good thing for all TR paths/builds.
Blitz: The increase in both damage and target numbers, is a very welcome change. However,
the SHIFT BACKWARDS WHILE THROWING action still remains a generally useless aesthetic bit where it prolongs its animation and offers extra weakness. This part of the power also needs to receive IMMUNTY framesPath of the Blade: I must confess that I was never a fan of how this power was implemented. Perhaps my preferences would make me prejudiced against this power, but whatever the reason,
I STRONGLY FEEL the increase in duration is a BIG MISTAKE.If anything, it goes against my principle that offense and defense in combat, whether it be PvE or PvP, should be a result of player action -- not an "automatic" event which happens passively. From the start PotB was passive as passive ever can be. Particularly in PvP, it is as "automatic" as any other proc-damage mechanic, and the increase in duration has made it possible for the power to be activated back-to-back, indefinately.
I would ask for this power to be actually increased in damage than what we currently have in live, AND HAVE A SHORTER DURATION
Impact Shot: The increase in damage is adequate and welcome change. However, its resident effects need to be strengthened
(a) The stun duration of Impact Shot:stealth, needs to be doubled(b) The pushback effect of Impact Shot, needs to be at least tripled
Shadow Strike and Wicked Reminder: I am very pleased and satisfied with its changes
Paragon Paths
Whisperknife
Disheartening Strike: The changes to DHS is both good and bad. The increase in general duration to 15 seconds is most welcome, as it now requires less repeated set-ups to hold the damage intact. However, I am not sure if it is only in my case, but for some reason it seems to be doing a lot less than just 90% of the damage it used to do. The decrease in damage seems to be a lot larger than just 10% --
I would suggest the developers perhaps check it out one more time to see if its functioning normallyVengeance's Pursuit: The increase in damage is also very welcome, but
the same problem persists as with Deft Strike. The power has a unintuitively slow activation time, both in "throw" and "teleport" parts. For example, in PvP with tenacity effects in place, you can "throw" and induce the [Skullcracker] daze effect, and even if you immediately activate "teleport" the enemy is out of the daze before the teleport lands, causing the daze extension chance to be blown off without doing any good. The result of the "teleport" is also same with Deft Strike -- it moves you to where the target "was", not where he currently "is". VP, I am afraid, is still not worthy to be compared to what ITC provides for Master Infiltrators -- even after the ITC nerf!!(a) VP needs charges, as Wicked Reminder or Impact Shot
(b) VP needs a longer base stun duration, when teleported out of stealth. My suggestion is 2.5 seconds
(c) VP needs some other, beneficial buff effect on the wielder. The 9% damage debuff is barely notcieable. Needs something more direct, useful, and helps with survival as ITC does
Razor Action and Advantageous Position: I am sorry to say,
BOTH, are still, utterly useless and inadequate for both PvE and PvP combat.(a) Razor Action might actually be useful if it worked like [Shadow of Demise], minus the piercing effect. Just let it do simply 50% of the Daily damage as AoE immediately after execution, and it should be more intuitive and useful
(b) Originally, Advantageous Positioning in D&D 4th, is a feature which is provided when the Whisperknife is adjacent to an enemy. The concept is that the nimble rogue uses the adjacent enemy as a shield, receiving extra AC against ranged attacks and denying any enemy Combat Advantage against it. It is a highly effective, level 16 feature, and in NW in the final tier of the class features -- and yet, both in PvE and PvP, utterly worthless. I am sorry to say, this class feature simply needs a complete rework
Master Infiltrator
Gloaming Cut: I am generally pleased with the changes to GC. It is adequate.
There are some concerns as to that GC has become a new "perma-tool" -- but as the power requires significant more skill factor, I'd observe it a little more to see and conclude if it really defeats the purpose of the changes to the TR classITC: I believe the changes are adequate. The nature of its passive IMMUNITY was one of the main problems which made the old semi-perma builds so ridiculous difficult to defeat. However, the 'nerf' to ITC, should be compensated by a general increase in TR defensive capabilities
Shoxecution: I belive the changes are adequate
General Problems
As mentioned earlier, the changes to the TR class is in good direction. Stealth is now a less passive/penultimate offense/defense, and the reliance to stealth is much lower than before.
However, all three paths -- Saboteuer, Scoundrel, Executioner -- lack adequate measures of survival which for a long time TRs including myself have suggested. In our original argument, the passive reliance to stealth was something that should have been replaced by a TR that uses stealth as a tool and a measure to increase combat efficiency. At the very heart of that change, was supposed to be TRs with greatly increased general traits that included:
increase in CCs
increase in defensive stats -- such as deflection and defense
considerable increase in mobility -- particularly with gap-closers and movement speed
considerable increase in special utilities -- such as powers with defensive effects such as IMMUNITY frames
Without these lines of general changes, the TR is even more of a glass-cannon than the CW is -- and that is speaking for only ONE of the paths -- Executioner -- which is greatly overpowered so far. The other two has neither damage, nor survivability/utility it was promised, and hence remain a marginal interest in PvE, while woefully underperforming in PvP.
Again, most of the TRs who have a vision for the future, a diffrent, more active type of TR combat -- will generally agree with your direction of change. I am also grealty pleased by its GENERAL DIRECTION, but the current incarnation, I am afraid, is much too weak in terms of defense. I've even mentioned as a joke to some of my friends during testing, that "if they remove 50% of the overpoweredness of the Executioner path, and somehow convert that into survivability and distribute it to the TR in general, it'd be perfect." That is the current reality of where the TRs are at.
I cannot emphasize enough, the general importance of TR self-defense.
The developers must remeber that ONLY when most TRs feel that they have adequate number of tools/specs that help survive the mega-damage/CC onslaught the PvP is nowadays, that they can truly walk away from their addiction, affliction, and total reliance to stealth and what it used to mean for them.
We'd actually like to have to do away with Shadow Strike from our encounter slot for once, have it considered as an encounter used by only certain TR builds that emphasize restealthing as a necessity -- instead of still have it embedded in our slots, yet again limiting our encounter choice to only one -- since most (MIs, obviousl) would still need ITC and SS.
We, TRs, need to be able to fight against all the others when we are not in stealth.
This means we need to be able to:
be able to catch up with HRs and CWs and SWs hitting from afar and stay on them
withstand the ranged CC-burst tactics coming from CWs at a reasonable rate
be able to hit and damage the HRs as they zip and dart with 6 dodges plus a retreat power, and then deflect more than half of our attacks and enter self healing that does more than 2k HPS
be able to avoid and outmaneuver the stun-fest GFs and GWFs with their stun-heavy hit tactics
be able to penetrate the amount of defenses and deal damage strong enough to hurt DCs
Currently, none of it is possible without stealth -- Even AFTER these changes. Only the Executioner path can really do it, in a hit-or-die gamble that involves the mega-hit Lashing Blade. Hence, for Executioners it is stealth-mega LB or bust. For Saboteuers and Scoundrels, it is still impossible, and even more impossible now that stealth is suppressed but no extra defensive measures have been given.
Hence, these are my suggestions -- in regards to GENERAL changes to the TR class itself, that might be required, in order for the new direction of TRs to work successfully both in PvP and PvE. These changes should be applied ON TOP of the current incarnation of TRs as seen in preview:
DEX should provide increase in base movement speed, 0.75% per point over threshold (
ie. 25 DEX = 11.25% ... 30 DEX = 15% faster base movement speed)DEX should provide extra increase in stamina regeneration rate
Stamina cost for DODGE should be reduced to 33% of default stamina pool
DODGE, should be more prompt and responsive like the HR, shorter in distance, quicker in rolling speed, so that it is possible to anticipate, dodge attack,
and then immediately retaliate -- instead of slowly dodging a long distance away, and having to walk back to the target, only to find out you've missed the chance to attack and he's now 50' awayThe following powers should have IMMUNITY frames associated with it: ■ Deft Strike ■ Bait and Switch ■ Vengeance's Pursuit ■ Blitz
CC effects on the following powers need to be strengthened: ■ Deft Strike: longer duration of SLOW ■ Vengeance's Pursuit:stealth:teleport: longer duration of STUN ■ Impact Shot:stealth: longer duration of STUN ■ Impact Shot: stronger PUSH
The above line of changes, are the BARE MINIMUM, IMO, that needs for the new TR changes to stealth and path/feats, to function as intended.
Whisperknife Problems
As my area of expertise is more limited to Whisperknives, I will add in one more series of comments concerning the Whisperknife. As it is, even with the ITC nerf in place WKs are still generally much too weak than compared to MIs in that it lacks some key features.
VP, is still much too unreliable and limited, as to be considered real protection against CCs
class features are still too weak and unintuitive when it comes to their role in combat
considering the "ranged" emphasis of the Whisper"knife", the basic Cloud of Steel and Disheartening Strikes at-wills limit the range of damage output -- particularly in PvP. Due to no changes to the basic TR features, the Quality-Of-Life(QOL) for melee at-wills are still great limited.
Plainly speaking, it's still godda*ned too difficult to really land melee attacks in PvP, and especially if you need to hit them reliably as a long chain to make it work, unlike encounters. That means to maximize our damage Whisperknives are limited to good use of CoS and Disheartening Strike, of which the former limitation to 8 charges may work as a balancing tool against the MI, but a serious inhibition to WhisperknivesHence, the following are my suggestions to Whisperknives:
Dagger Threat: it is this class feature, that should be receiving a 33/66/100% damage boost for ranged attacks made within 20' of target -- not First Strike
Vengeance's Pursuit:Needs 3 charges, like Wicked Reminder.
Vengeance's Pursuit:stealth:teleport: Need its stun effect duration increased to 3 seconds -- at least let this Paragon path be able to deal a stun like the GF/GWFs can...
Vengeance's Pursuit:mark deflection chance increased by 3/6/9% when the 'mark' is on
Advantageous Positioning: change the feature to more closely match the concept of what it is in D&D4th -- anytime there is an enemy in melee range, you receive 10/20/30% extra damage resistance to ranged attacks
As I've already provided Feedback for the 3 different paths, I will not repeat it here.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Wait a minute... about Disheartening Strike ...
They didn't increase the BASE DAMAGE TO MATCH THE LENGTHENED POWER DURATION...!!!!
Oh dear lord.. **facepalm**..
What they did was reduce the damage by 10%, and then divide that by 15 seconds;;;
So now, a single tick of DHS does roughly 1/3rd of what it used to do.
No wonder the damage became so uselessly weak....
THIS IS AN OUTRAGE... They've actually made the Whisperknife even WEAKER!!!!!
We might as well call it the "Weakerknife" now...
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'