Feedback: Scoundrel path / effects of tenacity and WIS
This just came up to my mind. The micro dazes provided by Scoundrel feats would become nigh useless if they are even more shortened by tenacity.
I suggest the feat-provided micro dazes either:
not be effected by tenacity, WIS, racial traits and other variable which may increase or decrease its duration -- hence, be static in its listed duration
or, if it be effected by such variables, then BOTH the variables that either shorten or lengthen the duration should equally effect, hence WIS, control bonus, boons and etc. that may lengthen its duration will directly counter the effects of WIS, tenacity, racial traits that may attempt to shorten it
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Looking at the execution tree and seeing people who still complain is sad. 30k+ leashing blade + 15k piercing damage after 6 seconds + daily does the job afterwards use shadowstrike and 10 sec invis if you dont attack.
Lesser Bonding Stones are 120 lower in stats than Perfect ones, so that's 360 less stat points. (PvE)
Offense R7s (if you go Radiant for all power) are about 130k AD a pop and give 115 less stats, compared to R10s. At 6 of theses (PvP) you get 690 less stat points. At 9 of them (Allure Stone = +3 offense enchants) (PvE) you get 1035 less stat points.
(Edit: forgot about defense)
Defense R7s (if you go for HP+stats) are about 160k AD a pop and give 260 less HP and 65 less def. So 3 of those add up to 780 HP and 195 def less.
That's a grand total of -780HP and -885 stats for PvP and -780HP and -1590 stats for PvE. That difference is utterly irrelevant due to soft caps which you reach anyway through gear and the tons of boons we've been given so far.
So no, you don't need R10s to be an OP 1-shot executioner. You just need to grind dungeons for a few weeks, get 2mil AD and buy the above mentioned. You'd still reach 8k power in PvE and about 6k in PvP.
1) Lashing Blade + P vorp (50% more dmg) + First strike (100% more dmg) + Shadowborn (100% more power) + Shadow of Demise = INSTANT DEATH
2) When against people with low life ---> Gloaming Cut (+75% dmg) + PVorp (+50% dmg) + Last Moment (+70% dmg) = INSTANT DEATH
3) WK damage nerf, as if they aren't weak enough, good job.
1) Lashing Blade + P vorp (50% more dmg) + First strike (100% more dmg) + Shadowborn (100% more power) + Shadow of Demise = INSTANT DEATH
2) When against people with low life ---> Gloaming Cut (+75% dmg) + PVorp (+50% dmg) + Last Moment (+70% dmg) = INSTANT DEATH
3) WK damage nerf, as if they aren't weak enough, good job.
PVorp doesn't do 50% extra damage, it gives 50% extra crit severity. It's different, and a lot lower, but still powerful.
Last Moment doesn't do 70% extra damage. It does 25% extra if the target is below 40% health. If you're in stealth, you do the same 25% extra damage, but if the target is below 70% health.
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nwnghostMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2014
This feedback is based on reading your changelog, not by testing on Preview, as the changes are not yet uploaded onto preview.
For PvE:
There remains a lack of directly useful Daily Powers to be used. Usually you end up using Whirlwind of Blades and Lurker's Assault. I'd like to see Whirlwind have a higher target cap to give the TR a bit of multi-target utility. If necessary, restrict this to Whisperknives only.
Changes to Powers generally I can agree with, but I feel that Sly Flourish needs some love. It deals significantly less damage than Duelist's Flurry because of several reasons:
No damage over time bleed (which unlike other DoT effects actually re-procs weapon enchants and feats)
Slowish attack animation + forced movement
Hits target 3 times whilst Flurry hits for 9+ bleed
No Control Immunity during animation
Does not chase moving target
Something to consider is that the TR isn't the primary target of monsters, meaning that you can use Duelist's Flurry completely undisturbed and you are extremely unlikely to ever miss the Flurry portion. Even if you are the target, most enemies are unlikely to 1-hit you due to high deflect and other defensive capabilities. 1 Flurry usually heals the TR back to full with lifesteal as well, ditto with bleed.
With the rework, you have taken out the Scoundrel feat which made Sly Flourish semi-useful by giving it a 10% damage boost (but still inferior to Duelist's Flurry) and also made Piercing damage proc on every hit, which is a direct buff to Duelist's Flurry which strikes targets many times and then procs a bleed which will also proc Piercing Damage due to it being a "special" DoT effect. As a result, no TR will want to ever use Sly Flourish following this, as the synergy between Piercing damage proced by each hit is simply too great to ignore.
Unless you somehow boost Sly Flourish by say 20% and speed up the animation slightly, it will end up like Reaping Strike on the GWF. Skipped or only used while trying to get to 60, then dumped. And even with this suggested buff, Duelist's Flurry will still be the better option generally.
In terms of other powers, I feel Disheartening Strike ought to do damage at 0.5 second intervals rather than 1 second intervals because targets don't normally live very long unless they are bosses, and you spending time stacking Disheartening Strike on as many mobs as you can will overall lead to less benefit/damage than just throwing it once and using Duelist' Flurry after that with the piercing damage boost, easily dealing 100% more damage than it deals currently (the minor flurry attacks being buffed disproportionately and bleed stacks).
Whisperknife generally needs more buffs to keep it competitive with Master Infiltrator as Vengeance's Pursuit even with the fix likely won't break a Prone/Knockdown, while Impossible to Catch prevents it happening in the first place, and Skillful Infiltrator is probably one of the best Class features out there, with which Whisperknife ones cannot compete. I have previously on the TR forum suggested boosting Dagger Threat to 25% damage boost and increase the range of the class feature to 40' and boost Razor Action by at least 150%-200% as its damage is simply pitiful and requires a Daily Power to even trigger.
While it is nice that you are buffing Courage Breaker slightly, the fact that the damage reduction portion doesn't correctly reduce the target's damage by 90% will continue to make this Daily Power non-that-great. As outlined in my Bug Thread, it correctly reduces movement speed by 90% and damage only by 30% at rank 3.
In terms of feat trees, Scoundrel actually would compare extremely well in DPS with Executioner, especially on a TR build that uses PvP armor and Improved Cunning Sneak feat. This is primarily due to the Shadowy Opportunity Feat. I would probably tone that one down to 45% increased damage while attacking from Stealth, because with the item set and the heroic feat, using Shadow Strike +/- Bait and Switch AND one with the shadows capstone, you still would manage to maintain perma stealth while being able to attack with extremely damaging At-Wills, such as Duelist's Flurry, making Saboteur almost the go-to tree for PvE DPS, because targets will not attack you while stealthed, even if you are in their face.
Scoundrel overall seems weaker than in Module 4. The loss of At-Will boosting feats and fast AP gain probably stings the most, and the added CC in my opinion does not make up for it. Firstly, giving a 1 second stun every 5 seconds for a TR isn't overly useful due to low target cap and monsters that can be CCed in the first place usually are low HP and weak anyway. Unless you make the CC affect Champion Monsters through their usual CC immunity, noone will want to pick those feats.
The Capstone is also comparatively weak as it lasts for 4 seconds (daze and 25% bonus damage), while the Saboteur one essentially lasts for 9 seconds (stealth boost) and Executioner one lasts for 6.
What I think would be a better idea is to make the Saboteur tree boost CC encounters, such as Smoke Bomb and apply longer stuns/dazes than 1 second on monsters.
Consider my previous suggestions on TR (particularly Scoundrel from this thread)
Executioner had some good changes which made it more burst damage and tactical than simply Critical Severity everywhere and I feel that is a good thing and brings some skill into playing it.
In terms of location of Paragon Feats, I am concerned about Arterial Cut being a T1 and easily picked up by other Paragons. Potentially Flashing Blades as well, but not quite as much.
For PvP:
The basic premise is a stealth-focussed build using Profound Armor set and feating Improved Cunning Sneak.
First Strike + Stealth + Lashing Blade will become a devastating Combo, especially for Saboteurs who gain large amounts of bonus damage from Stealth. That build would continue to focus on INT + Recovery to have a low cooldown on Lashing Blade and just exit combat after one-shotting a player. The more skillful TRs will likely swap out First Strike immediately after using Lashing Blade and continue to harass players from near-perma stealth as outlined in the PvE section.
In a way, this isn't changing the meta much other than make players go from Exectioner to Saboteur + Arterial Cut.
Scoundrel wouldn't have sufficient survivability to benefit much from the added CC, which is very minor even for PvP.
Executioner could work, but would be less efficient than Saboteur at dealing burst damage, especially from Stealth.
Overall, I think many of the changes are good. Thanks!
What I think may need a bit more work:
Shocking Execution: Bring the damage back up some - this is the highest level Daily for the paragon path. Maybe not where it was originally, but at least better than the current level (+25% maybe).
Dazing Strike: Please speed up the animation - it is so slow right now.
That's about all I have. There are some other good suggestions as well.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!" pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all." looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
Scoundrel overall seems weaker than in Module 4. The loss of At-Will boosting feats and fast AP gain probably stings the most, and the added CC in my opinion does not make up for it. Firstly, giving a 1 second stun every 5 seconds for a TR isn't overly useful due to low target cap and monsters that can be CCed in the first place usually are low HP and weak anyway. Unless you make the CC affect Champion Monsters through their usual CC immunity, noone will want to pick those feats.
The Capstone is also comparatively weak as it lasts for 4 seconds (daze and 25% bonus damage), while the Saboteur one essentially lasts for 9 seconds (stealth boost) and Executioner one lasts for 6.
What I think would be a better idea is to make the Saboteur tree boost CC encounters, such as Smoke Bomb and apply longer stuns/dazes than 1 second on monsters.
Consider my previous suggestions on TR (particularly Scoundrel from this thread)
The other think that hurt the scoundrel was removing the 10% DR debuff. That type of playstyle is more in line with the idea of a scoundrel. And yes, the microstuns are slightly redundant-seeming, as are all the deflect stacks.
I think executioner will be really powerful, saboteur might be fun to play, but I'm worried that scoundrel might get the short end of the stick as someone else said, also I think WK is still too weak compared to MI but I would have to test it to be sure.
Any ideas when will this hit preview?
I would have prefered if instead of at wills draining stealth, they would have made so no encounters refill it, at least it would give us a solid 5 secs to use at wills, but we can't even do that now.
If at wills reduce a set% of the stealth meter I think the base duration of it needs to be longer. (while using at wills it will go off in the same time because of a set% but it gives us more time to run or better place ourselves when NOT using attacks, which I think stealth should be useful for.
1) Lashing Blade + P vorp (50% more dmg) + First strike (100% more dmg) + Shadowborn (100% more power) + Shadow of Demise = INSTANT DEATH
2) When against people with low life ---> Gloaming Cut (+75% dmg) + PVorp (+50% dmg) + Last Moment (+70% dmg) = INSTANT DEATH
3) WK damage nerf, as if they aren't weak enough, good job.
1. WK can use Lashing Blade and the Executioner tree.
2. 100% Crit on Disheartening Strike with PVorp and twice the duration seems pretty strong.
I would have prefered if instead of at wills draining stealth, they would have made so no encounters refill it, at least it would give us a solid 5 secs to use at wills, but we can't even do that now.
If at wills reduce a set% of the stealth meter I think the base duration of it needs to be longer. (while using at wills it will go off in the same time because of a set% but it gives us more time to run or better place ourselves when NOT using attacks, which I think stealth should be useful for.
The only two At-Wills worth using from Stealth will be Gloaming Cut (doesn't drain it) and Disheartening Strike (100% Crit means only one knife needed per target). All the others will fully deplete Stealth before you've finished one complete 'combo'. This effectively means that DF is no longer a PvP choice as you will never land it out of stealth.
even DS isn't a very good option, unless you want to use it on 2 people at most. On live server (with no stealth extending armor set) I can use it on 3-4 people before stealth goes away, now I'l get probably 2 at most.
In my opinion: I think one of the main class problems wasn't adressed, we're slow, we have just 2 dodges, our attacks nail us to the ground for too long. TR should be all about mobility and fast attacks, and currently it's basically the contrary.
While I welcome changes to the TR and have not yet had a chance to test these I can get an idea from theory. I wonder with all the continuous and increasing need to balance and improve classes if we haven't lost sight of the forest for the trees. Some of my concerns have even been realized by events in PvP and the decline of the TR's effectiveness in PvE (through both direct nerfs and attrition of gear/power creep). These changes even reveal more concerns for the original problem that led to the TR downfall -- and that was PvP one shot capabilities. Already other classes are exhibiting this capability in PvP (although sometimes it is two shot but it is delivered in such a way that a single course of actions sets this up) and already people are asking for an increase in tenacity in PvP.
As odd as this may sound, some of the problems with TR as well as other classes and PvP could have been actually fixed with a simple solution initially, and that would have been a reduction in the damage of ALL classes by a specific percentage. A reduction in Life Steal effectiveness and an increase in NPC damage could have fixed others, but instead it seems we are coming full circle to again repeat some of same problems.
Remember, one issue with TR's ability to do damage in PvE is that the ranged classes can generally kill most targets before the TR can even engage, and these changes here will not improve situations that much in those cases for the TR, although they will elevate the TR damage some (for the executioner and saboteur lines anyways).
Just some thoughts here, and maybe I am getting ahead of events but there has been too much of a need to balance and it seems to be increasing steadily and even now there is balancing of the previous balance and concerns of what such changes may entail. I mean I still feel like this is a beta half the time and there are TR bugs that have been around since the beginning that have not been addressed and cause some damage to be missing from what should have been (the various CA/char issues and such).
While I welcome changes to the TR and have not yet had a chance to test these I can get an idea from theory. I wonder with all the continuous and increasing need to balance and improve classes if we haven't lost sight of the forest for the trees. Some of my concerns have even been realized by events in PvP and the decline of the TR's effectiveness in PvE (through both direct nerfs and attrition of gear/power creep). These changes even reveal more concerns for the original problem that led to the TR downfall -- and that was PvP one shot capabilities. Already other classes are exhibiting this capability in PvP (although sometimes it is two shot but it is delivered in such a way that a single course of actions sets this up) and already people are asking for an increase in tenacity in PvP.
As odd as this may sound, some of the problems with TR as well as other classes and PvP could have been actually fixed with a simple solution initially, and that would have been a reduction in the damage of ALL classes by a specific percentage. A reduction in Life Steal effectiveness and an increase in NPC damage could have fixed others, but instead it seems we are coming full circle to again repeat some of same problems.
Remember, one issue with TR's ability to do damage in PvE is that the ranged classes can generally kill most targets before the TR can even engage, and these changes here will not improve situations that much in those cases for the TR, although they will elevate the TR damage some (for the executioner and saboteur lines anyways).
Just some thoughts here, and maybe I am getting ahead of events but there has been too much of a need to balance and it seems to be increasing steadily and even now there is balancing of the previous balance and concerns of what such changes may entail. I mean I still feel like this is a beta half the time and there are TR bugs that have been around since the beginning that have not been addressed and cause some damage to be missing from what should have been (the various CA/char issues and such).
++1 ++1 on this
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blackperry99Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 13Arc User
edited October 2014
Feedback:
Nerfing stealth, we are Rogues, Stealth is the main DPS source ! From stealth we deal most of our damage, why do you guys nerf it then? To kill us? To completely destroy us? Nerfing PS is fine, buth completely destroying it ....... Sjees man
Personally, I like the current direction if there will will be tougher content in mod 5. Would be nice to see TR "needed" again in groups.
And for all this PvP QQ: TRs are supposed to oneshot things, exactly this is their role! If you don't believe it, here's a description of the 4e trickster:
The Dungeons and Dragons 4e role that Trickster Rogues fit into is the Striker, also known as DPS (Damage Per Second). Trickster Rogues specifically focus on concentrating their efforts on a single powerful enemy. They favor offense over defense, using powers that first trick foes and then striking them with deadly force from an unforeseen direction.
Their primary method of defeating enemies is through misdirection, such as using their ability to present an illusory self while sneaking around to deliver a powerful attack. Trickster Rogues should focus on the toughest enemy first, then move on to the easier and less deadly minions. This is a vital tactic to use or the Trickster Rogue can become quickly overwhelmed.
Bottom line is, there is nothing wrong with tricksters doing a lot of damage. If this game wants to earn its D&D label, it has to offer a trickster rogue who can kill many enemies very fast or even oneshot them. Again, don't expect balanced classes in a D&D game.
Feedback:
Nerfing stealth, we are Rogues, Stealth is the main DPS source ! From stealth we deal most of our damage, why do you guys nerf it then? To kill us? To completely destroy us? Nerfing PS is fine, buth completely destroying it ....... Sjees man
finally they are putting stealth where it should be - a gap closer, instead of running permanently stealthed while attacking
and i doubt tr 1shotting ppl in pvp counts as "destroying the class"
Paladin Master Race
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Feedback:
Nerfing stealth, we are Rogues, Stealth is the main DPS source ! From stealth we deal most of our damage, why do you guys nerf it then? To kill us? To completely destroy us? Nerfing PS is fine, buth completely destroying it ....... Sjees man
I think one of the main class problems wasn't adressed, we're slow, we have just 2 dodges, our attacks nail us to the ground for too long. TR should be all about mobility and fast attacks, and currently it's basically the contrary.
Reminds me of when my WK was trying to fight a dragon with DF. First time I died was when I was still stuck in the attack animation and couldn't cancel it fast enough. Second time was when I was already freakin winded and out of stamina and moved like a snail so an AoE nailed me.
Seriously, I swear the TR has the least mobility of all the classes. Even the GF can dart around with their shield up.
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shunterinoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2014
Type:Feedback Spec: Overall Would be very much appreciated if you were a little more consistent in the way you breakdown the changes for us. Sometimes we are told if feats stack, other times not. Sometimes we are told if there is a CD, other times not. It's probably obvious to you which effects work how, but it really isn't to us and rather than waste time trying to figure this out it would be great to just get on with testing the actual gameplay. Please help us to help you. .
Type:Feedback Spec: Scoundrel A number of feats here add a daze effect (which is fine) but it isn't clear what happens when the activating power itself is a daze. Are the dazes cumulative? Does one supercede the other? The times are quite small so will be hard to work it out through testing and I really don't see a reason to not just tell us. A simple clarification would be appreciated. .
Type:Feedback Spec: Executioner Clearly this will be the most popular tree, and will cause the most complaints from PVPers. One-shotting from stealth was a major cause of QQing last time and will be again. A simple solution would be to just make the more extreme buffs have lesser effects in PVP than PVE. You've done this for some of the other classes (prones have different durations on mobs and players, etc.) and this would help curtail some of the loudest wailing. You may of course be planning to do this already, but sooner rather than later would be best, imho..
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chestnut13Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 176Arc User
edited October 2014
I don't want to comment on the efficacy of the new changes until there is significant feedback from testing. However, from an overview type of perspective, this seems rushed and half-assed. There are some great seeds but it doesn't seem as if there has been a comprehensive rework which is what's needed. These are band-aids when the arm is broken. Increased damage is great. Different playstyle trees is great. Reduced ability to stealth is great. Dying continually will suck.
There is no addressing the key issue for a TR out of stealth ... survivability. Perhaps we are not being told background details? If so, please tell us. Do we get an increased base hit point pool? Increased base AC? I will say that if nothing is done to improve the movement mechanics of a TR, I'll be done. I've never been a perma and have had excellent success at both PVE and PVP. I did so by speccing and using artifacts that allowed me more stamina and a psuedo extra dodge roll. It's a lifesaver. Even the simple addition of an extra dodge would be major. If there are no feats for assisting stamina refill, this is all wasted.
The most asinine thing about being a TR is that if your stealth runs out and you try to escape you can be run down and finished off by all classes, except a DC who wouldn't bother. Makes zero sense that a lumbering GF in plate armor and carrying a huge shield can chase you down and kill you. Part of a TRs baseline story is to hit and run. Leather armor, less defense but high speed and manueverability ... duh. I don't know about everyone else but I run like molasses going uphill in January.
The point is that so far I see 100 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean. It's only a good start.
Change speed and manueverability or it's going to be like that John Daly country song ....
"I hit it hard man, so hard man.
I slice my daggers, but then I pay.
But ain't Neverwinter s'posed to be that way?"
The way it's phrased in the notes, it's At-Will use that drains 15% stealth. Not doing damage with them. The way I interpret that is that by the time you made the first two air-shots with DF you've drained 15% of your stealth before you even start the Flurry stage. It's not clear if the entire Flurry will count as a single 15% drain or multiple, but best case scenario DF will eat 45% of your stealth bar start to finish, and you'll need at least 30% stealth left when you start or you'll be out of stealth before landing the third phase.
So probably not technically impossible, but a whole bunch more difficult than it is now. And it's hardly easy as is.
I would sincerely hope that it is At will use that CONNECTS that drains 15% stealth. And that the 3rd phase of flurry is considered to be a single attack or at the very least bleed stacks will not count as stealth drain. Currently, for feat procs and wep procs the flurry phase consists of 8 flurry cuts and 0-8 bleed stacks. If each of these count as a single "at will use" you can kiss your stealth goodbye. The average flurry phase would count as 12 procs x 15% stealth drain = 180% stealth drain. On the flip side of the coin, if the flurry phase is considered to be 1 attack, as it is with master duelist T1 armor, we are talking astronomical damage with stealth auto crit. I calculate my flurry damage to be around 17k with stealth bonuses and no crits. With M5 auto crit and feat buffs on a slightly better geared rogue we are looking at potentially 40k+ damage as a low estimate on flurry, which might be appropriate in PVE but insanity in pvp.
I'm seeing a clear issue that is going to raise it's ugly head and bite the devs hard in the rear if they don't address it. Give rogue appropriate PVE damage and the class is going to god-tier OP in pvp. Give the class balanced PVP damage and they will be very weak in PVE.
I would propose a very simple solution.
DISABLE STEALTH AUTO-CRIT in PVP only. From there if they are still underperforming in PVE it would be relatively simple to buff them in PVE via target caps and hit detection range on abilities such as dazing strike, wicked reminder, and whirlwind of blades. Or adding debuff or DOT effects to smoke bomb.
My gut feeling is that all the feat buffs are going to make TRs VERY powerful in pvp, minus the auto-crit and they might be sitting in a fairly good position. On that note it's clear to see that scoundrel and saboteur paths are still being heavily overshadowed by executioner PVE or PVP.
With auto-crit disabled in pvp only, I would also like to see the stealth drain reduced to 5% per at-will use, and lashing blade CD reduced by 40%.
The nerf to ITC is really not that bad. TBH I am a little confused about how it would work. +50% DR isn't any better than 100% deflection. So is the 50% DR additive to the deflection or does it replace it? 100% deflection at 75% severity + 50% DR is a pretty minor nerf. At this point the rogue is taking 12.5% of normal damage not including his own DR. However, if 50% DR replaces the 100% deflection then there will be no reason to use ITC from stealth ever. Which, honestly, isn't that big of a deal because now rogues would have significant reason to use damage dealing encounters from stealth anyway. Hopefully this change will correct the ITC bug. In my experience the bug triggers when ITC(damage immunity) is activated at the same time the rogue takes unresistable damage. Changing it to added DR will hopefully fix this bug, which may be one reason why they are doing it. The ITC bug would likely still exist in the form of prones causing an issue where the rogue activates ITC at the split second he is caught by a prone(prones cannot be broken, yet someone CC immune cannot be proned).
My 2 cents after reading over the proposed changes, will make specific comments after I test them. Also, people, chill out. Constructive criticism here, build on the proposed changes, don't cling to old favorites in the form of feats and powers, look at the big picture. We knew this was coming, don't nitpick single changes, think through the synergies.
From what I can see so far, this is a MASSIVE buff to the TR class. It's not exactly what I wanted, but that's to be expected, and I can work with it. Enough for PVE? Hard to say at this point, going to need to do quite a bit of testing to make that call. Too much for PVP? At this point I would say definitively, YES.
Soooo... I assume ITC can no longer break CCs? or what?
The take no damage portion likely has no connection to the cc portion of the power. My guess is on an world with piercing damage this is a better mechanic.
How will this impact the set bonuses of Battlefield Skulker and the PVP sets? (also Improved Cunning Sneak) They increase the duration of your stealth but the changes reduce your stealth by a percentage of the total. It seems to me that the duration bonuses won't be worth much of anything with the changes, leaving only the bonus to damage.
Additionally, I think the mechanism of stealth (and stealth regen) being reduced by damage should be reconsidered. If perma isn't viable now and at-wills reduce stealth, I think the class deserves to at least have stealth duration unaffected by damage. It's already impossible to get stealth back in many fights in Karru due to ever present AoE and in newer content there is a lot of untargeted attacks (Valindra's MM attack) and many ToD mobs have some kind of DoT power.
Also, can something be done about Bait and Switch? Mobs ignore it, regardless of whether it is closer - even when the TR is stealthed. They will stand around doing nothing or sometimes even follow the invisible rogue around. It's pretty rare that a mob even hits it once or twice.
I would also like to voice my support for a buff of the shift mechanism. Our survival depends on not getting hit and there are too many things that spam AoEs and untargeted (Forgecallers in Karru for instance) attacks for us to avoid damage and stay in melee range. Additionally, perhaps Deft Strike could have a built in dodge?
"We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
Additionally, I think the mechanism of stealth (and stealth regen) being reduced by damage should be reconsidered. If perma isn't viable now and at-wills reduce stealth, I think the class deserves to at least have stealth duration unaffected by damage. It's already impossible to get stealth back in many fights in Karru due to ever present AoE and in newer content there is a lot of untargeted attacks (Valindra's MM attack) and many ToD mobs have some kind of DoT power.
Also, can something be done about Bait and Switch? Mobs ignore it, regardless of whether it is closer - even when the TR is stealthed. They will stand around doing nothing or sometimes even follow the invisible rogue around. It's pretty rare that a mob even hits it once or twice.
I would also like to voice my support for a buff of the shift mechanism. Our survival depends on not getting hit and there are too many things that spam AoEs and untargeted (Forgecallers in Karru for instance) attacks for us to avoid damage and stay in melee range. Additionally, perhaps Deft Strike could have a built in dodge?
Comments
This just came up to my mind. The micro dazes provided by Scoundrel feats would become nigh useless if they are even more shortened by tenacity.
I suggest the feat-provided micro dazes either:
not be effected by tenacity, WIS, racial traits and other variable which may increase or decrease its duration -- hence, be static in its listed duration
or, if it be effected by such variables, then BOTH the variables that either shorten or lengthen the duration should equally effect, hence WIS, control bonus, boons and etc. that may lengthen its duration will directly counter the effects of WIS, tenacity, racial traits that may attempt to shorten it
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Offense R7s (if you go Radiant for all power) are about 130k AD a pop and give 115 less stats, compared to R10s. At 6 of theses (PvP) you get 690 less stat points. At 9 of them (Allure Stone = +3 offense enchants) (PvE) you get 1035 less stat points.
(Edit: forgot about defense)
Defense R7s (if you go for HP+stats) are about 160k AD a pop and give 260 less HP and 65 less def. So 3 of those add up to 780 HP and 195 def less.
That's a grand total of -780HP and -885 stats for PvP and -780HP and -1590 stats for PvE. That difference is utterly irrelevant due to soft caps which you reach anyway through gear and the tons of boons we've been given so far.
So no, you don't need R10s to be an OP 1-shot executioner. You just need to grind dungeons for a few weeks, get 2mil AD and buy the above mentioned. You'd still reach 8k power in PvE and about 6k in PvP.
2) When against people with low life ---> Gloaming Cut (+75% dmg) + PVorp (+50% dmg) + Last Moment (+70% dmg) = INSTANT DEATH
3) WK damage nerf, as if they aren't weak enough, good job.
Mod 12.5 PvP Power/Crit/Arp Optimization
Youtube channel (PvE/PvP)
PVorp doesn't do 50% extra damage, it gives 50% extra crit severity. It's different, and a lot lower, but still powerful.
Last Moment doesn't do 70% extra damage. It does 25% extra if the target is below 40% health. If you're in stealth, you do the same 25% extra damage, but if the target is below 70% health.
For PvE:
There remains a lack of directly useful Daily Powers to be used. Usually you end up using Whirlwind of Blades and Lurker's Assault. I'd like to see Whirlwind have a higher target cap to give the TR a bit of multi-target utility. If necessary, restrict this to Whisperknives only.
Changes to Powers generally I can agree with, but I feel that Sly Flourish needs some love. It deals significantly less damage than Duelist's Flurry because of several reasons:
- No damage over time bleed (which unlike other DoT effects actually re-procs weapon enchants and feats)
- Slowish attack animation + forced movement
- Hits target 3 times whilst Flurry hits for 9+ bleed
- No Control Immunity during animation
- Does not chase moving target
Something to consider is that the TR isn't the primary target of monsters, meaning that you can use Duelist's Flurry completely undisturbed and you are extremely unlikely to ever miss the Flurry portion. Even if you are the target, most enemies are unlikely to 1-hit you due to high deflect and other defensive capabilities. 1 Flurry usually heals the TR back to full with lifesteal as well, ditto with bleed.With the rework, you have taken out the Scoundrel feat which made Sly Flourish semi-useful by giving it a 10% damage boost (but still inferior to Duelist's Flurry) and also made Piercing damage proc on every hit, which is a direct buff to Duelist's Flurry which strikes targets many times and then procs a bleed which will also proc Piercing Damage due to it being a "special" DoT effect. As a result, no TR will want to ever use Sly Flourish following this, as the synergy between Piercing damage proced by each hit is simply too great to ignore.
Unless you somehow boost Sly Flourish by say 20% and speed up the animation slightly, it will end up like Reaping Strike on the GWF. Skipped or only used while trying to get to 60, then dumped. And even with this suggested buff, Duelist's Flurry will still be the better option generally.
In terms of other powers, I feel Disheartening Strike ought to do damage at 0.5 second intervals rather than 1 second intervals because targets don't normally live very long unless they are bosses, and you spending time stacking Disheartening Strike on as many mobs as you can will overall lead to less benefit/damage than just throwing it once and using Duelist' Flurry after that with the piercing damage boost, easily dealing 100% more damage than it deals currently (the minor flurry attacks being buffed disproportionately and bleed stacks).
Whisperknife generally needs more buffs to keep it competitive with Master Infiltrator as Vengeance's Pursuit even with the fix likely won't break a Prone/Knockdown, while Impossible to Catch prevents it happening in the first place, and Skillful Infiltrator is probably one of the best Class features out there, with which Whisperknife ones cannot compete. I have previously on the TR forum suggested boosting Dagger Threat to 25% damage boost and increase the range of the class feature to 40' and boost Razor Action by at least 150%-200% as its damage is simply pitiful and requires a Daily Power to even trigger.
While it is nice that you are buffing Courage Breaker slightly, the fact that the damage reduction portion doesn't correctly reduce the target's damage by 90% will continue to make this Daily Power non-that-great. As outlined in my Bug Thread, it correctly reduces movement speed by 90% and damage only by 30% at rank 3.
In terms of feat trees, Scoundrel actually would compare extremely well in DPS with Executioner, especially on a TR build that uses PvP armor and Improved Cunning Sneak feat. This is primarily due to the Shadowy Opportunity Feat. I would probably tone that one down to 45% increased damage while attacking from Stealth, because with the item set and the heroic feat, using Shadow Strike +/- Bait and Switch AND one with the shadows capstone, you still would manage to maintain perma stealth while being able to attack with extremely damaging At-Wills, such as Duelist's Flurry, making Saboteur almost the go-to tree for PvE DPS, because targets will not attack you while stealthed, even if you are in their face.
Scoundrel overall seems weaker than in Module 4. The loss of At-Will boosting feats and fast AP gain probably stings the most, and the added CC in my opinion does not make up for it. Firstly, giving a 1 second stun every 5 seconds for a TR isn't overly useful due to low target cap and monsters that can be CCed in the first place usually are low HP and weak anyway. Unless you make the CC affect Champion Monsters through their usual CC immunity, noone will want to pick those feats.
The Capstone is also comparatively weak as it lasts for 4 seconds (daze and 25% bonus damage), while the Saboteur one essentially lasts for 9 seconds (stealth boost) and Executioner one lasts for 6.
What I think would be a better idea is to make the Saboteur tree boost CC encounters, such as Smoke Bomb and apply longer stuns/dazes than 1 second on monsters.
Consider my previous suggestions on TR (particularly Scoundrel from this thread)
Executioner had some good changes which made it more burst damage and tactical than simply Critical Severity everywhere and I feel that is a good thing and brings some skill into playing it.
In terms of location of Paragon Feats, I am concerned about Arterial Cut being a T1 and easily picked up by other Paragons. Potentially Flashing Blades as well, but not quite as much.
For PvP:
The basic premise is a stealth-focussed build using Profound Armor set and feating Improved Cunning Sneak.
First Strike + Stealth + Lashing Blade will become a devastating Combo, especially for Saboteurs who gain large amounts of bonus damage from Stealth. That build would continue to focus on INT + Recovery to have a low cooldown on Lashing Blade and just exit combat after one-shotting a player. The more skillful TRs will likely swap out First Strike immediately after using Lashing Blade and continue to harass players from near-perma stealth as outlined in the PvE section.
In a way, this isn't changing the meta much other than make players go from Exectioner to Saboteur + Arterial Cut.
Scoundrel wouldn't have sufficient survivability to benefit much from the added CC, which is very minor even for PvP.
Executioner could work, but would be less efficient than Saboteur at dealing burst damage, especially from Stealth.
What I think may need a bit more work:
Shocking Execution: Bring the damage back up some - this is the highest level Daily for the paragon path. Maybe not where it was originally, but at least better than the current level (+25% maybe).
Dazing Strike: Please speed up the animation - it is so slow right now.
That's about all I have. There are some other good suggestions as well.
Thanks for addressing this!!
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
The other think that hurt the scoundrel was removing the 10% DR debuff. That type of playstyle is more in line with the idea of a scoundrel. And yes, the microstuns are slightly redundant-seeming, as are all the deflect stacks.
Sharra Del'Armgo - SW Trapper Hybrid HR
Ogghra Bar'Ghuzumn - MI Scoundrel TR
Vænna Thrymskjöldr - IV Protector GF
Any ideas when will this hit preview?
If at wills reduce a set% of the stealth meter I think the base duration of it needs to be longer. (while using at wills it will go off in the same time because of a set% but it gives us more time to run or better place ourselves when NOT using attacks, which I think stealth should be useful for.
2. 100% Crit on Disheartening Strike with PVorp and twice the duration seems pretty strong.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
This is going to take some... adjustment.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
In my opinion:
I think one of the main class problems wasn't adressed, we're slow, we have just 2 dodges, our attacks nail us to the ground for too long. TR should be all about mobility and fast attacks, and currently it's basically the contrary.
As odd as this may sound, some of the problems with TR as well as other classes and PvP could have been actually fixed with a simple solution initially, and that would have been a reduction in the damage of ALL classes by a specific percentage. A reduction in Life Steal effectiveness and an increase in NPC damage could have fixed others, but instead it seems we are coming full circle to again repeat some of same problems.
Remember, one issue with TR's ability to do damage in PvE is that the ranged classes can generally kill most targets before the TR can even engage, and these changes here will not improve situations that much in those cases for the TR, although they will elevate the TR damage some (for the executioner and saboteur lines anyways).
Just some thoughts here, and maybe I am getting ahead of events but there has been too much of a need to balance and it seems to be increasing steadily and even now there is balancing of the previous balance and concerns of what such changes may entail. I mean I still feel like this is a beta half the time and there are TR bugs that have been around since the beginning that have not been addressed and cause some damage to be missing from what should have been (the various CA/char issues and such).
++1 ++1 on this
Nerfing stealth, we are Rogues, Stealth is the main DPS source ! From stealth we deal most of our damage, why do you guys nerf it then? To kill us? To completely destroy us? Nerfing PS is fine, buth completely destroying it ....... Sjees man
And for all this PvP QQ: TRs are supposed to oneshot things, exactly this is their role! If you don't believe it, here's a description of the 4e trickster:
Bottom line is, there is nothing wrong with tricksters doing a lot of damage. If this game wants to earn its D&D label, it has to offer a trickster rogue who can kill many enemies very fast or even oneshot them. Again, don't expect balanced classes in a D&D game.
And what about up count of TR dodge? 2 too small maybe?
What about CD encounters? Too long? It's wanna be reworked?
Sorry for my bad English:( I don't have 60 TR in preview and we can't test this changes in russian test server:(
finally they are putting stealth where it should be - a gap closer, instead of running permanently stealthed while attacking
and i doubt tr 1shotting ppl in pvp counts as "destroying the class"
You're rogues, not ninjas.
Reminds me of when my WK was trying to fight a dragon with DF. First time I died was when I was still stuck in the attack animation and couldn't cancel it fast enough. Second time was when I was already freakin winded and out of stamina and moved like a snail so an AoE nailed me.
Seriously, I swear the TR has the least mobility of all the classes. Even the GF can dart around with their shield up.
Spec: Overall
Would be very much appreciated if you were a little more consistent in the way you breakdown the changes for us. Sometimes we are told if feats stack, other times not. Sometimes we are told if there is a CD, other times not. It's probably obvious to you which effects work how, but it really isn't to us and rather than waste time trying to figure this out it would be great to just get on with testing the actual gameplay. Please help us to help you. .
Type:Feedback
Spec: Scoundrel
A number of feats here add a daze effect (which is fine) but it isn't clear what happens when the activating power itself is a daze. Are the dazes cumulative? Does one supercede the other? The times are quite small so will be hard to work it out through testing and I really don't see a reason to not just tell us. A simple clarification would be appreciated. .
Type:Feedback
Spec: Executioner
Clearly this will be the most popular tree, and will cause the most complaints from PVPers. One-shotting from stealth was a major cause of QQing last time and will be again. A simple solution would be to just make the more extreme buffs have lesser effects in PVP than PVE. You've done this for some of the other classes (prones have different durations on mobs and players, etc.) and this would help curtail some of the loudest wailing. You may of course be planning to do this already, but sooner rather than later would be best, imho..
There is no addressing the key issue for a TR out of stealth ... survivability. Perhaps we are not being told background details? If so, please tell us. Do we get an increased base hit point pool? Increased base AC? I will say that if nothing is done to improve the movement mechanics of a TR, I'll be done. I've never been a perma and have had excellent success at both PVE and PVP. I did so by speccing and using artifacts that allowed me more stamina and a psuedo extra dodge roll. It's a lifesaver. Even the simple addition of an extra dodge would be major. If there are no feats for assisting stamina refill, this is all wasted.
The most asinine thing about being a TR is that if your stealth runs out and you try to escape you can be run down and finished off by all classes, except a DC who wouldn't bother. Makes zero sense that a lumbering GF in plate armor and carrying a huge shield can chase you down and kill you. Part of a TRs baseline story is to hit and run. Leather armor, less defense but high speed and manueverability ... duh. I don't know about everyone else but I run like molasses going uphill in January.
The point is that so far I see 100 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean. It's only a good start.
Change speed and manueverability or it's going to be like that John Daly country song ....
"I hit it hard man, so hard man.
I slice my daggers, but then I pay.
But ain't Neverwinter s'posed to be that way?"
I would sincerely hope that it is At will use that CONNECTS that drains 15% stealth. And that the 3rd phase of flurry is considered to be a single attack or at the very least bleed stacks will not count as stealth drain. Currently, for feat procs and wep procs the flurry phase consists of 8 flurry cuts and 0-8 bleed stacks. If each of these count as a single "at will use" you can kiss your stealth goodbye. The average flurry phase would count as 12 procs x 15% stealth drain = 180% stealth drain. On the flip side of the coin, if the flurry phase is considered to be 1 attack, as it is with master duelist T1 armor, we are talking astronomical damage with stealth auto crit. I calculate my flurry damage to be around 17k with stealth bonuses and no crits. With M5 auto crit and feat buffs on a slightly better geared rogue we are looking at potentially 40k+ damage as a low estimate on flurry, which might be appropriate in PVE but insanity in pvp.
I'm seeing a clear issue that is going to raise it's ugly head and bite the devs hard in the rear if they don't address it. Give rogue appropriate PVE damage and the class is going to god-tier OP in pvp. Give the class balanced PVP damage and they will be very weak in PVE.
I would propose a very simple solution.
DISABLE STEALTH AUTO-CRIT in PVP only. From there if they are still underperforming in PVE it would be relatively simple to buff them in PVE via target caps and hit detection range on abilities such as dazing strike, wicked reminder, and whirlwind of blades. Or adding debuff or DOT effects to smoke bomb.
My gut feeling is that all the feat buffs are going to make TRs VERY powerful in pvp, minus the auto-crit and they might be sitting in a fairly good position. On that note it's clear to see that scoundrel and saboteur paths are still being heavily overshadowed by executioner PVE or PVP.
With auto-crit disabled in pvp only, I would also like to see the stealth drain reduced to 5% per at-will use, and lashing blade CD reduced by 40%.
The nerf to ITC is really not that bad. TBH I am a little confused about how it would work. +50% DR isn't any better than 100% deflection. So is the 50% DR additive to the deflection or does it replace it? 100% deflection at 75% severity + 50% DR is a pretty minor nerf. At this point the rogue is taking 12.5% of normal damage not including his own DR. However, if 50% DR replaces the 100% deflection then there will be no reason to use ITC from stealth ever. Which, honestly, isn't that big of a deal because now rogues would have significant reason to use damage dealing encounters from stealth anyway. Hopefully this change will correct the ITC bug. In my experience the bug triggers when ITC(damage immunity) is activated at the same time the rogue takes unresistable damage. Changing it to added DR will hopefully fix this bug, which may be one reason why they are doing it. The ITC bug would likely still exist in the form of prones causing an issue where the rogue activates ITC at the split second he is caught by a prone(prones cannot be broken, yet someone CC immune cannot be proned).
My 2 cents after reading over the proposed changes, will make specific comments after I test them. Also, people, chill out. Constructive criticism here, build on the proposed changes, don't cling to old favorites in the form of feats and powers, look at the big picture. We knew this was coming, don't nitpick single changes, think through the synergies.
From what I can see so far, this is a MASSIVE buff to the TR class. It's not exactly what I wanted, but that's to be expected, and I can work with it. Enough for PVE? Hard to say at this point, going to need to do quite a bit of testing to make that call. Too much for PVP? At this point I would say definitively, YES.
Massive damage Boosts for executioners with Lashing B. ok.
A lot of damages ? Really ? With this : "Low Blows: You deal 5/10/15/20/25% more damage to foes who are affected by a Control effect." ???
Control effects ? WHERE ?
I AM a Rogue, not a ninja, but i want Mobility, celerity, more dodges, (not deflection : dodge ! ) and a real control effect..
I want resistance ignored with primary stat.
Please. And sorry for my poor english.
The take no damage portion likely has no connection to the cc portion of the power. My guess is on an world with piercing damage this is a better mechanic.
Additionally, I think the mechanism of stealth (and stealth regen) being reduced by damage should be reconsidered. If perma isn't viable now and at-wills reduce stealth, I think the class deserves to at least have stealth duration unaffected by damage. It's already impossible to get stealth back in many fights in Karru due to ever present AoE and in newer content there is a lot of untargeted attacks (Valindra's MM attack) and many ToD mobs have some kind of DoT power.
Also, can something be done about Bait and Switch? Mobs ignore it, regardless of whether it is closer - even when the TR is stealthed. They will stand around doing nothing or sometimes even follow the invisible rogue around. It's pretty rare that a mob even hits it once or twice.
I would also like to voice my support for a buff of the shift mechanism. Our survival depends on not getting hit and there are too many things that spam AoEs and untargeted (Forgecallers in Karru for instance) attacks for us to avoid damage and stay in melee range. Additionally, perhaps Deft Strike could have a built in dodge?
100% agree wit this.