Yes. My War Priest DO gets slagged off if he out-damages a low-geared CW or GWF, and my AC Healer/Buffer gets slagged off because she is almost always bottom Paingiver and Executioner.
If there was also a measurable stat for Champion Buffer and Champion Debuffer, people would appreciate the role of a DC much more.
But I still play Legit and by the rules. So that means I Need on what I can Need on, or they can continue with no Priest at all and die in the Boss room. Cryptic set the RNG, and abiding by the RNG is the only way to play the game Legit. Otherwise, it's abusive and Exploitative.
If you do not get a drop for your class, the intent and design of the game is that you run the dungeon again.
Perverting that by forcing GRREEEEEEDDDDDDD!!!!! on under-geared players is Illegit, an Exploit and an Abuse of the intent of the coding.
Just like getting through a gap in a wall, standing in a place where you cannot be damaged or shooting at a Boss over the top of the Boss Room Gate.
:mad:
I'm sorry, what planet are you on? This is like saying someone choosing something different than you exploiting? I'm so confused here.
And maybe you run with idiots who don't appreciate DC, but my DC can double team DPS and keep them alive, who wouldn't want that? A good DC is amazing and valuable and it's only the idiots that don't understand that.
And when they blame the DC, remember. You can't heal stupid.
Lol the responeses im reading that are against the Greed system makes me sad
"Need if, if you need it?"
Hypothetically speaking! Let say you are doing Temple of the spider, and you get to the end boss and kill her, then the boss drops a Warlock Armor, those gears go for a decent amount in the AH, and there is a warlock in the party who already has the gear the boss dropped, he can need on the item if he wants to, but he doesnt need the item to upgrade his gear because he already has it, do you guys honestly think he is going to Greed, or pass on that item that is really expensive, because he doesnt need it to wear?
He is going to lie that he needs the gear, and going to end up selling it on the AH, and would you called that fair to everyone else in the party?
Do you guys really think he is going to greed on a 500k item because he doesnt need the gear itself? even if he ends up Greeding or passing the item he doesnt need, that means anyone in the party who wins the lootis definitly going to end up selling it, because none of the players in the party can use the item except the Warlock.
Why would he risk loosing 500k, and risk loosing the loot to someone else, when he doesnt need to, with the greed system they have to Greed. (i have seen players durings runs that need on every blue items as long as it is of their class, so if they dont like risking their blue blue gears why would they risk their expensive epic?)
So this is my conclusion, the need system will never work fairly for anyone, because if a boss drops a loot that my class can use, even if i dont need it, as long as it expensive i will need on it, and i believe everyone would do the same with the need system, everyone would go around needing on every item they can.
The vets know the AD grind is real. If you read all these threads, that is the common theme. Its not really an equality issue, its the need for AD to buy refining items and other random stuff.
But again, COMMUNICATE the loot rules at start of dungeon and follow those rules.
Lol the responeses im reading that are against the Greed system makes me sad
"Need if, if you need it?"
Hypothetically speaking! Let say you are doing Temple of the spider, and you get to the end boss and kill her, then the boss drops a Warlock Armor, those gears go for a decent amount in the AH, and there is a warlock in the party who already has the gear the boss dropped, he can need on the item if he wants to, but he doesnt need the item to upgrade his gear because he already has it, do you guys honestly think he is going to Greed, or pass on that item that is really expensive, because he doesnt need it to wear?
He is going to lie that he needs the gear, and going to end up selling it on the AH, and would you called that fair to everyone else in the party?
Do you guys really think he is going to greed on a 500k item because he doesnt need the gear itself? even if he ends up Greeding or passing the item he doesnt need, that means anyone in the party who wins the lootis definitly going to end up selling it, because none of the players in the party can use the item except the Warlock.
Why would he risk loosing 500k, and risk loosing the loot to someone else, when he doesnt need to, with the greed system they have to Greed. (i have seen players durings runs that need on every blue items as long as it is of their class, so if they dont like risking their blue blue gears why would they risk their expensive epic?)
So this is my conclusion, the need system will never work fairly for anyone, because if a boss drops a loot that my class can use, even if i dont need it, as long as it expensive i will need on it, and i believe everyone would do the same with the need system, everyone would go around needing on every item they can.
Yes, exactly. Vetran players understand that most players, espeically new players, are not trustworthy on this system. We would love for this to be different, but it simply is not.
Secondly - I would reccomend that if you get in a group you don't leave the opening camp until the loot rules are absolutely clear. I always double check.
No veteran player is going to say "need if you need it." We've all been screwed by this mentality before. It's either greed, split, or don't run at all.
No veteran player is going to say "need if you need it." We've all been screwed by this mentality before. It's either greed, split, or don't run at all.
How do you know youve been screwed? Do you keep a list of each player and the drops in each dungeon you run, then constantly check the AH to see if theyre selling it instead of using it? That seems excessive.
They should just get rid of the weighted class drops, then everyone can need on first roll and we dont have to have two separate rolls.
Lol the responeses im reading that are against the Greed system makes me sad
"Need if, if you need it?"
Hypothetically speaking! Let say you are doing Temple of the spider, and you get to the end boss and kill her, then the boss drops a Warlock Armor, those gears go for a decent amount in the AH, and there is a warlock in the party who already has the gear the boss dropped, he can need on the item if he wants to, but he doesnt need the item to upgrade his gear because he already has it, do you guys honestly think he is going to Greed, or pass on that item that is really expensive, because he doesnt need it to wear?
He is going to lie that he needs the gear, and going to end up selling it on the AH, and would you called that fair to everyone else in the party?
Do you guys really think he is going to greed on a 500k item because he doesn't need the gear itself? even if he ends up Greeding or passing the item he doesnt need, that means anyone in the party who wins the lootis definitly going to end up selling it, because none of the players in the party can use the item except the Warlock.
Why would he risk loosing 500k, and risk loosing the loot to someone else, when he doesnt need to, with the greed system they have to Greed. (i have seen players durings runs that need on every blue items as long as it is of their class, so if they dont like risking their blue blue gears why would they risk their expensive epic?)
So this is my conclusion, the need system will never work fairly for anyone, because if a boss drops a loot that my class can use, even if i don't need it, as long as it expensive i will need on it, and i believe everyone would do the same with the need system, everyone would go around needing on every item they can.
I guess that would depend on the type of group that we are talking about, as I said earlier their are 2 different groups/dynamics we are talking about here and they are getting spliced together.
Is this a group of friends/guildies or is this an actual P.U.G./strangers?
If it is a group of friends/guildies then hopefully you'll be talking to one another and come to a reasonable loot solution, before you start or during.
If it is a P.U.G. of random people then I would have to say, the etiquette should be in those situations, that I have come to understand from running random groups/PUGS Green items are up for grabs, which as of late seems to be Bad Form to even think about picking these up as it slows the run down, Blue items are need, and any purples are to be greed rolls regardless.
This seems to be getting thrown out with the common sense in lue of the " Great A.D. Grind "
Yes, exactly. Vetran players understand that most players, espeically new players, are not trustworthy on this system. We would love for this to be different, but it simply is not.
Secondly - I would reccomend that if you get in a group you don't leave the opening camp until the loot rules are absolutely clear. I always double check.
No veteran player is going to say "need if you need it." We've all been screwed by this mentality before. It's either greed, split, or don't run at all.
We are the bad guys here for wanting to make things better for everyone.
We are not against the "Needing system", it just that the system would lead to alot of abuses, players will be needing on items even when they dont need it, claiming that they do need it, and then we will start seeing alot of complains about players needing items and then selling them for AD.
In my opinion, the most fair and ninja-proof looting rule is "everybody need everything they can". Everybody need or everybody greed - the chance that this particular player gets the loot is just the same, and there is no chance that someone will need while somebody else greed. There is the same chance you'll get the X class drop as the Y class drop, no point adding another layer of randomness by greeding all.
Of course, it is most important that whatever rules you choose, it is made clear for all team members from the beginning of the run.
How do you know youve been screwed? Do you keep a list of each player and the drops in each dungeon you run, then constantly check the AH to see if theyre selling it instead of using it? That seems excessive.
How do i know i have been screwed?
I have been screwed 6 times before in this manner, and they were all CN runs.
First time it happened, it was a TR loot that dropped, we were all suppose to greed, but the TR needed and claimed he needed the item to upgrade, so we decided to not kick him and let him have the weapon, and then we all broke party.
About 4 minutes later, one of the players we did the run with send me an email ingame, and told me to check the AH, and that the TR who said he was going to use the item was selling it, see how he screws us up there?
After that it has happens 5 more times, and whenever i check the AH they are always selling the loot, and im pretty sure this has happpened to alot of other players aswell.
So yeah that is how i know i have been screwed, i do excatly what you mentioned to find out.
I guess that would depend on the type of group that we are talking about, as I said earlier their are 2 different groups/dynamics we are talking about here and they are getting spliced together.
Is this a group of friends/guildies or is this an actual P.U.G./strangers?
If it is a group of friends/guildies then hopefully you'll be talking to one another and come to a reasonable loot solution, before you start or during.
If it is a P.U.G. of random people then I would have to say, the etiquette should be in those situations, that I have come to understand from running random groups/PUGS Green items are up for grabs, which as of late seems to be Bad Form to even think about picking these up as it slows the run down, Blue items are need, and any purples are to be greed rolls regardless.
This seems to be getting thrown out with the common sense in lue of the " Great A.D. Grind "
Please refrain from responding to my replies, if you not going to say anything logical.
It doesnt matter what kind of group you are running with, always ask for the loot rules in the begining, (Infact you can ask as you play)
It not that hard, whenever you join any run be it Guidlies/friends, or just random queuing with pugs, you should always ask in the begining what are the loots rules, ask them need or greed? and when they tell you which one they are doing, if you dont agree with the rules kindly leave the party, and no one has anything to loose.
I dont kick someone for needing during a run, i only vote to kick someone when they need on a run they agreed to Greed on.
Also i have been in some parties where someone asked in the begining of the run what the loots rules are, and nobody answers, and when we get to the first boss, and someone needs on an item they try to kick that player, i always vote no and say we cant kick them, because he asked what the loots rules are and nobody asnwers, so therefore it not their fault for needing.
if it was a greed run then someone should have said greed, dont keep quiet and when someone needs you want to kick them for needing.
Of course, should you display the attitude you describe in our guild, you'll be put on the guild-wide ignore list before you get kicked. We'll never turn down someone who needs something, but don't think you can take advantage of us just to make some AD.
This is exactly what im trying to say, alot of players would take advantage of the system just to make some AD, and you and i wouldnt be very happy about that.
Sure a few close friends, and some members in a tigh knit guild wouldnt think about pulling <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> moves like that, but just because a few members in your guild are self respecting personels, doesnt mean everyone else is.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
This is exactly what im trying to say, alot of players would take advantage of the system just to make some AD, and you and i wouldnt be very happy about that.
Sure a few close friends, and some members in a tigh knit guild wouldnt think about pulling <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> moves like that, but just because a few members in your guild are self respecting personels, doesnt mean everyone else is.
Absolutely, agreed.
Also been screwed often, or people have attempted to screw me too. We have to protect ourselves.
Bear in mind that when I've said my guild does this, we're *really* small. I actually do know what gear people already have. And we don't run dungeons endlessly to get drops to sell.
Sure, I wouldn't trust random people the same way. I also don't generally go into a dungeon with random people in the first place.
The underlying issue is that if someone 'Needs' an item there is nothing stopping them selling it on the AH rather than using it, and indeed many 'ninja's work this way.
If 'Need' was changed to make any items won that way un-sellable on the AH and un-salvageable that would be a good start.
This^^
I would have no issue with people rolling need on class-specific gear if it was BOP, unsellable, unsalvageable.
I find it amusing that people are running around calling people who say "Need it if you need it" newbies and have never played this game before. I find it amusing because I've been here since closed Beta and have played multiple level 60s. Also, I've been playing MMOs since they first came out. So really... Who's the "newb" now?
Seriously though. If the group decides they want to do Greed all purples... That's entirely up to the person who formed the group to begin with. Like I said earlier, MY groups are Need it if you need it. If I join someone elses group and they want it Greed on all purple items, then I'm fine with that as well. If you que via the system and get thrown in with a bunch of random people, then anything is fair game really unless everyone stops, and agrees to rules. If you disagree with the rules, then you can always drop group and re-que. I DO find it funny that I've had people join my groups and argue with me about loot rolls after I made it abundantly clear at the onset that it's Need it if you need it... AFTER the 500k+ AD item drops and someone else gets it. I wonder if they would have squawked as loudly if it had been an item they wanted and they got to Need it? Probably not is my guess. I've also had people threaten me that they'd drop group if I didn't make everyone in my groups Greed on all purple items... Again, AFTER I stated my loot rules at the onset. I even had at least one cleric do that to me. My response to those folks were all the same, I calmly explained that I had already explained the loot rules at the beginning and that I dislike being threatened by anyone. Then I booted them from the group. It's funny in a way because I've yet to have a single one of my T2 runs fail. With or without those folks and that includes those clerics.
That is because like me, you are old school. We learned our methods and our courtesy from playing MMOs that promoted true need over greed. The new generation cares about themselves only, and cannot see past that. Honestly I think this whole arguement is ridiculous. Not to mention there is no gaurantee that a pug group will even beat the last boss, or not kick you b4 you can even loot the chest (which I have read happens quite a bit). But that being said, I hope I find myself in your groups in game, it sounds like a cool group to run with...
That is because like me, you are old school. We learned our methods and our courtesy from playing MMOs that promoted true need over greed. The new generation cares about themselves only, and cannot see past that. Honestly I think this whole arguement is ridiculous. Not to mention there is no gaurantee that a pug group will even beat the last boss, or not kick you b4 you can even loot the chest (which I have read happens quite a bit). But that being said, I hope I find myself in your groups in game, it sounds like a cool group to run with...
Welcome to the new world. Glad you guys came out of your caves.
Anyways, I think it would be difficult to change an entire generation's culture don't you think? I prefer to just request changing the need/greed system of a game rather than try and start a cultural revolution. Just my 2 cents.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited October 2014
The problem also is need if you need it? what does NEED mean?
If it's your first character and your undergeared, sure, i can understand that (to an extent), but you would still be smarter selling it on the AH because AD IS HARDER TO COME BY THAN GEAR.
What if it's your 3rd alt, who already has gems and enchants and you are just collecting the set? Is that need?
If you are pug group, how do you know if that is the case?
How do you trust people to be honest with you? It's my experince that people will gladly treat others like <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> to get even 10 or 20k AD.
On top of that, I "need" things too - namely in the way of tons of AD and tons of RP for my upgrades. Now, how do we know that your upgrade is more valuable than mine? Just because it's the item in the dungeon, does that mean that need is more urgent? does a need on a main count more for a need on an alt?
See, this is a headache i really don't want to deal with.
Greed all = win the roll, grats bro! let's go again!
Need if you need = need on item, don't equip, sell on AH 5 minutes later. Teammates get used for personal profit.
Your expectations of the ethics of a PUG are about the same as the ethics of a pickpocketer in the slums of Mumbai, IMO.
(Granted the people who post on this thread probably aren't like this personally, but many people like this do exist.)
This is like saying someone choosing something different than you exploiting?
No, it's like saying that an abusive exploit of the game code to your own advantage at the expense of your own party members is an abusive exploit.
There is nothing wrong with using LFG for a GRRRREEEEEEEEDDDDDD RUUUNNNNNNNN!!!!! as that is what everyone wants.
But people in Legit Channel pretending that GRRRREEEEEEEDDDDDDD!!!!! is the Channel Rule, when it is not, or trying to force it on PUGs AFTER you have started when you queue up is just wrong.
No, it's like saying that an abusive exploit of the game code to your own advantage at the expense of your own party members is an abusive exploit.
There is nothing wrong with using LFG for a GRRRREEEEEEEEDDDDDD RUUUNNNNNNNN!!!!! as that is what everyone wants.
But people in Legit Channel pretending that GRRRREEEEEEEDDDDDDD!!!!! is the Channel Rule, when it is not, or trying to force it on PUGs AFTER you have started when you queue up is just wrong.
That's all I'm saying.
I am one of the 'people in Legit Channel' and Greed is our channel rule and it is the right one and if someone do not like it he/she is free to leave. Greed in this game means nothing else than 'EQUAL CHANCE FOR EVERYBODY' so this is why we think that this is the best rule. Legit is a channel that stands for equality and against exploits or cheating, no offending, no insults, etc.
I am one of the 'people in Legit Channel' and Greed is our channel rule and it is the right one and if someone do not like it he/she is free to leave. Greed in this game means nothing else than 'EQUAL CHANCE FOR EVERYBODY' so this is why we think that this is the best rule. Legit is a channel that stands for equality and against exploits or cheating, no offending, no insults, etc.
We really need to petition a name change from "greed" to "EQUAL CHANCE FOR EVERYBODY".
They essentially mean the same thing in this instance. Everyone gets 20% chance at the final loot.
And yes, the all-caps format is part of it just to drill it in other people's brains that greed = equal 20% chance of getting the loot.
Yes, exactly. Vetran players understand that most players, espeically new players, are not trustworthy on this system. We would love for this to be different, but it simply is not.
Secondly - I would reccomend that if you get in a group you don't leave the opening camp until the loot rules are absolutely clear. I always double check.
No veteran player is going to say "need if you need it." We've all been screwed by this mentality before. It's either greed, split, or don't run at all.
Veteran player here and I DO say exactly that in any group I form.
"If you're going to ride my HAMSTER... At least pull my hair" Taking the trash out, one badguy at a time. "Satisfaction guaranteed or twice your trash back."
Please refrain from responding to my replies, if you not going to say anything logical.
It doesnt matter what kind of group you are running with, always ask for the loot rules in the begining, (Infact you can ask as you play)
It not that hard, whenever you join any run be it Guidlies/friends, or just random queuing with pugs, you should always ask in the begining what are the loots rules, ask them need or greed? and when they tell you which one they are doing, if you dont agree with the rules kindly leave the party, and no one has anything to loose.
I dont kick someone for needing during a run, i only vote to kick someone when they need on a run they agreed to Greed on.
Also i have been in some parties where someone asked in the begining of the run what the loots rules are, and nobody answers, and when we get to the first boss, and someone needs on an item they try to kick that player, i always vote no and say we cant kick them, because he asked what the loots rules are and nobody asnwers, so therefore it not their fault for needing.
if it was a greed run then someone should have said greed, dont keep quiet and when someone needs you want to kick them for needing.
Totally agree with this. Loot rules are determined by the leader of the group/person who formed the group, or if it's a system PUG, then it's majority rules. If no rules are determined ahead of time, then there's no need to kick someone just because they Needed something.
"If you're going to ride my HAMSTER... At least pull my hair" Taking the trash out, one badguy at a time. "Satisfaction guaranteed or twice your trash back."
The problem also is need if you need it? what does NEED mean?
If it's your first character and your undergeared, sure, i can understand that (to an extent), but you would still be smarter selling it on the AH because AD IS HARDER TO COME BY THAN GEAR.
What if it's your 3rd alt, who already has gems and enchants and you are just collecting the set? Is that need?
If you are pug group, how do you know if that is the case?
How do you trust people to be honest with you? It's my experince that people will gladly treat others like <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> to get even 10 or 20k AD.
On top of that, I "need" things too - namely in the way of tons of AD and tons of RP for my upgrades. Now, how do we know that your upgrade is more valuable than mine? Just because it's the item in the dungeon, does that mean that need is more urgent? does a need on a main count more for a need on an alt?
See, this is a headache i really don't want to deal with.
Greed all = win the roll, grats bro! let's go again!
Need if you need = need on item, don't equip, sell on AH 5 minutes later. Teammates get used for personal profit.
Your expectations of the ethics of a PUG are about the same as the ethics of a pickpocketer in the slums of Mumbai, IMO.
(Granted the people who post on this thread probably aren't like this personally, but many people like this do exist.)
All i think we want is fairness.
Mmm... Call me old school then. I'm very much into the "Golden Rule". Do unto others... Don't get me wrong. I'm not some complete sap/sucker. If I give trust and my face gets rubbed into it, I'm not going to leave myself open to that same individual again. On the topic of having to worry about trusting someone you don't know... Why worry about it? How do you know that your guildie/friend isn't going to all of a sudden decide to pull one over on you and Need something he obviously doesn't need? While you're at it, why not worry about if a car is going to hit you the next time you step out onto the street. Don't forget worrying about Ebola, anthrax, the bubonic plague, and Armageddon while you're there in paranoid land.
Life is too short to spend it worrying about every little thing out there. Also, it's a game. Relax, play it, enjoy it. Don't let jerks or the potential for jerks spoil it for you. Just /ignore people who have "wronged" you and you'll never have to bother with them in-game ever again. So what if they "ninjaed" that 1 million AD item from your group. Just /ignore them so if you ever run into them again, you'll know they're on there for a "good" reason and can avoid them. I've actually done that with PUGs I've gotten into before. When I get into a group, I always check to see if anyone is on my /ignore list. If there is one or more, I try to think if I can remember them. Either way though (if I remember or not), I politely excuse myself from the group with an explanation why. I was in a group once where the cleric was on my /ignore list. I remembered that person as a hijacker and explained why I was leaving to the rest of the group, then dropped group. A short while later, I joined that exact same group again after they had booted the cleric. Karma? /shrug You decide.
"If you're going to ride my HAMSTER... At least pull my hair" Taking the trash out, one badguy at a time. "Satisfaction guaranteed or twice your trash back."
I am one of the 'people in Legit Channel' and Greed is our channel rule and it is the right one and if someone do not like it he/she is free to leave.
Well, Bioshrike, the guy who created that channel, says that it is NOT the rule. There is no formal channel rule at all. That is up to the party members to agree upon. So you are either completely deluded or a plain, bare-faced liar. I can't think of any alternative interpretation.
Can you?
I never do GRRREEEEEEEDDDDDDD RRRUUUUNNNNNNNSSSSS!!!!!!! because it is a perversion and exploit of the intent and design of the game code and I do not want to be associated with greedy, selfish, childish and immature kids who would not understand a co-operative, team game like AD&D if it bit them on the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
I get my best gear from PvP and the AH. If your gear is good enough for PvP, it's more than enough for PvE; Tenacity notwithstanding.
So I can go on runs with newer players and PASS on everything as I certainly don't need any Greens - they are not worth the AD cost of a Greater Scroll of ID. After that, it is NEED if you can, GREED if you cannot NEED, PASS if you don't care either way.
I am one of the 'people in Legit Channel' and Greed is our channel rule and it is the right one and if someone do not like it he/she is free to leave. Greed in this game means nothing else than 'EQUAL CHANCE FOR EVERYBODY' so this is why we think that this is the best rule. Legit is a channel that stands for equality and against exploits or cheating, no offending, no insults, etc.
You speak like you're speaking for everyone out there on that channel. Who died and made you god for them? :eek: Let the group leader/person who formed the group, decide what the loot rules are. If there is none, let the majority decide. Very simple.
"If you're going to ride my HAMSTER... At least pull my hair" Taking the trash out, one badguy at a time. "Satisfaction guaranteed or twice your trash back."
You speak like you're speaking for everyone out there on that channel. Who died and made you god for them? :eek: Let the group leader/person who formed the group, decide what the loot rules are. If there is none, let the majority decide. Very simple.
I never said I was the leader/person who formed the channel. I am just an ordinary member. If you want to join Legit Channel you must accept their rules or leave. It's just a free choice. As I am against insulting, offending, cheating, etc., I joined this channel.
I never said I was the leader/person who formed the channel. I am just an ordinary member. If you want to join Legit Channel you must accept their rules or leave.
But the leader/person who formed the channel says it is NOT the rules. You and other members made that up. It's also riddled with trolls, which is why I left.
Comments
I'm sorry, what planet are you on? This is like saying someone choosing something different than you exploiting? I'm so confused here.
And maybe you run with idiots who don't appreciate DC, but my DC can double team DPS and keep them alive, who wouldn't want that? A good DC is amazing and valuable and it's only the idiots that don't understand that.
And when they blame the DC, remember. You can't heal stupid.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
+1 /10 char
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
"Need if, if you need it?"
Hypothetically speaking! Let say you are doing Temple of the spider, and you get to the end boss and kill her, then the boss drops a Warlock Armor, those gears go for a decent amount in the AH, and there is a warlock in the party who already has the gear the boss dropped, he can need on the item if he wants to, but he doesnt need the item to upgrade his gear because he already has it, do you guys honestly think he is going to Greed, or pass on that item that is really expensive, because he doesnt need it to wear?
He is going to lie that he needs the gear, and going to end up selling it on the AH, and would you called that fair to everyone else in the party?
Do you guys really think he is going to greed on a 500k item because he doesnt need the gear itself? even if he ends up Greeding or passing the item he doesnt need, that means anyone in the party who wins the lootis definitly going to end up selling it, because none of the players in the party can use the item except the Warlock.
Why would he risk loosing 500k, and risk loosing the loot to someone else, when he doesnt need to, with the greed system they have to Greed. (i have seen players durings runs that need on every blue items as long as it is of their class, so if they dont like risking their blue blue gears why would they risk their expensive epic?)
So this is my conclusion, the need system will never work fairly for anyone, because if a boss drops a loot that my class can use, even if i dont need it, as long as it expensive i will need on it, and i believe everyone would do the same with the need system, everyone would go around needing on every item they can.
The vets know the AD grind is real. If you read all these threads, that is the common theme. Its not really an equality issue, its the need for AD to buy refining items and other random stuff.
But again, COMMUNICATE the loot rules at start of dungeon and follow those rules.
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
Yes, exactly. Vetran players understand that most players, espeically new players, are not trustworthy on this system. We would love for this to be different, but it simply is not.
Secondly - I would reccomend that if you get in a group you don't leave the opening camp until the loot rules are absolutely clear. I always double check.
No veteran player is going to say "need if you need it." We've all been screwed by this mentality before. It's either greed, split, or don't run at all.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
How do you know youve been screwed? Do you keep a list of each player and the drops in each dungeon you run, then constantly check the AH to see if theyre selling it instead of using it? That seems excessive.
They should just get rid of the weighted class drops, then everyone can need on first roll and we dont have to have two separate rolls.
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
I guess that would depend on the type of group that we are talking about, as I said earlier their are 2 different groups/dynamics we are talking about here and they are getting spliced together.
Is this a group of friends/guildies or is this an actual P.U.G./strangers?
If it is a group of friends/guildies then hopefully you'll be talking to one another and come to a reasonable loot solution, before you start or during.
If it is a P.U.G. of random people then I would have to say, the etiquette should be in those situations, that I have come to understand from running random groups/PUGS Green items are up for grabs, which as of late seems to be Bad Form to even think about picking these up as it slows the run down, Blue items are need, and any purples are to be greed rolls regardless.
This seems to be getting thrown out with the common sense in lue of the " Great A.D. Grind "
" May The Wind be Always At Your Back "
We are the bad guys here for wanting to make things better for everyone.
We are not against the "Needing system", it just that the system would lead to alot of abuses, players will be needing on items even when they dont need it, claiming that they do need it, and then we will start seeing alot of complains about players needing items and then selling them for AD.
Of course, it is most important that whatever rules you choose, it is made clear for all team members from the beginning of the run.
How do i know i have been screwed?
I have been screwed 6 times before in this manner, and they were all CN runs.
First time it happened, it was a TR loot that dropped, we were all suppose to greed, but the TR needed and claimed he needed the item to upgrade, so we decided to not kick him and let him have the weapon, and then we all broke party.
About 4 minutes later, one of the players we did the run with send me an email ingame, and told me to check the AH, and that the TR who said he was going to use the item was selling it, see how he screws us up there?
After that it has happens 5 more times, and whenever i check the AH they are always selling the loot, and im pretty sure this has happpened to alot of other players aswell.
So yeah that is how i know i have been screwed, i do excatly what you mentioned to find out.
Please refrain from responding to my replies, if you not going to say anything logical.
It doesnt matter what kind of group you are running with, always ask for the loot rules in the begining, (Infact you can ask as you play)
It not that hard, whenever you join any run be it Guidlies/friends, or just random queuing with pugs, you should always ask in the begining what are the loots rules, ask them need or greed? and when they tell you which one they are doing, if you dont agree with the rules kindly leave the party, and no one has anything to loose.
I dont kick someone for needing during a run, i only vote to kick someone when they need on a run they agreed to Greed on.
Also i have been in some parties where someone asked in the begining of the run what the loots rules are, and nobody answers, and when we get to the first boss, and someone needs on an item they try to kick that player, i always vote no and say we cant kick them, because he asked what the loots rules are and nobody asnwers, so therefore it not their fault for needing.
if it was a greed run then someone should have said greed, dont keep quiet and when someone needs you want to kick them for needing.
This is exactly what im trying to say, alot of players would take advantage of the system just to make some AD, and you and i wouldnt be very happy about that.
Sure a few close friends, and some members in a tigh knit guild wouldnt think about pulling <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> moves like that, but just because a few members in your guild are self respecting personels, doesnt mean everyone else is.
Absolutely, agreed.
Also been screwed often, or people have attempted to screw me too. We have to protect ourselves.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Bear in mind that when I've said my guild does this, we're *really* small. I actually do know what gear people already have. And we don't run dungeons endlessly to get drops to sell.
Sure, I wouldn't trust random people the same way. I also don't generally go into a dungeon with random people in the first place.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
This^^
I would have no issue with people rolling need on class-specific gear if it was BOP, unsellable, unsalvageable.
That is because like me, you are old school. We learned our methods and our courtesy from playing MMOs that promoted true need over greed. The new generation cares about themselves only, and cannot see past that. Honestly I think this whole arguement is ridiculous. Not to mention there is no gaurantee that a pug group will even beat the last boss, or not kick you b4 you can even loot the chest (which I have read happens quite a bit). But that being said, I hope I find myself in your groups in game, it sounds like a cool group to run with...
Welcome to the new world. Glad you guys came out of your caves.
Anyways, I think it would be difficult to change an entire generation's culture don't you think? I prefer to just request changing the need/greed system of a game rather than try and start a cultural revolution. Just my 2 cents.
If it's your first character and your undergeared, sure, i can understand that (to an extent), but you would still be smarter selling it on the AH because AD IS HARDER TO COME BY THAN GEAR.
What if it's your 3rd alt, who already has gems and enchants and you are just collecting the set? Is that need?
If you are pug group, how do you know if that is the case?
How do you trust people to be honest with you? It's my experince that people will gladly treat others like <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> to get even 10 or 20k AD.
On top of that, I "need" things too - namely in the way of tons of AD and tons of RP for my upgrades. Now, how do we know that your upgrade is more valuable than mine? Just because it's the item in the dungeon, does that mean that need is more urgent? does a need on a main count more for a need on an alt?
See, this is a headache i really don't want to deal with.
Greed all = win the roll, grats bro! let's go again!
Need if you need = need on item, don't equip, sell on AH 5 minutes later. Teammates get used for personal profit.
Your expectations of the ethics of a PUG are about the same as the ethics of a pickpocketer in the slums of Mumbai, IMO.
(Granted the people who post on this thread probably aren't like this personally, but many people like this do exist.)
All i think we want is fairness.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
No, it's like saying that an abusive exploit of the game code to your own advantage at the expense of your own party members is an abusive exploit.
There is nothing wrong with using LFG for a GRRRREEEEEEEEDDDDDD RUUUNNNNNNNN!!!!! as that is what everyone wants.
But people in Legit Channel pretending that GRRRREEEEEEEDDDDDDD!!!!! is the Channel Rule, when it is not, or trying to force it on PUGs AFTER you have started when you queue up is just wrong.
That's all I'm saying.
I am one of the 'people in Legit Channel' and Greed is our channel rule and it is the right one and if someone do not like it he/she is free to leave. Greed in this game means nothing else than 'EQUAL CHANCE FOR EVERYBODY' so this is why we think that this is the best rule. Legit is a channel that stands for equality and against exploits or cheating, no offending, no insults, etc.
We really need to petition a name change from "greed" to "EQUAL CHANCE FOR EVERYBODY".
They essentially mean the same thing in this instance. Everyone gets 20% chance at the final loot.
And yes, the all-caps format is part of it just to drill it in other people's brains that greed = equal 20% chance of getting the loot.
Veteran player here and I DO say exactly that in any group I form.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"If you're going to ride my HAMSTER... At least pull my hair"
Taking the trash out, one badguy at a time.
"Satisfaction guaranteed or twice your trash back."
Totally agree with this. Loot rules are determined by the leader of the group/person who formed the group, or if it's a system PUG, then it's majority rules. If no rules are determined ahead of time, then there's no need to kick someone just because they Needed something.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"If you're going to ride my HAMSTER... At least pull my hair"
Taking the trash out, one badguy at a time.
"Satisfaction guaranteed or twice your trash back."
Mmm... Call me old school then. I'm very much into the "Golden Rule". Do unto others... Don't get me wrong. I'm not some complete sap/sucker. If I give trust and my face gets rubbed into it, I'm not going to leave myself open to that same individual again. On the topic of having to worry about trusting someone you don't know... Why worry about it? How do you know that your guildie/friend isn't going to all of a sudden decide to pull one over on you and Need something he obviously doesn't need? While you're at it, why not worry about if a car is going to hit you the next time you step out onto the street. Don't forget worrying about Ebola, anthrax, the bubonic plague, and Armageddon while you're there in paranoid land.
Life is too short to spend it worrying about every little thing out there. Also, it's a game. Relax, play it, enjoy it. Don't let jerks or the potential for jerks spoil it for you. Just /ignore people who have "wronged" you and you'll never have to bother with them in-game ever again. So what if they "ninjaed" that 1 million AD item from your group. Just /ignore them so if you ever run into them again, you'll know they're on there for a "good" reason and can avoid them. I've actually done that with PUGs I've gotten into before. When I get into a group, I always check to see if anyone is on my /ignore list. If there is one or more, I try to think if I can remember them. Either way though (if I remember or not), I politely excuse myself from the group with an explanation why. I was in a group once where the cleric was on my /ignore list. I remembered that person as a hijacker and explained why I was leaving to the rest of the group, then dropped group. A short while later, I joined that exact same group again after they had booted the cleric. Karma? /shrug You decide.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"If you're going to ride my HAMSTER... At least pull my hair"
Taking the trash out, one badguy at a time.
"Satisfaction guaranteed or twice your trash back."
Well, Bioshrike, the guy who created that channel, says that it is NOT the rule. There is no formal channel rule at all. That is up to the party members to agree upon. So you are either completely deluded or a plain, bare-faced liar. I can't think of any alternative interpretation.
Can you?
I never do GRRREEEEEEEDDDDDDD RRRUUUUNNNNNNNSSSSS!!!!!!! because it is a perversion and exploit of the intent and design of the game code and I do not want to be associated with greedy, selfish, childish and immature kids who would not understand a co-operative, team game like AD&D if it bit them on the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
I get my best gear from PvP and the AH. If your gear is good enough for PvP, it's more than enough for PvE; Tenacity notwithstanding.
So I can go on runs with newer players and PASS on everything as I certainly don't need any Greens - they are not worth the AD cost of a Greater Scroll of ID. After that, it is NEED if you can, GREED if you cannot NEED, PASS if you don't care either way.
You speak like you're speaking for everyone out there on that channel. Who died and made you god for them? :eek: Let the group leader/person who formed the group, decide what the loot rules are. If there is none, let the majority decide. Very simple.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"If you're going to ride my HAMSTER... At least pull my hair"
Taking the trash out, one badguy at a time.
"Satisfaction guaranteed or twice your trash back."
I never said I was the leader/person who formed the channel. I am just an ordinary member. If you want to join Legit Channel you must accept their rules or leave. It's just a free choice. As I am against insulting, offending, cheating, etc., I joined this channel.
But the leader/person who formed the channel says it is NOT the rules. You and other members made that up. It's also riddled with trolls, which is why I left.