Greed is greed. You can say that less popular classes have better chance for the loot in "need run" case, but then, they get less profit on AH from it.
Needing all is the way to save everybody a lot of drama, both "oops, I wanted to greed, sorry my finger slipped" and "kick him out, he needed even if we totally didn't say this is a greed run!". And ofc "oh my , that piece I've tried to get 30 runs already just dropped! The chest may contain it, or a t1 ring, what should I do?"
If everybody need everything, it is just as fair (or even more, if ppl are trying to gear themselves there) as greeding all. The only problem is to make rules clear and stick to them.
You guys should keep in mind that this is, infact, an MMO and NOT a CRPG. You are not the center of the universe in any MMO and you should expect all "random people" you meet to be the same. Everybody looks out for themselves until they find some guild or group to belong to. Why should any of the random people in your pug dungeon run care if you need an item? The fact of the matter is, they don't and have no reason or incentive to do so. Pressing need in a greed run is obviously grounds for kick, but how can you say they aren't within their rights to do so? Why? because it's YOU who was kicked, and not someone else?
You people should get off your moral high-ground because it's far less solid than you seem to believe... If this is your first MMO, you need to get used to the "greed" attitude, because it is MASSIVELY PERVASIVE in ANY MMO, and for good reason.
The world won't change for you, either you change for it, or accept it as it is...
Greed is greed. You can say that less popular classes have better chance for the loot in "need run" case, but then, they get less profit on AH from it.
Needing all is the way to save everybody a lot of drama, both "oops, I wanted to greed, sorry my finger slipped" and "kick him out, he needed even if we totally didn't say this is a greed run!". And ofc "oh my , that piece I've tried to get 30 runs already just dropped! The chest may contain it, or a t1 ring, what should I do?"
If everybody need everything, it is just as fair (or even more, if ppl are trying to gear themselves there) as greeding all. The only problem is to make rules clear and stick to them.
Fair is relative to the player. Some players go into dungeons because they want to farm. Some players go into dungeons because they want to get gear. I wouldn't call greed runs as greed and need runs as something else. They both signify wanting something out of dungeons.
It all depends on which run the party decides on, thats the rule.
Greed is greed. You can say that less popular classes have better chance for the loot in "need run" case, but then, they get less profit on AH from it.
Needing all is the way to save everybody a lot of drama, both "oops, I wanted to greed, sorry my finger slipped" and "kick him out, he needed even if we totally didn't say this is a greed run!". And ofc "oh my , that piece I've tried to get 30 runs already just dropped! The chest may contain it, or a t1 ring, what should I do?"
If everybody need everything, it is just as fair (or even more, if ppl are trying to gear themselves there) as greeding all. The only problem is to make rules clear and stick to them.
U will realise the reason ppl run greed in time as i did and there is many way to get gear not just by farming specifically for it..i got my gear by farming on greed regardless the pain of seeing the item i want got rolled by other player..i still got other stuff and sell them to get what i want..its just sooner or later thing
I just did Gauntlgrym and ran through Fardelver a few times and got a Battlefield Scavenger's Bracers, which was no good to me anyway. But there was no TR in the party, so i got the random roll.
Apart from the fact that everyone was trying to run to the end and getting killed like idiots en route, in the last run a Scourge Warlock item dropped, so I hit Greed as I was playing a DC. Then an illiterate buffoon stared a vote to kick the SW, the reason being:
"prob need"
?
"PROB NEED!"?
So some people are kicking players at the end, just IN CASE they hit NEED for something for their own class?
I'm sorry, but these a-holes are nothing but childish overly self-entitled, c***s (I had to censor that myself! WTF?) and should be perma-banned from all PWE games.
I voted NO, of course, and posted "No one said this was a Greeeeeeeeeeeed run, so grow up".
I don't even know why they run to the end anyway - if you kill everything en route it does not take that much longer, everything seems to follow us anyway and if you kill things they drop Rank 4 enchants,
There is no way in the Universe to justify this kind of behaviour, and I wish people could be reported and have their accounts deleted for doing it.
At the very least, we should only ever be able to kick people who are disconnected. So get your finger out, Cryptic, and put an end to this unpleasantness.
At the very least, we should only ever be able to kick people who are disconnected. So get your finger out, Cryptic, and put an end to this unpleasantness.
I think there is a time and a place for Greed Runs. When there is a new lvl 60, like me, who gets kicked for needing on an item that was an upgrade, because some 20k gs GWF decided he wants AD, that is too far. And the chest excuse isn't enough because there are only two times a day that the Dungeon Delves is up, and a dungeon takes a good 30 minutes to an hour to run. A new lvl 60 doesn't have the money for the key to the DD chest at the end, so he can only get it when the DD event is going. The greed run mentality in a PUG is going to only hurt Neverwinter in the long run. It is going to drive away new players to the point that the population grows stagnant and there aren't any new players, just players who are starting to get bored and leaving. This mentality of Greed Runs when in a PUG with new players will kill this game.
There is a time and a place. Don't let your want for "equal chance" discourage a new player from playing this game. It will only hurt it in the long run.
I just did Gauntlgrym and ran through Fardelver a few times and got a Battlefield Scavenger's Bracers, which was no good to me anyway. But there was no TR in the party, so i got the random roll.
Apart from the fact that everyone was trying to run to the end and getting killed like idiots en route, in the last run a Scourge Warlock item dropped, so I hit Greed as I was playing a DC. Then an illiterate buffoon stared a vote to kick the SW, the reason being:
"prob need"
?
"PROB NEED!"?
So some people are kicking players at the end, just IN CASE they hit NEED for something for their own class?
I'm sorry, but these a-holes are nothing but childish overly self-entitled, c***s (I had to censor that myself! WTF?) and should be perma-banned from all PWE games.
I voted NO, of course, and posted "No one said this was a Greeeeeeeeeeeed run, so grow up".
I don't even know why they run to the end anyway - if you kill everything en route it does not take that much longer, everything seems to follow us anyway and if you kill things they drop Rank 4 enchants,
There is no way in the Universe to justify this kind of behaviour, and I wish people could be reported and have their accounts deleted for doing it.
At the very least, we should only ever be able to kick people who are disconnected. So get your finger out, Cryptic, and put an end to this unpleasantness.
PLEASE!
~
Seriously? ******** like that end up on my ignore list.
This is why I'm lobbying to just get rid of the "need" button
Never gonna happen.
So, good luck with that.
~
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited October 2014
FYI... I only have FOUR legendaries not Five. I still don't have my INT belt (makes me want to cry).
And i have an inferno and not a Tenser's disk (dying for tenser's disk),
and I'm still sporting a bunch of rank 9s too :S :S :S.
If you must know I have something like 16 characters doing leadership, 7 characters with 15.5k + GS, etc, so i'ts not like i'm hurting, but i also need upgrades as well.
But you know, it's not about me personally, it's about being fair to everyone. Maybe someone else runs the roll, so be it, that's fine, but I shouldn't get to need on an expensive CW and prevent their opprotunity to sell it.
And yeah, at least once a day i carry a group through a T2 so they can get their gear, and you know what? it does feel better for it, and i still get to roll on end loot, so massive win for all concerned. Like helping people out.
I still can't believe that people wanted to kick others BEFORE the roll, that's so terrible. I would just instead turn around and kick him for being an *******.
Seriously? ******** like that end up on my ignore list.
Yes! I was disgusted.
Judging by the way everyone was hitting the dust and my AC saved their *** with Astral Shield, healing and Hallowed Ground en route and in the boss fight, none of them were that well geared anyway.
Poor SW deserved his drop. I put the Bracers up for 18k AD, as both my TRs have better full sets anyway, so it's not like Gauntlgrym drops BIS gear. That character already has 20.8 k rough AD she cannot refine for the day, and still has another round of Professions to do, as well as various Dailies. I'll be able to buy another 3 Marks of Potency before midnight. But not by treating other people like a piece of HAMSTER.
Trying to rob the guy of his drop like that, probably before he even opened the chest to get his coins, is really quite sickening. Event ended then and I was back in PE.
:mad:
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
Judging by the way everyone was hitting the dust and my AC saved their *** with Astral Shield, healing and Hallowed Ground en route and in the boss fight, none of them were that well geared anyway.
Poor SW deserved his drop. I put the Bracers up for 18k AD, as both my TRs have better full sets anyway, so it's not like Gauntlgrym drops BIS gear. That character already has 20.8 k rough AD she cannot refine for the day, and still has another round of Professions to do, as well as various Dailies. I'll be able to buy another 3 Marks of Potency before midnight. But not by treating other people like a piece of HAMSTER.
Trying to rob the guy of his drop like that, probably before he even opened the chest to get his coins, is really quite sickening. Event ended then and I was back in PE.
:mad:
One of the reasons i like greed all runs is to prevent assholism like this,
but this guy takes it to another level, what? kicking someone BEFORE the roll, and on top of that it's T1 GG gear!?!? Do you REALLY need 20k AD so much to treat other people like this!?!?
Fair is relative to the player. Some players go into dungeons because they want to farm. Some players go into dungeons because they want to get gear. I wouldn't call greed runs as greed and need runs as something else. They both signify wanting something out of dungeons.
It all depends on which run the party decides on, thats the rule.
U will realise the reason ppl run greed in time as i did and there is many way to get gear not just by farming specifically for it..i got my gear by farming on greed regardless the pain of seeing the item i want got rolled by other player..i still got other stuff and sell them to get what i want..its just sooner or later thing
Guys, guys, I'm not telling that greed runs per se are something bad... but imposing them on ppl who actually want to gear themselves, or prefer need for other reason is.
Kicking ppl because they needed (not to mention because they "prob need") while it was not made 100% clear it was a greed run is ofc wrong!
My point is, greed or need, all is fine as long all party memebers know the rules (and no, greed is not obvious if you did not say it is a greed run) and accept them.
All greed or all need - the chance of winning the loot roll are exactly the same, I really don't get why is it such a big thing.
However, need runs would be simply more practical because there would be no risk that someone needs on something when they're suppose to greed.
However, need runs would be simply more practical because there would be no risk that someone needs on something when they're suppose to greed.
Wrong. 20% equal chance for everybody would be more fair to the different goals of everyone in the party.
Please understand that people go into dungeons for different desires. What they all have in common is that they came in for a PURPOSE. That purpose is different for each person and you should not discriminate nor does one player's purpose supercede another.
Anyway, there is no need for you to argue anything anymore because the big thing I hope everyone learns from this thread is that it is always good to clearly state whether it is a need/greed run. Even if nobody explicitly states anything, it is a wise move to ask everyone in the party because we have learned that both need and greed runs have been ingrained in people's mindsets that we cannot assume anything
Our guild has a clear rule: Greed on all gear that's not an upgrade (this applies mainly in the non-epic dungeons, as only blue's and greens drops which r fast an improvement). In epic's, you can need something if it's an upgrade but only after opening your dungeon delve chest to see if you don't get it already
There is logic to what you say. I won’t argue that. Perhaps I come from a different mentality. I play another Cryptic game (STO) and to be honest I don’t even know why there’s a greed button at all as everyone.. EVERYONE hits NEED for EVERY drop. At least in NW you can’t ‘need’ for an out-of-class item, giving some sense of balance, but in STO every drop can be used by every class, so they ALL ‘need’ it. It’s so frustrating to me for some reason.
When I first joined MMORPGS with a need/greed system we used it accordingly. Hell, even if a need was outrolled the winner may sometimes offer it to the loser… now it just seems greed rules.
I’ve been thinking about this since yesterday and I have come to the conclusion that, although frustrating at times, it is what it is. I, myself, have greed-rolled a few non-class items with the full intention of selling and, again, since I can’t ‘need’ an out-of-class item it’s all moot.
It was the same in this game back in open beta, everyone could roll need on every item that dropped. But unlike in STO, in which everyone can actually use every item, as you say (don't know myself, haven't really played it), in this game it's not the case.
So everyone rolled need on every item, whether he could use it or not. I remember that it took forever to get my bulwark set completed, saw it drop 5,6,7... times, but some CW or TR or DC thought "Oh, nice, I'll hit need". That's the reason why now you can only need on items for your own class (you can imagine that many players were really annoyed). Back then, you also didn't have a choice at the chest, there was 1 item in it, could be from the set you wanted to complete or a different set, or just some jewelry.
Nowadays, if a set part is in the chest, you can even chose which set you want. Additionally you couldn't get a chest whenever you wanted, you were dependant on DD time. Gearing up has become so easy if you compare it to what it was back in the days.
Honestly, you get your set sompleted pretty fast nowadays, I geared up 7 chars, all with a complete T2 set and I think the longest it took was maybe a week.
Would like to add one more point, some people in this thread insist "It is my drop, because it's for my class and I need it". Right, but . and it's a big but - they seem to forget that everyone wants to progress in a game, and that getting the equipment is the smallest part of this progress. Honestly, you get your set sompleted pretty fast nowadays, I geared up 7 chars, all with a complete T2 set and I think the longest it took was maybe a week.
Back to progressing in the game, the biggest part of it is upgrading enchants, companions, artifacts, artifact equipment. The thing is, the costs for this progress are the same for every player, no matter which class he plays. Upgrading a companion costs 750k AD for the GF as well as for the DC or the CW or GWF. The problem you'll face now, the equipment of some classes is more valuable than that of other classes. GF and DC gear is pretty cheap while CW or GWF gear is way more expensive. So, if you stick to "But everyone can need his gear and sell it or whatever, it's for his class" the GF or DC will need much more time to progress in the game than the GWF or CW, all playing the same amount of time.
Now some players came up with the idea "If everyone could get every item which drops, it would be fairer. Everyone would've the same chance to get the valuable items, and not only the CWs or GWFs." And this is, where rolling greed comes into play. It equalizes the intra-system imbalance. Players don't do greed runs because they are selfish, but because they were confronted with an imbalnced system, and this was their way to make the game fairer for everyone.
Wrong. 20% equal chance for everybody would be more fair to the different goals of everyone in the party.
But you still have 20% chance for the loot if everyone need... What about if I play a wizard and a tr items drop so our tr takes it? Well it could just as well drop a cw item!. And what if there are 2 trs there? Well each of them still has the same chance to get an item as everybody else!
Geez.... use logic people.
Oh and ofc items for classes like DC or GF are cheaper, but that's because they are less popular. Which means, there is also a smaller chance they'll have another of their class in a party to share the chance for the loot with.
But you still have 20% chance for the loot if everyone need... What about if I play a wizard and a tr items drop so our tr takes it? Well it could just as well drop a cw item!. And what if there are 2 trs there? Well each of them still has the same chance to get an item as everybody else!
Geez.... use logic people.
Well if you're going by the need rules of only need if you actually need it, then the ones helping you are expected to greed their drops so they actually have less chance to win loot, then they have less chance again if there's more than one of the same class, ie 2 CWs and lastly some classes loot it worth more. If you all greed then all of that is evenly broken up. Everyone needs AD, and even if you would like to wear the piece, then you're probably best selling it on the AH instead and try and get it from the chest.
If you don't want someone to ninja your loot, ask at the start to make sure it's a greed run. If you want it to be a need run, ask at the start otherwise you risk getting ninja kicked. There are a lot of people intolerant for ninjas even with no rules specified.
If the chest was unbound like it used to be, the it would be a lot more tolerable to need loot you want to use. Unfortunately it's the only thing worth anything so in a lot of peoples opinion, it's better to greed. If you win another classes item you could sell or trade for another set piece if you really want, but still it's best to get it from the chest. And if you were to roll need, open the chest first at least.
Still everyone should be rewarded equally for their time and nothing does that more fairly than greed for the reasons above and mentioned before.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
But you still have 20% chance for the loot if everyone need... What about if I play a wizard and a tr items drop so our tr takes it? Well it could just as well drop a cw item!. And what if there are 2 trs there? Well each of them still has the same chance to get an item as everybody else!
Geez.... use logic people.
Oh and ofc items for classes like DC or GF are cheaper, but that's because they are less popular. Which means, there is also a smaller chance they'll have another of their class in a party to share the chance for the loot with.
Ulv, hope things are going well for you Been a while.
Problem is explained above. Not all items are of equal value. If they were, then your solution would work fine.
That's why most farm groups prefer greed or split.
But you still have 20% chance for the loot if everyone need
False. You are assuming a rainbow comp 100% of the time.
This rarely is the case, therefore greed runs are the only runs which may produce an equal chance for everybody 100% of the time.
Also, you aren't using logic in your example. If you have 2x CWs on the party, even though your premise is correct that a CW armor will drop 20% of the time, those 2 CWs will have half the chance of getting it since they have to compete yet another roll between themselves. Meanwhile, the lone Warlock on the party has a full 20% to get the item he wants.
This really isn't hard people. Use your brains. Greed runs = guaranteed 20% EQUAL CHANCE FOR EVERYBODY.
But you still have 20% chance for the loot if everyone need... What about if I play a wizard and a tr items drop so our tr takes it? Well it could just as well drop a cw item!. And what if there are 2 trs there? Well each of them still has the same chance to get an item as everybody else!
Geez.... use logic people.
Oh and ofc items for classes like DC or GF are cheaper, but that's because they are less popular. Which means, there is also a smaller chance they'll have another of their class in a party to share the chance for the loot with.
That's pretty poor logic. So it's ok for the SW in your group to get all the 1M+ items and the TR should get stuck with all the 9K items?
I know I am posting this again, but I think this sums up both sides of the argument for the Greed Runs.
I think there is a time and a place for Greed Runs. When there is a new lvl 60, like me, who gets kicked for needing on an item that was an upgrade, because some 20k gs GWF decided he wants AD, that is too far. And the chest excuse isn't enough because there are only two times a day that the Dungeon Delves is up, and a dungeon takes a good 30 minutes to an hour to run. A new lvl 60 doesn't have the money for the key to the DD chest at the end, so he can only get it when the DD event is going. The greed run mentality in a PUG is going to only hurt Neverwinter in the long run. It is going to drive away new players to the point that the population grows stagnant and there aren't any new players, just players who are starting to get bored and leaving. This mentality of Greed Runs when in a PUG with new players will kill this game.
There is a time and a place. Don't let your want for "equal chance" discourage a new player from playing this game. It will only hurt it in the long run.
On the other hand, I have no problem with Greed Runs when the idea is agreed upon by EVERYONE in the group, and isn't forced. At that point you either ask in the beginning of a dungeon, and wait to see how many people are ok with it, or advertise in chat that you want to put together a Greed Run.
jondbx, just read my post on the last page, I think it's explained exhaustively there.
I'd like to highlight "So, if you stick to "But everyone can need his gear and sell it or whatever, it's for his class" the GF or DC will need much more time to progress in the game than the GWF or CW, all playing the same amount of time."
I don't think this is fair, like many others do, due to the reasons mentioned in my last post.
For most people in this game it's not about getting their gear, which can be achieved pretty fast as already pointed out, but about progressing by upgrading their artifacts, enchants, etc. which, once again, costs the same amount of AD for every class. With the greed system, everyone has the same chance to get the valuable drops and progress at an equal pace, which is not the case if it is need. (Of course, if all agreed to need class items, nothing against it).
I don't think this is fair, like many others do, due to the reasons mentioned in my last post.
For most people in this game it's not about getting their gear, which can be achieved pretty fast as already pointed out, but about progressing by upgrading their artifacts, enchants, etc. which, once again, costs the same amount of AD for every class. With the greed system, everyone has the same chance of progressing, which is not the case if it is need. (Of course, if all agreed to need class items, nothing against it).
Im sry to tell you this. but they will never understand or get what you and the others are trying to say unless the "Need system" becomes the new cool thing, and they start getting screwed up by other players who dont need the gears but claim they need it, and end up selling said gear in the AH.
I really dont know how hard it is to understand that no one is against the need system, all we are trying to point out here is that alot of players would abuse this system.
I mean come on peoples! it not hard to understand, the need system can be a fair system aswell, but the risk is just too much greater than the reward.
Let say you are doing a run where anyone can "need" on any item if they need it (This doesnt mean that they will not need on items if they are able to because they dont need them for upgrade), so am i suppose to hang around in the party in hopes of them passing on the item because they dont need them for an upgrade? what is going to actually prevent them from taking advantage of the system and actually need on items they dont need, and end up selling them on the AH?
This is crazy, what so hard to understand? if you are playing with a few friends or guildies that you actually know and trust, then by all means go with the need system where anyone can need something if it an upgrade.
But if you think im going to do a random pug run, and say "Need it" if you need it then you got another thing coming, i dont let no one take advantage of my generosity
Im sry to tell you this. but they will never understand or get what you and the others are trying to say unless the "Need system" becomes the new cool thing, and they start getting screwed up by other players who dont need the gears but claim they need it, and end up selling said gear in the AH.
I really dont know how hard it is to understand that no one is against the need system, all we are trying to point out here is that alot of players would abuse this system.
I mean come on peoples! it not hard to understand, the need system can be a fair system aswell, but the risk is just too much greater than the reward.
Let say you are doing a run where anyone can "need" on any item if they need it (This doesnt mean that they will not need on items if they are able to because they dont need them for upgrade), so am i suppose to hang around in the party in hopes of them passing on the item because they dont need them for an upgrade? what is going to actually prevent them from taking advantage of the system and actually need on items they dont need, and end up selling them on the AH?
This is crazy, what so hard to understand? if you are playing with a few friends or guildies that you actually know and trust, then by all means go with the need system where anyone can need something if it an upgrade.
But if you think im going to do a random pug run, and say "Need it" if you need it then you got another thing coming, i dont let no one take advantage of my generosity
I'm indeed fine, even if sometime forum gives me more fun than the actual game, ty
Anyway, yes, gear for some classes is more valuable than for some others, but it is a result of some classes being more popular.
SW is relatively new which is why items for this class are a bit more expensive now, however, in general the more popular class, the more expensive gear. The more expensive item, the bigger chance there will be more than 1 person who can need it. So, if you play a cleric, you'll be getting things by need more often, but they'll be less valuable. Run a cw and your loot will be nicer, but you won't be getting any that frequently.
And I still think need runs reduce the risk of being ninja-ed. Why? Because even if all agree to greed (which I also still find a bad option for gearing up players), needing happens. Not when you run with guildies or friends, most likely not with legit community, but people from lfg or the queue? I personally do not trust them further than I can throw them.
There. It is so late here that it is almost becoming early, so I'm going to bed now. Goodnight
So in your opinion, people playing a less popular class should be punished for it? And I don't know if you're aware of it, but we're speaking about a difference of about at least 300k between a DC armor and a CW armor, You seriously think this could be made up by a few more items you may get? (which isn't even true, because the queue works GF/DC/3*dps class, and with 5 dps classes - HR, GWF,CW, TR and warlock all count as dps class - you're well likely to be the only one of your class).
What you're saying is "You're playing a less popular class, so you earnt to progress slower than other players in this game." I don't think this is fair.
People are greedy, they just don't say they are. Greed runs give themselves a fair chance, that's primary, giving everyone else a shot is secondary.
Be thankful dungeons still need a vote kick.
Look at SOT skirmish. The treatise is so rare that the best of players I've seen resort to kicking when it drops. I've been kicked off the team every time the treatise drops. The only one time I haven't been kicked of is when I was the leader, some lucky guy got it, not me though, but every one had a fair shot.
Despite defending greed runs, if team leaders had the power in dungeons as well, things can turn out very differently. Greed trumps fairness in an mmo.
Comments
Needing all is the way to save everybody a lot of drama, both "oops, I wanted to greed, sorry my finger slipped" and "kick him out, he needed even if we totally didn't say this is a greed run!". And ofc "oh my , that piece I've tried to get 30 runs already just dropped! The chest may contain it, or a t1 ring, what should I do?"
If everybody need everything, it is just as fair (or even more, if ppl are trying to gear themselves there) as greeding all. The only problem is to make rules clear and stick to them.
You people should get off your moral high-ground because it's far less solid than you seem to believe... If this is your first MMO, you need to get used to the "greed" attitude, because it is MASSIVELY PERVASIVE in ANY MMO, and for good reason.
The world won't change for you, either you change for it, or accept it as it is...
Fair is relative to the player. Some players go into dungeons because they want to farm. Some players go into dungeons because they want to get gear. I wouldn't call greed runs as greed and need runs as something else. They both signify wanting something out of dungeons.
It all depends on which run the party decides on, thats the rule.
U will realise the reason ppl run greed in time as i did and there is many way to get gear not just by farming specifically for it..i got my gear by farming on greed regardless the pain of seeing the item i want got rolled by other player..i still got other stuff and sell them to get what i want..its just sooner or later thing
Apart from the fact that everyone was trying to run to the end and getting killed like idiots en route, in the last run a Scourge Warlock item dropped, so I hit Greed as I was playing a DC. Then an illiterate buffoon stared a vote to kick the SW, the reason being:
"prob need"
?
"PROB NEED!"?
So some people are kicking players at the end, just IN CASE they hit NEED for something for their own class?
I'm sorry, but these a-holes are nothing but childish overly self-entitled, c***s (I had to censor that myself! WTF?) and should be perma-banned from all PWE games.
I voted NO, of course, and posted "No one said this was a Greeeeeeeeeeeed run, so grow up".
I don't even know why they run to the end anyway - if you kill everything en route it does not take that much longer, everything seems to follow us anyway and if you kill things they drop Rank 4 enchants,
There is no way in the Universe to justify this kind of behaviour, and I wish people could be reported and have their accounts deleted for doing it.
At the very least, we should only ever be able to kick people who are disconnected. So get your finger out, Cryptic, and put an end to this unpleasantness.
PLEASE!
~
So get rid of the "need" button then right?
There is a time and a place. Don't let your want for "equal chance" discourage a new player from playing this game. It will only hurt it in the long run.
No. Get rid of the ability to kick anyone who is not disconnected.
Seriously? ******** like that end up on my ignore list.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Never gonna happen.
So, good luck with that.
~
And i have an inferno and not a Tenser's disk (dying for tenser's disk),
and I'm still sporting a bunch of rank 9s too :S :S :S.
If you must know I have something like 16 characters doing leadership, 7 characters with 15.5k + GS, etc, so i'ts not like i'm hurting, but i also need upgrades as well.
But you know, it's not about me personally, it's about being fair to everyone. Maybe someone else runs the roll, so be it, that's fine, but I shouldn't get to need on an expensive CW and prevent their opprotunity to sell it.
And yeah, at least once a day i carry a group through a T2 so they can get their gear, and you know what? it does feel better for it, and i still get to roll on end loot, so massive win for all concerned. Like helping people out.
I still can't believe that people wanted to kick others BEFORE the roll, that's so terrible. I would just instead turn around and kick him for being an *******.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Yes! I was disgusted.
Judging by the way everyone was hitting the dust and my AC saved their *** with Astral Shield, healing and Hallowed Ground en route and in the boss fight, none of them were that well geared anyway.
Poor SW deserved his drop. I put the Bracers up for 18k AD, as both my TRs have better full sets anyway, so it's not like Gauntlgrym drops BIS gear. That character already has 20.8 k rough AD she cannot refine for the day, and still has another round of Professions to do, as well as various Dailies. I'll be able to buy another 3 Marks of Potency before midnight. But not by treating other people like a piece of HAMSTER.
Trying to rob the guy of his drop like that, probably before he even opened the chest to get his coins, is really quite sickening. Event ended then and I was back in PE.
:mad:
One of the reasons i like greed all runs is to prevent assholism like this,
but this guy takes it to another level, what? kicking someone BEFORE the roll, and on top of that it's T1 GG gear!?!? Do you REALLY need 20k AD so much to treat other people like this!?!?
Disgusting, honestly.
(stuff like this is why i don't pug)
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Guys, guys, I'm not telling that greed runs per se are something bad... but imposing them on ppl who actually want to gear themselves, or prefer need for other reason is.
Kicking ppl because they needed (not to mention because they "prob need") while it was not made 100% clear it was a greed run is ofc wrong!
My point is, greed or need, all is fine as long all party memebers know the rules (and no, greed is not obvious if you did not say it is a greed run) and accept them.
All greed or all need - the chance of winning the loot roll are exactly the same, I really don't get why is it such a big thing.
However, need runs would be simply more practical because there would be no risk that someone needs on something when they're suppose to greed.
Wrong. 20% equal chance for everybody would be more fair to the different goals of everyone in the party.
Please understand that people go into dungeons for different desires. What they all have in common is that they came in for a PURPOSE. That purpose is different for each person and you should not discriminate nor does one player's purpose supercede another.
Anyway, there is no need for you to argue anything anymore because the big thing I hope everyone learns from this thread is that it is always good to clearly state whether it is a need/greed run. Even if nobody explicitly states anything, it is a wise move to ask everyone in the party because we have learned that both need and greed runs have been ingrained in people's mindsets that we cannot assume anything
It was the same in this game back in open beta, everyone could roll need on every item that dropped. But unlike in STO, in which everyone can actually use every item, as you say (don't know myself, haven't really played it), in this game it's not the case.
So everyone rolled need on every item, whether he could use it or not. I remember that it took forever to get my bulwark set completed, saw it drop 5,6,7... times, but some CW or TR or DC thought "Oh, nice, I'll hit need". That's the reason why now you can only need on items for your own class (you can imagine that many players were really annoyed). Back then, you also didn't have a choice at the chest, there was 1 item in it, could be from the set you wanted to complete or a different set, or just some jewelry.
Nowadays, if a set part is in the chest, you can even chose which set you want. Additionally you couldn't get a chest whenever you wanted, you were dependant on DD time. Gearing up has become so easy if you compare it to what it was back in the days.
Honestly, you get your set sompleted pretty fast nowadays, I geared up 7 chars, all with a complete T2 set and I think the longest it took was maybe a week.
Would like to add one more point, some people in this thread insist "It is my drop, because it's for my class and I need it". Right, but . and it's a big but - they seem to forget that everyone wants to progress in a game, and that getting the equipment is the smallest part of this progress. Honestly, you get your set sompleted pretty fast nowadays, I geared up 7 chars, all with a complete T2 set and I think the longest it took was maybe a week.
Back to progressing in the game, the biggest part of it is upgrading enchants, companions, artifacts, artifact equipment. The thing is, the costs for this progress are the same for every player, no matter which class he plays. Upgrading a companion costs 750k AD for the GF as well as for the DC or the CW or GWF. The problem you'll face now, the equipment of some classes is more valuable than that of other classes. GF and DC gear is pretty cheap while CW or GWF gear is way more expensive. So, if you stick to "But everyone can need his gear and sell it or whatever, it's for his class" the GF or DC will need much more time to progress in the game than the GWF or CW, all playing the same amount of time.
Now some players came up with the idea "If everyone could get every item which drops, it would be fairer. Everyone would've the same chance to get the valuable items, and not only the CWs or GWFs." And this is, where rolling greed comes into play. It equalizes the intra-system imbalance. Players don't do greed runs because they are selfish, but because they were confronted with an imbalnced system, and this was their way to make the game fairer for everyone.
But you still have 20% chance for the loot if everyone need... What about if I play a wizard and a tr items drop so our tr takes it? Well it could just as well drop a cw item!. And what if there are 2 trs there? Well each of them still has the same chance to get an item as everybody else!
Geez.... use logic people.
Oh and ofc items for classes like DC or GF are cheaper, but that's because they are less popular. Which means, there is also a smaller chance they'll have another of their class in a party to share the chance for the loot with.
Well if you're going by the need rules of only need if you actually need it, then the ones helping you are expected to greed their drops so they actually have less chance to win loot, then they have less chance again if there's more than one of the same class, ie 2 CWs and lastly some classes loot it worth more. If you all greed then all of that is evenly broken up. Everyone needs AD, and even if you would like to wear the piece, then you're probably best selling it on the AH instead and try and get it from the chest.
If you don't want someone to ninja your loot, ask at the start to make sure it's a greed run. If you want it to be a need run, ask at the start otherwise you risk getting ninja kicked. There are a lot of people intolerant for ninjas even with no rules specified.
If the chest was unbound like it used to be, the it would be a lot more tolerable to need loot you want to use. Unfortunately it's the only thing worth anything so in a lot of peoples opinion, it's better to greed. If you win another classes item you could sell or trade for another set piece if you really want, but still it's best to get it from the chest. And if you were to roll need, open the chest first at least.
Still everyone should be rewarded equally for their time and nothing does that more fairly than greed for the reasons above and mentioned before.
Ulv, hope things are going well for you
Problem is explained above. Not all items are of equal value. If they were, then your solution would work fine.
That's why most farm groups prefer greed or split.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
False. You are assuming a rainbow comp 100% of the time.
This rarely is the case, therefore greed runs are the only runs which may produce an equal chance for everybody 100% of the time.
Also, you aren't using logic in your example. If you have 2x CWs on the party, even though your premise is correct that a CW armor will drop 20% of the time, those 2 CWs will have half the chance of getting it since they have to compete yet another roll between themselves. Meanwhile, the lone Warlock on the party has a full 20% to get the item he wants.
This really isn't hard people. Use your brains. Greed runs = guaranteed 20% EQUAL CHANCE FOR EVERYBODY.
Don't make it more complicated than it is.
That's pretty poor logic. So it's ok for the SW in your group to get all the 1M+ items and the TR should get stuck with all the 9K items?
I think there is a time and a place for Greed Runs. When there is a new lvl 60, like me, who gets kicked for needing on an item that was an upgrade, because some 20k gs GWF decided he wants AD, that is too far. And the chest excuse isn't enough because there are only two times a day that the Dungeon Delves is up, and a dungeon takes a good 30 minutes to an hour to run. A new lvl 60 doesn't have the money for the key to the DD chest at the end, so he can only get it when the DD event is going. The greed run mentality in a PUG is going to only hurt Neverwinter in the long run. It is going to drive away new players to the point that the population grows stagnant and there aren't any new players, just players who are starting to get bored and leaving. This mentality of Greed Runs when in a PUG with new players will kill this game.
There is a time and a place. Don't let your want for "equal chance" discourage a new player from playing this game. It will only hurt it in the long run.
On the other hand, I have no problem with Greed Runs when the idea is agreed upon by EVERYONE in the group, and isn't forced. At that point you either ask in the beginning of a dungeon, and wait to see how many people are ok with it, or advertise in chat that you want to put together a Greed Run.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I'd like to highlight "So, if you stick to "But everyone can need his gear and sell it or whatever, it's for his class" the GF or DC will need much more time to progress in the game than the GWF or CW, all playing the same amount of time."
I don't think this is fair, like many others do, due to the reasons mentioned in my last post.
For most people in this game it's not about getting their gear, which can be achieved pretty fast as already pointed out, but about progressing by upgrading their artifacts, enchants, etc. which, once again, costs the same amount of AD for every class. With the greed system, everyone has the same chance to get the valuable drops and progress at an equal pace, which is not the case if it is need. (Of course, if all agreed to need class items, nothing against it).
Im sry to tell you this. but they will never understand or get what you and the others are trying to say unless the "Need system" becomes the new cool thing, and they start getting screwed up by other players who dont need the gears but claim they need it, and end up selling said gear in the AH.
I really dont know how hard it is to understand that no one is against the need system, all we are trying to point out here is that alot of players would abuse this system.
I mean come on peoples! it not hard to understand, the need system can be a fair system aswell, but the risk is just too much greater than the reward.
Let say you are doing a run where anyone can "need" on any item if they need it (This doesnt mean that they will not need on items if they are able to because they dont need them for upgrade), so am i suppose to hang around in the party in hopes of them passing on the item because they dont need them for an upgrade? what is going to actually prevent them from taking advantage of the system and actually need on items they dont need, and end up selling them on the AH?
This is crazy, what so hard to understand? if you are playing with a few friends or guildies that you actually know and trust, then by all means go with the need system where anyone can need something if it an upgrade.
But if you think im going to do a random pug run, and say "Need it" if you need it then you got another thing coming, i dont let no one take advantage of my generosity
That all i gotta say, take it as you will.
Anyway, yes, gear for some classes is more valuable than for some others, but it is a result of some classes being more popular.
SW is relatively new which is why items for this class are a bit more expensive now, however, in general the more popular class, the more expensive gear. The more expensive item, the bigger chance there will be more than 1 person who can need it. So, if you play a cleric, you'll be getting things by need more often, but they'll be less valuable. Run a cw and your loot will be nicer, but you won't be getting any that frequently.
And I still think need runs reduce the risk of being ninja-ed. Why? Because even if all agree to greed (which I also still find a bad option for gearing up players), needing happens. Not when you run with guildies or friends, most likely not with legit community, but people from lfg or the queue? I personally do not trust them further than I can throw them.
There. It is so late here that it is almost becoming early, so I'm going to bed now. Goodnight
What you're saying is "You're playing a less popular class, so you earnt to progress slower than other players in this game." I don't think this is fair.
Be thankful dungeons still need a vote kick.
Look at SOT skirmish. The treatise is so rare that the best of players I've seen resort to kicking when it drops. I've been kicked off the team every time the treatise drops. The only one time I haven't been kicked of is when I was the leader, some lucky guy got it, not me though, but every one had a fair shot.
Despite defending greed runs, if team leaders had the power in dungeons as well, things can turn out very differently. Greed trumps fairness in an mmo.