Need - Item is needed for an upgrade, marginal or not
Greed - I'm gonna sell this item
And the dungeon took, what, 30 minutes? You're upset you lost 30 minutes of time potentially making new friends, or helping out your fellow man? Shame on you.
Good Grief! I have 12 level 60 characters and I form a party with low GS PUGs just to help complete strangers through dungeons I have already done. Just because it s FUN and it makes me feel good to help out newbies.
All these GRRREEEEEEEEEEDDDD RRRUUUUUNNNNNNAAAAAAHHHHHHHSSSS!!!! probably never played a moment's AD&D in their life. They obviously have no clue what it's about.
LOL I grew up playing AD&D from the time I was 8. and it was the same then, greed.... If my character needed an item in the end loot then that was counted as part of my "share" of the collected loot. however that option isn't in this game so kinda makes that idea moot.
But seriously, If your a new player and looking to get some help getting geared. Wicked Vendetta guild is recruiting send me a tell or mail in game ( @Bloodyhell69 ) we enjoy the game and helping new players to get through it. We're not a big guild, but we're growing and we make time for our new members.
You're assumption that I'm a bad teammate is wrong. If I get an item I need, I thank my group immediately. And I'm always one of the first to tell my group "Good job, thanks for the group/items." And if it's a REALLY good group of people, I tend to add them to my friends list for future groups. I'm not a total <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> when it comes to this. But yes, if I need an item, I will roll NEED.
If someone in party in my party would roll Need on an epic class item that isnt BoP, then would rub it in saying "Good job, thanx for the item" - I would concider them sarcastic ninjas, put them on ignore list to make sure I never invite/get invited by them to the same party
LOL man, this thread is begging for sarcasm. It's like, "i'm bad, i need gear. I know i could get a BOUND item from the chest, but let me take the unbound item from the rest of the team. Yes, i know they helped me, but I NEED MY GEAR and no one else deserves a reward for helping ME."
I think the needers are incredibly selfish.
Well they are selfish there is no other way to put it. 20% chance for everyone to win the loot is fair. Ironically Greed runs are fair (despite its namesake).
People who think putting the needs of 1 above the other party members is not a greedy perspective are flat-out ignorant of what the term greed means.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
You're assumption that I'm a bad teammate is wrong. If I get an item I need, I thank my group immediately. And I'm always one of the first to tell my group "Good job, thanks for the group/items." And if it's a REALLY good group of people, I tend to add them to my friends list for future groups. I'm not a total <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> when it comes to this. But yes, if I need an item, I will roll NEED.
Hey man, I always say thank you and grow my friends list too, honestly.
When I was gearing up my SW we did some greed all runs and i got my gear from the chest.
If you see my guides, i put a lot of effort into helping people too. I work really hard on that, so I don't think i'm an <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> either.
I've just had a lot of bad experiences on this topic, had things go very very wrong. Guild broken in two, people yelling and screaming on raidcall, endless arguments, and since i was guild leader all those problems became my problems. I took a 5 month break because I was sick and tired of dealing with that bull****.
This is why I always always always ask loot rolls before the run, at the campfire. Normally i assume greed all and double check.
Now say it's VT or MC or something, people will say "i really need this BOP item, i'm going to need on it if it drops." Sure, I don't care, no one cares! That's fine.
But say we run karrundax, and the SW needs on the AD braces, worth half a million AD that are BOE. The rest of the team is there to sell those braces. Now of course, the new SW could get it from the chest, or he could run it again and get it quickly, and i bet the rest of the team would be fine running it for him! So we greed on the BOE stuff and everyone has a fair shot at the 500k AD, that's fine and dandy with me.
What i don't understand is taking a BOE item, which everyone wants to sell, when you could get the BOP item to use from the chest. THAT'S what i think is selfish. It bothers me a lot. Want me to run karrundax ten times with you, because we are friends and you need your gloves, ok, fine, no problem. Want to ninja the item everyone else wants to sell? I don't see how that's inconsiderate.
I'm wondering if you and i are just very touchy on this subject and misunderstood each other. I got a bit inflamed on it because I remember people who were friends and played together all the time literally split into two camps, each thought each other were destible selfish people, and we all stopped playing together over this very issue. I wish people could just roll with it, but humans aren't like that.
Anyway, i just want to hear your take on the BOE/BOP loot. I apologize for overreacting, I've had some bad history, and honestly i miss my friends.
If someone in party in my party would roll Need on an epic class item that isnt BoP, then would rub it in saying "Good job, thanx for the item" - I would concider them sarcastic ninjas, put them on ignore list to make sure I never invite/get invited by them to the same party
Quite honestly, I would probably have this reaction.
You "needed" what you can from a dungeon. Do you just never go back to that dungeon again?
If you do go back to that dungeon and the same item drops, do you still need on it because it is class specific?
If you don't ever go back to that dungeon, then how does that help newer geared players?
You got yours , so no reason to go back?
For the third and final time.
GREED=20% chance for EVERYONE in party to get item
NEED=only you get that item (if your only one of that class, or only one who hit need) nobody else can get it.
In the real world, the guy who picks, "Only I get a chance at the item." is the greedy one.
No amount of "but he needs it so you're the greedy one" logic can refute that.
You need gear, I need AD for gear. Putting your needs above mine is GREED pure and simple.
..and thats why needers get booted.
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arthgon2049Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Well they are selfish there is no other way to put it. 20% chance for everyone to win the loot is fair. Ironically Greed runs are fair (despite its namesake).
People who think putting the needs of 1 above the other party members is not a greedy perspective are flat-out ignorant of what the term greed means.
And the entitlement generation strikes again!
I'm sorry to have to inform you, but you are unaware of how the system in place works. A group aka a team is a group of people working together to complete a goal. That goal is actually to complete the dungeon not get loot at the end. That is the +1 for completing for that very special snowflake who the loot is for. Again, that 1 person is not being selfish if they actually can wear the item in question and it is an upgrade, like someone previously posted, marginal or not.
And to help you understand the definition of greed:
greed
ɡrēd/
noun
noun: greed
intense and selfish desire for something, especially wealth, power, or food.
That one person that is pressing Need for an item is in fact not being greedy. And to help you understand what a need is:
need
nēd/
verb
1.
require (something) because it is essential or very important.
2.
expressing necessity or obligation.
By you saying that 1 person is being greedy, you are trying to impose your own greed to someone else. If loot is so important to you, make some friends, run the dungeon, problem-solved. Don't under any circumstances use the queue.
When I was growing up can you believe we only had 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place and sometimes the rest of the kids on the field wouldn't get anything but a "better luck next time" and a slap on the back? Crazy, I know!
The simple fact is that without greed runs, there would be a larger segregation of the player base, because if more experienced (and thus usually better geared) players will largely simply not do runs in instances they have done a lot of times before if they do not get at least their statistical 20% of the rewards (disregarding the extra chest usefulness for low-geared players).
It's like if things were all BOP. Players who had nothing they specifically needed for their character from an instance simply would not enter it unless it was for a good friend or in a socially tight-knit guild.
Also, since NW is a pay 2 be strong game, if one is not a heavy zen buyer, stuff like high rank enchantments, bags, vanity items or earning enough AD to start playing the market or craft profitably and get auto-income is earned primarily through greed runs.
It's been stated countless times. Better geared and experienced players are already effectively subsidizing less experienced players through their knowledge and largely superior performance, even when the BOE loot is statistically 20% split per person.
People talking about the higher geared more experienced players wanting to do greed runs being entitled have their heads up their ***. They are the entitled ones, who expect to get a statistically way higher reward for doing the run merely because they do not already have the gear that can drop as BOE.
This isn't a socialist state where those worse off get subsidized by those better off so that people can generally live decent lives, with the crime rate being generally lower due to social safety nets (and even then, they aren't entitled. it is a nationally organized charity for which they should be thankful). This is a video game. You don't "need" that item any more than the rest of the party needs what they would buy in game for the sell price AD. Players are individuals, who spend their time with actual goals in mind. Those goals generally don't involve running an instance for the 40th time so a stranger will simply take the only things of value that drops.
When my guild was active, we struggled with drama before standardizing loot rules, and in the end we ended up on a greed-split system with a discount if someone wanted to buy out the others for the item, because before that, things would get unfair and skewed and some experienced players would become reluctant to PVE at all.
Some would start arguing that they should be able to need for their lvl 60 alts, which felt exploitative against people with few lvl 60s and everything was just chaos. The greed-split-buyout system was the only truly functional system.
Often, when people would want to buy out, their more close friends in the guild would tell them that they didn't need to pay their share, so that they only had to buy out 3 people's share, or 2 people's share, so that people could be generous as individuals through the buyout system. Pressuring others to not take their share was quickly "outlawed" due to its toxic effects, with it explicitly having to come form individual initiatives for generosity.
That's how a system feels emotionally right. When one can be generous when one wants, or take one's fair 20% share or rollchance when one wants.
I'm sorry to have to inform you, but you are unaware of how the system in place works. A group aka a team is a group of people working together to complete a goal. That goal is actually to complete the dungeon not get loot at the end. That is the +1 for completing for that very special snowflake who the loot is for. Again, that 1 person is not being selfish if they actually can wear the item in question and it is an upgrade, like someone previously posted, marginal or not.
Welcome back ignorance! Oh how I love arguing with these need-proponents!
Everyone gets a 20% chance at the loot. Everyone participated in the dungeon. Everyone wants to get something out of the dungeon run and not be a feeder for the progression of other players.
How the system works? You go on your little need runs, while the rest of the community goes on greed runs. If you need in a greed run, I do hope someone kicks you for being selfish. And please, nobody really needs anything in a videogame. Nobody will starve to death if they don't get their mainhand. Everyone is playing this VIDEOGAME to get VIRTUAL ITEMS.
Don't put the needs of 1 player above the others. Flaws in your logic everywhere.
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arthgon2049Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You "needed" what you can from a dungeon. Do you just never go back to that dungeon again?
If you do go back to that dungeon and the same item drops, do you still need on it because it is class specific?
If you don't ever go back to that dungeon, then how does that help newer geared players?
You got yours , so no reason to go back?
For the third and final time.
GREED=20% chance for EVERYONE in party to get item
NEED=only you get that item (if your only one of that class, or only one who hit need) nobody else can get it.
In the real world, the guy who picks, "Only I get a chance at the item." is the greedy one.
No amount of "but he needs it so you're the greedy one" logic can refute that.
You need gear, I need AD for gear. Putting your needs above mine is GREED pure and simple.
..and thats why needers get booted.
It's been posted several times by several people ad naseaum that they will go back and help lower geared people get loot and not hit the need button, they will in fact hit the greed button.
This system is based on honor, a virtue a lot of the community seems to be lacking it seems.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
You "needed" what you can from a dungeon. Do you just never go back to that dungeon again?
If you do go back to that dungeon and the same item drops, do you still need on it because it is class specific?
If you don't ever go back to that dungeon, then how does that help newer geared players?
You got yours , so no reason to go back?
For the third and final time.
GREED=20% chance for EVERYONE in party to get item
NEED=only you get that item (if your only one of that class, or only one who hit need) nobody else can get it.
In the real world, the guy who picks, "Only I get a chance at the item." is the greedy one.
No amount of "but he needs it so you're the greedy one" logic can refute that.
You need gear, I need AD for gear. Putting your needs above mine is GREED pure and simple.
Welcome back ignorance! Oh how I love arguing with these need-proponents!
Everyone gets a 20% chance at the loot. Everyone participated in the dungeon. Everyone wants to get something out of the dungeon run and not be a feeder for the progression of other players.
How the system works? You go on your little need runs, while the rest of the community goes on greed runs. If you need in a greed run, I do hope someone kicks you for being selfish. And please, nobody really needs anything in a videogame. Nobody will starve to death if they don't get their mainhand. Everyone is playing this VIDEOGAME to get VIRTUAL ITEMS.
Don't put the needs of 1 player above the others. Flaws in your logic everywhere.
Maybe you should try reading all the way through, cause if you got to the bottom of my post you would have read this, here I copied and pasted so it's easier for you.
"When I was growing up can you believe we only had 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place and sometimes the rest of the kids on the field wouldn't get anything but a "better luck next time" and a slap on the back? Crazy, I know!"
Sometimes you go into a dungeon and get nothing, sometimes you get something you can sale. RNG is RNG. if you're old enough to go to Las Vegas, do you walk into a casino and demand they give you equal odds to win, after all, everyone there is there to win, so you all deserve equal odds, right?
Sometimes you go into a dungeon and get nothing, sometimes you get something you can sale. RNG is RNG. if you're old enough to go to Las Vegas, do you walk into a casino and demand they give you equal odds to win, after all, everyone there is there to win, so you all deserve equal odds, right?
So RNG and RNG. Why does the new player have to get a bigger piece of the pie then? Why can't EVERY player be subjected to the same 20% RNG?
You really aren't making a lot of sense at the moment. Put the vodka down first and come back to me.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited October 2014
Don't all players in the casino technically have equal odds to win any specific game, and only the house has an advantage?
So RNG and RNG. Why does the new player have to get a bigger piece of the pie then? Why can't EVERY player be subjected to the same 20% RNG?
You really aren't making a lot of sense at the moment. Put the vodka down first and come back to me.
I seem to be making sense to anyone with a brain on the subject, this isn't a new system invented by Cryptic only for Neverwinter. and it's not "RNG and RNG", it's RNG is RNG, before you try to say I'm drunk, make sure you're not talking like a drunken sailor yourself there, cowboy.
Now, again, for the simple-minded folk who just can understand how one plus one equals two. Need, Greed, Pass system is a system as old as MMOs themselves. If you need the item, no matter how marginal of an upgrade for you, need away. If you are just going to sale the item, press Greed, why, you ask, because you are taking that item from a place of greed, if you don't want the item at all, because it's clogging up your bags, press pass.
I"m sorry you feel that you are entitled to something, here's a news flash, you're not. When you queue for that dungeon, you are effectively saying to yourself, I'm going in there for this item or that item that will upgrade my gear. You should not be going into that dungeon saying, what can I take from someone else to sale on the AH.
Don't all players in the casino technically have equal odds to win any specific game, and only the house has an advantage?
Flawed metaphor is flawed.
There is a blanket odd system per game, yes. But depending on how many people are at that table, your odds change. I"m not going to go through the numbers with you, since by your post it tells me that you're not old enough to gamble.
Sometimes you go into a dungeon and get nothing, sometimes you get something you can sale. RNG is RNG. if you're old enough to go to Las Vegas, do you walk into a casino and demand they give you equal odds to win, after all, everyone there is there to win, so you all deserve equal odds, right?
That has to be the most asinine metaphor I have ever seen, in vegas rules are agreed upon and enforced, all people know them and all people are subject to them yet you are the one arguing that people are not obeying your personal definition of the rules - in your metaphor its actually you demanding that people apply your belief set.
"When I was growing up can you believe we only had 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place and sometimes the rest of the kids on the field wouldn't get anything but a "better luck next time" and a slap on the back? Crazy, I know!"
Times have changed, adapt or be left behind as irrelevant
I"m sorry you feel that you are entitled to something, here's a news flash, you're not. When you queue for that dungeon, you are effectively saying to yourself, I'm going in there for this item or that item that will upgrade my gear. You should not be going into that dungeon saying, what can I take from someone else to sale on the AH.
Parties I've made/formed were always Need it if you need it. I understand that PUGs in general prefer Greed all purple items. I'm fine with that. They're not my groups so I don't/shouldn't try and dictate rules to them. The whole Greed all purple items has been "explained" to me that it's because they want to be fair and that it'd be "greedy" to Need it If you need it. If you need the item for an upgrade, then you should be able to Need it. That's just my opinion.
Also, that whole thing about, "well what if other people want items for their alts" argument is kind of messed up to me. If you want the item on your alt, maybe you should be... Oh I don't know... PLAYing that alt instead of using the character you're currently on? If you WANT caster items, then make/play a caster. If you want rogue items, then make/play a rogue. Don't be running around on your current character and playing through dungeons just for items for your alts. That'd just be plain... "GREEDY" on your part.
"If you're going to ride my HAMSTER... At least pull my hair" Taking the trash out, one badguy at a time. "Satisfaction guaranteed or twice your trash back."
It seems everyone here except for arthgon2049 is supposedly "not old enough" to get into a casino despite the fact that he is the only one who continuously failed to apply the metaphor correctly. Go figure
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arthgon2049Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
If you need and wear an armour piece that's boe, you're wasting one of the little valuable items in the game. If you want to do it then greed on your standard greed runs. Everyone else had to get it from the chest which has reasonable chances and didn't rely on rng like it used to for old timers. I greeded my 1.2m bracers I wanted on my warlock. Doing otherwise is greedy by thinking your time is worth more than those that helped you. Unless in certain circumstances, I'm not here to help you gear up and take the loot for yourself. I'm here for an equal short of everything like everyone else. Sometimes it took a while to get a group for dungeons and that would only be harder if you only wanted a need party.
What may be considered a waste to you, is not a waste to that person that is actually wearing it. Again, if you're not here to help other players gear up, then don't queue. Simple, discussion over. Use that channel the devs have given you called...Looking for Group, but don't queue for a dungeon and expect someone to follow the same player-created rule sets as you.
Here's a news flash for all you greeders, if Cryptic wanted dungeon runs to be as you say they should be, they would not have the N,G,P system in place.
I"m sorry you feel that you are entitled to something, here's a news flash, you're not. When you queue for that dungeon, you are effectively saying to yourself, I'm going in there for this item or that item that will upgrade my gear. You should not be going into that dungeon saying, what can I take from someone else to sale on the AH.
I hope that was clear enough for ya, sparky.
I see that you feel entitled to the loot and do not feel like giving anyone else a chance at it.
You are greedy. Is that clear enough for ya , Sparky?
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arthgon2049Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
That has to be the most asinine metaphor I have ever seen, in vegas rules are agreed upon and enforced, all people know them and all people are subject to them yet you are the one arguing that people are not obeying your personal definition of the rules - in your metaphor its actually you demanding that people apply your belief set.
Times have changed, adapt or be left behind as irrelevant
Incorrect, it is in fact you who are saying that the entire player-base should follow a system created by greedy players on a whim, not use what's been given to us in game to upgrade our gear. Go eat something, your blood sugar is low.
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arthgon2049Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I see that you feel entitled to the loot and do not feel like giving anyone else a chance at it.
You are greedy. Is that clear enough for ya , Sparky?
Oh right, because that's what I said, maybe if you read all of my posts in context that is clearly not what I'm saying, nice try though.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited October 2014
Experince with people from not guild/not friends/not legit
1) Need on loot when we said greed before - gets booted and ignored.
2) Plays very poorly and seems intent on wiping the party
3) Does #2 then insults and blames other people for it.
4) Once i was trading a B. Bile for a P.Vorpal, back when that was even. I spent days and days in PE. one guy was selling aranea. some other guy was selling the vorpal. Vorpal guy wanted aranea, so i traded my bile for the aranea, the vorpal guy logged off. Same guy crossboxing. I lost 2-3M AD on that.
I was probably an idiot too, so it's partially my fault.
I remember once I was in PK, when i was new. I said "oh, never seen a tiefling GF before" guy said "GTFO" and booted me.
Most PUGS have been full of idiots and ********. I simply don't PUG anymore. If I have to use LFG i will either do dailies or log because I don't like being treated so poorly.
Oh, also we had two friends in my guild. They were very close, so they formed their own guild. People were busy or out of town, so they crosslogged each others accounts for professions. Then one day, one of the guys looted all his guildmates enchants, transfered them to another, hidden account, left guild and left everyone out to dry. GG.
I hope most people aren't like these ********. I know several thousand nice people on neverwinter, but unless you are in a moderated chat or friend of a friend, why should I trust you?
My eperience is that people are nice to each other unless there is AD involved. Once it's about AD, maybe most people aren't ********. I hope, but there are enough ******** out there we have to be cautious to protect ourselves.
Say it's a big ticket item, 500K +, of course i would be uspet if i didn't get to roll on it. That's a good amount of AD for me. When there is that much AD involved saying "i need this item to use" means "i need this item to sell and i will exploit another group to get it from the chest."
I know that's not very trusting of the community in general, but if we don't have some sort of relationship, I have a very real concern that i am going to get assraped.
Incorrect, it is in fact you who are saying that the entire player-base should follow a system created by greedy players on a whim, not use what's been given to us in game to upgrade our gear. Go eat something, your blood sugar is low.
Wrong.
Not the entire playerbase should follow that. People group up and the group decides how they would run it.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
If you need and wear an armour piece that's boe, you're wasting one of the little valuable items in the game. If you want to do it then greed on your standard greed runs. Everyone else had to get it from the chest which has reasonable chances and didn't rely on rng like it used to for old timers. I greeded my 1.2m bracers I wanted on my warlock. Doing otherwise is greedy by thinking your time is worth more than those that helped you. Unless in certain circumstances, I'm not here to help you gear up and take the loot for yourself. I'm here for an equal short of everything like everyone else. Sometimes it took a while to get a group for dungeons and that would only be harder if you only wanted a need party.
Comments
Need - Item is needed for an upgrade, marginal or not
Greed - I'm gonna sell this item
And the dungeon took, what, 30 minutes? You're upset you lost 30 minutes of time potentially making new friends, or helping out your fellow man? Shame on you.
LOL I grew up playing AD&D from the time I was 8. and it was the same then, greed.... If my character needed an item in the end loot then that was counted as part of my "share" of the collected loot. however that option isn't in this game so kinda makes that idea moot.
But seriously, If your a new player and looking to get some help getting geared. Wicked Vendetta guild is recruiting send me a tell or mail in game ( @Bloodyhell69 ) we enjoy the game and helping new players to get through it. We're not a big guild, but we're growing and we make time for our new members.
If someone in party in my party would roll Need on an epic class item that isnt BoP, then would rub it in saying "Good job, thanx for the item" - I would concider them sarcastic ninjas, put them on ignore list to make sure I never invite/get invited by them to the same party
Well they are selfish there is no other way to put it. 20% chance for everyone to win the loot is fair. Ironically Greed runs are fair (despite its namesake).
People who think putting the needs of 1 above the other party members is not a greedy perspective are flat-out ignorant of what the term greed means.
Hey man, I always say thank you and grow my friends list too, honestly.
When I was gearing up my SW we did some greed all runs and i got my gear from the chest.
If you see my guides, i put a lot of effort into helping people too. I work really hard on that, so I don't think i'm an <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> either.
I've just had a lot of bad experiences on this topic, had things go very very wrong. Guild broken in two, people yelling and screaming on raidcall, endless arguments, and since i was guild leader all those problems became my problems. I took a 5 month break because I was sick and tired of dealing with that bull****.
This is why I always always always ask loot rolls before the run, at the campfire. Normally i assume greed all and double check.
Now say it's VT or MC or something, people will say "i really need this BOP item, i'm going to need on it if it drops." Sure, I don't care, no one cares! That's fine.
But say we run karrundax, and the SW needs on the AD braces, worth half a million AD that are BOE. The rest of the team is there to sell those braces. Now of course, the new SW could get it from the chest, or he could run it again and get it quickly, and i bet the rest of the team would be fine running it for him! So we greed on the BOE stuff and everyone has a fair shot at the 500k AD, that's fine and dandy with me.
What i don't understand is taking a BOE item, which everyone wants to sell, when you could get the BOP item to use from the chest. THAT'S what i think is selfish. It bothers me a lot. Want me to run karrundax ten times with you, because we are friends and you need your gloves, ok, fine, no problem. Want to ninja the item everyone else wants to sell? I don't see how that's inconsiderate.
I'm wondering if you and i are just very touchy on this subject and misunderstood each other. I got a bit inflamed on it because I remember people who were friends and played together all the time literally split into two camps, each thought each other were destible selfish people, and we all stopped playing together over this very issue. I wish people could just roll with it, but humans aren't like that.
Anyway, i just want to hear your take on the BOE/BOP loot. I apologize for overreacting, I've had some bad history, and honestly i miss my friends.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Quite honestly, I would probably have this reaction.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
You "needed" what you can from a dungeon. Do you just never go back to that dungeon again?
If you do go back to that dungeon and the same item drops, do you still need on it because it is class specific?
If you don't ever go back to that dungeon, then how does that help newer geared players?
You got yours , so no reason to go back?
For the third and final time.
GREED=20% chance for EVERYONE in party to get item
NEED=only you get that item (if your only one of that class, or only one who hit need) nobody else can get it.
In the real world, the guy who picks, "Only I get a chance at the item." is the greedy one.
No amount of "but he needs it so you're the greedy one" logic can refute that.
You need gear, I need AD for gear. Putting your needs above mine is GREED pure and simple.
..and thats why needers get booted.
And the entitlement generation strikes again!
I'm sorry to have to inform you, but you are unaware of how the system in place works. A group aka a team is a group of people working together to complete a goal. That goal is actually to complete the dungeon not get loot at the end. That is the +1 for completing for that very special snowflake who the loot is for. Again, that 1 person is not being selfish if they actually can wear the item in question and it is an upgrade, like someone previously posted, marginal or not.
And to help you understand the definition of greed:
greed
ɡrēd/
noun
noun: greed
intense and selfish desire for something, especially wealth, power, or food.
That one person that is pressing Need for an item is in fact not being greedy. And to help you understand what a need is:
need
nēd/
verb
1.
require (something) because it is essential or very important.
2.
expressing necessity or obligation.
By you saying that 1 person is being greedy, you are trying to impose your own greed to someone else. If loot is so important to you, make some friends, run the dungeon, problem-solved. Don't under any circumstances use the queue.
When I was growing up can you believe we only had 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place and sometimes the rest of the kids on the field wouldn't get anything but a "better luck next time" and a slap on the back? Crazy, I know!
It's like if things were all BOP. Players who had nothing they specifically needed for their character from an instance simply would not enter it unless it was for a good friend or in a socially tight-knit guild.
Also, since NW is a pay 2 be strong game, if one is not a heavy zen buyer, stuff like high rank enchantments, bags, vanity items or earning enough AD to start playing the market or craft profitably and get auto-income is earned primarily through greed runs.
It's been stated countless times. Better geared and experienced players are already effectively subsidizing less experienced players through their knowledge and largely superior performance, even when the BOE loot is statistically 20% split per person.
People talking about the higher geared more experienced players wanting to do greed runs being entitled have their heads up their ***. They are the entitled ones, who expect to get a statistically way higher reward for doing the run merely because they do not already have the gear that can drop as BOE.
This isn't a socialist state where those worse off get subsidized by those better off so that people can generally live decent lives, with the crime rate being generally lower due to social safety nets (and even then, they aren't entitled. it is a nationally organized charity for which they should be thankful). This is a video game. You don't "need" that item any more than the rest of the party needs what they would buy in game for the sell price AD. Players are individuals, who spend their time with actual goals in mind. Those goals generally don't involve running an instance for the 40th time so a stranger will simply take the only things of value that drops.
When my guild was active, we struggled with drama before standardizing loot rules, and in the end we ended up on a greed-split system with a discount if someone wanted to buy out the others for the item, because before that, things would get unfair and skewed and some experienced players would become reluctant to PVE at all.
Some would start arguing that they should be able to need for their lvl 60 alts, which felt exploitative against people with few lvl 60s and everything was just chaos. The greed-split-buyout system was the only truly functional system.
Often, when people would want to buy out, their more close friends in the guild would tell them that they didn't need to pay their share, so that they only had to buy out 3 people's share, or 2 people's share, so that people could be generous as individuals through the buyout system. Pressuring others to not take their share was quickly "outlawed" due to its toxic effects, with it explicitly having to come form individual initiatives for generosity.
That's how a system feels emotionally right. When one can be generous when one wants, or take one's fair 20% share or rollchance when one wants.
Welcome back ignorance! Oh how I love arguing with these need-proponents!
Everyone gets a 20% chance at the loot. Everyone participated in the dungeon. Everyone wants to get something out of the dungeon run and not be a feeder for the progression of other players.
How the system works? You go on your little need runs, while the rest of the community goes on greed runs. If you need in a greed run, I do hope someone kicks you for being selfish. And please, nobody really needs anything in a videogame. Nobody will starve to death if they don't get their mainhand. Everyone is playing this VIDEOGAME to get VIRTUAL ITEMS.
Don't put the needs of 1 player above the others. Flaws in your logic everywhere.
It's been posted several times by several people ad naseaum that they will go back and help lower geared people get loot and not hit the need button, they will in fact hit the greed button.
This system is based on honor, a virtue a lot of the community seems to be lacking it seems.
+1 /10 char
That's how i feel too.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Maybe you should try reading all the way through, cause if you got to the bottom of my post you would have read this, here I copied and pasted so it's easier for you.
"When I was growing up can you believe we only had 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place and sometimes the rest of the kids on the field wouldn't get anything but a "better luck next time" and a slap on the back? Crazy, I know!"
Sometimes you go into a dungeon and get nothing, sometimes you get something you can sale. RNG is RNG. if you're old enough to go to Las Vegas, do you walk into a casino and demand they give you equal odds to win, after all, everyone there is there to win, so you all deserve equal odds, right?
So RNG and RNG. Why does the new player have to get a bigger piece of the pie then? Why can't EVERY player be subjected to the same 20% RNG?
You really aren't making a lot of sense at the moment. Put the vodka down first and come back to me.
Flawed metaphor is flawed.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
I seem to be making sense to anyone with a brain on the subject, this isn't a new system invented by Cryptic only for Neverwinter. and it's not "RNG and RNG", it's RNG is RNG, before you try to say I'm drunk, make sure you're not talking like a drunken sailor yourself there, cowboy.
Now, again, for the simple-minded folk who just can understand how one plus one equals two. Need, Greed, Pass system is a system as old as MMOs themselves. If you need the item, no matter how marginal of an upgrade for you, need away. If you are just going to sale the item, press Greed, why, you ask, because you are taking that item from a place of greed, if you don't want the item at all, because it's clogging up your bags, press pass.
I"m sorry you feel that you are entitled to something, here's a news flash, you're not. When you queue for that dungeon, you are effectively saying to yourself, I'm going in there for this item or that item that will upgrade my gear. You should not be going into that dungeon saying, what can I take from someone else to sale on the AH.
I hope that was clear enough for ya, sparky.
Well yes which is why I did not get it exactly.
There is a blanket odd system per game, yes. But depending on how many people are at that table, your odds change. I"m not going to go through the numbers with you, since by your post it tells me that you're not old enough to gamble.
That has to be the most asinine metaphor I have ever seen, in vegas rules are agreed upon and enforced, all people know them and all people are subject to them yet you are the one arguing that people are not obeying your personal definition of the rules - in your metaphor its actually you demanding that people apply your belief set.
Times have changed, adapt or be left behind as irrelevant
And the Strawman of the Year award goes to...
Also, that whole thing about, "well what if other people want items for their alts" argument is kind of messed up to me. If you want the item on your alt, maybe you should be... Oh I don't know... PLAYing that alt instead of using the character you're currently on? If you WANT caster items, then make/play a caster. If you want rogue items, then make/play a rogue. Don't be running around on your current character and playing through dungeons just for items for your alts. That'd just be plain... "GREEDY" on your part.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"If you're going to ride my HAMSTER... At least pull my hair"
Taking the trash out, one badguy at a time.
"Satisfaction guaranteed or twice your trash back."
What may be considered a waste to you, is not a waste to that person that is actually wearing it. Again, if you're not here to help other players gear up, then don't queue. Simple, discussion over. Use that channel the devs have given you called...Looking for Group, but don't queue for a dungeon and expect someone to follow the same player-created rule sets as you.
Here's a news flash for all you greeders, if Cryptic wanted dungeon runs to be as you say they should be, they would not have the N,G,P system in place.
You are greedy. Is that clear enough for ya , Sparky?
Incorrect, it is in fact you who are saying that the entire player-base should follow a system created by greedy players on a whim, not use what's been given to us in game to upgrade our gear. Go eat something, your blood sugar is low.
Oh right, because that's what I said, maybe if you read all of my posts in context that is clearly not what I'm saying, nice try though.
1) Need on loot when we said greed before - gets booted and ignored.
2) Plays very poorly and seems intent on wiping the party
3) Does #2 then insults and blames other people for it.
4) Once i was trading a B. Bile for a P.Vorpal, back when that was even. I spent days and days in PE. one guy was selling aranea. some other guy was selling the vorpal. Vorpal guy wanted aranea, so i traded my bile for the aranea, the vorpal guy logged off. Same guy crossboxing. I lost 2-3M AD on that.
I was probably an idiot too, so it's partially my fault.
I remember once I was in PK, when i was new. I said "oh, never seen a tiefling GF before" guy said "GTFO" and booted me.
Most PUGS have been full of idiots and ********. I simply don't PUG anymore. If I have to use LFG i will either do dailies or log because I don't like being treated so poorly.
Oh, also we had two friends in my guild. They were very close, so they formed their own guild. People were busy or out of town, so they crosslogged each others accounts for professions. Then one day, one of the guys looted all his guildmates enchants, transfered them to another, hidden account, left guild and left everyone out to dry. GG.
I hope most people aren't like these ********. I know several thousand nice people on neverwinter, but unless you are in a moderated chat or friend of a friend, why should I trust you?
My eperience is that people are nice to each other unless there is AD involved. Once it's about AD, maybe most people aren't ********. I hope, but there are enough ******** out there we have to be cautious to protect ourselves.
Say it's a big ticket item, 500K +, of course i would be uspet if i didn't get to roll on it. That's a good amount of AD for me. When there is that much AD involved saying "i need this item to use" means "i need this item to sell and i will exploit another group to get it from the chest."
I know that's not very trusting of the community in general, but if we don't have some sort of relationship, I have a very real concern that i am going to get assraped.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Again, never said that, try reading the entire thread before posting, it will do wonders for you.
Wrong.
Not the entire playerbase should follow that. People group up and the group decides how they would run it.
+1 /10 char
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know