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Game Model: Do you want players to quit after gearing up?
abecassis
Member Posts: 255 Bounty Hunter
This is not a bashing thread or whatever.
Im just interessted in the view of the players/developer on what the game model really is.
As of today, all there is to it is to gear up your character really. After doing all the dungeons, gearing up and maxing out my toons with boons, artifacts, enchants and gear, i have nothing left to do. I can run the same dungeons again, but why would i when i already have the gear from them. I can do PvP again, but why would i when the gap between geared players and ungeared players are insanely big, a good match only comes along once in a lifetime.
So what is really neverwinters game model? Where is the endgame for maxed out players. Im really not hoping for an answer that they only want you money, make you quit so you make room for new players. I hoping for some answers that you want the game to advance in some way. But what way? PvP is left for dead months ago. And PvE is no point anymore.
I already saw this problem a year ago, but i though the game is new OK, some things will come along, some new content maybe, some challenging dungeons or whatever. But the only "new" content so far is a new skrimrish and a shorter dungeon, only to gear up your character even more by spending AD. Dungeons are as challenging as they were a year ago, but our characters are 10x times stronger now. Its gets kinda boring.
I dont get it. looking aside constantly gearing up and spending millions of AD. What else is there to do when you have already done that?
Im just interessted in the view of the players/developer on what the game model really is.
As of today, all there is to it is to gear up your character really. After doing all the dungeons, gearing up and maxing out my toons with boons, artifacts, enchants and gear, i have nothing left to do. I can run the same dungeons again, but why would i when i already have the gear from them. I can do PvP again, but why would i when the gap between geared players and ungeared players are insanely big, a good match only comes along once in a lifetime.
So what is really neverwinters game model? Where is the endgame for maxed out players. Im really not hoping for an answer that they only want you money, make you quit so you make room for new players. I hoping for some answers that you want the game to advance in some way. But what way? PvP is left for dead months ago. And PvE is no point anymore.
I already saw this problem a year ago, but i though the game is new OK, some things will come along, some new content maybe, some challenging dungeons or whatever. But the only "new" content so far is a new skrimrish and a shorter dungeon, only to gear up your character even more by spending AD. Dungeons are as challenging as they were a year ago, but our characters are 10x times stronger now. Its gets kinda boring.
I dont get it. looking aside constantly gearing up and spending millions of AD. What else is there to do when you have already done that?
Dr. Phil
Post edited by abecassis on
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Open world PVP is dead.
Dungeons rewards are RNG based so skipping that nonesense.
PVP still only has the 2 maps and single mode.
Heroic encounters is hitting the dragon once then watching some TV and afk.
1)Take a break come back in a few months.
2) Delete one and start over.
This is all I can offer.
" I killed the boss with my rank 10 / perfects" is less of a challenge than "I killed the boss with my bare hands".
Growth pattern? I mean its available for us to gear up within a month of a new module. What do you suggest we do while waiting? Jumping arround in PE? Do you suggest we wait for cryptic to release new content? And then gear up ? Because then we would all still be stuck at Mod1 since dungeons has not gotten anymore challenging after that
haha wth. is this what we have to do to keep the game fun and challenging? this is your idea of a game model?
"dont you dare gear up your character to maximum availible!"
"everything will get super boring if you do"
I think Cryptic was expecting people to take their time and explore the actual game all the way through and then make another character to do it again on an all new class. Most people aren't interested in that though. They wanna grind to level cap as quickly as possible and start doing max level dungeons.
Somewhere along the way, Cryptic (for whatever reasons) lost sight of that and focused their energy and resources on developing new dungeons and events. This development can never keep up with hardcore gamers (we all know this lesson from playing other MMOs for the last decade). The foundry was supposed to be continually updated/tweaked so that the GAMERS themselves could create new content and have a chance of outpacing the hardcore gamers and keep them engaged in Neverwinter.
just my 2AD
P.S. Since this is the case, and I can't blame any one person in particular, I will settle with leaving soon and coming back to Neverwinter much later (maybe the new WoW expansion in the meantime).
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There just isn't much at the moment. Write a foundry?
The models are often based on "churn". I know that isn't the answer you want but it is the reality.
This "End Game" notion has no place in PvE-focused MMORPGs, in my opinion. I still haven't found this mythical end game in Neverwinter. Everytime I think I may see a notion of such on the horizon, a new Module was released. I'd say Cryptic is doing just fine on content. The problem, in my opinion, is the relatively-small number of players blowing through such and then complaining very vocally about it.
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Agree with everything you said, however Ive been thinking about this and I think if the DEVs were willing to take player direction, this could turn the game around for the better.
Boons need a nerf TBH. All the +250 boons should be cut to +100 stats. The new +200 boons also dropped to +100.
The Final "tier" rewards should also be cut in half. Example: Sharandar 10% stamina gain cut to 5%. ETC.
Classes need complete over-haul.
Take the 5 man T1/T2 PVE dungeons and make 10 man version of them with T3/T4 armor.
Take the RP system, turn it on its head so R10s give a TON of RP - so its worth upgrading to refine.
Release new PVP MODES and MAPS.
DONE.
Not really, the foundry doesn't scale with gear so if you are wearing more the white quality items with no enchants, it's a faceroll.
It CAN be made to though - some Foundry quests have a hard or nightmare mode.
It's true foundry could use some tougher mobs, but you still can scale the difficulty. And, what's more important, you can make really enjoyable quests based not on fights, but on story, puzzles or roleplaying.
The problem is 1. lack of incentive to play foundry and 2. It needs a serious update. You don't even have HR outfits there, not to mention all that bugs.
You have a very healthy way of playing Neverwinter - one encouraged by the devs' progression model for this game (multiple max level characters).
Some people have another, but just as legitimate, way of playing - they max out (1) character. They see this character as their avatar. In PnP D&D, you did something very similar for months or years, and then moved on to a different character when a new edition of the ruleset came out, or for other reasons. For these people, the pace of development isn't quite enough I suppose. The new dungeon is only 15 minutes long from what I've read. The artifact weapon and belt are the only true upgrades that count as progression, and you need an obscene amount of grinding in order to get them to the "upgrade" level through refining.
Basically, the new endgame isn't as fun here as it is in other MMOs that require you to learn multiple strategies for multiple dungeons and boss fights. Here in neverwinter, we learn (1) new, short dungeon, 1 'skirmish', and the rest is grind the left mouse button away from all the click-drag-click you must do in the refining window.
Had the Foundry been continually updated with more than copy-paste sets from module content, then we may have an alternative end-game that is actually better than other MMOs currently in play.
I say the Devs do this: complete whatever Module/dungeons/events you are already working on, and devote all your other resources to upgrading the foundry tools. Give a man the tools to properly fish, and you will have facilitated an entire fishing village.
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That's about it.
Problem is you don't need to learn even 1 dungeon/skirmish, they are too easy to have anything to learn in it.
How easy?
Well, I pugged epic LoL (which indeed is just 15 minutes, just like a skirmish...) with my CW. It's not BiS, it's built for PvP, and I don't have either legendary belt or weapon.
We wiped once.
And we almost wiped twice. From 50% or so of the boss, I remained alone.
And I killed the "mean" dragon, with my squish CW, ALONE.
At that point the dragon felt to me more like a small kitty.
I have no doubt whatsoever I can solo it with my HR too and most people from my friends list will solo the biggest and baddest boss in Neverwinter as well.
To me, this is incredibly worrying and says a lot about the "challenges" this game offers.
Even more worrying is the fact that the bosses, including the last one, have NO LOOT (some people said that extremely rare, the last boss will drop something). All the loot is from the chests at the end.
A very sad situation.
Well the thing is that all of the content since mod 1 has been done by me because it was the only content we had rather than me wanting to do it. The content before mod 1 was me grinding dungeons so that I can progress and it was something to enjoy doing and it felt good to actually progress. Now there is a clear cut off point where a lot of the stuff may just be junk for you, especially the armour sets. I didn't need to rely on boring leadership toons and ah investing to make AD then. *sigh*. Things went downhill so much for the players since then.
- Boons: Part of the issue with increasing stats so much is with the fairly low soft caps and diminishing returns it starts forcing more and more players into the same builds. In the past when the game first hit OB a large part of the fun was the tradeoff between stats. Now there is no such tradeoff.
So unless they are going to re-create the stat system (which I am in favor of BTW - no diminishing returns, all stats should work like power but they would need to severely decrease effectiveness to allow true "choice") the boons are PART of the issue, in giving players alot of freedom in stat choice aside from gear.
- Class overhaul There have been so many nerfs/buffs its really landed classes in a bad spot... ALOT needs changing here, I wont go into it.
- New tier gear THis is primarily because the PVE community needs harder dungeons. Instead of them contuninuing to fail with their version of new skirmishes and dungeons, which only give us two new PVE avenues. TO RE-DO the old T1 dungeons for 10 man versions. Then as a reward for 10 man dungeons, take the old T1/T2 gear and make a T3 version. Same stats as the base, new Set bonuses that are unique. This isnt even a big deal considering blackice and draconic gear. Maybe the T3 BIG improvement would be the overload slots on the gear along with attractive stats.
- Refining My issue with refining is it REALLY gives incentive for bots. So players are best suited to buy rank 4s and use those, or in belts/weapons players buy the blue gear rather than giving incentive to farm epics. So doubling it sounds great (even though this furthers the divide you mentioned) but giving ALOT more RP for epics would work too. Basically the BEST way to refine SHOULD be Epics and the highest rank enchant you cna get... For instance. Putting a Rank 10 into an artifact should give ATLEAST the equivalent of rank 4s it takes to MAKE a rank 10.
- PVP They need to make ALL consumables not work in PVP nor affect your character in PVP. They need to rework their crappy ELO system, its actually not ELO but matchmaking that is broken(alot of suggestions have been made). They need to release new PVP game MODES. An "OddBall" or "Murderball" would work perfectly on the same maps we have now. A cool spin NW could even put on it, is you pick up the "ball" at the middle node, and points tick for your team ONLY when you hold the ball on one of the node locations: Home/Mid/Far - this puts emphasis on the nodes again, lets you use the SAME maps we have now, with just a different twist.
If they re-worked Matchmaking and put this new PVP TYPE into the game, that would do ALOT for PVP, ALOT!
New 10 man dungeons and T3 gear would do ALOT for the PVE community.
Class overhaul would make classes fun again.
RP lessens the pointless grind there, it honestly just creates a MASSIVE divide between the rich and poor. Legendary shouldnt have been an RP thing but a LOW chance of random drops from the dungeon and skirmish, and the reward was the legendary equip. NOT a green artifact weapon you spend millions on RP for to get..... Shouldnt be an AD game, should be a PLAY thing.
There are a lot of untested and unique builds that can be created in the game. Some may be less optimal than the others but it may be just the thing that could bring life back to your end-game characters.
I agree when there are many options of build variety. But there are not alot currently. There used to be alot more because players had to choose which stats to have, stack, and what would work best with certain builds.
Now a days though there is less of a "trade off" and more of "have everything" so the builds become MUCH less about stats/gear and more about powers/skills/feats
The issue with THAT is that alot of the builds (like CW) have had their hand FORCED because of all the nerfs/changes and ontop of that, turned the class into a MUCH less "skill required" thing.
There is also no avenue for player to appropriately test these builds once they theory them. PVE is a joke - its super easy to PUG the "hardest content" and PVP is a joke due to the horrible matchmaking system.
If they want to, there is ALOT they can do to correct the wrongs here.
As detailed above and previously:
1) Boons - reduce boons to +100 of each stat and cut in HALF the things LIKE 10% stamina regen (sharandar capstone). This brings back limitations for builds because stats become more scarce - less of a chance to softcap everything.
2) Class Overhaul - Again, ALOT can be said about this. So I wont get into it.
3) New PVE dungeons and Tier gear - instead of NEW BAD dungeons, just redo the old ones, make them 10 man raids with magic immune monsters, physical immune monsters, un-controllable monsters, Monsters that HIT for 40-50k+ Making them truly require tanks/healers/skill to play against. ETC. With this, T3 gear with overload slots, brings back the old T1/T2 armor we loved. An additional idea here could be to create tenacity "re-inforcement kits" to allow players to put tenacity on PVE gear if they chose.
4) Re-fining - is a joke.
5) PVP needs new maps and gamtypes. Seriously, its getting old. Matchmaking is a joke. Its not ELO thats broken its the way they use ELO. SAME two maps are stale, same domination play is stale.........
If you want people to excel at theory craft, there had to be a REASON and AVENUES to express that theory craft. Once you theory a cool new build then what? Run around in PE?
What about CONTENT!?!?
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