Im not sure what your getting at, noone is asking for a gank fest, thats what is WRONG with the current model.
Well if you force everyone to be in only one or two PVP instances, here's what will happen:
One side will have all of the elite PVP guilds.
The other side will have the suckers, scrubs and newbs.
And it will be a gankfest.
And then, two weeks later when the suckers, scrubs and newbs wise up and stop going to Open World PVP, you will be right back here complaining how "Open World PVP is dead".
For whatever reason, the "elite PVP guilds" just tend not to fight each other. We see this when most, if not all, join the Luskan side for GG; and most, if not all, join the AB side for IWD. So I'm skeptical that there will be anything resembling balanced chaotic PVP fights under your model of Open World PVP.
But my whole point here is that RIGHT NOW you CAN have "big pvp battles", if you choose. Cryptic has given you the tools to organize such a thing if you wish. (It could be made more user friendly to do so, admittedly, but the tools do exist.) It wasn't that long ago that someone here on the forums was trying to organize some sort of PVP tournament in IWD, I think. Why isn't that happening right now? Is it just a lack of effort among the PVP guilds to organize such a thing?
Your model would force everyone to participate in Open World PVP under your terms. The status quo means that you are able to participate in Open World PVP under a variety of different terms, all the way from simple 1v1 dueling to big epic battles. I prefer the more open-ended approach. Your approach is more susceptible to abuse, I believe.
There's a campaign, there's quests, there's rewards
More ice, a belt that can be got from the skirmish or AH aren't enticing rewards. To gt the artifact requires effort and really that's better off doing from gg or domination where you get glory, ad from dailies, grym coins and more useful campaign rewards. The iwd daily doesn't grant anything of use, it could at least give skrimshaw or something so there's no real reason to do it. Opvp is imba which basically promotes people to gang up on easy prey and if you're a victim of that you have to pay for injury kits so why bother contributing. Not only that but the pvp HE was broken for a long time which could've also contributed to dead opvp.
As of today, all there is to it is to gear up your character really. After doing all the dungeons, gearing up and maxing out my toons with boons, artifacts, enchants and gear, i have nothing left to do. I can run the same dungeons again, but why would i when i already have the gear from them. I can do PvP again, but why would i when the gap between geared players and ungeared players are insanely big, a good match only comes along once in a lifetime.
You could always play foundry quests. Sure, at endgame, geared up with purples, there will be NO gear in the loot that can match what you have; but there is a never-ending supply of things for you to DO. You can run foundry campaigns for longer storylines, and enjoy playing your character in a variety of situations. Live the life of an adventurer! The playthrough is the most fun part anyway.
You could always play foundry quests. Sure, at endgame, geared up with purples, there will be NO gear in the loot that can match what you have; but there is a never-ending supply of things for you to DO. You can run foundry campaigns for longer storylines, and enjoy playing your character in a variety of situations. Live the life of an adventurer! The playthrough is the most fun part anyway.
I'd agree with this except for one problem, as you put it at endgame, geared up with purples, there will be NO challenge either. Foundry quests at that point are like challenging first graders to a boxing match as a proffesional boxer.
Well if you force everyone to be in only one or two PVP instances, here's what will happen:
One side will have all of the elite PVP guilds.
The other side will have the suckers, scrubs and newbs.
And it will be a gankfest.
And then, two weeks later when the suckers, scrubs and newbs wise up and stop going to Open World PVP, you will be right back here complaining how "Open World PVP is dead".
For whatever reason, the "elite PVP guilds" just tend not to fight each other. We see this when most, if not all, join the Luskan side for GG; and most, if not all, join the AB side for IWD. So I'm skeptical that there will be anything resembling balanced chaotic PVP fights under your model of Open World PVP.
But my whole point here is that RIGHT NOW you CAN have "big pvp battles", if you choose. Cryptic has given you the tools to organize such a thing if you wish. (It could be made more user friendly to do so, admittedly, but the tools do exist.) It wasn't that long ago that someone here on the forums was trying to organize some sort of PVP tournament in IWD, I think. Why isn't that happening right now? Is it just a lack of effort among the PVP guilds to organize such a thing?
Your model would force everyone to participate in Open World PVP under your terms. The status quo means that you are able to participate in Open World PVP under a variety of different terms, all the way from simple 1v1 dueling to big epic battles. I prefer the more open-ended approach. Your approach is more susceptible to abuse, I believe.
Maybe you know this but my idea/view is to let the PVE players have the majority of instance #s, so say 1-15 are all PVE (entered the same way they are now) with PVP removed. BUT! If someone WANTS to enter a PVP zone, they talk to the PVP "quest guy" for each faction who will let them zone into a PVP only version of the instance. (PVP active everywhere on he map).
It seems you have a big opinion on this but dont classify yourself as being part of the "big pvp guilds". Again noone is FORCING anyone to go into the PVP instances, you actually have to go out of your way to do this. These instances FORCE even number of players into each instance.
Why do PVP guilds NOT arrange big battles now? Its too much work.
Its hard to arrange fair matches, enforce no companions, no matchamking no pots, and no assurance pugs wont come and ruin it.
Know how many times Ive tried to arrange 1v1s in OW? Over 50% of the time a random PUG comes up halfway through the match and we have to deal with him. Or worse, MORE than 1 comes and then one of us keeps trying to type out what were doing.
Whenever we find out players are in OW pvp, our guild rallies, weve even tried to set it up - actually in its current form wed just crash the server.
All that said, will it be SOME pug stomp - sure. What happens when ONE guild dominates all day long? They get bored and do something else. I think this would be MUCH more balanced than you think. Runescape had a "wild" that wasnt dominated by just one guild or a few "hardcore PVP guilds" it was large enough and random enough to avoid that.
This system would be the same way.
Again do the tools exist? Sure I guess in a WAY, but there is no way to set that up without interruption and its too hard to police,enforce. Its almost like saying we have the ability to do full guild 20vs20 in GG. Can we? Its plausible but its so unlikely to get 4 teams on each side to pop at the same time, its akin to that.
The MAIN issue with OW PVP right now:
1) Too spread out - no reason to do OW PVP.
2) Companions.
3) NO timer on Domination nor reason to do it.
4) Encroachment of PUGs.
Instance PVPs wont fix the encorachment issue, players dont JUST want "scheduled" guild versus guild battles. I know I personally want to roll around in a zone solo or duo and be able to fight other groups of players. I want RANDOM pvp.
5v5 Dom is great, but its too "scheduled" or "set". Its about domination, not kills. I want to roam an instance and battle players. without a "structure".
Why do you queue for PVP Domination? Do you (still) do it for the glory?
I used to do it for the profound set, and then the pvp dailies, but it got too repetitive doing dominations and i slowly started losing interest. Its been about 2 months I went to lv60 pvp about 5-7 times at most.
Now I am just growing my warlock which is in lv 50's now and since I am the pvp type I mostly level it up through pvp, as long as its gaining levels I am fine, but what after that? I would still say pvp needs alot of improvement.
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About the full pvp zone topic, what if its made such that the first person entering map would be AB and the next one is TT. Might address the 20v5 issue at your regular domination encounters as well and no more ganging up.
To me, the end game occurs after you have all the best gear.
Then you can make your imagination a reality, and test your best build against the best on the server.
I don't know what this does for you, but it has a lot of appeal and is great fun for me.
Maybe you know this but my idea/view is to let the PVE players have the majority of instance #s, so say 1-15 are all PVE (entered the same way they are now) with PVP removed. BUT! If someone WANTS to enter a PVP zone, they talk to the PVP "quest guy" for each faction who will let them zone into a PVP only version of the instance. (PVP active everywhere on he map).
It seems you have a big opinion on this but dont classify yourself as being part of the "big pvp guilds". Again noone is FORCING anyone to go into the PVP instances, you actually have to go out of your way to do this. These instances FORCE even number of players into each instance.
Why do PVP guilds NOT arrange big battles now? Its too much work.
Its hard to arrange fair matches, enforce no companions, no matchamking no pots, and no assurance pugs wont come and ruin it.
Know how many times Ive tried to arrange 1v1s in OW? Over 50% of the time a random PUG comes up halfway through the match and we have to deal with him. Or worse, MORE than 1 comes and then one of us keeps trying to type out what were doing.
Whenever we find out players are in OW pvp, our guild rallies, weve even tried to set it up - actually in its current form wed just crash the server.
All that said, will it be SOME pug stomp - sure. What happens when ONE guild dominates all day long? They get bored and do something else. I think this would be MUCH more balanced than you think. Runescape had a "wild" that wasnt dominated by just one guild or a few "hardcore PVP guilds" it was large enough and random enough to avoid that.
This system would be the same way.
Again do the tools exist? Sure I guess in a WAY, but there is no way to set that up without interruption and its too hard to police,enforce. Its almost like saying we have the ability to do full guild 20vs20 in GG. Can we? Its plausible but its so unlikely to get 4 teams on each side to pop at the same time, its akin to that.
The MAIN issue with OW PVP right now:
1) Too spread out - no reason to do OW PVP.
2) Companions.
3) NO timer on Domination nor reason to do it.
4) Encroachment of PUGs.
Instance PVPs wont fix the encorachment issue, players dont JUST want "scheduled" guild versus guild battles. I know I personally want to roll around in a zone solo or duo and be able to fight other groups of players. I want RANDOM pvp.
5v5 Dom is great, but its too "scheduled" or "set". Its about domination, not kills. I want to roam an instance and battle players. without a "structure".
I know more players want this too
Agreed with a lot of your points. Some of it are the same issues I brought up countless times on the forums. Hoping the devs would read it and get a clue but they probably are too busy working on more dailies for module 5. Yay
I'd agree with this except for one problem, as you put it at endgame, geared up with purples, there will be NO challenge either. Foundry quests at that point are like challenging first graders to a boxing match as a proffesional boxer.
Hmm, that's true. More interesting than the same thing over & over, but no challenge. Perhaps the Foundry should incorporate Gear Score when scaling content.
Hmm, that's true. More interesting than the same thing over & over, but no challenge. Perhaps the Foundry should incorporate Gear Score when scaling content.
It's not just that, but the Foundry lacks the tools for polished, professional endgame content.
What do I mean?
- lack of rewards. This is essential for endgame in MMOs. You cannot have one without the other
- lack of challenge/lack of boss fights. Can you blane the authors? cryptic them selves are unable to come with real boss mechanics after 4 modules
- lack of involved, epic storylines. Each foundry I played I felt like falling asleep. Same mobs from the campaign, same type of generic stories. Good story examples: Bioware games, creating NPCs you care about etc.
Real endgame content requires at least a team of dedicated, experienced game designers. A single author that does stuff in his spare time cannot come close.
Sorry.
It is not the fault of Foundry authors. They do not have the needed resources to create endgame.
The problem is that MoD 1, MoD 2 and MoD 3 didn't bring anything harder than DV or CN, if they had raised the level of difficulty properly maybe now we would have one or two difficult dungeon.
Honestly the Developers missed a HUGE opportunity in this game with Foundry. I have played some AMAZING foundry dungeons, not from "monster" or "encounter" difficulties, but just pure layout and design, it was beautiful.
I feel like what they SHOULD have done (might be too late now) is throw contests for players to build a dungeon for say 2 weeks, then for 2 weeks its hosted in a special event, the most popular dungeon gets the DEVs review and adjustment and addition to the game.
They also could have done this with PVP maps. Players make a map, they enable it for use via the foundry and the most popular map gets added to the game (after DEV review).
Then you create a "class advocate" system(not the one proposed) and you take say 3 players for each class and have a DEV Q/A with the Advocates about class balance. Each week, one class gets a "review" and "adjustment" from DEVs, so that classes will always be kept up to date and major bugs squashed and major balance issues addressed.
Now youve taken DEV time away from PVE dungeons, PVP maps, and Class balance as a normal day to day activity and they can focus on modules, and other fun things that players have asked for.
The STRONGEST/BEST asset a game has is its player base, who PLAY the game much much more than the DEVs spend even developing AND playing it. If they ever wake up and realize this, the game would take off like CRAZY!
The combat in this game was and has been fun (less so the last module) but they could easily hone that with the above player base helping the majority of content.
They could even use their time then to create BIG expansions that include 10 man dungeons as well... It opens ALOT of doors.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
Honestly the Developers missed a HUGE opportunity in this game with Foundry. I have played some AMAZING foundry dungeons, not from "monster" or "encounter" difficulties, but just pure layout and design, it was beautiful.
I feel like what they SHOULD have done (might be too late now) is throw contests for players to build a dungeon for say 2 weeks, then for 2 weeks its hosted in a special event, the most popular dungeon gets the DEVs review and adjustment and addition to the game.
They also could have done this with PVP maps. Players make a map, they enable it for use via the foundry and the most popular map gets added to the game (after DEV review).
Then you create a "class advocate" system(not the one proposed) and you take say 3 players for each class and have a DEV Q/A with the Advocates about class balance. Each week, one class gets a "review" and "adjustment" from DEVs, so that classes will always be kept up to date and major bugs squashed and major balance issues addressed.
Now youve taken DEV time away from PVE dungeons, PVP maps, and Class balance as a normal day to day activity and they can focus on modules, and other fun things that players have asked for.
The STRONGEST/BEST asset a game has is its player base, who PLAY the game much much more than the DEVs spend even developing AND playing it. If they ever wake up and realize this, the game would take off like CRAZY!
The combat in this game was and has been fun (less so the last module) but they could easily hone that with the above player base helping the majority of content.
They could even use their time then to create BIG expansions that include 10 man dungeons as well... It opens ALOT of doors.
I pretty much agree with everything you said, with the exception of the 10-man dungeons. I would like them myself, but what I fear is that they will create even more of a divide in the game than we have now. As it is, every player can experience everything the game has to offer - even a casual player - sure, it will take a long time, but it is doable. This is even more true for something like 20+ man aids that have to be organized and carefully planned in advance. If you are not a member of a top guild, and able to play at certain times, you might never make it into one of those....this was in fact the main reason I stopped playing WoW several years ago. Neverwinter is not perfect, but it is a lot more casual-friendly in this respect.
I pretty much agree with everything you said, with the exception of the 10-man dungeons. I would like them myself, but what I fear is that they will create even more of a divide in the game than we have now. As it is, every player can experience everything the game has to offer - even a casual player - sure, it will take a long time, but it is doable. This is even more true for something like 20+ man aids that have to be organized and carefully planned in advance. If you are not a member of a top guild, and able to play at certain times, you might never make it into one of those....this was in fact the main reason I stopped playing WoW several years ago. Neverwinter is not perfect, but it is a lot more casual-friendly in this respect.
WoW, not all that long ago, introduced the Raid Finder, and then Flex-Raids. What that has done is effectively allowed all casuals to queue for the endgame raids in a manner very similar to Neverwinter's dungeon queue.
I loved Raidfinder and so did my wife. May go back to it eventually.
Fix the Foundry. A contest that features the best new Foundry, and then implements purple rewards for the last chest of that foundry (along with coupon drops and other stuff mentioned here) would go a long way to keep players here.
WoW, not all that long ago, introduced the Raid Finder, and then Flex-Raids. What that has done is effectively allowed all casuals to queue for the endgame raids in a manner very similar to Neverwinter's dungeon queue.
I loved Raidfinder and so did my wife. May go back to it eventually.
I can confirm LFR (Looking for Raid) worked extremely good for the casual in WoW. One could just queue up and in a few minutes you would be put in a faceroll type of raid with entry level purples. Was very good to experience the boss fights (with limited mechanics) and get gear for the Normal raid version (that could still be pugged yet required some skill, gear and experience).
The only skill-gated, hardcore content was the Heroic Raiding.
I pretty much agree with everything you said, with the exception of the 10-man dungeons. I would like them myself, but what I fear is that they will create even more of a divide in the game than we have now. As it is, every player can experience everything the game has to offer - even a casual player - sure, it will take a long time, but it is doable. This is even more true for something like 20+ man aids that have to be organized and carefully planned in advance. If you are not a member of a top guild, and able to play at certain times, you might never make it into one of those....this was in fact the main reason I stopped playing WoW several years ago. Neverwinter is not perfect, but it is a lot more casual-friendly in this respect.
I agree, which is why I think 20 man raids would be too much, esp for this game. But 10 man raids could definitely work!
I had an idea for the 10 mans:
- take the T1 dungeons make 10 man versions (re-cycles content, easy to do)
- take T1/T2 gear, create T3 gear that has overload slots (again, recycle old gear, beef up stats to T3 add overload)
- Make Lord Neverember give a quest each day for ONE specific 10 man dungeon (pits EVERYONE to farm the same dungeon that day - this is the new "module 5 or w.e daily)
- Create a PVE campaign (like the PVP one) that has you getting achievements in PVE dungeons. Examples: Kill 10 Heroic Bosses, Complete 10 runs with zero deaths, complete 10 -10 man dungeons ETC.
That ENTIRE thing is recycled content that would be fun AND drive alot of incentive to PVE without more "boons" and crapyp dailies to farm. Players would LOVE to farm T3 gear - even PVP ers.
Oh and Also, create a +Tenacity armor re-enforcement kit, so PVPers can farm PVE gear and use it if they want for PVP.
I agree, which is why I think 20 man raids would be too much, esp for this game. But 10 man raids could definitely work!
I had an idea for the 10 mans:
- take the T1 dungeons make 10 man versions (re-cycles content, easy to do)
- take T1/T2 gear, create T3 gear that has overload slots (again, recycle old gear, beef up stats to T3 add overload)
- Make Lord Neverember give a quest each day for ONE specific 10 man dungeon (pits EVERYONE to farm the same dungeon that day - this is the new "module 5 or w.e daily)
- Create a PVE campaign (like the PVP one) that has you getting achievements in PVE dungeons. Examples: Kill 10 Heroic Bosses, Complete 10 runs with zero deaths, complete 10 -10 man dungeons ETC.
That ENTIRE thing is recycled content that would be fun AND drive alot of incentive to PVE without more "boons" and crapyp dailies to farm. Players would LOVE to farm T3 gear - even PVP ers.
Oh and Also, create a +Tenacity armor re-enforcement kit, so PVPers can farm PVE gear and use it if they want for PVP.
The problem is that you'll end up giving away even better gear increasing the power creep even more. Cryptic have always seemed to struggle with taming the power creep on their games and with every update everyone seems to become stupidly stronger as long as they keep stacking the right layers of things. To make something actually hard opposed to ending up being made trivial due to power creep they'd need to add in avoidable but not too easy to predict obstacles / things the boss use that would kill people anyway despite having good gear.
Funny thing is a lot of complaints I see people putting on the forums for NW are almost copy and pasted complaints from CO's forums. In fact other than the foundry which is already in NW (although people ask for more to be added for it here still too) a lot of the things that are asked for are very similar to CO. One thing CO has that you guys want is those 10 man dungeon / raids however in CO it's pretty much mainly just a boss fight with 10 people.
The queue system for 10 man stuff uses the PvP queues which is of course two teams of 5 just instead it isn't PvP so both teams are fighting as a team of 10. It's a pretty easy thing for them to do here in NW just as it was in CO.
The problem is that you'll end up giving away even better gear increasing the power creep even more. Cryptic have always seemed to struggle with taming the power creep on their games and with every update everyone seems to become stupidly stronger as long as they keep stacking the right layers of things. To make something actually hard opposed to ending up being made trivial due to power creep they'd need to add in avoidable but not too easy to predict obstacles / things the boss use that would kill people anyway despite having good gear.
Funny thing is a lot of complaints I see people putting on the forums for NW are almost copy and pasted complaints from CO's forums. In fact other than the foundry which is already in NW (although people ask for more to be added for it here still too) a lot of the things that are asked for are very similar to CO. One thing CO has that you guys want is those 10 man dungeon / raids however in CO it's pretty much mainly just a boss fight with 10 people.
The queue system for 10 man stuff uses the PvP queues which is of course two teams of 5 just instead it isn't PvP so both teams are fighting as a team of 10. It's a pretty easy thing for them to do here in NW just as it was in CO.
Yeah Power creep is always a concern, back pre-module 1 having 40k HP was almost unheard of, or if you got it it was at the loss of ALOT of other stats. Now people can get up to 70k!
Having 1400+ regen was TOUGH to come by, now players are stacking WELL over 2k... Some even 3k!
I think with T3 gear it honestly would be least of "power creep" concerns. Why? Because Black Ice and Draconic Gear already exists. The MAIN reason we have power creep is actually much less gear and more a issue of things like:
1) Boons
2) Re-enforcement kits.
Boons give players all "pro" with no "con" meaning in the past the choice to gain stats was almost always at the loss of other stats. Boons are purely additions you get as a "bonus". This is why I honestly think boons should be cut down to +100 for the basic ones and then things like ToD boons and Sharandar stamina gain boons should be cut to 5% down from 10%. As a way to prevent power creep and make room for some more gear/sets etc. Also NO more boons!!!
With T3 Gear, here would be an example:
Ill look at CW T1/T2 and T3 compared to BlackIce/Draconic: Chest Pices:
Now there is alot that goes into all this, but I think a T3 Equiv could be comparable to Draconic gear AND add Overload since that seems to be the big deal.
So T3:
+ 476 Power
+ 476 recovery
+ 181 defense
+ 224 deflect
+ 224 Regen
TOTAL: 1581 (almost same as draconic)
Then add overload and also now you have room for some new 4 pc bonuses. 3 for EACH CLASS! I think ONE way to look at that could be combine the two T1/T2 set bonuses:
FOR EXAMPLE:
Guardian Fighters:
T1 Knights Captain: Using a power, increase allies power by 15% and defense by 25% for 6 seconds
T2 High General: Landing a crit gives 10% severity for 8 seconds to team
T3: Using a power 25% chance to increase allies power by 15%, and defense by 25% for 6 seconds. After landing a crit they gain 10% crit severity for 8 seconds.
Then the ability to add +100 tenacity to each via kits makes it viable for PVP!
Trickster Rogue Example:
T1: Shadewalker: Powers grant you 150 ARP and Lifesteal, stacks 4 times for 4 seconds.
T2: Master Assasin: Daily grants you 1350 Power for 6 seconds.
T3: Powers grant you 150 arp/lifesteal for 4 seconds stacks 4 times and daily grants you 1350 power for 6 seconds.
Again, just combine the previous two set bonuses.
Stats are still < Black Ice gear stats. These PVE sets would be good with the set bonuses though, and ALOT of fun to farm via 10 man dungeons. Power creep is meh (especially if you nerf boons), I think youd just see more options for builds. Id wager ALOT of people would still run black ice due to the tenacity and all around better stats it can grant, but who knows! I know I would maybe revisit some of the PVE armors for PVP....
1) That's simply not true. They are time-gated and require quite a bit of dailies to get them done. So there are cons to them: it takes time and effort to do get them. Then, there's something called natural progression. People need to grow during the game. Without that, there's no reason to do a campaign other than to gain access to time-gates dungeons, which are useless since you can't grow to the required gearscore. And since -to use the current mod as an example- the draconic gear is far from worth it, nor will it grant you access to the dungeon or skirmish. Also, it prevents the game from turning into a money contest since the only other way to improve your stats is by enchantments. A 1-time boost of about 1k GS in return for 45/60 days work
2) Reinforcement kits are not that much worse than the 1 time upgrade you could do with your armor profession.
The real issue in power creep lies in easy refining points (even for sale in the CS, which we're not allowed to call P2W on this forum) and the abundance of artifacts, also for sale in the CS.
Well again, if by Con you mean time spent then ya, but Con for me meant you LOSE something else available to you to get +250 points in something.
I personally think +250 stats is MASSIVE, I mean the difference in stats between T1 -> T2 is 148 stat points. 198 if you factor in the additional +50 on the 2pc you get.
And you want to give roughly that same advantage for doing an extra couple quests?
I agree with your premise, that players need natural progression, its the RATE at which we get that that I think is crazy.
Look at the difference between R8 and R10, Thats a difference of what 80 Stat points?!
Thats why at a MINIMUM Boons should be dropped to +100 stats from +250. Its just too much. Artifacts are even worse, same with artifact gear.
That system CAN work, but why its so broken in this game, is players dont become limited by choice anymore, they become limited by softcaps. This is why PVE players stack Power and PVP players stack HP. because there is no soft cap to those stats.
If Boons dropped to +100 on each, and Artifacts were cut in half in effectiveness as well (not saying this should happen) Youd see alot more players looking to stack other stats.
So if you want a system that rewards you THAT much for little things like boons, then you need to adjust the scaling for characters stats alot so that players have to choose between stats. I mean your essentially making a boon the equiv of a rank 9 enchant versus ZERO enchant. Thats the difference.
Also, I dont like that with 1 module, a few weeks of questing you can get +1000 stats and a big boon like +10% Stam Gain. Thats SO many stats for just a few quests. Same with Armor kits, +100 stats is still much more "fair".
I think a big culprit is also black ice gear, it shot TOO far ahead of the natural progression. It should be a HUGE decreasing reward for players once youve hit max level and max gear to further a character.
Example:
Going from a Rank 9 to Rank 10 costs millions, yet it only adds 40 stat points.
Doing a few dailies on a module gets you +250 stats. On a soft cap for say crit of 1400ish, thats MASSIVE.
Thats all I am saying. Either they need to significantly bump up soft caps and reduce effectivenss of stats lower levels. Or they need to diminish the boost of boons down quite a bit to tone down some of the insane stats players can get.
Id also have to say that black ice gear needs to be toned back some too.
Cryptic has decided that their idea of "endgame content" is to provide a menu of options, instead of one narrow progression path. People seem to be complaining that there isn't any structure to the menu. I find that to be a strength, not a weakness.
I'm a bit slow on this thread but find this to be an interesting point of view. Whilst I would tend to agree that the variety of options for players is a good thing I do tend to view the development of this game as rather haphazard.
I am still having a ton of fun with this game and see myself playing for a very long time. Sure, I've got the gear I want on my main, but that's what alts are for. I also keep running dungeons on my main to help people and to make money so I can buy the stuff I don't have yet.
End game is what you make it. I would love to see some harder dungeons, but I haven't unlocked shores or lair yet, so I have yet to see them.
I personally love the boons. It gives you a way to progress your character solo, and I think that's awesome. It gives me a reason to log on each day. I still do the ones I have finished as well.
Have fun or don't. Not everything in game should be about making yourself stronger. Keep doing things because you enjoy it. If you don't then why are you still playing? D&D is about the community and having fun with friends. If you don't have any friends and don't enjoy playing with others or helping others then you miss the spirit of Dungeons and Dragons entirely.
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I am still having a ton of fun with this game and see myself playing for a very long time. Sure, I've got the gear I want on my main, but that's what alts are for. I also keep running dungeons on my main to help people and to make money so I can buy the stuff I don't have yet.
End game is what you make it. I would love to see some harder dungeons, but I haven't unlocked shores or lair yet, so I have yet to see them.
I personally love the boons. It gives you a way to progress your character solo, and I think that's awesome. It gives me a reason to log on each day. I still do the ones I have finished as well.
Have fun or don't. Not everything in game should be about making yourself stronger. Keep doing things because you enjoy it. If you don't then why are you still playing? D&D is about the community and having fun with friends. If you don't have any friends and don't enjoy playing with others or helping others then you miss the spirit of Dungeons and Dragons entirely.
Join Date
Jun 2014
Call me next year when youve finished bashing your head against the wall because DEVs refuse to listen to players.
To your point though, I will say that if I started the game now, there IS alot to do, which is cool for new players, but those of us that have been here since OB and have done all the content multiple times on multiple characters on multiple accounts, who keep asking for SIMPLE things like:
1) A REAL "capstone" PVE dungeon.
2) New PVP Maps and gametypes
And we get things like a 10-15 minute dungeon, a RP system for betting BIS gear that incentivises BOT farming and players to buy RP stones rather than play the game... new pvp "content" that is more like Pokemon where you "gotta catch em all" with regards to companions and no real changes there, NO intigration or rewards for foundry or foundry pvp, a HORRIBLE matchmaking system.
And ALL of these had be PRE tested and PRE warned their systems werent the best but they do it anyways....
You might get frustrated too, this game was AMAZING at launch and honestly every module thus far (with MAYBE the exception of module 1) has been a turn for the worse.
Module 1 was ok because it introduced a real dungeon, boons that were somewhat difficult to farm, and the advantage of boons and farming was much less than the FOUR to FIVE boon "collections" we have today with NO real new content that is up to par.
/end rant
Overall, things need to change and they need to start listening to players - especially those that have been here the entire time trying ot give perspective. Some of the new players have enough farming ahead of them they dont realize the light at the end of the tunnel isnt real.
I think a lot of the current ones and players who have taken a sabbatical where looking for that as well.
They did say module 6 will have something big in store. Hoping it won't just be more dailies.
They say that with every new module.
Unless big changes means going back and re-hashing/fixing all the existing stuff (which I doubt) then I'd almost guarantee itll involve more dailies/boon farming, even NEWER artifacts to spend 6mil+ to get to legendary, new artifact gear to farm via RNG and spend millions on! Oh but wait! a NEWER/HARDER 15 minute dungeon!!!
Comments
Well if you force everyone to be in only one or two PVP instances, here's what will happen:
One side will have all of the elite PVP guilds.
The other side will have the suckers, scrubs and newbs.
And it will be a gankfest.
And then, two weeks later when the suckers, scrubs and newbs wise up and stop going to Open World PVP, you will be right back here complaining how "Open World PVP is dead".
For whatever reason, the "elite PVP guilds" just tend not to fight each other. We see this when most, if not all, join the Luskan side for GG; and most, if not all, join the AB side for IWD. So I'm skeptical that there will be anything resembling balanced chaotic PVP fights under your model of Open World PVP.
But my whole point here is that RIGHT NOW you CAN have "big pvp battles", if you choose. Cryptic has given you the tools to organize such a thing if you wish. (It could be made more user friendly to do so, admittedly, but the tools do exist.) It wasn't that long ago that someone here on the forums was trying to organize some sort of PVP tournament in IWD, I think. Why isn't that happening right now? Is it just a lack of effort among the PVP guilds to organize such a thing?
Your model would force everyone to participate in Open World PVP under your terms. The status quo means that you are able to participate in Open World PVP under a variety of different terms, all the way from simple 1v1 dueling to big epic battles. I prefer the more open-ended approach. Your approach is more susceptible to abuse, I believe.
More ice, a belt that can be got from the skirmish or AH aren't enticing rewards. To gt the artifact requires effort and really that's better off doing from gg or domination where you get glory, ad from dailies, grym coins and more useful campaign rewards. The iwd daily doesn't grant anything of use, it could at least give skrimshaw or something so there's no real reason to do it. Opvp is imba which basically promotes people to gang up on easy prey and if you're a victim of that you have to pay for injury kits so why bother contributing. Not only that but the pvp HE was broken for a long time which could've also contributed to dead opvp.
I'd agree with this except for one problem, as you put it at endgame, geared up with purples, there will be NO challenge either. Foundry quests at that point are like challenging first graders to a boxing match as a proffesional boxer.
Maybe you know this but my idea/view is to let the PVE players have the majority of instance #s, so say 1-15 are all PVE (entered the same way they are now) with PVP removed. BUT! If someone WANTS to enter a PVP zone, they talk to the PVP "quest guy" for each faction who will let them zone into a PVP only version of the instance. (PVP active everywhere on he map).
It seems you have a big opinion on this but dont classify yourself as being part of the "big pvp guilds". Again noone is FORCING anyone to go into the PVP instances, you actually have to go out of your way to do this. These instances FORCE even number of players into each instance.
Why do PVP guilds NOT arrange big battles now? Its too much work.
Its hard to arrange fair matches, enforce no companions, no matchamking no pots, and no assurance pugs wont come and ruin it.
Know how many times Ive tried to arrange 1v1s in OW? Over 50% of the time a random PUG comes up halfway through the match and we have to deal with him. Or worse, MORE than 1 comes and then one of us keeps trying to type out what were doing.
Whenever we find out players are in OW pvp, our guild rallies, weve even tried to set it up - actually in its current form wed just crash the server.
All that said, will it be SOME pug stomp - sure. What happens when ONE guild dominates all day long? They get bored and do something else. I think this would be MUCH more balanced than you think. Runescape had a "wild" that wasnt dominated by just one guild or a few "hardcore PVP guilds" it was large enough and random enough to avoid that.
This system would be the same way.
Again do the tools exist? Sure I guess in a WAY, but there is no way to set that up without interruption and its too hard to police,enforce. Its almost like saying we have the ability to do full guild 20vs20 in GG. Can we? Its plausible but its so unlikely to get 4 teams on each side to pop at the same time, its akin to that.
The MAIN issue with OW PVP right now:
1) Too spread out - no reason to do OW PVP.
2) Companions.
3) NO timer on Domination nor reason to do it.
4) Encroachment of PUGs.
Instance PVPs wont fix the encorachment issue, players dont JUST want "scheduled" guild versus guild battles. I know I personally want to roll around in a zone solo or duo and be able to fight other groups of players. I want RANDOM pvp.
5v5 Dom is great, but its too "scheduled" or "set". Its about domination, not kills. I want to roam an instance and battle players. without a "structure".
I know more players want this too
I used to do it for the profound set, and then the pvp dailies, but it got too repetitive doing dominations and i slowly started losing interest. Its been about 2 months I went to lv60 pvp about 5-7 times at most.
Now I am just growing my warlock which is in lv 50's now and since I am the pvp type I mostly level it up through pvp, as long as its gaining levels I am fine, but what after that? I would still say pvp needs alot of improvement.
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About the full pvp zone topic, what if its made such that the first person entering map would be AB and the next one is TT. Might address the 20v5 issue at your regular domination encounters as well and no more ganging up.
Then you can make your imagination a reality, and test your best build against the best on the server.
I don't know what this does for you, but it has a lot of appeal and is great fun for me.
Agreed with a lot of your points. Some of it are the same issues I brought up countless times on the forums. Hoping the devs would read it and get a clue but they probably are too busy working on more dailies for module 5. Yay
Hmm, that's true. More interesting than the same thing over & over, but no challenge. Perhaps the Foundry should incorporate Gear Score when scaling content.
It's not just that, but the Foundry lacks the tools for polished, professional endgame content.
What do I mean?
- lack of rewards. This is essential for endgame in MMOs. You cannot have one without the other
- lack of challenge/lack of boss fights. Can you blane the authors? cryptic them selves are unable to come with real boss mechanics after 4 modules
- lack of involved, epic storylines. Each foundry I played I felt like falling asleep. Same mobs from the campaign, same type of generic stories. Good story examples: Bioware games, creating NPCs you care about etc.
Real endgame content requires at least a team of dedicated, experienced game designers. A single author that does stuff in his spare time cannot come close.
Sorry.
It is not the fault of Foundry authors. They do not have the needed resources to create endgame.
I feel like what they SHOULD have done (might be too late now) is throw contests for players to build a dungeon for say 2 weeks, then for 2 weeks its hosted in a special event, the most popular dungeon gets the DEVs review and adjustment and addition to the game.
They also could have done this with PVP maps. Players make a map, they enable it for use via the foundry and the most popular map gets added to the game (after DEV review).
Then you create a "class advocate" system(not the one proposed) and you take say 3 players for each class and have a DEV Q/A with the Advocates about class balance. Each week, one class gets a "review" and "adjustment" from DEVs, so that classes will always be kept up to date and major bugs squashed and major balance issues addressed.
Now youve taken DEV time away from PVE dungeons, PVP maps, and Class balance as a normal day to day activity and they can focus on modules, and other fun things that players have asked for.
The STRONGEST/BEST asset a game has is its player base, who PLAY the game much much more than the DEVs spend even developing AND playing it. If they ever wake up and realize this, the game would take off like CRAZY!
The combat in this game was and has been fun (less so the last module) but they could easily hone that with the above player base helping the majority of content.
They could even use their time then to create BIG expansions that include 10 man dungeons as well... It opens ALOT of doors.
I pretty much agree with everything you said, with the exception of the 10-man dungeons. I would like them myself, but what I fear is that they will create even more of a divide in the game than we have now. As it is, every player can experience everything the game has to offer - even a casual player - sure, it will take a long time, but it is doable. This is even more true for something like 20+ man aids that have to be organized and carefully planned in advance. If you are not a member of a top guild, and able to play at certain times, you might never make it into one of those....this was in fact the main reason I stopped playing WoW several years ago. Neverwinter is not perfect, but it is a lot more casual-friendly in this respect.
WoW, not all that long ago, introduced the Raid Finder, and then Flex-Raids. What that has done is effectively allowed all casuals to queue for the endgame raids in a manner very similar to Neverwinter's dungeon queue.
I loved Raidfinder and so did my wife. May go back to it eventually.
Fix the Foundry. A contest that features the best new Foundry, and then implements purple rewards for the last chest of that foundry (along with coupon drops and other stuff mentioned here) would go a long way to keep players here.
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I can confirm LFR (Looking for Raid) worked extremely good for the casual in WoW. One could just queue up and in a few minutes you would be put in a faceroll type of raid with entry level purples. Was very good to experience the boss fights (with limited mechanics) and get gear for the Normal raid version (that could still be pugged yet required some skill, gear and experience).
The only skill-gated, hardcore content was the Heroic Raiding.
All in all, the system worked flawlessly.
I agree, which is why I think 20 man raids would be too much, esp for this game. But 10 man raids could definitely work!
I had an idea for the 10 mans:
- take the T1 dungeons make 10 man versions (re-cycles content, easy to do)
- take T1/T2 gear, create T3 gear that has overload slots (again, recycle old gear, beef up stats to T3 add overload)
- Make Lord Neverember give a quest each day for ONE specific 10 man dungeon (pits EVERYONE to farm the same dungeon that day - this is the new "module 5 or w.e daily)
- Create a PVE campaign (like the PVP one) that has you getting achievements in PVE dungeons. Examples: Kill 10 Heroic Bosses, Complete 10 runs with zero deaths, complete 10 -10 man dungeons ETC.
That ENTIRE thing is recycled content that would be fun AND drive alot of incentive to PVE without more "boons" and crapyp dailies to farm. Players would LOVE to farm T3 gear - even PVP ers.
Oh and Also, create a +Tenacity armor re-enforcement kit, so PVPers can farm PVE gear and use it if they want for PVP.
The problem is that you'll end up giving away even better gear increasing the power creep even more. Cryptic have always seemed to struggle with taming the power creep on their games and with every update everyone seems to become stupidly stronger as long as they keep stacking the right layers of things. To make something actually hard opposed to ending up being made trivial due to power creep they'd need to add in avoidable but not too easy to predict obstacles / things the boss use that would kill people anyway despite having good gear.
Funny thing is a lot of complaints I see people putting on the forums for NW are almost copy and pasted complaints from CO's forums. In fact other than the foundry which is already in NW (although people ask for more to be added for it here still too) a lot of the things that are asked for are very similar to CO. One thing CO has that you guys want is those 10 man dungeon / raids however in CO it's pretty much mainly just a boss fight with 10 people.
The queue system for 10 man stuff uses the PvP queues which is of course two teams of 5 just instead it isn't PvP so both teams are fighting as a team of 10. It's a pretty easy thing for them to do here in NW just as it was in CO.
A Playlist of my CO PvP video's
This should be posted as a separate thread. May we could buy those with something like 40k glory?
Yeah Power creep is always a concern, back pre-module 1 having 40k HP was almost unheard of, or if you got it it was at the loss of ALOT of other stats. Now people can get up to 70k!
Having 1400+ regen was TOUGH to come by, now players are stacking WELL over 2k... Some even 3k!
I think with T3 gear it honestly would be least of "power creep" concerns. Why? Because Black Ice and Draconic Gear already exists. The MAIN reason we have power creep is actually much less gear and more a issue of things like:
1) Boons
2) Re-enforcement kits.
Boons give players all "pro" with no "con" meaning in the past the choice to gain stats was almost always at the loss of other stats. Boons are purely additions you get as a "bonus". This is why I honestly think boons should be cut down to +100 for the basic ones and then things like ToD boons and Sharandar stamina gain boons should be cut to 5% down from 10%. As a way to prevent power creep and make room for some more gear/sets etc. Also NO more boons!!!
With T3 Gear, here would be an example:
Ill look at CW T1/T2 and T3 compared to BlackIce/Draconic: Chest Pices:
T1:
+392 Power
+392 Recovery
+165 Defense
+168 Defl
+168 Regen
Total: 1285 STATS
T2:
+434 Power/Recov
+173 Defense
+196 Deflect
+196 Regen
Total: 1433 STATS
Draconic TOTAL: 1582 STATS
BlackIce TOTAL: 2,205 STATS (HP Equiv is 4:1)
Now there is alot that goes into all this, but I think a T3 Equiv could be comparable to Draconic gear AND add Overload since that seems to be the big deal.
So T3:
+ 476 Power
+ 476 recovery
+ 181 defense
+ 224 deflect
+ 224 Regen
TOTAL: 1581 (almost same as draconic)
Then add overload and also now you have room for some new 4 pc bonuses. 3 for EACH CLASS! I think ONE way to look at that could be combine the two T1/T2 set bonuses:
FOR EXAMPLE:
Guardian Fighters:
T1 Knights Captain: Using a power, increase allies power by 15% and defense by 25% for 6 seconds
T2 High General: Landing a crit gives 10% severity for 8 seconds to team
T3: Using a power 25% chance to increase allies power by 15%, and defense by 25% for 6 seconds. After landing a crit they gain 10% crit severity for 8 seconds.
Then the ability to add +100 tenacity to each via kits makes it viable for PVP!
Trickster Rogue Example:
T1: Shadewalker: Powers grant you 150 ARP and Lifesteal, stacks 4 times for 4 seconds.
T2: Master Assasin: Daily grants you 1350 Power for 6 seconds.
T3: Powers grant you 150 arp/lifesteal for 4 seconds stacks 4 times and daily grants you 1350 power for 6 seconds.
Again, just combine the previous two set bonuses.
Stats are still < Black Ice gear stats. These PVE sets would be good with the set bonuses though, and ALOT of fun to farm via 10 man dungeons. Power creep is meh (especially if you nerf boons), I think youd just see more options for builds. Id wager ALOT of people would still run black ice due to the tenacity and all around better stats it can grant, but who knows! I know I would maybe revisit some of the PVE armors for PVP....
Well again, if by Con you mean time spent then ya, but Con for me meant you LOSE something else available to you to get +250 points in something.
I personally think +250 stats is MASSIVE, I mean the difference in stats between T1 -> T2 is 148 stat points. 198 if you factor in the additional +50 on the 2pc you get.
And you want to give roughly that same advantage for doing an extra couple quests?
I agree with your premise, that players need natural progression, its the RATE at which we get that that I think is crazy.
Look at the difference between R8 and R10, Thats a difference of what 80 Stat points?!
Thats why at a MINIMUM Boons should be dropped to +100 stats from +250. Its just too much. Artifacts are even worse, same with artifact gear.
That system CAN work, but why its so broken in this game, is players dont become limited by choice anymore, they become limited by softcaps. This is why PVE players stack Power and PVP players stack HP. because there is no soft cap to those stats.
If Boons dropped to +100 on each, and Artifacts were cut in half in effectiveness as well (not saying this should happen) Youd see alot more players looking to stack other stats.
So if you want a system that rewards you THAT much for little things like boons, then you need to adjust the scaling for characters stats alot so that players have to choose between stats. I mean your essentially making a boon the equiv of a rank 9 enchant versus ZERO enchant. Thats the difference.
Also, I dont like that with 1 module, a few weeks of questing you can get +1000 stats and a big boon like +10% Stam Gain. Thats SO many stats for just a few quests. Same with Armor kits, +100 stats is still much more "fair".
I think a big culprit is also black ice gear, it shot TOO far ahead of the natural progression. It should be a HUGE decreasing reward for players once youve hit max level and max gear to further a character.
Example:
Going from a Rank 9 to Rank 10 costs millions, yet it only adds 40 stat points.
Doing a few dailies on a module gets you +250 stats. On a soft cap for say crit of 1400ish, thats MASSIVE.
Thats all I am saying. Either they need to significantly bump up soft caps and reduce effectivenss of stats lower levels. Or they need to diminish the boost of boons down quite a bit to tone down some of the insane stats players can get.
Id also have to say that black ice gear needs to be toned back some too.
I'm a bit slow on this thread but find this to be an interesting point of view. Whilst I would tend to agree that the variety of options for players is a good thing I do tend to view the development of this game as rather haphazard.
End game is what you make it. I would love to see some harder dungeons, but I haven't unlocked shores or lair yet, so I have yet to see them.
I personally love the boons. It gives you a way to progress your character solo, and I think that's awesome. It gives me a reason to log on each day. I still do the ones I have finished as well.
Have fun or don't. Not everything in game should be about making yourself stronger. Keep doing things because you enjoy it. If you don't then why are you still playing? D&D is about the community and having fun with friends. If you don't have any friends and don't enjoy playing with others or helping others then you miss the spirit of Dungeons and Dragons entirely.
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Join Date
Jun 2014
Call me next year when youve finished bashing your head against the wall because DEVs refuse to listen to players.
To your point though, I will say that if I started the game now, there IS alot to do, which is cool for new players, but those of us that have been here since OB and have done all the content multiple times on multiple characters on multiple accounts, who keep asking for SIMPLE things like:
1) A REAL "capstone" PVE dungeon.
2) New PVP Maps and gametypes
And we get things like a 10-15 minute dungeon, a RP system for betting BIS gear that incentivises BOT farming and players to buy RP stones rather than play the game... new pvp "content" that is more like Pokemon where you "gotta catch em all" with regards to companions and no real changes there, NO intigration or rewards for foundry or foundry pvp, a HORRIBLE matchmaking system.
And ALL of these had be PRE tested and PRE warned their systems werent the best but they do it anyways....
You might get frustrated too, this game was AMAZING at launch and honestly every module thus far (with MAYBE the exception of module 1) has been a turn for the worse.
Module 1 was ok because it introduced a real dungeon, boons that were somewhat difficult to farm, and the advantage of boons and farming was much less than the FOUR to FIVE boon "collections" we have today with NO real new content that is up to par.
/end rant
Overall, things need to change and they need to start listening to players - especially those that have been here the entire time trying ot give perspective. Some of the new players have enough farming ahead of them they dont realize the light at the end of the tunnel isnt real.
I think a lot of the current ones and players who have taken a sabbatical where looking for that as well.
They did say module 6 will have something big in store. Hoping it won't just be more dailies.
They say that with every new module.
Unless big changes means going back and re-hashing/fixing all the existing stuff (which I doubt) then I'd almost guarantee itll involve more dailies/boon farming, even NEWER artifacts to spend 6mil+ to get to legendary, new artifact gear to farm via RNG and spend millions on! Oh but wait! a NEWER/HARDER 15 minute dungeon!!!
You cannot have any fun when you're getting your Rank 7s face pounded into the dirt repeatedly by that dude with Rank 10s and Legendaries.
Are we supposed to ignore PvP now?
I dident know it was unignored
But yeah all jokes aside, only real endgame for BiS players is totally ignored by the devs, not cool