This was tested on preview, reported on feedback and unfortunately made it live. Some of the biggest unbalances were added the last 2 weeks before launch. This isn't a l2p issue, it is a "will get patched" issue. Good points in the OP but that doesn't apply to a few of the things going on in pvp right now. Give it a patch or two and it should calm down. If you don't know what these are then there is nothing I can do to help. These aren't small things they are glaring.
it all started from a learn to play issue... and it has fallen out of control.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
The problem to me isn't a class being op or not. My only problem is things like the blue dragon overload which makes it where if you attack someone you die. That's a bad mechanic that breaks pvp. Someone has one and about the only thing you can do is feed them kills or sit at your spawn.
Why don't they make a PVP server like the test server where everyone can do the same damage wear the same gear and shoot rainbows out the arses that will solve the dilemma, and leave all of us playing the game it was intended in peace.
Zactly... (and shooting rainbows out there arses LOL...perfect)
0
petestarksMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2014
I'm still thinking after the few times I poke my head into PVP for a daily that it is still the same old problem. There are a few balance issues, but the meat of the problem is matches full of guilds that have all this exploited gear. THEY are the ones ruining it for everyone as far as I see it. Sure we have some people that spend 1000's of dollars to outgear most of the PVP population... I just think we should be honest that the countless AD that flew through and the various enchantment bugs have left us with maundering bands of kiddies rocking perfect everything measuring their e-peen
It would be amazing if we could give them a server they could use for just PVP. If they want to beat on each other with their high dollar or shady gear then let them have a ball with it. This reminds me of when people would abuse bugs on epic Caverns of Karrundax and Castle Never. I can not be the only person that remembers when pugging those places was not possible and you would be instantly kicked or find one person trying to wall jump like a fool. No balance in the world will fix this problem we are having is when you join a match and everyone pretty much insta-kills you. It took me 5 PVP matches to find one filled with "normal" players and do you know what? It was a pretty fun match! The only thing happening with all this balance talk is you are guys are ruining PVE for everyone else
Oh! Before anyone says it... Join a guild because that is the magic be all end all fix of dealing with shady people because apparently fixing the root problems is not an option lol
Moral is please stop "balancing" all the PVE people under the rules of people crying in PVP who do not even understand what the real problem they are experiencing is. So tired of skills being "fixed" for PVP that mess with PVE play... Input? Suggestions? Call me a scrub that sucks at PVP?
Well, the cry for balance still goes on... And here's the latest My gripe is with the SW. All those floating 'Soul Companions', when your up against a team that has two or more SW it doubles their team size, in terms of being able to target your opponents. I just had a game against a team with four SW, I couldn't even hit the enemy because their bases were a-wash with these companions.
Electric shot got buffed by 100%, it's still not used in pve.
Unstoppable got initially reduced to 20% effectiveness.
The fact they make such huge changes shows that balance isn't their strong point. People used to take 4-5 CWs in pve. You think that's ok? Some of those imbalances will show up more in pvp. Pvpers can spend a lot of money. They have the right to their opinion, deal with it. Of course so people are going to whine about anything. However there are a lot of imbalances. The game is far from perfect and overlooking that is naive.
Electric shot got buffed by 100%, it's still not used in pve.
Unstoppable got initially reduced to 20% effectiveness.
The fact they make such huge changes shows that balance isn't their strong point. People used to take 4-5 CWs in pve. You think that's ok? Some of those imbalances will show up more in pvp. Pvpers can spend a lot of money. They have the right to their opinion, deal with it. Of course so people are going to whine about anything. However there are a lot of imbalances. The game is far from perfect and overlooking that is naive.
^^
This guy passed his reality check - Respect .......
Please remember that there is no way to balance pvp with people that have an assortment of gears and skills that are at different levels of power and defence.
No matter what is done to so called balance the game, you will always have a player go in that is under geared or over geared into combat and get squashed or dominate all.
Just enjoy the game and stop asking for others to be weakened because you have not found the way to defeat them yet.
If you have 21-25khp and the person you are fighting has 45k-60khp, do not expect to just blow them out of the water.
If you want to ask who is breaking the game, just go look in the mirror.
You are the guilty ones.
I know you want to win. I know you want to dominate everything in your path. But how boring would it be if you always won? Would it even be worth playing?
Many of you also are now complaining that MOD 4 is broken. Did you stop and think that if you were not all complaining about our old balance that the Developers could have done even more amazing things in MOD 4? Did you stop and think that if you guys had helped test on shard server and reported bugs quickly (without constantly crying for nerfs) that you would not be suffering like you are now?
You are causing the downfall of this game.
You Sir, where have you been all my life? Hear Hear, Kudos, etc... I have been trying to find a polite way to say this for over four months. Thank you.
Additionally, why would we want the classes to all be the same(evenly balanced)? D&D has had decades to figure out whose class can get away with doing what, under which circumstances. Gee, i wish neophytes knew this.
Even thought I agree that there are a lot of players whining about classes in pvp. There are still major problems in balance
- 12k gs should not totally dominate over 14k gs player 1 vs 1
- there should not be domination 1 vs 2 or 1 vs 3 of people in equal or close GS
- 1 vs 1 class domination for player of same GS is ok. This is a team game and team play should be favored.
- There should not be OP power. Like CWs now and broken overload enchantments where one class or one player with OP enchantment can suddenly have OP above all other classes. Getting better should be a combination of skill and better equipment as total sum not just one.
- PVP should be more challenging for diversity and know how to play your class rather then 2 buttons GWF before, 1 spell CW now
- Domination of gear should not give domination over skill - HR were squishy in mod3 until you get profound.
- diversity of pathes in pvp is a much. There must not be only one good pvp style - freeze CW, Roar GWF, combat only HR, perma TR and so on. Every path should have more valuable ways so succeed
- PvP pathes should be playable and valuable in pve play too.Not like now when combat HR are only PVP build
- classes should have similar possibilities to deal damage/ place CC/ break CC/ heal. Difference should be in how much and in what play stile can then do it. As examle CW should be more control, still having power to do damage but not both. HR should have on other had be able to avoid some CC and deal god amount of damage rather then crazy heal in CC and have week damage. And so on.
- At the same time classes should not be equalized. More diversity of play and more equal opportunities to do your best in equal amount of situations.
0
clericalistMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 595Arc User
edited August 2014
Personally think that balance should be the paper, rock and scissors kind of balance. One type has an advantage over some type and a weakness to other types, being able to beat every class should be sign of imbalance. Also team work should provide more bonuses, having 5 of the same types beating any other combination of teams should also be sure sign of imbalance.
0
deathklaat666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 61Arc User
edited August 2014
Don't like the crying much myself, especially outloud in game play.. but there should be some obvious balancing of classes. when some things are Obviously out of control they should be balanced... I.E. when a 10k.GS CW can own a 17k,GS DC with 40k+ hps. and 3500+defense in 1 rotation things are a bit off kilter.
I think a lot of the nerfs/buffs has concentrated on the PVP aspect of the game....that unfairly affected PVE as well.
Here is the big problem though: Neverwinter is intended to be a PVE game BUT dead endgame PVE has caused the high-end and hardcore players to switch to PVP.
Just how dead is endgame PVE for hardcore and high-end players? People are barely running Castle Never. Still no raiding, still no organized endgame PVE expansion, still 5-man parties. Where has all the high-end PVE guilds gone? Most of them are dead. There much more top tier PVP guilds though, I wonder why.
I am on the OP's side on this issue. This is mainly a PvE game as Dungeons and Dragons has always been. PvP is secondary and should be for fun, not for serious (bad grammar intended). PvP is not broken, however you cannot expect to dominate everything with any class or gear level.
I am also very much enjoying Mod 4 so far.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
... Tired of running dungeons with exploiters and cheaters? Join the legit channel by visiting http://goo.gl/1zfnTS to apply!
Performing ritual pony sacrifices to Tiamat to earn favor with the RNG Gods since 2014.
...
The problem is not that some ppl complain about PvP balance, the problem is that Devs doesn't know how to balance, haven't you played a game with a better balance in PvP and PvE?.
Anyway, PvE content is easy, so easy that ppl start going to PvP (IWD, GG, Domination) because there is nothing more to do, so they could make more dungeons like CN to make PvP not the only high end content... (and CN is obsolet right now, so they should make more dungeons and harder, maybe some Legendary ones).
I agree with the OP. Players are trying to make the classes something they are not. The classes are designed to be cooperative/supportive of each other, not balanced for PvP. In order to truly achieve balance the classes would need to redesigned from the ground up, which would taking them even further away from the Player's Handbook guidelines. PvPers just need to realize you are not going to win every time against everybody. If you are playing a class that is inherently weaker than your opponent, run away and live to fight another day, or stop trying to 1v1 and bring some help.
i can't help but commend the OP here. reporting class imbalance without data (combat logs, ACT logs, build data, gear data) is anecdotal at best. i'm not saying that there isn't a possibility of imbalance, but without providing some kind of proof outside of your own statistical analysis, it just seems like unsubstantiated complaints.
Commending someone who starts a thread with a header that says something like "Stop Crying" about any subject is a great way to encourage starting troll threads.
Coming soon to a forum near you "OP PVP Players need to stop crying about PVP balance threads."
I agree with OP to a point. You can't balance it completely.
Every game i've ever played has had trouble with balance issues in pvp.
The only difference being that none I have played allowed an entire pre made team to go into random matches.
Maybe if pugs weren't matched against premades half the time, the ratio of competitive games would go up and you might stop seeing threads like this.
But saying to people that they should stop crying about PVP balance because it can never be achieved right after the company spent a major effort rebalancing PVP is kind of funny to me, especially when 99% of the people who say "stop crying about pvp balance" are all playing the op unbalanced fotm build or class.
0
demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
Commending someone who starts a thread with a header that says something like "Stop Crying" about any subject is a great way to encourage starting troll threads.
Coming soon to a forum near you "OP PVP Players need to stop crying about PVP balance threads."
I agree with OP to a point. You can't balance it completely.
Every game i've ever played has had trouble with balance issues in pvp.
The only difference being that none I have played allowed an entire pre made team to go into random matches.
Maybe if pugs weren't matched against premades half the time, the ratio of competitive games would go up and you might stop seeing threads like this.
But saying to people that they should stop crying about PVP balance because it can never be achieved right after the company spent a major effort rebalancing PVP is kind of funny to me, especially when 99% of the people who say "stop crying about pvp balance" are all playing the op unbalanced fotm build or class.
I never cried about roar from gwf, instead I learned how to kill them with roar.
I never cried about HR healing abilities, instead I learned how to prevent the healing and kill them.
I never criend about GF perma knock, instead I learned how to anticipate it and escape just to return and kill them.
No matter how good you are or what gear you have, there will always be someone that you just cannot kill at all (until you use a different build of enchantments and encounters)
7 years from now balance will still be an issue.
I already know because I played a few games for more than 9 years and balance never gets solved.
I'm telling you it is impossible when gears and stuff vary so much.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
the problem is not balances but the problem is people understanding the each class has a role either a striker, controller , defender , or support
you can't expect yourself to be all of them at once ... this is crazy if you do
the fact that people say it should be even is ridiculous because it won't ever happen for each class still has to serve its role that it was created to do
Ok. While I agree that in an ideal world each class should fill a different role, there is one huge problem with that in Neverwinter PvP - random party composition if you solo queue. It's no good having a class that, for instance, is pure support if the PvP queue could assemble a party made entirely of this support class.
The whole time that PvP party composition is random you will get people asking for each class to be multi-role because that's the only type of class that's viable.
There are few things that however cant be discussed.
Gf- has more single target then gwf with 60k hp without even trying to max hp.
Cw- are melting people abusing dots, at wills which proc passive unmitigable damages that can crit without internal cooldown.
Tr- dont have damages, cant even perma anymore on a node.
Dc- derp
Glyphs- broken.
My take on PvP in MMO's is that it should always be wholly even - when you step into the PvP arena everyone has the same stats, powers and gear. That way, it's strictly "skillz" v "skillz". At that point you have massive qq from the PvP community, who, at their core want NOTHING to do with balance...
Wow, this is a brilliant idea. Seriously, this needs to happen. Maybe set it up to just average everyones stats in the match, lol.. Then the only imbalances would be the teams composition and some people lagging more than others. I'm not sure how to work out the artifact part, maybe just restrict them or just give everyone a pvp only waters.
Please remember that there is no way to balance pvp with people that have an assortment of gears and skills that are at different levels of power and defence.
No matter what is done to so called balance the game, you will always have a player go in that is under geared or over geared into combat and get squashed or dominate all.
Just enjoy the game and stop asking for others to be weakened because you have not found the way to defeat them yet.
If you have 21-25khp and the person you are fighting has 45k-60khp, do not expect to just blow them out of the water.
If you want to ask who is breaking the game, just go look in the mirror.
You are the guilty ones.
I know you want to win. I know you want to dominate everything in your path. But how boring would it be if you always won? Would it even be worth playing?
Many of you also are now complaining that MOD 4 is broken. Did you stop and think that if you were not all complaining about our old balance that the Developers could have done even more amazing things in MOD 4? Did you stop and think that if you guys had helped test on shard server and reported bugs quickly (without constantly crying for nerfs) that you would not be suffering like you are now?
You are causing the downfall of this game.
There is a good reason for all that. Why it happened is open for debate, was it because PVE got so easy, was it because its in our nature as humans to want to dominate everything around us, nature, animals, fellow humans.. but we became very PVP focused. Even people who originally were into RP, who really enjoyed a well written and executed Foundry quest now simply enjoy owning others in PVP.
As time went by regular PVPers disgruntled by changes, different class abilities perceived as "OP" or simply by other people's actions and inability to meet their own expectations started getting angry. Started insulting folks in matches, started hating on people really and that is a bad thing in a multiplayer game. Then the forum wars started with demands which sometimes made no sense at all. OP is right, we did this ourselves by succumbing to our own basic violent nature - "kill the enemies". And players who might have helped you get your last piece of gear in that epic dungeon last month are now your enemies cause now PVP is your driving force. To make it even worse due to unfortunate bugs over the Mods we got dominant classes and those became the focus of people's rage. The GWF class in particular is almost universally hated and the hate transfers to the people who play it because it is auto assumed they play it for the overpowered abilities not because as a kid they were fans of Conan.. Its a vicious circle folks and we are those who must break it
Row, row, row your boat, Gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
The problem is not that some ppl complain about PvP balance, the problem is that Devs doesn't know how to balance, haven't you played a game with a better balance in PvP and PvE?.
Anyway, PvE content is easy, so easy that ppl start going to PvP (IWD, GG, Domination) because there is nothing more to do, so they could make more dungeons like CN to make PvP not the only high end content... (and CN is obsolet right now, so they should make more dungeons and harder, maybe some Legendary ones).
Very bad hypothesis/theory. I am a PvE only player and I know many others with the same preference. I have been playing since late beta stages and will NEVER play PvP. I have never liked it and never will - across several different MMOs I have played.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!" pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all." looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
Very bad hypothesis/theory. I am a PvE only player and I know many others with the same preference. I have been playing since late beta stages and will NEVER play PvP. I have never liked it and never will - across several different MMOs I have played.
Actually he's right for the majority of people I talk to in game about it. I know there was a forum poll that says otherwise but in game that is what I meet the most.
Actually he's right for the majority of people I talk to in game about it. I know there was a forum poll that says otherwise but in game that is what I meet the most.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!" pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all." looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
I used to hate PvP with a passion. Not just because of the toxic people playing but because my AC DCs would get perma-stunned, floated in the air, frozen and paralysed and I would be dead in 3 seconds every time I left the camp fire. I also was not very good at it and my first character was level 60 before I even realised how the scoring worked. Some matches, my team were the top five on the scoreboard, but lost the match by 300 points! Huh?
Then I understood about holding points and team cohesion. Sometimes, my AC Healer would back cap from the camp fire, just to stop them scoring for a little while. Even though I know she will die as soon as even ONE of the enemy turn up, on a few occasions she slowed their scoring down enough to just steal a win in a close match.
So I made a new character, a Dwarf DO Berserker Battle Cleric and I Feated and Geared him for max Damage and Divinity Regain so his best Healing is from Soothing Light with Cycle of Change, and gave him as much Power, Crit and ArPen as I could. And I kept his gear up to level with AH Blues. Stacked STR and WIS, 17 CON with Campfire bonus.
MASSIVE difference. In PUG matches, he sometimes got as many as 17 kills and won the gear prize. He only needs 31 TRIPLE KILLS to get his 10th achievement. My Healer AC has zero TRIPLE KILLS and only 4 DOUBLE KILLS. I do not think she will EVER get her 10 achievements in the PvP campaign.
I really think that DCs should get some special bonus for Healing assists, as only being able to progress by kill-rate is a permanent handicap on the entire class if you are specced for Healing and Buffing, rather than Damage and Debuffing.
But that all changed when my Dwarf hit level 60. He was suddenly hopelessly outmatched by the other level 60s as he had only blue gear. But after grinding all the Arena PvP events, he got enough Glory for a full set of Profound Righteous and a 15k GS. Even killed a few GF, GWF, TR and HR 1 vs 1. But NEVER a CW.
I still get teamed with 2 DC, 2 TR and a CW against two GWF, two CW and an HR, so we have no chance, really. But I have noticed that if I do Arena Events between 4 and 8 AM GMT, I tend to get teamed against low gear teams from Europe. From about 11 AM to midnight, they tend to be very heavily geared and enchanted teams from the States, with Voice Chat active. Active Voice Chat REALLY makes a difference. I only played one PvP match where one of us had Voice Chat, and he shouted warnings about enemies behind me so I could dodge in time. Even though I could not see it coming, I just dodged and spun round.
There are undoubtedly balances needed as since Mod 4 went active, my Dwarf's CC Resist seems to do nothing at all. I get frozen, stunned, choked, floated in the air and hp drained in 3 to 5 seconds as badly as my AC Healer ever did. And I unleashed a blue Daunting Light with Nimbus of Light followed by Hammer of Fate on a GF, and I killed MYSELF due to the broken Enchant. So fixing that is not a nerf, it's a fix for something broken.
Another thing is that GWFs and Guardians should always be susceptible to missile fire. That should be their major disadvantage, as a sniper from above in Hotenow (whether HR, CW, TR or even a DC) can not be reached by a melee character unless they run up there and bash them.
Related to this would be a fix to a GWF stunning and proning me from horseback 20 or 30 feet away. That is ridiculous. A two-handed weapon has a reach of 10 feet, so they should have to be up REAL CLOSE to hit anyone. Not stun them from 30 feet away. That is why they have the advantage of better armour and better damage - they have to be up CLOSE and have no missile or ranged powers.
But, yes, you need Gear and you should need Skill to play PvP. It's always more fun to have a good, close match. Being stomped into the dust or doing the stomping is no fun. I don't want to win 1000 to 43 any more than I want to lose by 43 to 1000.
Even when I get killed easily, I keep going out there as if I die in melee within 10 or 15 seconds, it's a lot more fun than dying in 3 seconds. In fact, I usually laugh out loud if I am killed by someone better then me.
But being perma-stunned and paralysed and losing all 28k hp in 3 seconds could never be fun for anyone. With the new Stun replacing Prone, I cannot even WALK, let alone dodge. At least before I could WALK out of the way when stunned, even if my keyboard was locked out and I could not dodge. Now, I am just a sitting duck.
And that enchant that multiplies my own damage and throws it back at me? Must be broken.
It's a matter of there is no real pvp endgame, no real raids, etc, to keep up the pve endgame, so the only thing to do is pvp. Or level alts for leadership etc.
I never cried about roar from gwf, instead I learned how to kill them with roar.
I never cried about HR healing abilities, instead I learned how to prevent the healing and kill them.
I never criend about GF perma knock, instead I learned how to anticipate it and escape just to return and kill them.
No matter how good you are or what gear you have, there will always be someone that you just cannot kill at all (until you use a different build of enchantments and encounters)
7 years from now balance will still be an issue.
I already know because I played a few games for more than 9 years and balance never gets solved.
I'm telling you it is impossible when gears and stuff vary so much.
You completely undermine the importance of balancing. Do you really think all of these gaming companies would spend so much effort into balancing if it was as simple as "learn to deal with it". Obviously skill plays a part in it, but people can have skill and imbalances which add up. Using the same logic you could say that trs are fine in pve, they just need to l2p. I mean sure they can do fine and I wouldn't purposefully leave out a guildie tr that wanted to play, but noone would really go looking for them especially.
The only people who aren't bothered by class balance are the ones who are bad at pvp or play the best class.
People spend money on this game so it should be balanced, no one class should be able to beat another.
My friend who is an 18k very strong gwf player tested against my NEW HR char in icewind and I killed him easy, he couldn't touch me and my hr is only 12.5k gs, is that fair ? a guy spends money and time on this game and I can beat him with a char that I have only just got to icewind with, lol ok then.
It is not hard to make classes balanced. Yes they should have differences but one class should not be king of pvp, they should all be equals but require different skills.
Did he try as a sentinel?
I think a lot of GWFs are still playing the same way they did before. I'm not saying speccing sent would've made the difference, but there are some pretty big changes to GWF and it might take awhile for everyone to get used to them.
I mean, I still see some GWFs using Roar even though the skill is basically useless now.
In any case, HRs are far from "a God" at PVP. There's as many HRs as there are GWFs on the top two pages (4 each) right now, and I know that at least one of those HRs is using the legendary token, giving him cc-immunity which is the HR's weak spot.
As for the OP, I've never played a game that had such dramatic swings in balance as Neverwinter. When they change stuff, they always try something new and dramatic, and it often ends up being more OP then the thing they were trying to change.
PVP players have a right to want fair games, where everyone is able to contribute and play a role.
If one were cynical, one might suspect Cryptic does these huge changes every 3 months to sell zen, because people need to change classes if they want to be effective, which means lots of AD/Zen spent on new artifacts, leveling etc.
My Harem: Dawn HR, Erin CW, Piper TR, Zoe GWF
0
kaiserschmarrnMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 390
edited August 2014
+1 to the OP, true words.
Pvp is not and will never be the main focus of this game. And don't even get me started about pvp in D&D (wizard vs fighter, yeah sure).
Be content with what you have and don't ruin skills and classes with baseless cries for balance. Pve is and will always be the centerpiece of a D&D game.
Comments
it all started from a learn to play issue... and it has fallen out of control.
Zactly... (and shooting rainbows out there arses LOL...perfect)
It would be amazing if we could give them a server they could use for just PVP. If they want to beat on each other with their high dollar or shady gear then let them have a ball with it. This reminds me of when people would abuse bugs on epic Caverns of Karrundax and Castle Never. I can not be the only person that remembers when pugging those places was not possible and you would be instantly kicked or find one person trying to wall jump like a fool. No balance in the world will fix this problem we are having is when you join a match and everyone pretty much insta-kills you. It took me 5 PVP matches to find one filled with "normal" players and do you know what? It was a pretty fun match! The only thing happening with all this balance talk is you are guys are ruining PVE for everyone else
Oh! Before anyone says it... Join a guild because that is the magic be all end all fix of dealing with shady people because apparently fixing the root problems is not an option lol
Moral is please stop "balancing" all the PVE people under the rules of people crying in PVP who do not even understand what the real problem they are experiencing is. So tired of skills being "fixed" for PVP that mess with PVE play... Input? Suggestions? Call me a scrub that sucks at PVP?
Unstoppable got initially reduced to 20% effectiveness.
The fact they make such huge changes shows that balance isn't their strong point. People used to take 4-5 CWs in pve. You think that's ok? Some of those imbalances will show up more in pvp. Pvpers can spend a lot of money. They have the right to their opinion, deal with it. Of course so people are going to whine about anything. However there are a lot of imbalances. The game is far from perfect and overlooking that is naive.
^^
This guy passed his reality check - Respect .......
You Sir, where have you been all my life? Hear Hear, Kudos, etc... I have been trying to find a polite way to say this for over four months. Thank you.
Additionally, why would we want the classes to all be the same(evenly balanced)? D&D has had decades to figure out whose class can get away with doing what, under which circumstances. Gee, i wish neophytes knew this.
- 12k gs should not totally dominate over 14k gs player 1 vs 1
- there should not be domination 1 vs 2 or 1 vs 3 of people in equal or close GS
- 1 vs 1 class domination for player of same GS is ok. This is a team game and team play should be favored.
- There should not be OP power. Like CWs now and broken overload enchantments where one class or one player with OP enchantment can suddenly have OP above all other classes. Getting better should be a combination of skill and better equipment as total sum not just one.
- PVP should be more challenging for diversity and know how to play your class rather then 2 buttons GWF before, 1 spell CW now
- Domination of gear should not give domination over skill - HR were squishy in mod3 until you get profound.
- diversity of pathes in pvp is a much. There must not be only one good pvp style - freeze CW, Roar GWF, combat only HR, perma TR and so on. Every path should have more valuable ways so succeed
- PvP pathes should be playable and valuable in pve play too.Not like now when combat HR are only PVP build
- classes should have similar possibilities to deal damage/ place CC/ break CC/ heal. Difference should be in how much and in what play stile can then do it. As examle CW should be more control, still having power to do damage but not both. HR should have on other had be able to avoid some CC and deal god amount of damage rather then crazy heal in CC and have week damage. And so on.
- At the same time classes should not be equalized. More diversity of play and more equal opportunities to do your best in equal amount of situations.
Here is the big problem though: Neverwinter is intended to be a PVE game BUT dead endgame PVE has caused the high-end and hardcore players to switch to PVP.
Just how dead is endgame PVE for hardcore and high-end players? People are barely running Castle Never. Still no raiding, still no organized endgame PVE expansion, still 5-man parties. Where has all the high-end PVE guilds gone? Most of them are dead. There much more top tier PVP guilds though, I wonder why.
I am also very much enjoying Mod 4 so far.
...
Tired of running dungeons with exploiters and cheaters? Join the legit channel by visiting http://goo.gl/1zfnTS to apply!
Performing ritual pony sacrifices to Tiamat to earn favor with the RNG Gods since 2014.
...
Anyway, PvE content is easy, so easy that ppl start going to PvP (IWD, GG, Domination) because there is nothing more to do, so they could make more dungeons like CN to make PvP not the only high end content... (and CN is obsolet right now, so they should make more dungeons and harder, maybe some Legendary ones).
Commending someone who starts a thread with a header that says something like "Stop Crying" about any subject is a great way to encourage starting troll threads.
Coming soon to a forum near you "OP PVP Players need to stop crying about PVP balance threads."
I agree with OP to a point. You can't balance it completely.
Every game i've ever played has had trouble with balance issues in pvp.
The only difference being that none I have played allowed an entire pre made team to go into random matches.
Maybe if pugs weren't matched against premades half the time, the ratio of competitive games would go up and you might stop seeing threads like this.
But saying to people that they should stop crying about PVP balance because it can never be achieved right after the company spent a major effort rebalancing PVP is kind of funny to me, especially when 99% of the people who say "stop crying about pvp balance" are all playing the op unbalanced fotm build or class.
I never cried about roar from gwf, instead I learned how to kill them with roar.
I never cried about HR healing abilities, instead I learned how to prevent the healing and kill them.
I never criend about GF perma knock, instead I learned how to anticipate it and escape just to return and kill them.
No matter how good you are or what gear you have, there will always be someone that you just cannot kill at all (until you use a different build of enchantments and encounters)
7 years from now balance will still be an issue.
I already know because I played a few games for more than 9 years and balance never gets solved.
I'm telling you it is impossible when gears and stuff vary so much.
the problem is not balances but the problem is people understanding the each class has a role either a striker, controller , defender , or support
you can't expect yourself to be all of them at once ... this is crazy if you do
the fact that people say it should be even is ridiculous because it won't ever happen for each class still has to serve its role that it was created to do
The whole time that PvP party composition is random you will get people asking for each class to be multi-role because that's the only type of class that's viable.
Aelar Hawkwind - Archer
Karrin Feywinter - Mistress of Flame
Errin Duskwalker - Executioner
Darquess - Soulbinder
Gf- has more single target then gwf with 60k hp without even trying to max hp.
Cw- are melting people abusing dots, at wills which proc passive unmitigable damages that can crit without internal cooldown.
Tr- dont have damages, cant even perma anymore on a node.
Dc- derp
Glyphs- broken.
This is not complaining. This is stating things.
Wow, this is a brilliant idea. Seriously, this needs to happen. Maybe set it up to just average everyones stats in the match, lol.. Then the only imbalances would be the teams composition and some people lagging more than others. I'm not sure how to work out the artifact part, maybe just restrict them or just give everyone a pvp only waters.
There is a good reason for all that. Why it happened is open for debate, was it because PVE got so easy, was it because its in our nature as humans to want to dominate everything around us, nature, animals, fellow humans.. but we became very PVP focused. Even people who originally were into RP, who really enjoyed a well written and executed Foundry quest now simply enjoy owning others in PVP.
As time went by regular PVPers disgruntled by changes, different class abilities perceived as "OP" or simply by other people's actions and inability to meet their own expectations started getting angry. Started insulting folks in matches, started hating on people really and that is a bad thing in a multiplayer game. Then the forum wars started with demands which sometimes made no sense at all. OP is right, we did this ourselves by succumbing to our own basic violent nature - "kill the enemies". And players who might have helped you get your last piece of gear in that epic dungeon last month are now your enemies cause now PVP is your driving force. To make it even worse due to unfortunate bugs over the Mods we got dominant classes and those became the focus of people's rage. The GWF class in particular is almost universally hated and the hate transfers to the people who play it because it is auto assumed they play it for the overpowered abilities not because as a kid they were fans of Conan.. Its a vicious circle folks and we are those who must break it
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, Life is but a dream.
Very bad hypothesis/theory. I am a PvE only player and I know many others with the same preference. I have been playing since late beta stages and will NEVER play PvP. I have never liked it and never will - across several different MMOs I have played.
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
Actually he's right for the majority of people I talk to in game about it. I know there was a forum poll that says otherwise but in game that is what I meet the most.
You must hang around a lot of PvPers . . .
myles08807 said, "Back in my day, we didn't have any of this fancy Mulhorand gear while we were leveling . . . we walked uphill both ways while dying once every five seconds while leveling, and we liked it fine!" . . . Now, get off my lawn, you kids!"
pointsman said, "I don't rue the game. In fact I don't feel any regret for the game at all."
looomis said, "I don't like people changing to alts and then bragging about their mains like schizophrenic role players."
I used to hate PvP with a passion. Not just because of the toxic people playing but because my AC DCs would get perma-stunned, floated in the air, frozen and paralysed and I would be dead in 3 seconds every time I left the camp fire. I also was not very good at it and my first character was level 60 before I even realised how the scoring worked. Some matches, my team were the top five on the scoreboard, but lost the match by 300 points! Huh?
Then I understood about holding points and team cohesion. Sometimes, my AC Healer would back cap from the camp fire, just to stop them scoring for a little while. Even though I know she will die as soon as even ONE of the enemy turn up, on a few occasions she slowed their scoring down enough to just steal a win in a close match.
So I made a new character, a Dwarf DO Berserker Battle Cleric and I Feated and Geared him for max Damage and Divinity Regain so his best Healing is from Soothing Light with Cycle of Change, and gave him as much Power, Crit and ArPen as I could. And I kept his gear up to level with AH Blues. Stacked STR and WIS, 17 CON with Campfire bonus.
MASSIVE difference. In PUG matches, he sometimes got as many as 17 kills and won the gear prize. He only needs 31 TRIPLE KILLS to get his 10th achievement. My Healer AC has zero TRIPLE KILLS and only 4 DOUBLE KILLS. I do not think she will EVER get her 10 achievements in the PvP campaign.
I really think that DCs should get some special bonus for Healing assists, as only being able to progress by kill-rate is a permanent handicap on the entire class if you are specced for Healing and Buffing, rather than Damage and Debuffing.
But that all changed when my Dwarf hit level 60. He was suddenly hopelessly outmatched by the other level 60s as he had only blue gear. But after grinding all the Arena PvP events, he got enough Glory for a full set of Profound Righteous and a 15k GS. Even killed a few GF, GWF, TR and HR 1 vs 1. But NEVER a CW.
I still get teamed with 2 DC, 2 TR and a CW against two GWF, two CW and an HR, so we have no chance, really. But I have noticed that if I do Arena Events between 4 and 8 AM GMT, I tend to get teamed against low gear teams from Europe. From about 11 AM to midnight, they tend to be very heavily geared and enchanted teams from the States, with Voice Chat active. Active Voice Chat REALLY makes a difference. I only played one PvP match where one of us had Voice Chat, and he shouted warnings about enemies behind me so I could dodge in time. Even though I could not see it coming, I just dodged and spun round.
There are undoubtedly balances needed as since Mod 4 went active, my Dwarf's CC Resist seems to do nothing at all. I get frozen, stunned, choked, floated in the air and hp drained in 3 to 5 seconds as badly as my AC Healer ever did. And I unleashed a blue Daunting Light with Nimbus of Light followed by Hammer of Fate on a GF, and I killed MYSELF due to the broken Enchant. So fixing that is not a nerf, it's a fix for something broken.
Another thing is that GWFs and Guardians should always be susceptible to missile fire. That should be their major disadvantage, as a sniper from above in Hotenow (whether HR, CW, TR or even a DC) can not be reached by a melee character unless they run up there and bash them.
Related to this would be a fix to a GWF stunning and proning me from horseback 20 or 30 feet away. That is ridiculous. A two-handed weapon has a reach of 10 feet, so they should have to be up REAL CLOSE to hit anyone. Not stun them from 30 feet away. That is why they have the advantage of better armour and better damage - they have to be up CLOSE and have no missile or ranged powers.
But, yes, you need Gear and you should need Skill to play PvP. It's always more fun to have a good, close match. Being stomped into the dust or doing the stomping is no fun. I don't want to win 1000 to 43 any more than I want to lose by 43 to 1000.
Even when I get killed easily, I keep going out there as if I die in melee within 10 or 15 seconds, it's a lot more fun than dying in 3 seconds. In fact, I usually laugh out loud if I am killed by someone better then me.
But being perma-stunned and paralysed and losing all 28k hp in 3 seconds could never be fun for anyone. With the new Stun replacing Prone, I cannot even WALK, let alone dodge. At least before I could WALK out of the way when stunned, even if my keyboard was locked out and I could not dodge. Now, I am just a sitting duck.
And that enchant that multiplies my own damage and throws it back at me? Must be broken.
~
You completely undermine the importance of balancing. Do you really think all of these gaming companies would spend so much effort into balancing if it was as simple as "learn to deal with it". Obviously skill plays a part in it, but people can have skill and imbalances which add up. Using the same logic you could say that trs are fine in pve, they just need to l2p. I mean sure they can do fine and I wouldn't purposefully leave out a guildie tr that wanted to play, but noone would really go looking for them especially.
Did he try as a sentinel?
I think a lot of GWFs are still playing the same way they did before. I'm not saying speccing sent would've made the difference, but there are some pretty big changes to GWF and it might take awhile for everyone to get used to them.
I mean, I still see some GWFs using Roar even though the skill is basically useless now.
In any case, HRs are far from "a God" at PVP. There's as many HRs as there are GWFs on the top two pages (4 each) right now, and I know that at least one of those HRs is using the legendary token, giving him cc-immunity which is the HR's weak spot.
As for the OP, I've never played a game that had such dramatic swings in balance as Neverwinter. When they change stuff, they always try something new and dramatic, and it often ends up being more OP then the thing they were trying to change.
PVP players have a right to want fair games, where everyone is able to contribute and play a role.
If one were cynical, one might suspect Cryptic does these huge changes every 3 months to sell zen, because people need to change classes if they want to be effective, which means lots of AD/Zen spent on new artifacts, leveling etc.
Pvp is not and will never be the main focus of this game. And don't even get me started about pvp in D&D (wizard vs fighter, yeah sure).
Be content with what you have and don't ruin skills and classes with baseless cries for balance. Pve is and will always be the centerpiece of a D&D game.