PVP and balance: A Perspective

demonmonger

Please remember that there is no way to balance pvp with people that have an assortment of gears and skills that are at different levels of power and defence.

No matter what is done to so called balance the game, you will always have a player go in that is under geared or over geared into combat and get squashed or dominate all.

Just enjoy the game and stop asking for others to be weakened because you have not found the way to defeat them yet.

If you have 21-25khp and the person you are fighting has 45k-60khp, do not expect to just blow them out of the water.

If you want to ask who is breaking the game, just go look in the mirror.

You are the guilty ones.

I know you want to win. I know you want to dominate everything in your path. But how boring would it be if you always won? Would it even be worth playing?

Many of you also are now complaining that MOD 4 is broken. Did you stop and think that if you were not all complaining about our old balance that the Developers could have done even more amazing things in MOD 4? Did you stop and think that if you guys had helped test on shard server and reported bugs quickly (without constantly crying for nerfs) that you would not be suffering like you are now?

You are causing the downfall of this game.

sexwax45

demonmonger wrote: »

Please remember that there is no way to balance pvp with people that have an assortment of gears and skills that are at different levels of power and defence.

No matter what is done to so called balance the game, you will always have a player go in that is under geared or over geared into combat and get squashed or dominate all.

Just enjoy the game and stop asking for others to be weakened because you have not found the way to defeat them yet.

If you have 21-25khp and the person you are fighting has 45k-60khp, do not expect to just blow them out of the water.

If you want to ask who is breaking the game, just go look in the mirror.

You are the guilty ones.

I know you want to win. I know you want to dominate everything in your path. But how boring would it be if you always won? Would it even be worth playing?

Many of you also are now complaining that MOD 4 is broken. Did you stop and think that if you were not all complaining about our old balance that the Developers could have done even more amazing things in MOD 4? Did you stop and think that if you guys had helped test on shard server and reported bugs quickly (without constantly crying for nerfs) that you would not be suffering like you are now?

You are causing the downfall of this game.

+1 to this, those PVP whiners are ruining the game.

harkur

1:1 PvP balancing, in a multi-class MMO.

Even attempting the above is one of the surest paths to broken overall balance and wrecked PvE balance there is. In fact, I don't know a more reliable way to screw up classes short of actually sitting down at a roundtable discussion with the specific intent of ruining your own game.

People need to get over the "That WonderWizard melted my BowBoy and therefore WonderWizards are OP" mindset. One class will never be balanced against another specific class in a game that isn't an e-sport with 1:1 matches as the default ranking system. Nor should they be.

ansuz4221

demonmonger wrote: »

Please remember that there is no way to balance pvp with people that have an assortment of gears and skills that are at different levels of power and defence.

No matter what is done to so called balance the game, you will always have a player go in that is under geared or over geared into combat and get squashed or dominate all.

Just enjoy the game and stop asking for others to be weakened because you have not found the way to defeat them yet.

If you have 21-25khp and the person you are fighting has 45k-60khp, do not expect to just blow them out of the water.

If you want to ask who is breaking the game, just go look in the mirror.

You are the guilty ones.

I know you want to win. I know you want to dominate everything in your path. But how boring would it be if you always won? Would it even be worth playing?

Many of you also are now complaining that MOD 4 is broken. Did you stop and think that if you were not all complaining about our old balance that the Developers could have done even more amazing things in MOD 4? Did you stop and think that if you guys had helped test on shard server and reported bugs quickly (without constantly crying for nerfs) that you would not be suffering like you are now?

You are causing the downfall of this game.

also +1 (though I could not try Mod 4 yet), at the beginning everyone is losing most of the time, but it's not that hard to get at least some glory for one or two pieces of PVP gear. And then you notice that surviving becomes easier. At first I just wanted to get the ravenskull but now I'm having doing PVP from time to time (with a PVE DC). Especially when the match ends with just 8 points difference. That's the most fun no matter who wins

ixalmaris

Just because it is a impossible goal it doesn't mean that the game doesn't have to try to achieve it. The question is "Is PvP in Mod4 more balanced than in Mod3?".
I can't answer that, but a game with PvP content must never stop trying to improve PvP balance.

melodywhr

i can't help but commend the OP here. reporting class imbalance without data (combat logs, ACT logs, build data, gear data) is anecdotal at best. i'm not saying that there isn't a possibility of imbalance, but without providing some kind of proof outside of your own statistical analysis, it just seems like unsubstantiated complaints.

myowmyow

Further support of this argument is that if you play real DnD, the classes are not balanced. Some have advanatges over others. It is simply the nature of the class differences.

Additionally, as the moderator suggested, you need to provided documented evidence of the imbalance, otherwise it is simply whining.

If changes ARE made by the Devs for the sake of PvP, the changes should be made in the PvP events ONLY, not to class as a whole! This part is critical to maintain the PvE portion of the game.

yperkeimenos

demonmonger wrote: »

Please remember that there is no way to balance pvp with people that have an assortment of gears and skills that are at different levels of power and defence.

No matter what is done to so called balance the game, you will always have a player go in that is under geared or over geared into combat and get squashed or dominate all.

Just enjoy the game and stop asking for others to be weakened because you have not found the way to defeat them yet.

If you have 21-25khp and the person you are fighting has 45k-60khp, do not expect to just blow them out of the water.

If you want to ask who is breaking the game, just go look in the mirror.

You are the guilty ones.

I know you want to win. I know you want to dominate everything in your path. But how boring would it be if you always won? Would it even be worth playing?

Many of you also are now complaining that MOD 4 is broken. Did you stop and think that if you were not all complaining about our old balance that the Developers could have done even more amazing things in MOD 4? Did you stop and think that if you guys had helped test on shard server and reported bugs quickly (without constantly crying for nerfs) that you would not be suffering like you are now?

You are causing the downfall of this game.

+1 on that,totally agree that whining is worse than anything.Instead of people asking for their class to be buffed they ask for other classes to be nerfed. I've said it before and I'll say it again : It's like asking for your neighbors house to burn down because you don't own one like it. Instead of working hard to get one like it,or even better,you ask to see it burn.That is mean and evil.

harkur

ixalmaris wrote: »

Just because it is a impossible goal it doesn't mean that the game doesn't have to try to achieve it.

Yes it does, it means exactly that. The PvP balance that matters...in MMOs that are not 1:1 arena based e-sports...is how groups of players are balanced against other groups of players. That is the only balance that matters, that should matter, and that can even be done effectively without eliminating classes and gear altogether so that everyone plays with the same offensive and defensive capabilities.

mystagogue

My take on PvP in MMO's is that it should always be wholly even - when you step into the PvP arena everyone has the same stats, powers and gear. That way, it's strictly "skillz" v "skillz". At that point you have massive qq from the PvP community, who, at their core want NOTHING to do with balance...

twilightwatchman

demonmonger wrote: »

Did you stop and think that if you guys had helped test on shard server and reported bugs quickly (without constantly crying for nerfs) that you would not be suffering like you are now?

I agree with most of your post, but there was PLENTY of testing done on Preview, PLENTY of feedback that included data (screenshots, ACT parses, etc.), and PLENTY of bug reports. A lot of that feedback appears to have been ignored.

linoge63

sexwax45 wrote: »

+1 to this, those PVP whiners are ruining the game.

I completely concur

Ive said it before and will say it again, D&D is really for PWP (players with players cooperating and bringing together the differences in how each power is expressed to aid one another in acquiring gear etc and achieving milestones)

PVP should have their own center of activity completely outside of PVE with PVP gear that satisfies those that want to experience what it is to win based on strategy etc, not gear and the complexity that exists in an environment designed for cooperation.

PVP'ers ....try swordsmen...there youll find perfect boring BALANCE

captsplinky

+1 to OP
I still miss those 4 daggers...because 12 is too OP for PVP

deus69xxx

Fantastically, PvP balancing doesn't have to affect PvE. If these game designers would stop thinking that both have to be the same, you wouldn't have to worry about it. I've elaborated elsewhere on what little work would be needed to change that, so I'm not doing it again, but until they do some incredibly deep number crunching on their side to figure out how much something should be doing considering it's class skills, and then implement them in both PvE and PvP, then there will be anger from classes whose CC skills don't last as long, whose damage isn't high enough, or a class that uses two skills and dominates 5v1... The whining won't stop until they figure out how to code things properly for PvP vs PvE.

And I desperately hope this isn't a GWF starting this who doesn't feel he's got the most epic place in a dungeon group after the mod 4 release. Because when the SW's start getting really geared, dungeon groups are going to consist of 5 SW. There will be no room of CW's, HR's, GF's, DC's, CW's, GWF's... Every SW I've talked to so far is saying: "We're SO getting nerfed lol"...

lewstelamon01

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crixus8000

The only people who aren't bothered by class balance are the ones who are bad at pvp or play the best class.

People spend money on this game so it should be balanced, no one class should be able to beat another.

My friend who is an 18k very strong gwf player tested against my NEW HR char in icewind and I killed him easy, he couldn't touch me and my hr is only 12.5k gs, is that fair ? a guy spends money and time on this game and I can beat him with a char that I have only just got to icewind with, lol ok then.

It is not hard to make classes balanced. Yes they should have differences but one class should not be king of pvp, they should all be equals but require different skills.

tripsofthrymr

+1, PvP "crying" is not very helpful.

However, the pendulum does swing rather far with each major update.

I have at least one of each class, with similar gear, and the character I elect to PvP with changes with each major release specifically because of new imbalances introduced. Sometimes it is due to a bug (Roar, HR armor set), sometimes just due to major changes in class feats (LOTS of CW's have discovered the virtues of Sudden Storm in PvP since Mod 4).

I would strongly suggest that future changes to class balance be more subtle (smaller corrections), and more frequent. Corrections should be informed by data that only the developers have access to (across all players, which class(es) are substantially out-performing other classes in PvP) in addition to specific, data-backed problems pointed out by the community. Hopefully by the system designers will also spend a fair amount of time themselves in PvP.

harkur

tripsofthrymr wrote: »

+1, PvP "crying" is not very helpful.

However, the pendulum does swing rather far with each major update.

I have at least one of each class, with similar gear, and the character I elect to PvP with changes with each major release specifically because of new imbalances introduced. Sometimes it is due to a bug (Roar, HR armor set), sometimes just due to major changes in class feats (LOTS of CW's have discovered the virtues of Sudden Storm in PvP since Mod 4).

I would strongly suggest that future changes to class balance be more subtle (smaller corrections), and more frequent. Corrections should be informed by data that only the developers have access to (across all players, which class(es) are substantially out-performing other classes in PvP) in addition to specific, data-backed problems pointed out by the community. Hopefully by the system designers will also spend a fair amount of time themselves in PvP.

And now...once again...someone calls for PvP balance in a vacuum. Until PvP has an entirely separate stat/skill/armor set from PvE it can't happen like that. Yes, PvE balance is just one variable in the balance equation. It's also the biggest one.

sexwax45

Why don't they make a PVP server like the test server where everyone can do the same damage wear the same gear and shoot rainbows out the arses that will solve the dilemma, and leave all of us playing the game it was intended in peace.

demonmonger

twilightwatchman wrote: »

I agree with most of your post, but there was PLENTY of testing done on Preview, PLENTY of feedback that included data (screenshots, ACT parses, etc.), and PLENTY of bug reports. A lot of that feedback appears to have been ignored.

My comment only meant that if the developers were not inundated with all these nerf this nerf that cries then they could focus 100% on mod 4 content stuff without the "adjustments" that the nerf puppies are requesting. It is not that your bug reports were ignored, it is that there are only so many hours in the day, yet 1000000000 complaints about simple problems that can be solved just by switching your daily/encounter skills and learning to play better.

akemnos

sexwax45 wrote: »

Why don't they make a PVP server like the test server where everyone can do the same damage wear the same gear and shoot rainbows out the arses that will solve the dilemma, and leave all of us playing the game it was intended in peace.

People participating in PVP are playing the game as intended. PVP is in the game, whether in an instance or open world, and is just as much part of the game overall as PVE. Just because you do not like or participate in PVP does not mean that it was not intended for the game.

celticgamer0

In DnD wizards are supposed to be OP and rogues are supposed to kill quick. Fighters are supposed to be able to handle damage and clerics have their own benefits as well. Traditional DnD is player versus DM (aka PvE) do not nerf the classes, return them how they are meant to be played and do what many other MMO's do and give three separate servers; PvE, PvP, and PvE/PvP. It will save on a lot of headaches and whining and will give the PvPers their own ways of acquiring gear so they do not have to 'suffer' doing PvE unless they desire to do so. I have tried PvP and did not like it, but that is me. All of my builds are PvE friendly.

demonmonger

Table top DnD players know how different each class has to be played in order to be successful.
MMO players expect to win in all cases no matter what.
Blending DnD with MMO nerf puppies will always bring headaches to everyone involved with the games the nerf puppies join.
All it takes is one nerf puppy to start crying, then the normal chill cool collected MMO players get infected with the nerf puppy syndrome.
Pretty soon everyone is crying to have someone nerfed because someone had their class ruined.
It's a sick twisted form of player vs player manipulative payback.

Why can't you nerf puppies be more like Dr Claw and say I'll get you next time Gadget NEXT TIME!!! (laughs)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_2_cJxYYhM

Think of ways to play better, not ways to destroy the game.
This is all I am asking.

akemnos

celticgamer0 wrote: »

In DnD wizards are supposed to be OP and rogues are supposed to kill quick. Fighters are supposed to be able to handle damage and clerics have their own benefits as well. Traditional DnD is player versus DM (aka PvE) do not nerf the classes, return them how they are meant to be played and do what many other MMO's do and give three separate servers; PvE, PvP, and PvE/PvP. It will save on a lot of headaches and whining and will give the PvPers their own ways of acquiring gear so they do not have to 'suffer' doing PvE unless they desire to do so. I have tried PvP and did not like it, but that is me. All of my builds are PvE friendly.

Seperating to 3 different servers is a bad idea for numbers. IF I am in a pvp/pve server than I have now lost 66% of the possible population to play with (given if all servers had the same population). Neverwinter just doesn't have a large enough population for them to be able to do this, which was also one of the reasons they merged all of the original servers into one.

yperkeimenos

celticgamer0 wrote: »

In DnD wizards are supposed to be OP and rogues are supposed to kill quick. Fighters are supposed to be able to handle damage and clerics have their own benefits as well. Traditional DnD is player versus DM (aka PvE) do not nerf the classes, return them how they are meant to be played and do what many other MMO's do and give three separate servers; PvE, PvP, and PvE/PvP. It will save on a lot of headaches and whining and will give the PvPers their own ways of acquiring gear so they do not have to 'suffer' doing PvE unless they desire to do so. I have tried PvP and did not like it, but that is me. All of my builds are PvE friendly.

Totally agree with that suggestion.Have separate servers,but i don't see it happening any time soon.

ixalmaris

harkur wrote: »

Yes it does, it means exactly that.

No, it doesn't. In the company I work for there is a saying which is sometimes attributed to its founder (the internet lists it under two different peope). "When you stop trying to improve, you have stopped being good".

The same applies here. The moment a game stops improving the PvP balance the PvP game falls apart.

melodywhr

twilightwatchman wrote: »

I agree with most of your post, but there was PLENTY of testing done on Preview, PLENTY of feedback that included data (screenshots, ACT parses, etc.), and PLENTY of bug reports. A lot of that feedback appears to have been ignored.

the keyword being feedback.

providing feedback does not quantify into automatic changes. there may be other internal decisions at play that we're not privy to.

demonmonger

ixalmaris wrote: »

No, it doesn't. In the company I work for there is a saying which is sometimes attributed to its founder (the internet lists it under two different peope). "When you stop trying to improve, you have stopped being good".

The same applies here. The moment a game stops improving the PvP balance the PvP game falls apart.

I am not saying for the game to not improve (content wise).
You are trying to say that PVP balance needs to be improved.
I agree that players that pvp need to improve their playing styles.
I disagree that pvp skills need to be constantly reworked for people that fail to utilize current skills properly.
Players need to improve .. end of story.

melodywhr

akemnos wrote: »

Neverwinter just doesn't have a large enough population for them to be able to do this, which was also one of the reasons they merged all of the original servers into one.

neverwinter's initial three shards were always meant to be merged. it was not a decision made based on population. this information is in the extended FAQ.

http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?18401-Neverwinter-Extended-FAQ-Now-with-Feywild-Pack-Info!&p=297631&viewfull=1#post297631

vteasy

This was tested on preview, reported on feedback and unfortunately made it live. Some of the biggest unbalances were added the last 2 weeks before launch. This isn't a l2p issue, it is a "will get patched" issue. Good points in the OP but that doesn't apply to a few of the things going on in pvp right now. Give it a patch or two and it should calm down. If you don't know what these are then there is nothing I can do to help. These aren't small things they are glaring.

reiwulf

I don't care about differences in 1 against 1, it's normal that some classes have advantages against others, I like it like that.
BUT I think there's a problem when 1 class dominates all the others in PVP. That's when I think things need to be balanced out.
But it's still to soon to see things in Mod4 lots of classes got lots of changes and enw builds have to be made to accomodate to these changes. Then we'll know how balanced/unbalanced it is now.