it seems to me that this is a poor way to ballance things out.
Basically what you are doing is making classes weaker in all aspects of the game to suit 1 particular aspect of the game. This is fail.
Instead of " dialing back " classes, why don't you implement a dual-spec mechanic.
One spec that is only usable in PVE, and the other that is only usable in PVP, that way you can balance a PVP spec, without having to nerf PVE players.
The changes i have seen proposed across several classes to balance PVP essentially screws PVE only players. This type of change, is the same reason many people left other games such as WoW.
If you don't intend on keeping PVP and PVE seperate, you will eventually paint yourselves into a corner so to speak when it comes to balancing out the gameplay.
Feedback Swordmaster: swordmaster definitely needs some buffs:
Weapon Master Strike - 200-300% dmg boost+marking ability, right now dmg of that at will is laughable
Flourish - need faster animation and CC immunity during cast, the skill itself is too slow to hit anything and on top of that u can get CCed in middle of the animation
Steel Blitz - this class feature needs higher % chance to activate
and steely defense needs to be fixed... having a 66% control resist in pvp and still getting stuned ?
Most of ppl dont look at the whole picture here, there are ways for a new destroyer to endure, both in pvp and in pve, everyone just look at the current best offencive powers that most gwfs use(takedown, fls, ibs). Till these changes gwf was the only all around complete class whitch had everything covered: survivability, huge damage, extreme speed, range, CC, CC imunity. Everithing, so players didnt had think of anything particular that can harm them. thing is there are some gwf powers that go great with unstopable nerf if u can just drop some damage output.Lets start:
Pve: all u have to do here is drop only 1 damage encounter u used before (not so fast? takedown?) and use Pushing charge, and there u go, u have a dodge ability like every other class that will make u avoid damage in full. If dont like it or u think u cant time it good, dont worry there is a power called daring shout. This power roughly gives u around 20/30 DR depending from ur oponents+ it fills ur unstopable meter very fast.
Pvp: first, hit and run tactic. u drop 1 encounter (FLS)and use battle fury that will buff ur ap gain and damage, and what its best it will refill ur stamina so u can run away fast when poping unstopable, so just run to ur oponent do battle fury, then standart takedown+ ibs + daily then run away if its needed. And again u can use pushing charge as a dodge ability if u dont like battle fury. i thing destroyer can be ok even with current most used powers if its buffed in def stats.
There are ways for a destroyer ppl just look at it with current most use skills. I like the unstopable change, what i dont like is the rest of the changes on takedown, fls, treath rush and sprint, that should stay unchanged. Ok i hope ppl will think again when saying that destroyer is useless now in pvp and pve, its a great change dor balancing this game and for implementing other classes in game like the old forgoten GF, DC, and gwf sentinels.
Steel Grace: Steel Grace is still bugged for PvP. GWFs do not get any bonus from it. All CC powers (CW's, HR's and DC's) i tested so far on him had the same duration both with and without Steel Grace slotted .
So Suggestion to Steel Grace Why not give Steel Grace all the feats which GWFs has right now if it is sloted? (prones on Takedown and Roar, +30% damage resistance on unstop and 30% of Tenacity on PVP, not just 30% control resist on PvE)
FEEDBACK THREATENING RUSH:
I am a GWF player myself and i have to say that it was good to nerf the threatening rush, but i think this was a little too much.
I personally could think about a cooldown for every target so you can jump on one target only once every 3 seconds for example.
FEEDBACK UNSTOPPABLE:
The unstoppable nerf however was way too much, because now i need to throw away all of the damage feats to still survive in pve, because he lost his core ability too tank AND do damage in a fight.
The damage resistance was the key to being able to engage every figtht and wait for the CW's singularity (now even more limited number of targets) to kill them all at once.
So the nerf makes him more squishy and changes the playstyle a lot.
Its pretty easy to outplay any gwf, because you just have to stop using your skills while hes unstoppable and prone him before he can reactivate it.
FEEDBACK FS + TAKEDOWN:
And the nerf of FS and Takedown is pretty hard, especially for takedown. FS was always a OP ability but this makes it too weak right now and i ld prefer a nerf for the range and maybe the time of the prone, because now a GWF has no ability to prone another gwf in order to stop him from going unstoppable .
I think an easy way to fix things, without really having to majorly nerf anything is change:
"Focused Destroyer" Just change this from a 25% chance to proc off any attack plus stacks give you additional damage to JUST the pure damage boost.
This wont hurt it much for PVE, but takes away this feat for PVP.
This feat accounts for about a 38%+ damage boost.
THEN with the changes to roar/takedown/FLS/Threat Rush/Unstop Recovery etc I honestly dont think you even need to nerf Unstoppable...
This will STILL accomplish your goal of having two distinct paths - Sentinel is MUCH tankier than Destroyer. But Destroyer has alot more damage.
I think people HEAVILY under-estimate the tankiness Roar brought to Destroyer GWFs because of the stun + Determination gain... Even just slotting out to frontline surge removes a BIG determination gain and makes them much more squishy. So the stun removal on Roar is going to be HUGE.
Not only that, but unstoppable recovery is now cut in half due to healing depression. Which is HUGE.
Not only that, but takedown damage is nerfed AND takedown no longer prones - making it REALLY hard to get IBS off.
Not only that but Threat Rush is nerfed so GWFs cant chain that around.
FEEDBACK THREATENING RUSH:
I am a GWF player myself and i have to say that it was good to nerf the threatening rush, but i think this was a little too much.
I personally could think about a cooldown for every target so you can jump on one target only once every 3 seconds for example.
FEEDBACK UNSTOPPABLE:
The unstoppable nerf however was way too much, because now i need to throw away all of the damage feats to still survive in pve, because he lost his core ability too tank AND do damage in a fight.
The damage resistance was the key to being able to engage every figtht and wait for the CW's singularity (now even more limited number of targets) to kill them all at once.
So the nerf makes him more squishy and changes the playstyle a lot.
Its pretty easy to outplay any gwf, because you just have to stop using your skills while hes unstoppable and prone him before he can reactivate it.
FEEDBACK FS + TAKEDOWN:
And the nerf of FS and Takedown is pretty hard, especially for takedown. FS was always a OP ability but this makes it too weak right now and i ld prefer a nerf for the range and maybe the time of the prone, because now a GWF has no ability to prone another gwf in order to stop him from going unstoppable .
CONTEXT and the problems:
I understand separating tank and dps builds in pve. But, there are 2 huge problems with the current changes. Sprinting has no dodge, meaning we HAVE to make it all the way out of the attack area. Currently, this is impossible if we started an attack just before the red area appeared. Secondly, if somebody else is tanking and/or we do not intentionally eat red, we can't maintain unstoppable and the capstone stacks that are a CRUCIAL part of destroyers PVE damage.
SUGGESTIONS to make the new destroyer PVE viable:
Make sprint instantly cancel any attack in progress (especially wicked strike. Just add a "cooldown" to make animation cancel attacks impossible) to make dodging a realistic option, AND increase the destroyer capstone feat determination build from damage dealt significantly (So we can actually use it to maintain the damage stacks, EVEN when somebody else is tanking (such as sentinel or GF).
These changes would make a pure PVE DPS GWF playable, as they would allow us to deal damage and survive without the damage "immunity" from unstoppable.
Did this to the Guardian Fighter Thread, I have posted how the patch notes SHOULD read. Please consider. Changes are in BLUE below.
General
Determination gain will no longer be subject to variance. This will make Determination gain more normalized.
Powers
Mark: Mark will now taunt foes briefly as well as place the player at the top of the threat list.
Roar: This power has been fixed to no longer silence opponents for 2 seconds. Instead it correctly interrupts power usage. If a power is successfully interrupted, that power will be locked out for 2 seconds. This effect will no longer pierce CC immunity. Roar will no longer Root players for 2 seconds.
Unstoppable: Unstoppable now grants 15~30% damage resist when activated (down from 25~50%)
Takedown: This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs.
Takedown: This power now deals ~10% less damage.
Iron Vanguard: Frontline Surge: This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs.
Iron Vanguard: Threatening Rush: This power now has 3 charges which COMPLETELY refresh every 9 seconds.
Feats
[*]Focused Destroyer:*REMOVED* % chance to proc off ANY attack. This feat still increases bonus damage per stack and has an *ADDED* .2/.4/.6/.8/1 sec longer duration for Destroyer Stacks.
[*]Sentinel's Aegis: This feat now also grants Unstoppable additional benefits of 25-50% DR depending on determination. (re-worded is all) [*]Allied Opportunity: *REWORKED* This feat now grants a 5/10/15/20/25% damage boost to Mighty Leap and Not so Fast. Additionally, Mighty Leap now stuns all targets in the area for .2/.4/.6/.8/1 second and Not So Fast slows targets by an additional 3/6/9/12/15%.
[*]Instagator's Vengeance: *REWORKED* This feat now gives a damage bonus of 25% for 3 seconds after receiving damage.
[/QUOTE]
Just tested in preview and i don't like my GWF at all. If you want to keep that DR for unstoppable you should think about AP generation now, in order to survive and help your party in dungeons. I think GFs are going to die in seconds while trying to hold aggro from everything since their shield only blocks 80% incomming damage and DCs don't have an extended astral shield to protect players everywhere, think about the cooldown from powers too. Additionally you have to rework Avalanche Daily: Maybe it's time to bring a function for pressing 1 to cast and 1 to impact the targets, so we don't lose time when fighting, if you notice when using Avalanche you lose all Destroyer stacks.
If you want to keep these changes it's time to increase AP generation to balance the GWF in overview considering PVP and PVE.
First off, Destroyer class feature is a MAIN reason GWFs can hit so hard, it currently provides about a 40% damage boost, which if you see in my patch notes, I removed the % chance to gain from ANY attack putting this BACK to "you must attack 3 or more people" to gain the stack. With this feat gone, the only damage boosts youll see to takedown are the 40% dmg boost from the capstone.
All of that combined is what gets takedown to the insane damage it is now. Nerfing the skill isnt whats needed, its nerfing the +damage bonuses.
So if you remove the ~40% damage from destroyer, you ALREADY are giving takedown a HUGE nerf so that 10-12k takedown (which BTW is only with debuffs) just turned into a 7k takedown.
A 7-8k takedown crit turned into a 5k crit. Which is pretty much inline with what it should be.
The skills are NOT the issue, the destroyer capstone isnt the issue, its the Focused Destroyer Class feature COMBINED with the capstone that is giving such massive damage boosts.
TO give another example. Here is the current readings on my BASE tooltip for IBS: 4545-5450. Note this is with zero buffs.
Now lets add JUST the Focused Destroyer feat: 6518 - 7816 You can see how BIG a DPS boost this gives.
NOW lets add the destroyer capstone stacks: 9,126 - 10,942.
NOW ontop of ALL of that, lets add the 10% encounter dmg boost WHILE in unstoppable. 9,708 - 11,640[/I
So to say this again, ALL of these damage feats took my tootip FROM (top end) 5450 TO 11,640.
So when you say nerf takedown, I hope you see, its not the SKILL that needs a nerf, its these insanely HUGE damage boosts you get from other places.
The DEVs gave us these damage boosts in mod 3, and NOW to compensate because people complain (and rightfully so) about these crazy takedown crits or crazy IBS crits, they dont understand HOW they get those crits and ask for the wrong changes, which brings us to these mod 4 changes.
THE SOLUTION: Remove the Focused Destroyer ability to get stacks off ANY hit. This will cut ALL Destroyers top end damage by ALOT.
TO show this, at MAX capacity I dropped this ONE feat off my bar and here is the NEW MAX top end with Unstoppable Capstone+Unstoppable damage boost up:
7301-8754 Which is about a 33% reduction.
So IN CONCUSION:
Dont nerf the skills, that just hurts the other builds, nerf the damage boosts to bring this inline, but only for single target DPS which means this feat still stays in play for PVE.
THE SOLUTION: Remove the Focused Destroyer ability to get stacks off ANY hit. This will cut ALL Destroyers top end damage by ALOT.
[/COLOR]
100% disagree with this idea mi amigo.
The damage does not need to be cut, let alone with the current Unstoppable change. Yes I know you are advocating increasing the percentage, however the damage Destroyer's do is fine where it is after being fixed with Deep Gash cuts come Mod 3.
We can agree to disagree of course, however I'm for every change they have suggested aside from Unstoppable as it's a bit too steep. Aside from that GWFs are fine with the current changes. Changes to our DPS is not going to solve anything IMO.
The damage does not need to be cut, let alone with the current Unstoppable change. Yes I know you are advocating increasing the percentage, however the damage Destroyer's do is fine where it is after being fixed with Deep Gash cuts come Mod 3.
We can agree to disagree of course, however I'm for every change they have suggested aside from Unstoppable as it's a bit too steep. Aside from that GWFs are fine with the current changes. Changes to our DPS is not going to solve anything IMO.
Well to be frank, I agree with you in that damage should be kept up since they have completely removed the GWFs ability to catch anything.
If, however, the tradeoff is between Unstoppable at its current % BECAUSE Destroyers deal too much damage, id rather give up some damage and gain unstoppable back.
Again, Ive said many times in this thread, and hopefully DEVs listen. The nerf to Roar/Unstoppable Recovery(now respects healing depression), the nerf to threat ruch will ALL make the GWF much much squishier - probably more than people realize.
Now with Roar stun gone, takedown WAS the only real way to get an IBS off, since thats gone now too, I think its Kudos if a GWF can even land an IBS with 3 destroyer stacks plus 20 stacks of the capstone up.
IMO though, takedown to a stun, frontline to a stun, and Unstoppable nerf were WAY overboard.
IMO though, takedown to a stun, frontline to a stun, and Unstoppable nerf were WAY overboard.
Combined? Yes sir!
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fr3akout3Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 72
edited June 2014
Tested on Preview Shard with H3adache, Unstoppable is a joke now.
It does not reduce any damage at all, can't even notice. It seems like the DESTROYER should be renamed to Big Chicken from now on.
Devs, if you listen. Please change Unstoppable back to where it was for PVE or at least 15-35% minimum. You can have it at 5-10% for PVP is you wish.
You have simply killed the class, as the GWF is not going to be useful as he has. He will be running and hiding where the TR's will perform a better job by the looks of it now. Unstoppable needs to be reworked and the damage should not be changed in any way for the GWF as you need to build it anyway which makes it now so much harder as you need to maintain it and build it by having petty much no Unstoppable at all. Just a Big Balloon GWF
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lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
edited June 2014
Just remove the life steal or give a very hard diminishing return to it like 2k = 5% and both GF/DC will be very useful in dungeons, one of them absorbing damage, the other one healing and protecting, HR buffs would be more desirable too, reduce the amount of healing granted by every potion. This would mark a enormous difference. Reduce unstoppable just enough to make a difference between Destroyer and Sentinel.
And this is good! Now as the name sugest it is DESTROYER and his role is DPS, he can"t has big dps and big survivability this is ridiculous. Sentinel def destroyer dmg, now destro will need DC shield and buffs to stay alive, this is good change, at last end of immortals GWFs, now it is how it should to be.
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lenchikpenchikMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 1
Feedback
We need to collect as much feedback as possible on this so we can tweak the feel and effects of performance in PVP.
Chris “Gentleman_Crush” Meyer
Well, here it goes. PvP. You should, no, must keep takedown at least to prone if not a lot of damage, at least not for a long time, because it's cool! Here's why: When I tried to pvp before lvl 15 on GWF, I felt like a CW without ranged attacks. Basically, I died MORE than anybody else. So if you're trying to fix the class, don't nerf everything of it! That's why this game is so good, because you can shift, and knock prone WITH a skill, and not randomly. Don't make this game stupid like all other stupid games, evolve it, not DEVOLVE it. And don't nerf stealth on the tr whenever you plan to do it, there's a game where they will never nerf permanent stealth, or prones on thie GWFs, hint.
On test shard take down doesn't even stun. Frontline prones.
P.S.: I don't care much about Determination, keep the feat for it in Sentinel's Aegis for PvE. But instead of nerfing powerful classes of cool skills, you should make other classes more powerful for PvE and PvP! Keep CW and GWF as is, nerf HR Pathfinder paragon a little bit (it is too OP, it takes 2 GWFs to kill them usually). Give more power to other classes for PvE, maybe some skills to Area of Effect to rogues, hunters, guardians.
Well here's my two cents, so if you don't want this game to become 8 bit, you should consider it.
This has been scaled back a little too much. Again this comes down to PVP balance affecting PVE. Same can be said of Threatening Rush, however, in this case GWFs in PVP have negatively impacted on GFs in PVE.
Back to Unstoppable, I'd reconsider the extent of the nerf. Bear in mind that CWs will have less control and deal less damage, so like the GF the GWF will be taking more damage. I'd say 15 - 25% would be a fair middle ground.
You guys need to look at a big picture here. The changes to the CW will directly impact on the survival chances of both Fighters. I've already commented in the GF thread that the changes in guard and slight HP buff may not be enough to cope with a decrease in control and an increase in threat. Likewise taking a sledgehammer to Unstoppable in the midst of CW changes may not be a good idea.
PSA: You don't need to grind Spinward Rise for your Elemental artifact main hand if you have some AD lying around. You can craft it via the Tyranny of Dragon's campaign screen.
I've gone onto the preview shard to test out my Iron Vanguard/Destroyer GWF on IWD heroic encounters. My GWF is pvp focused but with what I consider to be my PvE setup here's where my stats are (plus my augment companion):
GS: 17.3k
power: 5.6k
crit: 693 (20.8 crit %, i use a normal PF)
arp: 2.2k
recovery: 2.9k
defense: 3.5k
deflect: 853
regen: 1.8k
life steal: 1.1k
i've got 2/4 instigator grim and 2/4 purified (greater corrupt BI overload chant) with purified main hand and off hand.
My regular pve rotation is IBS, frontline surge and roar for encounters, destroyer and weapon master for passives, savage advance and slam for dailies & sure strike and wicked strike for at-wills.
Minor encounters didn't seem to be any harder. Didn't have to use a pot to clear any out. Majors were noticably trickier, the drop in DR during unstoppable was obvious and even using pots and running around I wasn't as effective in clearing out 5-6 enemy mobs.
But someone in here mentioned daring shout as a way to get back some DR, so I switched in that for roar. With that an unstoppable popped, I seemed like my DR was close to back to where it was before. But going from 7 second roar cooldowns to 14 for daring shout hurt, and found myself being out of unstoppable too long if I timed the encounters wrong.
And so then I took out surge and went with IBS, roar and daring shout. With good timing I was very rarely ever out of IBS and even though that took my DPS down some my survivability improved quite a bit. That'd probably work well in a party and I could possibly even do some tanking with enough support from a DC.
So that's one way for destroyers to adjust to the unstoppable nerf, but that'd still reduce DPS and might not be much more DPS than a sentinel could pull off if it geared up offensively.
If they're to raise up the Unstoppable DR any, and I'm not sure yet if that's necessary, 12.5-25% would be pretty adequate. Then the last sentinel feat would double that to get back to 25-50%.
Just call me Rod. Member of Grievance! CW: Rodrant Turnbul TR: Rodran DC: Rodrat GWF: ROARdrant TurnBRAWL Other GWF: Shieldrant HR: Bowdrant SW: Wardrant Turnlock (my main!) OP: Paladrant (on Preview!)
Hi, thanks for hard work, i think that changes are in right direction. I can suggest something from my experience in live and preview server.
Feedback: unstoppable
I think that with the diminuishing dr (5-10%) may be usefull that when you pop unstoppable it refill you stamina, so you can evade a red area or a killing blow, because gwf don't have other evasion meccanics. This may be added as new unstoppable feature or may be a new effect of the capstone feat of destroyer path.
Feedback: Sentinel aegis
We can't resist to adds swarm, please rework the 20% bonus to be increased when we are rounded by adds. May be that it augment for 5% for every enemy in a radius.
Ty for your support and you made a good try with this changes.
Sorry for my bad english.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited June 2014
Feedback:
After many builds and test.
Unstoppable nerf for Destro and instigator is brutal y lose 20k hp to gain full bar determination this is too much. If y somone have 40k hp he can use half unstoppable 3 times only, this is too much we dont have dodge to avoid the dmg .
Also in pvp vs any other class y have 0 chance to land any attack, the stun dont last so long to land another skill like IBS hou care if can hit 15-20 k if y can never do it?
Its immposibe to kill CW oppressor no GWF can come close to it .
Also take down have now at will dmg as seninel and insigniator this is a joke "take down= Stun down" another joke(sorry but i cant say it constructive).
The only thing keep me alive is my companions nothing more ,both pve and pvp.
As for sentinel yepp he can bear more but not matter if y cant hit y cant win in pvp .
This is a total class destroy .
Way i see Sentinel is k in pve if he want to tank .
But if somone have destroyer and not use PVP sentinel sett + Bravery or P.BI armor set +wep set he will die in a eye blink.
The new system will need CW and Tank i am 100% sure but if y kill somthing with IBS y will die the mark will lure too many adds on y the 10 % DMR will not help y to survive long enugh.
Also the new mark system make some of sentinel and GF skills total waste.
This is my last day for posting in forums PVP changes destroyed my 5th char i spend ower 120kk AD in NW.
Unstoppable nerf for Destro and instigator is brutal y lose 20k hp to gain full bar determination this is too much. If y somone have 40k hp he can use half unstoppable 3 times only, this is too much we dont have dodge to avoid the dmg .
Also in pvp vs any other class y have 0 chance to land any attack, the stun dont last so long to land another skill like IBS hou care if can hit 15-20 k if y can never do it?
Its immposibe to kill CW oppressor no GWF can come close to it .
Also take down have now at will dmg as seninel and insigniator this is a joke "take down= Stun down" another joke(sorry but i cant say it constructive).
The only thing keep me alive is my companions nothing more ,both pve and pvp.
As for sentinel yepp he can bear more but not matter if y cant hit y cant win in pvp .
This is a total class destroy .
Way i see Sentinel is k in pve if he want to tank .
But if somone have destroyer and not use PVP sentinel sett + Bravery or P.BI armor set +wep set he will die in a eye blink.
The new system will need CW and Tank i am 100% sure but if y kill somthing with IBS y will die the mark will lure too many adds on y the 10 % DMR will not help y to survive long enugh.
Also the new mark system make some of sentinel and GF skills total waste.
This is my last day for posting in forums PVP changes destroyed my 5th char i spend ower 120kk AD in NW.
PS: i wrote from mobile
Fully agree.
I get people want the paths to be separate but its gone TOO far.
Sents deal zero damage but can actualy tank hits, but cant hit anything in pvp due to no control.
Dest deal alot of damage but cant take any hits and also cant hit anything due to zero control.
What needs to happen:
Takedown BACK on a true "prone". This allows ALL types of GWFs to actually be able to hit things in PVP.
Unstoppable back up to 15-30%. This allows Instagators and Destroyers to have SOME survivability.
People who dont play a GWF dont understand the mechanics of WHY a GWF either felt so tanky or WHY they could deal damage, they just say "GWF OP, I got takedown crit for 12k WTF nerf takedown!!"
But what they dont understand is how much Roar stun + Unstoppable Recovery aided in ALL GWFs tankiness.
Roar stunend for about 2 seconds, was an AOE, ON AN 8 SECOND CD! It also helped you gain determination. So this would STUN, Fill determination and then when popping unstoppable youd heal back for 5% of you HP PLUS all the other benefits of unstoppable.
THIS is what was creating GWF problems. When you remove the stun, not only does that make them less tanky from now being able to get hit by multiple targets, but when you unstoppable you also will heal HALF the amount because of healing depression.
So that Destroyer GWF who was super hard to kill? Itll be MUCH easier...
BUT NOW, unfortunately, because too many people complained without knowing WHY to complain, GWFs were WAY over nerfed.
takedown - the only CC ability that let gwfs get attacks off - stuns for like .2 seconds in PVP.
Frontline - the backup to takedown or Roar - again stuns so again you cant hit anybody.
Ontop of that Unstoppable is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> now so not only can you never HIT someone, WHILE they are infinitely kiting you around you cant even take the damage they can dish out.
The TWO issues with LIVE were Roar + Unstoppable Recovery. That was it. I dont even care if you wanna nerf GWF tankiness further, make Unstoppable 15-30% (which is a 40% NERF TO THE CLASS FEATURE!)
But taking away takedown+front line prones? taking away unstoppable? That is overkill....... Seriously...
Hey guys, we have taken a look at Iron Vanguard and Swordmaster and we wanted to make some changes to bring them more in line with their intended use. First, we are tuning back Iron Vanguard damage on Great Weapon Fighters so that it will line up with Guardian Fighter damage from the same powers. This allows the powers to be more focused on their utility and intent than on their damage, which didn't properly account for the difference in weapon damage when they were ported over. Second, we are improving Weapon Master's Strike and Flourish on both Guardian and Great Weapon Fighters to make them more attractive as damage options. Below are the changes for Great Weapon Fighters (to see the Guardian ones, check out their thread).
Great Weapon Fighter: Threatening Rush: This power now deals ~35% less damage.
Great Weapon Fighter: Frontline Surge: This power now deals ~35% less damage.
Great Weapon Fighter: Weaponmaster's Strike: This power now deals ~10% more damage.
Great Weapon Fighter: Flourish: This power now deals ~15% more damage and stuns for 3 seconds (2 seconds on players).
We are continuing to look at the various changes and so far we are fairly happy with the choice to diversify the damage resistance into a tank bonus, but we want to get continued feedback on that from dungeon runs and PVP so we can better tune where it belongs.
So I was on the preview shard doing more tests and this is what happened.
In a party with 2gwf 1 sentinel 1 destroyer(me) both 17.1k GS. 1 cw 16.3 oppressor or thau. 1 dc 15.3 miracle healer. 1 tr 16.9GS MI perma
We did ToS during which i did not die once we had a great healer. However I could not get agro with the necessity to being unable to tank any red lines without sever consequences. How ever we move at a steady pace through the dungeon. During the dungeon I went unstoppable 3x not because I didn't seem to be gaining any determination. By the end of the dungeon the cw (with 30-40% less damage according to her/him) was at 23.2mil, I was at 9.3mil, tr was at 8.7mil. Sentinel 2.4mil, dc 1.4mil.
We then switched out the dc for a 16.1 buffing/tank GF and went to valindras tower.
This was an interesting experience. To say the least. Our new recruit gf enforced threat and it was indeed like a sing but only the sing ran in circles like a chicken with its head cut off and our gfs little (47k) house bar went from full to 2 about 20%. Just in time for our cw to show the gf how to sing. From there on it was pretty much the same thing gf had to be rezed every other mob. untill after the 1st boss where gf went down and stayed down, i followed suit with the gf by going down also. When I r ezed I saw this gf being pummeled by 3 thayan knights. I jumped to his aid... by the end of it the gf was at less than 10% go and I was at roughly 20% hp (1500 life steal and endless consumption 37% deflection 42% dr[not counting unstoppable]) we caught up to the party and faced off with valindra. During first large aoe the red lines stoped showing up and that was the end for me. Party wiped after another 5mins valindra slowly sucked them all dry. Damage tally 1 cw 15.2mil 2 destroyer gwf 6.3mil 3 tr 5.9mil 4/5 you know who.
These were my findings. Gf talk bit and can't take the pressure. Gwfs destroyer are now trs who instead of stealthing we get bigger. Cw are still power houses.
Hey guys, we have taken a look at Iron Vanguard and Swordmaster and we wanted to make some changes to bring them more in line with their intended use. First, we are tuning back Iron Vanguard damage on Great Weapon Fighters so that it will line up with Guardian Fighter damage from the same powers. This allows the powers to be more focused on their utility and intent than on their damage, which didn't properly account for the difference in weapon damage when they were ported over. Second, we are improving Weapon Master's Strike and Flourish on both Guardian and Great Weapon Fighters to make them more attractive as damage options. Below are the changes for Great Weapon Fighters (to see the Guardian ones, check out their thread).
Great Weapon Fighter: Threatening Rush: This power now deals ~35% less damage.
Great Weapon Fighter: Frontline Surge: This power now deals ~35% less damage.
Great Weapon Fighter: Weaponmaster's Strike: This power now deals ~10% more damage.
Great Weapon Fighter: Flourish: This power now deals ~15% more damage and stuns for 3 seconds (2 seconds on players).
We are continuing to look at the various changes and so far we are fairly happy with the choice to diversify the damage resistance into a tank bonus, but we want to get continued feedback on that from dungeon runs and PVP so we can better tune where it belongs.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
Thanks for feedback Crush,
I too am really leery about nerfing "base" damage. I see the point - in that IV weapon damage difference was not intended. At the same time, wouldnt attacking with a 2h sword deal more damage than on a GF with a 1H sword?
The REASON people complained about the damage difference was that swordmaster needed a buff, not that IV needed a nerf...
I like the change to Flourish - although 2 seconds of stun with CC resist ends up being about .5-1 sec in PVP. Not sure if thats noticable or not....
YOu guys ALREADY nerfed Frontline surge damage a while back, the prone-> stun change and NOW this? Thats a little over the top....
Threat Rush damage change? Eh - its more of a gap closer than damager, if your gonna do this, again, GWFs really need some additional CC..... Flourish looks like its now ALOT better than frontline surge.
The reason this makes no sense Crush, is not when you have two equally geared lvl 60s. One a GF the other a GWF, they will end up dealing similar damage on the same IV skill, where as a GWF SHOULD deal more damage than a GF. THe issue, again, was that IV was initially BASED around the 600ish weapon damage, so making a GWf with 1000 made it deal alot of damage where as Swordmaster was initially based off 1000.
So IMO, dont nerf frontline or threat rush, JUST buff swordmaster to make THAT a better tree as an option. If you REALLY wanna make them more appealing, give swordmaster some sort of "gap closer" like threat rush, OR, give swordmaster better "cc" - flourish is a STEP that way.
OVERALL though, I see nothing addressing the MASSIVE over nerf to this class....
1) Bring Unstoppable back to 15-30% base. Sents can keep 25-50%.
2) Bring back takedown PRONE. DONT nerf the damage.
3) FrontLine Surge needs a LONGER stun timer - im fine with this as a stun but currently its like .2 sec in pvp which is nothing.
Comments
Basically what you are doing is making classes weaker in all aspects of the game to suit 1 particular aspect of the game. This is fail.
Instead of " dialing back " classes, why don't you implement a dual-spec mechanic.
One spec that is only usable in PVE, and the other that is only usable in PVP, that way you can balance a PVP spec, without having to nerf PVE players.
The changes i have seen proposed across several classes to balance PVP essentially screws PVE only players. This type of change, is the same reason many people left other games such as WoW.
If you don't intend on keeping PVP and PVE seperate, you will eventually paint yourselves into a corner so to speak when it comes to balancing out the gameplay.
and steely defense needs to be fixed... having a 66% control resist in pvp and still getting stuned ?
Pve: all u have to do here is drop only 1 damage encounter u used before (not so fast? takedown?) and use Pushing charge, and there u go, u have a dodge ability like every other class that will make u avoid damage in full. If dont like it or u think u cant time it good, dont worry there is a power called daring shout. This power roughly gives u around 20/30 DR depending from ur oponents+ it fills ur unstopable meter very fast.
Pvp: first, hit and run tactic. u drop 1 encounter (FLS)and use battle fury that will buff ur ap gain and damage, and what its best it will refill ur stamina so u can run away fast when poping unstopable, so just run to ur oponent do battle fury, then standart takedown+ ibs + daily then run away if its needed. And again u can use pushing charge as a dodge ability if u dont like battle fury. i thing destroyer can be ok even with current most used powers if its buffed in def stats.
There are ways for a destroyer ppl just look at it with current most use skills. I like the unstopable change, what i dont like is the rest of the changes on takedown, fls, treath rush and sprint, that should stay unchanged. Ok i hope ppl will think again when saying that destroyer is useless now in pvp and pve, its a great change dor balancing this game and for implementing other classes in game like the old forgoten GF, DC, and gwf sentinels.
Sentinel can also slot steel grace u know
I am a GWF player myself and i have to say that it was good to nerf the threatening rush, but i think this was a little too much.
I personally could think about a cooldown for every target so you can jump on one target only once every 3 seconds for example.
FEEDBACK UNSTOPPABLE:
The unstoppable nerf however was way too much, because now i need to throw away all of the damage feats to still survive in pve, because he lost his core ability too tank AND do damage in a fight.
The damage resistance was the key to being able to engage every figtht and wait for the CW's singularity (now even more limited number of targets) to kill them all at once.
So the nerf makes him more squishy and changes the playstyle a lot.
Its pretty easy to outplay any gwf, because you just have to stop using your skills while hes unstoppable and prone him before he can reactivate it.
FEEDBACK FS + TAKEDOWN:
And the nerf of FS and Takedown is pretty hard, especially for takedown. FS was always a OP ability but this makes it too weak right now and i ld prefer a nerf for the range and maybe the time of the prone, because now a GWF has no ability to prone another gwf in order to stop him from going unstoppable .
I think an easy way to fix things, without really having to majorly nerf anything is change:
"Focused Destroyer" Just change this from a 25% chance to proc off any attack plus stacks give you additional damage to JUST the pure damage boost.
This wont hurt it much for PVE, but takes away this feat for PVP.
This feat accounts for about a 38%+ damage boost.
THEN with the changes to roar/takedown/FLS/Threat Rush/Unstop Recovery etc I honestly dont think you even need to nerf Unstoppable...
This will STILL accomplish your goal of having two distinct paths - Sentinel is MUCH tankier than Destroyer. But Destroyer has alot more damage.
I think people HEAVILY under-estimate the tankiness Roar brought to Destroyer GWFs because of the stun + Determination gain... Even just slotting out to frontline surge removes a BIG determination gain and makes them much more squishy. So the stun removal on Roar is going to be HUGE.
Not only that, but unstoppable recovery is now cut in half due to healing depression. Which is HUGE.
Not only that, but takedown damage is nerfed AND takedown no longer prones - making it REALLY hard to get IBS off.
Not only that but Threat Rush is nerfed so GWFs cant chain that around.
dat blu, MY EYES THEY BURN
I understand separating tank and dps builds in pve. But, there are 2 huge problems with the current changes. Sprinting has no dodge, meaning we HAVE to make it all the way out of the attack area. Currently, this is impossible if we started an attack just before the red area appeared. Secondly, if somebody else is tanking and/or we do not intentionally eat red, we can't maintain unstoppable and the capstone stacks that are a CRUCIAL part of destroyers PVE damage.
SUGGESTIONS to make the new destroyer PVE viable:
Make sprint instantly cancel any attack in progress (especially wicked strike. Just add a "cooldown" to make animation cancel attacks impossible) to make dodging a realistic option, AND increase the destroyer capstone feat determination build from damage dealt significantly (So we can actually use it to maintain the damage stacks, EVEN when somebody else is tanking (such as sentinel or GF).
These changes would make a pure PVE DPS GWF playable, as they would allow us to deal damage and survive without the damage "immunity" from unstoppable.
General
- Determination gain will no longer be subject to variance. This will make Determination gain more normalized.
Powers- Mark: Mark will now taunt foes briefly as well as place the player at the top of the threat list.
- Roar: This power has been fixed to no longer silence opponents for 2 seconds. Instead it correctly interrupts power usage. If a power is successfully interrupted, that power will be locked out for 2 seconds. This effect will no longer pierce CC immunity. Roar will no longer Root players for 2 seconds.
- Unstoppable: Unstoppable now grants 15~30% damage resist when activated (down from 25~50%)
- Takedown: This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs.
- Takedown: This power now deals ~10% less damage.
- Iron Vanguard: Frontline Surge: This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs.
- Iron Vanguard: Threatening Rush: This power now has 3 charges which COMPLETELY refresh every 9 seconds.
Feats[*]Focused Destroyer:*REMOVED* % chance to proc off ANY attack. This feat still increases bonus damage per stack and has an *ADDED* .2/.4/.6/.8/1 sec longer duration for Destroyer Stacks.
[*]Sentinel's Aegis: This feat now also grants Unstoppable additional benefits of 25-50% DR depending on determination. (re-worded is all)
[*]Allied Opportunity: *REWORKED* This feat now grants a 5/10/15/20/25% damage boost to Mighty Leap and Not so Fast. Additionally, Mighty Leap now stuns all targets in the area for .2/.4/.6/.8/1 second and Not So Fast slows targets by an additional 3/6/9/12/15%.
[*]Instagator's Vengeance: *REWORKED* This feat now gives a damage bonus of 25% for 3 seconds after receiving damage.
[/QUOTE]
If you want to keep these changes it's time to increase AP generation to balance the GWF in overview considering PVP and PVE.
Devs please do NOT change the DPS in relation to Destroyer.
First off, Destroyer class feature is a MAIN reason GWFs can hit so hard, it currently provides about a 40% damage boost, which if you see in my patch notes, I removed the % chance to gain from ANY attack putting this BACK to "you must attack 3 or more people" to gain the stack. With this feat gone, the only damage boosts youll see to takedown are the 40% dmg boost from the capstone.
All of that combined is what gets takedown to the insane damage it is now. Nerfing the skill isnt whats needed, its nerfing the +damage bonuses.
So if you remove the ~40% damage from destroyer, you ALREADY are giving takedown a HUGE nerf so that 10-12k takedown (which BTW is only with debuffs) just turned into a 7k takedown.
A 7-8k takedown crit turned into a 5k crit. Which is pretty much inline with what it should be.
The skills are NOT the issue, the destroyer capstone isnt the issue, its the Focused Destroyer Class feature COMBINED with the capstone that is giving such massive damage boosts.
TO give another example. Here is the current readings on my BASE tooltip for IBS: 4545-5450. Note this is with zero buffs.
Now lets add JUST the Focused Destroyer feat: 6518 - 7816 You can see how BIG a DPS boost this gives.
NOW lets add the destroyer capstone stacks: 9,126 - 10,942.
NOW ontop of ALL of that, lets add the 10% encounter dmg boost WHILE in unstoppable. 9,708 - 11,640[/I
So to say this again, ALL of these damage feats took my tootip FROM (top end) 5450 TO 11,640.
So when you say nerf takedown, I hope you see, its not the SKILL that needs a nerf, its these insanely HUGE damage boosts you get from other places.
The DEVs gave us these damage boosts in mod 3, and NOW to compensate because people complain (and rightfully so) about these crazy takedown crits or crazy IBS crits, they dont understand HOW they get those crits and ask for the wrong changes, which brings us to these mod 4 changes.
THE SOLUTION: Remove the Focused Destroyer ability to get stacks off ANY hit. This will cut ALL Destroyers top end damage by ALOT.
TO show this, at MAX capacity I dropped this ONE feat off my bar and here is the NEW MAX top end with Unstoppable Capstone+Unstoppable damage boost up:
7301-8754 Which is about a 33% reduction.
So IN CONCUSION:
Dont nerf the skills, that just hurts the other builds, nerf the damage boosts to bring this inline, but only for single target DPS which means this feat still stays in play for PVE.
The damage does not need to be cut, let alone with the current Unstoppable change. Yes I know you are advocating increasing the percentage, however the damage Destroyer's do is fine where it is after being fixed with Deep Gash cuts come Mod 3.
We can agree to disagree of course, however I'm for every change they have suggested aside from Unstoppable as it's a bit too steep. Aside from that GWFs are fine with the current changes. Changes to our DPS is not going to solve anything IMO.
Well to be frank, I agree with you in that damage should be kept up since they have completely removed the GWFs ability to catch anything.
If, however, the tradeoff is between Unstoppable at its current % BECAUSE Destroyers deal too much damage, id rather give up some damage and gain unstoppable back.
Again, Ive said many times in this thread, and hopefully DEVs listen. The nerf to Roar/Unstoppable Recovery(now respects healing depression), the nerf to threat ruch will ALL make the GWF much much squishier - probably more than people realize.
Now with Roar stun gone, takedown WAS the only real way to get an IBS off, since thats gone now too, I think its Kudos if a GWF can even land an IBS with 3 destroyer stacks plus 20 stacks of the capstone up.
IMO though, takedown to a stun, frontline to a stun, and Unstoppable nerf were WAY overboard.
It does not reduce any damage at all, can't even notice. It seems like the DESTROYER should be renamed to Big Chicken from now on.
Devs, if you listen. Please change Unstoppable back to where it was for PVE or at least 15-35% minimum. You can have it at 5-10% for PVP is you wish.
You have simply killed the class, as the GWF is not going to be useful as he has. He will be running and hiding where the TR's will perform a better job by the looks of it now. Unstoppable needs to be reworked and the damage should not be changed in any way for the GWF as you need to build it anyway which makes it now so much harder as you need to maintain it and build it by having petty much no Unstoppable at all. Just a Big Balloon GWF
Well, here it goes. PvP. You should, no, must keep takedown at least to prone if not a lot of damage, at least not for a long time, because it's cool! Here's why: When I tried to pvp before lvl 15 on GWF, I felt like a CW without ranged attacks. Basically, I died MORE than anybody else. So if you're trying to fix the class, don't nerf everything of it! That's why this game is so good, because you can shift, and knock prone WITH a skill, and not randomly. Don't make this game stupid like all other stupid games, evolve it, not DEVOLVE it. And don't nerf stealth on the tr whenever you plan to do it, there's a game where they will never nerf permanent stealth, or prones on thie GWFs, hint.
On test shard take down doesn't even stun. Frontline prones.
P.S.: I don't care much about Determination, keep the feat for it in Sentinel's Aegis for PvE. But instead of nerfing powerful classes of cool skills, you should make other classes more powerful for PvE and PvP! Keep CW and GWF as is, nerf HR Pathfinder paragon a little bit (it is too OP, it takes 2 GWFs to kill them usually). Give more power to other classes for PvE, maybe some skills to Area of Effect to rogues, hunters, guardians.
Well here's my two cents, so if you don't want this game to become 8 bit, you should consider it.
This has been scaled back a little too much. Again this comes down to PVP balance affecting PVE. Same can be said of Threatening Rush, however, in this case GWFs in PVP have negatively impacted on GFs in PVE.
Back to Unstoppable, I'd reconsider the extent of the nerf. Bear in mind that CWs will have less control and deal less damage, so like the GF the GWF will be taking more damage. I'd say 15 - 25% would be a fair middle ground.
You guys need to look at a big picture here. The changes to the CW will directly impact on the survival chances of both Fighters. I've already commented in the GF thread that the changes in guard and slight HP buff may not be enough to cope with a decrease in control and an increase in threat. Likewise taking a sledgehammer to Unstoppable in the midst of CW changes may not be a good idea.
GS: 17.3k
power: 5.6k
crit: 693 (20.8 crit %, i use a normal PF)
arp: 2.2k
recovery: 2.9k
defense: 3.5k
deflect: 853
regen: 1.8k
life steal: 1.1k
i've got 2/4 instigator grim and 2/4 purified (greater corrupt BI overload chant) with purified main hand and off hand.
My regular pve rotation is IBS, frontline surge and roar for encounters, destroyer and weapon master for passives, savage advance and slam for dailies & sure strike and wicked strike for at-wills.
Minor encounters didn't seem to be any harder. Didn't have to use a pot to clear any out. Majors were noticably trickier, the drop in DR during unstoppable was obvious and even using pots and running around I wasn't as effective in clearing out 5-6 enemy mobs.
But someone in here mentioned daring shout as a way to get back some DR, so I switched in that for roar. With that an unstoppable popped, I seemed like my DR was close to back to where it was before. But going from 7 second roar cooldowns to 14 for daring shout hurt, and found myself being out of unstoppable too long if I timed the encounters wrong.
And so then I took out surge and went with IBS, roar and daring shout. With good timing I was very rarely ever out of IBS and even though that took my DPS down some my survivability improved quite a bit. That'd probably work well in a party and I could possibly even do some tanking with enough support from a DC.
So that's one way for destroyers to adjust to the unstoppable nerf, but that'd still reduce DPS and might not be much more DPS than a sentinel could pull off if it geared up offensively.
If they're to raise up the Unstoppable DR any, and I'm not sure yet if that's necessary, 12.5-25% would be pretty adequate. Then the last sentinel feat would double that to get back to 25-50%.
CW: Rodrant Turnbul
TR: Rodran
DC: Rodrat
GWF: ROARdrant TurnBRAWL
Other GWF: Shieldrant
HR: Bowdrant
SW: Wardrant Turnlock (my main!)
OP: Paladrant (on Preview!)
Feedback: unstoppable
I think that with the diminuishing dr (5-10%) may be usefull that when you pop unstoppable it refill you stamina, so you can evade a red area or a killing blow, because gwf don't have other evasion meccanics. This may be added as new unstoppable feature or may be a new effect of the capstone feat of destroyer path.
Feedback: Sentinel aegis
We can't resist to adds swarm, please rework the 20% bonus to be increased when we are rounded by adds. May be that it augment for 5% for every enemy in a radius.
Ty for your support and you made a good try with this changes.
Sorry for my bad english.
After many builds and test.
Unstoppable nerf for Destro and instigator is brutal y lose 20k hp to gain full bar determination this is too much. If y somone have 40k hp he can use half unstoppable 3 times only, this is too much we dont have dodge to avoid the dmg .
Also in pvp vs any other class y have 0 chance to land any attack, the stun dont last so long to land another skill like IBS hou care if can hit 15-20 k if y can never do it?
Its immposibe to kill CW oppressor no GWF can come close to it .
Also take down have now at will dmg as seninel and insigniator this is a joke "take down= Stun down" another joke(sorry but i cant say it constructive).
The only thing keep me alive is my companions nothing more ,both pve and pvp.
As for sentinel yepp he can bear more but not matter if y cant hit y cant win in pvp .
This is a total class destroy .
Way i see Sentinel is k in pve if he want to tank .
But if somone have destroyer and not use PVP sentinel sett + Bravery or P.BI armor set +wep set he will die in a eye blink.
The new system will need CW and Tank i am 100% sure but if y kill somthing with IBS y will die the mark will lure too many adds on y the 10 % DMR will not help y to survive long enugh.
Also the new mark system make some of sentinel and GF skills total waste.
This is my last day for posting in forums PVP changes destroyed my 5th char i spend ower 120kk AD in NW.
PS: i wrote from mobile
Fully agree.
I get people want the paths to be separate but its gone TOO far.
Sents deal zero damage but can actualy tank hits, but cant hit anything in pvp due to no control.
Dest deal alot of damage but cant take any hits and also cant hit anything due to zero control.
What needs to happen:
Takedown BACK on a true "prone". This allows ALL types of GWFs to actually be able to hit things in PVP.
Unstoppable back up to 15-30%. This allows Instagators and Destroyers to have SOME survivability.
People who dont play a GWF dont understand the mechanics of WHY a GWF either felt so tanky or WHY they could deal damage, they just say "GWF OP, I got takedown crit for 12k WTF nerf takedown!!"
But what they dont understand is how much Roar stun + Unstoppable Recovery aided in ALL GWFs tankiness.
Roar stunend for about 2 seconds, was an AOE, ON AN 8 SECOND CD! It also helped you gain determination. So this would STUN, Fill determination and then when popping unstoppable youd heal back for 5% of you HP PLUS all the other benefits of unstoppable.
THIS is what was creating GWF problems. When you remove the stun, not only does that make them less tanky from now being able to get hit by multiple targets, but when you unstoppable you also will heal HALF the amount because of healing depression.
So that Destroyer GWF who was super hard to kill? Itll be MUCH easier...
BUT NOW, unfortunately, because too many people complained without knowing WHY to complain, GWFs were WAY over nerfed.
takedown - the only CC ability that let gwfs get attacks off - stuns for like .2 seconds in PVP.
Frontline - the backup to takedown or Roar - again stuns so again you cant hit anybody.
Ontop of that Unstoppable is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> now so not only can you never HIT someone, WHILE they are infinitely kiting you around you cant even take the damage they can dish out.
The TWO issues with LIVE were Roar + Unstoppable Recovery. That was it. I dont even care if you wanna nerf GWF tankiness further, make Unstoppable 15-30% (which is a 40% NERF TO THE CLASS FEATURE!)
But taking away takedown+front line prones? taking away unstoppable? That is overkill....... Seriously...
Great Weapon Fighter: Threatening Rush: This power now deals ~35% less damage.
Great Weapon Fighter: Frontline Surge: This power now deals ~35% less damage.
Great Weapon Fighter: Weaponmaster's Strike: This power now deals ~10% more damage.
Great Weapon Fighter: Flourish: This power now deals ~15% more damage and stuns for 3 seconds (2 seconds on players).
We are continuing to look at the various changes and so far we are fairly happy with the choice to diversify the damage resistance into a tank bonus, but we want to get continued feedback on that from dungeon runs and PVP so we can better tune where it belongs.
Thank you all for your continued feedback!
Chris "Gentleman Crush" Meyer
In a party with 2gwf 1 sentinel 1 destroyer(me) both 17.1k GS. 1 cw 16.3 oppressor or thau. 1 dc 15.3 miracle healer. 1 tr 16.9GS MI perma
We did ToS during which i did not die once we had a great healer. However I could not get agro with the necessity to being unable to tank any red lines without sever consequences. How ever we move at a steady pace through the dungeon. During the dungeon I went unstoppable 3x not because I didn't seem to be gaining any determination. By the end of the dungeon the cw (with 30-40% less damage according to her/him) was at 23.2mil, I was at 9.3mil, tr was at 8.7mil. Sentinel 2.4mil, dc 1.4mil.
We then switched out the dc for a 16.1 buffing/tank GF and went to valindras tower.
This was an interesting experience. To say the least. Our new recruit gf enforced threat and it was indeed like a sing but only the sing ran in circles like a chicken with its head cut off and our gfs little (47k) house bar went from full to 2 about 20%. Just in time for our cw to show the gf how to sing. From there on it was pretty much the same thing gf had to be rezed every other mob. untill after the 1st boss where gf went down and stayed down, i followed suit with the gf by going down also. When I r ezed I saw this gf being pummeled by 3 thayan knights. I jumped to his aid... by the end of it the gf was at less than 10% go and I was at roughly 20% hp (1500 life steal and endless consumption 37% deflection 42% dr[not counting unstoppable]) we caught up to the party and faced off with valindra. During first large aoe the red lines stoped showing up and that was the end for me. Party wiped after another 5mins valindra slowly sucked them all dry. Damage tally 1 cw 15.2mil 2 destroyer gwf 6.3mil 3 tr 5.9mil 4/5 you know who.
These were my findings. Gf talk bit and can't take the pressure. Gwfs destroyer are now trs who instead of stealthing we get bigger. Cw are still power houses.
Thanks for feedback Crush,
I too am really leery about nerfing "base" damage. I see the point - in that IV weapon damage difference was not intended. At the same time, wouldnt attacking with a 2h sword deal more damage than on a GF with a 1H sword?
The REASON people complained about the damage difference was that swordmaster needed a buff, not that IV needed a nerf...
I like the change to Flourish - although 2 seconds of stun with CC resist ends up being about .5-1 sec in PVP. Not sure if thats noticable or not....
YOu guys ALREADY nerfed Frontline surge damage a while back, the prone-> stun change and NOW this? Thats a little over the top....
Threat Rush damage change? Eh - its more of a gap closer than damager, if your gonna do this, again, GWFs really need some additional CC..... Flourish looks like its now ALOT better than frontline surge.
The reason this makes no sense Crush, is not when you have two equally geared lvl 60s. One a GF the other a GWF, they will end up dealing similar damage on the same IV skill, where as a GWF SHOULD deal more damage than a GF. THe issue, again, was that IV was initially BASED around the 600ish weapon damage, so making a GWf with 1000 made it deal alot of damage where as Swordmaster was initially based off 1000.
So IMO, dont nerf frontline or threat rush, JUST buff swordmaster to make THAT a better tree as an option. If you REALLY wanna make them more appealing, give swordmaster some sort of "gap closer" like threat rush, OR, give swordmaster better "cc" - flourish is a STEP that way.
OVERALL though, I see nothing addressing the MASSIVE over nerf to this class....
1) Bring Unstoppable back to 15-30% base. Sents can keep 25-50%.
2) Bring back takedown PRONE. DONT nerf the damage.
3) FrontLine Surge needs a LONGER stun timer - im fine with this as a stun but currently its like .2 sec in pvp which is nothing.