lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
edited June 2014
If we are honest regarding the GWF, I think we all agree that the damage reduction applied to the Destroyer is good, it's like a Berserker very high dmg and low def but if we aren't going to have defense, we must have speed! Once we press tab we should have an increase in the speed which would be useful in PvE, making sprint even faster allowing us to avoid red areas with ease, in PvP the GWF will be melted down due to the lack of the actual DR but with speed, we can get very close to our enemies and deal damage or run before we get killed, 4-8 seconds of increased speed, based on the unstoppable bar. Good for Destroyers and Instigators, disabled for sentinels.
reagenlionel1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
General
Determination gain will no longer be subject to variance. This will make Determination gain more normalized.
Powers
Mark: Mark will now taunt foes briefly as well as place the player at the top of the threat list. Do the marks still go away when we're hit? Otherwise thats just a second of attention.
Roar: This power has been fixed to no longer silence opponents for 2 seconds. Instead it correctly interrupts power usage. If a power is successfully interrupted, that power will be locked out for 2 seconds. This effect will no longer pierce CC immunity. Roar will no longer Root players for 2 seconds. I didnt think all of this was needed. All that needed to be done was fix it from going through CC immunity.
Unstoppable: Unstoppable now grants 5~10% damage resist when activated (down from 25~50%) This is just too much. We have no means of mitigating damage and no reliable dodge. We are on the front lines soaking up damage with no real means to mitigate it now.
Takedown: This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs.
Takedown: This power now deals ~30% less damage. Why was this change nessecary?
Iron Vanguard: Frontline Surge: This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs. I hope this is GWF specific. Prones are the only thing keeping GF's even remotely relevant in pvp.
Iron Vanguard: Threatening Rush: This power now has 3 charges which refresh every 9 seconds. This better be GWF specific..cause unlike GWF, GF's have very little mobility as it is.
Feats
Sentinel's Aegis: This feat now causes Unstoppable to grant 5 times more damage resistance in addition to its other effects.
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zankardMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
With a much less powerful Unstoppable now, wouldn't it be a good idea to fix rubberbanding issues for at-wills like Wicked Strike? It's very sketchy to dodge using sprint when using this at-will, and with threatening rush not being able to be spammed anymore it just feels awkward. Well, perhaps a GF will keep trouble away for once in this game (yes their threat was INDEED not enough, don't listen to the pvpers), but it hinders the gameplay when one of the basic at-wills feels like getting stuck when you're trying to stop it and run. Just my 5c
Feedback: GWF - Threatening Rush; For this At-will, please consider updating the targets location in real time (during the animation). On live, this ability can cause a GWF to use 50% sprint getting into range for this at-will followed by a slight delay in the application of damage. I find that this causes 50% stam loss, followed by a failed attempt to apply damage, followed by the depletion of stamina completely (180ms ping).
Feedback: GWF - Unstoppable; As discussed before this patch went live, GWF's gain mob-attention when using IBS and Threatening Rush (appears conal). This effectively means that the destroyer feat increasing the damage of IBS will now leave a lingering dmg based threat on the target after the initial hand-off has been made to the SentGWF/GF (PvE DPS). The Taunt is fine, it's the top of the threat meter and increased damage output of a pve destroyer that wrecks this option in practicality. GWF runs in, subsumes to the GF. GWF uses IBS, IBS applies taunt, IBS applies Mark, IBS applies 90k-1xxk dmg, Top of the threat meter quickly becomes uncatchable threat due to the 90k-1xxk dmg (fully debuffed NPC) + AoE Not So Fast or Wicked Strike (Don't have weapon master's strike anymore)
I feel that with the increased dmg arc of GWF's they will consistently gain aggro from the 4th, 5th and 6th adds as the GF doesn't pull the aggro back. This will lead to GWF stacking and will (once again) exclude the GF.
It does look like a GWF will have to pay 78k AD to respec for PvP and back again and I think that the Unstoppable capstone (Sentinel Tree) is good for the game. However, no new details have been released regarding content (understandable).
If there is a new Arena / Battleground please take into account the increased mobility of the 18 PvP Campaign Achievements choice "Tactical Redeployment" in the design of the map. This will increase the survivability of the GWF as less players in the same area is effective damage reduction. I wouldn't mind moving out of range with Sprint and dragging 1-2 players away from their group as it would maintain the survivability lost in the Unstoppable nerf. Currently the main focus fire method is the certain way to deal with the GWF.
Also, please re-examine the stacking of movement boons on the GWF, as it stands it's like Rank 8's and ALL movement boons leave my GWF running slower than Rank 7's and no boons (Inspect on friendlies and in Caer-Konig after GG). I'm at 180ms ping and have little to no pending packing/unpacking (rarely over 60% CPU usage multi-tasking, RAM is lower).
It is as though the word deprecated is sewn somewhere into my character sheet's movement field on the server.
Threatening Rush: Remains unchanged, no cooldown or charges (only on gwf)
Unstoppable (non-sentinel): My GWF is well geared with endless consumption so i did not notice much change doing solo content. Soloed 5 man HE (wolves) noticed things hurt alot more. Managed to solo though. Died a few times testing the water, dodging in and out with sprint and using spinning strike as my daily.
Now im not saying this is balanced by all means. My gwf has 1k+ regen AND 1400+ lifesteal AND endless consumption. as well as pretty good stats. I think the reduction to 10% is too much of a nerf, perhaps consider raising it to 12.5-25% because leveling players, new 60s and gearing up players are going to have SO much pain and death, they are going to be faced with very difficult odds until they get gear. I have no doubt GWFs will die more than any other class if this change goes live, most will get fustrated.
I have yet to test in a real dungeon, but right now i don't think 10% will cut it in the dangerous dungeons, You should be able to take enough damage to get out of danger but not so much you don't have a chance (since they have no dod
Quite unhappy with the changes - i am a free player, so i have done a lot of work in game to get my gwf to 14.6K with 7300 power, 1 L9 enchant, rest are 8. Went to Dread Spire, fought bone golem outside, lost 3/4 of my HP while killing it. inside, taking approx. 3 times longer to kill npc's, with a great deal more HP loss as well - i usually solo this without using a potion - used a dozen this trip. Decided at that point not to go to IWD - don't want the wolves eating my carcass.
Really hope that you reconsider this nerf - the fighter char in D&D is supposed to be the big one that takes on the mob while the wzard stays back and casts, and the rogue picks off stragglers. This is no longer the case with these changes. It's a shame that the needs of a few in pvp are about to ruin the game - pve and all - for many of us.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
edited June 2014
Unstoppable needed slight toning down, not hammered into mush with a tenderizer. And roar just fixed.
I'm about GWF getting put in line, but these changes are overkill.
i was in dread spire with my 17k GWF on the test server i normally run to the end of dread spire and kill all adds in room with research. well lets just say that back when i was a lowly 14k gwf and did this i had to run around alot. this time(17k GWF) i use more pots and ran around like a chicken with my head cut off(pun intended). my life steal in unstoppable is less due to the lower at will damage. going unstoppable made no difference to the amount of damage i took. i beleive that if you want to nerf GWF in PVP then nerf them while they are in pvp leave pve'rs out of it. also in if you wanted to make the pve side more difficult then here is an idea make your epic dungeons and end game campaigns more deadly and keep your mechanics the same. alas however i am preaching to the quire on this one. but you all want to hear what we as the players would like to have as a compromise.
threatening rush did not have a cool down when i played on the test server at 5:15-6:00PM (PST) 6/20/14
Unstoppable: Unstoppable now grants 5~10% damage resist when activated (down from 25~50%)
You said you wanted to change a few things on the PvP side, but this change affects a lot PvE.
That reduction is ridiculous, and this will clearly affect too much low geared GWF players.
All the other changes are welcome, and probably enough to affect the GWF in PvP.
Determination gain will no longer be subject to variance. This will make Determination gain more normalized.
Fine and dandy. Powers
Mark: Mark will now taunt foes briefly as well as place the player at the top of the threat list.
Ok.
Roar: This power has been fixed to no longer silence opponents for 2 seconds. Instead it correctly interrupts power usage. If a power is successfully interrupted, that power will be locked out for 2 seconds. This effect will no longer pierce CC immunity. Roar will no longer Root players for 2 seconds.
The fix was very much needed. I'll get back to the root.
Unstoppable: Unstoppable now grants 5~10% damage resist when activated (down from 25~50%)
I can understand a slight nerf to Unstoppable, because as it is GWF's are the complete package. Great damage mitigation, cc immunity, damage machines, self-healing, mobility and prones to boot. However,when combined with Unstoppable obeying HD, Roar being fixed, all prones and roots being changed to stuns and Threatening Rush having limited charges, I do not see how this is reasonable. GWF's will die a lot more in PvE, where Lifesteal will sustain them less with the lowered damage during Unstoppabale. In PvP, it might give you enough time to sprint away, but surely will not buy you much time to delay your, now inevitable, death.
Takedown: This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs.
See below.
Takedown: This power now deals ~30% less damage.
I understand, this will take away damage from Sentinels and Destroyers will be less over the top bursty in PvP.
Iron Vanguard: Frontline Surge: This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs. See below.
Iron Vanguard: Threatening Rush: This power now has 3 charges which refresh every 9 seconds.
This change was long overdue. I felt it was too powerful ever since I laid my eyes on the tooltip. However, as others have stated, it would be nice if this nerf was paired with a fix to rubberbanding and to charge to the current location of the enemy, not where he was (and that's without taking lag into account). I'm happy to see that charging is now a conscious choice, instead of a taken for granted spamfest. (Feel so sorry for GF's though...)
Feats
Sentinel's Aegis: This feat now causes Unstoppable to grant 5 times more damage resistance in addition to its other effects.
Ok. A cleaner divide between Destroyer and Sentinel. That's how it should be.
Some of these nerfs (or fixes) are just and long overdue, but I fear that these changes will bring GWF's much closer in line with the underpowered classes than where GWF's (and obviously the current UP classes) should be at. These changes, if ALL are implemented, feel more like divine retribution or even revenge for reigning supreme for so long as opposed to trying to bring GWF's closer to the ideal mid-range where everyone can compete on equal footing.
When this goes live GWF's will have poor damage mitigation, poor self-healing (since the DR from Unstoppable also let Regen/Lifesteal catch up with the lost HP), poor mobility, mediocre control and very likely also poor damage output.
CC immunity and (unrealized) damage POTENTIAL will be all they have going for them. GWF encounters are already pretty telegraphed and, when familiar with the class, not that hard to dodge. Our most damaging encounters are pretty slow to activate and with no reason to stand still for a GWF (since you can still move during stun and after being hit with Threatening Rush), it will be very hard to get a rotation off, except after using a daily. How are we supposed to get to and ever stay on a target if we cannot ever stop it from moving? At the very least one of our encounters should retain its prone component.
I implore you to reconsider implementing all of these changes, it will make the class a lot less fun, and will not do much to change the class balance. It will tip the scales in the opposite direction, but not solve the overall problem.
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trollobMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 10Arc User
edited June 2014
GWFs are supossed to fight body on body in PVE, and then you come with these changes affecting damage resistance when fighting against mobs. Can't imagine my GWF vs Bosses. Did you watch live stream today? One of you was playing with a GWF and well he was very satisfied by killing Karrundax when he died 15+ times. Go and test Castle Never, a real dungeon before doing some changes. Because if you keep testing class changes in Cloak Tower and Cragmire Crypts we won't be able to complete the real dungeons in future.
What's the intention when you substitute prone with stun effects for PVP?
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vampirecavyMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 55Arc User
edited June 2014
Okay, as a strict straight up pve-only person, I can actually sympathize with people wanting changes to GWF's unstoppable for PvP. I really can. Plus, I'm totally okay with bugfixing a lot of the things being bugfixed (roar). On top of that, as for changes that only affect "enemy players" or have them "respect healing depression"... I don't really care, though some part of me thinks maybe all of those changes together is a little bit overkill (no way for me to be sure, as I don't pvp). The part of me that, ten months ago, "mained" a GF is cringing at threatening rush's change a bit.
That said... I'm not really sure how comfortable I am with the massive nerf to unstoppable's defense. On paper (and likely in practice) it's a MASSIVE loss. Possibly too much of one. Remember a long time ago, when sometimes GWF or TR tab abilities would completely bug out and become unusable until death? Trying to play a GWF after that bug kicked in was unbearably difficult - you attack kinda slow and you have no usable defensive mechanisms with most ability setups. I feel like this will be sort of bringing this back.
I can respect that you want to move some of its defensive utility to Sentinel. Really, it's a pretty neat idea to do so. However, cutting the defensive properties of it by 80% for anybody who doesn't have the Sentinel capstone is... pretty awful. Low level players will hit ten, and go "... oh hey, I can become a bit bigger?" and not be enthusiastic about it - they won't feel good on activating it. It CAN feel kind of ridiculous in high level play right now, though, I will agree with that - so perhaps something less severe than an 80% loss would be called for?
Also, just going to point out: the continued lack of acknowledgement of Instigator continues to make me kind of laugh.
Unstoppable: Unstoppable now grants 5-10% damage resist down from 25-50% Something everyone seems to have overlooked when saying "this will make you choose to be tanky or deal damage" is that GWF has no ranged fighting capability. Even if a tank is holding the boss, a Destroyer GWF is dead meat to the boss' ginormous red circle of doom, or else give up any actual DPS output to run away. Other classes have ranged damage output, so when red is literally surrounding the boss, they can maintain DPS. GWF loses their DPS and has to run away or die. This is going to put PvE GWFs back to where they were before mod2 came out. A.K.A. not really wanted in DD due to low damage or else constant death.
Honestly, I'd like to see Weapon Master's Strike getting a buff from a paragon feat (Staying Power isn't that great of a feat on the Destroyer tree) to make Swordmaster more viable.
The idea was to have a buffed wicked strike to work in synergy with the weakly buffed WMS. This is from a PvE perspective. Rather than a weakly buffed WMS with a heavily buffed Sure strike, which does not help much with add clearance. With the upcoming nerfs to CW, add clearance may become a huge problem and it would be great to buff a GWFs AoE rather than single target damage. The sure strike buff helps in PvP (although it may need to be dialed down a little bit).
i'm going to add my voice to those saying the Unstoppable nerf goes too far.
I agree, i was probably OP as it was, and having to choose tankiness or DPS is a good thing, but as many have pointed out, 5-10% is FAR too little when you consider that GWFs have no real means of escaping damage.
i personally feel 15-30% would be much more reasonable
Greetings Adventurers!
Great Weapon Fighters have been dominating in PvP and we wanted to take this opportunity to dial them back a little
And what about PvE - how am I supposed to survive with 5-10% damage resist. I don't have great resists and now I'm gonna die from every bigger AoE on Unstoppable.
I can somehow understand that in PvP it was OP but I'm not a PvP player and now I will suffer cause of PvP changes.
So if it's for PvP why don't you change stats just in PvP areas. When you join PvP it could be changed to 5-10%.
In PvE 25-50 like it was or if you really want to change that make it 15-30.
But 5-10? I don't know why should I use Unstoppable at all if any bigger boss will kill with his AoE laughing at my 5% resistance.
I once again must question why you are detroying a class for PVP. Once again. Dial back the nerf. Make it 20-40, or 15-30 when in unstoppable.
The Great weapon fighter was built to be the best of both worlds. I built my GWF on a mixture of both. Forceing me to spec differently just for what i want to do, is not helping.
Dialing back the Debuff in PVP -exlusively- would be acceptable too. if PVP is such an issue. Healing in PVP was, and you fixed that aptly.
I agree with the above post. Dial it back to 15-30. Dont. Make it. 5-10. There's no point in that, other then dumbing down all of the GWF;s capability for Player Vs Player.
Experience on the preview shard. Took my TR and went 1v1 vs sent gwf. The tankiness is certainly still there. IBS hit me for ~15k after my DR. The sky isn't falling. They are still very very good.
I think I can be compromised with 20%-35% or 20%-30% but 5%-10% is what the heck despite our dodge mechanic suck.Or make it difference between PVP and PVE.Any other nerf/fixed is fine by me but I can't stand the unstoppable nerf.
i see a lot of wrong changes for example it was better u nerfed trample on iron path it should not work like it works atm since iron is tank not dps path
istigator is still useless path can u at least ad something to capstone skill like this :your at wills reduce targets def by 10% per stack and it can stack 3x times
why did u nerfed unstopaple so much?it was only good thing on gwf u should just made it to pop based on max hp% for example u need to lose some 20% hp for half bar and 40% for full and removed self heals form it
and can u ask sets designer to balance 4 part sets bonuses high wiz and high prophet needes huge nerf or other classes need to get good team sets like this
Feedback: Destroyer Without having had opportunity to actually try it yet, I'm a bit concerned with regard to a Swordmaster Destroyer's ability to stay alive while swimming in a sea of red in epic dungeons with the amount of damage resistance being removed from Unstoppable. I'm afraid this is going to push GWFs back into the realm of not wanted on the voyage for PvE content.
Edit: Feedback: Instigator Not seeing anything to make this unloved paragon in any way appealing.
yeah i agree with u i cant see now gwf to be alive more then 5-10 secs in all the trash mobs swarms and their 15-20k skill spawns this will just make cw teams even better then now since gwf will be instant dead soon fight start
[*]Iron Vanguard: Threatening Rush: This power now has 3 charges which refresh every 9 seconds.
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this power should have only 2 charges not 3 3 charges will not solve nothing gf and gwf will be still able to easy get to ppl in pvp
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nwnghostMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2014
Destroyers can still hold their own in PvE after the change, especially with Lifesteal.
However, what is no longer possible is to drag the entire dungeon behind you and hope to survive it by using Unstoppable. For fighting up to 2-3 rooms of mobs (with at least 3k defense and 1.5k deflect and the Heroic armor Specialization), it still does very well.
People need to change the way they think/play really. GWF was overpowered for quite a while and the changes bring it more in line with the other classes, and make those other classes have a role as well. Play the game as it was intended (clear dungeon room by room) rather than "roflstomp" it by having everything and their dog follow you and expect them to melt when you turn around to start swinging.
Also, GWFs for too long were able to ignore any Red Circle whilst Unstoppable. Now we actually need to think about which Red Circles we can get hit by and which we can't - and use Sprint/Mighty Leap/Daily Power to get out of it.
The devs wanted to make GF and GWF more different (GF more tanky less damage, GWF less tanky more damage) from the status quo where GWF was both more tanky and high damage. They did that quite well IMO. Just need some fine tuning on GF to make their stamina bar work better so that they can actually survive holding the aggro while others hit the mobs.
Destroyers can still hold their own in PvE after the change, especially with Lifesteal.
However, what is no longer possible is to drag the entire dungeon behind you and hope to survive it by using Unstoppable. For fighting up to 2-3 rooms of mobs (with at least 3k defense and 1.5k deflect and the Heroic armor Specialization), it still does very well.
People need to change the way they think/play really. GWF was overpowered for quite a while and the changes bring it more in line with the other classes, and make those other classes have a role as well. Play the game as it was intended (clear dungeon room by room) rather than "roflstomp" it by having everything and their dog follow you and expect them to melt when you turn around to start swinging.
Also, GWFs for too long were able to ignore any Red Circle whilst Unstoppable. Now we actually need to think about which Red Circles we can get hit by and which we can't - and use Sprint/Mighty Leap/Daily Power to get out of it.
The devs wanted to make GF and GWF more different (GF more tanky less damage, GWF less tanky more damage) from the status quo where GWF was both more tanky and high damage. They did that quite well IMO. Just need some fine tuning on GF to make their stamina bar work better so that they can actually survive holding the aggro while others hit the mobs.
Agree with most of what you are saying. I feel the direction some of these changes have taken is great, in terms of balance. No class should be allowed to have the best of all worlds. I just wish it wasn't dropped to 5-10% but more like a reasonable 15-25%.
I feel that the changes to Unstoppable destroy the class mechanics. I was just fighting a young Rhemoraz in Icewind Dale. On live I can stay in its red attack area. I take damage, go unstoppable and heal with the 14% life steal I have. On preview I take too much damage while being unstoppable. Therefore I can't heal myself with life steal and have to rely on taking pots or trying to run away - which does not guarantee to avoid damage.
I just imagine doing Kessel's Retreat with the changes. It'll be near impossible. Even with a DC it will mean to be dying a lot... and therefore completely taking the fun out of playing this class.
The changes to unstoppable make it useless for those cases where it really is needed. Going Sentinel is not really an option because of the DPS lost.
If this change is made to balance PvP and you really want to stick to it, please consider to apply it only during PvP. It just breaks the class in PvE.
Let me clarify my reason for why playing the GWF is so much fun (PvE only). With the current Unstoppable mechanics it is a thrilling cycle of taking enough damage to be able to go unstoppable and dealing enough damage to be able to get healed by Life Steal. This cycle is no longer possible with the changes to Unstoppable.
As others have pointed out the changes to the GWF's prone powers may be enough to make it more balanced in PvP. Please reconsider the changes to Unstoppable.
Unstoppable: Unstoppable now grants 5~10% damage resist ..down from 25~50%
to reduce Unstoppable to 5%~10% are really outrageous!/Not Acceptable. 15% - 35% damage resist could be reasonable,
and probably most acceptable for all mainly GWFs for a good agreement.
i would understand if u nerf all other skill But Not the Heart of GWF!
This will certainly have to produce negative aftereffect for Neverwinter,
it could be the downfall of NW, Please do not leave it too.
<::::::[]==0 GwF 0==[]::::::> ● Still waiting for the promised Improvement ●
I feel that the changes to Unstoppable destroy the class mechanics. I was just fighting a young Rhemoraz in Icewind Dale. On live I can stay in its red attack area. I take damage, go unstoppable and heal with the 14% life steal I have. On preview I take too much damage while being unstoppable. Therefore I can't heal myself with life steal and have to rely on taking pots or trying to run away - which does not guarantee to avoid damage.
This is the essence. I tried out a GWF on preview and now it's actually interesting to play, because I have to learn how to dodge and move and avoid red and use potions strategically.
With these changes I might actually focus on my GWF - it was way too boring before.
Comments
- Determination gain will no longer be subject to variance. This will make Determination gain more normalized.
Powers- Mark: Mark will now taunt foes briefly as well as place the player at the top of the threat list. Do the marks still go away when we're hit? Otherwise thats just a second of attention.
- Roar: This power has been fixed to no longer silence opponents for 2 seconds. Instead it correctly interrupts power usage. If a power is successfully interrupted, that power will be locked out for 2 seconds. This effect will no longer pierce CC immunity. Roar will no longer Root players for 2 seconds. I didnt think all of this was needed. All that needed to be done was fix it from going through CC immunity.
- Unstoppable: Unstoppable now grants 5~10% damage resist when activated (down from 25~50%) This is just too much. We have no means of mitigating damage and no reliable dodge. We are on the front lines soaking up damage with no real means to mitigate it now.
- Takedown: This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs.
- Takedown: This power now deals ~30% less damage. Why was this change nessecary?
- Iron Vanguard: Frontline Surge: This power now stuns players rather than proning them. No change on NPCs. I hope this is GWF specific. Prones are the only thing keeping GF's even remotely relevant in pvp.
- Iron Vanguard: Threatening Rush: This power now has 3 charges which refresh every 9 seconds. This better be GWF specific..cause unlike GWF, GF's have very little mobility as it is.
FeatsFeedback: GWF - Unstoppable; As discussed before this patch went live, GWF's gain mob-attention when using IBS and Threatening Rush (appears conal). This effectively means that the destroyer feat increasing the damage of IBS will now leave a lingering dmg based threat on the target after the initial hand-off has been made to the SentGWF/GF (PvE DPS). The Taunt is fine, it's the top of the threat meter and increased damage output of a pve destroyer that wrecks this option in practicality. GWF runs in, subsumes to the GF. GWF uses IBS, IBS applies taunt, IBS applies Mark, IBS applies 90k-1xxk dmg, Top of the threat meter quickly becomes uncatchable threat due to the 90k-1xxk dmg (fully debuffed NPC) + AoE Not So Fast or Wicked Strike (Don't have weapon master's strike anymore)
I feel that with the increased dmg arc of GWF's they will consistently gain aggro from the 4th, 5th and 6th adds as the GF doesn't pull the aggro back. This will lead to GWF stacking and will (once again) exclude the GF.
It does look like a GWF will have to pay 78k AD to respec for PvP and back again and I think that the Unstoppable capstone (Sentinel Tree) is good for the game. However, no new details have been released regarding content (understandable).
If there is a new Arena / Battleground please take into account the increased mobility of the 18 PvP Campaign Achievements choice "Tactical Redeployment" in the design of the map. This will increase the survivability of the GWF as less players in the same area is effective damage reduction. I wouldn't mind moving out of range with Sprint and dragging 1-2 players away from their group as it would maintain the survivability lost in the Unstoppable nerf. Currently the main focus fire method is the certain way to deal with the GWF.
Also, please re-examine the stacking of movement boons on the GWF, as it stands it's like Rank 8's and ALL movement boons leave my GWF running slower than Rank 7's and no boons (Inspect on friendlies and in Caer-Konig after GG). I'm at 180ms ping and have little to no pending packing/unpacking (rarely over 60% CPU usage multi-tasking, RAM is lower).
It is as though the word deprecated is sewn somewhere into my character sheet's movement field on the server.
Unstoppable (non-sentinel): My GWF is well geared with endless consumption so i did not notice much change doing solo content. Soloed 5 man HE (wolves) noticed things hurt alot more. Managed to solo though. Died a few times testing the water, dodging in and out with sprint and using spinning strike as my daily.
Now im not saying this is balanced by all means. My gwf has 1k+ regen AND 1400+ lifesteal AND endless consumption. as well as pretty good stats. I think the reduction to 10% is too much of a nerf, perhaps consider raising it to 12.5-25% because leveling players, new 60s and gearing up players are going to have SO much pain and death, they are going to be faced with very difficult odds until they get gear. I have no doubt GWFs will die more than any other class if this change goes live, most will get fustrated.
I have yet to test in a real dungeon, but right now i don't think 10% will cut it in the dangerous dungeons, You should be able to take enough damage to get out of danger but not so much you don't have a chance (since they have no dod
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
Really hope that you reconsider this nerf - the fighter char in D&D is supposed to be the big one that takes on the mob while the wzard stays back and casts, and the rogue picks off stragglers. This is no longer the case with these changes. It's a shame that the needs of a few in pvp are about to ruin the game - pve and all - for many of us.
I'm about GWF getting put in line, but these changes are overkill.
threatening rush did not have a cool down when i played on the test server at 5:15-6:00PM (PST) 6/20/14
You said you wanted to change a few things on the PvP side, but this change affects a lot PvE.
That reduction is ridiculous, and this will clearly affect too much low geared GWF players.
All the other changes are welcome, and probably enough to affect the GWF in PvP.
Some of these nerfs (or fixes) are just and long overdue, but I fear that these changes will bring GWF's much closer in line with the underpowered classes than where GWF's (and obviously the current UP classes) should be at. These changes, if ALL are implemented, feel more like divine retribution or even revenge for reigning supreme for so long as opposed to trying to bring GWF's closer to the ideal mid-range where everyone can compete on equal footing.
When this goes live GWF's will have poor damage mitigation, poor self-healing (since the DR from Unstoppable also let Regen/Lifesteal catch up with the lost HP), poor mobility, mediocre control and very likely also poor damage output.
CC immunity and (unrealized) damage POTENTIAL will be all they have going for them. GWF encounters are already pretty telegraphed and, when familiar with the class, not that hard to dodge. Our most damaging encounters are pretty slow to activate and with no reason to stand still for a GWF (since you can still move during stun and after being hit with Threatening Rush), it will be very hard to get a rotation off, except after using a daily. How are we supposed to get to and ever stay on a target if we cannot ever stop it from moving? At the very least one of our encounters should retain its prone component.
I implore you to reconsider implementing all of these changes, it will make the class a lot less fun, and will not do much to change the class balance. It will tip the scales in the opposite direction, but not solve the overall problem.
What's the intention when you substitute prone with stun effects for PVP?
That said... I'm not really sure how comfortable I am with the massive nerf to unstoppable's defense. On paper (and likely in practice) it's a MASSIVE loss. Possibly too much of one. Remember a long time ago, when sometimes GWF or TR tab abilities would completely bug out and become unusable until death? Trying to play a GWF after that bug kicked in was unbearably difficult - you attack kinda slow and you have no usable defensive mechanisms with most ability setups. I feel like this will be sort of bringing this back.
I can respect that you want to move some of its defensive utility to Sentinel. Really, it's a pretty neat idea to do so. However, cutting the defensive properties of it by 80% for anybody who doesn't have the Sentinel capstone is... pretty awful. Low level players will hit ten, and go "... oh hey, I can become a bit bigger?" and not be enthusiastic about it - they won't feel good on activating it. It CAN feel kind of ridiculous in high level play right now, though, I will agree with that - so perhaps something less severe than an 80% loss would be called for?
Also, just going to point out: the continued lack of acknowledgement of Instigator continues to make me kind of laugh.
Something everyone seems to have overlooked when saying "this will make you choose to be tanky or deal damage" is that GWF has no ranged fighting capability. Even if a tank is holding the boss, a Destroyer GWF is dead meat to the boss' ginormous red circle of doom, or else give up any actual DPS output to run away. Other classes have ranged damage output, so when red is literally surrounding the boss, they can maintain DPS. GWF loses their DPS and has to run away or die. This is going to put PvE GWFs back to where they were before mod2 came out. A.K.A. not really wanted in DD due to low damage or else constant death.
The idea was to have a buffed wicked strike to work in synergy with the weakly buffed WMS. This is from a PvE perspective. Rather than a weakly buffed WMS with a heavily buffed Sure strike, which does not help much with add clearance. With the upcoming nerfs to CW, add clearance may become a huge problem and it would be great to buff a GWFs AoE rather than single target damage. The sure strike buff helps in PvP (although it may need to be dialed down a little bit).
I agree, i was probably OP as it was, and having to choose tankiness or DPS is a good thing, but as many have pointed out, 5-10% is FAR too little when you consider that GWFs have no real means of escaping damage.
i personally feel 15-30% would be much more reasonable
And what about PvE - how am I supposed to survive with 5-10% damage resist. I don't have great resists and now I'm gonna die from every bigger AoE on Unstoppable.
I can somehow understand that in PvP it was OP but I'm not a PvP player and now I will suffer cause of PvP changes.
So if it's for PvP why don't you change stats just in PvP areas. When you join PvP it could be changed to 5-10%.
In PvE 25-50 like it was or if you really want to change that make it 15-30.
But 5-10? I don't know why should I use Unstoppable at all if any bigger boss will kill with his AoE laughing at my 5% resistance.
The Great weapon fighter was built to be the best of both worlds. I built my GWF on a mixture of both. Forceing me to spec differently just for what i want to do, is not helping.
Dialing back the Debuff in PVP -exlusively- would be acceptable too. if PVP is such an issue. Healing in PVP was, and you fixed that aptly.
I agree with the above post. Dial it back to 15-30. Dont. Make it. 5-10. There's no point in that, other then dumbing down all of the GWF;s capability for Player Vs Player.
istigator is still useless path can u at least ad something to capstone skill like this :your at wills reduce targets def by 10% per stack and it can stack 3x times
why did u nerfed unstopaple so much?it was only good thing on gwf u should just made it to pop based on max hp% for example u need to lose some 20% hp for half bar and 40% for full and removed self heals form it
and can u ask sets designer to balance 4 part sets bonuses high wiz and high prophet needes huge nerf or other classes need to get good team sets like this
yeah i agree with u i cant see now gwf to be alive more then 5-10 secs in all the trash mobs swarms and their 15-20k skill spawns this will just make cw teams even better then now since gwf will be instant dead soon fight start
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this power should have only 2 charges not 3 3 charges will not solve nothing gf and gwf will be still able to easy get to ppl in pvp
However, what is no longer possible is to drag the entire dungeon behind you and hope to survive it by using Unstoppable. For fighting up to 2-3 rooms of mobs (with at least 3k defense and 1.5k deflect and the Heroic armor Specialization), it still does very well.
People need to change the way they think/play really. GWF was overpowered for quite a while and the changes bring it more in line with the other classes, and make those other classes have a role as well. Play the game as it was intended (clear dungeon room by room) rather than "roflstomp" it by having everything and their dog follow you and expect them to melt when you turn around to start swinging.
Also, GWFs for too long were able to ignore any Red Circle whilst Unstoppable. Now we actually need to think about which Red Circles we can get hit by and which we can't - and use Sprint/Mighty Leap/Daily Power to get out of it.
The devs wanted to make GF and GWF more different (GF more tanky less damage, GWF less tanky more damage) from the status quo where GWF was both more tanky and high damage. They did that quite well IMO. Just need some fine tuning on GF to make their stamina bar work better so that they can actually survive holding the aggro while others hit the mobs.
Agree with most of what you are saying. I feel the direction some of these changes have taken is great, in terms of balance. No class should be allowed to have the best of all worlds. I just wish it wasn't dropped to 5-10% but more like a reasonable 15-25%.
I just imagine doing Kessel's Retreat with the changes. It'll be near impossible. Even with a DC it will mean to be dying a lot... and therefore completely taking the fun out of playing this class.
The changes to unstoppable make it useless for those cases where it really is needed. Going Sentinel is not really an option because of the DPS lost.
If this change is made to balance PvP and you really want to stick to it, please consider to apply it only during PvP. It just breaks the class in PvE.
Let me clarify my reason for why playing the GWF is so much fun (PvE only). With the current Unstoppable mechanics it is a thrilling cycle of taking enough damage to be able to go unstoppable and dealing enough damage to be able to get healed by Life Steal. This cycle is no longer possible with the changes to Unstoppable.
As others have pointed out the changes to the GWF's prone powers may be enough to make it more balanced in PvP. Please reconsider the changes to Unstoppable.
Unstoppable: Unstoppable now grants 5~10% damage resist ..down from 25~50%
to reduce Unstoppable to 5%~10% are really outrageous!/Not Acceptable.
15% - 35% damage resist could be reasonable,
and probably most acceptable for all mainly GWFs for a good agreement.
i would understand if u nerf all other skill But Not the Heart of GWF!
This will certainly have to produce negative aftereffect for Neverwinter,
it could be the downfall of NW, Please do not leave it too.
This is the essence. I tried out a GWF on preview and now it's actually interesting to play, because I have to learn how to dodge and move and avoid red and use potions strategically.
With these changes I might actually focus on my GWF - it was way too boring before.