I never saw anybody in this topic actually asking for CWs to be able to facetank GWFs or TRs. Anybody seen such a post?
If CWs are to survive such encounters 1vs1, they should win one by kiting and outsmarting. How do you kite? WITH Crowd Control. What are CWs supposed to be best class in game at? Crowd Control.
Is the CW best CC class in PvP?
No, by far. HRs, GF and GWFs have better CC than the Control class.
I think this is the issue.
Also, the squishy classes in other MMOs have lots of burst to compensate for them dying easily. Now, the CW class still has a bit of burst, but overall it has been neutered by:
- bad PvP gear. No more High Vizier debuffs from us in PvP. No more regen on the +HP gear we should wear, so even the rings and belt and amulet would need to be defensive, with HP and Regeneration.
- Tenacity. This helps us too. But our burst was still made much worse by this stat. CWs had isues with tanky, geared toons before. Now they have Tenacity as well.
So I'd say CW class issues are:
- inefficient, second class CC, even if fully specced for it
- less burst than we used to have
- not enough survivability to compensate for the above weaknesses
Being focused first is a symptom of people recognizing CWs die fastest. This should NOT be the case. Focusing order should be determined not by class, but by player, such as "that X class doesn't dodge too well and seems a bit undergeared. We focus it first".
1)read the OP. He was complaining about CWs inferior dr/regen/hp. Once again, READ PLEASE.(facepalms AGAIN)
2)I never argued against bringing their damage/cc back to high levels, actually argued for it(facepalms a 3rd time).
3)When tenacity pvp came out, we were told CWs were getting a control bonus, but it seems not so. This would've been fine, IMO.
4)You try to explain away that CWs get targeted because their easy targets. Have you ever played pvp? I have, across several mmorpgs and have come across this: the melee class is whacking you with their weapon, while a caster is chanting in the background. Which do you choose: the melee class smacking you, or the caster who's most likely not as tough, but CASTING MANY A CONCEIVABLE SPELL THAT WILL POTENTIALLY HURT YOU WAY MORE THAN A CLUB OR SWORD SMACKING YOU. Some may think "oh it's a weak class", but me(and many others in current AND past threads) have spoken that prioritizing targets is NOT a sign of weakness. Play any other MMO, or even D&D. It's that simple. Are you kidding me? If I spy a "weak" class, I do the opposite: I go after the threats first, clear the weaker classes last. You want to play your? Not a problem. But don't dump half truths. Yes, CWs need help. But DO NOT think they're weak. They just need PvP help.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
1)read the OP. He was complaining about CWs inferior dr/regen/hp. Once again, READ PLEASE.(facepalms AGAIN)
2)I never argued against bringing their damage/cc back to high levels, actually argued for it(facepalms a 3rd time).
3)When tenacity pvp came out, we were told CWs were getting a control bonus, but it seems not so. This would've been fine, IMO.
4)You try to explain away that CWs get targeted because their easy targets. Have you ever played pvp? I have, across several mmorpgs and have come across this: the melee class is whacking you with their weapon, while a caster is chanting in the background. Which do you choose: the melee class smacking you, or the caster who's most likely not as tough, but CASTING MANY A CONCEIVABLE SPELL THAT WILL POTENTIALLY HURT YOU WAY MORE THAN A CLUB OR SWORD SMACKING YOU. Some may think "oh it's a weak class", but me(and many others in current AND past threads) have spoken that prioritizing targets is NOT a sign of weakness. Play any other MMO, or even D&D. It's that simple.
Stop facepalming that much, you'll hurt yourself. The OP didn't ask to facetank anything.
Overall you seem to have many issues with CWs in PvP. As a GWF/GF/TR/CW and lately HR player, I'd say you should open a topic and ask for help in how to deal with them if you think they are that good, I'll be happy to help you.
And yes, in this game, the GWF hurts way more with his abilities/big sword than the CW with his spells.
Stop facepalming that much, you'll hurt yourself. The OP didn't ask to facetank anything.
Overall you seem to have many issues with CWs in PvP. As a GWF/GF/TR/CW and lately HR player, I'd say you should open a topic and ask for help in how to deal with them if you think they are that good, I'll be happy to help you.
And yes, in this game, the GWF hurts way more with his abilities/big sword than the CW with his spells.
This is actually funny. When it comes right down to it, YOU don't seem to read either. I feel like I'm basically talking to players who don't know each classes' strengths and weaknesses, I think YOU might be the one needing help .
By the way, someone saying the GWFs sword abilities hurt more than CWs, have never understood(or even played this game long enough) to understand why they were both nerfed AND buffed(both CWs AND GWFs(in the past))in the first place.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
I have a CW build for PvP. I can hit every classwith same or higher GS 1 vs 1 if i play good except the TRs with perma build. I mean its not fair against perma, i cant hit em and they slowly kill me. pls do something against that a 1 vs 1 (same GS) should be a fair fight against every class. thx
I have a CW build for PvP. I can hit every classwith same or higher GS 1 vs 1 if i play good except the TRs with perma build. I mean its not fair against perma, i cant hit em and they slowly kill me. pls do something against that a 1 vs 1 (same GS) should be a fair fight against every class. thx
Come on, you know you're lying. There's no way CWs can beat anyone 1v1. Have you not been listening to everybody but me(and yourself now) in the forum?
Anyway, perma TRs are pains, due to the fact that the melee classes have the capability to tank them, in the hopes that they can eventually catch an opening for a point blank attack(best one being fox's shift atm).
Steal time damages them, but it's activation time takes too long.
Icy terrain is the same AND its aoe size bites.
The lantern artifact requires you main slot an artifact with 2 minute(at best) cooldown with a chance to see them for 6 seconds.
Shield might be okay, but the reactivation between shield bursts means you only get 1 between fights anyway.
The above suggestions are weak choices, so I wouldn't count on them, but others would've just told you anyway.
My proposal: they make a new ability for CWs that functions like HRs Thorn Ward. An aoe that does damage AND has a visual effect that lets only the CW(for power balance) see the TR while he/she is within the aoe.
Just a suggestion...
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
I think we're all wasting our breath with these two.
And I think we're all wasting our breath on someone whose only statement was a complaint about a class getting "targeted too much means it's weak". But I'm still here, even if narrow minded people like you don't listen, let alone try.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
I would gladly buff cw dmg if you reduced their range, or even make spell dmg range based. A good meatball cw could be scary.
Now here's someone being constructive. You're not going to whine that CWs are weak, like almost everyone else?
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Come on, you know you're lying. There's no way CWs can beat anyone 1v1. Have you not been listening to everybody but me(and yourself now) in the forum?
I have issued that challenge to ANY CW in this server. Beat Jerkface or Gerftylog or SteamRoller in a 1v1 match using a CW. They are all twitch streamers with VOD so everyone can see it live or watch the evidence later.
So far, no one has stepped up. All the CWs have failed.
Fact of the matter is, at HIGH END PVP, an elite CW will lose 9 out of 10 times to an elite GWF or TR.
And please, if you beat on a buncha PUGs or are pretty much lowering yourself to that guy who posted a thread about his CW and his premade Enemy Team guild mowing through PUGs.
Of course an elite player with full gear will beat a PUG with incomplete gear
I have issued that challenge to ANY CW in this server. Beat Jerkface or Gerftylog or SteamRoller in a 1v1 match using a CW. They are all twitch streamers with VOD so everyone can see it live or watch the evidence later.
So far, no one has stepped up. All the CWs have failed.
Fact of the matter is, at HIGH END PVP, an elite CW will lose 9 out of 10 times to an elite GWF or TR.
And please, if you beat on a buncha PUGs or are pretty much lowering yourself to that guy who posted a thread about his CW and his premade Enemy Team guild mowing through PUGs.
Of course an elite player with full gear will beat a PUG with incomplete gear
True, and I'd like to see the videos too. That'd be something to watch
My whole part in the discussion has been about average pvp. Whether through pugging and/or normal pvp, THAT is the majority of pvp. That's my only defense at this point. High end pvp, you're talking about the elite, top notch, bought the hell out of their enchants/gear players. The scenarios there are less random, more focused, so of course the issues there CAN be discovered/localized.
And do all these threads need to devolve into "I want video proof that this happens"? Shoot, I facetanked 2 GFs in one match I had soon after the pvp change, but I don't want nor should need to videotape it to legitimize that it happened. Middle to Low end pvp IS the majority of pvp. The randomness of non-elite pvp shows classes of all type, gear, enchantments fighting it out against each other. It belies how a class fares against every other class with differing gearscores, set ups, team compositions, tactics.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
True, and I'd like to see the videos too. That'd be something to watch
My whole part I the discussion has been about average pvp. Whether through pugging and/or normal pvp, THAT is the majority of pvp. That's my only defense at this point. High end pvp, you're talking about the elite, top notch, bought the hell out of their enchants/gear players. The scenarios there are less random, more focused, so of course the issues there CAN be discovered/localized.
Other than skill development, one of the big changes in top end PVP is that everyone is tankier.
As cryptic releases better gear, as enchantments become devalued due to rampant botting, as players generally progress up, everyone goes into a situation more and more similar to high end PVP.
The thing is, PVE endgame has slowly turned into a joke. There is nothing worthwhile to do. A lot of the high end PVE players have begun making toons for PVP. Don't forget module 3 is also PVP focused. I think the issue is become more and more larger than a few select PVP guilds battling it out and complaining about imbalances in their games to the rest of the community.
Also here is another big thing: An average GWF or permastealth TR will have a moderate amount of chance beating a top tier CW. An average CW will have zero chance of beating a toptier GWF or TR. Now THAT coupled with everything else stated has been ingrained in a lot of PVP matches we see today due to the poor ELO system.
My whole part in the discussion has been about average pvp. Whether through pugging and/or normal pvp, THAT is the majority of pvp.
CWs suffer no matter what the circumstances, if a top tier pvp cw will full r10s perfects and legendary artifacts, is dieing to a crappy pve destroyer gwf.. there is a problem.. and yes this happens
This is actually funny. When it comes right down to it, YOU don't seem to read either. I feel like I'm basically talking to players who don't know each classes' strengths and weaknesses, I think YOU might be the one needing help .
if you seriously think cws are fine where they are right now... i think YOU might be the one needing help
5th. you seem to think everyone wants cw's to be tankier,
Once again and for the final time, I know CWs aren't up there in pvp(I do know someone else will come on later and say I didn't say this, you people DO NOT read at all it seems). But I do also know that the class that has more to offer in team play is constantly knocked because IT CANT FACETANK MELEE FIGHTERS.
you are mistaken, we want CWs to actually have some damage versus the tankier classes. a 2k ice knife on a GWF not in unstoppable is not right, and it happens quite frequently. of course CWs are not a 1v1 class, and they have the best possible utility(freezing/stunning), but if you do no damage at all, you cant possibly help your team by clearing a node 2v2. then what is your use? you go there, die and leave your teammate 1v2 as velynna was saying. if a cw is only good clearing a point if its 2v1 then you might as well not bring a cw and bring another tr or gwf or hr, well, pretty much anything else
also, i would like to add, beyond fixing what is obviously wrong with cws at the moment, its impossible to make a cw "the best" thing you could have in pvp since classes like gwfs and trs can always break out of your CC's and in the gwfs case prone chain you to death, and in a tr's case, stealth and path of blades + bilethorn you to death while you cant even see them..
That's the thing... the poster's not hijacking the thread. You want to make a "valid" argument about cw's in pvp, yes. But youre not accounting for what boosting cw's will do to the game overall. You turn them into the best(or at least up there) class in pvp, and now you have a class that most people will want to play in pve AND pvp. Im not saying that they shouldn't be buffed a little possibly, but if you buff them so theyre high up on the pecking order of pvp as well, who would want to play anything else? Or should people ask that the cw's get buffed in pvp, so in return, I want my gf capable of mass cc and crowd kill(arcane singularity, oppressive force, shard of the endless avalanche, steal time, etc)?
What you said is already the case with gwfs and TR's, they made GF's useless already by giving gwfs their paragon path, they tried doing the same to DC's with healing depression ( not to mention useless in pve but i digress, this isnt a pve thread), the only classes remaining to really play are GWF, which is skillless facerolling, TR, which is skillless facerolling, oh an HRs where, its you plop down thorn ward and fox shift people to death, the only remaining class that truly requires skill to play is cw, yet we get wrecked by classes who all they have to do is hit a tab or hit itc + tab to kill us. we have no more CC to cc them. we have no damage to actually hurt them, we might aswell be moving targets with 35k+ who run to a point to die just to stall long enough for a useful class to get back
I think we're all wasting our breath with these two.
Yes I think so.
Some posters made all kinds of accusations and rave against whatever subject they hate, and they don't even understand who they are talking to.
But it's fine. Since you're too modest for it, I'll do what's supposed to be done.
velynna here is the leader of the best PvP guild on the game for many many months. She has lead numerous premade teams consisting of the best players we have in the game to almost as many victories. Her guild also has the best CWs in the game, so she has some serious insight into the problem. She is also probably the best DC in the game.
So it's pretty dumb to talk to her like she's never seen PvP or she's some PvE CW with 20K HP begging for some buff. If you were PvP players yourselves, you would know to show respect to who deserves it.
also, i would like to add, beyond fixing what is obviously wrong with cws at the moment, its impossible to make a cw "the best" thing you could have in pvp since classes like gwfs and trs can always break out of your CC's and in the gwfs case prone chain you to death, and in a tr's case, stealth and path of blades + bilethorn you to death while you cant even see them..
What you said is already the case with gwfs and TR's, they made GF's useless already by giving gwfs their paragon path, they tried doing the same to DC's with healing depression ( not to mention useless in pve but i digress, this isnt a pve thread), the only classes remaining to really play are GWF, which is skillless facerolling, TR, which is skillless facerolling, oh an HRs where, its you plop down thorn ward and fox shift people to death, the only remaining class that truly requires skill to play is cw, yet we get wrecked by classes who all they have to do is hit a tab or hit itc + tab to kill us. we have no more CC to cc them. we have no damage to actually hurt them, we might aswell be moving targets with 35k+ who run to a point to die just to stall long enough for a useful class to get back
Eh, I'm playing an HR now and it takes as much skill as my CW (who uses shard on tab).
Thorn ward is questionable in my mind for the damage it does, because you're going to have to give up some utility for it.
Fights against an HR should be doable since we have no way to get out of CC. Icy Rays is my bane in PVP- the only thing that can really stop me- I can dodge everything else.
CWs have the most trouble with GWFs and TRs- the same classes everyone has the most trouble with.
The more I play and the more I get shut down by good CWs, I'm starting to question the whole "gimped in PVP" thing.
At all I am agree with community that CW is not a threat in PVP, most times when I see them they are death fast and I really do not put much skills to kill them.
Well, next patch walking to us, and we will see what will happen with so long untouched CW this time.
Queue systems show the next problem and it is less and less ppl for PVP. If Cryptic do not fix CW in Module 3 for both PVP and PVE, I suppose that PVP will be near to death after more ppl leaving.
I fear laziness which showed Cryptic before when they "fix" GWF with copy paste from GF... I am really curious what a mess they will give us this time.
Well the Dev in charge of balance, or rather character design said they would be busy for quite some time with GWF and HR. The more I pvp the more I see the problem with Cw's. I am by no means a good pvp'er, but I have pvp'd enough to get to a level where I recognize the CW problems. When I first started pvp cw's were a pain, but as I aquired gear and got better, they became much less a serious threat by themselves.
I am not counting the very good ones who have beaten me because that is a desparity in skill, race and build. Given every class at equal skill/gear to me, CW is the least of my worries 1v1,(well actually GF is , but I am a GF so I will never admit saying that ) at the same time, they are my #1 target in group engagements because of thier ability to lock me down, if I am not pressuring them.
Something needs to be tweaked, but I am also concerned that, as usual cryptic will go to far and gwf's will be replaced by CW's.
But that's not being "constructive" at all. One of the advantages CWs are supposed to have is range. If you give CWs less range, then it requires also making them tankier, because it would be even more difficult to maintain distance and kite opponents.
CWs have already taken a number of effective nerfs to their range, which is one of the reasons they are so bad.
- GWFs got Threatening Rush, so they can never be kited effectively, between that, sprint and utility powers to boost their speed. CWs are effectively melee range against GWFs already. The solution here is to nerf Threatening Rush.
- Between Tenacity, halfling cc resistance, dwarf pushing resistance, and maybe Deflect affecting cc effects, Repel doesn't work. No way to push people away and create more distance.
- Ranged attacks were always ineffective against TRs due to stealth. As an added cherry on top, TRs also get a utility power to move faster while in stealth, so you can't really run away from them if they want to chase you.
- GFs always had their Lunging Strike and Threatening Rush to close gaps. Boosting the range of Bull Charge just made it a bit easier. Still, they're the easiest class for CWs to kite. Maybe the only class that's actually possible to kite.
- HRs will beat CWs by using Constricting Arrow and Disruptive Shot to prevent CWs from casting anything, then perform a Fox Shift mercy-killing while the CW can't dodge due to being constricted. The solution here is probably to do something about Constricting Arrow.
- Which leaves DCs and other CWs. Against whom creating distance is pointless.
Giving CWs more damage/less range would be an absurd "solution." What they need is the ability to create and maintain distance (fix Repel, Threatening Rush, Constricting Arrow) and some more control (ignore 100% of Tenacity, reduce halfling cc resistance).
Oh no, I'm no totally agreeing with this guy. Out of all the people im arguing with, this is just one of the only guys who isn't immediately on the "waaah my class is weak, buff it to hell" bandwagon.
In my opinion, yes they need to fix moves such as repel, and give CWs range maintainers, like HRs roots and Constricting Arrow. I believe that's part of what made the HR initially better.
Thing is, you weaken/reduce those HR moves and melee gap closer, that tips the balance the other way too. Now all of a sudden, no one can ever approach the wizard. He, in essence becomes invincible. In every MMO I've played, the Mage has ways to teleport away, or keep his target in place, but not indefinitely. The melee classes also had gap closer and limited range abilities. It was as hard for a melee to reach the Mage as it was for the Mage to keep them away.
And thank you . Another poster who isn't whining or raging, but coming up with clear suggestions instead of "waaaaah I'm weak as hell, make me stronger", instead of coming up with actual balancing thoughts.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Eh, I'm playing an HR now and it takes as much skill as my CW (who uses shard on tab).
Thorn ward is questionable in my mind for the damage it does, because you're going to have to give up some utility for it.
Fights against an HR should be doable since we have no way to get out of CC. Icy Rays is my bane in PVP- the only thing that can really stop me- I can dodge everything else.
CWs have the most trouble with GWFs and TRs- the same classes everyone has the most trouble with.
The more I play and the more I get shut down by good CWs, I'm starting to question the whole "gimped in PVP" thing.
Thing is, everyone in here is all on the "buff me or nerf everything else" bandwagon here. I've been beat plenty on my HR by CWs but I don't go straight to "waaaah this class is OP!". The CW isn't the best PvP class ATM, and it bites. But good CWs still exist, AND it's not impossible for them to win. People just don't see it.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Some posters made all kinds of accusations and rave against whatever subject they hate, and they don't even understand who they are talking to.
But it's fine. Since you're too modest for it, I'll do what's supposed to be done.
velynna here is the leader of the best PvP guild on the game for many many months. She has lead numerous premade teams consisting of the best players we have in the game to almost as many victories. Her guild also has the best CWs in the game, so she has some serious insight into the problem. She is also probably the best DC in the game.
So it's pretty dumb to talk to her like she's never seen PvP or she's some PvE CW with 20K HP begging for some buff. If you were PvP players yourselves, you would know to show respect to who deserves it.
So, I take it you don't read past posts either?
Here's the thing: you ever hear the phrase "respect is earned, not given"? I grew up on that motto.
1)SHES IN A PVP PREMADE GUILD. So initially, you can say, yes, she has experience. But how is that "experience" when you're playing WITH BIS PVP PLAYERS ON YOUR TEAM ALL THE TIME?
2)she's not down in the trenches with the soldiers(can't believe I have to say that... again. I'm not facepalming anymore. People just do not read).
3)You say she has the best CWs in the game? Okay, so why are BiS, high end pvp players whining. I've seen those CWs wreck low end GWFs/HRs pretty much all the time! High end PvP is almost completely different than normal, average pvp.
In summary, I respect the average lowly soldier who's always in the trenches, as opposed to elitist, on top of the world players who never had the opportunity to play through the muck, so stay on your high horse people, I just don't care.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
But that's not being "constructive" at all. One of the advantages CWs are supposed to have is range. If you give CWs less range, then it requires also making them tankier, because it would be even more difficult to maintain distance and kite opponents.
Im not talking about making their range non existent, but if it could be range based,
if your max range is 80, say normal damage occurs at 40, -25% at 60 -50% at 80, +25% at 20 and +50% facetank range.
So, normal dmg at normal range, less for max range snipers, which really aren't a problem, and a big increase for people that want to face2face a CW.
Trying to think outside the box a little here, and probably more work than dev's are willing to put in.
I don't play CW, so im not going to whine about them being bad, just throwing some stuff into the mix out of boredom, if you would rather, I could troll you mother ****ers.
ok willie, first off, what matters IS the end game and if a class is demolished by EVERY single other class.. there is a problem.
2nd. please if you are going to speak on this forum quit spamming random posts such as
3rd.
CWs suffer no matter what the circumstances, if a top tier pvp cw will full r10s perfects and legendary artifacts, is dieing to a crappy pve destroyer gwf.. there is a problem.. and yes this happens
4th.
if you seriously think cws are fine where they are right now... i think YOU might be the one needing help
5th. you seem to think everyone wants cw's to be tankier,
you are mistaken, we want CWs to actually have some damage versus the tankier classes. a 2k ice knife on a GWF not in unstoppable is not right, and it happens quite frequently. of course CWs are not a 1v1 class, and they have the best possible utility(freezing/stunning), but if you do no damage at all, you cant possibly help your team by clearing a node 2v2. then what is your use? you go there, die and leave your teammate 1v2 as velynna was saying. if a cw is only good clearing a point if its 2v1 then you might as well not bring a cw and bring another tr or gwf or hr, well, pretty much anything else
I'm just going to address this first one, as you said a lot, but still basically the same things others have.
1st)high end pvp IS NOT the majority of PvP. Already been explained.
2nd)if you're going to regard MY RESPONSES TO OTHERS' SNIDE REMARKS, it denotes your bias, narrow mindedness on the topic. Where's your complaint on velynna's "I think we're wasting our breath on these two" snide, sarcastic remark?... I thought so.
3rd)if an 11k CW is getting picked in CN over a BiS 16k ranger because he's faster at clearing dungeons, is this ALSO not balance issues?( and believe me, my 14k DC getting kicked(while doing more than fine in healing/debuffing)so an 11k CW can clear it faster is bs, is it not?
4th)if you seriously think I think that, YOU not only need reading glasses, but YOU are the one in need of help(told you people I'd have to repeat myself, people just DO NOT read).
5th)problem is, you do. The OP'er was complaining that fighters have superior DR/HP/HP. That is in essence what makes them tankier. And others agreed with him. I'll chalk that up to your lack of reading as well.
YOU are mistaken. I already agreed on making their damage like it was in the past. Do you remember 1 hit ice knife age... I do(another ill chalk up to not reading).
The CW is best when LEFT ALONE(can't believe I have to explain this... Again. Sigh...). You people are(9 out of 10 times) the same people spamming "we have to 3v1 this guy". So, what are 2 members of the team with the 1 doing? Where is the "tanking" here if those teammates don't use those opportunities? And you people are too situated in 1v1 gameplay, when it's TEAM gameplay. Seriously, why aren't the tanks keeping the enemy in check? That's not a class issue, that's a team tactic issue. My best games as a CW are with GFs/GWFs who understand this. Not my fault high end pvp guilds don't seem to follow that 1, easy to explain, simple tactic.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
Thing is, everyone in here is all on the "buff me or nerf everything else" bandwagon here. I've been beat plenty on my HR by CWs but I don't go straight to "waaaah this class is OP!". The CW isn't the best PvP class ATM, and it bites. But good CWs still exist, AND it's not impossible for them to win. People just don't see it.
The reason a lot of people use the highend PVP examples is because it limits the variable of skill and gear.
I haven't been in your matches but who knows, maybe you were just outgeared and outskilled.
In twitch streams between top pvp guild premades, you could clearly see everyone has a legendary artifact, everyone has an emblem, everyone has BIS gear, everyone has rank 10s, everyone has a strong team, everyone has been PVPing at a high level for weeks to months, everyone is on raidcall coordinating their tactics.
In those matches where team tactics and class imbalance are the big variables, CW is a big big liability.
You are right, good CWs do exist, but they exist due to bad and undergeared players. They thrive on bad and undergeared players.
So you make a valid argument about "elitist PVPers" complaining about their own experiences, but isn't their matches a better indication of the underlying class imbalance (IE: not easily seen in PUG pvp matches, or affected by other variables in PUG pvp matches) in this game since it takes away 2 important variables namely player skill and gear?
The reason a lot of people use the highend PVP examples is because it limits the variable of skill and gear.
I haven't been in your matches but who knows, maybe you were just outgeared and outskilled.
In twitch streams between top pvp guild premades, you could clearly see everyone has a legendary artifact, everyone has an emblem, everyone has BIS gear, everyone has rank 10s, everyone has a strong team, everyone has been PVPing at a high level for weeks to months, everyone is on raidcall coordinating their tactics.
In those matches where team tactics and class imbalance are the big variables, CW is a big big liability.
You are right, good CWs do exist, but they exist due to bad and undergeared players. They thrive on bad and undergeared players.
So you make a valid argument about "elitist PVPers" complaining about their own experiences, but isn't their matches a better indication of the underlying class imbalance (IE: not easily seen in PUG pvp matches, or affected by other variables in PUG pvp matches) in this game since it takes away 2 important variables namely player skill and gear?
Thank you, now there's at least 4 people speaking reasonably about the issue here.
As I stated before, high end pvp IS NOT the majority of pvp. I explained that class imbalance is shown more specifically, I agree on that. But is it also possible that, even in high end pvp, sometimes, SOMETIMES you ALSO got outgeared/outskilled too? On my 14k PvP CW, I'd beat a 15k GWF and he'd call me "a lucky ****". I'd repeat the process, then he'd party and inspect my gear afterward. He called me a cheater, so all I had to do was explain that he left himself open at points, and I took advantage of his prone spamming, and kited him until his unstoppable ran out. He thanked me, and later pm'ed me compliments about the whole thing.
Message is, it's not always about gear, OPness, and such. Tactics and skill work too. My question is this: if these proclaimed pvp guilds, who do high end pvp all the time, where are the high end pvp tactics? Where is the team play? If they're so gosh darn great at pvp, why are they always running across 1v1 situations in 5v5 and 20v20 fights(seriously, according to these guys, they never fight as a team)? Granted, I know 1v1 happens at times, but seriously?
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
It's almost impossible to be a reliable Contol Wizard in PvP. I'm not talking executioner/perfect vorpal killing machine.
The Control mechanic is our Defense: TR have stealth, GF have shield, DC Heal, HR (6 Dodges and leather armor) . . .
Specific races have high immunity to Control
Class abilities make others immune to control
Armor Enchants can make control useless
Then you add TENACITY
Someone in your dev team Hates Control Wizards.
Why even create a class, call it control wizard and then create game mechanics around that to defeat the class.
The only class ability that extends Control is 15%. What is 15% of 1 second? Unnoticable.
yeah we kinda suck in pvp right. and have awful control. im sorry but this games devs are the most out of touch i have ever seen and the most lazy in terms of pvp hot fixes/balance. its stunning. its almost so bad that its impressive. the difference in my GWF and my Cw in pvp is mind boggling. to the ponit you wonder if the devs ever play/test. really poor. was hoping mod 3 would fix stuff but nope. ah well time for another 3 months break and hope something happens then.
hmm now i replaced my daily of with icestorm. works a little better against perma trs but still no real solution found. GWFs are not the problem for me i can kill em with skill and a lot of stamina. u guys talking about CW is range but its not possible to stay behind the front fighters cause of hr and tr and some powers u need to cast in the middle of the fight == u die fast. if u guys have good constructive tipps tell me. im a 15k PvP CW playing for a year have a lot of experience but theres a point u cant balance it with skill and tactics. (imagine enemy has 2 trs and ur team 0)
Comments
1)read the OP. He was complaining about CWs inferior dr/regen/hp. Once again, READ PLEASE.(facepalms AGAIN)
2)I never argued against bringing their damage/cc back to high levels, actually argued for it(facepalms a 3rd time).
3)When tenacity pvp came out, we were told CWs were getting a control bonus, but it seems not so. This would've been fine, IMO.
4)You try to explain away that CWs get targeted because their easy targets. Have you ever played pvp? I have, across several mmorpgs and have come across this: the melee class is whacking you with their weapon, while a caster is chanting in the background. Which do you choose: the melee class smacking you, or the caster who's most likely not as tough, but CASTING MANY A CONCEIVABLE SPELL THAT WILL POTENTIALLY HURT YOU WAY MORE THAN A CLUB OR SWORD SMACKING YOU. Some may think "oh it's a weak class", but me(and many others in current AND past threads) have spoken that prioritizing targets is NOT a sign of weakness. Play any other MMO, or even D&D. It's that simple. Are you kidding me? If I spy a "weak" class, I do the opposite: I go after the threats first, clear the weaker classes last. You want to play your? Not a problem. But don't dump half truths. Yes, CWs need help. But DO NOT think they're weak. They just need PvP help.
Stop facepalming that much, you'll hurt yourself. The OP didn't ask to facetank anything.
Overall you seem to have many issues with CWs in PvP. As a GWF/GF/TR/CW and lately HR player, I'd say you should open a topic and ask for help in how to deal with them if you think they are that good, I'll be happy to help you.
And yes, in this game, the GWF hurts way more with his abilities/big sword than the CW with his spells.
This is actually funny. When it comes right down to it, YOU don't seem to read either. I feel like I'm basically talking to players who don't know each classes' strengths and weaknesses, I think YOU might be the one needing help
By the way, someone saying the GWFs sword abilities hurt more than CWs, have never understood(or even played this game long enough) to understand why they were both nerfed AND buffed(both CWs AND GWFs(in the past))in the first place.
I think we're all wasting our breath with these two.
Come on, you know you're lying. There's no way CWs can beat anyone 1v1. Have you not been listening to everybody but me(and yourself now) in the forum?
Anyway, perma TRs are pains, due to the fact that the melee classes have the capability to tank them, in the hopes that they can eventually catch an opening for a point blank attack(best one being fox's shift atm).
Steal time damages them, but it's activation time takes too long.
Icy terrain is the same AND its aoe size bites.
The lantern artifact requires you main slot an artifact with 2 minute(at best) cooldown with a chance to see them for 6 seconds.
Shield might be okay, but the reactivation between shield bursts means you only get 1 between fights anyway.
The above suggestions are weak choices, so I wouldn't count on them, but others would've just told you anyway.
My proposal: they make a new ability for CWs that functions like HRs Thorn Ward. An aoe that does damage AND has a visual effect that lets only the CW(for power balance) see the TR while he/she is within the aoe.
Just a suggestion...
And I think we're all wasting our breath on someone whose only statement was a complaint about a class getting "targeted too much means it's weak". But I'm still here, even if narrow minded people like you don't listen, let alone try.
Now here's someone being constructive. You're not going to whine that CWs are weak, like almost everyone else?
I have issued that challenge to ANY CW in this server. Beat Jerkface or Gerftylog or SteamRoller in a 1v1 match using a CW. They are all twitch streamers with VOD so everyone can see it live or watch the evidence later.
So far, no one has stepped up. All the CWs have failed.
Fact of the matter is, at HIGH END PVP, an elite CW will lose 9 out of 10 times to an elite GWF or TR.
And please, if you beat on a buncha PUGs or are pretty much lowering yourself to that guy who posted a thread about his CW and his premade Enemy Team guild mowing through PUGs.
Of course an elite player with full gear will beat a PUG with incomplete gear
True, and I'd like to see the videos too. That'd be something to watch
My whole part in the discussion has been about average pvp. Whether through pugging and/or normal pvp, THAT is the majority of pvp. That's my only defense at this point. High end pvp, you're talking about the elite, top notch, bought the hell out of their enchants/gear players. The scenarios there are less random, more focused, so of course the issues there CAN be discovered/localized.
And do all these threads need to devolve into "I want video proof that this happens"? Shoot, I facetanked 2 GFs in one match I had soon after the pvp change, but I don't want nor should need to videotape it to legitimize that it happened. Middle to Low end pvp IS the majority of pvp. The randomness of non-elite pvp shows classes of all type, gear, enchantments fighting it out against each other. It belies how a class fares against every other class with differing gearscores, set ups, team compositions, tactics.
Other than skill development, one of the big changes in top end PVP is that everyone is tankier.
As cryptic releases better gear, as enchantments become devalued due to rampant botting, as players generally progress up, everyone goes into a situation more and more similar to high end PVP.
The thing is, PVE endgame has slowly turned into a joke. There is nothing worthwhile to do. A lot of the high end PVE players have begun making toons for PVP. Don't forget module 3 is also PVP focused. I think the issue is become more and more larger than a few select PVP guilds battling it out and complaining about imbalances in their games to the rest of the community.
Also here is another big thing: An average GWF or permastealth TR will have a moderate amount of chance beating a top tier CW. An average CW will have zero chance of beating a toptier GWF or TR. Now THAT coupled with everything else stated has been ingrained in a lot of PVP matches we see today due to the poor ELO system.
2nd. please if you are going to speak on this forum quit spamming random posts such as
3rd.
CWs suffer no matter what the circumstances, if a top tier pvp cw will full r10s perfects and legendary artifacts, is dieing to a crappy pve destroyer gwf.. there is a problem.. and yes this happens
4th. if you seriously think cws are fine where they are right now... i think YOU might be the one needing help
5th. you seem to think everyone wants cw's to be tankier, you are mistaken, we want CWs to actually have some damage versus the tankier classes. a 2k ice knife on a GWF not in unstoppable is not right, and it happens quite frequently. of course CWs are not a 1v1 class, and they have the best possible utility(freezing/stunning), but if you do no damage at all, you cant possibly help your team by clearing a node 2v2. then what is your use? you go there, die and leave your teammate 1v2 as velynna was saying. if a cw is only good clearing a point if its 2v1 then you might as well not bring a cw and bring another tr or gwf or hr, well, pretty much anything else
What you said is already the case with gwfs and TR's, they made GF's useless already by giving gwfs their paragon path, they tried doing the same to DC's with healing depression ( not to mention useless in pve but i digress, this isnt a pve thread), the only classes remaining to really play are GWF, which is skillless facerolling, TR, which is skillless facerolling, oh an HRs where, its you plop down thorn ward and fox shift people to death, the only remaining class that truly requires skill to play is cw, yet we get wrecked by classes who all they have to do is hit a tab or hit itc + tab to kill us. we have no more CC to cc them. we have no damage to actually hurt them, we might aswell be moving targets with 35k+ who run to a point to die just to stall long enough for a useful class to get back
Yes I think so.
Some posters made all kinds of accusations and rave against whatever subject they hate, and they don't even understand who they are talking to.
But it's fine. Since you're too modest for it, I'll do what's supposed to be done.
velynna here is the leader of the best PvP guild on the game for many many months. She has lead numerous premade teams consisting of the best players we have in the game to almost as many victories. Her guild also has the best CWs in the game, so she has some serious insight into the problem. She is also probably the best DC in the game.
So it's pretty dumb to talk to her like she's never seen PvP or she's some PvE CW with 20K HP begging for some buff. If you were PvP players yourselves, you would know to show respect to who deserves it.
Eh, I'm playing an HR now and it takes as much skill as my CW (who uses shard on tab).
Thorn ward is questionable in my mind for the damage it does, because you're going to have to give up some utility for it.
Fights against an HR should be doable since we have no way to get out of CC. Icy Rays is my bane in PVP- the only thing that can really stop me- I can dodge everything else.
CWs have the most trouble with GWFs and TRs- the same classes everyone has the most trouble with.
The more I play and the more I get shut down by good CWs, I'm starting to question the whole "gimped in PVP" thing.
Well, next patch walking to us, and we will see what will happen with so long untouched CW this time.
Queue systems show the next problem and it is less and less ppl for PVP. If Cryptic do not fix CW in Module 3 for both PVP and PVE, I suppose that PVP will be near to death after more ppl leaving.
I fear laziness which showed Cryptic before when they "fix" GWF with copy paste from GF... I am really curious what a mess they will give us this time.
I am not counting the very good ones who have beaten me because that is a desparity in skill, race and build. Given every class at equal skill/gear to me, CW is the least of my worries 1v1,(well actually GF is , but I am a GF so I will never admit saying that ) at the same time, they are my #1 target in group engagements because of thier ability to lock me down, if I am not pressuring them.
Something needs to be tweaked, but I am also concerned that, as usual cryptic will go to far and gwf's will be replaced by CW's.
Oh no, I'm no totally agreeing with this guy. Out of all the people im arguing with, this is just one of the only guys who isn't immediately on the "waaah my class is weak, buff it to hell" bandwagon.
In my opinion, yes they need to fix moves such as repel, and give CWs range maintainers, like HRs roots and Constricting Arrow. I believe that's part of what made the HR initially better.
Thing is, you weaken/reduce those HR moves and melee gap closer, that tips the balance the other way too. Now all of a sudden, no one can ever approach the wizard. He, in essence becomes invincible. In every MMO I've played, the Mage has ways to teleport away, or keep his target in place, but not indefinitely. The melee classes also had gap closer and limited range abilities. It was as hard for a melee to reach the Mage as it was for the Mage to keep them away.
And thank you
Thing is, everyone in here is all on the "buff me or nerf everything else" bandwagon here. I've been beat plenty on my HR by CWs but I don't go straight to "waaaah this class is OP!". The CW isn't the best PvP class ATM, and it bites. But good CWs still exist, AND it's not impossible for them to win. People just don't see it.
So, I take it you don't read past posts either?
Here's the thing: you ever hear the phrase "respect is earned, not given"? I grew up on that motto.
1)SHES IN A PVP PREMADE GUILD. So initially, you can say, yes, she has experience. But how is that "experience" when you're playing WITH BIS PVP PLAYERS ON YOUR TEAM ALL THE TIME?
2)she's not down in the trenches with the soldiers(can't believe I have to say that... again. I'm not facepalming anymore. People just do not read).
3)You say she has the best CWs in the game? Okay, so why are BiS, high end pvp players whining. I've seen those CWs wreck low end GWFs/HRs pretty much all the time! High end PvP is almost completely different than normal, average pvp.
In summary, I respect the average lowly soldier who's always in the trenches, as opposed to elitist, on top of the world players who never had the opportunity to play through the muck, so stay on your high horse people, I just don't care.
Im not talking about making their range non existent, but if it could be range based,
if your max range is 80, say normal damage occurs at 40, -25% at 60 -50% at 80, +25% at 20 and +50% facetank range.
So, normal dmg at normal range, less for max range snipers, which really aren't a problem, and a big increase for people that want to face2face a CW.
Trying to think outside the box a little here, and probably more work than dev's are willing to put in.
I don't play CW, so im not going to whine about them being bad, just throwing some stuff into the mix out of boredom, if you would rather, I could troll you mother ****ers.
I'm just going to address this first one, as you said a lot, but still basically the same things others have.
1st)high end pvp IS NOT the majority of PvP. Already been explained.
2nd)if you're going to regard MY RESPONSES TO OTHERS' SNIDE REMARKS, it denotes your bias, narrow mindedness on the topic. Where's your complaint on velynna's "I think we're wasting our breath on these two" snide, sarcastic remark?... I thought so.
3rd)if an 11k CW is getting picked in CN over a BiS 16k ranger because he's faster at clearing dungeons, is this ALSO not balance issues?( and believe me, my 14k DC getting kicked(while doing more than fine in healing/debuffing)so an 11k CW can clear it faster is bs, is it not?
4th)if you seriously think I think that, YOU not only need reading glasses, but YOU are the one in need of help(told you people I'd have to repeat myself, people just DO NOT read).
5th)problem is, you do. The OP'er was complaining that fighters have superior DR/HP/HP. That is in essence what makes them tankier. And others agreed with him. I'll chalk that up to your lack of reading as well.
YOU are mistaken. I already agreed on making their damage like it was in the past. Do you remember 1 hit ice knife age... I do(another ill chalk up to not reading).
The CW is best when LEFT ALONE(can't believe I have to explain this... Again. Sigh...). You people are(9 out of 10 times) the same people spamming "we have to 3v1 this guy". So, what are 2 members of the team with the 1 doing? Where is the "tanking" here if those teammates don't use those opportunities? And you people are too situated in 1v1 gameplay, when it's TEAM gameplay. Seriously, why aren't the tanks keeping the enemy in check? That's not a class issue, that's a team tactic issue. My best games as a CW are with GFs/GWFs who understand this. Not my fault high end pvp guilds don't seem to follow that 1, easy to explain, simple tactic.
The reason a lot of people use the highend PVP examples is because it limits the variable of skill and gear.
I haven't been in your matches but who knows, maybe you were just outgeared and outskilled.
In twitch streams between top pvp guild premades, you could clearly see everyone has a legendary artifact, everyone has an emblem, everyone has BIS gear, everyone has rank 10s, everyone has a strong team, everyone has been PVPing at a high level for weeks to months, everyone is on raidcall coordinating their tactics.
In those matches where team tactics and class imbalance are the big variables, CW is a big big liability.
You are right, good CWs do exist, but they exist due to bad and undergeared players. They thrive on bad and undergeared players.
So you make a valid argument about "elitist PVPers" complaining about their own experiences, but isn't their matches a better indication of the underlying class imbalance (IE: not easily seen in PUG pvp matches, or affected by other variables in PUG pvp matches) in this game since it takes away 2 important variables namely player skill and gear?
Thank you, now there's at least 4 people speaking reasonably about the issue here.
As I stated before, high end pvp IS NOT the majority of pvp. I explained that class imbalance is shown more specifically, I agree on that. But is it also possible that, even in high end pvp, sometimes, SOMETIMES you ALSO got outgeared/outskilled too? On my 14k PvP CW, I'd beat a 15k GWF and he'd call me "a lucky ****". I'd repeat the process, then he'd party and inspect my gear afterward. He called me a cheater, so all I had to do was explain that he left himself open at points, and I took advantage of his prone spamming, and kited him until his unstoppable ran out. He thanked me, and later pm'ed me compliments about the whole thing.
Message is, it's not always about gear, OPness, and such. Tactics and skill work too. My question is this: if these proclaimed pvp guilds, who do high end pvp all the time, where are the high end pvp tactics? Where is the team play? If they're so gosh darn great at pvp, why are they always running across 1v1 situations in 5v5 and 20v20 fights(seriously, according to these guys, they never fight as a team)? Granted, I know 1v1 happens at times, but seriously?
yeah we kinda suck in pvp right. and have awful control. im sorry but this games devs are the most out of touch i have ever seen and the most lazy in terms of pvp hot fixes/balance. its stunning. its almost so bad that its impressive. the difference in my GWF and my Cw in pvp is mind boggling. to the ponit you wonder if the devs ever play/test. really poor. was hoping mod 3 would fix stuff but nope. ah well time for another 3 months break and hope something happens then.