What happens in high end PvP shows how the classes are balanced when everyone plays the character correctly and all that is left is the math. It is the closest we can get to a true representation of how the classes perform in both 1v1 and team situations.
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iloveforpvp is absolutely right willie, if you think control wizards are good where they are at in BiS premades then you are unaware of how this game works currently. If your team takes a cw and the other doesnt have one, then you are at a massive disadvantage going into the match, the only class a cw doesnt die to (BiS player that is) is a cleric and if you are a pvp cw... have fun trying to kill someone like requiem you will sit there for a half hour and will end up breaking your keyboard. the only thing a cw is good for is intercepting players between nodes, and even then a gwf can just run away in unstoppable (or just stomp you), a tr can just itc and stealth away ( or just stomp you in stealth and use PoB not to mention shocking exeuction hits 20ks from full health) and a hr can just turn around constricting you and fox shift you and pretty much kill a max geared pvp cw in 1 rotation.
Control Wizards have pretty much lost their ability to CC in pvp. which is pretty much the entirety of the class. its so much harder to land a shard of endless avalanche because the stun from an entangle or icy rays is so little now, a tr can break out of all CC and hide, and only reappear when in duelist flurry which breaks the stun from icy rays into ITC back into stealth. a gwf has threatening rush which also breaks them out of the stun on icy rays and pretty much acts like a dodge that crits for 2-3ks on cws. and no matter how many times a cw can dodge away, you cant escape a gwf... i should be able to icy rays dodge away mount up and run away from a gwf, but by the time i icy rays and dodge he is already back on me.
so if you say cws are fine where they are at in top tier pvp, please just uninstall because you are woefully ignorant. there needs to be many quality of life improvements for a cw such as
-- shard no longer disappearing
-- no longer being able to break out of icy rays using duelist flurry or threatening rush
--fixing armor penetration and mabey even given an base of an additional 10% armor pen or something to counteract gwfs with 45% dr and 40% deflect
--decreasing the cast time of some skills such as shard, chillstrike or entangling force. ( i think its lame that the HR daily interrupting shot or whatever it is can interrupt faster then a chillstrike already in mid cast
or instead of decreasing cast times, make us viable against a HR by increasing some of their cast times, and making the first constricting roots proc after a second, and not immediatly
Don't waste my time.
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Here's a list of why we lose Let's take the most OP class and compare!
1- we have max 24% ArP on some abilities and 0% on others.
**GwFs have 35-37% Arp on all attacks
2- I have 38k HP
**GwFs have 38-42k HP
3- I have 1550 Regen
**GwFs have 1600+ Regen
4- I have 29% DR
**GwFs have ~50% DR
5- I have 1 prone that can be taken away
**GwFs have 2 that cannot
6- I have no encounter of tab ability for CC Resist
**GwFs have Unstoppable
7- I have 10% Deflect
**GwFs have 30-40% Deflect
8- I can die before I find a semi perma
**Not a chance
9- Most I have Crit for on a BiS Senti = 4-5k
**Max they hit me for = 10-15k
I understand that it is not all about math.. But at a certain point I have to outplay a GWF 10 times over to even have a chance at winning =/
Now I know someone is bound to say "it's not a 1v1 class. You roaming with another class destroys people! It does. But it has nothing to do with CWs and everything to do with prones. 2 of anything with prones destroys people =/
So why take us? Which party would you rather fight?
1- GWF, DC, GF, CW, TR
2- 2 GWF, HR, DC, TR
When we look at it this way we can clearly see what is OP and what is UP =/ it's a shame, but it's the truth.
CWs also do not have a stat for Resisted Damage (STR for HRs, CON for GWFs).
The core of the issue is that we are outdamaged, out controlled, and out survived by ever other option. It's not that we are absolute HAMSTER, but I challenge any CW on this forum to beat a BiS, well played HR... It won't happen =/ we have been held back A LOT by PVE and this latest tenacity patch did it in for us.
I think someone already said it, CC Resist and Crit supression pretty much ruins everything we can do to people. I know a lot of CWs are doing fine, and that is because you are playing against people who are terrible. When the toons are built with the best gear and played the best way, we fall way behind.
but I challenge any CW on this forum to beat a BiS, well played HR... It won't happen =/ we have been held back A LOT by PVE and this latest tenacity patch did it in for us.
That already happened in another thread wherein a TR "claimed" in his video that he was able to use his CW effectively in PVP while ignoring that his guildmate Jerkface (who is an even better TR, one of the very best PVP ones) was carrying that premade team.
I already issued that challenge and nobody was able to respond
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The core of the issue is that we are outdamaged, out controlled, and out survived by ever other option. It's not that we are absolute HAMSTER, but I challenge any CW on this forum to beat a BiS, well played HR... It won't happen =/ we have been held back A LOT by PVE and this latest tenacity patch did it in for us.
I think someone already said it, CC Resist and Crit supression pretty much ruins everything we can do to people. I know a lot of CWs are doing fine, and that is because you are playing against people who are terrible. When the toons are built with the best gear and played the best way, we fall way behind.
The irony is Tenacity was supposed to help the squishier classes survive more. Sadly, it took away CC and Burst, the two strengths of the CW.
I still run my CW in GG, but not often in Domination. I sure hope they make some changes soon. I loved playing that class.
Good posts by iliveforpvp (great comparison with GWF), trace and adamy.
Many others here seem to be content that the majority of average CWs can do well in average games with average opponents, that don't understand to focus them.
PvP should be balanced from the top down. What happens below the premade level is not important to be honest, because BiS is what everybody in the game is striving for and looking forward to achieve.
Good posts by iliveforpvp (great comparison with GWF), trace and adamy.
Many others here seem to be content that the majority of average CWs can do well in average games with average opponents, that don't understand to focus them.
PvP should be balanced from the top down. What happens below the premade level is not important to be honest, because BiS is what everybody in the game is striving for and looking forward to achieve.
Thanks Prone and I completely agree. What bothers me is how much misinformation is out there. If I was a brand new player, I would see no harm in rolling a CW, just to end up BiS and realize that it is pathetic compared to the other classes. It is time that we all stand by what we think to protect new players from bad info.
Here you go kiddos: Math is important. The CW is inferior in a lot of mathematical ways. The CW loses in PvP.
Hopfully this will get fixed but until then, It's GwF time
The irony is Tenacity was supposed to help the squishier classes survive more. Sadly, it took away CC and Burst, the two strengths of the CW.
I still run my CW in GG, but not often in Domination. I sure hope they make some changes soon. I loved playing that class.
What it did was make HRs tanks, GwF even tankier, DCs able to stay up dispite healing depression, and made the squishy class even more squishy by comparision lol
What it did was make HRs tanks, GwF even tankier, DCs able to stay up dispite healing depression, and made the squishy class even more squishy by comparision lol
See guys sad thing about this game is that I meet ppl with bis gear everyday in domination and what they do? They miss 1/2 of their encounters....
Good posts by iliveforpvp (great comparison with GWF), trace and adamy.
Many others here seem to be content that the majority of average CWs can do well in average games with average opponents, that don't understand to focus them.
PvP should be balanced from the top down. What happens below the premade level is not important to be honest, because BiS is what everybody in the game is striving for and looking forward to achieve.
now tell me and plz be honest how many premades you do per day.
by premades i mean aranged ones with bis people on both sides.
DC Heal
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA that is a joke with Healing Depression and Righteousness our heals SUCK. Couple that with the fact we can't kill anyone 1v1 ya we the Red Headed Step Child right now.
now tell me and plz be honest how many premades you do per day.
by premades i mean aranged ones with bis people on both sides.
The point is that iliveforpvp and the others that have posted about CW issues are some of the most experienced CWs/players in this game. They know what they're talking about.
If you have a team with a CW and you're against a team without a CW, your team has to work harder for the win. It comes down to the fact that a CW is easily focused and killed. Once that CW is dead, that leaves the point cleared or another individual 1v2. That's not a good scenario.
Again, it's not that CWs are completely useless. However, having one of your team means that your teammates have to be that much better than the opponents to provide the appropriate support a CW needs in order to be effective. It's not impossible, but it does suggest that things like fixing the disappearance of shard and applying armor pen to their skills would be a good starting point for making them more viable in PvP.
If you think CWs are fine in PvP, you probably haven't learned to focus them with your team.
now tell me and plz be honest how many premades you do per day.
by premades i mean aranged ones with bis people on both sides.
It doesn't work like this.
Rank 10s and legendaries are expensive. Few afford them. That doesn't mean that there aren't good players around with Rank 8s and so on. So only 2-3 guilds in the whole game can put together full PvP premades with BiS people.
Also arranged premades took a hit since ELO introduction.
However.
If you queue a full party of 5 good PvP players, you will usually get another premade. These days, such matches can end up very competitive 2 hours long games.
Also arranged games are rather hard to put assemble at top level, because people want equivalent comps, and guilds don't always have a great player in a certain class (like, we have 5 amazing GWFs, but our CWs are... average), so they just avoid it. Most guilds also avoid going against people that they know to be very good PvPers, and you have to catch them by queue sniping, cause there's no other way.
Now that I said these, I still think PvP should be balanced from the top down. The very best players in the game should be what the developers are looking to.
Why?
Because being acknowledge as a great player is a guarantee that you have a good build, that you have the gear and that you understand Domination, because you played it for months at highest level.
Pug PvP is not important. There people try to kill permas 5vs1, run all to home base at start, never back-cap, it's just chaos and mostly clueless people.
People like these can actually have destructive opinions on PvP, because of their lack of knowledge and comprehension.
The point is that iliveforpvp and the others that have posted about CW issues are some of the most experienced CWs/players in this game. They know what they're talking about.
If you have a team with a CW and you're against a team without a CW, your team has to work harder for the win. It comes down to the fact that a CW is easily focused and killed. Once that CW is dead, that leaves the point cleared or another individual 1v2. That's not a good scenario.
Again, it's not that CWs are completely useless. However, having one of your team means that your teammates have to be that much better than the opponents to provide the appropriate support a CW needs in order to be effective. It's not impossible, but it does suggest that things like fixing the disappearance of shard and applying armor pen to their skills would be a good starting point for making them more viable in PvP.
If you think CWs are fine in PvP, you probably haven't learned to focus them with your team.
Yeah but it's dumb to focus a GWF, semi-perma TR or tanky HR/DC/GF that goes down in triple the time a CW does
so basically what we have here is people who are upset at the order of the focus. Exactly which ability are cw's asking to change that would stop them from being focused? I see them asking for more dps and better control. wouldn't that make them even more of a target for getting focused? What is going to change, that will allow them to survive being focused for more than a couple extra seconds.
Everyone gets focused in a game with good players. Eventually.
Rank 10s and legendaries are expensive. Few afford them. That doesn't mean that there aren't good players around with Rank 8s and so on. So only 2-3 guilds in the whole game can put together full PvP premades with BiS people.
Also arranged premades took a hit since ELO introduction.
However.
If you queue a full party of 5 good PvP players, you will usually get another premade. These days, such matches can end up very competitive 2 hours long games.
Also arranged games are rather hard to put assemble at top level, because people want equivalent comps, and guilds don't always have a great player in a certain class (like, we have 5 amazing GWFs, but our CWs are... average), so they just avoid it. Most guilds also avoid going against people that they know to be very good PvPers, and you have to catch them by queue sniping, cause there's no other way.
Now that I said these, I still think PvP should be balanced from the top down. The very best players in the game should be what the developers are looking to.
Why?
Because being acknowledge as a great player is a guarantee that you have a good build, that you have the gear and that you understand Domination, because you played it for months at highest level.
Pug PvP is not important. There people try to kill permas 5vs1, run all to home base at start, never back-cap, it's just chaos and mostly clueless people.
People like these can actually have destructive opinions on PvP, because of their lack of knowledge and comprehension.
this is a f2p game and should be balanced as that.not balanced on bis rank 10 pvp that never happens.
which means that all classes must be viable in pvp and pve.
The point is that iliveforpvp and the others that have posted about CW issues are some of the most experienced CWs/players in this game. They know what they're talking about.
If you have a team with a CW and you're against a team without a CW, your team has to work harder for the win. It comes down to the fact that a CW is easily focused and killed. Once that CW is dead, that leaves the point cleared or another individual 1v2. That's not a good scenario.
Again, it's not that CWs are completely useless. However, having one of your team means that your teammates have to be that much better than the opponents to provide the appropriate support a CW needs in order to be effective. It's not impossible, but it does suggest that things like fixing the disappearance of shard and applying armor pen to their skills would be a good starting point for making them more viable in PvP.
If you think CWs are fine in PvP, you probably haven't learned to focus them with your team.
cw is not fine in pvp but has place in the game and its a fun class.u can farm way easyer then the rest and have way more ad.so use that ad make another class.
i wanted to top charst in pve as tr and one shot people in pvp .i cant lol i cant even find a party when i want for anything i want.
well u will say its the dungeons fault to many mobs well i say its the pvp design that has to many 1v1 situations.
iloveforpvp is absolutely right willie, if you think control wizards are good where they are at in BiS premades then you are unaware of how this game works currently. If your team takes a cw and the other doesnt have one, then you are at a massive disadvantage going into the match, the only class a cw doesnt die to (BiS player that is) is a cleric and if you are a pvp cw... have fun trying to kill someone like requiem you will sit there for a half hour and will end up breaking your keyboard. the only thing a cw is good for is intercepting players between nodes, and even then a gwf can just run away in unstoppable (or just stomp you), a tr can just itc and stealth away ( or just stomp you in stealth and use PoB not to mention shocking exeuction hits 20ks from full health) and a hr can just turn around constricting you and fox shift you and pretty much kill a max geared pvp cw in 1 rotation.
Control Wizards have pretty much lost their ability to CC in pvp. which is pretty much the entirety of the class. its so much harder to land a shard of endless avalanche because the stun from an entangle or icy rays is so little now, a tr can break out of all CC and hide, and only reappear when in duelist flurry which breaks the stun from icy rays into ITC back into stealth. a gwf has threatening rush which also breaks them out of the stun on icy rays and pretty much acts like a dodge that crits for 2-3ks on cws. and no matter how many times a cw can dodge away, you cant escape a gwf... i should be able to icy rays dodge away mount up and run away from a gwf, but by the time i icy rays and dodge he is already back on me.
so if you say cws are fine where they are at in top tier pvp, please just uninstall because you are woefully ignorant. there needs to be many quality of life improvements for a cw such as
-- shard no longer disappearing
-- no longer being able to break out of icy rays using duelist flurry or threatening rush
--fixing armor penetration and mabey even given an base of an additional 10% armor pen or something to counteract gwfs with 45% dr and 40% deflect
--decreasing the cast time of some skills such as shard, chillstrike or entangling force. ( i think its lame that the HR daily interrupting shot or whatever it is can interrupt faster then a chillstrike already in mid cast
or instead of decreasing cast times, make us viable against a HR by increasing some of their cast times, and making the first constricting roots proc after a second, and not immediatly
I take it you did not read ANY of the posts at all? You are the one who's ignorant, as I have stated MANY times that they aren't at the top of pvp, YOU need to uninstall your game for not reading before starting your "jump on the bandwagon" posts.
1)Never said they are in top tier pvp(first evidence that you haven't looked at these posts at all)
2)your statement of "increase HR cast times" was ignorant, and obviously belies the fact that you have never played an HR in the first place. The HR has the 2nd longest cooldown rate of their abilities, and their only saving grace is switching between their stances(range/melee), so they can make use of their other abilities while their on cooldown. You increase their cast time, and you might as well wait to respawn. And I see youre still whining about CA, even though that was "fixed" for your benefit. You just want to make sure your abilities work and cant be cancelled, is all.
3)My pvp experience comes from the fact that I play AVERAGE, RANDOM, MOSTLY PUG, pvp with ALL my classes. yep. Ive played pvp with EVERY class. What has iliveforpvp done? hes played ONLY HIGH END, PREMADE VERSUS PUGSTOMPING PVP. he hasn't played the trenches like the average soldier, hes played sitting up in the command bunker. He doesn't know how average pvp works, as do you it seems.
Once again and for the final time, I know CWs aren't up there in pvp(I do know someone else will come on later and say I didn't say this, you people DO NOT read at all it seems). But I do also know that the class that has more to offer in team play is constantly knocked because IT CANT FACETANK MELEE FIGHTERS. Wow, a cloth, fragile, mage class cant tank? You make wizards able to now tank, and nobody else will need any other class for pve AND pvp. Man, I wish my conqueror gf can pull mass mob cc and kill, and become the most wanted pve class.
So if you say cws are weak, please uninstall because YOU are woefully ignorant. There needs to be many of quality of life improvements for the other classes such as:
--Ability to mass cc
--Throw down plenty burst damage and debuffing while they cc
--be able for constant, low cooldown mass cc AND single target control
--give other classes control bonus and resistances, seeing as you want to basically make a cw hit HARDER than a truck, AND TANK HARDER THAN TANKS
--decrease all the other classes STILL bad cooldown rates to put in line with CWs. Seriously, anyone who thinks CWs have the worst cooldown rates on their abilities(shard being only bad one atm), haven't really looked at the difference between their cooldown rates, and other classes cooldown rates.(HR's disruptive shot is a weak damaging daily, so of course its got a low cooldown).
For the final time, I do believe CWs deserve a little buff in pvp. I actually did prefer the ice knife bursting damage cw age. But you people want him buffed so much, that he ends up being top tier in pvp. Will anyone want anything else? Will anyone want a GF when they learn that a cw can control them, and now tank them as well? will TRs not stay perma if even a CW now lasts so long that they end up losing stealth, due to them tanking? Will anyone want an HR when their 2 saving graces against CWs(higher ranged damage, and 2(one being a daily) disrupting abilities) doesn't matter, cuz they can tank? Will a DC be even necessary, when one of their saving graces was affording characters defense. "who needs defense anymore, even a cw can facetank everything, thanks whiners!".
The problem with complaints like you guys, is that it creates even more imbalance. You want this character buffed, not knowing how your "balance" ends up putting this guy on a pedestal(I do remember a point when GWFs weren't so great... what happened now?), or you want the nerfbat to nerf a class to the ground(I also remember a point when TRs didn't have to be permastealth, even before tenacity pvp, I remember lashing blade not being a 1 shot anymore).
PVP is not balanced right now, you guys would have to be ignorant to not see it. But as far as classes, yes some will be better for our current makeup(GWF,TR,HR) and others not (DC,CW,GF). Heres the thing: theres already imbalance in pve, do we really need the class that rules pve to be top tier in pvp?
You guys want action without looking at consequences...
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
this is a f2p game and should be balanced as that.not balanced on bis rank 10 pvp that never happens.
which means that all classes must be viable in pvp and pve.
Thank you. Maybe I explain too much for people to understand it seems, but in past threads I have said almost THIS EXACT THING. People do not read at all.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
DC Heal
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA that is a joke with Healing Depression and Righteousness our heals SUCK. Couple that with the fact we can't kill anyone 1v1 ya we the Red Headed Step Child right now.
I feel for you irked01, I really do. DCs healing got so nerfed that all DCs are good for now are buff/debuffing. Point ive been driving is who will even want a DC anymore, if CWs get high damage AND tanking, seeing as they already debuff better already?
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
The point is that iliveforpvp and the others that have posted about CW issues are some of the most experienced CWs/players in this game. They know what they're talking about.
If you have a team with a CW and you're against a team without a CW, your team has to work harder for the win. It comes down to the fact that a CW is easily focused and killed. Once that CW is dead, that leaves the point cleared or another individual 1v2. That's not a good scenario.
Again, it's not that CWs are completely useless. However, having one of your team means that your teammates have to be that much better than the opponents to provide the appropriate support a CW needs in order to be effective. It's not impossible, but it does suggest that things like fixing the disappearance of shard and applying armor pen to their skills would be a good starting point for making them more viable in PvP.
If you think CWs are fine in PvP, you probably haven't learned to focus them with your team.
Heres whats wrong with your statement... The team WITHOUT a CW has to work harder for the win. Of course the CW will be targeted, anyone would have to be stupid to leave a CW, especially if you don't have one, alone on the field. Its even funnier, because players like iliveforpvp say they rock high end pvp and premades all the time. If they are, shouldn't they know to have that coordinated defense and offense? That makes it a team issue, not a class one(in that case).
If you think CWs cant be fine or useful in PvP, you probably haven't learned to focus them with your team.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
My point is this: you guys are ONLY and ONLY looking at the CW in 1v1 situations, in 5v5 and 20v20 pvp. They are a support class, I do not care what anyone says. Yes, the damage and control decrease sucks for them right now, as it also does for every class. But tankiness should never have been an issue in the first place. And on top of that, this game is more pve than pvp. You want to elevate the CW to godhood, when theyre already there in pve? Do you realize the issues with that statement at all?
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
My point is this: you guys are ONLY and ONLY looking at the CW in 1v1 situations, in 5v5 and 20v20 pvp. They are a support class, I do not care what anyone says. Yes, the damage and control decrease sucks for them right now, as it also does for every class. But tankiness should never have been an issue in the first place. And on top of that, this game is more pve than pvp. You want to elevate the CW to godhood, when theyre already there in pve? Do you realize the issues with that statement at all?
1. Yes CW is a support class ideally, except in 5v5 scenarios with 3 nodes, being able to 1v1 other players is a must. Watch twitch streams between top pvp guilds duking it out. Everyone is so tanky, except the CW. It is so easy to concentrate and harass the CW and kill it, leaving a 2v1 scenario on the node.
On the otherhand, if the CW sees 1 single GWF or TR (90% of toons) on a node, might as well let them be and go into another node.
I'm not necessarily asking to buff CW (even though they desperately need one in PVP), I'm saying either that or change the PVP dynamics to allow support classes to have more of an impact.
2. PVE issues should not compensate PVP issues. This is not a valid argument.
1. Yes CW is a support class ideally, except in 5v5 scenarios with 3 nodes, being able to 1v1 other players is a must. Watch twitch streams between top pvp guilds duking it out. Everyone is so tanky, except the CW. It is so easy to concentrate and harass the CW and kill it, leaving a 2v1 scenario on the node.
On the otherhand, if the CW sees 1 single GWF or TR (90% of toons) on a node, might as well let them be and go into another node.
I'm not necessarily asking to buff CW (even though they desperately need one in PVP), I'm saying either that or change the PVP dynamics to allow support classes to have more of an impact.
2. PVE issues should not compensate PVP issues. This is not a valid argument.
My issue with that is in WHAT they should buff. People want CWs to facetank GWFs and GFs. What MMO has ever made this so?
1)once again, ill state this: WHO WOULD WANT TO PLAY ANY OTHER CLASS IN THIS GAME WHEN THE LEAST TOUGH CLASS WHO IS UNCONTESTED IN CROWD CONTROL AND AOE DAMAGE CAN NOW TANK MORE THAN TANKY CLASSES?
People are crying to buff their damage AND give them tankiness. The OP posted complaints as to why their def/regen/hp is inferior to melees... I'll give you a hint: FIGHTERS DECKED OUT IN METAL ARMOR SHOULD BE TANKIER THAN CLOTH WEARING MAGES!!!
2)I brought up the pve issue, because this game was created with pve in mind, with pvp as an afterthought. Imbalancing one further imbalances the other further. Make the cw a pvp god(or even high up in tier), and why would anyone want anything else? Seriously, who needs anything but a cw in pve activity?(when was the last time you heard the words "we don't want cw's, they'd hinder our clearing speed"?).
3)Once again, not saying they don't deserve love in pvp. Bring their burst damage back, and improve their cc. But not back in the day when every class fell to their permacontrol.
I rolled a cw ages ago to try. He was a 1 hitting god in pvp(built to crit, built for damage more than control, ice knife was my friend), and my only class people wanted for dungeons(except my DC, but not as nearly wanted as cw). Would I really want to play with anything else when my glass cannon hits like a truck, immobilizes enemies til they respawn, AND now shrugs off swords like they're pinpricks?
Am I the only one seeing the fallacy of that proposal?
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
By the way, what top level pvp'ers let their squishies get targeted? In a team dynamic, the melees keep the enemy from their squishy classes, or do people forget to strategize? That's a team issue more than a class one(can't believe I have to repeat this)... Facepalm.
I hear "learn to play" all the time, but it seems to me that it should be defined as "my class is balanced, except when others beat it, then THAT class is OP"...
By the way, what top level pvp'ers let their squishies get targeted? In a team dynamic, the melees keep the enemy from their squishy classes, or do people forget to strategize? That's a team issue more than a class one(can't believe I have to repeat this)... Facepalm.
pretty much this. very few gwf's/guardians actively defend the ranged dps from melee. it's rare, but they do top the kill charts in pugs if they can be protected enough.
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
My issue with that is in WHAT they should buff. People want CWs to facetank GWFs and GFs. What MMO has ever made this so?
I rolled a cw ages ago to try. He was a 1 hitting god in pvp(built to crit, built for damage more than control, ice knife was my friend), and my only class people wanted for dungeons(except my DC, but not as nearly wanted as cw). Would I really want to play with anything else when my glass cannon hits like a truck, immobilizes enemies til they respawn, AND now shrugs off swords like they're pinpricks?
Am I the only one seeing the fallacy of that proposal?
Have you played your CW recently? It's a completely different situation now. No to little burst, GWF/GF/HR have more effective CC.
I never saw anybody in this topic actually asking for CWs to be able to facetank GWFs or TRs. Anybody seen such a post?
If CWs are to survive such encounters 1vs1, they should win one by kiting and outsmarting. How do you kite? WITH Crowd Control. What are CWs supposed to be best class in game at? Crowd Control.
Is the CW best CC class in PvP?
No, by far. HRs, GF and GWFs have better CC than the Control class.
I think this is the issue.
Also, the squishy classes in other MMOs have lots of burst to compensate for them dying easily. Now, the CW class still has a bit of burst, but overall it has been neutered by:
- bad PvP gear. No more High Vizier debuffs from us in PvP. No more regen on the +HP gear we should wear, so even the rings and belt and amulet would need to be defensive, with HP and Regeneration.
- Tenacity. This helps us too. But our burst was still made much worse by this stat. CWs had isues with tanky, geared toons before. Now they have Tenacity as well.
So I'd say CW class issues are:
- inefficient, second class CC, even if fully specced for it
- less burst than we used to have
- not enough survivability to compensate for the above weaknesses
Being focused first is a symptom of people recognizing CWs die fastest. This should NOT be the case. Focusing order should be determined not by class, but by player, such as "that X class doesn't dodge too well and seems a bit undergeared. We focus it first".
Comments
iloveforpvp is absolutely right willie, if you think control wizards are good where they are at in BiS premades then you are unaware of how this game works currently. If your team takes a cw and the other doesnt have one, then you are at a massive disadvantage going into the match, the only class a cw doesnt die to (BiS player that is) is a cleric and if you are a pvp cw... have fun trying to kill someone like requiem you will sit there for a half hour and will end up breaking your keyboard. the only thing a cw is good for is intercepting players between nodes, and even then a gwf can just run away in unstoppable (or just stomp you), a tr can just itc and stealth away ( or just stomp you in stealth and use PoB not to mention shocking exeuction hits 20ks from full health) and a hr can just turn around constricting you and fox shift you and pretty much kill a max geared pvp cw in 1 rotation.
Control Wizards have pretty much lost their ability to CC in pvp. which is pretty much the entirety of the class. its so much harder to land a shard of endless avalanche because the stun from an entangle or icy rays is so little now, a tr can break out of all CC and hide, and only reappear when in duelist flurry which breaks the stun from icy rays into ITC back into stealth. a gwf has threatening rush which also breaks them out of the stun on icy rays and pretty much acts like a dodge that crits for 2-3ks on cws. and no matter how many times a cw can dodge away, you cant escape a gwf... i should be able to icy rays dodge away mount up and run away from a gwf, but by the time i icy rays and dodge he is already back on me.
so if you say cws are fine where they are at in top tier pvp, please just uninstall because you are woefully ignorant. there needs to be many quality of life improvements for a cw such as
-- shard no longer disappearing
-- no longer being able to break out of icy rays using duelist flurry or threatening rush
--fixing armor penetration and mabey even given an base of an additional 10% armor pen or something to counteract gwfs with 45% dr and 40% deflect
--decreasing the cast time of some skills such as shard, chillstrike or entangling force. ( i think its lame that the HR daily interrupting shot or whatever it is can interrupt faster then a chillstrike already in mid cast
or instead of decreasing cast times, make us viable against a HR by increasing some of their cast times, and making the first constricting roots proc after a second, and not immediatly
CWs also do not have a stat for Resisted Damage (STR for HRs, CON for GWFs).
That would also help immensely.
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I think someone already said it, CC Resist and Crit supression pretty much ruins everything we can do to people. I know a lot of CWs are doing fine, and that is because you are playing against people who are terrible. When the toons are built with the best gear and played the best way, we fall way behind.
That already happened in another thread wherein a TR "claimed" in his video that he was able to use his CW effectively in PVP while ignoring that his guildmate Jerkface (who is an even better TR, one of the very best PVP ones) was carrying that premade team.
I already issued that challenge and nobody was able to respond
The irony is Tenacity was supposed to help the squishier classes survive more. Sadly, it took away CC and Burst, the two strengths of the CW.
I still run my CW in GG, but not often in Domination. I sure hope they make some changes soon. I loved playing that class.
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Many others here seem to be content that the majority of average CWs can do well in average games with average opponents, that don't understand to focus them.
PvP should be balanced from the top down. What happens below the premade level is not important to be honest, because BiS is what everybody in the game is striving for and looking forward to achieve.
Thanks Prone and I completely agree. What bothers me is how much misinformation is out there. If I was a brand new player, I would see no harm in rolling a CW, just to end up BiS and realize that it is pathetic compared to the other classes. It is time that we all stand by what we think to protect new players from bad info.
Here you go kiddos: Math is important. The CW is inferior in a lot of mathematical ways. The CW loses in PvP.
Hopfully this will get fixed but until then, It's GwF time
What it did was make HRs tanks, GwF even tankier, DCs able to stay up dispite healing depression, and made the squishy class even more squishy by comparision lol
See guys sad thing about this game is that I meet ppl with bis gear everyday in domination and what they do? They miss 1/2 of their encounters....
now tell me and plz be honest how many premades you do per day.
by premades i mean aranged ones with bis people on both sides.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA that is a joke with Healing Depression and Righteousness our heals SUCK. Couple that with the fact we can't kill anyone 1v1 ya we the Red Headed Step Child right now.
The point is that iliveforpvp and the others that have posted about CW issues are some of the most experienced CWs/players in this game. They know what they're talking about.
If you have a team with a CW and you're against a team without a CW, your team has to work harder for the win. It comes down to the fact that a CW is easily focused and killed. Once that CW is dead, that leaves the point cleared or another individual 1v2. That's not a good scenario.
Again, it's not that CWs are completely useless. However, having one of your team means that your teammates have to be that much better than the opponents to provide the appropriate support a CW needs in order to be effective. It's not impossible, but it does suggest that things like fixing the disappearance of shard and applying armor pen to their skills would be a good starting point for making them more viable in PvP.
If you think CWs are fine in PvP, you probably haven't learned to focus them with your team.
It doesn't work like this.
Rank 10s and legendaries are expensive. Few afford them. That doesn't mean that there aren't good players around with Rank 8s and so on. So only 2-3 guilds in the whole game can put together full PvP premades with BiS people.
Also arranged premades took a hit since ELO introduction.
However.
If you queue a full party of 5 good PvP players, you will usually get another premade. These days, such matches can end up very competitive 2 hours long games.
Also arranged games are rather hard to put assemble at top level, because people want equivalent comps, and guilds don't always have a great player in a certain class (like, we have 5 amazing GWFs, but our CWs are... average), so they just avoid it. Most guilds also avoid going against people that they know to be very good PvPers, and you have to catch them by queue sniping, cause there's no other way.
Now that I said these, I still think PvP should be balanced from the top down. The very best players in the game should be what the developers are looking to.
Why?
Because being acknowledge as a great player is a guarantee that you have a good build, that you have the gear and that you understand Domination, because you played it for months at highest level.
Pug PvP is not important. There people try to kill permas 5vs1, run all to home base at start, never back-cap, it's just chaos and mostly clueless people.
People like these can actually have destructive opinions on PvP, because of their lack of knowledge and comprehension.
Any class can be focused.
Yeah but it's dumb to focus a GWF, semi-perma TR or tanky HR/DC/GF that goes down in triple the time a CW does
so basically what we have here is people who are upset at the order of the focus. Exactly which ability are cw's asking to change that would stop them from being focused? I see them asking for more dps and better control. wouldn't that make them even more of a target for getting focused? What is going to change, that will allow them to survive being focused for more than a couple extra seconds.
Everyone gets focused in a game with good players. Eventually.
this is a f2p game and should be balanced as that.not balanced on bis rank 10 pvp that never happens.
which means that all classes must be viable in pvp and pve.
cw is not fine in pvp but has place in the game and its a fun class.u can farm way easyer then the rest and have way more ad.so use that ad make another class.
i wanted to top charst in pve as tr and one shot people in pvp .i cant lol i cant even find a party when i want for anything i want.
well u will say its the dungeons fault to many mobs well i say its the pvp design that has to many 1v1 situations.
I take it you did not read ANY of the posts at all? You are the one who's ignorant, as I have stated MANY times that they aren't at the top of pvp, YOU need to uninstall your game for not reading before starting your "jump on the bandwagon" posts.
1)Never said they are in top tier pvp(first evidence that you haven't looked at these posts at all)
2)your statement of "increase HR cast times" was ignorant, and obviously belies the fact that you have never played an HR in the first place. The HR has the 2nd longest cooldown rate of their abilities, and their only saving grace is switching between their stances(range/melee), so they can make use of their other abilities while their on cooldown. You increase their cast time, and you might as well wait to respawn. And I see youre still whining about CA, even though that was "fixed" for your benefit. You just want to make sure your abilities work and cant be cancelled, is all.
3)My pvp experience comes from the fact that I play AVERAGE, RANDOM, MOSTLY PUG, pvp with ALL my classes. yep. Ive played pvp with EVERY class. What has iliveforpvp done? hes played ONLY HIGH END, PREMADE VERSUS PUGSTOMPING PVP. he hasn't played the trenches like the average soldier, hes played sitting up in the command bunker. He doesn't know how average pvp works, as do you it seems.
Once again and for the final time, I know CWs aren't up there in pvp(I do know someone else will come on later and say I didn't say this, you people DO NOT read at all it seems). But I do also know that the class that has more to offer in team play is constantly knocked because IT CANT FACETANK MELEE FIGHTERS. Wow, a cloth, fragile, mage class cant tank? You make wizards able to now tank, and nobody else will need any other class for pve AND pvp. Man, I wish my conqueror gf can pull mass mob cc and kill, and become the most wanted pve class.
So if you say cws are weak, please uninstall because YOU are woefully ignorant. There needs to be many of quality of life improvements for the other classes such as:
--Ability to mass cc
--Throw down plenty burst damage and debuffing while they cc
--be able for constant, low cooldown mass cc AND single target control
--give other classes control bonus and resistances, seeing as you want to basically make a cw hit HARDER than a truck, AND TANK HARDER THAN TANKS
--decrease all the other classes STILL bad cooldown rates to put in line with CWs. Seriously, anyone who thinks CWs have the worst cooldown rates on their abilities(shard being only bad one atm), haven't really looked at the difference between their cooldown rates, and other classes cooldown rates.(HR's disruptive shot is a weak damaging daily, so of course its got a low cooldown).
For the final time, I do believe CWs deserve a little buff in pvp. I actually did prefer the ice knife bursting damage cw age. But you people want him buffed so much, that he ends up being top tier in pvp. Will anyone want anything else? Will anyone want a GF when they learn that a cw can control them, and now tank them as well? will TRs not stay perma if even a CW now lasts so long that they end up losing stealth, due to them tanking? Will anyone want an HR when their 2 saving graces against CWs(higher ranged damage, and 2(one being a daily) disrupting abilities) doesn't matter, cuz they can tank? Will a DC be even necessary, when one of their saving graces was affording characters defense. "who needs defense anymore, even a cw can facetank everything, thanks whiners!".
The problem with complaints like you guys, is that it creates even more imbalance. You want this character buffed, not knowing how your "balance" ends up putting this guy on a pedestal(I do remember a point when GWFs weren't so great... what happened now?), or you want the nerfbat to nerf a class to the ground(I also remember a point when TRs didn't have to be permastealth, even before tenacity pvp, I remember lashing blade not being a 1 shot anymore).
PVP is not balanced right now, you guys would have to be ignorant to not see it. But as far as classes, yes some will be better for our current makeup(GWF,TR,HR) and others not (DC,CW,GF). Heres the thing: theres already imbalance in pve, do we really need the class that rules pve to be top tier in pvp?
You guys want action without looking at consequences...
Thank you. Maybe I explain too much for people to understand it seems, but in past threads I have said almost THIS EXACT THING. People do not read at all.
I feel for you irked01, I really do. DCs healing got so nerfed that all DCs are good for now are buff/debuffing. Point ive been driving is who will even want a DC anymore, if CWs get high damage AND tanking, seeing as they already debuff better already?
Heres whats wrong with your statement... The team WITHOUT a CW has to work harder for the win. Of course the CW will be targeted, anyone would have to be stupid to leave a CW, especially if you don't have one, alone on the field. Its even funnier, because players like iliveforpvp say they rock high end pvp and premades all the time. If they are, shouldn't they know to have that coordinated defense and offense? That makes it a team issue, not a class one(in that case).
If you think CWs cant be fine or useful in PvP, you probably haven't learned to focus them with your team.
My point is this: you guys are ONLY and ONLY looking at the CW in 1v1 situations, in 5v5 and 20v20 pvp. They are a support class, I do not care what anyone says. Yes, the damage and control decrease sucks for them right now, as it also does for every class. But tankiness should never have been an issue in the first place. And on top of that, this game is more pve than pvp. You want to elevate the CW to godhood, when theyre already there in pve? Do you realize the issues with that statement at all?
1. Yes CW is a support class ideally, except in 5v5 scenarios with 3 nodes, being able to 1v1 other players is a must. Watch twitch streams between top pvp guilds duking it out. Everyone is so tanky, except the CW. It is so easy to concentrate and harass the CW and kill it, leaving a 2v1 scenario on the node.
On the otherhand, if the CW sees 1 single GWF or TR (90% of toons) on a node, might as well let them be and go into another node.
I'm not necessarily asking to buff CW (even though they desperately need one in PVP), I'm saying either that or change the PVP dynamics to allow support classes to have more of an impact.
2. PVE issues should not compensate PVP issues. This is not a valid argument.
My issue with that is in WHAT they should buff. People want CWs to facetank GWFs and GFs. What MMO has ever made this so?
1)once again, ill state this: WHO WOULD WANT TO PLAY ANY OTHER CLASS IN THIS GAME WHEN THE LEAST TOUGH CLASS WHO IS UNCONTESTED IN CROWD CONTROL AND AOE DAMAGE CAN NOW TANK MORE THAN TANKY CLASSES?
People are crying to buff their damage AND give them tankiness. The OP posted complaints as to why their def/regen/hp is inferior to melees... I'll give you a hint: FIGHTERS DECKED OUT IN METAL ARMOR SHOULD BE TANKIER THAN CLOTH WEARING MAGES!!!
2)I brought up the pve issue, because this game was created with pve in mind, with pvp as an afterthought. Imbalancing one further imbalances the other further. Make the cw a pvp god(or even high up in tier), and why would anyone want anything else? Seriously, who needs anything but a cw in pve activity?(when was the last time you heard the words "we don't want cw's, they'd hinder our clearing speed"?).
3)Once again, not saying they don't deserve love in pvp. Bring their burst damage back, and improve their cc. But not back in the day when every class fell to their permacontrol.
I rolled a cw ages ago to try. He was a 1 hitting god in pvp(built to crit, built for damage more than control, ice knife was my friend), and my only class people wanted for dungeons(except my DC, but not as nearly wanted as cw). Would I really want to play with anything else when my glass cannon hits like a truck, immobilizes enemies til they respawn, AND now shrugs off swords like they're pinpricks?
Am I the only one seeing the fallacy of that proposal?
pretty much this. very few gwf's/guardians actively defend the ranged dps from melee. it's rare, but they do top the kill charts in pugs if they can be protected enough.
Have you played your CW recently? It's a completely different situation now. No to little burst, GWF/GF/HR have more effective CC.
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If CWs are to survive such encounters 1vs1, they should win one by kiting and outsmarting. How do you kite? WITH Crowd Control. What are CWs supposed to be best class in game at? Crowd Control.
Is the CW best CC class in PvP?
No, by far. HRs, GF and GWFs have better CC than the Control class.
I think this is the issue.
Also, the squishy classes in other MMOs have lots of burst to compensate for them dying easily. Now, the CW class still has a bit of burst, but overall it has been neutered by:
- bad PvP gear. No more High Vizier debuffs from us in PvP. No more regen on the +HP gear we should wear, so even the rings and belt and amulet would need to be defensive, with HP and Regeneration.
- Tenacity. This helps us too. But our burst was still made much worse by this stat. CWs had isues with tanky, geared toons before. Now they have Tenacity as well.
So I'd say CW class issues are:
- inefficient, second class CC, even if fully specced for it
- less burst than we used to have
- not enough survivability to compensate for the above weaknesses
Being focused first is a symptom of people recognizing CWs die fastest. This should NOT be the case. Focusing order should be determined not by class, but by player, such as "that X class doesn't dodge too well and seems a bit undergeared. We focus it first".