chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited March 2014
While guild are you running in Cael? maybe i've played with some of your players, i wasn't aware of the testing. I feel like I am getting trolled a lot here.
What you are seeing there is a time delay - by the nature of using dots and debuffs vs. pure burst, MoF _does_ take a little while to kick in the damage, which is undebatable because of the very mechanic of smolder.
Now if i have a party where everyone is 17.5k+ (about R10s w/o stat pets), my team DPS is so obscenely high that nothing lives more than a few seconds, and in those situations the mobs are simply dead too fast for MoF to shine, which is simply true. This is of course why spellstorm looks better on the clear, because it's more burst, and many of the little mobs (skeletons, zombies, etc) have a lifetime of 1-2 seconds whereas MoF mechanics take a while to kick in.
This very reason is also why MoF CW perform well at draco because the whights and red wizards (and to some extent, the soldiers) live longer, and in this case debuff stacking can often provide a smoother kill than more burst.
However, while i'm not surprised with your results in that context, there are very, very few parties farming CN where the 5 man team is all 18K+ I think for the grand majority of players, a mix is the optimal composition, or say you run short man where there are only 3 of you - then a mix is probably optimal as well.
So that actually makes sense and we aren't in disagreement. Hopefully in MoD 3 the dungeon will be _much_ harder and everything won't die in two seconds
While guild are you running in Cael? maybe i've played with some of your players, i wasn't aware of the testing. I feel like I am getting trolled a lot here.
What you are seeing there is a time delay - by the nature of using dots and debuffs vs. pure burst, MoF _does_ take a little while to kick in the damage, which is undebatable because of the very mechanic of smolder.
Now if i have a party where everyone is 17.5k+ (about R10s w/o stat pets), my team DPS is so obscenely high that nothing lives more than a few seconds, and in those situations the mobs are simply dead too fast for MoF to shine, which is simply true. This is of course why spellstorm looks better on the clear, because it's more burst, and many of the little mobs (skeletons, zombies, etc) have a lifetime of 1-2 seconds whereas MoF mechanics take a while to kick in.
This very reason is also why MoF CW perform well at draco because the whights and red wizards (and to some extent, the soldiers) live longer, and in this case debuff stacking can often provide a smoother kill than more burst.
However, while i'm not surprised with your results in that context, there are very, very few parties farming CN where the 5 man team is all 18K+ I think for the grand majority of players, a mix is the optimal composition, or say you run short man where there are only 3 of you - then a mix is probably optimal as well.
So that actually makes sense and we aren't in disagreement. Hopefully in MoD 3 the dungeon will be _much_ harder and everything won't die in two seconds
Yes I think MoF would be a very viable build with some fixes, tweaks, and content that isnt steamrolled. I agree average parties can see some benefit from an MoF build. The problem really is the content...I mean in what reality is it ok to not need a tank or healer to complete end game content lol? Even with a full perfect team we should be forced to have a "tank" and healer. By endgame I mean CN/MC/VT. I mean we were easily clearing MC and VT as soon as they hit the preview shards and that just shouldnt be possible imo but it is due to the game mechanics.
Chem I do applaud you for going against the grain and making a name for yourself and pushing/optimizing the MoF build. Sorry to have somewhat sidetracked the thread.I hope PWE gives MoF a better chance by fixing the bugs, buffing the paragon and making harder content. Good luck to you
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited March 2014
Yeah man, thanks there
I agree completely, this content here is way too easy, i mean... way too easy man. We can clear CN 4 man without trying, 3 man is doable too - so why is that? I would love to have T3 dungeons.
For me, the biggest difference is playstyle. I hate playing like a selfish nukebot. I really like optimizing my team, helping them, and having smooth efficient runs. Quite honestly, if the run takes a little longer, but we stick together, have no wipes, and down draco one shot, every time, that's more valuable to me than rushing and shaving 5 minutes off my time. I want to enjoy myself while making AD.
Actually, my guild is having a small too many MoF issue - as I've said over and over a mix seems optimal, but if it's all MoF, i don't think swath stacks so it makes sense to only have one - and I switched day it comes out. I never liked Sudden Storm or OF, so I don't feel I'm missing much here.
If I ever get a better PC i'll be glad to upload more videos too. I'd really like to have a Crescendo Tube for our guild - but that's in the future.
Hi Chem just wanted to say thanks so much for the guide and going against the curve I usually run with two RL friend one a SS CW and i was the same and one a Hunter or GF he has two toons, after reading and understanding your guide i respeced to a Fire CW and wow now on MC and other runs our whole group DPS has increased and the fights go easier we could clear it pretty well any way but do it quicker now.
Ignore the trolls and SS fan boys after reading most of those criticizing you i think they just dont get the jist of your post and what you have been saying not bagging SS CW but pointing out the benefit of a Fire CW complementing a SS CW and the group ..right at the start you clearly say the game is about team play .
Any way cheers and thanks -)
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
He says it over and over team play, but not running HV I don't think he really knows what it means. HV alone will give the team more damage than MoF...
He says it over and over team play, but not running HV I don't think he really knows what it means. HV alone will give the team more damage than MoF...
They don't understand. My guess is they couldn't cope with spellstorm, always got much less damage than other mages and couldn't understand why. So once this new paragon path came out they latched on the idea how it can help the team and all of a sudden they have an excuse for being bad. I saw it happen in other games too.
This phenomenon even has a name: Dunning–Kruger effect
"The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than is accurate. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their ineptitude.[1] Actual competence may weaken self-confidence, as competent individuals may falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding."
All we need do is see the foolishness they espouse and be amused. Eventually someone with potential will hop by and see the writing on the wall and join us instead.
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uurbsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 449Bounty Hunter
They don't understand. My guess is they couldn't cope with spellstorm, always got much less damage than other mages and couldn't understand why. So once this new paragon path came out they latched on the idea how it can help the team and all of a sudden they have an excuse for being bad. I saw it happen in other games too.[...]
As you're saying "they", I consider myself included. And as I've played Spellstorm CW's in different setups since May, tested them thoroughly and used them in all available content, I do not consider myself one to "not understand Spellstorm CW's". My two CW's are still not BiS equipped (having only rank 8's), but still my Master of the Flame does nearly the same damage as my Spellstorm one. Even in comparison with very good equipped CW's.
Therefore I consider you as one "I've no clue about the CW and can only use a build that is easy to use" type of guy. So honestly, please stop trolling this thread.
Proud member of Dragon Clan - German Gaming Community
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited March 2014
What's interesting is that people are claiming that the Paragon Path does 50% less damage, yet there's actually very few mechanical differences at play.
The feats are exactly the same as your cookie cutter Thaumaturge. With that, the go to at will is still Chilling Cloud, same as a Spellstorm.
The class features are different, CC/CA versus EotS/SS. However, I believe EotS only adds an effective 10-12% to your actual crit rate. When I parsed SS in my normal build, it only equaled about 6% of total damage done. Adding smolder on crits, the extra 15% crit severity, and the rate of AP gain from CA isn't necessarily a bad trade off.
Spell-wise, I assume most Spellstorms are using Sudden Storm, but again, parsing out Sudden Storm is going to be about 25-30% of your total damage, which is a big percentage of damage that Fanning the Flame. However, Sudden Storm is a bit trickier to maximize damage with, while Fanning the Flame always hits.
But when taken in total, it's very tough to find out where the "double damage" from Spellstorm is coming from, versus MoF.
I can only imagine what happened was these guys switched to MoF, had no idea how to play the path, ran one dungeon and quickly switched back to their Spellstorm safety net.
So unless someone's going to post more than opinions, my experience doesn't jive. MoF is very much on par with Spellstorm in what it brings to the table.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
Therefore I consider you as one "I've no clue about the CW and can only use a build that is easy to use" type of guy. So honestly, please stop trolling this thread.
This is very likely it. And on top of that, none of the detractor's has posted a single shred of analytical evidence to support their claims.
Anyone can come in here and say they're the best guild in the game, with the top enchants and able to do everything better than anyone else. Hell, you don't even need to have ever played the game to make that claim.
So unless these guys can offer up something more than words, there's no reason for them to be posting here.
What's interesting is that people are claiming that the Paragon Path does 50% less damage, yet there's actually very few mechanical differences at play.
The feats are exactly the same as your cookie cutter Thaumaturge. With that, the go to at will is still Chilling Cloud, same as a Spellstorm.
The class features are different, CC/CA versus EotS/SS. However, I believe EotS only adds an effective 10-12% to your actual crit rate. When I parsed SS in my normal build, it only equaled about 6% of total damage done. Adding smolder on crits, the extra 15% crit severity, and the rate of AP gain from CA isn't necessarily a bad trade off.
Spell-wise, I assume most Spellstorms are using Sudden Storm, but again, parsing out Sudden Storm is going to be about 25-30% of your total damage, which is a big percentage of damage that Fanning the Flame. However, Sudden Storm is a bit trickier to maximize damage with, while Fanning the Flame always hits.
But when taken in total, it's very tough to find out where the "double damage" from Spellstorm is coming from, versus MoF.
I can only imagine what happened was these guys switched to MoF, had no idea how to play the path, ran one dungeon and quickly switched back to their Spellstorm safety net.
So unless someone's going to post more than opinions, my experience doesn't jive. MoF is very much on par with Spellstorm in what it brings to the table.
EotS is 20% additional crit @ 30% existing crit. Which is about 18% dps increase with p.vorpal.
If a current elite spellstorm only changes path to MoF all he will lose should be about 18% dps compensated by probably nothing close to match from the MoF passives.
Giving up either CS or SS for the crappy MoF encounter will further lessen DPS.
Giving up the HV set will be further idiocy. I can easily see losing 50% dps by stacking crit instead of power and giving up HV in addition to giving up EotS.
I can easily see losing 50% dps by stacking crit instead of power and giving up HV in addition to giving up EotS.
This may be a stupid question but, did HV originally start out as being able to stack with other HV users? And if not, when did they change it so that it now stacks? Cause if they don't stack, then there is no point in having two people with HV together in a group.
Lone CW in the party = use HV
Two CWs in the party = one switches to another (if he / she wants too)
Such a simple concept that people in this thread can't seem to grasp. LOL
I do agree with the "stacking Crit instead of Power" thingy, though the amount of lowered dps is unclear.
PS. I still don't see any combat log parses to support these "numbers" people have been posting here. Clearly, it seems like such a difficult task to gather evidence to back up ones claims. /sarcasm
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uurbsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 449Bounty Hunter
This may be a stupid question but, did HV originally start out as being able to stack with other HV users? And if not, when did they change it so that it now stacks? Cause if they don't stack, then there is no point in having two people with HV together in a group.
They don't stack anymore, but one CW will never be able to get the debuff on all MOBs, therefore I rearranged your posting, that it actually makes sense:
Up to at least two CW's in party: use HV, if more than 2 the 3rd may use other, the 4th definitely should use something else.
They don't understand. My guess is they couldn't cope with spellstorm, always got much less damage than other mages and couldn't understand why. So once this new paragon path came out they latched on the idea how it can help the team and all of a sudden they have an excuse for being bad. I saw it happen in other games too.
This phenomenon even has a name: Dunning–Kruger effect
"The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than is accurate. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their ineptitude.[1] Actual competence may weaken self-confidence, as competent individuals may falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding."
All we need do is see the foolishness they espouse and be amused. Eventually someone with potential will hop by and see the writing on the wall and join us instead.
People are idiots, don't read my post, don't get the concept. Surely you understand that there is almost always 2CWs, one running SS/HV, me running MoF/SW.
If you have nothing better to do than troll and insult me, that's fine. I'm going to go dance on draco's corpse. TYVM,
This is very likely it. And on top of that, none of the detractor's has posted a single shred of analytical evidence to support their claims.
Anyone can come in here and say they're the best guild in the game, with the top enchants and able to do everything better than anyone else. Hell, you don't even need to have ever played the game to make that claim.
So unless these guys can offer up something more than words, there's no reason for them to be posting here.
I offered up 10mil if he can come in at half my damage, I don't see that being accepted do you? I looked at his character sheet, and it's not to say MoF will do 50% less, but with his stats, his rolls, his gear choices, HE will do 50% or less. I'm not making a bet, he loses nothing and stands to gain 10mil, yet do you see him stepping up?
Look at the damage difference in output here. I looked back at some of chem's logs and the highest shard 46k, highest daily 29k, steal time 22k. Open stox's log and see shard 81k, daily 113k (yes 113k OF,) steal time 37k, hell there are chill strikes for 61k in this log. Looks like stox's comp was 2x CW, GWF, TR, DC. For some of these numbers chem had 4x CW and 1x GWF, so imagine how many more debuffs were on the mob and still look at the damage numbers. Imagine stox's numbers with 2 more CWs each adding 25% or likely more mitigation and you'll quickly see the damage difference and how huge it actually is. And note that chem's are from a sample of many runs and party comps, whereas I'm sure stox has better logs than this he could share.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited March 2014
had a long chat with Stox today - and he and i couldn't have more different builds right now. He literally dropped _all_ his defense for max offense, super glass cannon style. To think a tank CW like me and compare DPS to a glass cannon CW like him is like comparing two different classes. The thought itself is silly.
And what of all this hostility smurf? should i respec, go all offense, throw on my vorpal and say. "ooohhh look at my paingiver" or should I play how i want to play with people i want to play with and have smooth sucessful runs?
Personally i'd rather be happy than be a DPS *****. It's not like a struggling in any dimension over here.
EotS is 20% additional crit @ 30% existing crit. Which is about 18% dps increase with p.vorpal.
If a current elite spellstorm only changes path to MoF all he will lose should be about 18% dps compensated by probably nothing close to match from the MoF passives.
Giving up either CS or SS for the crappy MoF encounter will further lessen DPS.
Giving up the HV set will be further idiocy. I can easily see losing 50% dps by stacking crit instead of power and giving up HV in addition to giving up EotS.
eots is a lot more powerfull then a lot of ppl think i do not play cw but i can always do 2xtimes more dps then most mof while i know to be 10-15% worse then spellstorm so i do think main reason for so huge power gap is lack of eye on mof u cant look total avarge crtic chance when eye is almost always on for 2 the best encounter u got try to look % of your damage done by critic and u will see how powerfull eye is
so they need need to buff up mof by a lot to be worth or nerf eye on spellstorm
Look at the damage difference in output here. I looked back at some of chem's logs and the highest shard 46k, highest daily 29k, steal time 22k. Open stox's log and see shard 81k, daily 113k (yes 113k OF,) steal time 37k, hell there are chill strikes for 61k in this log. Looks like stox's comp was 2x CW, GWF, TR, DC. For some of these numbers chem had 4x CW and 1x GWF, so imagine how many more debuffs were on the mob and still look at the damage numbers. Imagine stox's numbers with 2 more CWs each adding 25% or likely more mitigation and you'll quickly see the damage difference and how huge it actually is. And note that chem's are from a sample of many runs and party comps, whereas I'm sure stox has better logs than this he could share.
It's not a competition, this is a team game and both spec excells at what its specialised in. I have done 300k iceknife when i was SS and now 20k shards as MoF, SO WHAT?! The challenge in a run is to clear a whole dungeon without dying once (already rid of soulforged enchant), and defeat the final boss for rewards. Paingiver chart says nothing but result of how well the team cooperates not your own cos you are not soloing it.
Theres absolutely no reason to argue which build is superior, it all boils down to what playstyle suits after experiment. Having been played both specs, for me the "C" part of the CW has always been my style. I believe 2 x each spec together works for the best, cos we compensate what each other lacks. SS ofc will have high burst with slightly lower survivability, MOF deals less dps but can make it up by being extremely tanky, providing utility and debuffs (Smolder + Plaguefire/Terror etc), so SS mages can focus on dishing out even more insane dmg. Thats where we shine, despite the sheer number differences.
Its just a game, have fun play the way you enjoy, I love to be supportive and boost the team DPS, sure you can do well without MOF but you will love our companionship once you grp up with us.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
Guys, do the DOT proc weapon enchantments or anything?
Also, what is the base lvl of damage for Fanning the Flame and how do it behaves on mastery? Can you give exact numbers? I just want to compare it to Sudden Storm. I think about respecing into rene MoF to see how it works.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited March 2014
I don't think the DOTs proc enchants, the reason MoF use debuff enchants is that they are better for the team than a P.Vorpal, simply because getting the 50% crit required is very difficult without EotS.
Fanning the flame damage is really nice. my sheet says 6119-7661, give you an idea of scaling ice knife 8816-10215 for me.
If fanning is part of the rotation, people in my guild are doing some testing on drifting embers - which is nice if you cast in sing, and fanning on tab is really good damage. I don't think it's quite as high as sudden storm in sing, but sudden storm is much harder to aim than fanning.
I think the major difference is playstyle. Try it out and see what you think, but so far it seems that people tend to strongly prefer one over another.
Well, I feel like my will fails and I am going to relent to the madness and create a Renegade MoF build. Already bought myself 2 respecs: one for MoF and one to revert the changes back, when I will understand that it sucks =D. hope my main party won't suffer too much (since I do the highest DPS there currently).
Just for the note: I am totally fine with my current Renegade Spellstorm, doing a lot of damage.
Can you also describe the Fanning the flame mechanics and all type of damages it does to main target and other burning targets on mastery and on basic. Also, what about Drifting Embers?
Also, will fire immediately convert to rimefire when hit by cold spell? One of our mages run cold Thaum and I am afraid it can cause problems since rimefire won't deal damage until some Icy Ground won't finish.
Another question is where there is a reason to use MoF at-will skill? People tend to say it is useless, is it really so?
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited March 2014
well, at wills are something to do between encounters used to proc buffs. Your at will does very little DPS overall, so that is normal.
Fanning the flame is complciated, and has 3 parts. I am not entirely sure how each part is calculated yet.
Drifting embers is nice if you use fanning in sing. On thaum you wouldn't put it on tab. In renegade, you can try fanning on tab. The main drawback is that fanning has much less AP gain than conduit or icy terrian, so you might need more recovery and/or use controlling action.
Smolder does change to rimfire pretty quick, but it's hard to tell in the long if this interrupts it or if the tick finishes - that said smolder is very nice damage on MoF. I wouldn't call it a problem, but it's something i hope they fix.
You can use scorching burst as a quick lifesteal, or to dot things with smolder, or maybe to open if everything is on cooldown. That said, i really only use chilling cloud PvE. Hope that helps.
Hi Chemboy! thanks for your guide.. teamwork speaks.. I've been a dps SS/thaum CW the past couple of months and decided to change into this style(kinda harsh doing high dps but less survivability due to damage concentrated stats).. Pure debuff + control = great team damage boost..
I tweaked a bit in your build(I am using GPF instead of P.Terror).
It's not a competition, this is a team game and both spec excells at what its specialised in. I have done 300k iceknife when i was SS and now 20k shards as MoF, SO WHAT?! The challenge in a run is to clear a whole dungeon without dying once (already rid of soulforged enchant), and defeat the final boss for rewards. Paingiver chart says nothing but result of how well the team cooperates not your own cos you are not soloing it.
Theres absolutely no reason to argue which build is superior, it all boils down to what playstyle suits after experiment. Having been played both specs, for me the "C" part of the CW has always been my style. I believe 2 x each spec together works for the best, cos we compensate what each other lacks. SS ofc will have high burst with slightly lower survivability, MOF deals less dps but can make it up by being extremely tanky, providing utility and debuffs (Smolder + Plaguefire/Terror etc), so SS mages can focus on dishing out even more insane dmg. Thats where we shine, despite the sheer number differences.
Its just a game, have fun play the way you enjoy, I love to be supportive and boost the team DPS, sure you can do well without MOF but you will love our companionship once you grp up with us.
Thumbs up bro
It's not a competition but a team-play.. and being the booster and debuffer of the team(main reason why adds die quickly as <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>) compliments a lot!..
Comments
What you are seeing there is a time delay - by the nature of using dots and debuffs vs. pure burst, MoF _does_ take a little while to kick in the damage, which is undebatable because of the very mechanic of smolder.
Now if i have a party where everyone is 17.5k+ (about R10s w/o stat pets), my team DPS is so obscenely high that nothing lives more than a few seconds, and in those situations the mobs are simply dead too fast for MoF to shine, which is simply true. This is of course why spellstorm looks better on the clear, because it's more burst, and many of the little mobs (skeletons, zombies, etc) have a lifetime of 1-2 seconds whereas MoF mechanics take a while to kick in.
This very reason is also why MoF CW perform well at draco because the whights and red wizards (and to some extent, the soldiers) live longer, and in this case debuff stacking can often provide a smoother kill than more burst.
However, while i'm not surprised with your results in that context, there are very, very few parties farming CN where the 5 man team is all 18K+ I think for the grand majority of players, a mix is the optimal composition, or say you run short man where there are only 3 of you - then a mix is probably optimal as well.
So that actually makes sense and we aren't in disagreement. Hopefully in MoD 3 the dungeon will be _much_ harder and everything won't die in two seconds
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Yes I think MoF would be a very viable build with some fixes, tweaks, and content that isnt steamrolled. I agree average parties can see some benefit from an MoF build. The problem really is the content...I mean in what reality is it ok to not need a tank or healer to complete end game content lol? Even with a full perfect team we should be forced to have a "tank" and healer. By endgame I mean CN/MC/VT. I mean we were easily clearing MC and VT as soon as they hit the preview shards and that just shouldnt be possible imo but it is due to the game mechanics.
Chem I do applaud you for going against the grain and making a name for yourself and pushing/optimizing the MoF build. Sorry to have somewhat sidetracked the thread.I hope PWE gives MoF a better chance by fixing the bugs, buffing the paragon and making harder content. Good luck to you
I agree completely, this content here is way too easy, i mean... way too easy man. We can clear CN 4 man without trying, 3 man is doable too - so why is that? I would love to have T3 dungeons.
For me, the biggest difference is playstyle. I hate playing like a selfish nukebot. I really like optimizing my team, helping them, and having smooth efficient runs. Quite honestly, if the run takes a little longer, but we stick together, have no wipes, and down draco one shot, every time, that's more valuable to me than rushing and shaving 5 minutes off my time. I want to enjoy myself while making AD.
Actually, my guild is having a small too many MoF issue - as I've said over and over a mix seems optimal, but if it's all MoF, i don't think swath stacks so it makes sense to only have one - and I switched day it comes out. I never liked Sudden Storm or OF, so I don't feel I'm missing much here.
If I ever get a better PC i'll be glad to upload more videos too. I'd really like to have a Crescendo Tube for our guild - but that's in the future.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Ignore the trolls and SS fan boys after reading most of those criticizing you i think they just dont get the jist of your post and what you have been saying not bagging SS CW but pointing out the benefit of a Fire CW complementing a SS CW and the group ..right at the start you clearly say the game is about team play .
Any way cheers and thanks -)
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
They don't understand. My guess is they couldn't cope with spellstorm, always got much less damage than other mages and couldn't understand why. So once this new paragon path came out they latched on the idea how it can help the team and all of a sudden they have an excuse for being bad. I saw it happen in other games too.
This phenomenon even has a name: Dunning–Kruger effect
"The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than is accurate. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their ineptitude.[1] Actual competence may weaken self-confidence, as competent individuals may falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding."
All we need do is see the foolishness they espouse and be amused. Eventually someone with potential will hop by and see the writing on the wall and join us instead.
Therefore I consider you as one "I've no clue about the CW and can only use a build that is easy to use" type of guy. So honestly, please stop trolling this thread.
I'm very amused about your single-mindedness.
The feats are exactly the same as your cookie cutter Thaumaturge. With that, the go to at will is still Chilling Cloud, same as a Spellstorm.
The class features are different, CC/CA versus EotS/SS. However, I believe EotS only adds an effective 10-12% to your actual crit rate. When I parsed SS in my normal build, it only equaled about 6% of total damage done. Adding smolder on crits, the extra 15% crit severity, and the rate of AP gain from CA isn't necessarily a bad trade off.
Spell-wise, I assume most Spellstorms are using Sudden Storm, but again, parsing out Sudden Storm is going to be about 25-30% of your total damage, which is a big percentage of damage that Fanning the Flame. However, Sudden Storm is a bit trickier to maximize damage with, while Fanning the Flame always hits.
But when taken in total, it's very tough to find out where the "double damage" from Spellstorm is coming from, versus MoF.
I can only imagine what happened was these guys switched to MoF, had no idea how to play the path, ran one dungeon and quickly switched back to their Spellstorm safety net.
So unless someone's going to post more than opinions, my experience doesn't jive. MoF is very much on par with Spellstorm in what it brings to the table.
This is very likely it. And on top of that, none of the detractor's has posted a single shred of analytical evidence to support their claims.
Anyone can come in here and say they're the best guild in the game, with the top enchants and able to do everything better than anyone else. Hell, you don't even need to have ever played the game to make that claim.
So unless these guys can offer up something more than words, there's no reason for them to be posting here.
EotS is 20% additional crit @ 30% existing crit. Which is about 18% dps increase with p.vorpal.
If a current elite spellstorm only changes path to MoF all he will lose should be about 18% dps compensated by probably nothing close to match from the MoF passives.
Giving up either CS or SS for the crappy MoF encounter will further lessen DPS.
Giving up the HV set will be further idiocy. I can easily see losing 50% dps by stacking crit instead of power and giving up HV in addition to giving up EotS.
This may be a stupid question but, did HV originally start out as being able to stack with other HV users? And if not, when did they change it so that it now stacks? Cause if they don't stack, then there is no point in having two people with HV together in a group.
Lone CW in the party = use HV
Two CWs in the party = one switches to another (if he / she wants too)
Such a simple concept that people in this thread can't seem to grasp. LOL
I do agree with the "stacking Crit instead of Power" thingy, though the amount of lowered dps is unclear.
PS. I still don't see any combat log parses to support these "numbers" people have been posting here. Clearly, it seems like such a difficult task to gather evidence to back up ones claims. /sarcasm
Up to at least two CW's in party: use HV, if more than 2 the 3rd may use other, the 4th definitely should use something else.
People are idiots, don't read my post, don't get the concept. Surely you understand that there is almost always 2CWs, one running SS/HV, me running MoF/SW.
If you have nothing better to do than troll and insult me, that's fine. I'm going to go dance on draco's corpse. TYVM,
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
I offered up 10mil if he can come in at half my damage, I don't see that being accepted do you? I looked at his character sheet, and it's not to say MoF will do 50% less, but with his stats, his rolls, his gear choices, HE will do 50% or less. I'm not making a bet, he loses nothing and stands to gain 10mil, yet do you see him stepping up?
Look at the damage difference in output here. I looked back at some of chem's logs and the highest shard 46k, highest daily 29k, steal time 22k. Open stox's log and see shard 81k, daily 113k (yes 113k OF,) steal time 37k, hell there are chill strikes for 61k in this log. Looks like stox's comp was 2x CW, GWF, TR, DC. For some of these numbers chem had 4x CW and 1x GWF, so imagine how many more debuffs were on the mob and still look at the damage numbers. Imagine stox's numbers with 2 more CWs each adding 25% or likely more mitigation and you'll quickly see the damage difference and how huge it actually is. And note that chem's are from a sample of many runs and party comps, whereas I'm sure stox has better logs than this he could share.
And what of all this hostility smurf? should i respec, go all offense, throw on my vorpal and say. "ooohhh look at my paingiver" or should I play how i want to play with people i want to play with and have smooth sucessful runs?
Personally i'd rather be happy than be a DPS *****. It's not like a struggling in any dimension over here.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
eots is a lot more powerfull then a lot of ppl think i do not play cw but i can always do 2xtimes more dps then most mof while i know to be 10-15% worse then spellstorm so i do think main reason for so huge power gap is lack of eye on mof u cant look total avarge crtic chance when eye is almost always on for 2 the best encounter u got try to look % of your damage done by critic and u will see how powerfull eye is
so they need need to buff up mof by a lot to be worth or nerf eye on spellstorm
Everything but CW needs a nerf.
Boost CW.
Sounds reasonable?
It's not a competition, this is a team game and both spec excells at what its specialised in. I have done 300k iceknife when i was SS and now 20k shards as MoF, SO WHAT?! The challenge in a run is to clear a whole dungeon without dying once (already rid of soulforged enchant), and defeat the final boss for rewards. Paingiver chart says nothing but result of how well the team cooperates not your own cos you are not soloing it.
Theres absolutely no reason to argue which build is superior, it all boils down to what playstyle suits after experiment. Having been played both specs, for me the "C" part of the CW has always been my style. I believe 2 x each spec together works for the best, cos we compensate what each other lacks. SS ofc will have high burst with slightly lower survivability, MOF deals less dps but can make it up by being extremely tanky, providing utility and debuffs (Smolder + Plaguefire/Terror etc), so SS mages can focus on dishing out even more insane dmg. Thats where we shine, despite the sheer number differences.
Its just a game, have fun play the way you enjoy, I love to be supportive and boost the team DPS, sure you can do well without MOF but you will love our companionship once you grp up with us.
/10 char
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
for anyone who wants to see.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Also, what is the base lvl of damage for Fanning the Flame and how do it behaves on mastery? Can you give exact numbers? I just want to compare it to Sudden Storm. I think about respecing into rene MoF to see how it works.
Fanning the flame damage is really nice. my sheet says 6119-7661, give you an idea of scaling ice knife 8816-10215 for me.
If fanning is part of the rotation, people in my guild are doing some testing on drifting embers - which is nice if you cast in sing, and fanning on tab is really good damage. I don't think it's quite as high as sudden storm in sing, but sudden storm is much harder to aim than fanning.
I think the major difference is playstyle. Try it out and see what you think, but so far it seems that people tend to strongly prefer one over another.
Feel free to leave me questions here,
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Just for the note: I am totally fine with my current Renegade Spellstorm, doing a lot of damage.
Can you also describe the Fanning the flame mechanics and all type of damages it does to main target and other burning targets on mastery and on basic. Also, what about Drifting Embers?
Also, will fire immediately convert to rimefire when hit by cold spell? One of our mages run cold Thaum and I am afraid it can cause problems since rimefire won't deal damage until some Icy Ground won't finish.
Another question is where there is a reason to use MoF at-will skill? People tend to say it is useless, is it really so?
Fanning the flame is complciated, and has 3 parts. I am not entirely sure how each part is calculated yet.
Drifting embers is nice if you use fanning in sing. On thaum you wouldn't put it on tab. In renegade, you can try fanning on tab. The main drawback is that fanning has much less AP gain than conduit or icy terrian, so you might need more recovery and/or use controlling action.
Smolder does change to rimfire pretty quick, but it's hard to tell in the long if this interrupts it or if the tick finishes - that said smolder is very nice damage on MoF. I wouldn't call it a problem, but it's something i hope they fix.
You can use scorching burst as a quick lifesteal, or to dot things with smolder, or maybe to open if everything is on cooldown. That said, i really only use chilling cloud PvE. Hope that helps.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
I tweaked a bit in your build(I am using GPF instead of P.Terror).
Here is a link: http://nwcalc.com/cw?b=m3z:27bcj7:14gmr7,13n306k:100000:1z0u0v:1uu000&h=0&p=mof
I go with FtF on tab, COi, Icy and Shard on encounter.. still on experimenting phase with the skills, but SMOOTH CN RUNS so far..
Btw, got your build from nano
~Sibuyas
Thumbs up bro
It's not a competition but a team-play.. and being the booster and debuffer of the team(main reason why adds die quickly as <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>) compliments a lot!..
~Sibuyas