It seems like an odd choice because it could take a little while to proc off at wills but people absolutely will make the most obnoxious use of oppressive force, its a great finisher and a great panic button but people use it to increase their own damage which slows everyone else's down by spreading out the mobs. And then they complain that it doesnt hit mobs in singularity, sorry for making life easier for everyone.
Admittedly it is highly annoying when people do that.
That and throwing mobs all over the place so they're spread out like dots on a map. Its a serious pain when you're trying to gather them all in one spot to AoE them to death. I run into that a lot in parties with mostly Rangers. They'll draw agro and bingo the mobs are all over the map, some on one side, some on him, some all over the place. It totally hoses up my game.
The best practice unless there's just too many is to gather them all in one spot and nuke the heck out of them while they're in a bunch.
Admittedly it is highly annoying when people do that.
That and throwing mobs all over the place so they're spread out like dots on a map. Its a serious pain when you're trying to gather them all in one spot to AoE them to death. I run into that a lot in parties with mostly Rangers. They'll draw agro and bingo the mobs are all over the map, some on one side, some on him, some all over the place. It totally hoses up my game.
The best practice unless there's just too many is to gather them all in one spot and nuke the heck out of them while they're in a bunch.
Better yet...gather them all up on top of the Ranger!
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uurbsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 449Bounty Hunter
[...] the most obnoxious use of oppressive force, its a great finisher and a great panic button but people use it to increase their own damage which slows everyone else's down by spreading out the mobs. [...]
No, it is the perfect start of a big trash pull, because it immediately stuns all the targets (no target limit) and provides time for the 2nd CW to pull them back together (if they are still standing).
No, it is the perfect start of a big trash pull, because it immediately stuns all the targets (no target limit) and provides time for the 2nd CW to pull them back together (if they are still standing).
This. Plus, if your team is gathered together the add's will gather together too while being unable to attack. It's all a matter of timing and team skill, but I wouldn't say it's always a good idea. Especially in PUG's and especially on Draco. The thing is, without a really good GF to control aggro your only real choice is to keep them controlled or everyone dies. Optimally, obviously, singularity on the boss while adding a whole lot of chill doesn't leave any room or requirement for OF unless things hit the fan. (Which they shouldn't in most cases.)
Glad to hear you're enjoying Combustive Action Chem, it definitely has it's place. I'm with you on SD being good too, it lets you switch things out depending on the group's DPS to maximize either DPS or Control.
I've seen some absurd damage numbers with FtF though. In FH, with CA/CC I've seen it hit for 6-7k per add killed with roughly 4k power, which can add up to several thousand damage depending on how much trash dies within the time limit. If you make sure to only hit the boss with the primary hit, and time it well with your Singularity or OF, it is some serious single-target DPS on top of pretty respectable AoE over time.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
So let me get this straight, you do a big pull and one guy hits op force and then you wait till it ends before gathering them into a singularity to then make the most efficient use of your encounters. Its much faster to just gather them up and put the damage on the densely packed mob ball. That's one rotation and done.
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uurbsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 449Bounty Hunter
So let me get this straight, you do a big pull and one guy hits op force and then you wait till it ends before gathering them into a singularity to then make the most efficient use of your encounters. Its much faster to just gather them up and put the damage on the densely packed mob ball. That's one rotation and done.
Ok, let me do an example: Go to VT, gather all the trash up to the ones above the stairs.
try using Arcane Singularity --> you will (probably) die
try using Oppressive Force --> you will live
And btw, I wasn't writing anything about not using encounter powers after Oppressive, of course you do. Therefore a more detailed rotation:
Oppressive Force
Conduit of Ice
Shard of the Endless Avalanche
Steal Time
if and only if the MOBs are spread out (which they rarely will, because as Spacejew was pointing out, if the group is together the MOBs will run to you anyway), do an Arcane Singularity
Sudden Storm after the Singularity (and at lastest now every trash is dead)
You should not forget that Arcane Singularity:
only hits 15 MOBs
the MOBs are still able to hit you
as opposed to Oppressive Force has no target limit and works instantly
By the time you (always using Arcane Singularity) are engaging the first boss in VT, we already engage Valindra.
Proud member of Dragon Clan - German Gaming Community
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited March 2014
Sorry to drop out of the discussion for so long. I've been lurking a bit, but works kept me too busy to put together a lot more analysis.
Anyway, I think it's been clearly shown by a lot of posters here that MoF is obviously a viable and extremely powerful PP for the CW, and I would recommend to any aspiring CW who wants to toss around a little fire to pick up the path.
Some stuff I've taken away from the last few pages:
CC, CA and SoD are all great class features and have their uses. SoD is a great debuff if you don't need the extra AP from CA. CA is a great tool for quickly generating AP.
FtF is a fantastic substitute for CoI on tab. The extra AOE component + smolder is a great boost to the overall damage of FtF, and when used on a tough mob surrounded by other smaller mobs, it's incredibly lethal.
I still think the core Thaumaturge build is the way to go with MoF. After testing out a bunch of different builds using Renegade and Thaumaturge and combinations of both, I've come to the conclusion that you'll just get consistently better results using Thaumaturge. Obviously, Renegade is still very viable, but if anyone asks me, I'm pointing them to Thaumaturge for a MoF.
Unfortunately, after playing around with MoF, there are still some downsides:
The smolder/rimfire bug is disappointing, but not devastating. It'll be a nice boost to MoF when it's fixed.
Scorching Burst is all around lack luster as an at-will. The use is cumbersome, and the damage is mediocre at best. And with FtF, CC and CA, you don't need Scorching Burst to get smolders on targets.
Furious Immolation is outclassed in every single way by either Singularity or Oppressive Force. Much like MoC (especially after the fix), there's no reason to put points here.
Scorching Burst is all around lack luster as an at-will. The use is cumbersome, and the damage is mediocre at best. And with FtF, CC and CA, you don't need Scorching Burst to get smolders on targets.
I tend to agree that for a Thaum there isn't really much reason to use SB given that Chilling Cloud is one of your main damage boosters for encounters. For a Renegade who takes Reaper's Touch, it becomes slightly more attractive to charge SB and fire it with one MM for Chaos Magic at virtually point blank. If done after a debuff rotation it up's the damage to easily 4k per target hit by the initial burst (on a crit), but really it's just something I do while encounters are on CD to proc CM while doing AoE damage at the same time.
(And all this is just considering that SB is easier to use and does either comparable or more damage than Chilling Cloud for Renegades, and as you say Renegade generally under performs Thaums so it's a moot question for most.)
Furious Immolation is outclassed in every single way by either Singularity or Oppressive Force. Much like MoC (especially after the fix), there's no reason to put points here.
Sadly I concur. If it could crit FI would be a slightly more attractive option. Frankly, even then Singularity and OF both do more straight damage while hitting more targets. It's just all around design fail centered around FI, even the daze from oppressor which no one in the universe would take doesn't improve the ability to the point where any rational person would choose it.
Even using it at the exact right time, on fully debuffed add's from both CA/SD, the damage is still laughable. It doesn't win even in the most ideal of possible situations, and needs to be either changed or the word spread about how terrible it is.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
And please please please don't make misleading claims like "CN is clearable by any group". That's not true. It is only clearable by "any group" that is insanely overgeared and has tons of experience.
For people who have just gotten to the T2/T2.5 weapon stage, and maybe only 2 blue/purple artifacts, which is about 14k GS or so, CN is only realistically clearable by a 3 CW team, and then maybe only barely.
I meant only any group composition, not any 5 people. I thought that was clear. My apologies
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited March 2014
I agree as well. If you're going Renegade, the MM/SB should be your go to at-wills. I keep MM/CC as my at-wills on my Thaum build, because I think you get much better single target performance out of MM generally.
I'm pretty convinced these MoF guys have never run with a good CW, otherwise they would realize quickly how bad MoF is...
Post up some of your parses on the Dracolich and we can talk about it. Because everyone here's who's taken the time to actually parse MoF vs SS seem to reach a different conclusion.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited March 2014
Trippy, i have run with some of the best CWs on the server, so it's not even a debatable point there.
Who have you played with? which guilds have you run with? if you really want to play this game, i'm sure we can do it.
Thoughts -
OF is nice, I hate it because it scatters mobs, but when there are more than 15 adds:
sing: catches 15, the rest smash your face (bad)
OF: catches everything - you don't die, gather with sing (either second CW or you are using CA to get AP).
I actually really dislike using OF because it's so bad for team DPS, but if there is just one CW there are times when you have no chocie.
Immolation is actually great - it gathers the mobs, adds a dot, does good damage, etc - the problem isn't the mechanic, rather the target cap. A target cap of 8 is the main drawback.
Immolation doesn't have that issue where it interrupts everyone else's spells like shard or sudden storm or whatever, whereas sing can throw off the other CW's rotations. It doesn't have the "spread everything all over" problem that OF does either, so when used appropriately, immolation is good.
As for gear, i was i think 15.2 when i wrote the guide, but since got a book, leveled things up, leveled enchants, and now i'm over 16.4, so I had to change jewlery to avoid DR.
The reason i don't recommend it on forums is that it's very tweaky based around my specific enchants and gear pieces, and if you wore the same thing the stats might not make as much sense. If you are say, 13k-15k, the MC/DL set is probably nice to balancing stats, but i had too much crit/arp with them and changed it around.
I'm pretty convinced these MoF guys have never run with a good CW, otherwise they would realize quickly how bad MoF is...
I'm not so sure...
One thing regardless of game that DoT based mages have always had in common. They are exceptional at taking out large high hit point, armored targets more efficiently than anyone else. Heck even though I generally play burst damage as my favorite, even I use COI on large high health armored targets and any DoT I can stick on them, because when you're in the marathon fight, that's the most efficient.
While they are not as good at burst damage, one that that always marks a DoT caster is that claim to fame tactically.
Trippy, i have run with some of the best CWs on the server, so it's not even a debatable point there.
Who have you played with? which guilds have you run with? if you really want to play this game, i'm sure we can do it.
Thoughts -
OF is nice, I hate it because it scatters mobs, but when there are more than 15 adds:
sing: catches 15, the rest smash your face (bad)
OF: catches everything - you don't die, gather with sing (either second CW or you are using CA to get AP).
I actually really dislike using OF because it's so bad for team DPS, but if there is just one CW there are times when you have no chocie.
Immolation is actually great - it gathers the mobs, adds a dot, does good damage, etc - the problem isn't the mechanic, rather the target cap. A target cap of 8 is the main drawback.
Immolation doesn't have that issue where it interrupts everyone else's spells like shard or sudden storm or whatever, whereas sing can throw off the other CW's rotations. It doesn't have the "spread everything all over" problem that OF does either, so when used appropriately, immolation is good.
As for gear, i was i think 15.2 when i wrote the guide, but since got a book, leveled things up, leveled enchants, and now i'm over 16.4, so I had to change jewlery to avoid DR.
The reason i don't recommend it on forums is that it's very tweaky based around my specific enchants and gear pieces, and if you wore the same thing the stats might not make as much sense. If you are say, 13k-15k, the MC/DL set is probably nice to balancing stats, but i had too much crit/arp with them and changed it around.
You run shadow weaver and talk about team dps? lol. I already know you're bad just from seeing that... hp/def/deflection rings and belt? a non ideal stat roll? Can I add you to run with you? Your build is honestly good but MoF and your gear choices leave something to be desired. I would put 10mil on the line that says you would not have 50% of my dps.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited March 2014
The fact you are talking about maxing YOUR DPS - you are missing the whole point man, you simply just don't get it.
The fact you are talking about maxing YOUR DPS - you are missing the whole point man, you simply just don't get it.
So let's say you take 3 other CWs like you and a DC. I could take me and kune and a dozen others to fill other spots and we will literally have twice the damage output of your party. Which is more beneficial to the party and which is going to clear faster through content? In fact the biggest problem I have running with CWs like you is that every mob is on me, all the time. As in not one person in the entire rest of the party does enough damage to get aggro from a single mob or even a boss... Which means I spend 90% of my time running like an idiot and trying not to die, and still do twice their damage...
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited March 2014
Ok. Your opinion has been noted.
Now unless you'd actually like to put up some data, I don't know what else there is to debate here.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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jv1kaiMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
So let's say you take 3 other CWs like you and a DC. I could take me and kune and a dozen others to fill other spots and we will literally have twice the damage output of your party. Which is more beneficial to the party and which is going to clear faster through content? In fact the biggest problem I have running with CWs like you is that every mob is on me, all the time. As in not one person in the entire rest of the party does enough damage to get aggro from a single mob or even a boss... Which means I spend 90% of my time running like an idiot and trying not to die, and still do twice their damage...
Obvious stuff is obvious. Did chem say he was going to run with 3 other CWs with the same builds as him? Who in their right mind would even do that, it's like running with a whole bunch of debuffers (I don't have the statistics to actually say that this team make-up would really be disasterous but that's beside the point lol).
So basically, your post / example / point is moot.
Chem brought up the build as a "support" role that would help increase everybody else's DPS. It is logical to think that he means to be the only "Support MOF" in the team and all the other CWs are SSs (which, if you actually put the time to read the thread, was what he said he usually ran with).
Oh and another thing, yeah, where are the data / log parses backing up your claims of "we will literally have twice the damage output of your party"? If you wanna claim something, back it up.
Obvious stuff is obvious. Did chem say he was going to run with 3 other CWs with the same builds as him? Who in their right mind would even do that, it's like running with a whole bunch of debuffers (I don't have the statistics to actually say that this team make-up would really be disasterous but that's beside the point lol).
So basically, your post / example / point is moot.
Chem brought up the build as a "support" role that would help increase everybody else's DPS. It is logical to think that he means to be the only "Support MOF" in the team and all the other CWs are SSs (which, if you actually put the time to read the thread, was what he said he usually ran with).
Oh and another thing, yeah, where are the data / log parses backing up your claims of "we will literally have twice the damage output of your party"? If you wanna claim something, back it up.
If you have ever run a dungeon with an MoF and SS CW you wouldnt need data/logs. SS usually have 2x+ the dmg output of an equally geared/skilled MoF. Im not saying MoF CW's dont have their place.....well actually thats exactly what im saying I guess. The only valid reason to run an MoF currently is that you want something new/different but you wont be as valuable as any other DPS class. Having another high DPS toon is more efficient that a debuffer because debuffs aren't needed (minus very few boss fights) because mobs die too fast.. Its not a player problem its the game mechanics.
SS is higher dps, but i doubt the TWICE the damage
Easily 2x dmg output actually.
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited March 2014
I have only seen double very rarely - and that's often because said CW runs _way_ ahead of the whole party and gets first hit on every mob, every time, which i call playing selfishly to win paingiver ^^ I don't like that style at all.
If we all stick together, the difference is more like 10-20% (i.e. playing in a team).
Also remember that high DPS stormspells have very low defensive stats, and use all offensive pets. I'm using two control pets (no DPS bonus), defensive gear, and a perfect terror, which boosts OTHER people's DPS almost as much mine.
So yes, stormspells outdamage me on the clear, but the reason THEIR DPS is so high is because I am constantly and consistently setting them up to succeed - this is a new, unheard of concept called "teamwork," which I am sure many of you have never heard of before.
Oh, there is a new concept called "survavibility" where by you do things like control, stun, freeze, life steal and not die - meaning you don't need a CW, or a tank, or even five people.
I am sure these are new concepts to many people, as we know, paingiver is the most reliable ranking of skill and effectiveness. I couldn't imagine why anyone would want to clear quickly, reliably, and smoothly, multiple times in multiple compositions. I'd much rather win paingiver.
I have only seen double very rarely - and that's often because said CW runs _way_ ahead of the whole party and gets first hit on every mob, every time, which i call playing selfishly to win paingiver ^^ I don't like that style at all.
If we all stick together, the difference is more like 10-20% (i.e. playing in a team).
Also remember that high DPS stormspells have very low defensive stats, and use all offensive pets. I'm using two control pets (no DPS bonus), defensive gear, and a perfect terror, which boosts OTHER people's DPS almost as much mine.
So yes, stormspells outdamage me on the clear, but the reason THEIR DPS is so high is because I am constantly and consistently setting them up to succeed - this is a new, unheard of concept called "teamwork," which I am sure many of you have never heard of before.
Oh, there is a new concept called "survavibility" where by you do things like control, stun, freeze, life steal and not die - meaning you don't need a CW, or a tank, or even five people.
I am sure these are new concepts to many people, as we know, paingiver is the most reliable ranking of skill and effectiveness. I couldn't imagine why anyone would want to clear quickly, reliably, and smoothly, multiple times in multiple compositions. I'd much rather win paingiver.
Thank you,
Im not saying you are a bad player or that MoF itself is a "wrong" choice at all but we have some of the best CW's on the server in our guild (perfect's, rank 10's, legendarys, etc) and we have all tested MoF vs SS together as we ARE all about teamwork and want the most efficient setup to clear content. Our 2 very best CW's both ran SS and MoF vs each other many times and the SS build always doubled the MoF (and yes both have great defensive stats in addition to offense). My point is simply that if 2x the dmg is achievable by choosing one paragon vs the other then anything the lesser DPS build brings to the table is null and void. I have no problem running with MoF CW's but to indicate in any way that they are more beneficial or desirable to a group is false.
Edit: This is coming from testing using the best gear and stats available so I assume it may be possible for lower end MoF CW's to bring something to a party of rank 5-7 geared players as fights would last longer etc.
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uurbsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 449Bounty Hunter
If you have ever run a dungeon with an MoF and SS CW you wouldnt need data/logs. SS usually have 2x+ the dmg output of an equally geared/skilled MoF. [...]
Then you may care to explain to me, why my MoF CW still does more damage (at least in add heavy boss fights) as my nearly same equipped CW's I usually run with? My SS CW does slightly more damage as my MoF, but not two times that much.
Then you may care to explain to me, why my MoF CW still does more damage (at least in add heavy boss fights) as my nearly same equipped CW's I usually run with? My SS CW does slightly more damage as my MoF, but not two times that much.
Im going to assume you do not have max stats which the SS CW build is able to benefit from more than the MoF build. For instnace an MoF build usually focuses on crit while SS can dump those points in Power, Rec, ArP, etc. Once you have full Rank 10's, perfects, Legendary x 3 and really no room to improve then a SS CW is untouchable by an equally geared MoF in terms of DPS. I did try to clarify that in my 2nd post so sorry for any confusion. I'm sure a large majority of the playerbase is not even close to the above however when you do get to witness the difference its quite astonishing. I'm sure they will fix the MoF build but like it or not it is broken and inferior at the moment.
That's just because only baddies use MoF. If I were to lose my mind and switch to one I will probably lose 25% dps maximum.
Unless of course the MoF in question gives up HV and for some stupid reason stacks crit instead of power. I would just keep the 1.5k crit.
Edit:
And this assumes I don't change my rotation at all. If I have to slot in the garbage MoF skills then I can easily see myself losing half my dps. So I guess you are right.
Comments
Admittedly it is highly annoying when people do that.
That and throwing mobs all over the place so they're spread out like dots on a map. Its a serious pain when you're trying to gather them all in one spot to AoE them to death. I run into that a lot in parties with mostly Rangers. They'll draw agro and bingo the mobs are all over the map, some on one side, some on him, some all over the place. It totally hoses up my game.
The best practice unless there's just too many is to gather them all in one spot and nuke the heck out of them while they're in a bunch.
Better yet...gather them all up on top of the Ranger!
This. Plus, if your team is gathered together the add's will gather together too while being unable to attack. It's all a matter of timing and team skill, but I wouldn't say it's always a good idea. Especially in PUG's and especially on Draco. The thing is, without a really good GF to control aggro your only real choice is to keep them controlled or everyone dies. Optimally, obviously, singularity on the boss while adding a whole lot of chill doesn't leave any room or requirement for OF unless things hit the fan. (Which they shouldn't in most cases.)
Glad to hear you're enjoying Combustive Action Chem, it definitely has it's place. I'm with you on SD being good too, it lets you switch things out depending on the group's DPS to maximize either DPS or Control.
I've seen some absurd damage numbers with FtF though. In FH, with CA/CC I've seen it hit for 6-7k per add killed with roughly 4k power, which can add up to several thousand damage depending on how much trash dies within the time limit. If you make sure to only hit the boss with the primary hit, and time it well with your Singularity or OF, it is some serious single-target DPS on top of pretty respectable AoE over time.
And btw, I wasn't writing anything about not using encounter powers after Oppressive, of course you do. Therefore a more detailed rotation:
You should not forget that Arcane Singularity:
- only hits 15 MOBs
- the MOBs are still able to hit you
as opposed to Oppressive Force has no target limit and works instantlyBy the time you (always using Arcane Singularity) are engaging the first boss in VT, we already engage Valindra.
Anyway, I think it's been clearly shown by a lot of posters here that MoF is obviously a viable and extremely powerful PP for the CW, and I would recommend to any aspiring CW who wants to toss around a little fire to pick up the path.
Some stuff I've taken away from the last few pages:
CC, CA and SoD are all great class features and have their uses. SoD is a great debuff if you don't need the extra AP from CA. CA is a great tool for quickly generating AP.
FtF is a fantastic substitute for CoI on tab. The extra AOE component + smolder is a great boost to the overall damage of FtF, and when used on a tough mob surrounded by other smaller mobs, it's incredibly lethal.
I still think the core Thaumaturge build is the way to go with MoF. After testing out a bunch of different builds using Renegade and Thaumaturge and combinations of both, I've come to the conclusion that you'll just get consistently better results using Thaumaturge. Obviously, Renegade is still very viable, but if anyone asks me, I'm pointing them to Thaumaturge for a MoF.
Unfortunately, after playing around with MoF, there are still some downsides:
The smolder/rimfire bug is disappointing, but not devastating. It'll be a nice boost to MoF when it's fixed.
Scorching Burst is all around lack luster as an at-will. The use is cumbersome, and the damage is mediocre at best. And with FtF, CC and CA, you don't need Scorching Burst to get smolders on targets.
Furious Immolation is outclassed in every single way by either Singularity or Oppressive Force. Much like MoC (especially after the fix), there's no reason to put points here.
I tend to agree that for a Thaum there isn't really much reason to use SB given that Chilling Cloud is one of your main damage boosters for encounters. For a Renegade who takes Reaper's Touch, it becomes slightly more attractive to charge SB and fire it with one MM for Chaos Magic at virtually point blank. If done after a debuff rotation it up's the damage to easily 4k per target hit by the initial burst (on a crit), but really it's just something I do while encounters are on CD to proc CM while doing AoE damage at the same time.
(And all this is just considering that SB is easier to use and does either comparable or more damage than Chilling Cloud for Renegades, and as you say Renegade generally under performs Thaums so it's a moot question for most.)
Sadly I concur. If it could crit FI would be a slightly more attractive option. Frankly, even then Singularity and OF both do more straight damage while hitting more targets. It's just all around design fail centered around FI, even the daze from oppressor which no one in the universe would take doesn't improve the ability to the point where any rational person would choose it.
Even using it at the exact right time, on fully debuffed add's from both CA/SD, the damage is still laughable. It doesn't win even in the most ideal of possible situations, and needs to be either changed or the word spread about how terrible it is.
I meant only any group composition, not any 5 people. I thought that was clear. My apologies
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Post up some of your parses on the Dracolich and we can talk about it. Because everyone here's who's taken the time to actually parse MoF vs SS seem to reach a different conclusion.
Who have you played with? which guilds have you run with? if you really want to play this game, i'm sure we can do it.
Thoughts -
OF is nice, I hate it because it scatters mobs, but when there are more than 15 adds:
sing: catches 15, the rest smash your face (bad)
OF: catches everything - you don't die, gather with sing (either second CW or you are using CA to get AP).
I actually really dislike using OF because it's so bad for team DPS, but if there is just one CW there are times when you have no chocie.
Immolation is actually great - it gathers the mobs, adds a dot, does good damage, etc - the problem isn't the mechanic, rather the target cap. A target cap of 8 is the main drawback.
Immolation doesn't have that issue where it interrupts everyone else's spells like shard or sudden storm or whatever, whereas sing can throw off the other CW's rotations. It doesn't have the "spread everything all over" problem that OF does either, so when used appropriately, immolation is good.
As for gear, i was i think 15.2 when i wrote the guide, but since got a book, leveled things up, leveled enchants, and now i'm over 16.4, so I had to change jewlery to avoid DR.
My current gear is here:
http://gateway.playneverwinter.com/#char(Makaria%20Fiendline@chemboy613)/charactersheet
The reason i don't recommend it on forums is that it's very tweaky based around my specific enchants and gear pieces, and if you wore the same thing the stats might not make as much sense. If you are say, 13k-15k, the MC/DL set is probably nice to balancing stats, but i had too much crit/arp with them and changed it around.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
I'm not so sure...
One thing regardless of game that DoT based mages have always had in common. They are exceptional at taking out large high hit point, armored targets more efficiently than anyone else. Heck even though I generally play burst damage as my favorite, even I use COI on large high health armored targets and any DoT I can stick on them, because when you're in the marathon fight, that's the most efficient.
While they are not as good at burst damage, one that that always marks a DoT caster is that claim to fame tactically.
You run shadow weaver and talk about team dps? lol. I already know you're bad just from seeing that... hp/def/deflection rings and belt? a non ideal stat roll? Can I add you to run with you? Your build is honestly good but MoF and your gear choices leave something to be desired. I would put 10mil on the line that says you would not have 50% of my dps.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
What is the point in buffing your team dps when a CW is perfectly capable of having more DPS than the rest of a (very good) team combined?
So let's say you take 3 other CWs like you and a DC. I could take me and kune and a dozen others to fill other spots and we will literally have twice the damage output of your party. Which is more beneficial to the party and which is going to clear faster through content? In fact the biggest problem I have running with CWs like you is that every mob is on me, all the time. As in not one person in the entire rest of the party does enough damage to get aggro from a single mob or even a boss... Which means I spend 90% of my time running like an idiot and trying not to die, and still do twice their damage...
Now unless you'd actually like to put up some data, I don't know what else there is to debate here.
Obvious stuff is obvious. Did chem say he was going to run with 3 other CWs with the same builds as him? Who in their right mind would even do that, it's like running with a whole bunch of debuffers (I don't have the statistics to actually say that this team make-up would really be disasterous but that's beside the point lol).
So basically, your post / example / point is moot.
Chem brought up the build as a "support" role that would help increase everybody else's DPS. It is logical to think that he means to be the only "Support MOF" in the team and all the other CWs are SSs (which, if you actually put the time to read the thread, was what he said he usually ran with).
Oh and another thing, yeah, where are the data / log parses backing up your claims of "we will literally have twice the damage output of your party"? If you wanna claim something, back it up.
If you have ever run a dungeon with an MoF and SS CW you wouldnt need data/logs. SS usually have 2x+ the dmg output of an equally geared/skilled MoF. Im not saying MoF CW's dont have their place.....well actually thats exactly what im saying I guess. The only valid reason to run an MoF currently is that you want something new/different but you wont be as valuable as any other DPS class. Having another high DPS toon is more efficient that a debuffer because debuffs aren't needed (minus very few boss fights) because mobs die too fast.. Its not a player problem its the game mechanics.
Easily 2x dmg output actually.
If we all stick together, the difference is more like 10-20% (i.e. playing in a team).
Also remember that high DPS stormspells have very low defensive stats, and use all offensive pets. I'm using two control pets (no DPS bonus), defensive gear, and a perfect terror, which boosts OTHER people's DPS almost as much mine.
So yes, stormspells outdamage me on the clear, but the reason THEIR DPS is so high is because I am constantly and consistently setting them up to succeed - this is a new, unheard of concept called "teamwork," which I am sure many of you have never heard of before.
Oh, there is a new concept called "survavibility" where by you do things like control, stun, freeze, life steal and not die - meaning you don't need a CW, or a tank, or even five people.
I am sure these are new concepts to many people, as we know, paingiver is the most reliable ranking of skill and effectiveness. I couldn't imagine why anyone would want to clear quickly, reliably, and smoothly, multiple times in multiple compositions. I'd much rather win paingiver.
Thank you,
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Im not saying you are a bad player or that MoF itself is a "wrong" choice at all but we have some of the best CW's on the server in our guild (perfect's, rank 10's, legendarys, etc) and we have all tested MoF vs SS together as we ARE all about teamwork and want the most efficient setup to clear content. Our 2 very best CW's both ran SS and MoF vs each other many times and the SS build always doubled the MoF (and yes both have great defensive stats in addition to offense). My point is simply that if 2x the dmg is achievable by choosing one paragon vs the other then anything the lesser DPS build brings to the table is null and void. I have no problem running with MoF CW's but to indicate in any way that they are more beneficial or desirable to a group is false.
Edit: This is coming from testing using the best gear and stats available so I assume it may be possible for lower end MoF CW's to bring something to a party of rank 5-7 geared players as fights would last longer etc.
Im going to assume you do not have max stats which the SS CW build is able to benefit from more than the MoF build. For instnace an MoF build usually focuses on crit while SS can dump those points in Power, Rec, ArP, etc. Once you have full Rank 10's, perfects, Legendary x 3 and really no room to improve then a SS CW is untouchable by an equally geared MoF in terms of DPS. I did try to clarify that in my 2nd post so sorry for any confusion. I'm sure a large majority of the playerbase is not even close to the above however when you do get to witness the difference its quite astonishing. I'm sure they will fix the MoF build but like it or not it is broken and inferior at the moment.
That's just because only baddies use MoF. If I were to lose my mind and switch to one I will probably lose 25% dps maximum.
Unless of course the MoF in question gives up HV and for some stupid reason stacks crit instead of power. I would just keep the 1.5k crit.
Edit:
And this assumes I don't change my rotation at all. If I have to slot in the garbage MoF skills then I can easily see myself losing half my dps. So I guess you are right.