I fail to see your point Trip, unless your point was just to post a list of things to prove that you can read tool tips. RoE is an amazing debuff that does a ton of single-target damage. Renegade gets the most out of it. A parse will prove my point, which is that a Spellstorm Thaum will do more AoE damage. Who are you arguing with?
You can, of course, argue that only AoE debuff/DPS matters but that doesn't mean Renegade MoF is bad at it's role. It just means you don't value that role.
This would seem to apply to you exactly.
This isn't the thread to argue that point anyway, the OP is a Thaum. Heck, I'm guilty of pointing out renegade's bonuses too so I'll agree to stop hijacking this thread intentionally or not.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
I have a slightly different MoF/Thaum build (couple of feat, boon and gear options) but I can ensure you that MoF is a realy great combination, the debuffing is more than noticeable, and I consistently do more damage on boss fights than almost any P. Vorpal SS wiz i've ran with. Oh, i use a GPF (or P. Terr.).
If you guys want some illustration on how this build can work (or at least how i play it) you can see this video of a 3-men draco kill
with a Renegade SS with P. Vorp. a Thaum MoF (me on POV) with P. Terr. and a Instigator I.V. GWF.
I have a slightly different MoF/Thaum build (couple of feat, boon and gear options) but I can ensure you that MoF is a realy great combination, the debuffing is more than noticeable, and I consistently do more damage on boss fights than almost any P. Vorpal SS wiz i've ran with. Oh, i use a GPF (or P. Terr.).
If you guys want some illustration on how this build can work (or at least how i play it) you can see this video of a 3-men draco kill
with a Renegade SS with P. Vorp. a Thaum MoF (me on POV) with P. Terr. and a Instigator I.V. GWF.
I've done it with Chem as well in a 3 wiz only party and we did it in less than 10 minutes, Thaum MoF ftw
I'd be curious what your feats are, as you're running pretty much exactly the powers I wanted to test out only couldn't fit the build into the given feat points. I'm guessing you don't use Arcane Burst to keep your arcane stacks high and just rely on your arcane spells to fill that role.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
I'm really curious too as I run the same encounter (only differ on scorching burst) . I think you user Critical Conflagration and Swatch of Destruction but can you confirm ?
Well, i guess there is no doubt about powers. Arcane stacks are not even a concern of mine in this build during fights, i just have the habbit of sometimes stand near shard a while before throwing and thats as good as it gets. I dont miss the 5 stacks i used to have as a SS renegade though, they are good but i can compensate with other buffs.
As for feats, i got WM, Toughness, Fight On, Wizards Wrath, Blighting Power and Focused Wizardry, all maxed.
On Thaum tree i got Tempest and Malevolant, Frozen Power Transfer, Transcended, E. Empowerment and Assailing Force.
On Opressor tree i got Bitter Cold.
I use the two last class features since they provide a smolder debuff and improved damage and critical severity and smolder proc.
I rarely use scorching burst but its good heal sometimes (My spec is a bit more tanky than it could be, i just like doing dungeons with less than 5 people, and for tougher fights, that tankiness is needed, still the damage output is realy nice).
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited February 2014
yeah, gosmatic here, he compensates for no critical power with more recovery than I do, so our AP gain is similar.
He out DPSes me a bit because of bitter cold and transcendent master is a bit more personal DPS, that said, nightmare wizardry is more team DPS - and I am always thinking team first.
We've 3 manned draco together and my SF didn't even go off. No issues whatsoever.
That said, thaum vs. renegade - i think it's more than coincidence that the grand majority of high end CWs go thaum, elemental empowerment and assailing force are so amazing. The best things in renegade tree are crit power and nightmare wizardry.
That said, it is better to play with a 90% spec you like rather than a 100% spec you don't. Gotta play how you want to play.
For me, the only problem with Renegade as MoF is that it force to use Magic Missile. Even it's a bit self-contradictory as there's also a feat to give Scorching Burst some Arcane stack capability.
The last feat work better with Encounter than At-Will. If the buff/debuff was applied by an encounter instead, it should work a lot better.
@gosmatic : great built. I have nearly the same. I use Learned Spellcaster because of IT and Smolder, even if I'm not so sure if Intel increase Smolder's damage.
For me, the only problem with Renegade as MoF is that it force to use Magic Missile. Even it's a bit self-contradictory as there's also a feat to give Scorching Burst some Arcane stack capability.
The last feat work better with Encounter than At-Will. If the buff/debuff was applied by an encounter instead, it should work a lot better.
@gosmatic : great built. I have nearly the same. I use Learned Spellcaster because of IT and Smolder, even if I'm not so sure if Intel increase Smolder's damage.
Honestly I totally agree with you in a lot of ways, especially on Arcane Burst vs. MM for Arcane stacks. I'd really love to run Scorching Burst and Chilling Cloud, but I just really love the bonus to RoE from Renegade and if you go that deep into the tree you might as well grab it all. I do like magic missile more than CoI though, so meh. I like Arcane Burst enough that I really want it, but I also don't want to lose Nightmare Wizardy if I was Thaum.
I think they made a boneheaded mistake in not changing the end cap abilities based on the new paragons. Only changing some dinky 2nd tier skill is silly. If you can put chaos magic on scorching burst or chilling cloud it would be everything I ever wanted. And TBH Thaum should get the same bonus to FtF as they would get from CoI if they go MoF.
That would go a long way to making the different tree's unique, and the paragons themselves.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
I still have some doubts about some of my feats that i dont seem to figure out, such as Wizards Wrath, Focused Eizardry and Learned Spellcaster. I don't know wich spells each affects, i chose the fist two only because of what the tooltip said, improved 15% AOE dmg. Learned Spellcaster seems to improve overall dps by more or less 5% (i think the inteligence related component is not that significant).
If u guys know anything about this please tell me, i'd realy apreciate it.
Learned Spellcaster gain is about 6%.
But we still don't know how the intel bonus work exactly with each spell. Some can have a big coef while other won't.
As MoF, my problem came from that a big part aren't AOE : Icy terrain and Smolder.
On heavy add fight, Icy Terrain is the primary source of Smolder and Smolder is equal to 10%+ of our damage. So personnaly, I prefer a feat that increase less but all our spell.
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited February 2014
So I've been playing around with MoF all weekend, and I'm very pleased with the results.
DISCLAIMER: I cleared CN twice this weekend, and VT multiple times. A word about the people I play with, as a reference. This is us. We're not hardcore gamers. We don't judge by GS and we'll take anyone who wants to go anywhere. We have some really good players in the community, but I want to avoid turning this discussion into who's a better player at what. I'll put up some screenshots of my parses as a reference, but let's all be realistic here. The best of the best can clear any content with any build, so this isn't about discussing "the best of the best". This is about theorycrafting more around the MoF to prove viability for all content.
So here's the ACT from the first Dracolich kill, which was my first time fighting him as a MoF. I was using the standard Thaum build. FtF on tab, CoI, Steal Time and Shard. CC at will. CC and CA as features. I was using a GPF enchant.
The group was 2 SS CW's, GWF and a DC:
The most interesting thing about this parse is the amount of damage FtF was responsible for on Ms. Draco.
FtF has multiple components. Fanning the Flame, Gathering Flame, Rimfire, Smolder and Final Flame are all relevant.
Adding those up, we see that FtF contributed to 22% of the total damage done to just the Dracolich, which I thought was pretty impressive. It was also extremely easy to use. The combination of CC and CA generated a lot of AP and allowed me to fire off singularities at least 50% faster than the other CW's, if not more. That kept smolder on all the mobs, and allowed Gathering Flame to do it's thing.
Which leads to another interesting screenshot:
That's the total damage done for myself during CN (which also put me on top of the damage done, as well):
Again, I was running CC and CA. Note that Singularity accounted for 12% (2nd behind Shardsplosion) for total damage. I think that speaks to how powerful the AP gain is from the combination of CC and CA.
And more Singularities means the mobs stay pulled together more often, which means more overall DPS for the group. In my mind, the extra control and grouping outweighs the 6% damage boost from SoD.
Total damage done by Rimfire/Smolder was 11%, so it's a toss up on the extra 24% damage there. From parsing other runs this weekend, that ~10% seems pretty consistent. In my humble opinion, I think the AP gain and additional Singularities was much more beneficial to the group than a small bump in damage.
What this is leading me to believe is that the MoF paragon path, while being less capable of big burst damage numbers, is more than capable of matching a SS mage's total damage. MoF seems to pull even to a head in longer fights, and generate significantly more AP, allowing for faster daily use. FtF is starting to stand out as a really hard target melter. Given all the components of FtF, the sheer damage potential on a single mob surrounded by adds shouldn't be discounted.
And with the last few patches fixing the AP gains on some of our spells and feats, I also wouldn't discount the improved AP gain. I think a lot of CW's around here were disappointed by the reduction in our ability to rapidly fire off Singularity's after the fixes, but MoF puts that back on the table.
Right now, I'm experimenting with a MoF Renegade build. I'm trying to keep things interesting and fresh by removing CoI from the mix, and I'll let you know how that testing goes.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited February 2014
Also, something to note (that I just picked up on). Rimfire switches the smolder damage to Cold from Fire. Which has me thinking about Blighting Power over Wizard's Wrath...
I still have some doubts about some of my feats that i dont seem to figure out, such as Wizards Wrath, Focused Eizardry and Learned Spellcaster. I don't know wich spells each affects, i chose the fist two only because of what the tooltip said, improved 15% AOE dmg. Learned Spellcaster seems to improve overall dps by more or less 5% (i think the inteligence related component is not that significant).
If u guys know anything about this please tell me, i'd realy apreciate it.
Here is a quick resume for Wizard Wrath's, Focused Wizardry and Evocation.
Power affected by Wizard Wrath's and Focused Wizardry :
At will:
Chilling Cloud (3rd Hit)
Encounters:
Chill Strike (Mastery)
Conduit of Ice (Mastery and normal)
Repel (Mastery)
Shield
Icy Terrain
Sudden Storm
Steal Time
SoE Avalanche
Dailies:
Ice Storm
Arcane Singularity
Opressive Force
Power (Encounters and Dailies) affected by Evocation :
Encounters:
Chill Strike (Mastery)
Repel (Mastery)
Shield
Icy Terrain
Steal Time
SoE Avalanche
Dailies:
Ice Storm
Opressive Force
For Master of flame:
I have not tested Wizard Wrath's and Focused Wizardry yet.
I only notice that Evocation have no effect on Master of Flame AoE powers:
Scorching burst (Full charge or not)
Fanning the flame (Mastery)
Furious Immolation
It lets me suppose that Master of flame powers are not affected by Wizard Wrath's and Focused Wizardry, but a test is needed to confirm this.
“He raised his staff. There was a roll of thunder. The sunlight was blotted out from the eastern windows; the whole hall became suddenly dark as night. The fire faded to sullen embers. Only Gandalf could be seen, standing white and tall before the blackened hearth.” ― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Two Towers
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited February 2014
Hey guys -
I like the discussion here of feats. My thought is if I take wizards wrath I am absolutely certain that the majority of my abilities are boosted by 9% for 3 ponits, that said if I took leanred spellcaster, for 5 points, everything is boosted some indeterminate amount. If that's 6% - i could either boost everything 6% or as is everything but shard 9%, which is probably more. Even if they are the same for DPS, wizards wrath is 3 points and learned spellcaster is 5 points, so wizards wrath is probably more efficent.
I'm not surprised with the ACT, as FtF does a large amount of damage. I would say my dailies are about 9% of my DPS, depending on the run. The difference is swath - everything that lives more than a few seconds is going to take 6% more damage, and for those of us who are thaum, everything with conduit is going to take 15% more damage. So is that extra debuff worth more than the extra burst? It's hard to know, unless you personally respec, then run with the exact same group the exact same way and see - even then too much varriation :S
One of the difficulties with these builds is that they are close enough to each other and the parsing is so difficult it's hard to evaluate.
And man, 71 million damage? must have been a painful run. Sorry to see that .
And man, 71 million damage? must have been a painful run. Sorry to see that .
Nope. We one shot everything up to the Dracolich. We had to take a few attempts at the Dracolich, a couple people were having some intermittent connection issues.
But we killed everything along the way. We didn't exploit or skip any of the sections, so the damage does pile up
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited February 2014
Still, in a run where we are doing that, 71 mil is a ton XD I think clearing everything to draco, it's not 71M split 5 ways ^^
same thing just happened to me, double lag issues. That happens to everyone.
Thank you for confirming what my hasty testing made me figure out. If you go AoE you can trust your WW and FW, good to know. Evocation yet seems a bit underwhelming...
I am now testing Chilling Presence, instead of Swath. It breaks my heart not having it slotted but i was wondering how good CP could be, so i'll post my findings here when i gather enough data.
Nope. We one shot everything up to the Dracolich. We had to take a few attempts at the Dracolich, a couple people were having some intermittent connection issues.
But we killed everything along the way. We didn't exploit or skip any of the sections, so the damage does pile up
Thanks for confirming what I suspected Iron, CA seems pretty darn good indeed!
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited February 2014
I would highly recommend people at least try out a run using CA. The speed at which you can gain AP is pretty ridiculous and really does offset some of the AP nerfs in recent months.I just don't think the SoD bonuses are good enough to warrant slotting it on anything other than a pure ST fight where CA wouldn't matter.
The only ones that come to mind right now are Fulminorax in MC and Valindra in VT, but both those fights are more about execution and not a straight up DPS race, so I don't think a 6% damage bonus is worth the 3 points. I'd rather just slot Chilling Presence.
And on fights with lots of adds, like the Dracolich, the adds are the difficult part. Damaging the Dracolich is easy. Failing to dodge hands and adds is what wipes the group. Being able to keep things tighter with more Singularities I believe far outweighs a small 6% damage boost.
CA is good but require a good AP generation from the strat and the debuff is only by 9% for Fire's damage. Rimefire do Cold damage but I haven't tested if it dealt increased damage from it.
SoD is good because it's a debuff for the group: it's only 6% but it affect all damages. Also, +24% to smolder damage isn't ridiculous.
With CA slotted, FtF in tab is really interesting but you lost a lot of control.
So what about a combination of CA+SoD ? Do you think it could be interesting ?
It can increase Smolder damage up to 35%, debuffing all targets by 6% (+9% fire resist) and generate huge AP. But Smolder can only be applied by Daily, Scorching Burst and FtF (on tab).
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
With CA slotted, FtF in tab is really interesting but you lost a lot of control.
How do you figure that? If you're talking about CoI on tab, the problem is that Frozen targets break almost instantly in high damage situations, so it's not really a great form of CC. You can still slot CoI, Steal Time and Shard.
With FtF on tab, you're generating a lot more damage, have a reliable application of Smolder (for CA) and the target takes A LOT of damage, killing it much faster. If used on the toughest mob in a group, it really helps melt down that big guy faster. And the faster the more dangerous mobs die, the easier the dungeon is.
And again, I don't think a 6% damage boost when targets are Smoldering is that noticeable, particularly when clearing trash. And if you drop CC, then you're hurting your ability to put Smolder on targets by not getting Smolder off crits. And if targets aren't Smoldering, then SoD is useless. So I think CC is an absolute must, non-debatable for MoF.
The decision comes down to SoC or CA, and with the AP gain on CA, I personally think it's the clear winner for any fight involving adds.
It's a virtuous circle of AP generation. Singularity puts Smolder on everything. And in good groups, a Singularity is going to group up the mobs and result in a lot of dead bad guys, which in turn generates even more AP, which results in a faster cast of the next Singularity. Again, in my CN and VT runs this last week, it wasn't uncommon to have the Singularity end, and be back over 50% AP.
My best was dropping Singularity, doing one rotation of Encounters and then being back at 78% AP.
It's something you have to try in game to believe. The AP generation on the CA/CC combination is just wild.
The AP generation on the CA/SS combination is just wild.
SS? You mean AS (Singularity)?
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chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited February 2014
I guess it depends on how you play. I never slot CA, but even when we are fighting draco with just 2 CW i am getting my dailies too fast and I am forced to hold them to CC properly.
The 6% debuff is nice, as you stack debuffs everything matters.
People wipe from not dodging hands, mostly - if you CWs are good the adds won't be scattered very much or very long.
Therefore if the fight is short, less chance to mess up dodging hands, less chance to wipe
Iron, i haven't seen your character, but if your AP gain isn't great i could see CA making up for that. I do think it's good people are testing features though. Ekso (gosmatic) is doing some testing, i'm sure he'll let you know when he finds out.
Wish i had more more to add right now - keep testing guys
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited February 2014
Chem, this is exactly why my post with the ACT parses had a disclaimer on it. Please go back and re-read it. And instead of taking subtle, elitist digs at me, how about you post some numbers?
Because all I'm really getting from you now is a) you have the best gear and b) you play with the best players. Which doesn't help the general community when it comes to developing robust builds.
Regardless, I'm going to test out a few more things, and hopefully have a more comprehensive MoF build posted this weekend.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
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ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
How do you figure that? If you're talking about CoI on tab, the problem is that Frozen targets break almost instantly in high damage situations, so it's not really a great form of CC. You can still slot CoI, Steal Time and Shard.
With FtF on tab, you're generating a lot more damage, have a reliable application of Smolder (for CA) and the target takes A LOT of damage, killing it much faster. If used on the toughest mob in a group, it really helps melt down that big guy faster. And the faster the more dangerous mobs die, the easier the dungeon is.
And again, I don't think a 6% damage boost when targets are Smoldering is that noticeable, particularly when clearing trash. And if you drop CC, then you're hurting your ability to put Smolder on targets by not getting Smolder off crits. And if targets aren't Smoldering, then SoD is useless. So I think CC is an absolute must, non-debatable for MoF.
The decision comes down to SoC or CA, and with the AP gain on CA, I personally think it's the clear winner for any fight involving adds.
It's a virtuous circle of AP generation. Singularity puts Smolder on everything. And in good groups, a Singularity is going to group up the mobs and result in a lot of dead bad guys, which in turn generates even more AP, which results in a faster cast of the next Singularity. Again, in my CN and VT runs this last week, it wasn't uncommon to have the Singularity end, and be back over 50% AP.
My best was dropping Singularity, doing one rotation of Encounters and then being back at 78% AP.
It's something you have to try in game to believe. The AP generation on the CA/CC combination is just wild.
EDIT: Typo. SS = CC
Thanks for the answers.
So in you opinion, CC is a must-have.
I was thinking of putting CA/CC/SoD in my build and switch but it's more easier to have CP/CA/CC or CP/CC/SoD.
I'm still working on my build.
I would highly recommend people at least try out a run using CA. The speed at which you can gain AP is pretty ridiculous and really does offset some of the AP nerfs in recent months.I just don't think the SoD bonuses are good enough to warrant slotting it on anything other than a pure ST fight where CA wouldn't matter.
The only ones that come to mind right now are Fulminorax in MC and Valindra in VT, but both those fights are more about execution and not a straight up DPS race, so I don't think a 6% damage bonus is worth the 3 points. I'd rather just slot Chilling Presence.
And on fights with lots of adds, like the Dracolich, the adds are the difficult part. Damaging the Dracolich is easy. Failing to dodge hands and adds is what wipes the group. Being able to keep things tighter with more Singularities I believe far outweighs a small 6% damage boost.
Yesterday I decided to test CA on preview server because I don't have it.
You're right, I've been surprised with how fast it recharge my AP.
I think I will respec and change some of my powers.
At least I will take CA to have the choice to use it when I need it.
Thanks
“He raised his staff. There was a roll of thunder. The sunlight was blotted out from the eastern windows; the whole hall became suddenly dark as night. The fire faded to sullen embers. Only Gandalf could be seen, standing white and tall before the blackened hearth.” ― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Two Towers
Yesterday I decided to test CA on preview server because I don't have it.
You're right, I've been surprised with how fast it recharge my AP.
I think I will respec and change some of my powers.
At least I will take CA to have the choice to use it when I need it.
Thanks
Have the issues with chill stacks and smoulder been addressed? I would like to try out an oppressor/MoF build, but if chill and smoulder refuse to play well together then I will hold off on my respec.
Chem, this is exactly why my post with the ACT parses had a disclaimer on it. Please go back and re-read it. And instead of taking subtle, elitist digs at me, how about you post some numbers?
Because all I'm really getting from you now is a) you have the best gear and b) you play with the best players. Which doesn't help the general community when it comes to developing robust builds.
Regardless, I'm going to test out a few more things, and hopefully have a more comprehensive MoF build posted this weekend.
I look forward to it Iron.
Last night I was trying out RoE Tabbed, Shard, Steal Time, and FtF in a regular encounter slot just to see how it works out. I've found that with Singularity applying Smolder to every target it grabs, I can throw a FtF encounter on to one of the stronger add's with much the same effect as a tabbed FtF. It's only really useful in a few boss fights or on much stronger add's (such as Maw's in SP), but it easily and effectively turns an AoE rotation isn't a very strong single-target rotation. So FtF is useful both on and off tab, as long as you keep Combustive Action in your class skills.
Swath of Destruction is falling further and further behind as a rational choice the more I play with CA/CC. I can see SD being useful against the Dracolich, but to be honest Swath seems like a pad damage skill. It doesn't really do any useful damage, it just does damage. Even with Swath Chem seems to only be sitting around 10% damage done with smolder, which just cements my opinion that it isn't worth losing the extra AP gain.
If Chem feels like he needs less AP generation that's his decision, but ignoring such a potent tool in the MoF arsenal seems closed minded. There's a big tendency in Neverwinter for people to say 'I have enough AP gain' without really trying something that gives a huge AP boost.
That's just silly, in my opinion. If you haven't tried it, don't knock it.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
Comments
This would seem to apply to you exactly.
This isn't the thread to argue that point anyway, the OP is a Thaum. Heck, I'm guilty of pointing out renegade's bonuses too so I'll agree to stop hijacking this thread intentionally or not.
If you guys want some illustration on how this build can work (or at least how i play it) you can see this video of a 3-men draco kill
with a Renegade SS with P. Vorp. a Thaum MoF (me on POV) with P. Terr. and a Instigator I.V. GWF.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3iyfuTNdtY
I've done it with Chem as well in a 3 wiz only party and we did it in less than 10 minutes, Thaum MoF ftw
I'd be curious what your feats are, as you're running pretty much exactly the powers I wanted to test out only couldn't fit the build into the given feat points. I'm guessing you don't use Arcane Burst to keep your arcane stacks high and just rely on your arcane spells to fill that role.
And I'm really curious about you're feats choice.
As for feats, i got WM, Toughness, Fight On, Wizards Wrath, Blighting Power and Focused Wizardry, all maxed.
On Thaum tree i got Tempest and Malevolant, Frozen Power Transfer, Transcended, E. Empowerment and Assailing Force.
On Opressor tree i got Bitter Cold.
I use the two last class features since they provide a smolder debuff and improved damage and critical severity and smolder proc.
I rarely use scorching burst but its good heal sometimes (My spec is a bit more tanky than it could be, i just like doing dungeons with less than 5 people, and for tougher fights, that tankiness is needed, still the damage output is realy nice).
He out DPSes me a bit because of bitter cold and transcendent master is a bit more personal DPS, that said, nightmare wizardry is more team DPS - and I am always thinking team first.
We've 3 manned draco together and my SF didn't even go off. No issues whatsoever.
That said, thaum vs. renegade - i think it's more than coincidence that the grand majority of high end CWs go thaum, elemental empowerment and assailing force are so amazing. The best things in renegade tree are crit power and nightmare wizardry.
That said, it is better to play with a 90% spec you like rather than a 100% spec you don't. Gotta play how you want to play.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
The last feat work better with Encounter than At-Will. If the buff/debuff was applied by an encounter instead, it should work a lot better.
@gosmatic : great built. I have nearly the same. I use Learned Spellcaster because of IT and Smolder, even if I'm not so sure if Intel increase Smolder's damage.
Honestly I totally agree with you in a lot of ways, especially on Arcane Burst vs. MM for Arcane stacks. I'd really love to run Scorching Burst and Chilling Cloud, but I just really love the bonus to RoE from Renegade and if you go that deep into the tree you might as well grab it all. I do like magic missile more than CoI though, so meh. I like Arcane Burst enough that I really want it, but I also don't want to lose Nightmare Wizardy if I was Thaum.
I think they made a boneheaded mistake in not changing the end cap abilities based on the new paragons. Only changing some dinky 2nd tier skill is silly. If you can put chaos magic on scorching burst or chilling cloud it would be everything I ever wanted. And TBH Thaum should get the same bonus to FtF as they would get from CoI if they go MoF.
That would go a long way to making the different tree's unique, and the paragons themselves.
If u guys know anything about this please tell me, i'd realy apreciate it.
But we still don't know how the intel bonus work exactly with each spell. Some can have a big coef while other won't.
As MoF, my problem came from that a big part aren't AOE : Icy terrain and Smolder.
On heavy add fight, Icy Terrain is the primary source of Smolder and Smolder is equal to 10%+ of our damage. So personnaly, I prefer a feat that increase less but all our spell.
DISCLAIMER: I cleared CN twice this weekend, and VT multiple times. A word about the people I play with, as a reference. This is us. We're not hardcore gamers. We don't judge by GS and we'll take anyone who wants to go anywhere. We have some really good players in the community, but I want to avoid turning this discussion into who's a better player at what. I'll put up some screenshots of my parses as a reference, but let's all be realistic here. The best of the best can clear any content with any build, so this isn't about discussing "the best of the best". This is about theorycrafting more around the MoF to prove viability for all content.
So here's the ACT from the first Dracolich kill, which was my first time fighting him as a MoF. I was using the standard Thaum build. FtF on tab, CoI, Steal Time and Shard. CC at will. CC and CA as features. I was using a GPF enchant.
The group was 2 SS CW's, GWF and a DC:
The most interesting thing about this parse is the amount of damage FtF was responsible for on Ms. Draco.
FtF has multiple components. Fanning the Flame, Gathering Flame, Rimfire, Smolder and Final Flame are all relevant.
Adding those up, we see that FtF contributed to 22% of the total damage done to just the Dracolich, which I thought was pretty impressive. It was also extremely easy to use. The combination of CC and CA generated a lot of AP and allowed me to fire off singularities at least 50% faster than the other CW's, if not more. That kept smolder on all the mobs, and allowed Gathering Flame to do it's thing.
Which leads to another interesting screenshot:
That's the total damage done for myself during CN (which also put me on top of the damage done, as well):
Again, I was running CC and CA. Note that Singularity accounted for 12% (2nd behind Shardsplosion) for total damage. I think that speaks to how powerful the AP gain is from the combination of CC and CA.
And more Singularities means the mobs stay pulled together more often, which means more overall DPS for the group. In my mind, the extra control and grouping outweighs the 6% damage boost from SoD.
Total damage done by Rimfire/Smolder was 11%, so it's a toss up on the extra 24% damage there. From parsing other runs this weekend, that ~10% seems pretty consistent. In my humble opinion, I think the AP gain and additional Singularities was much more beneficial to the group than a small bump in damage.
What this is leading me to believe is that the MoF paragon path, while being less capable of big burst damage numbers, is more than capable of matching a SS mage's total damage. MoF seems to pull even to a head in longer fights, and generate significantly more AP, allowing for faster daily use. FtF is starting to stand out as a really hard target melter. Given all the components of FtF, the sheer damage potential on a single mob surrounded by adds shouldn't be discounted.
And with the last few patches fixing the AP gains on some of our spells and feats, I also wouldn't discount the improved AP gain. I think a lot of CW's around here were disappointed by the reduction in our ability to rapidly fire off Singularity's after the fixes, but MoF puts that back on the table.
Right now, I'm experimenting with a MoF Renegade build. I'm trying to keep things interesting and fresh by removing CoI from the mix, and I'll let you know how that testing goes.
Here is a quick resume for Wizard Wrath's, Focused Wizardry and Evocation.
Power affected by Wizard Wrath's and Focused Wizardry :
At will:
Chilling Cloud (3rd Hit)
Encounters:
Chill Strike (Mastery)
Conduit of Ice (Mastery and normal)
Repel (Mastery)
Shield
Icy Terrain
Sudden Storm
Steal Time
SoE Avalanche
Dailies:
Ice Storm
Arcane Singularity
Opressive Force
Power (Encounters and Dailies) affected by Evocation :
Encounters:
Chill Strike (Mastery)
Repel (Mastery)
Shield
Icy Terrain
Steal Time
SoE Avalanche
Dailies:
Ice Storm
Opressive Force
For Master of flame:
I have not tested Wizard Wrath's and Focused Wizardry yet.
I only notice that Evocation have no effect on Master of Flame AoE powers:
Scorching burst (Full charge or not)
Fanning the flame (Mastery)
Furious Immolation
It lets me suppose that Master of flame powers are not affected by Wizard Wrath's and Focused Wizardry, but a test is needed to confirm this.
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Two Towers
I like the discussion here of feats. My thought is if I take wizards wrath I am absolutely certain that the majority of my abilities are boosted by 9% for 3 ponits, that said if I took leanred spellcaster, for 5 points, everything is boosted some indeterminate amount. If that's 6% - i could either boost everything 6% or as is everything but shard 9%, which is probably more. Even if they are the same for DPS, wizards wrath is 3 points and learned spellcaster is 5 points, so wizards wrath is probably more efficent.
I'm not surprised with the ACT, as FtF does a large amount of damage. I would say my dailies are about 9% of my DPS, depending on the run. The difference is swath - everything that lives more than a few seconds is going to take 6% more damage, and for those of us who are thaum, everything with conduit is going to take 15% more damage. So is that extra debuff worth more than the extra burst? It's hard to know, unless you personally respec, then run with the exact same group the exact same way and see - even then too much varriation :S
One of the difficulties with these builds is that they are close enough to each other and the parsing is so difficult it's hard to evaluate.
And man, 71 million damage? must have been a painful run. Sorry to see that
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Nope. We one shot everything up to the Dracolich. We had to take a few attempts at the Dracolich, a couple people were having some intermittent connection issues.
But we killed everything along the way. We didn't exploit or skip any of the sections, so the damage does pile up
same thing just happened to me, double lag issues. That happens to everyone.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
I am now testing Chilling Presence, instead of Swath. It breaks my heart not having it slotted but i was wondering how good CP could be, so i'll post my findings here when i gather enough data.
Thanks for confirming what I suspected Iron, CA seems pretty darn good indeed!
The only ones that come to mind right now are Fulminorax in MC and Valindra in VT, but both those fights are more about execution and not a straight up DPS race, so I don't think a 6% damage bonus is worth the 3 points. I'd rather just slot Chilling Presence.
And on fights with lots of adds, like the Dracolich, the adds are the difficult part. Damaging the Dracolich is easy. Failing to dodge hands and adds is what wipes the group. Being able to keep things tighter with more Singularities I believe far outweighs a small 6% damage boost.
SoD is good because it's a debuff for the group: it's only 6% but it affect all damages. Also, +24% to smolder damage isn't ridiculous.
With CA slotted, FtF in tab is really interesting but you lost a lot of control.
So what about a combination of CA+SoD ? Do you think it could be interesting ?
It can increase Smolder damage up to 35%, debuffing all targets by 6% (+9% fire resist) and generate huge AP. But Smolder can only be applied by Daily, Scorching Burst and FtF (on tab).
How do you figure that? If you're talking about CoI on tab, the problem is that Frozen targets break almost instantly in high damage situations, so it's not really a great form of CC. You can still slot CoI, Steal Time and Shard.
With FtF on tab, you're generating a lot more damage, have a reliable application of Smolder (for CA) and the target takes A LOT of damage, killing it much faster. If used on the toughest mob in a group, it really helps melt down that big guy faster. And the faster the more dangerous mobs die, the easier the dungeon is.
And again, I don't think a 6% damage boost when targets are Smoldering is that noticeable, particularly when clearing trash. And if you drop CC, then you're hurting your ability to put Smolder on targets by not getting Smolder off crits. And if targets aren't Smoldering, then SoD is useless. So I think CC is an absolute must, non-debatable for MoF.
The decision comes down to SoC or CA, and with the AP gain on CA, I personally think it's the clear winner for any fight involving adds.
It's a virtuous circle of AP generation. Singularity puts Smolder on everything. And in good groups, a Singularity is going to group up the mobs and result in a lot of dead bad guys, which in turn generates even more AP, which results in a faster cast of the next Singularity. Again, in my CN and VT runs this last week, it wasn't uncommon to have the Singularity end, and be back over 50% AP.
My best was dropping Singularity, doing one rotation of Encounters and then being back at 78% AP.
It's something you have to try in game to believe. The AP generation on the CA/CC combination is just wild.
EDIT: Typo. SS = CC
The 6% debuff is nice, as you stack debuffs everything matters.
People wipe from not dodging hands, mostly - if you CWs are good the adds won't be scattered very much or very long.
Therefore if the fight is short, less chance to mess up dodging hands, less chance to wipe
Iron, i haven't seen your character, but if your AP gain isn't great i could see CA making up for that. I do think it's good people are testing features though. Ekso (gosmatic) is doing some testing, i'm sure he'll let you know when he finds out.
Wish i had more more to add right now - keep testing guys
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Because all I'm really getting from you now is a) you have the best gear and b) you play with the best players. Which doesn't help the general community when it comes to developing robust builds.
Regardless, I'm going to test out a few more things, and hopefully have a more comprehensive MoF build posted this weekend.
Sorry, meant to say CA/CC. Too many abbreviations
Critical Conflagration and Combustive Action.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47976441/BL%20Draco%20kill%202014-1-20.Log
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47976441/CN%20Draco%202014-1-23-1.Log
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https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47976441/CN%20Draco%202014-2-9-3.Log
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https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47976441/CN%20Draco%202014-2-13-3.Log
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https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47976441/CN%20Draco%202014-2-13-5.Log
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47976441/CN%20draco%20KILL%202014-1-15-3.Log
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https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47976441/CN%20Draco%20KILL%202013-1-17-3.Log
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47976441/CN%20Draco%20KILL%202014-1-14-2.Log
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https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47976441/CN%20Draco%20KILL%202014-1-16-1.Log
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47976441/CN%20Draco%20KILL%202014-1-16-2.Log
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https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47976441/CN%20Draco%20KILL%202014-1-19-1.Log
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https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47976441/CN%20Draco%20KILL%202014-1-21-1.Log
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https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47976441/CN%20Draco%20KILL%202014-1-25-2.Log
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https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47976441/CN%20Draco%20KILL%202014-2-4-1.Log
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47976441/CN%20Draco%20KILL%202014-2-4-3.Log
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47976441/CN%20Draco%20with%20PUG%203.Log
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47976441/CombatlogCN3CWDonNithMe%203rd%20run%20final.Log
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47976441/CombatlogCN3CWDonNithMe%20final.Log
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47976441/Draco%202014-2-9-1.Log
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/47976441/Draco%20with%20PUG%202.Log
I haven't been logging recently, but i'll log more often for you.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Thanks for the answers.
So in you opinion, CC is a must-have.
I was thinking of putting CA/CC/SoD in my build and switch but it's more easier to have CP/CA/CC or CP/CC/SoD.
I'm still working on my build.
Yesterday I decided to test CA on preview server because I don't have it.
You're right, I've been surprised with how fast it recharge my AP.
I think I will respec and change some of my powers.
At least I will take CA to have the choice to use it when I need it.
Thanks
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Two Towers
Have the issues with chill stacks and smoulder been addressed? I would like to try out an oppressor/MoF build, but if chill and smoulder refuse to play well together then I will hold off on my respec.
I look forward to it Iron.
Last night I was trying out RoE Tabbed, Shard, Steal Time, and FtF in a regular encounter slot just to see how it works out. I've found that with Singularity applying Smolder to every target it grabs, I can throw a FtF encounter on to one of the stronger add's with much the same effect as a tabbed FtF. It's only really useful in a few boss fights or on much stronger add's (such as Maw's in SP), but it easily and effectively turns an AoE rotation isn't a very strong single-target rotation. So FtF is useful both on and off tab, as long as you keep Combustive Action in your class skills.
Swath of Destruction is falling further and further behind as a rational choice the more I play with CA/CC. I can see SD being useful against the Dracolich, but to be honest Swath seems like a pad damage skill. It doesn't really do any useful damage, it just does damage. Even with Swath Chem seems to only be sitting around 10% damage done with smolder, which just cements my opinion that it isn't worth losing the extra AP gain.
If Chem feels like he needs less AP generation that's his decision, but ignoring such a potent tool in the MoF arsenal seems closed minded. There's a big tendency in Neverwinter for people to say 'I have enough AP gain' without really trying something that gives a huge AP boost.
That's just silly, in my opinion. If you haven't tried it, don't knock it.