chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited February 2014
Personally, I'm not respecting from thaum, because I spend most of my time farming cn.
What I have seen from spell storm is that renegades perform better on the clear and worse on Draco, assuming similar gear.
What I've seen on spell storms is also that plaguefire and terror are better for the party than vorpal, though I have seen some as Cws with totally insane dps, but they were 17.8k glass cannons.
As for my build, it's very much a team first kind of thing, the control is heavy and the debuff is excellent so you set up your team to win. Those smolder ticks add up to a ton too.
As for the renegade bar, the concern with FTf on tap, especially paired with enfeebled is a lack of control, but for dailies it is enough. I have heard of MoF renegades doing this, and what I've heard is it is good. There are just so few MoF renegades out there
I assume the target cap is 5 or 8 but I am uncertain. Furious immolation is 8.
Nightmare wizardry is great, I think it is one of the best cw feats. I make sure to take it.
As for builds, that is why shadow weaver is best for MoF. The hv bonus is amazing too, so it's optimal to pair a MoF with a spell storm and use both. It seems this is better than two of the same.
I'd also like to see some alternative MoF builds, but it think this the only one up here? Any other high end Cws using MoF?
Just wanted to point out that as a MoF, Icy Terrain can proc Smoulder and instantly convert and refresh it on an infinite number of targets. This brings Icy Terrain into a 'must slot' skill for MoF's. When it crits, it is insane damage while debuffing/buffing damage and it really takes advantage of no target cap. It works much, much better than the RoE setup until you get to bosses, where I slot RoE on tab and put FtF on a regular slot. This puts 5 DoT on the boss, which can stack up to pretty darn good damage single target.
RoE(TAB)+Smolder+Icy Terrain+FtF+EF. The best part is that when you pair this with decent life steal, as everyone probably already does, it provides a surprisingly strong heal over time effect that lets you heal up very quickly while kiting. (Shadow Weaver also helps with that.)
Also I was totally wrong on crit severity cap. You can get a 173% crit severity with p.vorpal and shadow weaver set.
This would also clearly not be very helpful on the Dracolich, just noting it for other fights. MoF might be the best single-target mage you can make. Insaneo single-target debuff/DoT.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
0
chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited February 2014
I see to do ok in pvp.
Icy is amazing in Draco. However, that bar might be nice to try out, but single target you gotta get close... I'd have to think of a fight where that's good.
Icy is amazing in Draco. However, that bar might be nice to try out, but single target you gotta get close... I'd have to think of a fight where that's good.
Not many. Frozen Heart last boss it's pretty good, but otherwise not so much
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
SS does burst. SS thaum is highest spec currently seen as no one is experimenting with MoF + MoF bug.
We get that.
I'm sorry to denied you here. You can find multiple MoF report about gameplay and test.
MoF bug is very well documented (check the 2014 buglist post) :
>> FI never crit, like MoC.
>> Smolder's damage is delayed to the end of the effect that create it. This bug only have an impact on short living mob.
>> Rimefire's damage is delayed to the end of the chill effect on the target. this bug is problematic only if used with Frost-based encounter (Icy Terrain with CS or CoI on tab, and Oppressor). If the rotation let chll drop of the target regularly, then it's the same problem than with Smolder.
What we still don't know :
>> Number of minion that can share smolder damage on the target by FtF. I haven't found how to test it but from experience I think it's at least 5. But it's a really powerful spell.
>> If Rimefire is considered as Fire's damage for Combustive Action's debuff and if they are increased by Swatch of Destruction, like Smolder. (They should in both case).
Maybe, it should be add to the CW bug list as a "clarification needed".
And I'm really curious to see what could be Dev replies about all of it.
What I was saying is that due to the bugs (you pointed them out here for those who didn't know XD) most CWs aren't playing MoF. As an extension of this issue, most people think MoF sucks, because thaum SS doesn't have to deal with the bugs, thus better, etc, etc.
TL;DR: I'm saying due to the bugs that do exist, people aren't playing it, not that there are no bugs.
If you look closely, MoF's DPS isn't this low. It's even very good on some fight. Only because of the DoT on add.
After seeing why they fix MoC (for PvP reason, not Valindra's exploit), I think they think that it's not urgent because it's actually fine as it is, even if it's bugged.
If the Rimefire issue was fixed, it'd completely change the game for MoF.
Oppressor, which is all about chill, has perpetual chill on stuff. This means perpetual rimefire. A perpetual dot that causes the thing to fall down even faster. Oppressor can do this to multiple things, throw FtF in there and you are talking making stuff cry in burnafication.
The problem with all of that is that the DoT is broken. As Nathyiel pointed out, it simply doesn't work. So by extension, Oppressor doesn't work very well with MoF. It can, but not well. That'd be why I actually respec'd to renegade last night.
I was able to do some 1v1 PVP after my team quit on me.. First fight against someone in better gear, we got a double KO. While they (ss mage) killed me first, they immediately dropped after due to the burn. Which is pretty good considering I was still learning the new routine. The rest of the 1v1s I'd manage to bring them to half on a good fight (GF mud stomped me though) but I didn't quite have it down. It'll probably take me a few days practice to get it there.
For Oppressor PvE, I also see some potential "problem".
In SpellStorm, Chilling Control give a 50% chance to Chill at Sudden Storm witch is an AOE spell.
In MoF, Twisting Immolation give to FI a better control and a longer debuff for Combustive Action.
1- It give MoF less chill capability. As we have only 2 possible setup : COI on tab + IT or CS on tab + IT. Where in StormSpell, it could be Repel or Shard on tab, because SS can also add Chill.
2- It force the use of Combustive Action. So it reduce the choice at Critical Conflagration OR Chilling Presence. Not both at the same time. (And it's only if it work with Rimefire).
I won't say it's bad because it can lead to some interesting gameplay.
Last question : is Smolder/Rimefire's damage is affected by Intelligence's damage bonus. I ask because of Learned Spellcaster. If it's the case, this feat would be an obvious choice as MoF.
edit>>
And there's also the fact that as oppressor even if you add smolder, it's changed into Rimefire directly result in having nearly no Smolder on the target. Nerfing damage even more.
Actually, Rimefire is directly equal to Smolder. Rimefire does the same damage as smolder, it simply stays active as long as there is a chill effect.
As for the feat aspect, I wouldn't take that particular effect either way. an earlier entry in the oppressor tree helps more (at work so I can't give specifics, sorry!) It's just like I don't use ice storm, just because oppressor cap adds to it.
My general set for Oppressor is Shard, IT on tab, ST, EF. I dislike CoI, so don't use it, but if it came down to it, I would use CoI for PVE. As Crit and swath are just that much superior to combustive, I'd still run with those.
I'm actually still rather impressed with Controlling Action. Something about this class skill tells me it's supposed to be on my bar. In testing it last night in ToS it seems to give that 3% AP even if you knock the add off a cliff or into a fire, and the end boss eating her kiddos also seems to return AP. In a fight where I usually don't bother to burn the add's, it became very profitable in AP to slot CA/SD and spam Oppressive Force when Blademasters got thick.
The same idea has worked pretty amazingly in every dungeon where the standard strategy is to run and knock add's into things. Damage is utterly unimportant in such situations, and the added AP is noticeable.
The debuff to fire damage off CA might even work into a DPS rotation, but really DPS seems secondary with class skills that focus on DoT and AP generation. Regardless, either way my damage dropped pretty significantly without Critical Combustion. It's possible that's just from knocking more add's than usual, but it's hard to say.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
If we studies the class feature as oppressor in PvE, we can see that:
>> Chilling Presence : increase damage between 3% and 18% par Chill stack.
>> Combustive Action : increase target's Fire damage receive by 9% but depend on Daily but Furious Immolation can't be used every 5s. It require FtF on tab for maximise the debuff.
>> Critical Conflagration : increase Crit Severity by 15% (~7.5% crit damage increase) and make smolder easier to apply.
>> Swatch of Destruction : increase target's damage receive by 6% and increase smolder damage by 24%
case 1 : CP + CC
Smolder is put by cold spell and you need IT + CoI on tab to maximise Chill uptime on targets. case 2 : CP + SD Smolder is put with Scorching burst and you need IT + CoI on tab to maximise Chill uptime on targets.
case 3 : CC + SD
Smolder is put by cold or arcane spell. You don't need to keep obligatory keep hight stack of chill on target.
For max damage, the best will be CP+SD as you keep high chill stack on target and smolder will have the best uptime as it require a specific cast from At-Will or FtF on tab.
For a versatile usage, the best is CC+SD.
For max control, CO+CC is the best as you can maximise chill stacking but don't increase damage for the group. For PvP ?
If Rimefire is debugged, I really want to test it more seriously.
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited February 2014
Chem, I'm with you on this. I just switched over to MoF yesterday to try something new, and I think there's a lot of good stuff here.
Only had time to do a couple successful VT runs before the snowstorm knocked out my internet, but I was very pleased with it. Despite the chill bug, I still did around the same amount of damage total I normally do in a VT run (and topped the chart again, versus two other very well geared GWF's and another CW). Single target damage was actually A LOT higher versus Valindra (almost 1600 DPS) if I'm to believe my ACT, but I need to do more runs to confirm. However, it was the first time my guild took her down with only one coffin dance in Phase 3, and burned her to zero before the next coffins popped.
So anyway, it was fun, and I'd love to start theorycrafting a bit more with you about this build. We all know how to maximize damage as a SS CW, that's boring now. Let's optimize the MoF
As far as the class features, it does seem like all three have their place.
Clearing the trash in VT I was running with CC and CA, and left SoD off. The reason I did this is smolder damage doesn't seem to be a huge part of the overall equation, maybe 5-10%, so 24% extra damage there isn't much at all. I think the 6% boost to damage taken is great, but here's the thoughts on the other two.
CA seemed really good for trash. I could use OF or Sing to put Smolder on a bunch of targets, then get 3% AP as they died, which create a sort of virtuous circle as I was clearing trash. I could cast my daily a lot more, which put smolder on a lot of targets very quickly, which in turn generated even more AP. I felt like I was throwing out dailies at least twice as fast as the other CW (who I regularly run with and is a very good/well geared player).
CC seems great, but given that I was only running at about a 38% crit chance, is the extra 15% Severity really worth it? And how necessary are the crits for spreading smolder, especially if you're use CC and FtF? That's my question I need to answer.
For Valindra, CA didn't make any sense, since no adds were blowing up, so CC and SoD made a more sense. My ST powers were CoI in tab, FtF, Enfeeble and Chill Strike. I found that parsing on training dummies, when you consider the HV buff being added by CS, both CoI and CS outperformed Icey Rays considerably, hence I took Icey Rays out of the rotation.
The other question mark for me is the Feat:Drifting Embers. Initially, it doesn't seem great, but if you consider a boss fight where you'll have FtF on, and a lot of adds, it would seem like with all the hits the mob would take, Drifting Embers would really help spread and keep smolder on all the adds around the boss, which would in turn significantly up the damage the boss would take from the feedback damage from smolder.
Anyway, those are my thoughts after being a MoF for about 12 hours.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
0
chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited February 2014
As for class features, CC is really awesome. The 15% severity is very nice (think of it as a free lesser vorpal, which does make a difference), but on crit you trigger smolder. I have a 36% crit chance, which pratically means i am actually critting most things relatively quickly, and everything has a DoT on it after a few seconds. Through a long fight, smolder runs about 10% of my DPS, and I am not really using scorching burst or fanning the flames. This frees up time to cast encounters and use a chilling cloud rotation to utilize FPT.
I hear people really like controlling action. It's possible if your wisdom is low, or your recovery is low, or you don't have crit power, then it would make sense. Personally i hav 18 wis, about 3800 recovery, and critical power, so I have basically no issues with AP gain. I tested it though, and seems that fanning the flame doesn't generate that much AP (i switched out terrian, which generates tons of AP), so maybe it makes sense. I would suggest testing for you and your build, as I think "enough" AP gain is really nice.
I don't put FTF on tab because I'm thaum and conduit is simply too good, however people who have tried have gotten good results.
My thought on an interesting build was go renegade, but FtF on tab, take drifting embers, and test. I just can't bring myself to remove critical conflaguration - it is so good, but i would love to hear your tests.
What i've noticed and heard from very high DPS CWs and very high DPS parties is that nothing lives long enough to see the MoF sustained damage - and i have certainly seen this happen to me occasionally. That said, those runs are very smooth and fast and the dracolich dies quickly without incident.
The since thing about SotD, is that it's 6% more damage to everyone - which is huge in a long fight. I likewise think this is an excellent ability, so I keep it on 100%
I think everyone should test based on their own spec/gear and see what happens. It's important to use ACT here so we can see not only how are we performing, but how we are effecting our teammates. Since it is a team game, we must look at team performance... - oops I forgot that caring about others makes me bad
mod note: this thread has been cleaned. folks, if you don't like or agree to someone's build, you have to be respectful and constructive in your feedback. personal attacks also include attacking other people's opinions and doing so is a violation of the forum rules.
do not reply to this mod note. instead, send a PM if you'd like to discuss it.
Chem, I'm with you on this. I just switched over to MoF yesterday to try something new, and I think there's a lot of good stuff here.
Only had time to do a couple successful VT runs before the snowstorm knocked out my internet, but I was very pleased with it. Despite the chill bug, I still did around the same amount of damage total I normally do in a VT run (and topped the chart again, versus two other very well geared GWF's and another CW). Single target damage was actually A LOT higher versus Valindra (almost 1600 DPS) if I'm to believe my ACT, but I need to do more runs to confirm. However, it was the first time my guild took her down with only one coffin dance in Phase 3, and burned her to zero before the next coffins popped.
So anyway, it was fun, and I'd love to start theorycrafting a bit more with you about this build. We all know how to maximize damage as a SS CW, that's boring now. Let's optimize the MoF
As far as the class features, it does seem like all three have their place.
Clearing the trash in VT I was running with CC and CA, and left SoD off. The reason I did this is smolder damage doesn't seem to be a huge part of the overall equation, maybe 5-10%, so 24% extra damage there isn't much at all. I think the 6% boost to damage taken is great, but here's the thoughts on the other two.
CA seemed really good for trash. I could use OF or Sing to put Smolder on a bunch of targets, then get 3% AP as they died, which create a sort of virtuous circle as I was clearing trash. I could cast my daily a lot more, which put smolder on a lot of targets very quickly, which in turn generated even more AP. I felt like I was throwing out dailies at least twice as fast as the other CW (who I regularly run with and is a very good/well geared player).
This is about my experience as well, although CA's usefulness tapers off when fighting multiple stronger add's given that they don't die very quickly. It really shines in fights where you know you'll be killing multiple add's very quickly. Spellplague, most of Frozen Heart, and ToS it seems to do pretty well. Heck, even for most of CN if you don't mind the DPS loss.
CC seems great, but given that I was only running at about a 38% crit chance, is the extra 15% Severity really worth it? And how necessary are the crits for spreading smolder, especially if you're use CC and FtF? That's my question I need to answer.
Honestly the extra critical severity is kind of a backseat to it adding Smolder on any target you crit. Scorching Burst add's Smolder pretty quickly, but for me CA and CC are interchangeable since both of them add smolder it's just a difference in how they do so. The 5%(?) added damage from Swath of Destruction and the added Smolder damage is always useful while CA/CC are both useful but not as routinely as SD IMO.
Personally I like to slot CC when I know there are a metric ton of add's. A single critical Icy Terrain has uncapped targets, add's chill & smolder, and with Rimefire the DoT is going to tick a lot longer and be an automatic critical hit as well for smolder/rimefire. In looking at my parses, Icy Terrain by itself skews my overall critical rate by something like 10-20% more than my actual crit rate.
For Valindra, CA didn't make any sense, since no adds were blowing up, so CC and SoD made a more sense. My ST powers were CoI in tab, FtF, Enfeeble and Chill Strike. I found that parsing on training dummies, when you consider the HV buff being added by CS, both CoI and CS outperformed Icey Rays considerably, hence I took Icey Rays out of the rotation.
For single target I actually prefer RoE on Tab, FtF, EF, and CoI/CS. I'm a Renegade though, so the extra 20% damage on Ray is probably the deciding factor. RoE can do some pretty sick damage all on it's own, one of the best ST attacks a mage gets.
The other question mark for me is the Feat:Drifting Embers. Initially, it doesn't seem great, but if you consider a boss fight where you'll have FtF on, and a lot of adds, it would seem like with all the hits the mob would take, Drifting Embers would really help spread and keep smolder on all the adds around the boss, which would in turn significantly up the damage the boss would take from the feedback damage from smolder.
I tried Drifting Embers and TBH the proc rate just doesn't seem high enough considering it only add's Smolder to one target at a time and only when FtF is ticking, which is only about a 4 second window. Given the relative ease of adding Smolder with other options, such as Scorching Burst, it just doesn't seem worth the 5 points. Arcane Burst, on the other hand, add's Arcane stacks fairly reliably. Often 2+ stacks per cast on clustered mobs. If I had to choose one, AB wins hands down in my book. As a Thaum, it's probably not as attractive as picking up Nightmare Wizardry instead.
Anyway, those are my thoughts after being a MoF for about 12 hours.
Keep it coming!
I hear people really like controlling action. It's possible if your wisdom is low, or your recovery is low, or you don't have crit power, then it would make sense. Personally i hav 18 wis, about 3800 recovery, and critical power, so I have basically no issues with AP gain. I tested it though, and seems that fanning the flame doesn't generate that much AP (i switched out terrian, which generates tons of AP), so maybe it makes sense. I would suggest testing for you and your build, as I think "enough" AP gain is really nice.
The thing is that adding CA on top of your 'enough' AP gain will then generate 'more AP than you know what to do with'. You can almost spam dailies if things are dying consistently. Certainly not always useful, but when it is boy howdy is it useful. I ran ToS probably 10 times over the last few days and the ease of running it has gone up considerably on the last boss with CA&CC slotted and spamming Oppressive Force.
My current favorite is using CA/SD, throwing a Singularity, spamming one or two Scorching Bursts, then tossing a tabbed FtF onto something I really don't like in the middle of it. FtF is indeed terrible AP, but if they all die within the next 5 seconds or so that's a maximum of 45% AP gained. In other words, you directly profit in AP from a Spellstorm Thaums/GWF's murder spree. (3% AP per kill, 15 target cap on Sing.)
So basically if your team is full of OP murderfaces I'd say CA&CC. If your team is not full of murder machines CC&SD. This is because SD is the most useful when things die the slowest.
The uncapped target limit on Icy Terrain is almost the only reason I use CC, as it's otherwise a fairly lackluster class feature given that a single crit is only going to apply smolder to 5 targets. I.E. The same number as Scorching Burst add's by default.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
0
chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited February 2014
Well, some good thoughts above.
Think about the advantage of CC - you don't have to use scorching burst in your rotation, instead you can use that time your powers are on cooldown to just Chilling Cloud (careful not to use CC twice) to proc FPT - or since you are renegade, magic missile to proc chaos magic. There is only so much time inbetween encounters and it is difficult to get the bonus from both at wills effectively.
Another thing, while scorching burst adds to 5 targets and immolation to 8, every time shard crits - 15 smolders, every steal time - 5 more, every conduit - 5 more, every icy terrian crit, god knows how much. Then the smolder adds up.
Looking at ACT from our last draco fight, the smolders added up to a total of 12% of my DPS, and the crit severity is (i'm guessing here) around 5% more DPS - so this one class feature is responsible for 17% DPS - which is _huge_. If I am going to give that up, I must be getting a whole lot back in return.
About the AP gain though, with 3 CWs, often times they can use sing and i can use immolation. With two CWs, we really don't have AP problems either. I think critical power is a huge part of that, and an obvious choice (at wills are 6% of dps so reapers touch doesn't seem practical).
So I am thinking CA might be good if i am struggling with AP gain - maybe if i 1 CW CN? XD but as it stands i didn't spec into it. I'm actually considering switching to the book and dropping recovery, because I am getting plenty of AP.
That said, I think feats, gear, encounters, and playstyle have a lot to do with AP generation. That's why i suggest you must test yourself, as how you wiz will really effect how long it takes to get sing up.
Looking at my log, it seems i use a daily about once every 30 seconds, and I am often holding them for timing in my rotations and teammates rotations so if I was spamming i could go even faster. I was using immolation that round because the adds were dying too fast for Sing
Think about the advantage of CC - you don't have to use scorching burst in your rotation, instead you can use that time your powers are on cooldown to just Chilling Cloud (careful not to use CC twice) to proc FPT - or since you are renegade, magic missile to proc chaos magic. There is only so much time inbetween encounters and it is difficult to get the bonus from both at wills effectively.
This is very true, I wanted to try a Thaum MoF with the Arcane Burst feat with Scorching Burst and Chilling Cloud as at-wills, but frankly there just aren't enough feat points to get what I wanted to try it out. If you really wanted to get something to apply Smolder that wasn't Scorching Burst, I think CA is the overall easier way to do so on the highest number of add's in one go. I'm not a thaumaturge though, so there will be a different optimal. Chilling Cloud doesn't really do anything for a Renegade so I spec'ed out of it completely and can not test with it =(
Another thing, while scorching burst adds to 5 targets and immolation to 8, every time shard crits - 15 smolders, every steal time - 5 more, every conduit - 5 more, every icy terrian crit, god knows how much. Then the smolder adds up.
Also true, honestly I use Scorching Burst to add a lot of Arcane stacks very quickly. The smolder it add's is just bonus to me. It's up-front damage is way more than smolder either way.
Looking at ACT from our last draco fight, the smolders added up to a total of 12% of my DPS, and the crit severity is (i'm guessing here) around 5% more DPS - so this one class feature is responsible for 17% DPS - which is _huge_. If I am going to give that up, I must be getting a whole lot back in return.
Yup, it's unquestionable that CC is very, very useful for a MoF. When I run Combustive Action i'm usually running it with Critical Conflagration as the goal isn't to do damage with smolder, but to profit in AP from targets that die with smolder on them.
As you say, Smolder itself really doesn't do that impressive of damage by itself in most situations. The 6% or so in added damage to the team may or may not be more useful than 3% of your AP bar per kill. For a renegade I find that throwing more OF/AS does a pretty goodly amount of damage in it's own right, probably more than 6% team-wide buffs. More damage or not, having my 'oh $h1t' button up more often isn't a bad thing. It's nice to have the option anyway.
About the AP gain though, with 3 CWs, often times they can use sing and i can use immolation. With two CWs, we really don't have AP problems either. I think critical power is a huge part of that, and an obvious choice (at wills are 6% of dps so reapers touch doesn't seem practical).
Immolation is pretty junk to me. If it could crit, and if it hit 15 targets, it would be worthwhile but as it is now it's worse than using either OF or AS in both damage and control. Immolation add's smolder to 8 targets out of the box, whereas with CA Singularity add's smolder to 15 targets and OF applies smolder to a functionally infinite numbers of add's. This is in addition to it adding an 8%(?) fire debuff to every target, making Oppressive Force arguably the best Daily power to use for MoF in almost any situation. Especially if you are running Scorching Burst, which I am.
So I am thinking CA might be good if i am struggling with AP gain - maybe if i 1 CW CN? XD but as it stands i didn't spec into it. I'm actually considering switching to the book and dropping recovery, because I am getting plenty of AP.
That said, I think feats, gear, encounters, and playstyle have a lot to do with AP generation. That's why i suggest you must test yourself, as how you wiz will really effect how long it takes to get sing up.
Looking at my log, it seems i use a daily about once every 30 seconds, and I am often holding them for timing in my rotations and teammates rotations so if I was spamming i could go even faster. I was using immolation that round because the adds were dying too fast for Sing
All true statements, build for your playstyle ^_^ If add's are dying too fast for Sing to gather them, throw OF instead for instant AP and a bonus to fire damage. In such a situation, with add's dying so quickly, I would not be at all surprised if you could chain Oppressive Force's stun with the CA class skill. I'd be curious to try, either way. It's counter-intuitive to spam Dailies after playing a spellstorm for so long, but really it seems to work pretty well.
I need to check and see if the bonus fire damage off CA applies to smolder. That would really bring it further ahead to me.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited February 2014
My design goal for MoF is this: I really think Master of Flame can make a much more impressive "boss killer" spec than Spellstorm Mage.
Again, from testing on dummies on the preview server, I parsed about 1600 DPS higher with my MoF build over my current SS, single target. And that was without using CoI on tab, which I think will parse out more damage than EF on tab. Since there's no way to isolate a single dummy by itself, I didn't want the AOE from CoI affecting the parse.
Anyway, I think the gem here is Fan the Flames. Since the target of FtF takes more damage from Smolder targets AND damage when Smolder targets die near the target, I thought the spec would be ideal for most of the boss fights, like ToS, where you have a big boss swimming in adds. Unfortunately, I won't be able to run some actual tests with parses until my internet gets back on track
But like I said, going through VT yesterday, the first boss melted much faster than I was use to, and we had seemed to be burning Valindra down much faster. Unfortunately, I didn't think to set up ACT to parse out the damage.
But in boss fights with lots of adds, I think FtF, probably tabbed with CC and CA is going to be magical.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
0
uurbsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 449Bounty Hunter
edited February 2014
I started using my MoF-Thaumaturge build yesterday, and from the first runs in ToS and CN, I can say that I did the most damage during the boss encounters. I didn't notice a big damage drop overall in comparison to my SS-Thaumaturge build I used before. Will keep you posted after I did more runs.
It's this kind of thread that makes me realize why there are so many bad CWs.
0
chemboy613Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,521Arc User
edited February 2014
Good, guys I appreciate your testing ^^ Some thoughts here, as I don't play renegade I don't play this style, so it's nice to know people are trying things with good results.
I think I could throw more dailies with CA - but i find i really don't need them. Sing and immolation (at most) add up to 10% of my damage.
The value these specs are missing is the 6% mitigation from SoD and the 15% mitigation from conduit. It's 21% more damage for _everyone_, and even if I chain OF, i can't make up 20% increase to 4 other people's damage, unless they are inept, which they aren't if we are killing draco together
While I know that's only 90%, I'm just remembering roughly from logs. It obviously varies fight to fight.
Also some things about thaum - elemental empowerment is multiplicative (tested by Taja Fury of Quantum), so these things are why thaum is best boss killer, and also why debuff enchantments melt bosses faster than straight DPS enchants.
Say you have 3 thaums fighting Draco, one with P. Terror and one with GPF.
so counduit X3 (45%) plus swath (6%) - so already -51% mitigation, then defense... -1350 from someone's HV (about 33%), then 9 elemental empowerment (.9^9 = 39% remaining, so -61%), then terror (20%), then GPF (45%), so we are at -138% defense, plus defense starts at 0 because everyone has capped armor pen... it's not surprsing that when we stack thaum we see effectiveness ratings in ACT up to 290%, where draco is taking up to triple damage from everyone - that's why Thaum is so powerful.
There is no doubt that renegades tend to have more burst, but it is difficult to make up for all these debuffs, which is why most endgame PvE CWs go thaum. Obviously in such parties, especially if we have a good P.Vorpal GWF doing AOE DPS, we are fighting with only a few adds at a time, and everything melts. Kill times under 4 minutes are not unusual with this setup
I guess the thought between CA and Swath is the question - do you need more AP?
I'm not a huge OF fan for MoF - that's because I really like immolation. There is one huge downside to OF - that is, it spreads the mobs out. This actually hurts team DPS. Sure the OF does more damage than other CW dailies, but then everyone else does less damage because the adds are all over the place. That's why OF only makes sense in multi CW parties, when the next CW can use immolation of sing to gather them back up.
But what people are seeing here is true - a MoF in the party kills bosses faster. It honestly might not be you personally doing more damage, but the party does more damage for sure. As I said earlier, i don't care about paingiver, i just want to bring home wins.
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited February 2014
I'm thinking more dailies from a control perspective. More singularities means the mobs stay tightly packed more often, which equals high group dps overall. In add heavy fights, having those extra dailies to fire off makes more of a difference, at least to me, than a little extra group damage. It's not about using dailies to up your personal damage score.
"Meanwhile in the moderator's lounge..."
0
uurbsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 449Bounty Hunter
[...]
I'm not a huge OF fan for MoF - that's because I really like immolation. There is one huge downside to OF - that is, it spreads the mobs out. This actually hurts team DPS. Sure the OF does more damage than other CW dailies, but then everyone else does less damage because the adds are all over the place. That's why OF only makes sense in multi CW parties, when the next CW can use immolation of sing to gather them back up.
[...]
If we run with 3 CW's we rotate OF -> AS -> OF ... in order to maximize the HV debuffs. I'm not a fan of Furious Immolation at all, as it only works for 8 instead of the 15 MOBs AS hits.
If we run with 3 CW's we rotate OF -> AS -> OF ... in order to maximize the HV debuffs. I'm not a fan of Furious Immolation at all, as it only works for 8 instead of the 15 MOBs AS hits.
Immolation is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Complete garbage, and worthless. I would spec out of it but I just haven't had the time. It doesn't hit enough targets (8 vs. 15 or infinite. Ugh.) and never, ever crits. It is inferior in every way to Oppressive Force or Astral Singularity. Sure it's base damage is slightly higher, but with the reduced target cap it will always, always, always do less damage than either OP or AS. Well, unless there are only 8 targets at which point why are you using a daily on them?
There is no doubt that renegades tend to have more burst, but it is difficult to make up for all these debuffs,
Ray of Enfeeblement. If you're pounding with magic missile you will contribute your Chaotic Fury/Nexus in an AoE around the boss as well, while keeping your single-target damage higher. It also keeps Nightmare wizardry on a single target pretty well.
Is there no room in a team with three wizards for one who concentrates on single-target debuff/damage? Hmm.
I will say that considering the AoE size of the buff/debuff on Chaos Magic it's pretty likely that other wizards aren't going to get it. Renegade operates within a pretty tight 15ft radius to maximize their damage. Tough to keep close in fights like Draco, so you're probably right.
With Masterful Arcane Theft RoE gets a 20% damage buff. Chaotic Fury add's 15%. That's a 35% increase in damage for Ray of Enfeeblement. With Nexus it's a 50%. This doesn't include the actual mitigation debuff of ray itself, which pumps things to a whopping 70% damage increase on just RoE with a 50% increase to...everyone else. Not including HV or any other sources.
So no, Renegade doesn't fall short in the debuff department. It's just that Renegade is a boss debuff instead of an AoE debuff.
I know that last night doing the last boss in Karrundax our GWF hit with a 110k restoring strike...not sure how much of that was me and how much of that was him, but he seemed happy with it. I was the only wizard.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
There is no doubt that renegades tend to have more burst, but it is difficult to make up for all these debuffs, which is why most endgame PvE CWs go thaum.
They don't even have superior burst. Unless renegades started using the HV set, even then they lose 15% burst damage on the shard.
For Thaums, the shard and OF hit so hard the burst of the thaum is far beyond renegade.
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited February 2014
I'll post some screencaps later when I have time to upload them, but I took the MoF into a CN run and some VTs. The results were phenomenal.
After the runs this afternoon, I'm completely sold on the MoF. Anyone who says the Paragon Path is inferior to Spellstorms is going to have to put up some parses. But like I said, more to come later when I have time to post. After 3 hours of gaming, the wife needs me to take care of the kids for a bit
They don't even have superior burst. Unless renegades started using the HV set, even then they lose 15% burst damage on the shard.
For Thaums, the shard and OF hit so hard the burst of the thaum is far beyond renegade.
Lose 15% bonus damage on shard, gain 20% damage bonus to Steal Time/RoE. Of course, to be fair, your Shard should also be applying a 10% debuff which could be considered a 10% damage boost to Steal Time as well. I wouldn't define either or those things as 'burst'. Both contribute a whole lot on Boss fights, and those are all that matter.
Renegade vs. Thaum is a simple comparison. One is AoE debuff/damage, one is ST debuff/damage. Thaum Spellstorm will simply not put out the same single-target DPS numbers or the same single-target debuff as Renegade MoF. The Renegade MoF will never put out the same amount of AoE DPS/Debuff.
You can, of course, argue that only AoE debuff/DPS matters but that doesn't mean Renegade MoF is bad at it's role. It just means you don't value that role. I can certainly understand why you might have that opinion with Castlenever, but that's not the only dungeon in the game. It's not even the only way to beat the boss.
MoF/Thaum CWSS/Thaum CWIV/Protector GFSW/Combat HRSM/Destroyer GWFWK/Executioner TRDO/Faithful DC
I'll post some screencaps later when I have time to upload them, but I took the MoF into a CN run and some VTs. The results were phenomenal.
After the runs this afternoon, I'm completely sold on the MoF. Anyone who says the Paragon Path is inferior to Spellstorms is going to have to put up some parses. But like I said, more to come later when I have time to post. After 3 hours of gaming, the wife needs me to take care of the kids for a bit
Can't wait to hear then Just re-specced today to a new "Fire&Ice" configuration but didn't have time to test it proper yet, but it looks good!
Lose 15% bonus damage on shard, gain 20% damage bonus to Steal Time/RoE. Of course, to be fair, your Shard should also be applying a 10% debuff which could be considered a 10% damage boost to Steal Time as well. I wouldn't define either or those things as 'burst'. Both contribute a whole lot on Boss fights, and those are all that matter.
Renegade vs. Thaum is a simple comparison. One is AoE debuff/damage, one is ST debuff/damage. Thaum Spellstorm will simply not put out the same single-target DPS numbers or the same single-target debuff as Renegade MoF. The Renegade MoF will never put out the same amount of AoE DPS/Debuff.
You can, of course, argue that only AoE debuff/DPS matters but that doesn't mean Renegade MoF is bad at it's role. It just means you don't value that role. I can certainly understand why you might have that opinion with Castlenever, but that's not the only dungeon in the game. It's not even the only way to beat the boss.
Tell you what, why don't you go ahead and parse a couple fights with ACT and then veril or myself can post some runs from spellstorm thaum and we can view the comparison ourselves.
Here's what thaum has:
10% more damage to mobs less than 30% health
10% more damage for 4 seconds when you kill a foe, that stacks 3 times
up to 25% more damage after hitting enemies with the third hit of chilling cloud
15% more damage from shard and 20% more from IR
A weak dot that can add up to some okay damage and when using arcane encounters is 10% more mitigation
a capstone that gives 15% more mitigation to CoI
Here's what renegade has:
More ap gain
More damage with at wills if you're ridiculously close to a target (also, your at will damage is minimal)
A chance to give combat advantage, which is okay since combat advantage for most CWs will give 17-18% with the cha bonus, but guess what, someone stepping to the other side of the mob does the same thing. lol
15% crit severity, now assuming you are using a pvorp and dancing blade, you already have 230% severity, so this is 6.52% damage * your crit chance. I believe in another post you said your crit chance was 35%, so we're looking at 2.3% more damage.
At most 20% more damage on steal time and RoE, but usually less than this.
A 33% chance to reduce target mitigation, which you don't normally use magic missiles before encounters, so likely not going to happen.
Do you begin to see the tremendous differences between renegade and thaum with this? I really hope so at this point.
Now here's the real kicker, the capstone and elemental empowerment stack from multiple CWs. Those 2 alone make your party do at most 25% more damage throughout fights, though in reality it usually falls somewhere in the 15-20% range. But imagine that with 3-4 CWs giving that kind of bonus. And people wonder why we stack CWs. >.>
Comments
What I have seen from spell storm is that renegades perform better on the clear and worse on Draco, assuming similar gear.
What I've seen on spell storms is also that plaguefire and terror are better for the party than vorpal, though I have seen some as Cws with totally insane dps, but they were 17.8k glass cannons.
As for my build, it's very much a team first kind of thing, the control is heavy and the debuff is excellent so you set up your team to win. Those smolder ticks add up to a ton too.
As for the renegade bar, the concern with FTf on tap, especially paired with enfeebled is a lack of control, but for dailies it is enough. I have heard of MoF renegades doing this, and what I've heard is it is good. There are just so few MoF renegades out there
I assume the target cap is 5 or 8 but I am uncertain. Furious immolation is 8.
Nightmare wizardry is great, I think it is one of the best cw feats. I make sure to take it.
As for builds, that is why shadow weaver is best for MoF. The hv bonus is amazing too, so it's optimal to pair a MoF with a spell storm and use both. It seems this is better than two of the same.
I'd also like to see some alternative MoF builds, but it think this the only one up here? Any other high end Cws using MoF?
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
RoE(TAB)+Smolder+Icy Terrain+FtF+EF. The best part is that when you pair this with decent life steal, as everyone probably already does, it provides a surprisingly strong heal over time effect that lets you heal up very quickly while kiting. (Shadow Weaver also helps with that.)
Also I was totally wrong on crit severity cap. You can get a 173% crit severity with p.vorpal and shadow weaver set.
This would also clearly not be very helpful on the Dracolich, just noting it for other fights. MoF might be the best single-target mage you can make. Insaneo single-target debuff/DoT.
Icy is amazing in Draco. However, that bar might be nice to try out, but single target you gotta get close... I'd have to think of a fight where that's good.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Not many. Frozen Heart last boss it's pretty good, but otherwise not so much
I'm sorry to denied you here. You can find multiple MoF report about gameplay and test.
MoF bug is very well documented (check the 2014 buglist post) :
>> FI never crit, like MoC.
>> Smolder's damage is delayed to the end of the effect that create it. This bug only have an impact on short living mob.
>> Rimefire's damage is delayed to the end of the chill effect on the target. this bug is problematic only if used with Frost-based encounter (Icy Terrain with CS or CoI on tab, and Oppressor). If the rotation let chll drop of the target regularly, then it's the same problem than with Smolder.
What we still don't know :
>> Number of minion that can share smolder damage on the target by FtF. I haven't found how to test it but from experience I think it's at least 5. But it's a really powerful spell.
>> If Rimefire is considered as Fire's damage for Combustive Action's debuff and if they are increased by Swatch of Destruction, like Smolder. (They should in both case).
Maybe, it should be add to the CW bug list as a "clarification needed".
And I'm really curious to see what could be Dev replies about all of it.
What I was saying is that due to the bugs (you pointed them out here for those who didn't know XD) most CWs aren't playing MoF. As an extension of this issue, most people think MoF sucks, because thaum SS doesn't have to deal with the bugs, thus better, etc, etc.
TL;DR: I'm saying due to the bugs that do exist, people aren't playing it, not that there are no bugs.
After seeing why they fix MoC (for PvP reason, not Valindra's exploit), I think they think that it's not urgent because it's actually fine as it is, even if it's bugged.
Oppressor, which is all about chill, has perpetual chill on stuff. This means perpetual rimefire. A perpetual dot that causes the thing to fall down even faster. Oppressor can do this to multiple things, throw FtF in there and you are talking making stuff cry in burnafication.
The problem with all of that is that the DoT is broken. As Nathyiel pointed out, it simply doesn't work. So by extension, Oppressor doesn't work very well with MoF. It can, but not well. That'd be why I actually respec'd to renegade last night.
I was able to do some 1v1 PVP after my team quit on me.. First fight against someone in better gear, we got a double KO. While they (ss mage) killed me first, they immediately dropped after due to the burn. Which is pretty good considering I was still learning the new routine. The rest of the 1v1s I'd manage to bring them to half on a good fight (GF mud stomped me though) but I didn't quite have it down. It'll probably take me a few days practice to get it there.
In SpellStorm, Chilling Control give a 50% chance to Chill at Sudden Storm witch is an AOE spell.
In MoF, Twisting Immolation give to FI a better control and a longer debuff for Combustive Action.
1- It give MoF less chill capability. As we have only 2 possible setup : COI on tab + IT or CS on tab + IT. Where in StormSpell, it could be Repel or Shard on tab, because SS can also add Chill.
2- It force the use of Combustive Action. So it reduce the choice at Critical Conflagration OR Chilling Presence. Not both at the same time. (And it's only if it work with Rimefire).
I won't say it's bad because it can lead to some interesting gameplay.
Last question : is Smolder/Rimefire's damage is affected by Intelligence's damage bonus. I ask because of Learned Spellcaster. If it's the case, this feat would be an obvious choice as MoF.
edit>>
And there's also the fact that as oppressor even if you add smolder, it's changed into Rimefire directly result in having nearly no Smolder on the target. Nerfing damage even more.
As for the feat aspect, I wouldn't take that particular effect either way. an earlier entry in the oppressor tree helps more (at work so I can't give specifics, sorry!) It's just like I don't use ice storm, just because oppressor cap adds to it.
My general set for Oppressor is Shard, IT on tab, ST, EF. I dislike CoI, so don't use it, but if it came down to it, I would use CoI for PVE. As Crit and swath are just that much superior to combustive, I'd still run with those.
The same idea has worked pretty amazingly in every dungeon where the standard strategy is to run and knock add's into things. Damage is utterly unimportant in such situations, and the added AP is noticeable.
The debuff to fire damage off CA might even work into a DPS rotation, but really DPS seems secondary with class skills that focus on DoT and AP generation. Regardless, either way my damage dropped pretty significantly without Critical Combustion. It's possible that's just from knocking more add's than usual, but it's hard to say.
>> Chilling Presence : increase damage between 3% and 18% par Chill stack.
>> Combustive Action : increase target's Fire damage receive by 9% but depend on Daily but Furious Immolation can't be used every 5s. It require FtF on tab for maximise the debuff.
>> Critical Conflagration : increase Crit Severity by 15% (~7.5% crit damage increase) and make smolder easier to apply.
>> Swatch of Destruction : increase target's damage receive by 6% and increase smolder damage by 24%
case 1 : CP + CC
Smolder is put by cold spell and you need IT + CoI on tab to maximise Chill uptime on targets.
case 2 : CP + SD
Smolder is put with Scorching burst and you need IT + CoI on tab to maximise Chill uptime on targets.
case 3 : CC + SD
Smolder is put by cold or arcane spell. You don't need to keep obligatory keep hight stack of chill on target.
For max damage, the best will be CP+SD as you keep high chill stack on target and smolder will have the best uptime as it require a specific cast from At-Will or FtF on tab.
For a versatile usage, the best is CC+SD.
For max control, CO+CC is the best as you can maximise chill stacking but don't increase damage for the group. For PvP ?
If Rimefire is debugged, I really want to test it more seriously.
Only had time to do a couple successful VT runs before the snowstorm knocked out my internet, but I was very pleased with it. Despite the chill bug, I still did around the same amount of damage total I normally do in a VT run (and topped the chart again, versus two other very well geared GWF's and another CW). Single target damage was actually A LOT higher versus Valindra (almost 1600 DPS) if I'm to believe my ACT, but I need to do more runs to confirm. However, it was the first time my guild took her down with only one coffin dance in Phase 3, and burned her to zero before the next coffins popped.
So anyway, it was fun, and I'd love to start theorycrafting a bit more with you about this build. We all know how to maximize damage as a SS CW, that's boring now. Let's optimize the MoF
As far as the class features, it does seem like all three have their place.
Clearing the trash in VT I was running with CC and CA, and left SoD off. The reason I did this is smolder damage doesn't seem to be a huge part of the overall equation, maybe 5-10%, so 24% extra damage there isn't much at all. I think the 6% boost to damage taken is great, but here's the thoughts on the other two.
CA seemed really good for trash. I could use OF or Sing to put Smolder on a bunch of targets, then get 3% AP as they died, which create a sort of virtuous circle as I was clearing trash. I could cast my daily a lot more, which put smolder on a lot of targets very quickly, which in turn generated even more AP. I felt like I was throwing out dailies at least twice as fast as the other CW (who I regularly run with and is a very good/well geared player).
CC seems great, but given that I was only running at about a 38% crit chance, is the extra 15% Severity really worth it? And how necessary are the crits for spreading smolder, especially if you're use CC and FtF? That's my question I need to answer.
For Valindra, CA didn't make any sense, since no adds were blowing up, so CC and SoD made a more sense. My ST powers were CoI in tab, FtF, Enfeeble and Chill Strike. I found that parsing on training dummies, when you consider the HV buff being added by CS, both CoI and CS outperformed Icey Rays considerably, hence I took Icey Rays out of the rotation.
The other question mark for me is the Feat:Drifting Embers. Initially, it doesn't seem great, but if you consider a boss fight where you'll have FtF on, and a lot of adds, it would seem like with all the hits the mob would take, Drifting Embers would really help spread and keep smolder on all the adds around the boss, which would in turn significantly up the damage the boss would take from the feedback damage from smolder.
Anyway, those are my thoughts after being a MoF for about 12 hours.
I hear people really like controlling action. It's possible if your wisdom is low, or your recovery is low, or you don't have crit power, then it would make sense. Personally i hav 18 wis, about 3800 recovery, and critical power, so I have basically no issues with AP gain. I tested it though, and seems that fanning the flame doesn't generate that much AP (i switched out terrian, which generates tons of AP), so maybe it makes sense. I would suggest testing for you and your build, as I think "enough" AP gain is really nice.
I don't put FTF on tab because I'm thaum and conduit is simply too good, however people who have tried have gotten good results.
My thought on an interesting build was go renegade, but FtF on tab, take drifting embers, and test. I just can't bring myself to remove critical conflaguration - it is so good, but i would love to hear your tests.
What i've noticed and heard from very high DPS CWs and very high DPS parties is that nothing lives long enough to see the MoF sustained damage - and i have certainly seen this happen to me occasionally. That said, those runs are very smooth and fast and the dracolich dies quickly without incident.
The since thing about SotD, is that it's 6% more damage to everyone - which is huge in a long fight. I likewise think this is an excellent ability, so I keep it on 100%
I think everyone should test based on their own spec/gear and see what happens. It's important to use ACT here so we can see not only how are we performing, but how we are effecting our teammates. Since it is a team game, we must look at team performance... - oops I forgot that caring about others makes me bad
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
do not reply to this mod note. instead, send a PM if you'd like to discuss it.
This is about my experience as well, although CA's usefulness tapers off when fighting multiple stronger add's given that they don't die very quickly. It really shines in fights where you know you'll be killing multiple add's very quickly. Spellplague, most of Frozen Heart, and ToS it seems to do pretty well. Heck, even for most of CN if you don't mind the DPS loss.
Honestly the extra critical severity is kind of a backseat to it adding Smolder on any target you crit. Scorching Burst add's Smolder pretty quickly, but for me CA and CC are interchangeable since both of them add smolder it's just a difference in how they do so. The 5%(?) added damage from Swath of Destruction and the added Smolder damage is always useful while CA/CC are both useful but not as routinely as SD IMO.
Personally I like to slot CC when I know there are a metric ton of add's. A single critical Icy Terrain has uncapped targets, add's chill & smolder, and with Rimefire the DoT is going to tick a lot longer and be an automatic critical hit as well for smolder/rimefire. In looking at my parses, Icy Terrain by itself skews my overall critical rate by something like 10-20% more than my actual crit rate.
For single target I actually prefer RoE on Tab, FtF, EF, and CoI/CS. I'm a Renegade though, so the extra 20% damage on Ray is probably the deciding factor. RoE can do some pretty sick damage all on it's own, one of the best ST attacks a mage gets.
I tried Drifting Embers and TBH the proc rate just doesn't seem high enough considering it only add's Smolder to one target at a time and only when FtF is ticking, which is only about a 4 second window. Given the relative ease of adding Smolder with other options, such as Scorching Burst, it just doesn't seem worth the 5 points. Arcane Burst, on the other hand, add's Arcane stacks fairly reliably. Often 2+ stacks per cast on clustered mobs. If I had to choose one, AB wins hands down in my book. As a Thaum, it's probably not as attractive as picking up Nightmare Wizardry instead.
Keep it coming!
The thing is that adding CA on top of your 'enough' AP gain will then generate 'more AP than you know what to do with'. You can almost spam dailies if things are dying consistently. Certainly not always useful, but when it is boy howdy is it useful. I ran ToS probably 10 times over the last few days and the ease of running it has gone up considerably on the last boss with CA&CC slotted and spamming Oppressive Force.
My current favorite is using CA/SD, throwing a Singularity, spamming one or two Scorching Bursts, then tossing a tabbed FtF onto something I really don't like in the middle of it. FtF is indeed terrible AP, but if they all die within the next 5 seconds or so that's a maximum of 45% AP gained. In other words, you directly profit in AP from a Spellstorm Thaums/GWF's murder spree. (3% AP per kill, 15 target cap on Sing.)
So basically if your team is full of OP murderfaces I'd say CA&CC. If your team is not full of murder machines CC&SD. This is because SD is the most useful when things die the slowest.
The uncapped target limit on Icy Terrain is almost the only reason I use CC, as it's otherwise a fairly lackluster class feature given that a single crit is only going to apply smolder to 5 targets. I.E. The same number as Scorching Burst add's by default.
Think about the advantage of CC - you don't have to use scorching burst in your rotation, instead you can use that time your powers are on cooldown to just Chilling Cloud (careful not to use CC twice) to proc FPT - or since you are renegade, magic missile to proc chaos magic. There is only so much time inbetween encounters and it is difficult to get the bonus from both at wills effectively.
Another thing, while scorching burst adds to 5 targets and immolation to 8, every time shard crits - 15 smolders, every steal time - 5 more, every conduit - 5 more, every icy terrian crit, god knows how much. Then the smolder adds up.
Looking at ACT from our last draco fight, the smolders added up to a total of 12% of my DPS, and the crit severity is (i'm guessing here) around 5% more DPS - so this one class feature is responsible for 17% DPS - which is _huge_. If I am going to give that up, I must be getting a whole lot back in return.
About the AP gain though, with 3 CWs, often times they can use sing and i can use immolation. With two CWs, we really don't have AP problems either. I think critical power is a huge part of that, and an obvious choice (at wills are 6% of dps so reapers touch doesn't seem practical).
So I am thinking CA might be good if i am struggling with AP gain - maybe if i 1 CW CN? XD but as it stands i didn't spec into it. I'm actually considering switching to the book and dropping recovery, because I am getting plenty of AP.
That said, I think feats, gear, encounters, and playstyle have a lot to do with AP generation. That's why i suggest you must test yourself, as how you wiz will really effect how long it takes to get sing up.
Looking at my log, it seems i use a daily about once every 30 seconds, and I am often holding them for timing in my rotations and teammates rotations so if I was spamming i could go even faster. I was using immolation that round because the adds were dying too fast for Sing
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
This is very true, I wanted to try a Thaum MoF with the Arcane Burst feat with Scorching Burst and Chilling Cloud as at-wills, but frankly there just aren't enough feat points to get what I wanted to try it out. If you really wanted to get something to apply Smolder that wasn't Scorching Burst, I think CA is the overall easier way to do so on the highest number of add's in one go. I'm not a thaumaturge though, so there will be a different optimal. Chilling Cloud doesn't really do anything for a Renegade so I spec'ed out of it completely and can not test with it =(
Also true, honestly I use Scorching Burst to add a lot of Arcane stacks very quickly. The smolder it add's is just bonus to me. It's up-front damage is way more than smolder either way.
Yup, it's unquestionable that CC is very, very useful for a MoF. When I run Combustive Action i'm usually running it with Critical Conflagration as the goal isn't to do damage with smolder, but to profit in AP from targets that die with smolder on them.
As you say, Smolder itself really doesn't do that impressive of damage by itself in most situations. The 6% or so in added damage to the team may or may not be more useful than 3% of your AP bar per kill. For a renegade I find that throwing more OF/AS does a pretty goodly amount of damage in it's own right, probably more than 6% team-wide buffs. More damage or not, having my 'oh $h1t' button up more often isn't a bad thing. It's nice to have the option anyway.
Immolation is pretty junk to me. If it could crit, and if it hit 15 targets, it would be worthwhile but as it is now it's worse than using either OF or AS in both damage and control. Immolation add's smolder to 8 targets out of the box, whereas with CA Singularity add's smolder to 15 targets and OF applies smolder to a functionally infinite numbers of add's. This is in addition to it adding an 8%(?) fire debuff to every target, making Oppressive Force arguably the best Daily power to use for MoF in almost any situation. Especially if you are running Scorching Burst, which I am.
All true statements, build for your playstyle ^_^ If add's are dying too fast for Sing to gather them, throw OF instead for instant AP and a bonus to fire damage. In such a situation, with add's dying so quickly, I would not be at all surprised if you could chain Oppressive Force's stun with the CA class skill. I'd be curious to try, either way. It's counter-intuitive to spam Dailies after playing a spellstorm for so long, but really it seems to work pretty well.
I need to check and see if the bonus fire damage off CA applies to smolder. That would really bring it further ahead to me.
Again, from testing on dummies on the preview server, I parsed about 1600 DPS higher with my MoF build over my current SS, single target. And that was without using CoI on tab, which I think will parse out more damage than EF on tab. Since there's no way to isolate a single dummy by itself, I didn't want the AOE from CoI affecting the parse.
Anyway, I think the gem here is Fan the Flames. Since the target of FtF takes more damage from Smolder targets AND damage when Smolder targets die near the target, I thought the spec would be ideal for most of the boss fights, like ToS, where you have a big boss swimming in adds. Unfortunately, I won't be able to run some actual tests with parses until my internet gets back on track
But like I said, going through VT yesterday, the first boss melted much faster than I was use to, and we had seemed to be burning Valindra down much faster. Unfortunately, I didn't think to set up ACT to parse out the damage.
But in boss fights with lots of adds, I think FtF, probably tabbed with CC and CA is going to be magical.
I think I could throw more dailies with CA - but i find i really don't need them. Sing and immolation (at most) add up to 10% of my damage.
The value these specs are missing is the 6% mitigation from SoD and the 15% mitigation from conduit. It's 21% more damage for _everyone_, and even if I chain OF, i can't make up 20% increase to 4 other people's damage, unless they are inept, which they aren't if we are killing draco together
My breakdown from draco fights tend to be this:
25-30% conduit
20-25% shard
10-12% smolder
8-10% Sing/immolation
~10% steal time
5% icy terrian
5% chilling cloud
While I know that's only 90%, I'm just remembering roughly from logs. It obviously varies fight to fight.
Also some things about thaum - elemental empowerment is multiplicative (tested by Taja Fury of Quantum), so these things are why thaum is best boss killer, and also why debuff enchantments melt bosses faster than straight DPS enchants.
Say you have 3 thaums fighting Draco, one with P. Terror and one with GPF.
so counduit X3 (45%) plus swath (6%) - so already -51% mitigation, then defense... -1350 from someone's HV (about 33%), then 9 elemental empowerment (.9^9 = 39% remaining, so -61%), then terror (20%), then GPF (45%), so we are at -138% defense, plus defense starts at 0 because everyone has capped armor pen... it's not surprsing that when we stack thaum we see effectiveness ratings in ACT up to 290%, where draco is taking up to triple damage from everyone - that's why Thaum is so powerful.
There is no doubt that renegades tend to have more burst, but it is difficult to make up for all these debuffs, which is why most endgame PvE CWs go thaum. Obviously in such parties, especially if we have a good P.Vorpal GWF doing AOE DPS, we are fighting with only a few adds at a time, and everything melts. Kill times under 4 minutes are not unusual with this setup
I guess the thought between CA and Swath is the question - do you need more AP?
I'm not a huge OF fan for MoF - that's because I really like immolation. There is one huge downside to OF - that is, it spreads the mobs out. This actually hurts team DPS. Sure the OF does more damage than other CW dailies, but then everyone else does less damage because the adds are all over the place. That's why OF only makes sense in multi CW parties, when the next CW can use immolation of sing to gather them back up.
But what people are seeing here is true - a MoF in the party kills bosses faster. It honestly might not be you personally doing more damage, but the party does more damage for sure. As I said earlier, i don't care about paingiver, i just want to bring home wins.
Everything you need to know about CW:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?780981-Chem-s-CW-Compendium-Everything-you-need-to-know
Immolation is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Complete garbage, and worthless. I would spec out of it but I just haven't had the time. It doesn't hit enough targets (8 vs. 15 or infinite. Ugh.) and never, ever crits. It is inferior in every way to Oppressive Force or Astral Singularity. Sure it's base damage is slightly higher, but with the reduced target cap it will always, always, always do less damage than either OP or AS. Well, unless there are only 8 targets at which point why are you using a daily on them?
Ray of Enfeeblement. If you're pounding with magic missile you will contribute your Chaotic Fury/Nexus in an AoE around the boss as well, while keeping your single-target damage higher. It also keeps Nightmare wizardry on a single target pretty well.
Is there no room in a team with three wizards for one who concentrates on single-target debuff/damage? Hmm.
I will say that considering the AoE size of the buff/debuff on Chaos Magic it's pretty likely that other wizards aren't going to get it. Renegade operates within a pretty tight 15ft radius to maximize their damage. Tough to keep close in fights like Draco, so you're probably right.
With Masterful Arcane Theft RoE gets a 20% damage buff. Chaotic Fury add's 15%. That's a 35% increase in damage for Ray of Enfeeblement. With Nexus it's a 50%. This doesn't include the actual mitigation debuff of ray itself, which pumps things to a whopping 70% damage increase on just RoE with a 50% increase to...everyone else. Not including HV or any other sources.
So no, Renegade doesn't fall short in the debuff department. It's just that Renegade is a boss debuff instead of an AoE debuff.
I know that last night doing the last boss in Karrundax our GWF hit with a 110k restoring strike...not sure how much of that was me and how much of that was him, but he seemed happy with it. I was the only wizard.
They don't even have superior burst. Unless renegades started using the HV set, even then they lose 15% burst damage on the shard.
For Thaums, the shard and OF hit so hard the burst of the thaum is far beyond renegade.
After the runs this afternoon, I'm completely sold on the MoF. Anyone who says the Paragon Path is inferior to Spellstorms is going to have to put up some parses. But like I said, more to come later when I have time to post. After 3 hours of gaming, the wife needs me to take care of the kids for a bit
Lose 15% bonus damage on shard, gain 20% damage bonus to Steal Time/RoE. Of course, to be fair, your Shard should also be applying a 10% debuff which could be considered a 10% damage boost to Steal Time as well. I wouldn't define either or those things as 'burst'. Both contribute a whole lot on Boss fights, and those are all that matter.
Renegade vs. Thaum is a simple comparison. One is AoE debuff/damage, one is ST debuff/damage. Thaum Spellstorm will simply not put out the same single-target DPS numbers or the same single-target debuff as Renegade MoF. The Renegade MoF will never put out the same amount of AoE DPS/Debuff.
You can, of course, argue that only AoE debuff/DPS matters but that doesn't mean Renegade MoF is bad at it's role. It just means you don't value that role. I can certainly understand why you might have that opinion with Castlenever, but that's not the only dungeon in the game. It's not even the only way to beat the boss.
Can't wait to hear then
Tell you what, why don't you go ahead and parse a couple fights with ACT and then veril or myself can post some runs from spellstorm thaum and we can view the comparison ourselves.
Here's what thaum has:
10% more damage to mobs less than 30% health
10% more damage for 4 seconds when you kill a foe, that stacks 3 times
up to 25% more damage after hitting enemies with the third hit of chilling cloud
15% more damage from shard and 20% more from IR
A weak dot that can add up to some okay damage and when using arcane encounters is 10% more mitigation
a capstone that gives 15% more mitigation to CoI
Here's what renegade has:
More ap gain
More damage with at wills if you're ridiculously close to a target (also, your at will damage is minimal)
A chance to give combat advantage, which is okay since combat advantage for most CWs will give 17-18% with the cha bonus, but guess what, someone stepping to the other side of the mob does the same thing. lol
15% crit severity, now assuming you are using a pvorp and dancing blade, you already have 230% severity, so this is 6.52% damage * your crit chance. I believe in another post you said your crit chance was 35%, so we're looking at 2.3% more damage.
At most 20% more damage on steal time and RoE, but usually less than this.
A 33% chance to reduce target mitigation, which you don't normally use magic missiles before encounters, so likely not going to happen.
Do you begin to see the tremendous differences between renegade and thaum with this? I really hope so at this point.
Now here's the real kicker, the capstone and elemental empowerment stack from multiple CWs. Those 2 alone make your party do at most 25% more damage throughout fights, though in reality it usually falls somewhere in the 15-20% range. But imagine that with 3-4 CWs giving that kind of bonus. And people wonder why we stack CWs. >.>