I see nothing wrong with TR's damage, the real problem about them is the endless stealth capabilities + 75% deflect severity. They already have high deflect, why should they reduce 75% of damage by it? They're as squishy as a CW or HR, but with ITC and stealth. Tenacity already lowered damage overall, Impact Shot is fine as it is on live considering there will be tenacity implemented.
And yes, I play as a CW currently, and Impact Shot is less frustrating thing in their entire kit. Devs fixed it's mistiming, now you can easily dodge in between being hit by Impact Shots.
The 75% deflection severity always bugged me. It should be 25%, not any higher since the class has godmode every 15 seconds already along with mini godmode (dodges) and is obviously wearing leather, not scale or plate. Another strange design flaw is the increased run speed in stealth. In every other mmo out there if a rogue uses stealth they become slower, not faster. It should be -50% run speed while being stealthed. The biggest TR design flaw to me is the fact, that they deal over the top damage while being visible. It should be decreased by -40-50% while being visible and only get to 100% from stealth. But yeah, judging the great developer feedback about how to "balance" GWF, i am quite sure they have already nice things planned for the rogues,too.
Tenacity in the case of TR is a good thing, not the best way to adjust balance but it is a start.
You don't understand the class to make those comments. Every single offensive ability?? (LOLOLOL)
We have 2 burst moves, Impact Shot and Lashing Blade. In fact, we have the most utility moves of any class with very few true damage dealing moves.
Lashing is one of the easiest moves in the game to avoid and has a 20 sec cooldown. Most TRs don't even use it. That leaves us with Impact Shot which is getting nerfed.
Understand that TRs are a burst class by design. We are supposed to be able to kill an enemy target more quickly than any other class.
Now I see impact shot hit for 1k sometimes on the test shard. How is that supposed to help me? These moves have too long of cooldowns for the low damage that they do. We use all our encounters on one single target (leaving us crippled if another comes shortly after due to the long cooldowns) and then look at the enemy hp and realize they still have 80% hp.....
This means we are forced use at-wills to do all of our damage. problem is that duelist furry has a long wind-up (unlike the other classes at-wills)
We cant prone enemies and knock them back like the other classes.
We are a soft melee class, we should be able to have burst moves...
If your going to take away the damage, at least give us some prone and knockback options like the other classes.
CWs and HRs can plant melee classes in place. HR can do so unfairly and we cant escape. Devs call this "a bug" yet they never fix it. Maybe in 2016 it will be fixed..
DCs, GFs, and GWFs can toss ppl around like cannon balls. GFs in particular can play ping pong with players. GWFs can prone you from 100% to 0 if their daily is up
TRs have???? our only CC is smoke and 90% of players don't even use it because its not good enough.
We are soft and a melee class, we deserve to have burst more than any class by far. Now we don't even have that
Being a TR has been reduced to hiding in stealth because we are so soft and doing low damage (all of which comes from at-will spaming)
If you are being proned down from 100% to 0% by GWF I suggest you acquire some gear with tenacity, at 20% tenacity the most geared P.vorpal GWF with an improved mark/3x SoS and 5xWM(and if you allowed him to achieve that then he deserves to kill you) can at the very best bring a TR down to about 45% but ONLY if the daily is up and EVERYTHING crits.
Secondly, you have stated yourself that TRs have the most utility moves and then you finish your post with "we deserve to have burst more than any class". So you want most utility and most damage? I'm pretty sure that is the reason for these changes and the reason why TRs have been overpowered since the beta.
Then you wrote "We are supposed to be able to kill an enemy target more quickly than any other class." Yes, burst classes like CWs have a much higher damage than others, and yes TRs damage is very high but another feature those burst classes have is extremely low defences, which does not apply to TRs. If you want more damage then I suggest changes to how quick stamina refills on a TR(currently feated its the quickest of all classes), changes to deflect severity, and reduction of stealth to 6 seconds and removal of ITC damage reduction. That would definitely balance things out.
You also want prones on your skills? Ever heard of Dazing strike? 2x quicker from stealth, longest CC out there, but wait it actually hits as hard as Frontline Surge after its damage got reduced by 25%. Ok, so let me get this straight? You want to have the quickest/highest burst because you "deserve it", you want to have utility and defence, you want to able to burst down CWs, DCs and tank spec GWFs alike and not be tossed by GFs who hit for nothing(lololol 5k bullrush) and have like under 10% crit chance on preview atm while a TR can jump around and eat him slowly.
Trololol
25%?
Actually, I agree TRs shouldn't be allowed to kill anything there should be a button that you click when u see a TR that automatically kills them. This is an easier solution and in line with your suggestions
I have a 16k sent with only a greater vorpal and I prone ppl from 100% to 0 ALL THE TIME on live. haven't tried it on test yet.
And yes, we are the low armor dps melee class, we are entitled to the most burst dps. everyone knows this. Who cares about utility when the moves themselves suck. Utility as in we have a move that will teleport us to enemies, but the damage is too low and is a waste of an encounter slot. Maybe 3-5% of TRs use it. We have another move that removes enemy armor but needs to be applied 5 times for max ArP and stays on for only seconds. It would be too hard to use in pvp and no TRs use it. Those are the sort of utility moves im talking about, we have them but none of them are very powerful and ultimately we only have 3 encounter slots so at max we would used one utility move.
Extremely low defenses doesn't apply to TRs? That's news to me...What made you think that?
Is it the low armor class? the low hp? the low damage resistance? the fact that none of our gear have regen?
You can reduce stealth length after you get it through your head that I don't even use stealth in combat. If I can I will start off in stealth but that's it, all stealth reduction would do is trivialize the class completely and make TRs become weak dagger wielding warriors. What your not seeming to understand is that stealth TR dps is pathetic. You need to slot shadow strike, invest in int, and invest heavily into recovery. All of that dramatically takes away from damage. On top of that, u cant use encounters only at-wills
If your character isn't strong enough to survive the nerfed 8 charge dagger throw then u need to find a new game.
Dazing strike is bugged and cant que anymore. Its the reason I forgot the move even existed.
Feating stamina means lowering dps significantly. Also, CWs have 3 dodges while HRs have a bugged root move and can hit from far away. Again, why should those classes have the same stamina regen?
Feating stamina means lowering dps significantly. Also, CWs have 3 dodges while HRs have a bugged root move and can hit from far away. Again, why should those classes have the same stamina regen?
Despite the fact that your class has an inbuilt function to get within range to burst Said Cw down, 75 % deflection Severity - It is extremely easy to stack high Deflect on TRs - Alysin Chains was running around with 41-42% awhile back.
Then you have ITC. Which not only gives you 100% deflection chance for 4 seconds (Oh look my damage does sweet F all to you in that 4 second window), but also makes you immune to CC - the ONLY other defence a CW has against any Melee Class.
Now, here is what else happens during that 4 second window - Usually, as an executioner, the Cw is getting crit for anwehere between 9-14k with Impact shot. On live, with 3 charges. Even Averaged at the lowest of 9k on live at the moment, that still only leaves my Cw with 4k Hp left from the 31k I started the fight with.
Now I am not saying that this happens all the time, because I have beaten my fair share of rogues, and only really struggle at the moment with the Perma Perfect bilethorns.
Please step down off your High horse. You claim that TRs have little to no survivability, but my Cw would love to have even half of what is available to you.
Stacking Deflect on a Cw can push you to max around 15% Deflect (Which lets be honest, is neglible), without having to sacrifice our defense slots which already are needed to Slot Hp for Deflect.
You think your TR is squishy? I can assure you, my Cw is currently 5 times more squishy purely from defensive stat layout and base defensive stats on gear.
Desidus@Xtraordinary91
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
First, I would like to support the point made by several others that Tenacity is not the balance a lot of players are looking for, but rather a buff to everyone's defenses/survivability (including those that do not need it) and debuff to everyone's incoming healing, which completely undermines the DC class and life steal attribute. An imbalance is not fixed by applying a constant to it. As others have said, Tenacity is a solution to a non-existent problem, all classes were not complaining about a lack of defenses nor abundance of incoming healing.
Players have clearly asked for specifics to be added to pvp, those being effective matchmaking, more maps, more modes, and sets with varied stats to allow creative build development for all classes. I really hope that these problems have been addressed (apparently Elo is coming), but are just not released onto preview yet, and that Tenacity was the most iffy new development in the devs minds, thus inspiring them to have us test it.
Second, I play as a CW in pvp, and my experience on preview testing Tenacity was not fun. I would much rather have the 'balance' remain as it is in live and see Tenacity changed to treat classes differently, ie. balance them. As a CW, high burst is basically the only reason we make it in pvp -- bursting down targets quickly is our 'thing' and it is now completely crippled by everyone's increased DR and Crit DR.
Sure, we have controls but already at high level competition on live the EF duration is laughable, and this is further diminished by the CC Resistance given to all by Tenacity. Our go to passive and other main reason pvp is possible, EoS, is also severely crippled by Crit DR. The Defense given by Tenacity is not enough to prevent other classes from reaching high dps on us, but yet it has completely nerfed our damage output. Also, to be competitive in pvp, high Regen is a must for CWs but the value of this is also being nerfed.
I really think this whole, 'let's apply the same 'fix' to everyone' approach is flawed -- there is nothing wrong with nerfing some classes while buffing others to effectively balance gameplay. By varying the amount of DR and crit DR each class receives from Tenacity, this may be accomplished and could be done for Healing Depression as well.
To make Tenacity an actual balance, the DR should only be applied to classes that need it (squishy), this way the damage to classes with high defensive stats is not crippled in general, but crits are still toned down a bit. The devs have said that they would like pvp to be less about bursting people down in single rotations, which only happens to the squishy classes (when has a good DC/GWF/GF been downed in one rotation?), so if you would like longer and more skill-oriented fights -- throw us a bone!
I really think this whole, 'let's apply the same 'fix' to everyone' approach is flawed -- there is nothing wrong with nerfing some classes while buffing others to effectively balance gameplay. By varying the amount of DR and crit DR each class receives from Tenacity, this may be accomplished and could be done for Healing Depression as well.
To make Tenacity an actual balance, the DR should only be applied to classes that need it (squishy), this way the damage to classes with high defensive stats is not crippled in general, but crits are still toned down a bit. The devs have said that they would like pvp to be less about bursting people down in single rotations, which only happens to the squishy classes (when has a good DC/GWF/GF been downed in one rotation?), so if you would like longer and more skill-oriented fights -- throw us a bone!
Due to the nature Tenacity reduction being calculated UPON damage being dealt, and not having it affect HOW MUCH damage is calculated, it very much does exactly what you are asking. The squishier of a class you are the more Tenacity benefits you, and the tankier you are the less it benefits you.
Tenacity is Multiplicative. The reasoning for this is as follows. It acts on the damage you *would have taken* without tenacity which means that every class gets the same real bonus out of tenacity based on the damage they would have taken without it.
Therefore if I have 20% resistance and someone deals 1000 damage, before tenacity I would have taken 800. Then add in 20% tenacity and we have 800 * .8 = 640 incoming damage.
If I had 50% base resistance instead against the same 1000 damage, before tenacity I would have taken 500. Add in the 20% tenacity and the final output damage is 400.
As far as Armor penetration is concerned, it is calculated at the time of dealing damage. And while you cannot actively resist more than the resist cap would allow, additional points are calculated for the purposes of dealing with armor penetration.
So if I would have had 88% resist after buffs, and someone strikes me for 1000 damage with 15% armor penetration I would take
1000 * (1 - (.88 - .15)) = 370 damage.
If I instead had 120% resistance in theory, I would instead take
1000 * (1 - MIN((1.2 - .15),.8)) = 200 damage.
Currently tenacity is NOT affected by armor penetration. It would happen after all of these calculations had happened.
So in the above two cases, with 20% tenacity you would actually take 296 and 160 damage respectively.
Hopefully that helps clear up where the math here is taking place.
Due to the nature Tenacity reduction being calculated UPON damage being dealt, and not having it affect HOW MUCH damage is calculated, it very much does exactly what you are asking. The squishier of a class you are the more Tenacity benefits you, and the tankier you are the less it benefits you.
I refer you to this developer post:
It does not benefit Squishies more than tanks. It gives squishies a larger raw damage reduction, true, but in terms of % reduced and % of effective health you gain, it comes out even.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
I do really like the direction they are taking with tenacity and pvp. Are there other ways to accomplish the same thing? Yes, but not without drastic changes to PVE as well...
The tenacity/CC resist/crit issues however that tenacity brings into this game without balancing a few things really gives me caution to say the least.
Part of the issue, honestly, is that TRs are being pushed more and more into a "perma" based roll, and I would really love to see that build reduced in effectiveness and more "lashing blade" builds rolled out.
I was the one that mentioned putting the "stealth bonus" for lashing blade = a 50% reduced CD instead of a 100% chance to crit. I think that would be a start.
The nerf to Impact seems a little too harsh. With tenacity AND crit resist impact is already losing some effectiveness, maybe just cut the charges down to 2 but keep the damage the same, this would still give it a heavy hit.
I dont know why they just dont bring back the idea that at wills use a SMALL percentage of stealth meter in stealth. They tried to roll this out once before and it failed because they made it hurt stealth just a tad too much...
CWs rely heavily on control to stay alive in pvp. I know tenacity will help this alot, however I would love to see more control/ability in their viable arsenal... With all the resist they really dont have much to "survive" even with tenacity.
Heck if GWFs are "immune" to control effects with tab, maybe spell mastery CC gets an "anti-immune" effect or something...
Overall the changes are good, but they really need to take the next step and balance some of the class abilities as well....
Feedback:
My CW on the other hand, using the absolute same enchants in pvp was unable to even put a dent into anything, the damage wasn't as much of a problem as being able to survive long enough to cause enough of that damage. With 30.5k Hp, 20% tenacity and about 30ish% defence using r7s/normals I was unable to fight my opponents at all... My control powers were either failing or had their duration reduced and 99% of my time I was just fighting for my life and not my opponents. I feel like something has to be done about the state of CWs before this goes live, currently I am the weakest target defencewise like before but also lack the control abilities and the burst I once had. I feel like I gained nothing from tenacity. Let me expand, yes I can survive longer than 1 rotation but EVERY other class can survive A LOT longer than 1 rotation, while CWs got +1 eery other class got +5 so its just -4 for me at the end.
Let me also add this: I must say pvp on preview atm feels like TRs vs GWFs with HRs providing some support if they are able to survive, other classes are too insignificant to make any huge impact on the battlefield
This. 100% agree.
The devs succeeded in their goal of eliminating single rotation kills, but when it now takes 2 rotations (gasp) to kill a CW, while a CW needs 4-5 rotations (which is practically impossible since all of our CC is now either immuned or cut on duration) to kill another class, it's severely imbalanced.
As it is on live, CW lack appropriate defenses for pvp -- we are a 1 rotation kill unlike most, but are able to make up for this with burst, CCs, and by playing the Regen/HP game. By taking away all of these things, and adding defenses to all classes instead of selectively adding to classes that actually need it, Tenacity has essentially exacerbated the fact that CW are the weakest.
The devs succeeded in their goal of eliminating single rotation kills, but when it now takes 2 rotations (gasp) to kill a CW, while a CW needs 4-5 rotations (which is practically impossible since all of our CC is now either immuned or cut on duration) to kill another class, it's severely imbalanced.
As it is on live, CW lack appropriate defenses for pvp -- we are a 1 rotation kill unlike most, but are able to make up for this with burst, CCs, and by playing the Regen/HP game. By taking away all of these things, and adding defenses to all classes instead of selectively adding to classes that actually need it, Tenacity has essentially exacerbated the fact that CW are the weakest.
Not exactly what I meant, I feel like I could be useful even with the current damage IF ONLY I had room to breathe... We need utility that would increase our survival, I'm not asking to become as hard as mail/plate classes or a sneaky,dodging, agile rogue. I want a wizard-y way of staying alive, I don't mind sacrificing 1 power slot to cast shield IF, for example damage absorb of the first hit after casting the shield gets bumped so that it swallows most of the initial hit(only in pvp of course) or every time the absord portion of the shield is up we get a 30-40ish% prone resistance chance(only in pvp ofc) now that would absolutely put everything in the right place. CWs who want to be glass canons can still be glass canons but some us may choose to sacrifice part of our damage for a bit more mage-y type of survivability.
Added: from the other pvp matches I played on the preview, rest of the classes seem to have been fine survivalwise, DCs as useless as they currently are can still facetank damage with enough defense, tho they are the close second to CWs in being punching bags and die quick. TRs and GWFs if played right have the highest survival, GWFs are pure facetank and once you prone them its game over for them. Geared TR is nearly unkillable if semi-stealth spec and invulnerable in perma-stealth specs. GFs can swallow a lot of damage but their own damage is laughable so everybody just leaves them for last and they bring nothing but CC into the battle atm, their CC is very good for taking out GWFs and attempting to chase TRs. Unfortunately, with crazy utility of TRs and Tenacity unless a player facetanks and stays until you kill him or is CC'd and burnt down by your team, at around 30% its very easy for them to run away restealth/reheal and come back in 20sec with about 60% HP.
Added again: Jay, you need to understand selective buffs for classes wont resolve the issue because we will simply end up with huge imbalance again even if it is in CWs favour, it is also hard to determine which classes "deserve" to get defense boosts and even harder to test and balance out. The solution, needs to address issue with our class, which is squishiness after tenacity without affecting other classes or their mechanics otherwise we are right back at the beginning and have to balance everything out yet again.
so i didn't read all the pages, but why healin depression should affect lifesteal ? i mean is ok with regeneration but why with lifesteal?, and if u really wanted to make someth with gwf senti build , u should've lower his HP from 40khp to 30k hp, that way he can be killed... but whatsover... u made tenacity for pvp ? that's useless, why should u do special "uniforms" is there a rule, if u want to be good in pvp go with tenacity bro, be a communist, well it kinda sux imo .. only ones who have to win over this are tr that are perma, and gwf with heroic duelist set, but then again, probably even their bonus is affected by healin depresion.. pff .. that's sad... and come to think of it, many of us spended alot of timin doin DD to farm our sets, and putted our points/boons/feats in a way that could help us, and now, if we want to benefit tenacity we should respec and go all over again... what if i want to be pve/pvp viable, then i can't..
Shocking execution cannot be deflected, mitigated, guarded
You misunderstand me, I said in order; Lashing Blade can be deflected; Ice Knife can be mitigated; Shocking execution can be guarded. I will edit the original post to reflect more clarity.
As far as replicating your test results is concerned, I remain unconvinced that the best-in-slot dps TR can out damage a BiS crit-dps GWF. Here is additional feedback coming from an Executioner spec Combat TR;
Both on Live and PTR, I redistributed my stats to achieve 44% deflect 33% resistance, 10% run speed siphon on crit, feated 3 dodge rolls and added Deft Strike to my rotation. These stats don't take into account my 20% Tenacity bonus on PTR yet. This is also the current build of my TR on Live.
Feedback:
The added mitigation and higher deflection chance can almost negate the danger of a crit-burst GWF, which can be a picture of balance. The improved mobility is what convinces me that the OP in GWF lays in their kiting. Threat Rush, prones and sprint create a powerful synergy (one might say too powerful) that is difficult for any other class to outmaneuver. No other offense class besides the TR can spec into full mobility. Even then, the combat TR won't outlast an equally geared and skilled GWF enough to stalemate, much less defeat him.
The TR and CW are the two primary burst type classes. They should have the right to bring down the strongest armored opponent. If not them, nobody else can.
It undermines all sense of balance that the strongest defense class does not compensate in offense.
You misunderstand me, I said in order; Lashing Blade can be deflected; Ice Knife can be mitigated; Shocking execution can be guarded. I will edit the original post to reflect more clarity.
As far as replicating your test results is concerned, I remain unconvinced that the best-in-slot dps TR can out damage a BiS crit-dps GWF. Here is additional feedback coming from an Executioner spec Combat TR;
Both on Live and PTR, I redistributed my stats to achieve 44% deflect 33% resistance, 10% run speed siphon on crit, feated 3 dodge rolls and added Deft Strike to my rotation. These stats don't take into account my 20% Tenacity bonus on PTR yet. This is also the current build of my TR on Live.
Feedback:
The added mitigation and higher deflection chance can almost negate the danger of a crit-burst GWF, which can be a picture of balance. The improved mobility is what convinces me that the OP in GWF lays in their kiting. Threat Rush, prones and sprint create a powerful synergy (one might say too powerful) that is difficult for any other class to outmaneuver. No other offense class besides the TR can spec into full mobility. Even then, the combat TR won't outlast an equally geared and skilled GWF enough to stalemate, much less defeat him.
The TR and CW are the two primary burst type classes. They should have the right to bring down the strongest armored opponent. If not them, nobody else can.
It undermines all sense of balance that the strongest defense class does not compensate in offense.
Honestly, I will keep saying this until it gets fixed. Part of the biggest issue with PvP a the moment, as people have highlighted in this thread is CWs CC and how they cant really kite a GWF, or any class for that matter. Threat rush is partly to blame so is sprint etc but the main reason GWFs are so powerful is the complete utter reliance on Unstoppable.
Unstoppable gives insane DR, CC immunity. When a GWF has this ability every few seconds that is what creates imbalance.
Is it imbalanced that he can rush you as a melee class both sprint and threatrush? Not really.
Is it imbalanced that he can ranged prone you for like 1 second (on PTR) with frontline? Not really in all truth...
Is it imbalanced that a GWF (damage dealing class) can deal good damage in melee range? Not really...
So what makes those things above imbalanced? And causes classes like a TR AND CW to feel like they deal no damage?
What makes it feel like a CW cant CC, cant kite, and a TR cant try and use "tricks" to face a GWF in a combat scenario?
1 Thing: UNSTOPPABLE
If you make determination gained based upon PERCENTAGE of HP lost, rather than just damage taken, you will take a HUGE step in balancing the class.
I will tell you from my tenacity experience on the PTR, because of the added DR I get to use unstoppable what feels like alot less... BUT when watching my HP go down, it hardly moves at all so I dont mind it taking a tad longer because of the DR boost.
What this really made me realize is that ALOT of the pvp problems come from High HP Sentinels being able to pop unstoppable while only losing around 10% of their HP.
The reason thats a problem is not just because the temp HP, the heal, the immunity to CC/prones, its a problem because it happens TOO much.
There is THREE ways to fix this issue that will fix ALOT in pvp without breaking the class.
Either A) Make Unstoppable based on PERCENTAGE of HP lost. This means unstoppable will not synergize as well as it does now with high HP characters. They will have to take more damage before unstoppable is available making them MORE kite-able and more prone-able and the window to DPS them down increases
ALL while making LOWER hp specs (like Destroyer) actually stronger since they now take LESS overall damage and HP lost to have unstoppable available. Who knows, you may actually see Destroyer specs come out of the woodwork with this change.
OR!
Reduce the effects of unstoppable to a CC/Prone RESIST not immunity. This allows even the tankiest unstoppable GWF to be controlled but at a diminished capacity. The issue here would be tenacity already reduces CC so the effects would be so minuscule that I dont think it would help, THEN youd have to buff non-sent survivability since they rely on unstoppable so much.
C) Give unstoppable a "recharge" instead of being based on damage taken, its a meter that slowly regens, like stealth but IN combat instead of out of combat. The longer a GWF is "in combat" the meter builds, regardless of damage taken. Once available, its popped and the same effects happen as now, once its over if you maintain "combat" status, you continue to regen the "determination" meter....
This also removes the synergy with high HP GWFs versus low HP ones. This would require a balance within a really fine line however to work.
Too long of a recharge and its too weak, too short a recharge and too strong...
Once the GWF is fixed based on one of three methods above, the "perma" TR build is the only thing that cries out "imbalance!" and should be looked at.
Honestly, I will keep saying this until it gets fixed. Part of the biggest issue with PvP a the moment, as people have highlighted in this thread is CWs CC and how they cant really kite a GWF, or any class for that matter. Threat rush is partly to blame so is sprint etc but the main reason GWFs are so powerful is the complete utter reliance on Unstoppable.
Unstoppable gives insane DR, CC immunity. When a GWF has this ability every few seconds that is what creates imbalance.
Is it imbalanced that he can rush you as a melee class both sprint and threatrush? Not really.
Is it imbalanced that he can ranged prone you for like 1 second (on PTR) with frontline? Not really in all truth...
Is it imbalanced that a GWF (damage dealing class) can deal good damage in melee range? Not really...
So what makes those things above imbalanced? And causes classes like a TR AND CW to feel like they deal no damage?
What makes it feel like a CW cant CC, cant kite, and a TR cant try and use "tricks" to face a GWF in a combat scenario?
1 Thing: UNSTOPPABLE
If you make determination gained based upon PERCENTAGE of HP lost, rather than just damage taken, you will take a HUGE step in balancing the class.
I will tell you from my tenacity experience on the PTR, because of the added DR I get to use unstoppable what feels like alot less... BUT when watching my HP go down, it hardly moves at all so I dont mind it taking a tad longer because of the DR boost.
What this really made me realize is that ALOT of the pvp problems come from High HP Sentinels being able to pop unstoppable while only losing around 10% of their HP.
The reason thats a problem is not just because the temp HP, the heal, the immunity to CC/prones, its a problem because it happens TOO much.
There is THREE ways to fix this issue that will fix ALOT in pvp without breaking the class.
Either A) Make Unstoppable based on PERCENTAGE of HP lost. This means unstoppable will not synergize as well as it does now with high HP characters. They will have to take more damage before unstoppable is available making them MORE kite-able and more prone-able and the window to DPS them down increases
ALL while making LOWER hp specs (like Destroyer) actually stronger since they now take LESS overall damage and HP lost to have unstoppable available. Who knows, you may actually see Destroyer specs come out of the woodwork with this change.
OR!
Reduce the effects of unstoppable to a CC/Prone RESIST not immunity. This allows even the tankiest unstoppable GWF to be controlled but at a diminished capacity. The issue here would be tenacity already reduces CC so the effects would be so minuscule that I dont think it would help, THEN youd have to buff non-sent survivability since they rely on unstoppable so much.
C) Give unstoppable a "recharge" instead of being based on damage taken, its a meter that slowly regens, like stealth but IN combat instead of out of combat. The longer a GWF is "in combat" the meter builds, regardless of damage taken. Once available, its popped and the same effects happen as now, once its over if you maintain "combat" status, you continue to regen the "determination" meter....
This also removes the synergy with high HP GWFs versus low HP ones. This would require a balance within a really fine line however to work.
Too long of a recharge and its too weak, too short a recharge and too strong...
Once the GWF is fixed based on one of three methods above, the "perma" TR build is the only thing that cries out "imbalance!" and should be looked at.
So your method is to delete the class? Yeah that doesn't sound good to me.
So your method is to delete the class? Yeah that doesn't sound good to me.
This player clearly does not have much incite into not only other classes play, but also GWF.
Heres a fact.
On my Sent GWF, I lose about 10% HP and then heal 5%, become immune to CC, am WAY about the DR cap and then come out, lose another 10%, heal 5% immune to CC etc...
If you think thats balanced then I really have nothing to say to you. Suggesting moving it to merely a percentage of HP lost rather than just a flat after DR number is by NO means "deleting the class". Its really just laughable when players post things like that.
A destroyer stands no chance in PVP since by the time they lose their 5k HP to pop unstoppable, they have lost sometimes over 25% of their HP, why can a Sent lose about 10% AND heal 5% where a destroyer loses 25% and heals nothing...
Moving it to a simple % of HP lost (around 20%) only SLITGHLY reduces the effectiveness of Sentinel HP stacked GWFs while balancing ALL the other GWFs. It also lends itself to less geared players who may even be Sent. Now that 32k GWF will have to lose less HP in comparison to a 38k GWF to gain unstoppable.
What this does is ensure that atleast some % of HP is lost inbetween unstoppable pops. 20% seems a rounded number, not too much, not too little.
On a 38k GWF 20% = 7.6k HP lost for a 50% unstoppable. On a 25k HP GWF 20% = 5k HP lost. If the heal and temp HP are all based on a percentage of health... the determination gain should be as well.
GWF will still be arguably one of the strongest pvp classes in the game.
You misunderstand me, I said in order; Lashing Blade can be deflected; Ice Knife can be mitigated; Shocking execution can be guarded. I will edit the original post to reflect more clarity.
As far as replicating your test results is concerned, I remain unconvinced that the best-in-slot dps TR can out damage a BiS crit-dps GWF. Here is additional feedback coming from an Executioner spec Combat TR;
Both on Live and PTR, I redistributed my stats to achieve 44% deflect 33% resistance, 10% run speed siphon on crit, feated 3 dodge rolls and added Deft Strike to my rotation. These stats don't take into account my 20% Tenacity bonus on PTR yet. This is also the current build of my TR on Live.
Feedback:
The added mitigation and higher deflection chance can almost negate the danger of a crit-burst GWF, which can be a picture of balance. The improved mobility is what convinces me that the OP in GWF lays in their kiting. Threat Rush, prones and sprint create a powerful synergy (one might say too powerful) that is difficult for any other class to outmaneuver. No other offense class besides the TR can spec into full mobility. Even then, the combat TR won't outlast an equally geared and skilled GWF enough to stalemate, much less defeat him.
The TR and CW are the two primary burst type classes. They should have the right to bring down the strongest armored opponent. If not them, nobody else can.
It undermines all sense of balance that the strongest defense class does not compensate in offense.
Have you, I don't know ever tried of NOT seeking fights with GWFs? your biggest anti-class. Does a CW run around domination seeking TRs? no, in fact any semi-decent CW is always looking behind his back even when he is around allies because he knows Tr can pop any second and the CW is always prepared to blink. Ever thought of playing like that instead of facetanking the hard-hitting GWF? maybe you should leave GWF to other fighter classes like GWFs and GFs who can swallow all that CRAZY 5-8k crits(OMG!) and facetank their damage and instead stop acting like a heavy defence class and start acting like a leatherwearing class?
Yes a non-spasticated TR can outdamage GWF easily, than again it seems most GWFs aren't as thick and prefer to hit the squishiest targets first instead of concentrating on other fighters while TR players seem to attack indiscriminately any target they see instead of hunting down wizards, HRs and clerics. On a target with the same armour rogues would out dmg/burst any other class on preview.
IF CWs and TRs are the main burst classes why dont CWs currently have any burst on preview? Why do they die so much quicker than any other supposedly "squishy" classes and why do all their skills hit/crit almost 2x weaker(11k Ice Knife kkthxbye) than the other burst class ?
"They should have the right to bring down the strongest armored opponent."
That's the biggest issue in my understanding. Like the previous guy, ironically also a TR who posted that he is "entitled" to the highest DPS and enough defense to facetank everybody else. I think you guys need to understand something that apart from having the right to play this game you haven't got right to anything else.
Why don't you just do everybody a favour and delete your GWF and play your "other" more favourite class instead of posting non-constructive calls of nerfs just because you don't like being killed by GWFs in pvp?
Why don't you just do everybody a favour and delete your GWF and play your "other" more favourite class instead of posting non-constructive calls of nerfs just because you don't like being killed by GWFs in pvp?
Ok this made me chuckle.
Ayroux's Gwf has always been and always will be his main. Unlike some people, he is more concerned with Balance accross the board between all the classes then have a constant switching FOTM be all and end all class.
Despite what you may think.
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Ayroux's Gwf has always been and always will be his main. Unlike some people, he is more concerned with Balance accross the board between all the classes then have a constant switching FOTM be all and end all class.
Despite what you may think.
Well he has zero understanding of it then. He may care about it but he can't comprehend what his changes would actually do. He has an extreme lack of foresight.
Ayroux's Gwf has always been and always will be his main. Unlike some people, he is more concerned with Balance accross the board between all the classes then have a constant switching FOTM be all and end all class.
Despite what you may think.
And he just happens to only complain about nerfing GWFs and buffing TRs. Because DCs,GFs and especially CWs definitely don't have more issues than TRs with extremely low performance(both defensively and offensively in the case of CW). He's one of the biggest "baff rog, i wants du be ovapaward" TR lobbyists on the forums
And he just happens to only complain about nerfing GWFs and buffing TRs. Because DCs,GFs and especially CWs definitely don't have more issues than TRs with extremely low performance(both defensively and offensively in the case of CW). He's one of the biggest "baff rog, i wants du be ovapaward" TR lobbyists on the forums
Can you show me anywhere I said to buff TRs? Pretty sure ive been talking about stealth at wills need to use stealth meter...
The suggestion to make unstoppable a percentage of HP rather than a flat number has been mentioned and discussed by ALOT of people, I just keep bringing it up.
With the changes on the PTR GWF/TR remain on top as the PVP Gods. When I play with other geared skilled players on the PTR (as you can see from my videos) CWs dont stand a chance especially with their CC nerfed to kingdom come.
Ive been playing this game since OB. Ive been playing my GWF for almost a year now, as much as I want MY class to be the OP one, its been the OP one for the last 8 months and quite honestly its just stupid how easy I can faceroll almost any class on it.
If you think the class is balanced. Please lets set up a time to 1v1. Ill 1v1 you on my GF or GWF I dont care and then you will see... Either your not using your GWF right and thus think he is balanced, OR you are using him right and then your just being stubborn not wanting your faceroll class toned back to a true balanced class.
As of now, the only two classes that really need a tone down are the GWF and TR. They are on live and will continue to be so on the PTR.
DCs need a buff, hands down. If you look at the official thread I have posted many times about how healing depression is WAY overboard and needs to be cut back. Also discussed how righteousness should be cut in half.
For CW I mentioned making their Spell Mastery slot - when slotted with CC, have an anti-immune CC effect meaning it can be used on anyone/anything.
HRs I think are already pretty strong class and dont need much tweaking.
So when you say ive only been talking about GWFs I just laugh. Here ill sum it up for you:
GWF - OP atm needs a tone down (unstop as % of HP)
TR - stealth needs a tone down (at wills should drop stealth meter slightly)
DC - righteousness cut in half
CW - a guaranteed CC ability
GF - are getting the changes they need on the PTR
HR - are pretty balanced atm imo. Only thing Id change is the final archer mastery feat and EITHER make the guarantee crit ONLY affect encounters with no CD, or add a small CD of say 5 seconds but put ANY ability can affect it.
Healing Depression - needs to be cut in half as well. Regen stat needs to (ontop of healing depression) be reduced about 25% flat out. The end result is about a 50% nerf to regen on the PTR and only now a 25% healing depression, when combined with righteousness halved, it puts DCs healing ability on themselves about where it is on live.
Again, dont think your GWF is OP? Maybe your just bad?
GWF - OP atm needs a tone down (unstop as % of HP)
TR - stealth needs a tone down (at wills should drop stealth meter slightly)
DC - righteousness cut in half
CW - a guaranteed CC ability
GF - are getting the changes they need on the PTR
HR - are pretty balanced atm imo. Only thing Id change is the final archer mastery feat and EITHER make the guarantee crit ONLY affect encounters with no CD, or add a small CD of say 5 seconds but put ANY ability can affect it.
Healing Depression - needs to be cut in half as well. Regen stat needs to (ontop of healing depression) be reduced about 25% flat out. The end result is about a 50% nerf to regen on the PTR and only now a 25% healing depression, when combined with righteousness
I've seen you actively post on Tr class forums. And the nerf to GWFs benefits TRs more than any other class, cz i haz op dps i wants hai nambaz facetank the actual tanks and win!!! In fact about 99% of nerf callers are TRs with a veeery occasional CW in the mix, so you get the drill, those fanboys reeeeeally want to be OP, like really really, more than anything. 200% of your posts revolve around nerfing GWf, even tho DC and CW are in a dire state atm.
1st of all I played my GWF since September and my main is CW. The GWf i leveled from 11 to 60 solely on PvP without OP enchants and looooong before Mod 2 hit, this character is 100% spec'd and fought them all. No veteran gear R10s or perfects. Just a casual player with decent gear who fought against them all pugs/premades/heavy zen buyers/you name them I fought against them. I got the titles and tried many different playstyles, so yes, I am somehow qualified to comment on my GWF and judging by the results I am not "bad" like you put it.
Regarding the changes u suggest:
GWF Unstop- this one sounds ok to but EVERY single other change u proposed on GWF was outright ridiculous.
TR: this will never be done(remmeber Mod 1), too many TRs and too many of them buy a lot of zen to insta tune their "hai nambaz i haz skillzors" class
DC: that's a starts
CW: I could see that working if it only affected Repel or something but otherwise it wont fix a lot- stack recovery, slot EF, oh so you want to go into guard,nope... Unstoppable? that lasts 4-8sec? nope Itc has 4 sec duration and 15sec CD? dont care... So instead of being steamrolled by other classes let's buff CWs(and yes my main is CW so that would be sweeeeeeeeet) and make them roflstomp others... Thx Jeff, but no thanks. Need more defense than anything, maybe arpen added to one of the less used stats
GF:fear my 2k hits and my mighty 15% crit... Good CC but can't do squat apart from that. Forever a support class.
HR: never played them, only issue I have is the buggy vines but damage seems ok only if nobody interrupts them
Healing Depression: nerf to 25% nobody with DC ever dies... 33-5%% is the lowest it can be reduced to. Regen can't be nerfed cause its also a PvE stat and 90% of playerbase is purely PvE
Ive been playing this game since OB. Ive been playing my GWF for almost a year now, as much as I want MY class to be the OP one, its been the OP one for the last 8 months and quite honestly its just stupid how easy I can faceroll almost any class on it.
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Since OB huh?
1 year on ur GWF?
Why don't you just do everybody a favour and delete your GWF and play your "other" more favourite class instead of posting non-constructive calls of nerfs just because you don't like being killed by GWFs in pvp?
ayroux has one of the best PvP GWFs in the game. You know, the type that owns 3 people and takes with them the 4th as they die... if they do
You people cannot comprehend some guys actually care about balance more than their OPness.
And this is not the first instance. Back a few months, ayroux campaigned against tenes, just as he had invested millions AD in 7 GTEs.
ayroux has one of the best PvP GWFs in the game. You know, the type that owns 3 people and takes with them the 4th as they die... if they do
You people cannot comprehend some guys actually care about balance more than their OPness.
And this is not the first instance. Back a few months, ayroux campaigned against tenes, just as he had invested millions AD in 7 GTEs.
This should tell you something about the person.
That's the problem though, he only gets the pvp. He may be the greatest person in the world, he may be the best pvper in the world. But his idea's don't take into account that there is more to the game than pvp alone. This game has more zones than PE and the battlegrounds. His ideas only take into account those.
Comments
The 75% deflection severity always bugged me. It should be 25%, not any higher since the class has godmode every 15 seconds already along with mini godmode (dodges) and is obviously wearing leather, not scale or plate. Another strange design flaw is the increased run speed in stealth. In every other mmo out there if a rogue uses stealth they become slower, not faster. It should be -50% run speed while being stealthed. The biggest TR design flaw to me is the fact, that they deal over the top damage while being visible. It should be decreased by -40-50% while being visible and only get to 100% from stealth. But yeah, judging the great developer feedback about how to "balance" GWF, i am quite sure they have already nice things planned for the rogues,too.
Tenacity in the case of TR is a good thing, not the best way to adjust balance but it is a start.
If you are being proned down from 100% to 0% by GWF I suggest you acquire some gear with tenacity, at 20% tenacity the most geared P.vorpal GWF with an improved mark/3x SoS and 5xWM(and if you allowed him to achieve that then he deserves to kill you) can at the very best bring a TR down to about 45% but ONLY if the daily is up and EVERYTHING crits.
Secondly, you have stated yourself that TRs have the most utility moves and then you finish your post with "we deserve to have burst more than any class". So you want most utility and most damage? I'm pretty sure that is the reason for these changes and the reason why TRs have been overpowered since the beta.
Then you wrote "We are supposed to be able to kill an enemy target more quickly than any other class." Yes, burst classes like CWs have a much higher damage than others, and yes TRs damage is very high but another feature those burst classes have is extremely low defences, which does not apply to TRs. If you want more damage then I suggest changes to how quick stamina refills on a TR(currently feated its the quickest of all classes), changes to deflect severity, and reduction of stealth to 6 seconds and removal of ITC damage reduction. That would definitely balance things out.
You also want prones on your skills? Ever heard of Dazing strike? 2x quicker from stealth, longest CC out there, but wait it actually hits as hard as Frontline Surge after its damage got reduced by 25%. Ok, so let me get this straight? You want to have the quickest/highest burst because you "deserve it", you want to have utility and defence, you want to able to burst down CWs, DCs and tank spec GWFs alike and not be tossed by GFs who hit for nothing(lololol 5k bullrush) and have like under 10% crit chance on preview atm while a TR can jump around and eat him slowly.
Sounds balanced.
25%?
Actually, I agree TRs shouldn't be allowed to kill anything there should be a button that you click when u see a TR that automatically kills them. This is an easier solution and in line with your suggestions
I have a 16k sent with only a greater vorpal and I prone ppl from 100% to 0 ALL THE TIME on live. haven't tried it on test yet.
And yes, we are the low armor dps melee class, we are entitled to the most burst dps. everyone knows this. Who cares about utility when the moves themselves suck. Utility as in we have a move that will teleport us to enemies, but the damage is too low and is a waste of an encounter slot. Maybe 3-5% of TRs use it. We have another move that removes enemy armor but needs to be applied 5 times for max ArP and stays on for only seconds. It would be too hard to use in pvp and no TRs use it. Those are the sort of utility moves im talking about, we have them but none of them are very powerful and ultimately we only have 3 encounter slots so at max we would used one utility move.
Extremely low defenses doesn't apply to TRs? That's news to me...What made you think that?
Is it the low armor class? the low hp? the low damage resistance? the fact that none of our gear have regen?
You can reduce stealth length after you get it through your head that I don't even use stealth in combat. If I can I will start off in stealth but that's it, all stealth reduction would do is trivialize the class completely and make TRs become weak dagger wielding warriors. What your not seeming to understand is that stealth TR dps is pathetic. You need to slot shadow strike, invest in int, and invest heavily into recovery. All of that dramatically takes away from damage. On top of that, u cant use encounters only at-wills
If your character isn't strong enough to survive the nerfed 8 charge dagger throw then u need to find a new game.
Dazing strike is bugged and cant que anymore. Its the reason I forgot the move even existed.
Feating stamina means lowering dps significantly. Also, CWs have 3 dodges while HRs have a bugged root move and can hit from far away. Again, why should those classes have the same stamina regen?
If you want a facetanker with highest burst and be able to beat every other class, because ur entitled, I suggest you go look for another game
Despite the fact that your class has an inbuilt function to get within range to burst Said Cw down, 75 % deflection Severity - It is extremely easy to stack high Deflect on TRs - Alysin Chains was running around with 41-42% awhile back.
Then you have ITC. Which not only gives you 100% deflection chance for 4 seconds (Oh look my damage does sweet F all to you in that 4 second window), but also makes you immune to CC - the ONLY other defence a CW has against any Melee Class.
Now, here is what else happens during that 4 second window - Usually, as an executioner, the Cw is getting crit for anwehere between 9-14k with Impact shot. On live, with 3 charges. Even Averaged at the lowest of 9k on live at the moment, that still only leaves my Cw with 4k Hp left from the 31k I started the fight with.
Now I am not saying that this happens all the time, because I have beaten my fair share of rogues, and only really struggle at the moment with the Perma Perfect bilethorns.
Please step down off your High horse. You claim that TRs have little to no survivability, but my Cw would love to have even half of what is available to you.
Stacking Deflect on a Cw can push you to max around 15% Deflect (Which lets be honest, is neglible), without having to sacrifice our defense slots which already are needed to Slot Hp for Deflect.
You think your TR is squishy? I can assure you, my Cw is currently 5 times more squishy purely from defensive stat layout and base defensive stats on gear.
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
Players have clearly asked for specifics to be added to pvp, those being effective matchmaking, more maps, more modes, and sets with varied stats to allow creative build development for all classes. I really hope that these problems have been addressed (apparently Elo is coming), but are just not released onto preview yet, and that Tenacity was the most iffy new development in the devs minds, thus inspiring them to have us test it.
Second, I play as a CW in pvp, and my experience on preview testing Tenacity was not fun. I would much rather have the 'balance' remain as it is in live and see Tenacity changed to treat classes differently, ie. balance them. As a CW, high burst is basically the only reason we make it in pvp -- bursting down targets quickly is our 'thing' and it is now completely crippled by everyone's increased DR and Crit DR.
Sure, we have controls but already at high level competition on live the EF duration is laughable, and this is further diminished by the CC Resistance given to all by Tenacity. Our go to passive and other main reason pvp is possible, EoS, is also severely crippled by Crit DR. The Defense given by Tenacity is not enough to prevent other classes from reaching high dps on us, but yet it has completely nerfed our damage output. Also, to be competitive in pvp, high Regen is a must for CWs but the value of this is also being nerfed.
I really think this whole, 'let's apply the same 'fix' to everyone' approach is flawed -- there is nothing wrong with nerfing some classes while buffing others to effectively balance gameplay. By varying the amount of DR and crit DR each class receives from Tenacity, this may be accomplished and could be done for Healing Depression as well.
To make Tenacity an actual balance, the DR should only be applied to classes that need it (squishy), this way the damage to classes with high defensive stats is not crippled in general, but crits are still toned down a bit. The devs have said that they would like pvp to be less about bursting people down in single rotations, which only happens to the squishy classes (when has a good DC/GWF/GF been downed in one rotation?), so if you would like longer and more skill-oriented fights -- throw us a bone!
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Due to the nature Tenacity reduction being calculated UPON damage being dealt, and not having it affect HOW MUCH damage is calculated, it very much does exactly what you are asking. The squishier of a class you are the more Tenacity benefits you, and the tankier you are the less it benefits you.
I refer you to this developer post:
It does not benefit Squishies more than tanks. It gives squishies a larger raw damage reduction, true, but in terms of % reduced and % of effective health you gain, it comes out even.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
I do really like the direction they are taking with tenacity and pvp. Are there other ways to accomplish the same thing? Yes, but not without drastic changes to PVE as well...
The tenacity/CC resist/crit issues however that tenacity brings into this game without balancing a few things really gives me caution to say the least.
Part of the issue, honestly, is that TRs are being pushed more and more into a "perma" based roll, and I would really love to see that build reduced in effectiveness and more "lashing blade" builds rolled out.
I was the one that mentioned putting the "stealth bonus" for lashing blade = a 50% reduced CD instead of a 100% chance to crit. I think that would be a start.
The nerf to Impact seems a little too harsh. With tenacity AND crit resist impact is already losing some effectiveness, maybe just cut the charges down to 2 but keep the damage the same, this would still give it a heavy hit.
I dont know why they just dont bring back the idea that at wills use a SMALL percentage of stealth meter in stealth. They tried to roll this out once before and it failed because they made it hurt stealth just a tad too much...
CWs rely heavily on control to stay alive in pvp. I know tenacity will help this alot, however I would love to see more control/ability in their viable arsenal... With all the resist they really dont have much to "survive" even with tenacity.
Heck if GWFs are "immune" to control effects with tab, maybe spell mastery CC gets an "anti-immune" effect or something...
Overall the changes are good, but they really need to take the next step and balance some of the class abilities as well....
This. 100% agree.
The devs succeeded in their goal of eliminating single rotation kills, but when it now takes 2 rotations (gasp) to kill a CW, while a CW needs 4-5 rotations (which is practically impossible since all of our CC is now either immuned or cut on duration) to kill another class, it's severely imbalanced.
As it is on live, CW lack appropriate defenses for pvp -- we are a 1 rotation kill unlike most, but are able to make up for this with burst, CCs, and by playing the Regen/HP game. By taking away all of these things, and adding defenses to all classes instead of selectively adding to classes that actually need it, Tenacity has essentially exacerbated the fact that CW are the weakest.
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Not exactly what I meant, I feel like I could be useful even with the current damage IF ONLY I had room to breathe... We need utility that would increase our survival, I'm not asking to become as hard as mail/plate classes or a sneaky,dodging, agile rogue. I want a wizard-y way of staying alive, I don't mind sacrificing 1 power slot to cast shield IF, for example damage absorb of the first hit after casting the shield gets bumped so that it swallows most of the initial hit(only in pvp of course) or every time the absord portion of the shield is up we get a 30-40ish% prone resistance chance(only in pvp ofc) now that would absolutely put everything in the right place. CWs who want to be glass canons can still be glass canons but some us may choose to sacrifice part of our damage for a bit more mage-y type of survivability.
Added: from the other pvp matches I played on the preview, rest of the classes seem to have been fine survivalwise, DCs as useless as they currently are can still facetank damage with enough defense, tho they are the close second to CWs in being punching bags and die quick. TRs and GWFs if played right have the highest survival, GWFs are pure facetank and once you prone them its game over for them. Geared TR is nearly unkillable if semi-stealth spec and invulnerable in perma-stealth specs. GFs can swallow a lot of damage but their own damage is laughable so everybody just leaves them for last and they bring nothing but CC into the battle atm, their CC is very good for taking out GWFs and attempting to chase TRs. Unfortunately, with crazy utility of TRs and Tenacity unless a player facetanks and stays until you kill him or is CC'd and burnt down by your team, at around 30% its very easy for them to run away restealth/reheal and come back in 20sec with about 60% HP.
Added again: Jay, you need to understand selective buffs for classes wont resolve the issue because we will simply end up with huge imbalance again even if it is in CWs favour, it is also hard to determine which classes "deserve" to get defense boosts and even harder to test and balance out. The solution, needs to address issue with our class, which is squishiness after tenacity without affecting other classes or their mechanics otherwise we are right back at the beginning and have to balance everything out yet again.
You misunderstand me, I said in order; Lashing Blade can be deflected; Ice Knife can be mitigated; Shocking execution can be guarded. I will edit the original post to reflect more clarity.
As far as replicating your test results is concerned, I remain unconvinced that the best-in-slot dps TR can out damage a BiS crit-dps GWF. Here is additional feedback coming from an Executioner spec Combat TR;
Both on Live and PTR, I redistributed my stats to achieve 44% deflect 33% resistance, 10% run speed siphon on crit, feated 3 dodge rolls and added Deft Strike to my rotation. These stats don't take into account my 20% Tenacity bonus on PTR yet. This is also the current build of my TR on Live.
Feedback:
The added mitigation and higher deflection chance can almost negate the danger of a crit-burst GWF, which can be a picture of balance. The improved mobility is what convinces me that the OP in GWF lays in their kiting. Threat Rush, prones and sprint create a powerful synergy (one might say too powerful) that is difficult for any other class to outmaneuver. No other offense class besides the TR can spec into full mobility. Even then, the combat TR won't outlast an equally geared and skilled GWF enough to stalemate, much less defeat him.
The TR and CW are the two primary burst type classes. They should have the right to bring down the strongest armored opponent. If not them, nobody else can.
It undermines all sense of balance that the strongest defense class does not compensate in offense.
Honestly, I will keep saying this until it gets fixed. Part of the biggest issue with PvP a the moment, as people have highlighted in this thread is CWs CC and how they cant really kite a GWF, or any class for that matter. Threat rush is partly to blame so is sprint etc but the main reason GWFs are so powerful is the complete utter reliance on Unstoppable.
Unstoppable gives insane DR, CC immunity. When a GWF has this ability every few seconds that is what creates imbalance.
Is it imbalanced that he can rush you as a melee class both sprint and threatrush? Not really.
Is it imbalanced that he can ranged prone you for like 1 second (on PTR) with frontline? Not really in all truth...
Is it imbalanced that a GWF (damage dealing class) can deal good damage in melee range? Not really...
So what makes those things above imbalanced? And causes classes like a TR AND CW to feel like they deal no damage?
What makes it feel like a CW cant CC, cant kite, and a TR cant try and use "tricks" to face a GWF in a combat scenario?
1 Thing: UNSTOPPABLE
If you make determination gained based upon PERCENTAGE of HP lost, rather than just damage taken, you will take a HUGE step in balancing the class.
I will tell you from my tenacity experience on the PTR, because of the added DR I get to use unstoppable what feels like alot less... BUT when watching my HP go down, it hardly moves at all so I dont mind it taking a tad longer because of the DR boost.
What this really made me realize is that ALOT of the pvp problems come from High HP Sentinels being able to pop unstoppable while only losing around 10% of their HP.
The reason thats a problem is not just because the temp HP, the heal, the immunity to CC/prones, its a problem because it happens TOO much.
There is THREE ways to fix this issue that will fix ALOT in pvp without breaking the class.
Either A) Make Unstoppable based on PERCENTAGE of HP lost. This means unstoppable will not synergize as well as it does now with high HP characters. They will have to take more damage before unstoppable is available making them MORE kite-able and more prone-able and the window to DPS them down increases
ALL while making LOWER hp specs (like Destroyer) actually stronger since they now take LESS overall damage and HP lost to have unstoppable available. Who knows, you may actually see Destroyer specs come out of the woodwork with this change.
OR!
C) Give unstoppable a "recharge" instead of being based on damage taken, its a meter that slowly regens, like stealth but IN combat instead of out of combat. The longer a GWF is "in combat" the meter builds, regardless of damage taken. Once available, its popped and the same effects happen as now, once its over if you maintain "combat" status, you continue to regen the "determination" meter....
This also removes the synergy with high HP GWFs versus low HP ones. This would require a balance within a really fine line however to work.
Too long of a recharge and its too weak, too short a recharge and too strong...
Once the GWF is fixed based on one of three methods above, the "perma" TR build is the only thing that cries out "imbalance!" and should be looked at.
This player clearly does not have much incite into not only other classes play, but also GWF.
Heres a fact.
On my Sent GWF, I lose about 10% HP and then heal 5%, become immune to CC, am WAY about the DR cap and then come out, lose another 10%, heal 5% immune to CC etc...
If you think thats balanced then I really have nothing to say to you. Suggesting moving it to merely a percentage of HP lost rather than just a flat after DR number is by NO means "deleting the class". Its really just laughable when players post things like that.
A destroyer stands no chance in PVP since by the time they lose their 5k HP to pop unstoppable, they have lost sometimes over 25% of their HP, why can a Sent lose about 10% AND heal 5% where a destroyer loses 25% and heals nothing...
Moving it to a simple % of HP lost (around 20%) only SLITGHLY reduces the effectiveness of Sentinel HP stacked GWFs while balancing ALL the other GWFs. It also lends itself to less geared players who may even be Sent. Now that 32k GWF will have to lose less HP in comparison to a 38k GWF to gain unstoppable.
What this does is ensure that atleast some % of HP is lost inbetween unstoppable pops. 20% seems a rounded number, not too much, not too little.
On a 38k GWF 20% = 7.6k HP lost for a 50% unstoppable. On a 25k HP GWF 20% = 5k HP lost. If the heal and temp HP are all based on a percentage of health... the determination gain should be as well.
GWF will still be arguably one of the strongest pvp classes in the game.
Yes a non-spasticated TR can outdamage GWF easily, than again it seems most GWFs aren't as thick and prefer to hit the squishiest targets first instead of concentrating on other fighters while TR players seem to attack indiscriminately any target they see instead of hunting down wizards, HRs and clerics. On a target with the same armour rogues would out dmg/burst any other class on preview.
IF CWs and TRs are the main burst classes why dont CWs currently have any burst on preview? Why do they die so much quicker than any other supposedly "squishy" classes and why do all their skills hit/crit almost 2x weaker(11k Ice Knife kkthxbye) than the other burst class ?
"They should have the right to bring down the strongest armored opponent."
That's the biggest issue in my understanding. Like the previous guy, ironically also a TR who posted that he is "entitled" to the highest DPS and enough defense to facetank everybody else. I think you guys need to understand something that apart from having the right to play this game you haven't got right to anything else.
Why don't you just do everybody a favour and delete your GWF and play your "other" more favourite class instead of posting non-constructive calls of nerfs just because you don't like being killed by GWFs in pvp?
Ok this made me chuckle.
Ayroux's Gwf has always been and always will be his main. Unlike some people, he is more concerned with Balance accross the board between all the classes then have a constant switching FOTM be all and end all class.
Despite what you may think.
19.9k PvP Control Wizard
<Complaints Department>
And he just happens to only complain about nerfing GWFs and buffing TRs. Because DCs,GFs and especially CWs definitely don't have more issues than TRs with extremely low performance(both defensively and offensively in the case of CW). He's one of the biggest "baff rog, i wants du be ovapaward" TR lobbyists on the forums
Can you show me anywhere I said to buff TRs? Pretty sure ive been talking about stealth at wills need to use stealth meter...
The suggestion to make unstoppable a percentage of HP rather than a flat number has been mentioned and discussed by ALOT of people, I just keep bringing it up.
With the changes on the PTR GWF/TR remain on top as the PVP Gods. When I play with other geared skilled players on the PTR (as you can see from my videos) CWs dont stand a chance especially with their CC nerfed to kingdom come.
Ive been playing this game since OB. Ive been playing my GWF for almost a year now, as much as I want MY class to be the OP one, its been the OP one for the last 8 months and quite honestly its just stupid how easy I can faceroll almost any class on it.
If you think the class is balanced. Please lets set up a time to 1v1. Ill 1v1 you on my GF or GWF I dont care and then you will see... Either your not using your GWF right and thus think he is balanced, OR you are using him right and then your just being stubborn not wanting your faceroll class toned back to a true balanced class.
As of now, the only two classes that really need a tone down are the GWF and TR. They are on live and will continue to be so on the PTR.
DCs need a buff, hands down. If you look at the official thread I have posted many times about how healing depression is WAY overboard and needs to be cut back. Also discussed how righteousness should be cut in half.
For CW I mentioned making their Spell Mastery slot - when slotted with CC, have an anti-immune CC effect meaning it can be used on anyone/anything.
HRs I think are already pretty strong class and dont need much tweaking.
So when you say ive only been talking about GWFs I just laugh. Here ill sum it up for you:
GWF - OP atm needs a tone down (unstop as % of HP)
TR - stealth needs a tone down (at wills should drop stealth meter slightly)
DC - righteousness cut in half
CW - a guaranteed CC ability
GF - are getting the changes they need on the PTR
HR - are pretty balanced atm imo. Only thing Id change is the final archer mastery feat and EITHER make the guarantee crit ONLY affect encounters with no CD, or add a small CD of say 5 seconds but put ANY ability can affect it.
Healing Depression - needs to be cut in half as well. Regen stat needs to (ontop of healing depression) be reduced about 25% flat out. The end result is about a 50% nerf to regen on the PTR and only now a 25% healing depression, when combined with righteousness halved, it puts DCs healing ability on themselves about where it is on live.
Again, dont think your GWF is OP? Maybe your just bad?
I've seen you actively post on Tr class forums. And the nerf to GWFs benefits TRs more than any other class, cz i haz op dps i wants hai nambaz facetank the actual tanks and win!!! In fact about 99% of nerf callers are TRs with a veeery occasional CW in the mix, so you get the drill, those fanboys reeeeeally want to be OP, like really really, more than anything. 200% of your posts revolve around nerfing GWf, even tho DC and CW are in a dire state atm.
1st of all I played my GWF since September and my main is CW. The GWf i leveled from 11 to 60 solely on PvP without OP enchants and looooong before Mod 2 hit, this character is 100% spec'd and fought them all. No veteran gear R10s or perfects. Just a casual player with decent gear who fought against them all pugs/premades/heavy zen buyers/you name them I fought against them. I got the titles and tried many different playstyles, so yes, I am somehow qualified to comment on my GWF and judging by the results I am not "bad" like you put it.
Regarding the changes u suggest:
GWF Unstop- this one sounds ok to but EVERY single other change u proposed on GWF was outright ridiculous.
TR: this will never be done(remmeber Mod 1), too many TRs and too many of them buy a lot of zen to insta tune their "hai nambaz i haz skillzors" class
DC: that's a starts
CW: I could see that working if it only affected Repel or something but otherwise it wont fix a lot- stack recovery, slot EF, oh so you want to go into guard,nope... Unstoppable? that lasts 4-8sec? nope Itc has 4 sec duration and 15sec CD? dont care... So instead of being steamrolled by other classes let's buff CWs(and yes my main is CW so that would be sweeeeeeeeet) and make them roflstomp others... Thx Jeff, but no thanks. Need more defense than anything, maybe arpen added to one of the less used stats
GF:fear my 2k hits and my mighty 15% crit... Good CC but can't do squat apart from that. Forever a support class.
HR: never played them, only issue I have is the buggy vines but damage seems ok only if nobody interrupts them
Healing Depression: nerf to 25% nobody with DC ever dies... 33-5%% is the lowest it can be reduced to. Regen can't be nerfed cause its also a PvE stat and 90% of playerbase is purely PvE ayroux ayroux is online now
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Join Date
May 2013
Since OB huh?
1 year on ur GWF?
Problem is you are only thinking of pvp. You seem incapable of realizing that there is another part to this game and all your changes would ruin it.
ayroux has one of the best PvP GWFs in the game. You know, the type that owns 3 people and takes with them the 4th as they die... if they do
You people cannot comprehend some guys actually care about balance more than their OPness.
And this is not the first instance. Back a few months, ayroux campaigned against tenes, just as he had invested millions AD in 7 GTEs.
This should tell you something about the person.