If someone is at a campfire for more than say, 5-10-30 seconds, they should be kicked back out into the wolves.
Can the game tell the difference between legitimate disconnect and someone doing it deliberately?
Or put a ramp up to the spawns. Having the campfires be "safe" areas just asks for abuse of the system that we've seen in the game with things like afk farming and botting. A ramp solves these issues in the simpliest most time effective way.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Or put a ramp up to the spawns. Having the campfires be "safe" areas just asks for abuse of the system that we've seen in the game with things like afk farming and botting. A ramp solves these issues in the simpliest most time effective way.
If you want more leavers and forum QQ, do just that.
If you want more leavers and forum QQ, do just that.
A balanced ranking system and game would combat the leavers. The forums would QQ no matter what, it's a gaming forum, the best game in existance would still have QQ. I think that having safe spots leads to exploitation of the system. It leaves a way for the system to be gamed, and there will always be players that will do that. Eliminating safe spots eliminates possible exploitative behavior.
I used to argue loudly for leaver penalties until I started playing level 60 pvp constantly. I can't see penalizing players until there is a matchmaking system in place, at the very least. There are very many undergeared, horrible players in pvp. They have a gs of 6-8k and run right to home node as a group as soon as the match starts, and a few seconds later two of them start the leave parade. That is when it is reasonable to leave the match. You stay in a match like that and soon you are trolling your own team and thinking "you idiots omg"...wayyy too frustrating to bear. I would rather see underdogs who stay be rewarded than leavers be penalized.
This is seriously starting to irk me. Almost every single domination is exactly the same. Either your team wins the first group fight and half the enemy team immediately quits, or your team loses the first team fight and half of your own team quits.
Yep, ppl are not stupid. Why beating a dead horse? If the first fight is lost, then the other team is stronger. If the other team is stronger then the pvp session will be lost. Why staying when you already know you'll have to BEG the red ones camping you at respawn to let you gain at least the 100 points that will grant you a spoonful of glory after 20 minutes?
The issue here is in the queue system. Many improvements have been suggested by the community. How many of them have been implemented yet?
What about the people who get kicked from a match through a bad connection or have a real life emergency? Do you want them to be punished?
Yes and No. If they disconnect, they should be able to return to the same PvP instance when they reconnect, and keep playing. However, if it takes more than... let's say 3 - 5 minutes, they should be handled same as people that leave on purpose. Why? Because they are responsible for ruining the fun for 9 (!!!) other players!
However, it's not hard to determine if someone disconnected or left via "Leave Party" button. Exiting the game or relogging should keep you in the same instance and not teleport you to Protector's Enclave.
As easy as that:
- Use of "Leave Party" option: 3 hours PvP timeout.
- Disconnecting for more than 3 - 5 minutes AND coming back once the match is already over: 30 min timeout.
- Disconnecting (time irrelevant), but coming back in time before the match ends: no timeout.
- Kicked for being AFK: 30 min timeout.
Yes and No. If they disconnect, they should be able to return to the same PvP instance when they reconnect, and keep playing. However, if it takes more than... let's say 3 - 5 minutes, they should be handled same as people that leave on purpose. Why? Because they are responsible for ruining the fun for 9 (!!!) other players!
However, it's not hard to determine if someone disconnected or left via "Leave Party" button. Exiting the game or relogging should keep you in the same instance and not teleport you to Protector's Enclave.
As easy as that:
- Use of "Leave Party" option: 3 hours PvP timeout.
- Disconnecting for more than 3 - 5 minutes AND coming back once the match is already over: 30 min timeout.
- Disconnecting (time irrelevant), but coming back in time before the match ends: no timeout.
- Kicked for being AFK: 30 min timeout.
Perfect system.
Then you end up in the same boat with people hanging out at the campfire. They give up in the match, they don't go AFK (to avoid your "perfect system" penalties), and you basically have the same exact problem.
You can't treat the symptoms without addressing the problem and expect the problem to go away. The problem is lack of matchmaking. Wait until the next mod comes out, give it a few weeks to settle in, and THEN see what happens. If a competent match making system is in place and working as intended, then you can start to look at other ways to keep people in game (if they are still dropping party after the first fight or sign of struggle).
Then you end up in the same boat with people hanging out at the campfire. They give up in the match, they don't go AFK (to avoid your "perfect system" penalties), and you basically have the same exact problem.
You can't treat the symptoms without addressing the problem and expect the problem to go away. The problem is lack of matchmaking. Wait until the next mod comes out, give it a few weeks to settle in, and THEN see what happens. If a competent match making system is in place and working as intended, then you can start to look at other ways to keep people in game (if they are still dropping party after the first fight or sign of struggle).
I agree.
Plus If they do add more queues it would be important to make one that is random so that there is no way for any premades to enter.
Alot of the problem is "some" premades look for pugs to crush and spawn camp them.some how they get off on it and it ruins new players fun in domination.they end up just leaving if they even suspect its another premade spawn camp group.It also gives a bad rep for how domination games are,and I bet some players think that all domination games are like that so stop joining.
when in fact most players are trying to have fun and compete.
By having a total random queue "some" premades will be forced to actually face another premade and wont be able to roll pugs any more.I believe players will stop leaving or at least it will happen less often.
Best solution that I've heard is to do two different things:
1- if you leave a match, you can't queue until that match has ended.
2- limit the amount of time that players are allowed to be in the spawn point.
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dashartzMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 29Arc User
edited January 2014
cant penalize players for not wanting to be apart of a broken system, just saying
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dashartzMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 29Arc User
edited January 2014
Hey, I have an idea, how about we get a proper matchmaking system where enemies are matched up more accordingly. I.E. stats, gear, enchants, etc etc. But no lets penalize the people who arent complete idiots that would rather quit and re queue and get a more even match then get repeatedly crapped on by some tool who thinks pvp really matters. End game pvp is rather useless imo. Yeah you get glory to buy salvageable gear but no real rewards other than daily ad. And being the type of gamer I am i would rather not spend my own time to do the math and research to build a pvp gear set, i have better things to do. For being a video game it seems that this game is designed for people who need to research and calculate the best possible char. Which being a working citizen i dont have time nor the desire to do such things. Not like a game you could sit down and set it up to your style of play. You have to set it up like 100 other people doing the same ol <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Boring....
I've never seen a MMO in which people didn't complain bitterly about the PvP. This is why I've generally boycotted PvP since my early days on Rallos Zek.
I think that unless you develop your game *for PvP from the ground up* & *then* balance for PvE, you might as well forget PvP entirely, because what you turn out will be far less than it should have been, & will leave nobody especially happy. But since PvE monster bashers comprise the bulk of the MMO population, it's understandable why developers wouldn't want to take such a risky move. This is especially true, given that the PvP-centric MMOs -- Darkfall Online, Shadowbane, Fallen Earth, Warhammer -- have all crashed & burned, with only Eve Online left, & it doesn't do much for the fantasy crowd.
In short, if I want PvP, I'll go play a FPS, where I can get balanced PvP on *real* PvP servers. MMO PvP is, always has been, & likely always will be a complete waste of time & developer resources.
Fare you well
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...
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dashartzMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 29Arc User
I've never seen a MMO in which people didn't complain bitterly about the PvP. This is why I've generally boycotted PvP since my early days on Rallos Zek.
I think that unless you develop your game *for PvP from the ground up* & *then* balance for PvE, you might as well forget PvP entirely, because what you turn out will be far less than it should have been, & will leave nobody especially happy. But since PvE monster bashers comprise the bulk of the MMO population, it's understandable why developers wouldn't want to take such a risky move. This is especially true, given that the PvP-centric MMOs -- Darkfall Online, Shadowbane, Fallen Earth, Warhammer -- have all crashed & burned, with only Eve Online left, & it doesn't do much for the fantasy crowd.
In short, if I want PvP, I'll go play a FPS, where I can get balanced PvP on *real* PvP servers. MMO PvP is, always has been, & likely always will be a complete waste of time & developer resources.
Imo some penelty needs to be handed out, ilike this idea awell: 1- if you leave a match, you can't queue until that match has ended.
Its not always the ppl who get facestomped by other pugs or a premade that leavs. I do play a lot of pugmatches and ive seen ppl leaving within 2 minutes plenty of time. Even if the score is 130-130 ish.
They just give up since they have died two times and have 0 kills. So they leave and reque i guess just to get in to an easier match where they will have 2 kills and 0 death instaed. Ppl that just giving up in a match when its even or they even lead is the thing i hate most about quiters. And if the game is even, it wont be that for long when its suddenly 4vs5 and that guy who left ruins a good even game for 9 other ppl, just pisses me off!
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twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
Imo some penelty needs to be handed out, ilike this idea awell: 1- if you leave a match, you can't queue until that match has ended.
Its not always the ppl who get facestomped by other pugs or a premade that leavs. I do play a lot of pugmatches and ive seen ppl leaving within 2 minutes plenty of time. Even if the score is 130-130 ish.
They just give up since they have died two times and have 0 kills. So they leave and reque i guess just to get in to an easier match where they will have 2 kills and 0 death instaed. Ppl that just giving up in a match when its even or they even lead is the thing i hate most about quiters. And if the game is even, it wont be that for long when its suddenly 4vs5 and that guy who left ruins a good even game for 9 other ppl, just pisses me off!
Fix the matchmaking system and this is an idea I could support, so long as the matchmaking had a "challenge" option where you could challenge a particular group/person to a match. Sometimes we run guild vs guild matches, and we try to queue at the same time to face one another. The rare times we don't, match up, we leave to try again. If there was an option to select your opponent to remove the guesswork in times like this, I could support a "leave and you can't re-queue until the match you started is finished.
Just make it so a player waiting in a domination queue can be put onto the team that is low on players until it fills up.
This way all the teams will have 5 players.
This way more players will stay knowing someone else will join soon.
As it is now when you loose a player noone can join BECAUSE nobody can join the game past 100 points and everyone usually leaves just past 100 points.
Make it so a new player can always fill the void the entire game.
1)Random queue
2)Current queue for premades until a more intricate match making system can be made.
3)A player waiting in a domination queue can also opt to join a currently running domination game that needs a player.
How about instead of penalising leaver, give them an incentive to stay? 1 pvp token per match (as well as the usual glory) with artifacts or some useful items available for 100 tokens, leave pvp and your tokens get reset to 0, I suppose the same system could be used with the current glory, leave pvp and lose a large amount of glory but as some only do pvp for the dailies does glory really matter to them?
Hey, I have an idea, how about we get a proper matchmaking system where enemies are matched up more accordingly. I.E. stats, gear, enchants, etc etc. But no lets penalize the people who arent complete idiots that would rather quit and re queue and get a more even match then get repeatedly crapped on by some tool who thinks pvp really matters. End game pvp is rather useless imo. Yeah you get glory to buy salvageable gear but no real rewards other than daily ad. And being the type of gamer I am i would rather not spend my own time to do the math and research to build a pvp gear set, i have better things to do. For being a video game it seems that this game is designed for people who need to research and calculate the best possible char. Which being a working citizen i dont have time nor the desire to do such things. Not like a game you could sit down and set it up to your style of play. You have to set it up like 100 other people doing the same ol <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Boring....
Oh wow you just said something pretty important. Yes this is a number crunching action rpg, and probably the very best one at that. The PLAYER must not only be smart in terms of game mechanics, he must also be skilled at the game its self. The constant nerfs and adjustments keep everyone from just doing the same thing. What your talking about is optimization. As in someone makes an optimum build an everyone else just copies it. There is a problem with this though: the more complex the system the more likely any optimum build is not truly optimum, the more likely it can be improved upon. Ad to that just how much the devs nerf/adjust the classes and you have constant movement where builds are concerned.
What YOU would seem to want is a sanbox type game where you can customize the game pretty much to your own tastes. That works, sure, but really mainly just for solo gaming. The most sandboxy games (like minecraft) also somehow feature the most ruthless and intense pvp you will find anywhere. Minecraft, Dayz...brutal pvp in a game where when you die you lose everything your character has acquired up to that point (pretty much). Pathfinder will be the same way.
But I do agree with you about not penalizing leavers YET.
Here is an idea: Make wagering a part of matchmaking. When you que you can wager between 1k and 100k ad in progresssive increments of 10k. That all gets put into a pool which is divided up at the end according to overall player score for that match. So even if you lose you can win ad if you do well as a player, and at least hopefully break even if you are on a losing team but are trying your butt off.
Here is an idea: Make wagering a part of matchmaking. When you que you can wager between 1k and 100k ad in progresssive increments of 10k. That all gets put into a pool which is divided up at the end according to overall player score for that match. So even if you lose you can win ad if you do well as a player, and at least hopefully break even if you are on a losing team but are trying your butt off.
The problem is, every system that is involved with "wagering" in games, is ultimately corrupted by rigged matches.
Heck, even the WoW arenas had a problem with "tourists". Top-tier PvP gear is obtainable only through high ranks in the arena games, so what some lame-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> people used to do was run "tours", where a very prominent arena team would receive either in real money or in-game gold a certain amount, and then run a 5-man or 3-man arena where 4/2 of the players would be top level in skill (but unfortunately corrupted), with the free-loader tagging along. This is what is known as a "tour".
These people were usually top-of-the-line in skill, very best in gear, and also renowned in many forums... and once Blizzard got hold of the evidence they basically banned everyone involved -- but it still persists.
Whatever the system is, if it involves profit and greed, someone will exploit it in the worst way.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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forponieMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 4Arc User
edited February 2014
The only thing I have a problem atm.. Up to lvl 60 I've had plenty of fun in PvP. Got to 60 a few days ago. Hazzah, this'll be fun.
7 games in a row vs MUCH stronger opponents. As far as I could tell in my team we were mostly fresh lvl 60s (mostly blue gear etc)
And the opponents were fully plated shiny god **** knights of glory. it was eather stunlock death or death. Took about 1-2min for them to push us against our spawn, and they camped us there untill the end. 7 games in a row. Haven't left single, and many others didn't, we kept on trying to get through, and take some points but without success.
But now the part THAT ACTUALLY PISSED ME OFF.
For 7 games.. Getting my (our, but each time with anotehr random team) face pounded in, humiliated, 3 hit killed. We. Got. 0. Glory.
No rewards. 0 glory. for almost 40min of PvP. We got absolutley nothing for giving our best against a much better geared enemy that was toying with us, the got rewarded for it, and we got NO rewards.
Now I'm finding it hard NOT to leave whenever we face a team like that. Why should I stay? To get pounded on and leave with nothing? Also.. "learning to play your char, get PvP gear etc.." I have a feeling for my class. Was an ok player untill lvl 60. I have 4 parts of the PvP gear. But that doesn't do much when a single priest/berserker/100% invisible rogue shows up, and slaughters half of our team like lambs with 10k+ crits after crits while we are stunlocked.
Let alone that abillity (I'm persuming it's that PvP artifact) that resses them after they are downed. So they can maybe kill 1 more before they are finnaly killed.
Why don't they at least look.. Ok.. they lost 1000 to 120.
They have all 8+ deaths, they stayed untill the end and kept trying even though their enemy was vastly superior. Let's also give them some glory TO GIVE THEM A REASON TO STAY IN A MATCH like this.
And yeah I' still trying, losing my nerves, trying to get a team ffor dungeons, doing the champaigns just to try and get better gear.. But as far as i see.. For a fresh lvl 60, PvP isn't ment to be.
Even a ranking system would help this out imo. You get your rank according to your win/loss rating. It's stupid, anything but accurate.. but it would make a change.. maybe by Gear score. Or a mix between theese two and your overall contribution to the victory/loss..
Just in the PvP aspect of the end game..
The only thing I have a problem atm.. Up to lvl 60 I've had plenty of fun in PvP. Got to 60 a few days ago. Hazzah, this'll be fun.
7 games in a row vs MUCH stronger opponents. As far as I could tell in my team we were mostly fresh lvl 60s (mostly blue gear etc)
And the opponents were fully plated shiny god **** knights of glory. it was eather stunlock death or death. Took about 1-2min for them to push us against our spawn, and they camped us there untill the end. 7 games in a row. Haven't left single, and many others didn't, we kept on trying to get through, and take some points but without success.
But now the part THAT ACTUALLY PISSED ME OFF.
For 7 games.. Getting my (our, but each time with anotehr random team) face pounded in, humiliated, 3 hit killed. We. Got. 0. Glory.
No rewards. 0 glory. for almost 40min of PvP. We got absolutley nothing for giving our best against a much better geared enemy that was toying with us, the got rewarded for it, and we got NO rewards.
Now I'm finding it hard NOT to leave whenever we face a team like that. Why should I stay? To get pounded on and leave with nothing? Also.. "learning to play your char, get PvP gear etc.." I have a feeling for my class. Was an ok player untill lvl 60. I have 4 parts of the PvP gear. But that doesn't do much when a single priest/berserker/100% invisible rogue shows up, and slaughters half of our team like lambs with 10k+ crits after crits while we are stunlocked.
Let alone that abillity (I'm persuming it's that PvP artifact) that resses them after they are downed. So they can maybe kill 1 more before they are finnaly killed.
Why don't they at least look.. Ok.. they lost 1000 to 120.
They have all 8+ deaths, they stayed untill the end and kept trying even though their enemy was vastly superior. Let's also give them some glory TO GIVE THEM A REASON TO STAY IN A MATCH like this.
And yeah I' still trying, losing my nerves, trying to get a team ffor dungeons, doing the champaigns just to try and get better gear.. But as far as i see.. For a fresh lvl 60, PvP isn't ment to be.
Even a ranking system would help this out imo. You get your rank according to your win/loss rating. It's stupid, anything but accurate.. but it would make a change.. maybe by Gear score. Or a mix between theese two and your overall contribution to the victory/loss..
Just in the PvP aspect of the end game..
Ya its those bad *** premades that dont seems to fight eachother much.They look for pugs to roll and spawn camp them.
Dont get me wrong there are some premades that fight other premades. Just seems most are out to fight undergeared pugs to pretend they are good.
It sucks getting zero glory for putting up these tools.
The only thing I have a problem atm.. Up to lvl 60 I've had plenty of fun in PvP. Got to 60 a few days ago. Hazzah, this'll be fun.
7 games in a row vs MUCH stronger opponents. As far as I could tell in my team we were mostly fresh lvl 60s (mostly blue gear etc)
And the opponents were fully plated shiny god **** knights of glory. it was eather stunlock death or death. Took about 1-2min for them to push us against our spawn, and they camped us there untill the end. 7 games in a row. Haven't left single, and many others didn't, we kept on trying to get through, and take some points but without success.
But now the part THAT ACTUALLY PISSED ME OFF.
For 7 games.. Getting my (our, but each time with anotehr random team) face pounded in, humiliated, 3 hit killed. We. Got. 0. Glory.
No rewards. 0 glory. for almost 40min of PvP. We got absolutley nothing for giving our best against a much better geared enemy that was toying with us, the got rewarded for it, and we got NO rewards.
Now I'm finding it hard NOT to leave whenever we face a team like that. Why should I stay? To get pounded on and leave with nothing? Also.. "learning to play your char, get PvP gear etc.." I have a feeling for my class. Was an ok player untill lvl 60. I have 4 parts of the PvP gear. But that doesn't do much when a single priest/berserker/100% invisible rogue shows up, and slaughters half of our team like lambs with 10k+ crits after crits while we are stunlocked.
Let alone that abillity (I'm persuming it's that PvP artifact) that resses them after they are downed. So they can maybe kill 1 more before they are finnaly killed.
Why don't they at least look.. Ok.. they lost 1000 to 120.
They have all 8+ deaths, they stayed untill the end and kept trying even though their enemy was vastly superior. Let's also give them some glory TO GIVE THEM A REASON TO STAY IN A MATCH like this.
And yeah I' still trying, losing my nerves, trying to get a team ffor dungeons, doing the champaigns just to try and get better gear.. But as far as i see.. For a fresh lvl 60, PvP isn't ment to be.
Even a ranking system would help this out imo. You get your rank according to your win/loss rating. It's stupid, anything but accurate.. but it would make a change.. maybe by Gear score. Or a mix between theese two and your overall contribution to the victory/loss..
Just in the PvP aspect of the end game..
I definitely think staying should be rewarded and leaving left unpunished.
Your post really makes me want to ask about your class, your build, so on. 4 parts pvp gear is definitely not all blues, and that beginner t1 set is enough to allow you to get better gear. Even if it means running t1 dungeons until you have enough ad to buy the t2 gear you want. The pvp artifact doesn't auto-rez you at death, the pvp artifact just gives you some hitpoints and a bunch of temporary hitpoints. What auto-rezzes you on death is an armor enchant called soulforged. Soulforged + pvp artifact for the win, especially when you get greater and above soulforged + purple pvp artifact. There is a lot you can do you make your toon stronger, there are a ton of guides and a million experts who will gladly answer any questions in the class forums.
My advice to new players is to run enough pvp while leveling to get at least 2 pieces of pvp gear + the blood crystal ravens skull (pvp artifact) at level 60. Leveling is really preparation for level 60. On hitting 60 get the pvp gear and skull, get a few boons from sharandar and dreadring, run t1 dungeons as much as possible and get enough AD to buy a couple pieces of t2 gear. Also get into a Guild. You'll get much farther in pvp with a good build, a good guild, at least a couple pieces of t2.
Ya its those bad *** premades that dont seems to fight eachother much.They look for pugs to roll and spawn camp them.
Dont get me wrong there are some premades that fight other premades. Just seems most are out to fight undergeared pugs to pretend they are good.
It sucks getting zero glory for putting up these tools.
Well the sweetest pvp moments are finding that good pug and beating the premade. I've only run into one really bad, classless premade in hundreds of matches. It was last night, it was all one guild, and they made their guild look like classless pieces of $&%#. It was a situation where my gwf's meager 12.5k gs was the highest in the team, none of my teammates quit or did horrible but they were obviously new players. Imo the best rotation means you don't let any nodes be contested away from blue. A winnable rotation means you don't let any nodes go red at all, they are either blue or contested. A really bad rotation means all the nodes are red and as soon as you contest even one of them you get 3v1'd and your team fails to cap or even contest one of the other nodes for even a few seconds while you are fighting those 3 enemy toons for a couple minutes or more. This match was the last of these, a really bad match. Whatever its a pug, it happens. But the winning team non-stopped trolled us and I was the only one even saying anything back to them. They are like "1v1? Trade nodes?" and as soon as you jump from your spawn they all attack you at the same time. The only gratifying thing about that is killing 1 or two of them before you go down. That and seeing a really classless guild reveal its self so you know what entire guild to entirely avoid and spread the word about in the future.
I want to see guild vs guild pvp in NWO. As in open world pvp, members of enemy guilds being automatically hostile.
The only thing I have a problem atm.. Up to lvl 60 I've had plenty of fun in PvP. Got to 60 a few days ago. Hazzah, this'll be fun.
7 games in a row vs MUCH stronger opponents. As far as I could tell in my team we were mostly fresh lvl 60s (mostly blue gear etc)
And the opponents were fully plated shiny god **** knights of glory. it was eather stunlock death or death. Took about 1-2min for them to push us against our spawn, and they camped us there untill the end. 7 games in a row. Haven't left single, and many others didn't, we kept on trying to get through, and take some points but without success.
But now the part THAT ACTUALLY PISSED ME OFF.
For 7 games.. Getting my (our, but each time with anotehr random team) face pounded in, humiliated, 3 hit killed. We. Got. 0. Glory.
No rewards. 0 glory. for almost 40min of PvP. We got absolutley nothing for giving our best against a much better geared enemy that was toying with us, the got rewarded for it, and we got NO rewards.
Now I'm finding it hard NOT to leave whenever we face a team like that. Why should I stay? To get pounded on and leave with nothing? Also.. "learning to play your char, get PvP gear etc.." I have a feeling for my class. Was an ok player untill lvl 60. I have 4 parts of the PvP gear. But that doesn't do much when a single priest/berserker/100% invisible rogue shows up, and slaughters half of our team like lambs with 10k+ crits after crits while we are stunlocked.
Let alone that abillity (I'm persuming it's that PvP artifact) that resses them after they are downed. So they can maybe kill 1 more before they are finnaly killed.
Why don't they at least look.. Ok.. they lost 1000 to 120.
They have all 8+ deaths, they stayed untill the end and kept trying even though their enemy was vastly superior. Let's also give them some glory TO GIVE THEM A REASON TO STAY IN A MATCH like this.
And yeah I' still trying, losing my nerves, trying to get a team ffor dungeons, doing the champaigns just to try and get better gear.. But as far as i see.. For a fresh lvl 60, PvP isn't ment to be.
Even a ranking system would help this out imo. You get your rank according to your win/loss rating. It's stupid, anything but accurate.. but it would make a change.. maybe by Gear score. Or a mix between theese two and your overall contribution to the victory/loss..
Just in the PvP aspect of the end game..
0 Glory for 100% effort on a losing team is why I get angry when idiots in this forum ramble on about punishing leavers.
Let alone that abillity (I'm persuming it's that PvP artifact) that resses them after they are downed. So they can maybe kill 1 more before they are finnaly killed.
Those are soulforge enchantments which auto-ress players once per 3 mins at death. Pvp artifact is what makes hp go up from 10% to 100% at max level (hp will be temporary tho, so in yellow).
They made it so that below 500 pts (I think its 500, though not sure), there is no glory granted coz of bots. But yes, it is a major turn down for pvp. I sometimes wonder whether it wouldn't be more fair if granted glory was calculated on the basis of such stats as get scored for dungeon runs - dmg dealt, dmg tanked, amount of heals done...
I was enjoying myself, but after getting 2 characters to 60 I have been utterly disappointed in end game PvP. I knew it was the same map same mode, but wow. This is even worse than low level dominations. One side generally leaves within 30 seconds of the match starting probably 8/10 games. If you choose to stick around you will probably waste 8-10 minutes for 0 glory.
Zero. Glory.
Then you get taunted for being a **** scrub with bad gear, but you can't improve your gear by PvP'ing unless you get the winning side(or at least not a blow out loss which seems to always be the case).
I've read through every post in this thread up to the one quoted above, and will continue to read on through the thread.
This above quote struck a chord with me.
While levelling to 60 I participated in PvP frequently, not just for the glory and thus the rewards, but for the fun of it.
I'm not a particularly skilled PvPer and most likely never will be. But regardless of the wins / losses and occasional quitters, PvP up to end game was enjoyable.
As for now at level 60, I've grown to hate PvP, and play very rarely.
Here's why, last night local time I played four rounds, in pugs, (bear in mind I'm not a serious PvPer).
Each round a resounding loss with in the end zero glory, a total waste of time.
Why? Quitters for one, and facing a team which either out geared and/or out skilled the pug I was in.
Put simply end game PvP is no longer fun with limited, (if any), opportunity for reward.
I take my hat off to those players who are both skilled and well equipped PvPers as they have obviously worked to get where they are.
I take my hat off to those less skilled or geared players who give it a go and see it through.
I can't fault those who no longer enjoy PvP because it's unbalanced and unrewarding.
I don't think anyone will disagree that quitting is an annoying aspect of PvP.
Quitting isn't the problem however it's a symptom, or a secondary problem to poor PvP system design.
Many here have posted well thought out and well presented solutions, which have great merit.
The biggest problem however?
The lack of an official response, or effort made to fix it!
Perhaps though there are efforts being made, and have yet to see the light of day as the 'are not yet ready (tm)'.
Until then threads like this will continue to grow in length, players continue to get disgruntled or increasingly disgruntled.
The only thing I have a problem atm.. Up to lvl 60 I've had plenty of fun in PvP. Got to 60 a few days ago. Hazzah, this'll be fun.
7 games in a row vs MUCH stronger opponents. As far as I could tell in my team we were mostly fresh lvl 60s (mostly blue gear etc)
And the opponents were fully plated shiny god **** knights of glory. it was eather stunlock death or death. Took about 1-2min for them to push us against our spawn, and they camped us there untill the end. 7 games in a row. Haven't left single, and many others didn't, we kept on trying to get through, and take some points but without success.
But now the part THAT ACTUALLY PISSED ME OFF.
For 7 games.. Getting my (our, but each time with anotehr random team) face pounded in, humiliated, 3 hit killed. We. Got. 0. Glory.
No rewards. 0 glory. for almost 40min of PvP. We got absolutley nothing for giving our best against a much better geared enemy that was toying with us, the got rewarded for it, and we got NO rewards.
Now I'm finding it hard NOT to leave whenever we face a team like that. Why should I stay? To get pounded on and leave with nothing?
Agreed, the lack of a means to balance teams in endgame PvP whatsoever be they PUGS or premade is taking the enjoyment out PvP for many players.
This contributes to and perpetuates the 'early leaver' problem.
The game has a tiering system with regard end game PvE gear, and end game dungeoneering.
Likewise tiered endgame PvP gear, but nothing of the like for endgame PvP matches, a serious shortcoming indeed.
The grossly imbalanced so called 'contests' that result are not a true contest for 'new' level 60 players or 'hard core' PvPers whatsoever.
Make PvP items only work in PvP environment an NOT in PvE.
The PuGs are full now of PvE-players that just want to get glory for the artifact, at least I think so.
Who cares why someone wants to play PvP. You should be happy that there is a reason to get more people into the PvP queue as it exposes more people to something they might not play on their own, and they might like it. Keep that in mind when you make their intro into PvP a miserable experience and then wonder why, down the road, the PvP community is so small.
If the match making system works, when module 3 comes out, then those fresh 60 PvP people end up facing off against one another and working their way up. It breeds better competition, eases people into PvP and lets them hone their skills instead of just using them as fodder and tossing them aside.
Comments
Or put a ramp up to the spawns. Having the campfires be "safe" areas just asks for abuse of the system that we've seen in the game with things like afk farming and botting. A ramp solves these issues in the simpliest most time effective way.
If you want more leavers and forum QQ, do just that.
A balanced ranking system and game would combat the leavers. The forums would QQ no matter what, it's a gaming forum, the best game in existance would still have QQ. I think that having safe spots leads to exploitation of the system. It leaves a way for the system to be gamed, and there will always be players that will do that. Eliminating safe spots eliminates possible exploitative behavior.
Jugger Conq GF
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Yep, ppl are not stupid. Why beating a dead horse? If the first fight is lost, then the other team is stronger. If the other team is stronger then the pvp session will be lost. Why staying when you already know you'll have to BEG the red ones camping you at respawn to let you gain at least the 100 points that will grant you a spoonful of glory after 20 minutes?
The issue here is in the queue system. Many improvements have been suggested by the community. How many of them have been implemented yet?
Yes and No. If they disconnect, they should be able to return to the same PvP instance when they reconnect, and keep playing. However, if it takes more than... let's say 3 - 5 minutes, they should be handled same as people that leave on purpose. Why? Because they are responsible for ruining the fun for 9 (!!!) other players!
However, it's not hard to determine if someone disconnected or left via "Leave Party" button. Exiting the game or relogging should keep you in the same instance and not teleport you to Protector's Enclave.
As easy as that:
- Use of "Leave Party" option: 3 hours PvP timeout.
- Disconnecting for more than 3 - 5 minutes AND coming back once the match is already over: 30 min timeout.
- Disconnecting (time irrelevant), but coming back in time before the match ends: no timeout.
- Kicked for being AFK: 30 min timeout.
Perfect system.
Then you end up in the same boat with people hanging out at the campfire. They give up in the match, they don't go AFK (to avoid your "perfect system" penalties), and you basically have the same exact problem.
You can't treat the symptoms without addressing the problem and expect the problem to go away. The problem is lack of matchmaking. Wait until the next mod comes out, give it a few weeks to settle in, and THEN see what happens. If a competent match making system is in place and working as intended, then you can start to look at other ways to keep people in game (if they are still dropping party after the first fight or sign of struggle).
I agree.
Plus If they do add more queues it would be important to make one that is random so that there is no way for any premades to enter.
Alot of the problem is "some" premades look for pugs to crush and spawn camp them.some how they get off on it and it ruins new players fun in domination.they end up just leaving if they even suspect its another premade spawn camp group.It also gives a bad rep for how domination games are,and I bet some players think that all domination games are like that so stop joining.
when in fact most players are trying to have fun and compete.
By having a total random queue "some" premades will be forced to actually face another premade and wont be able to roll pugs any more.I believe players will stop leaving or at least it will happen less often.
1- if you leave a match, you can't queue until that match has ended.
2- limit the amount of time that players are allowed to be in the spawn point.
I think that unless you develop your game *for PvP from the ground up* & *then* balance for PvE, you might as well forget PvP entirely, because what you turn out will be far less than it should have been, & will leave nobody especially happy. But since PvE monster bashers comprise the bulk of the MMO population, it's understandable why developers wouldn't want to take such a risky move. This is especially true, given that the PvP-centric MMOs -- Darkfall Online, Shadowbane, Fallen Earth, Warhammer -- have all crashed & burned, with only Eve Online left, & it doesn't do much for the fantasy crowd.
In short, if I want PvP, I'll go play a FPS, where I can get balanced PvP on *real* PvP servers. MMO PvP is, always has been, & likely always will be a complete waste of time & developer resources.
Let your life proceed by its own designs
Nothing to tell
Let the words be yours, I'm done with mine ...
very well put. I feel the same way.
Its not always the ppl who get facestomped by other pugs or a premade that leavs. I do play a lot of pugmatches and ive seen ppl leaving within 2 minutes plenty of time. Even if the score is 130-130 ish.
They just give up since they have died two times and have 0 kills. So they leave and reque i guess just to get in to an easier match where they will have 2 kills and 0 death instaed. Ppl that just giving up in a match when its even or they even lead is the thing i hate most about quiters. And if the game is even, it wont be that for long when its suddenly 4vs5 and that guy who left ruins a good even game for 9 other ppl, just pisses me off!
Fix the matchmaking system and this is an idea I could support, so long as the matchmaking had a "challenge" option where you could challenge a particular group/person to a match. Sometimes we run guild vs guild matches, and we try to queue at the same time to face one another. The rare times we don't, match up, we leave to try again. If there was an option to select your opponent to remove the guesswork in times like this, I could support a "leave and you can't re-queue until the match you started is finished.
This way all the teams will have 5 players.
This way more players will stay knowing someone else will join soon.
As it is now when you loose a player noone can join BECAUSE nobody can join the game past 100 points and everyone usually leaves just past 100 points.
Make it so a new player can always fill the void the entire game.
1)Random queue
2)Current queue for premades until a more intricate match making system can be made.
3)A player waiting in a domination queue can also opt to join a currently running domination game that needs a player.
Essence of Aggression
Oh wow you just said something pretty important. Yes this is a number crunching action rpg, and probably the very best one at that. The PLAYER must not only be smart in terms of game mechanics, he must also be skilled at the game its self. The constant nerfs and adjustments keep everyone from just doing the same thing. What your talking about is optimization. As in someone makes an optimum build an everyone else just copies it. There is a problem with this though: the more complex the system the more likely any optimum build is not truly optimum, the more likely it can be improved upon. Ad to that just how much the devs nerf/adjust the classes and you have constant movement where builds are concerned.
What YOU would seem to want is a sanbox type game where you can customize the game pretty much to your own tastes. That works, sure, but really mainly just for solo gaming. The most sandboxy games (like minecraft) also somehow feature the most ruthless and intense pvp you will find anywhere. Minecraft, Dayz...brutal pvp in a game where when you die you lose everything your character has acquired up to that point (pretty much). Pathfinder will be the same way.
But I do agree with you about not penalizing leavers YET.
Jugger Conq GF
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Jugger Conq GF
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The problem is, every system that is involved with "wagering" in games, is ultimately corrupted by rigged matches.
Heck, even the WoW arenas had a problem with "tourists". Top-tier PvP gear is obtainable only through high ranks in the arena games, so what some lame-<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> people used to do was run "tours", where a very prominent arena team would receive either in real money or in-game gold a certain amount, and then run a 5-man or 3-man arena where 4/2 of the players would be top level in skill (but unfortunately corrupted), with the free-loader tagging along. This is what is known as a "tour".
These people were usually top-of-the-line in skill, very best in gear, and also renowned in many forums... and once Blizzard got hold of the evidence they basically banned everyone involved -- but it still persists.
Whatever the system is, if it involves profit and greed, someone will exploit it in the worst way.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
7 games in a row vs MUCH stronger opponents. As far as I could tell in my team we were mostly fresh lvl 60s (mostly blue gear etc)
And the opponents were fully plated shiny god **** knights of glory. it was eather stunlock death or death. Took about 1-2min for them to push us against our spawn, and they camped us there untill the end. 7 games in a row. Haven't left single, and many others didn't, we kept on trying to get through, and take some points but without success.
But now the part THAT ACTUALLY PISSED ME OFF.
For 7 games.. Getting my (our, but each time with anotehr random team) face pounded in, humiliated, 3 hit killed. We. Got. 0. Glory.
No rewards. 0 glory. for almost 40min of PvP. We got absolutley nothing for giving our best against a much better geared enemy that was toying with us, the got rewarded for it, and we got NO rewards.
Now I'm finding it hard NOT to leave whenever we face a team like that. Why should I stay? To get pounded on and leave with nothing? Also.. "learning to play your char, get PvP gear etc.." I have a feeling for my class. Was an ok player untill lvl 60. I have 4 parts of the PvP gear. But that doesn't do much when a single priest/berserker/100% invisible rogue shows up, and slaughters half of our team like lambs with 10k+ crits after crits while we are stunlocked.
Let alone that abillity (I'm persuming it's that PvP artifact) that resses them after they are downed. So they can maybe kill 1 more before they are finnaly killed.
Why don't they at least look.. Ok.. they lost 1000 to 120.
They have all 8+ deaths, they stayed untill the end and kept trying even though their enemy was vastly superior. Let's also give them some glory TO GIVE THEM A REASON TO STAY IN A MATCH like this.
And yeah I' still trying, losing my nerves, trying to get a team ffor dungeons, doing the champaigns just to try and get better gear.. But as far as i see.. For a fresh lvl 60, PvP isn't ment to be.
Even a ranking system would help this out imo. You get your rank according to your win/loss rating. It's stupid, anything but accurate.. but it would make a change.. maybe by Gear score. Or a mix between theese two and your overall contribution to the victory/loss..
Just
Ya its those bad *** premades that dont seems to fight eachother much.They look for pugs to roll and spawn camp them.
Dont get me wrong there are some premades that fight other premades. Just seems most are out to fight undergeared pugs to pretend they are good.
It sucks getting zero glory for putting up these tools.
I definitely think staying should be rewarded and leaving left unpunished.
Your post really makes me want to ask about your class, your build, so on. 4 parts pvp gear is definitely not all blues, and that beginner t1 set is enough to allow you to get better gear. Even if it means running t1 dungeons until you have enough ad to buy the t2 gear you want. The pvp artifact doesn't auto-rez you at death, the pvp artifact just gives you some hitpoints and a bunch of temporary hitpoints. What auto-rezzes you on death is an armor enchant called soulforged. Soulforged + pvp artifact for the win, especially when you get greater and above soulforged + purple pvp artifact. There is a lot you can do you make your toon stronger, there are a ton of guides and a million experts who will gladly answer any questions in the class forums.
My advice to new players is to run enough pvp while leveling to get at least 2 pieces of pvp gear + the blood crystal ravens skull (pvp artifact) at level 60. Leveling is really preparation for level 60. On hitting 60 get the pvp gear and skull, get a few boons from sharandar and dreadring, run t1 dungeons as much as possible and get enough AD to buy a couple pieces of t2 gear. Also get into a Guild. You'll get much farther in pvp with a good build, a good guild, at least a couple pieces of t2.
Jugger Conq GF
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Well the sweetest pvp moments are finding that good pug and beating the premade. I've only run into one really bad, classless premade in hundreds of matches. It was last night, it was all one guild, and they made their guild look like classless pieces of $&%#. It was a situation where my gwf's meager 12.5k gs was the highest in the team, none of my teammates quit or did horrible but they were obviously new players. Imo the best rotation means you don't let any nodes be contested away from blue. A winnable rotation means you don't let any nodes go red at all, they are either blue or contested. A really bad rotation means all the nodes are red and as soon as you contest even one of them you get 3v1'd and your team fails to cap or even contest one of the other nodes for even a few seconds while you are fighting those 3 enemy toons for a couple minutes or more. This match was the last of these, a really bad match. Whatever its a pug, it happens. But the winning team non-stopped trolled us and I was the only one even saying anything back to them. They are like "1v1? Trade nodes?" and as soon as you jump from your spawn they all attack you at the same time. The only gratifying thing about that is killing 1 or two of them before you go down. That and seeing a really classless guild reveal its self so you know what entire guild to entirely avoid and spread the word about in the future.
I want to see guild vs guild pvp in NWO. As in open world pvp, members of enemy guilds being automatically hostile.
Jugger Conq GF
....
They made it so that below 500 pts (I think its 500, though not sure), there is no glory granted coz of bots. But yes, it is a major turn down for pvp. I sometimes wonder whether it wouldn't be more fair if granted glory was calculated on the basis of such stats as get scored for dungeon runs - dmg dealt, dmg tanked, amount of heals done...
I've read through every post in this thread up to the one quoted above, and will continue to read on through the thread.
This above quote struck a chord with me.
While levelling to 60 I participated in PvP frequently, not just for the glory and thus the rewards, but for the fun of it.
I'm not a particularly skilled PvPer and most likely never will be. But regardless of the wins / losses and occasional quitters, PvP up to end game was enjoyable.
As for now at level 60, I've grown to hate PvP, and play very rarely.
Here's why, last night local time I played four rounds, in pugs, (bear in mind I'm not a serious PvPer).
Each round a resounding loss with in the end zero glory, a total waste of time.
Why? Quitters for one, and facing a team which either out geared and/or out skilled the pug I was in.
Put simply end game PvP is no longer fun with limited, (if any), opportunity for reward.
I take my hat off to those players who are both skilled and well equipped PvPers as they have obviously worked to get where they are.
I take my hat off to those less skilled or geared players who give it a go and see it through.
I can't fault those who no longer enjoy PvP because it's unbalanced and unrewarding.
I don't think anyone will disagree that quitting is an annoying aspect of PvP.
Quitting isn't the problem however it's a symptom, or a secondary problem to poor PvP system design.
Many here have posted well thought out and well presented solutions, which have great merit.
The biggest problem however?
The lack of an official response, or effort made to fix it!
Perhaps though there are efforts being made, and have yet to see the light of day as the 'are not yet ready (tm)'.
Until then threads like this will continue to grow in length, players continue to get disgruntled or increasingly disgruntled.
Agreed, the lack of a means to balance teams in endgame PvP whatsoever be they PUGS or premade is taking the enjoyment out PvP for many players.
This contributes to and perpetuates the 'early leaver' problem.
The game has a tiering system with regard end game PvE gear, and end game dungeoneering.
Likewise tiered endgame PvP gear, but nothing of the like for endgame PvP matches, a serious shortcoming indeed.
The grossly imbalanced so called 'contests' that result are not a true contest for 'new' level 60 players or 'hard core' PvPers whatsoever.
Make PvP items only work in PvP environment an NOT in PvE.
The PuGs are full now of PvE-players that just want to get glory for the artifact, at least I think so.
Who cares why someone wants to play PvP. You should be happy that there is a reason to get more people into the PvP queue as it exposes more people to something they might not play on their own, and they might like it. Keep that in mind when you make their intro into PvP a miserable experience and then wonder why, down the road, the PvP community is so small.
If the match making system works, when module 3 comes out, then those fresh 60 PvP people end up facing off against one another and working their way up. It breeds better competition, eases people into PvP and lets them hone their skills instead of just using them as fodder and tossing them aside.