I've noticed a rather awful trend with the PVP domination maps. I'm not even sure this is a proper forum for this, but I'm not sure where else to voice my concern. It seems a full majority of the PVP games I've played, more than half of one team will drop out of the game as soon as the game starts to go bad. The game will then continue with an uneven 2 v 5 game. This is not only unbalanced, it's just not fun to sit through, for either team. As the PVP dailies are the most effective means of getting astral diamonds other than logging in only once a day to do an invocation and logging out immediately afterward, this seemed fairly major. Could there be some incentive to stay through a losing game or at least some means of balancing uneven teams?
Want to know why people leave?
Bad players on their team (since losing gives you almost nothing and winning gives you a lot, if you have 4 players that all run to home base you know you will lose, so what's the point of staying)
The need to get 500pts to get any glory, this means when the other team stomps your team and has 3 pt's under their control in seconds you will get nothing at all.
The daily quest gives you credit for two matches if you are on the top top 5 of the scoreboard, so finding a pug you can stomp is more time efficient.
All these are reasons why pugs leave matches. Honestly all of them are valid reasons. This doesn't even get into the cases where something happens in the house and they need to go.
So what you're saying is that the premades and 1-sided dom games are mostly filled with people who are just there for the AD and the glory. Interesting. You're obviously not a hardcore pvper or you wouldn't make such a statement. Please explain that to the hordes of premades and pvp fanatics who are bored to death killing the 8k GS inexperienced people (who are indeed there for the rewards only) in a pug.
The fact is, there IS a large pvp community that started this game mainly for the pvp and it's growing every day. The gap between those "hardcore" pvpers and the casual reward hunters is just too big for the current pug system and it's basically the reason for all the "dozens of crying posts" as it was called earlier in this thread. And yes, it does make newcomers shy away from it. Nobody likes to spend 4x 10 minutes as a punching bag for 4k AD. Or waiting 10 minutes to see nobody come out of their spawn point for that matter.
While I agree, that the game doesn't appear to have a pvp focus, you can't deny the fact a lot of people like it so much they will work mainly to improve in that aspect of the game and don't give a rat's behind about the dungeons other than to drop their gear -if they don't buy it with selling zen- and get the hell out of them.
But I'll let you explain your own statement. I'm curious to learn how you came to your conclusion.
Either way something has to change. It is in Cryptic's best interest to keep as many players in the game as they can. The pvpers are probably the biggest spenders in the game. So the goal should be to try and keep the current pvp population happy while still making it worth trying for the casual player who might decide he likes it and starts spending more money. The best way I see that happening, is to keep the pug (with or without rewards) for the casuals, and give the vets a better challenge.
When was the last time you ran into another premade with yours rather than a pug? It happens for me maybe one out of twenty runs. That means that hardcore community isn't as big as you think or there would be more of a chance that premade would go up against premade.
let's see.. either premade or enormously out of balance? At least 3/5 times during the pvp event. But I'm one of those unfortunate people who doesn't spend 24h a day on this game, has a life outside this game, has bills to pay and doesn't have all the buffs, stones and enchantments. Let alone the gear. But that's all irrelevant. I tried to explain the reasons behind the pvp problems and where -I think- your reasoning is flawed. Obviously you've missed the point. Let's go back now. You think the pvp community is driven by the rewards only. I'm still curious to how you came to that conclusion.
You are arguing that the hard core community is large, I'm saying it's not, it's small. Why else would a pre-made vs pre-made match be so rare.
If you were right pre-mades would fight each other way more often than they do and the amount of pug teams would be far less. Which is the exact opposite of what actually happens.
That means the hard core pvp community is very small in comparison with the rest of the game. Even you agree it's the hardcore pvp community alone that would pvp with no rewards. Since NW is a small population niche game, this would eventually lead that small community to be a non-existant community, and the dev's would just concentrate on pve as pvp would be dead and gone.
Agree with everything besides this one. It's not filthy LOL, I'd hate to to see people getting mad because of things like this ever again and I think I'd leave just because I don't want to experience anything like this myself.
Some kind of gear tiers like in epic dungeons would be just awesome though, but not ELO or any other ranking system that requires player to play it constantly.
This game is small period. I've seen the same people in my matches several times in the last couple weeks, do you know how hard that should be in an MMO?
The PvP playerbase is shrinking if anything. Make a new character, level 10-19 pops all day. The brackets get progressively more barren until you get to 60 where you are left with a handful of "hardcore PvP'ers"(such a joke term) and some PvE'ers looking to get the Artifact or grind out a companion.
For reference, this game was just released on Steam and it's F2P. Have you seen your population go up? From my experience in MMO's and other games, if the game you're playing doesn't start out on Steam but ends up on Steam, that's usually not a good sign.
Father McGruder - Scrub geared DPS DC - I kick HAMSTER for the Lord!
Explosivo - Scrub geared MoF CW - Climb upon my BIG ASSED steed....
there needs to be gs categories.and higher the category the better rewards or whats the point of farming gear...
curent rewards are fine for lets say 2 lowest categories.and on 2 highest categories there need to be some some proffit involved .so having high gs and enchants should be rewarding not making people quit.
Agree with everything besides this one. It's not filthy LOL, I'd hate to to see people getting mad because of things like this ever again and I think I'd leave just because I don't want to experience anything like this myself.
Some kind of gear tiers like in epic dungeons would be just awesome though, but not ELO or any other ranking system that requires player to play it constantly.
It is not unusual for my guild to have a full 5 people running a group for PvP, but we probably have 1 or 2 people that hardly ever PvP and are just working on their first set of T1 gear. Also we rarely bother to choose a class mix that is designed to compete against a "true" pre-made.
I would love to see some sort of PvP divisions, but I am not sure what the best way to do it would be.
relative nube i suppose, only been playing about a month, quested my way up to 60, and am busy going up through the campaigns for better equipment and boons. Didn't start pvping until a week ago, for the daily and the brutal armour set. And despite the problems, pvp is the most fun I've had so far in the game.
okay, 1 game in maybe 5 will be a bust, your team leaves, or you come up against a bunch of monster-gs players in one hit kill mode... but mostly, it's great.
The best thing is the queue time, ie. there isn't one, you queue, and 30 seconds later, you are playing. compare that to the dungeons, and its a very pleasant change.
whatever is done to make pvp more enjoyable, the low queue time should be maintained.
and thanks btw., to the many great pvp players ive been teamed with, I'll have that damned artifact in no time.
ps. I play a H/R range-melee hybrid, and wear a black shirt. Say hi.
relative nube i suppose, only been playing about a month, quested my way up to 60, and am busy going up through the campaigns for better equipment and boons. Didn't start pvping until a week ago, for the daily and the brutal armour set. And despite the problems, pvp is the most fun I've had so far in the game.
okay, 1 game in maybe 5 will be a bust, your team leaves, or you come up against a bunch of monster-gs players in one hit kill mode... but mostly, it's great.
The best thing is the queue time, ie. there isn't one, you queue, and 30 seconds later, you are playing. compare that to the dungeons, and its a very pleasant change.
whatever is done to make pvp more enjoyable, the low queue time should be maintained.
and thanks btw., to the many great pvp players ive been teamed with, I'll have that damned artifact in no time.
ps. I play a H/R range-melee hybrid, and wear a black shirt. Say hi.
This. Your experience as a "new lvl 60 pvper" is remarkably more enjoyable simply because you apparently farmed a good bit before jumping into matches. Get to level 60, farm for a solid 20 hours (seven days at 2.9 hours or whatever), or pay about $20.00 for gear, enchants and coals and pvp at lvl 60 is a whole different experience.
You are arguing that the hard core community is large, I'm saying it's not, it's small. Why else would a pre-made vs pre-made match be so rare.
If you were right pre-mades would fight each other way more often than they do and the amount of pug teams would be far less. Which is the exact opposite of what actually happens.
That means the hard core pvp community is very small in comparison with the rest of the game. Even you agree it's the hardcore pvp community alone that would pvp with no rewards. Since NW is a small population niche game, this would eventually lead that small community to be a non-existant community, and the dev's would just concentrate on pve as pvp would be dead and gone.
I have to agree 100% with you that the hardcore PvP community is small by comparison tot he rest of the game. But that being said the amount of players that will PvP is quite large. I spent almost 2 days about 3-4 hours each farming glory for my T1 set and it was rare that I got teamed up with the same players.
I also agree with your other post about why players choose to leave rather then stick out a match. But this goes back to my reasons for removing rewards from PvP. If you remove the rewards and add an arena you remove the need for premades that will ROFLSTOMP pugs. You remove the need to win matches fast as possible so you can get more matches in before the PvP event ends and in doing so will open up more player will to trade tactics and let you 1v1 them to learn how to fight other classes which we really don't have right now. For players just starting lvl60 pvp its a mad scramble to get points and trying to figure the best tactics to fight a class while having 3 other player attacking you is pretty freaking hard to do. And just to be clear, Im not suggesting removing rewards from all forms of PvP.
Maybe all we really need is just an arena that players can go to and PvP without competition. The easier it is for new players to learn and understand PvP the more likely they will enjoy competitive PvP and stick it out for a full match.
instead of implementing compulsary on-entry gear leverlers or other things that would turn off people who'd worked hard for their stuff why not have a voluntary system..?
when a match starts have the game calculate the average gs of all the players involved and then warn those higher, beyond a certain margin, that their glory gain will be lowered correspondingly unless they de-equip down to nearer the average..? And that those with lower scores will have theirs raised, should they win.
then players can choose to go skills and teamwork, rather than just sit in their tank and walk over everyone with brute force.
You should have the freedom to leave anytime you like for a number of reasons. I vote for not changing anything. Just que again. One thing they should do is show the players name in chat that left, this way you could ignore the player and return the favor to him in the futre. Problem solved.
I tell ya bud, If I look around at the beginning of the match and see everyone in crappy gear that is 10 levels under their current level with no enchants you bet i'm leaving...and I should not be penalized for it. They should ... and practically they are after I leave. Sorry to say!
There's already a penalty for leaving. It's called losing. You get 0 rewards when you bounce back to PE.
The only people getting penalized will be those who stay, the leaver is still immediately free to jump into another game, whatever their reason. Not everyone is playing for the rewards and that can really mess things up for those that are.
The players don't even know how the PvP system works, where the points come from, etc.
I wish I knew how it works but haven't found any detailed explanation yet. I might have looked at the wrong places but newbies might likely face the same problem.
I can't remember the program telling me how it works.
This is seriously starting to irk me. Almost every single domination is exactly the same. Either your team wins the first group fight and half the enemy team immediately quits, or your team loses the first team fight and half of your own team quits. It's absolutely ridiculous there is no penalty for quitting in the middle of a match. I understand they are introducing match making soon to try and even out the teams a bit, but are they adding any kind of penalty for quitting a match? It's a major design oversight.
People can just leave and queue again immediately until they are the team standing around outside the graveyard waiting for the match to end. I would like to see something like a two or three hour debuff that prevents you from queuing for ANY PvP content. It's especially annoying since it doesn't place players into a match in progress. I've seen people get put into a match in progress a few times, but for the most part, once someone leaves that's it for your team. It's basically pug win trading and win trading should never be allowed to happen, especially when it's easily preventable.
When I queue up for PvP I want to actually compete against other players, not stand next to a point swapping back and forth to get a bit of extra glory (which isn't worth much anyway). It's boring and uninteresting. I understand there are balance issues between classes and bugs that need fixing, but that's not an excuse for this poor design.
TL;DR Add a 'leaver' debuff to players who prematurely leave PvP matches. It should be a long debuff to discourage quitting. Something like two or three hours.
What about the people who get kicked from a match through a bad connection or have a real life emergency? Do you want them to be punished?
And if somebody doesn't want to fight anymore and they know they will get penalized for leaving; Won't they just sit at the campfire afk? It would be the same exact thing as leaving. It would be basically a 4 v 5 match anyways.
Arc, proud officer of Novus Ordo
New to the game? Check out my build guide to give you an idea on how to set up your characters!
Who cares about them man.. that happens like 1 time from 100 and leavers are leaving like 90/100 its much bigger problem get head out of your <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ..
Actually I get disconnected about 3-4 times a day and I have a very good internet connection (I experience no latency, rubber-banding, ect.) I have no idea why but, I know a bunch of other people have that problem too. If you see that somebody is still in the match and it shows their picture but, it says "Disconnected" that means they were forced Disconnected from the server.
And you completely ignored the campfire sitting problem. People won't leave if there is a penalty they will just start spawn sitting. Than they press Alt-Tab and do some other things for 10 mins or so.
Arc, proud officer of Novus Ordo
New to the game? Check out my build guide to give you an idea on how to set up your characters!
And if somebody doesn't want to fight anymore and they know they will get penalized for leaving; Won't they just sit at the campfire afk? It would be the same exact thing as leaving. It would be basically a 4 v 5 match anyways.
This exactly, and lol at the response you got. "Punishing" people who leave solves nothing when they can just sit in the campfire afk. The problem is matchmaking, plain and simple, and it's pointless, not to mention a crappy attitude to have in the community, to start pointing fingers at each other instead.
Now there is computer problems u have there, I get disconnected from a game maximum 1 time a day..
My computer is completely fine and plenty of people are experiencing the same problem. I was in a guild called, "Coalition Saints", We live on different parts of the US and when we were on TS each of us would experience constant DCing.
Arc, proud officer of Novus Ordo
New to the game? Check out my build guide to give you an idea on how to set up your characters!
It's a simple thing to not boot someone from the match just because they got disconnected. If you get disconnected, then reconnect. Unless you're playing on a massive piece of garbage you should be able to reconnect just fine. I'm talking about debuffing people who press alt, click on their portrait, and click "leave party." Of course, people could always just abuse alt+F4 in that situation to try and trick the system into thinking they were disconnected. Honestly though, other games don't discriminate, if you leave the match and never return for any reason you are punished for it, regardless of whether you got disconnected, hit alt+F4. or outright left.
As for the campfire sitting, so what? At the very least they are stuck in the match until it ends and can't just queue again, over and over until the other team quits and they get a free win. Another solution is to place a limit on how long you can sit in the graveyard before it boots you AND gives you the leaver debuff.
Comments
Want to know why people leave?
Bad players on their team (since losing gives you almost nothing and winning gives you a lot, if you have 4 players that all run to home base you know you will lose, so what's the point of staying)
The need to get 500pts to get any glory, this means when the other team stomps your team and has 3 pt's under their control in seconds you will get nothing at all.
The daily quest gives you credit for two matches if you are on the top top 5 of the scoreboard, so finding a pug you can stomp is more time efficient.
All these are reasons why pugs leave matches. Honestly all of them are valid reasons. This doesn't even get into the cases where something happens in the house and they need to go.
You are arguing that the hard core community is large, I'm saying it's not, it's small. Why else would a pre-made vs pre-made match be so rare.
If you were right pre-mades would fight each other way more often than they do and the amount of pug teams would be far less. Which is the exact opposite of what actually happens.
That means the hard core pvp community is very small in comparison with the rest of the game. Even you agree it's the hardcore pvp community alone that would pvp with no rewards. Since NW is a small population niche game, this would eventually lead that small community to be a non-existant community, and the dev's would just concentrate on pve as pvp would be dead and gone.
Agree with everything besides this one. It's not filthy LOL, I'd hate to to see people getting mad because of things like this ever again and I think I'd leave just because I don't want to experience anything like this myself.
Some kind of gear tiers like in epic dungeons would be just awesome though, but not ELO or any other ranking system that requires player to play it constantly.
WTB Class Reroll please
The PvP playerbase is shrinking if anything. Make a new character, level 10-19 pops all day. The brackets get progressively more barren until you get to 60 where you are left with a handful of "hardcore PvP'ers"(such a joke term) and some PvE'ers looking to get the Artifact or grind out a companion.
For reference, this game was just released on Steam and it's F2P. Have you seen your population go up? From my experience in MMO's and other games, if the game you're playing doesn't start out on Steam but ends up on Steam, that's usually not a good sign.
Explosivo - Scrub geared MoF CW - Climb upon my BIG ASSED steed....
curent rewards are fine for lets say 2 lowest categories.and on 2 highest categories there need to be some some proffit involved .so having high gs and enchants should be rewarding not making people quit.
A ranking between guilds would actually be nice.
It is not unusual for my guild to have a full 5 people running a group for PvP, but we probably have 1 or 2 people that hardly ever PvP and are just working on their first set of T1 gear. Also we rarely bother to choose a class mix that is designed to compete against a "true" pre-made.
I would love to see some sort of PvP divisions, but I am not sure what the best way to do it would be.
relative nube i suppose, only been playing about a month, quested my way up to 60, and am busy going up through the campaigns for better equipment and boons. Didn't start pvping until a week ago, for the daily and the brutal armour set. And despite the problems, pvp is the most fun I've had so far in the game.
okay, 1 game in maybe 5 will be a bust, your team leaves, or you come up against a bunch of monster-gs players in one hit kill mode... but mostly, it's great.
The best thing is the queue time, ie. there isn't one, you queue, and 30 seconds later, you are playing. compare that to the dungeons, and its a very pleasant change.
whatever is done to make pvp more enjoyable, the low queue time should be maintained.
and thanks btw., to the many great pvp players ive been teamed with, I'll have that damned artifact in no time.
ps. I play a H/R range-melee hybrid, and wear a black shirt. Say hi.
This. Your experience as a "new lvl 60 pvper" is remarkably more enjoyable simply because you apparently farmed a good bit before jumping into matches. Get to level 60, farm for a solid 20 hours (seven days at 2.9 hours or whatever), or pay about $20.00 for gear, enchants and coals and pvp at lvl 60 is a whole different experience.
Jugger Conq GF
....
I have to agree 100% with you that the hardcore PvP community is small by comparison tot he rest of the game. But that being said the amount of players that will PvP is quite large. I spent almost 2 days about 3-4 hours each farming glory for my T1 set and it was rare that I got teamed up with the same players.
I also agree with your other post about why players choose to leave rather then stick out a match. But this goes back to my reasons for removing rewards from PvP. If you remove the rewards and add an arena you remove the need for premades that will ROFLSTOMP pugs. You remove the need to win matches fast as possible so you can get more matches in before the PvP event ends and in doing so will open up more player will to trade tactics and let you 1v1 them to learn how to fight other classes which we really don't have right now. For players just starting lvl60 pvp its a mad scramble to get points and trying to figure the best tactics to fight a class while having 3 other player attacking you is pretty freaking hard to do. And just to be clear, Im not suggesting removing rewards from all forms of PvP.
Maybe all we really need is just an arena that players can go to and PvP without competition. The easier it is for new players to learn and understand PvP the more likely they will enjoy competitive PvP and stick it out for a full match.
when a match starts have the game calculate the average gs of all the players involved and then warn those higher, beyond a certain margin, that their glory gain will be lowered correspondingly unless they de-equip down to nearer the average..? And that those with lower scores will have theirs raised, should they win.
then players can choose to go skills and teamwork, rather than just sit in their tank and walk over everyone with brute force.
pss. just got my shiny new artifact.
I tell ya bud, If I look around at the beginning of the match and see everyone in crappy gear that is 10 levels under their current level with no enchants you bet i'm leaving...and I should not be penalized for it. They should ... and practically they are after I leave. Sorry to say!
The only people getting penalized will be those who stay, the leaver is still immediately free to jump into another game, whatever their reason. Not everyone is playing for the rewards and that can really mess things up for those that are.
I wish I knew how it works but haven't found any detailed explanation yet. I might have looked at the wrong places but newbies might likely face the same problem.
I can't remember the program telling me how it works.
People can just leave and queue again immediately until they are the team standing around outside the graveyard waiting for the match to end. I would like to see something like a two or three hour debuff that prevents you from queuing for ANY PvP content. It's especially annoying since it doesn't place players into a match in progress. I've seen people get put into a match in progress a few times, but for the most part, once someone leaves that's it for your team. It's basically pug win trading and win trading should never be allowed to happen, especially when it's easily preventable.
When I queue up for PvP I want to actually compete against other players, not stand next to a point swapping back and forth to get a bit of extra glory (which isn't worth much anyway). It's boring and uninteresting. I understand there are balance issues between classes and bugs that need fixing, but that's not an excuse for this poor design.
TL;DR Add a 'leaver' debuff to players who prematurely leave PvP matches. It should be a long debuff to discourage quitting. Something like two or three hours.
And if somebody doesn't want to fight anymore and they know they will get penalized for leaving; Won't they just sit at the campfire afk? It would be the same exact thing as leaving. It would be basically a 4 v 5 match anyways.
And you completely ignored the campfire sitting problem. People won't leave if there is a penalty they will just start spawn sitting. Than they press Alt-Tab and do some other things for 10 mins or so.
This exactly, and lol at the response you got. "Punishing" people who leave solves nothing when they can just sit in the campfire afk. The problem is matchmaking, plain and simple, and it's pointless, not to mention a crappy attitude to have in the community, to start pointing fingers at each other instead.
My computer is completely fine and plenty of people are experiencing the same problem. I was in a guild called, "Coalition Saints", We live on different parts of the US and when we were on TS each of us would experience constant DCing.
As for the campfire sitting, so what? At the very least they are stuck in the match until it ends and can't just queue again, over and over until the other team quits and they get a free win. Another solution is to place a limit on how long you can sit in the graveyard before it boots you AND gives you the leaver debuff.