ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited January 2014
Agreed current tenacity changes require high end players to abandon defenses altogether for extreme burst damage to focus on a single tank. Too much stalemate as is. Tenacity and healing depression should be variables of a players existing gear score to avoid extremities
Hey guys, lots of feedback that is operating on a series of assumptions, so I wanted to step in and clarify some of the underlying logic behind these changes.
First and foremost, Tenacity is *not* designed to make lower geared players feel more competitive with high end kitted out players. While it will just by its very existence adjust how long it takes for them to get beaten, they should still get beaten every time. Tenacity however is designed to address a problem that we identified with PVP among players of similar skill. This problem is that PVP was often very binary. You either were fighting someone who would effectively vaporize you before you could respond if you didn't see them coming, or the person who managed to fire first won a vast majority of those encounters (*cough*Han Solo*cough*). While this isn't necessarily a bad thing, we wanted to introduce more chances for counterplay by giving players a longer time to live when under fire so they could at least get an opportunity to try and swing the fight back in their favor or request reinforcements. We are carefully monitoring how tanky this makes people however as we do not want the game to feel stagnant at higher levels. It's a very careful balancing act and that is why we have the stat on the Test Shard right now, and Devs are regularly jumping in to play it.
Second, we have heard what people are saying about wanting more gear options, so we are in the process of making more PVP pieces of gear that provide a wider array of stat allocations for players to use. These new sets will exist at T1, T2, and beyond. However they will all use the existing PVP set bonuses.
Third, about how many things Tenacity effects. This is actually not our first iteration of this stat. During its initial incarnation it interacted with the math in a very different way, and was originally was only base additional resistance. Player critical hits were still a rampant problem however and Crit became the go to offensive stat in all cases, so we needed to reign that in. When we added the Critical Hit resistance we fundamentally shifted the stat values in PVP unintentionally. Therefore Armor Penetration became the mathematically "right" stat to stack offensively, and we needed to curb both of those stats at roughly the same value, so we added Armor Penetration Depression to the stat. However with the changes to how Tenacity interacts with Defense and AC in the math, this may no longer be required, so we are monitoring it carefully to see if we can scale it back, or remove Armor Penetration Depression all together.
Finally, about matchmaking. We have people who have been working on an improved matchmaking system for a while now and we are hoping to get it out to you guys as soon as we can, but that is beyond the scope of this thread. However the context of it is important in that as I stated above, Tenacity is aimed at teams of roughly equal skill and gear, and was not intended to make low end players competitive with high end players.
Hopefully that clears up a lot of the questions!
Chris "Gentleman_Crush" Meyer
EDIT: For those looking to test, myself and a handful of other devs are on preview right now (11:20 AM PST) and will probably be on this afternoon as well (5pm or so PST)
First, let me say that this is the most exciting and comprehensive reply from a member of the development team that I have read to date; not because the subject (making pvp better) is of interest to me, but because it addresses our concerns in a very real way. Thank you very much for explaining this test system the way that you have. Bravo.
Second...wow I can't remember my second point now.
After reading your statements above, I am drawn to the following conclusion / train-of-thought:
reduce burst damage, so that the majority of players have a chance to react (as you have said above)
Since matches are now less front loaded, introduce healing suppression to even out the back-end duration of pvp encounters
Tenacity is aimed at teams of roughly equal skill and gear, and was not intended to make low end players competitive with high end players.
Chris "Gentleman_Crush" Meyer
EDIT: For those looking to test, myself and a handful of other devs are on preview right now (11:20 AM PST) and will probably be on this afternoon as well (5pm or so PST)
then if that isnt the case why introduce it at all whats the point of tenacity then? because right now high end teams of equal gear and skill dont even need the stat, also look at the lvl 1-59 games everyone is on an equal footing and it's decently balanced. if thats not the intent of tenacity you still saying low end players are still gonna get creamed. straight from the horses mouth.
Hey guys, lots of feedback that is operating on a series of assumptions, so I wanted to step in and clarify some of the underlying logic behind these changes.
First and foremost, Tenacity is *not* designed to make lower geared players feel more competitive with high end kitted out players. While it will just by its very existence adjust how long it takes for them to get beaten, they should still get beaten every time. Tenacity however is designed to address a problem that we identified with PVP among players of similar skill. This problem is that PVP was often very binary. You either were fighting someone who would effectively vaporize you before you could respond if you didn't see them coming, or the person who managed to fire first won a vast majority of those encounters (*cough*Han Solo*cough*). From my experience this almost never happened in an evenly matched game such as premade versus premade. The only time you will see things like 100-0 or a no chance fight is through mis-matched games. I am not against having tenacity but I think some other things need to change within the game IF this is going to work for pvp....While this isn't necessarily a bad thing, we wanted to introduce more chances for counterplay by giving players a longer time to live when under fire so they could at least get an opportunity to try and swing the fight back in their favor or request reinforcements. We are carefully monitoring how tanky this makes people however as we do not want the game to feel stagnant at higher levels.It already was stagnant. I posted a few times that a MAJOR reason ANY of this "tankiness" is an issue is because of the mechanics of pvp domination. The entier reason player make ultra tanky classes is because of "contesting" in domination. The BEST pvp strat is take a tanky character, throw him on a node to either cap points for your team, or make it so they dont get points. What I would URGE you guys to consider is remove contesting from pvp. This way the point is always going to tick either for your team or for their team, being ultra tanky but dealing no damage wont be a very good strat anymore since you wont be able to clear the point to cap it. This would bring ALOT of life back to pvp, make it MORE competitive, and also require more skill and teamwork. I think THIS would make Tenacity MORE viable since now players will try and not only maximize the ability to live, but also their damage output to enable them to actually CLEAR the node to cap it. It would probably work best as a "click/channel" type thing where you click it and it takes 6 seconds+ to channel and cap, then its your unless they click to start the capture. This removes the "stalemate" approach that has plagued PVP Domination for SO long. It's a very careful balancing act and that is why we have the stat on the Test Shard right now, and Devs are regularly jumping in to play it.
Second, we have heard what people are saying about wanting more gear options, so we are in the process of making more PVP pieces of gear that provide a wider array of stat allocations for players to use. These new sets will exist at T1, T2, and beyond. However they will all use the existing PVP set bonuses.
HUGE thank you here. If you would also not make them ALL the same means of obtaining that would be great. Maybe make SOME pvp T2 available for Glory maybe SOME PVP t1 gear from coins etc. Id honestly like to see BOTH sets available for EITHER coins OR glory so players can choose their method of pvp to obtain them. I cant tell you how many more issues will be created with this push for GG again so people can get T2 pvp gear... There is already an issue with a certain faction typically winning more often and also the fact people can only farm/play during a set time TO farm gear. An alternative would be offer GG ALL the time but only allow the dungeons to run at the set time, this would allow people to que for the PVP aspect of GG at anytime to get coins, but wouldnt be able to get the "tokens" for winning unless it was the certain time of day. I think youll find this would still create incentive to play at that time, but now is more flexibility to farm GG coins for gear.
Third, about how many things Tenacity effects. This is actually not our first iteration of this stat. During its initial incarnation it interacted with the math in a very different way, and was originally was only base additional resistance. Player critical hits were still a rampant problem however and Crit became the go to offensive stat in all cases, so we needed to reign that in. I still agree here, I DONT think just base DR is whats best. There is a reason vorpal/crit builds are the most favored and "BIS" as a result of this, I still hold that you can accomplish teh same thing here by reducing the PERCENT chance people have to crit. This wont mean crits do less damage it just means its much more rare to get really nice crits. I would also REALLY avoid doing flat decrease in crit since that hurts people differently, but have it multiplicative, meaning 900 tenacity reduces crit by 25% its 25% OF their crit chance, so a person with 40% crit will drop to 30% crit (25% drop) where a person with only 20% crit WONT go to 0% but now only drop to 15% ( a 25% drop) so it affects everyone equally. Same goes for ARP as well. Those are the two stats that you COULD have adjusted by tenacity.When we added the Critical Hit resistance we fundamentally shifted the stat values in PVP unintentionally. Therefore Armor Penetration became the mathematically "right" stat to stack offensively, and we needed to curb both of those stats at roughly the same value, so we added Armor Penetration Depression to the stat. However with the changes to how Tenacity interacts with Defense and AC in the math, this may no longer be required, so we are monitoring it carefully to see if we can scale it back, or remove Armor Penetration Depression all together.Again, remove flat DR boosts on tenacity and just have it affect crit/arp by a PERCENTAGE of current ARP/Crit. This way its an incentive to get pvp gear but not completely OP. I mean almost all classes use ARP but to varying degrees, so the more of 1 thing you stack, the more it will nerf that 1 stat, creates a more balanced approach and opens up a more diversity of builds from just the crit/vorpal build. Combined with removing contesting (above) this will be a WHOLE different pvp experience.
Finally, about matchmaking. We have people who have been working on an improved matchmaking system for a while now and we are hoping to get it out to you guys as soon as we can, but that is beyond the scope of this thread. However the context of it is important in that as I stated above, Tenacity is aimed at teams of roughly equal skill and gear, and was not intended to make low end players competitive with high end players.Thanks a TON for this, I would implore you to create a "ranking" system for pvp. COuld just be based upon wins losses, could be based upon some sort of XP gained lost or whatever. But that is what creates incentive to pvp ALOT - to be the best. If you JUST create matchmaking youll really have no way to match up skill as a factor. GS ques have too many issues. Just create a rank system and que based upon that.
Also more feedback is TEAMs that que should be set up against other TEAMs that que, not random single players. So maybe add a feature where if 4-5 players que together, it waits in search for another 4-5 players that que together.
Hopefully that clears up a lot of the questions!
Chris "Gentleman_Crush" Meyer
EDIT: For those looking to test, myself and a handful of other devs are on preview right now (11:20 AM PST) and will probably be on this afternoon as well (5pm or so PST)
then if that isnt the case why introduce it at all whats the point of tenacity then? because right now high end teams of equal gear and skill dont even need the stat, also look at the lvl 1-59 games everyone is on an equal footing and it's decently balanced. if thats not the intent of tenacity you still saying low end players are still gonna get creamed. straight from the horses mouth.
This is exactly what I've been saying since april..
And infact the exact thing I've said that will happen due to the lack of proper matchmaking/sub divisions is happening now.
Only now the devs are seeing theres a problem, when this was put forth much earlier that it would be. And thats the only thing pvp really needed from the start. Tenacity doesnt do jack to change much other than everything to a more negetive perspective of the core pvp exp as a whole, adding more problems than its supposed to fix.
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shunterinoMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
It's good to get clarification that geared vs ungeared isn't the focus of this change but the kind of vaporizing mentioned only happens in those kind of fights. Well geared vs well geared doesn't have a problem with one-shotting except for maybe prone locking which I don't think tenacity doesn't affects. In fact the only OP factor in PVP is GWF immortality which tenacity only makes more immortal. It's good to know how you guys are thinking, it's just a shame it's completely mystifying why you think that way.
"You either were fighting someone who would effectively vaporize you before you could respond if you didn't see them coming, or the person who managed to fire first won a vast majority of those encounters" just doesn't seem a big issue, certainly aren't many threads QQing about it.
P.S. If anyone gets into a match with the Devs on Mimic please post a video, would love to see it.
I'm not a solid PVP-er. My TR only has Lesser Soulforged and Lesser Bilethorn, but I believe myself to be an experienced "trickster" in PVP. I'm sort of getting the reasoning behind Tenacity after I played those matches with you devs. I managed to play 2 matches, pretty fun and completely unlike the usual PUG matches I get since I'm not part of any of the big PVP guilds so I rarely ever get to join premade matches. But one thing I noticed is that it's awesome how less we heal in those matches. I'm currently able to out-DPS a GWF's Regeneration and Unstoppable Temp. HP. While the process is slow (as it should be), I feel like I have a better chance of putting some harm against them rather than just contesting the node where they are currently placed. But there are many factors that I may have overlooked in the match, such as the opponent's approximate gear score and class build. But nonetheless, I can play against a GWF. It's a start. They seem to still hit pretty hard, but not as hard as they do in the Live Server. And for some reason Prones are longer than usual. Still not able to react against their CC.
Even though the game was continuously lagging on me, because for some reason my client is doing an on-demand patch in the middle of PVP, I must say that it's a new experience. I'm hitting for less damage but so is my opponent. This gives us some room to actually try and use our surroundings to our advantage as matches tend to be prolonged by DR. Though I'm still advocating the complete removal of Armor Penetration Suppression. DR from gear and DR from Tenacity is enough. Suppressing ArPen makes things unnecessarily slower in matches, as per my experience in Preview.
I also would like to raise how unfair Healing Depression is for Clerics. One possible solution I thought of for this is to remove Righteousness in its entirety. This will improve the clerics survival in PVE, and allow the cleric to still have his heals to stave off death from himself and his allies in PVP. If I remember correctly, Righteousness was imposed in order to make the Cleric's heals to be not too effective for PVP. Since we have a better solution for PVP in its entirety in terms of heals, which is Healing Depression, I think it would be best if Righteousness just got scrapped.
I'm looking forward to testing the future updates in Tenacity with you guys again in the future! I rarely get to fight such good opponents!
Big shout out to Archwizard Crush for sticking around and fielding some suggestions and questions - That really made my day. It's great to have some interaction with the team.
Looking forward to getting punched in the face irl when I play GWF
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Big shout out to Archwizard Crush for sticking around and fielding some suggestions and questions - That really made my day. It's great to have some interaction with the team.
Looking forward to getting punched in the face irl when I play GWF
Indeed, thanks for dropping by and playing and listen to us. It's a shame I got left out of the last match by the queue Such developer-player interactions should happen on a regular basis.
I hope that our feedback and the matches we played will help you further improve the system
Indeed, thanks for dropping by and playing and listen to us. It's a shame I got left out of the last match by the queue Such developer-player interactions should happen on a regular basis.
I hope that our feedback and the matches we played will help you further improve the system
Really good games on the Preview Shard and Archwizard Crush did a great job fielding questions. I hope that there is more of this type of interaction and perhaps even a weekly DEV blog on when they can participate in matches.
Tenacity in my experience is actually quite nice as is the Healing Depression in General as long as your not a DC. The DC will need some kind of baseline buff to offset the Healing Depression but that is fine because the current system makes stalemating so boring.
We need more in this community to step up tonight at 5pm Pacific to give adequate feedback to the DEV team. They said they will have a full premade and they will then field questions afterwards in the Trade of Blades.
All-in-All I have gone from a skeptic to a full-out fan of the recent changes and I look forward to more DEV interactions in the future.
Big shout out to Archwizard Crush for sticking around and fielding some suggestions and questions - That really made my day. It's great to have some interaction with the team.
Looking forward to getting punched in the face irl when I play GWF
I thought you wanted this to be roundhouse kicked to the face?
Thanks again devs for being there and I'll be back on later for more, it's just REALLY REALLY GREAT to have interaction and to be able to voice problems.
With that said, I like the new changes but I think that likely the tenacity at least on current gear needs to be toned down, maybe as others have suggested by toning down the arm pen or crit, I'm not sure. I feel like for now we should do more damage than we currently do, especially since I saw some "extra" tenacity stats on the devs and likely future armor will have more as well. We really don't have a way to gain much more in damage from our current builds, so be sure not to make us too tanky now without considering we will be that much more tanky in the future without really getting much more damage to be able to take people out.
As others have said, DC's probably need to have Righteousness removed or halved at least, TRs I feel have a distinct advantage because of their ability to stay stealthed as well and maybe something as simple as if you are in combat for a certain period of time healing depression kicks in, could fix this. As it stands I have been on TR and GWF, and honestly both feel a little too powerful currently. For the test later I will try to hop on CW or DC and see how that goes.
I have transferred my pvp CW on preview. It's an oppressor, designed to freeze stuff and people quickly to give my team breathing time, peeling enemies HPs with tabbed chill strike while being quite tanky: 1.5k lifesteal, some regen and deflect. Well, i felt like i was only worth being farmed for kills by the TR and the GWF. The only class i felt i could match were the CW and the cleric.
Chill is on live the pivot point of my oppressor build. Now it can barely hold people with it. I can't chill them half of the time like on preview now. Of course i was more tanky, but it didn't make any difference. I've been able to escape GWFs stuns a few times (and this is a great improvement), but not enough to do something meaningful for my team. I haven't been able to 1 vs 1 a TR successfully, and this is a big change to me. On live, I can currently use chill successfully to at least seriously annoying them (or freeze them till death from ice knife). So far, my conclusion is that now oppressor is extremely underperforming in pvp. It lacks the debuffs from thaumaturge or the straight damage increases from renegade, since chill is now a lot less useful.
On the other hand, debuffs are now the way to go for every class and every build. I've seen a direct performance increase when i swapped conduit of ice with ray of enfeeblement (none of them were feated or on mastery), but still not enough to do anything but pure support damage and debuff. This is a big change to the role of the CW in pvp, from the controller with quite nice burst damage to the pure support damage and debuff not being able to solo any class but another cw or maybe a cleric. In this match, all CWs died at least 15 times each while GWFs barely took a scratch.
Only one match played so far but the teams were quite balanced since i've been able to inspect everyone before the queue.
Feedback: the emblem of seldarine artifact.
This is completely OP, ticks from every dot damage and is a god mode for 15s. This needs a balance pass.
Emblem was acknowledged by Archwizard Crush as being OP and he said that he would make that point in his internal testing currently going on as I post. I am sure that this will get toned down in the next major patch from its current form.
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kozahmiekalMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 20Arc User
Emblem was acknowledged by Archwizard Crush as being OP and he said that he would make that point in his internal testing currently going on as I post. I am sure that this will get toned down in the next major patch from its current form.
Confirmed. It sounded like he had a plan to tone down emblem (icd of 1 proc / sec was suggested) and he also had some fixes for GWF that sounded like it would tone them down a bit as well.
Yes I wish everyone would stop judging the whole class of GWF off of one spec. I do not have one sentinel GWF through all 3 of mine.
Haters gna Hate, Deep Gash wont affect change on Sentinel PvP'ers as much as it will Hurt PVE GWF's. I feel bad for PVE GWF's Only source of DPS we have, Might as well re-roll another class since PvE GWF will be useless once again
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
For those interested, some of the possible GWF adjustments:
- Threatening Rush
- animation canceling
- Deep Gash
The devs don't want to make GWF less viable on PvE; they would just make them "do damage due to innate capabilities, instead of a broken feat" (approximative quote).
So in the end, PvE GWF should end up with same damage output, which is good.
Tenacity is also present on some other gear than GG/Glory set, and some new artifacts are in the works, but if you wanna see these, you should go on and test things on preview, since we barely got 10 people together from an entire game that had an interest in this.
Yes I wish everyone would stop judging the whole class of GWF off of one spec. I do not have one sentinel GWF through all 3 of mine.
Haters gna Hate, Deep Gash wont affect change on Sentinel PvP'ers as much as it will Hurt PVE GWF's. I feel bad for PVE GWF's Only source of DPS we have, Might as well re-roll another class since PvE GWF will be useless once again Unless Of course they Implement another source of DMG increase for GWF's, since the "buff" that were made on Mod 2 to GWF's would now mean nothing
For those interested, some of the possible GWF adjustments:
- Threatening Rush
- animation canceling
- Deep Gash
IMO this would be TOTALLY missing the point. What SHOULD be changed are:
- Sentinel Aegis - Provides TOO much DR, needs to be reduced. Currently adds about 15% DR to my Sent GWF. Id honestly like to see this dropped down quite a bit maybe increase defense by 20% so if your at 33% DR from defense (20% of 33% = 6.6% increased DR) Down from a 15%+ DR boost.
- Powerful Challenge - Reduce the Damage boost and increase threat instead. Something like 1.5/3/4.5/6/8% increased damage and threat to marked targets. Still adds damage and now helps for tanking...
-Master at Arms - This may end up being overkill, but have AC the stacks add 1/2/3/4/5 AC instead of a flat AC boost, each stack should have to be added to gain AC. So this is something that needs to be built up.
- Threatening Rush
- animation canceling
- Deep Gash
[blablabla...]
1 and 2 is the same. Animation cancellation of threatening rush. I could not think of any other "fixes" since threatening rush is not broken, at all.
#edit: Now i see, you guys cried the hell out about the GWF and now the devs are taking the wrong suggestions of the wrong people. Hopefully they aren't going to ruin an entire class (again), just because a bunch of lovely people fail to cope with certain game mechanics/situations or are jealous about certain aspects of the GWF, which their class might be lacking/cannot counter easily.
IMO this would be TOTALLY missing the point. What SHOULD be changed are:
- Sentinel Aegis - Provides TOO much DR, needs to be reduced. Currently adds about 15% DR to my Sent GWF. Id honestly like to see this dropped down quite a bit maybe increase defense by 20% so if your at 33% DR from defense (20% of 33% = 6.6% increased DR) Down from a 15%+ DR boost.
- Powerful Challenge - Reduce the Damage boost and increase threat instead. Something like 1.5/3/4.5/6/8% increased damage and threat to marked targets. Still adds damage and now helps for tanking...
-Master at Arms - This may end up being overkill, but have AC the stacks add 1/2/3/4/5 AC instead of a flat AC boost, each stack should have to be added to gain AC. So this is something that needs to be built up.
Sentinel's Aegis is only giving me 8% DR.
Powerful Challenge is just fine, 15% increase damage on mark Targets, Targets that are marked can swing one time and its gone, its very difficult to use correctly as is, and work's as intended. Take one hit and mark is gone. So this feat is fine as is.
Master at Arms and Sentinel's Aeigs are the sole Purpose of Being a Tanky GWF, and not going Destroyer, Fix these and the Tanky GWF will die. Specially If Tenacity goes through as is.
Deep gash "Fix" I dont see whats wrong with this "Bleed" a Bleed is intended to Bleed for the DMG you deal, Tooltip Error imo.
Tenacity will only Decrease all of these even more, Further removing more dmg/tankiness from the class. which would then turn into more QQ on the forums ,and another rework of the class, since the game has been released for almost 9 months now, you would assume one could finally settle down with a build/setup, guess not.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
1 and 2 is the same. Animation cancellation of threatening rush. I could not think of any other "fixes" since threatening rush is not broken, at all.
#edit: Now i see, you guys cried the hell out about the GWF and now the devs are taking the wrong suggestions of the wrong people. Hopefully they aren't going to ruin an entire class (again), just because a bunch of lovely people fail to cope with certain game mechanics/situations or are jealous about certain aspects of the GWF, which their class might be lacking/cannot counter easily.
And I thought I would make some people here a service and let them know things that were discussed.
I have personally didn't propose/suggest any "fix" or "nerf" about any class. Some of my friends in the game are GWFs and I'd like to know they remain viable.
For this reason, when Deep Gash was discussed, I mentioned that any nerfs to this feat would not impact GWF well in PvE, so any changes should be done carefully so GWF remains viable.
As for GWFs in PvP, the dev that played with us sported a CW. Both of us had the occasion to face stox's awesome GWF. Pretty sure the devs will draw their own conclusions about how things are in PvP (hint: GWFs usually ended up with fewest deaths, most kills, CW just about 0.5 K/D ratio best case).
I dunno what to say. I guess we have to wait to see the next round of changes.
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
Right now Threatening Rush and Deep Gash are just stupid. GWF is my other main and I will welcome this change. Sents will continue to be OP, regardless.
first, thanks gentleman_crush for the updated information about upcoming pvp changes.
secondly, i would have played more matches on preview but there just isn't a whole lot of players on the preview shard other than forum dwellers and most of those people are on the higher end of pvp'ers (aka pvp-heavy guild members).
and lastly, i didn't see that much of a difference. the matches didn't seem to last longer than usual. i use a thaumaturge build and i was using mostly r8 enchants with GG pvp gear. the exact math stuff on stuff i don't really pay attention to, but then again, i don't think most of neverwinter does. i think most people just want to play and have fun. any way that you guys can make that work, more power to you.
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited January 2014
Feedback: 1/21/14 PvP with the Devs
The Tenacity changes are not nearly as detrimental to high-end PvP as many have anticipated, myself included. It results in no more stalemating than I currently see on Live.
Clerics simply cannot heal for enough. It was more efficient to just DPS a target through the cleric's heals then move on to the cleric afterwords.
Sentinels remain the most survivable and highest damage dealers in the game.
My GF hasn't changed much. He can tank anyone 1v1 (except the most extreme GWFs), and always tank 2v1 long enough for backup (assuming there isn't an extreme GWF), but is quickly decimated with worse odds than that. I had to drop some survivability from my gearing to increase my damage to a meaningful amount with the new Tenacity changes.
GF simply don't have a lot of good options for damage outside of Conqueror. It was remarked that GF were "too tanky," but that is the point of my build. If my GF's survivability was lowered any more than it currently is, there would be no point in speccing into anything but Conqueror and going for all-out burst damage. Which, if I wanted to do this, I would roll a rogue instead.
I was using perfects and rank 9s. Devs were similarly equipped as was the majority of my party.
Addendum: Please revert Knight's Challenge back to the way it was until you are sure you can implement it in a working fashion. While you're at it, maybe change Knight's Valor to a regular cooldown so that it isn't bugged anymore either. Griffon Strike is still worthless. Bull Charge renders you immune to CC during animation, not sure if intended. The new "tab" mark does not, despite its description, last until another tab mark is made.
So I had a chance to play my other 2 classes tonight. I would say DC is still very very difficult to kill, but man I feel like I can't heal anyone for anything, much less myself. Also stat allocation for DC on the pvp set is terrible, but hopefully a new set will fix that. I liked the CW for this, added enough to the tankiness that it wasn't as frustrating, but I also feel it lacks the DPS to kill certain classes now. Would need to try more 1v1s to make sure, but the damage does feel a bit lower than I think it should.
The Tenacity changes are not nearly as detrimental to high-end PvP as many have anticipated, myself included. It results in no more stalemating than I currently see on Live.
ummm I hope your joking. No more stalemating than what you currently see in live?
How about this, open challenge to any player: Simply kill me to prove that the devs didn't go way overboard on the defensive buffs.
I will be out of stealth the entire time except for the very beginning. If ANYONE is able to kill me I will gladly say that this is a good change, but its simply wont happen..
I really hate these changes. It takes forever to kill someone now. I have to change all of my encounters as well as start using DF now. My old build is no longer viable. Moves like lashing blade and impact shot now do laughable damage, are easy to dodge, and have long cooldowns
Lashing is one of the keys to be able to beat GWFs. During the small window when unstoppable is over and the next one is yet to start, you can use lashing and hope for a big crit. Sometimes its enough to get them from like 70% to 50% (or less) before they can unstoppable again. Then u can finish them off with shocking. now, however, lashing seems like a pointless move
My entire build and play style must be changed because of tenacity which is infuriating
Comments
First, let me say that this is the most exciting and comprehensive reply from a member of the development team that I have read to date; not because the subject (making pvp better) is of interest to me, but because it addresses our concerns in a very real way. Thank you very much for explaining this test system the way that you have. Bravo.
Second...wow I can't remember my second point now.
After reading your statements above, I am drawn to the following conclusion / train-of-thought:
then if that isnt the case why introduce it at all whats the point of tenacity then? because right now high end teams of equal gear and skill dont even need the stat, also look at the lvl 1-59 games everyone is on an equal footing and it's decently balanced. if thats not the intent of tenacity you still saying low end players are still gonna get creamed. straight from the horses mouth.
I have put thoughts into your quote in Blue so I could pinpoint what I am responding to. I urge you to read it.
And infact the exact thing I've said that will happen due to the lack of proper matchmaking/sub divisions is happening now.
Only now the devs are seeing theres a problem, when this was put forth much earlier that it would be. And thats the only thing pvp really needed from the start. Tenacity doesnt do jack to change much other than everything to a more negetive perspective of the core pvp exp as a whole, adding more problems than its supposed to fix.
"You either were fighting someone who would effectively vaporize you before you could respond if you didn't see them coming, or the person who managed to fire first won a vast majority of those encounters" just doesn't seem a big issue, certainly aren't many threads QQing about it.
P.S. If anyone gets into a match with the Devs on Mimic please post a video, would love to see it.
IGN: Banelorne Fallbanner.
Class: Trickster Rogue.
Gear Score (Preview): 12,094
Tenacity: ~800
I'm not a solid PVP-er. My TR only has Lesser Soulforged and Lesser Bilethorn, but I believe myself to be an experienced "trickster" in PVP. I'm sort of getting the reasoning behind Tenacity after I played those matches with you devs. I managed to play 2 matches, pretty fun and completely unlike the usual PUG matches I get since I'm not part of any of the big PVP guilds so I rarely ever get to join premade matches. But one thing I noticed is that it's awesome how less we heal in those matches. I'm currently able to out-DPS a GWF's Regeneration and Unstoppable Temp. HP. While the process is slow (as it should be), I feel like I have a better chance of putting some harm against them rather than just contesting the node where they are currently placed. But there are many factors that I may have overlooked in the match, such as the opponent's approximate gear score and class build. But nonetheless, I can play against a GWF. It's a start. They seem to still hit pretty hard, but not as hard as they do in the Live Server. And for some reason Prones are longer than usual. Still not able to react against their CC.
Even though the game was continuously lagging on me, because for some reason my client is doing an on-demand patch in the middle of PVP, I must say that it's a new experience. I'm hitting for less damage but so is my opponent. This gives us some room to actually try and use our surroundings to our advantage as matches tend to be prolonged by DR. Though I'm still advocating the complete removal of Armor Penetration Suppression. DR from gear and DR from Tenacity is enough. Suppressing ArPen makes things unnecessarily slower in matches, as per my experience in Preview.
I also would like to raise how unfair Healing Depression is for Clerics. One possible solution I thought of for this is to remove Righteousness in its entirety. This will improve the clerics survival in PVE, and allow the cleric to still have his heals to stave off death from himself and his allies in PVP. If I remember correctly, Righteousness was imposed in order to make the Cleric's heals to be not too effective for PVP. Since we have a better solution for PVP in its entirety in terms of heals, which is Healing Depression, I think it would be best if Righteousness just got scrapped.
I'm looking forward to testing the future updates in Tenacity with you guys again in the future! I rarely get to fight such good opponents!
Big shout out to Archwizard Crush for sticking around and fielding some suggestions and questions - That really made my day. It's great to have some interaction with the team.
Looking forward to getting punched in the face irl when I play GWF
Indeed, thanks for dropping by and playing and listen to us. It's a shame I got left out of the last match by the queue
I hope that our feedback and the matches we played will help you further improve the system
Really good games on the Preview Shard and Archwizard Crush did a great job fielding questions. I hope that there is more of this type of interaction and perhaps even a weekly DEV blog on when they can participate in matches.
Tenacity in my experience is actually quite nice as is the Healing Depression in General as long as your not a DC. The DC will need some kind of baseline buff to offset the Healing Depression but that is fine because the current system makes stalemating so boring.
We need more in this community to step up tonight at 5pm Pacific to give adequate feedback to the DEV team. They said they will have a full premade and they will then field questions afterwards in the Trade of Blades.
All-in-All I have gone from a skeptic to a full-out fan of the recent changes and I look forward to more DEV interactions in the future.
I thought you wanted this to be roundhouse kicked to the face?
Thanks again devs for being there and I'll be back on later for more, it's just REALLY REALLY GREAT to have interaction and to be able to voice problems.
With that said, I like the new changes but I think that likely the tenacity at least on current gear needs to be toned down, maybe as others have suggested by toning down the arm pen or crit, I'm not sure. I feel like for now we should do more damage than we currently do, especially since I saw some "extra" tenacity stats on the devs and likely future armor will have more as well. We really don't have a way to gain much more in damage from our current builds, so be sure not to make us too tanky now without considering we will be that much more tanky in the future without really getting much more damage to be able to take people out.
As others have said, DC's probably need to have Righteousness removed or halved at least, TRs I feel have a distinct advantage because of their ability to stay stealthed as well and maybe something as simple as if you are in combat for a certain period of time healing depression kicks in, could fix this. As it stands I have been on TR and GWF, and honestly both feel a little too powerful currently. For the test later I will try to hop on CW or DC and see how that goes.
I have transferred my pvp CW on preview. It's an oppressor, designed to freeze stuff and people quickly to give my team breathing time, peeling enemies HPs with tabbed chill strike while being quite tanky: 1.5k lifesteal, some regen and deflect. Well, i felt like i was only worth being farmed for kills by the TR and the GWF. The only class i felt i could match were the CW and the cleric.
Chill is on live the pivot point of my oppressor build. Now it can barely hold people with it. I can't chill them half of the time like on preview now. Of course i was more tanky, but it didn't make any difference. I've been able to escape GWFs stuns a few times (and this is a great improvement), but not enough to do something meaningful for my team. I haven't been able to 1 vs 1 a TR successfully, and this is a big change to me. On live, I can currently use chill successfully to at least seriously annoying them (or freeze them till death from ice knife). So far, my conclusion is that now oppressor is extremely underperforming in pvp. It lacks the debuffs from thaumaturge or the straight damage increases from renegade, since chill is now a lot less useful.
On the other hand, debuffs are now the way to go for every class and every build. I've seen a direct performance increase when i swapped conduit of ice with ray of enfeeblement (none of them were feated or on mastery), but still not enough to do anything but pure support damage and debuff. This is a big change to the role of the CW in pvp, from the controller with quite nice burst damage to the pure support damage and debuff not being able to solo any class but another cw or maybe a cleric. In this match, all CWs died at least 15 times each while GWFs barely took a scratch.
Only one match played so far but the teams were quite balanced since i've been able to inspect everyone before the queue.
Feedback: the emblem of seldarine artifact.
This is completely OP, ticks from every dot damage and is a god mode for 15s. This needs a balance pass.
Emblem was acknowledged by Archwizard Crush as being OP and he said that he would make that point in his internal testing currently going on as I post. I am sure that this will get toned down in the next major patch from its current form.
Confirmed. It sounded like he had a plan to tone down emblem (icd of 1 proc / sec was suggested) and he also had some fixes for GWF that sounded like it would tone them down a bit as well.
Yes I wish everyone would stop judging the whole class of GWF off of one spec. I do not have one sentinel GWF through all 3 of mine.
you need Half amount that pvp sets give to GF GWF to make them less tankie
Tr Need some kinda stealth nerf the ITC and Stealth with new 50% healing debuff is kind of annoying
Plz don t go making nerfs to class that effect PVE this new stat should aim to stop this
Haters gna Hate, Deep Gash wont affect change on Sentinel PvP'ers as much as it will Hurt PVE GWF's. I feel bad for PVE GWF's
- Threatening Rush
- animation canceling
- Deep Gash
The devs don't want to make GWF less viable on PvE; they would just make them "do damage due to innate capabilities, instead of a broken feat" (approximative quote).
So in the end, PvE GWF should end up with same damage output, which is good.
Tenacity is also present on some other gear than GG/Glory set, and some new artifacts are in the works, but if you wanna see these, you should go on and test things on preview, since we barely got 10 people together from an entire game that had an interest in this.
Haters gna Hate, Deep Gash wont affect change on Sentinel PvP'ers as much as it will Hurt PVE GWF's. I feel bad for PVE GWF's
IMO this would be TOTALLY missing the point. What SHOULD be changed are:
- Sentinel Aegis - Provides TOO much DR, needs to be reduced. Currently adds about 15% DR to my Sent GWF. Id honestly like to see this dropped down quite a bit maybe increase defense by 20% so if your at 33% DR from defense (20% of 33% = 6.6% increased DR) Down from a 15%+ DR boost.
- Powerful Challenge - Reduce the Damage boost and increase threat instead. Something like 1.5/3/4.5/6/8% increased damage and threat to marked targets. Still adds damage and now helps for tanking...
-Master at Arms - This may end up being overkill, but have AC the stacks add 1/2/3/4/5 AC instead of a flat AC boost, each stack should have to be added to gain AC. So this is something that needs to be built up.
1 and 2 is the same. Animation cancellation of threatening rush. I could not think of any other "fixes" since threatening rush is not broken, at all.
#edit: Now i see, you guys cried the hell out about the GWF and now the devs are taking the wrong suggestions of the wrong people. Hopefully they aren't going to ruin an entire class (again), just because a bunch of lovely people fail to cope with certain game mechanics/situations or are jealous about certain aspects of the GWF, which their class might be lacking/cannot counter easily.
Sentinel's Aegis is only giving me 8% DR.
Powerful Challenge is just fine, 15% increase damage on mark Targets, Targets that are marked can swing one time and its gone, its very difficult to use correctly as is, and work's as intended. Take one hit and mark is gone. So this feat is fine as is.
Master at Arms and Sentinel's Aeigs are the sole Purpose of Being a Tanky GWF, and not going Destroyer, Fix these and the Tanky GWF will die. Specially If Tenacity goes through as is.
Deep gash "Fix" I dont see whats wrong with this "Bleed" a Bleed is intended to Bleed for the DMG you deal, Tooltip Error imo.
Tenacity will only Decrease all of these even more, Further removing more dmg/tankiness from the class. which would then turn into more QQ on the forums ,and another rework of the class, since the game has been released for almost 9 months now, you would assume one could finally settle down with a build/setup, guess not.
And I thought I would make some people here a service and let them know things that were discussed.
I have personally didn't propose/suggest any "fix" or "nerf" about any class. Some of my friends in the game are GWFs and I'd like to know they remain viable.
For this reason, when Deep Gash was discussed, I mentioned that any nerfs to this feat would not impact GWF well in PvE, so any changes should be done carefully so GWF remains viable.
As for GWFs in PvP, the dev that played with us sported a CW. Both of us had the occasion to face stox's awesome GWF. Pretty sure the devs will draw their own conclusions about how things are in PvP (hint: GWFs usually ended up with fewest deaths, most kills, CW just about 0.5 K/D ratio best case).
I dunno what to say. I guess we have to wait to see the next round of changes.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
first, thanks gentleman_crush for the updated information about upcoming pvp changes.
secondly, i would have played more matches on preview but there just isn't a whole lot of players on the preview shard other than forum dwellers and most of those people are on the higher end of pvp'ers (aka pvp-heavy guild members).
and lastly, i didn't see that much of a difference. the matches didn't seem to last longer than usual. i use a thaumaturge build and i was using mostly r8 enchants with GG pvp gear. the exact math stuff on stuff i don't really pay attention to, but then again, i don't think most of neverwinter does. i think most people just want to play and have fun. any way that you guys can make that work, more power to you.
The Tenacity changes are not nearly as detrimental to high-end PvP as many have anticipated, myself included. It results in no more stalemating than I currently see on Live.
Clerics simply cannot heal for enough. It was more efficient to just DPS a target through the cleric's heals then move on to the cleric afterwords.
Sentinels remain the most survivable and highest damage dealers in the game.
My GF hasn't changed much. He can tank anyone 1v1 (except the most extreme GWFs), and always tank 2v1 long enough for backup (assuming there isn't an extreme GWF), but is quickly decimated with worse odds than that. I had to drop some survivability from my gearing to increase my damage to a meaningful amount with the new Tenacity changes.
GF simply don't have a lot of good options for damage outside of Conqueror. It was remarked that GF were "too tanky," but that is the point of my build. If my GF's survivability was lowered any more than it currently is, there would be no point in speccing into anything but Conqueror and going for all-out burst damage. Which, if I wanted to do this, I would roll a rogue instead.
I was using perfects and rank 9s. Devs were similarly equipped as was the majority of my party.
Addendum: Please revert Knight's Challenge back to the way it was until you are sure you can implement it in a working fashion. While you're at it, maybe change Knight's Valor to a regular cooldown so that it isn't bugged anymore either. Griffon Strike is still worthless. Bull Charge renders you immune to CC during animation, not sure if intended. The new "tab" mark does not, despite its description, last until another tab mark is made.
ummm I hope your joking. No more stalemating than what you currently see in live?
How about this, open challenge to any player: Simply kill me to prove that the devs didn't go way overboard on the defensive buffs.
I will be out of stealth the entire time except for the very beginning. If ANYONE is able to kill me I will gladly say that this is a good change, but its simply wont happen..
I really hate these changes. It takes forever to kill someone now. I have to change all of my encounters as well as start using DF now. My old build is no longer viable. Moves like lashing blade and impact shot now do laughable damage, are easy to dodge, and have long cooldowns
Lashing is one of the keys to be able to beat GWFs. During the small window when unstoppable is over and the next one is yet to start, you can use lashing and hope for a big crit. Sometimes its enough to get them from like 70% to 50% (or less) before they can unstoppable again. Then u can finish them off with shocking. now, however, lashing seems like a pointless move
My entire build and play style must be changed because of tenacity which is infuriating