Good changes! Now the era of easy killing ends and freaks of high numbers can be dragged to normal grounds. I am looking forward to test these changes more.
The only downside is that we do not have much variety in PvP gear. Cool thing is the difference between Glory PvP gear and Gauntlgrym PvP gear.
There seem to be issues with the Block of the Guardian Fighters, but have to look further into this.
10% bonus control resist (base pvp)
+18% control resist (gg armor set)
+10% control resist (Halfling)
+x% control resist (stat mod - typically WIS - and in my HRs case 5%)
= 43% control resistance
This is simply too high.
Max control effectiveness (in pvp, so no companion active bonus):
15% (Orb of Imposition)
+x% (stat mod WIS, let's say 10 to be very generous - my pvp cw has 5)
+5% (Shard of Valindra's Crown, Legendary)
=+30%
Unfortunately this isn't quite how your control resistance works yet. We will be doing an Audit of sources of CC resist to make sure those numbers all make sense, but those numbers will likely change once everything is affected in a way that makes sense. Additionally Prones might not be respecting CC resist and strength properly, which is where those resistance will be noticed most heavily.
EDIT: Reminder, guys this thread is for feedback after playing with tenacity. If you want to have a discussion on the merits of a PVP stat existing or the class balance without having actually tried it, please open a different thread. This thread is so we can make much more targeted and effective changes to make this a better feature, and posts that don't contribute to that cause can actively make it more difficult to get real feedback that would improve PVP. We are trying to make PVP more fun for everyone, so please play the changes and see how they work in practice.
well so now it is time to buff pve regen a little go become usefull, since it will be nerfed by half with the new system. regen could use a good buff for pve content, specially when the characters are still with more than half their hp.
on the rest I agree, maybe this will be enough to stop the nerfs on pve classes and equipment.
Unfortunately this isn't quite how your control resistance works yet. We will be doing an Audit of sources of CC resist to make sure those numbers all make sense, but those numbers will likely change once everything is affected in a way that makes sense. Additionally Prones might not be respecting CC resist and strength properly, which is where those resistance will be noticed most heavily.
EDIT: Reminder, guys this thread is for feedback after playing with tenacity. If you want to have a discussion on the merits of a PVP stat existing or the class balance without having actually tried it, please open a different thread. This thread is so we can make much more targeted and effective changes to make this a better feature, and posts that don't contribute to that cause can actively make it more difficult to get real feedback that would improve PVP. We are trying to make PVP more fun for everyone, so please play the changes and see how they work in practice.
Thanks a lot for the reply, I really appreciate it.
I'll keep your suggestion in mind for the future.
I tested this changes on preview shard and all i can say its big dissapointment, i wont give any specific feedback because whole idea of separate stat/gear for pvp is killing fun in pvp, it kills fun of people with unique gear/builds.
You want to make pvp less bursty, maybe convince ppl to get defensive items instead of having ~900 def 20k hp and crying they got 1shotted".
Pretty much add this system and Neverwinter online will become PVE only.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited January 2014
Feedback: Gearing Tenacity should either apply as a static debuff to all players or should be based on the gear level you are wearing. It should not be only for PvP Gear.
This will push people further into needing two different gear sets for PvP and PvE.
If you want you can have innate resistances and gear resistances as you have now but all gear should have the same or negligible differences in Tenacity ratings. PvP gear currently works in PvE and PvE Gear currently works in PvP. Keep it that way.
Feedback: Class Differences
And again I can't stress enough, these changes need to be more CLASS SPECIFIC.
GWF's don't need more CC Resist.
GF's don't need a Crit Reduction.
Clerics most certainly don't need a healing reduction.
Each class has it's strengths and weaknesses. Putting a flat reduction doesn't solve how some of these strengths are too high or too low in regards to PvP
mod note part two: reiterating, this thread is for feedback from individuals that have tested the new feature. there is a thread for speculative discussions here. the devs presence in this thread is for the purpose of this feedback only and not to answer any other questions. posters who do not adhere to this will find their posts moved. please be constructive in your conveyance of your feedback. thank you.
do not reply to this moderation note. send us a PM if you'd like to discuss it.
After a bunch of PvP matches with 738 Tenacity. (4/4 skulkers) (2/2 fomorian) (pvorp/pfey)
There were a things noticeable diffrent, my damage output was a lot lower than it used to be, at least halfed, on every class. (besides HR havent been able to fight one on preview)
I would see damage resistance is the cause of this, i have only 2 artifacts on this picture as you can see;
but i have 927 defense and 22% damage resistance.
Now in pvp this is +18% damage resistance. 22%+18% = 40% damage resistance, pretty much taking half of the amount of damage inflicted, this does ofcourse not take account for the arp and crit and cc resistance.
After fighting a CW it took me twice as long as normally to take one down, simply because i was hitting low, the reason of this is cause theres the arp resistance and as you can see on the picture its quite low 1500 ish. I was getting less crits in as well, this goes the same for GWF, DC, GF, TR.
I was not able to kill a GWF, or get her below 50% hitpoints, the regen was ticking for more than i was hitting and the last life steal dread boon was healing her for too much.
The arp resistance is something worrying, since this is forcing people to stack more arp to actually pierce their opponents defense, needing to sacrifice other stats, such as power, crit strike.
This crit resistance is making focusing on crit a bad move as well, making fomorians for TR's not worth using in pvp for the 2/2 450 crit bonus.
Control resistance, this isnt a bad idea, but it is currently, as CW's, GF's, GWF's, HR's highly rely on prone/stuns/control etc. this would only benefit TR's, GF's, GWF's when it should only benefit GF's since you dont look forward pvping getting controlled the entire time before landing a single hit, and when they do, you can just dodge and wait for the cooldowns and rotate again.
The Tenacity idea is good, but it shouldnt effect ONLY pvp armors, this will limit the amount of armors people can actually use cause they will be forced to use these pvp armors or else they wont be able to survive. The Tenacity stat should be added to all T2 epic armor, head,arms,feet,torso.
It wouldv been nice to see more items come in the pvp shop, which would have tenacity, since the current pvp shops have no use after you bought everything for collections, artifacts, companions. (besides refining for rough AD)
The same case for gauntlgrym, i had about 4000 coins there and i spent them all on chests for refining.
It would be more logic if there would be more versatile armors, not just 1 set in the trade of blades and 1 set in gauntlgrym, but multiple, with diffrent stats on them so the choices for gear wouldnt be too limited.
The healing depression wouldv been a great idea, but since the DC's already got their heals nerfed this is a bad idea, DC's would be easily replaced by another class.
The fact that this will effect artifacts and armor enchants doesnt make any sense, these should be not effected.
ITC damage immunity works, but you still get knocked down/proned/controlled
The DF immunity does not work.
To preface, I’ve been an avid DC player since early beta. I have created and geared two DCs (one for PvE and one for PvP) with entirely different builds. I’ve had a lot of fun with the DC, particularly in PvP.
When new PvP changes were announced, I went to the preview shard to explore them. I was incredibly disappointed for two main reasons:
1. With the introduction of tenacity, the GG PvP set becomes a must-have. Unfortunately for DCs, switching to this set means sacrificing important stats (e.g., crit, regen, and deflection) for less useful stats (e.g., recovery and lifesteal). I have no idea why you would give life steal to the class with the lowest damage output. It is an utter waste of a stat, especially if it is affected by the PvP healing debuff. A new PvP DC set should be introduced.
2. The incoming healing debuff affects the role of DCs in PvP in a significant way. Not many people play PvP DCs for the main reason that killing other players is fun, and DCs cannot do that as effectively as any other class. People who play PvP DCs often find enjoyment in supporting other classes by –as might be expected of a DC – healing (among some other things). With the reduction in incoming healing, standard PvP DC skills such as Healing Word become largely unhelpful. I typically use Astral Shield, Sun Burst, and Healing Word in PvP. I will have to swap out Healing Word for something more useful. I could start using Exaltation more regularly; however, with Sun Burst, this means I will be divinity starved more often than not. In turn, this means I will be spending more time left-clicking on opponents to build divinity while my skills are off cool down so that I can use them most effectively (not the most fun or dynamic way of playing a DC). In addition, chains are easily dodged if not used in divine mode, do little damage, and with the increased CC resistance players have, hold them for a negligible amount of time.
With these changes, as a DC, in addition to not being able to kill very effectively, I won’t be able to heal very effectively either, especially when players most need it (and being able to heal other players when they most require it is one of a DCs most important roles). Under those circumstances, I can’t see PvP DCs being particularly fun to play anymore.
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xxxmasterxx1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 2Arc User
edited January 2014
tr nerf ever harmed in the tr ja has no defense now gf can pronate when he's impossible to catch on. discourages this very play tr.
Heads up all, we have identified an issue where Soulforged and Regeneration were not being depressed correctly. I have fixed this internally and we will get a new build out as soon as we can with this fix.
CORRECTION: Just regeneration. Soulforged is indeed working correctly on the build on Preview!
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lazaroth666Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,332Arc User
edited January 2014
First, thank you for showing us that you are really working in the PvP part of the game.
Based on my tests:
Feedback:
Tenacity: IMHO, Tenacity should be a value based directly on the Gear Score meaning that a character who have worked a lot on his toon will have a higher value in comparison with others. In this way, the players will be much more motivated trying to get high lvl enchants, equipment and will be able to use any gear because those pvp items are very restrictive. There would be a good synergy between enchants and tenacity since the higher your enchants, higher your tenacity.
Healing Depression: This is just terrible for a DC. Every class have his own advantage or disadvantage, a DC can heal himself but does not have burst damage like the others so what is a DC now? even lower DPS, lower heals and no burst. What else can I do? Going around using Divine Glow? Maybe but I would prefer to play a CW.
I have been on the PTR and testing things out, I would like to give this feedback:
1) I like the idea of below applying in PVP:
Give all players some additional Innate resistances against effects from players
10% Reduced Critical Strike Damage
10% Increased CC Resist
10% Increased Damage Resistance
2) Below is what worries me. It creates MUCH less gear choices.
Addition of Tenacity to PVP Gear, which gives the following bonuses
Resistance to Critical Hits
Armor Penetration Suppression
Damage Resistance
CC Resist
What I would do is:
- Add SOME level of Tenacity to ALL gear sets. PVE sets can have much less, but should still have SOME to enable more choices.
- Add atleast 1 more T1 AND T2 pvp set for more gear choices.
- Remove the DR on this (adding less crit damage AND ARP surpession IS adding DR)
3) This is what worries me the most, THis is going to REALLY hurt the DC population and I dont think these things really do what you would like for PVP. I think the idea is that regen builds are too strong with all this DR?
Addition of Healing Depression
When struck by a player in PVP you will suffer Healing Depression for 10 seconds. This effect Reduces the effectiveness of incoming heals and Temporary Hit Points by 50%. This effect is refreshed by taking damage from a player.
This healing depression will affect all sources of healing, including but not limited to Regeneration, Life Steal, Soulforged, and Class Powers. Potions are currently not affected by this, but will need further balancing with these changes.
What you should do is just reduce the effects of regen in PVP maps only. This wont hurt PVE and well accomplish the same for PVP without such a drastic nerf to all classes.... In a sense all "Self Heals" that are passive should be toned down. But getting healed by other players shouldnt....
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited January 2014
Hello dear Devs !!
I run now 20 match and this is my exp ....
*-40 % dmg for Crit armor pen build
* Zero Tenacity score for any T2 or higher armor setts the only one what get the full bonus is the t2 PVP gear sett.
* Nobody have immunity no matter if y use unstoppable or ITC or just try to shift any one can prone you.
* DC = DEAD DUMMY (no use for pvp on sigth leave pt or your party is doomed )
* GWF Sentinel regen build DEAD DUMMY too low dmg no survive coz any one can chain loc it.
* GWF Destro : mybe y can kill 1 ppl in 1 match
* TR executioner DEAD DUMMY
* TR perma hide Immortal killer
* HR if somone near you run or you are a DEAD DUMMY too.
* CW Brutal Glass Cannon can kill full team if no one watch him. If somone is close to him DEAD DUMMY too.
* The only Class how are realy immune to CC THE SECOND KING OF PVP .
I respecced on the preview server to a full damage TR 21 str 21 dex (can get 26 str) and all of my feats in damage focused ones, the max i hit on a GWF with 6/6 GG set was and 8.8k lashing blade WITH lurkers assault and perfect vorpal.
This is not the way it should be, this way a trickster rogue cannot kill anything and can only get killed.
I was not able to hit a 10k lashing blade on a CW with 6/6 GG set, when he took it of this was my max hit i got on him (with lurkers)
[16:59] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Lashing Blade deals 21814 (30434) Physical to Persephone 1.
As you can see this is forcing trickster rogues to use the same builds as in the beta, which is full dps, burst damage, other builds, such as perma/senti TR's have no effect anymore.
DF immunity does not work.
ITC immunity still doesnt work.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2014
Feedback: Tenacity
First and foremost: What is the PURPOSE of these changes? What is the GOAL that developers try to achieve?
Please enlighten us dear devs, so we can understand what you think is wrong in PvP and what are your intentions - it will improve our feedback's quality a lot.
Background: Full CW GG set 990 Tenacity or so, p/vorpal/SF etc. 6-7 matches played, 10-15 duels.
- Tenacity amount needs to be personalized depending on class; you don't give already tanky GWF same amount of Tenacity as squishy CW
- DC changes are unwarranted; this class is the least OP overall and has a very limited and unique role.
- Tenacity as of now is an overall, indiscriminate Damage Reduction. This is not good. Tenacity should be a mechanic to protect certain classes from crit/huge damage spikes. As of now it protects everyone, even those that are already protected. 4K Lashing Blades vs GWF? 2K Impact Shots? How can that be something good... damage spikes are needed to take down tanks. They don't need further protection.
- only 2 sets of Tenacity gear - big concern; you will remove build customization through gear
- expensive items such as Perfect Vorpal and Soulforge are made next to useless; people spent a lot of money or time to get them; make sure that you find a solution to keep these as viable as before
- squishy classes just as squishy against tanks (CW vs GWF for example); it just takes more time for the tank to kill you
- in a 5 vs 5 domination scenario, Tenacity will increase the match duration by a lot; we already have 30-40 mins games; this is just not good
Biggest Concerns:
- the need for an additional set of gear, enchants
Are we supposed to farm/buy another set of enchants? Or are we supposed to spend 12.5 Gold or so each time we want to PvP, then again 12.5 Gold when we get back to PvE?
- we still miss a Dual Spec
We need Dual Spec more than ever; building more chars to BiS is very unrealistic to the vast majority of the population; we need to be able to have 2 specs, so one can play at 100% efficiency in both PvP and PvE. Modern MMOs have dual spec, please understand it is very needed.
- Still no ladder/matchmaking
If you wanted to protect newbies from geared PvPers, this should have been the path to take.
THese are really valid points and from my experience testing the changes on the PTR the DEVs would be VERY wise to take this into consideration. I have posted my comments INSIDE the quote in RED.
Feedback: Tenacity
First and foremost: What is the PURPOSE of these changes? What is the GOAL that developers try to achieve?
I feel they tried to reduce some of the squishy in PVP, make everyone more durable (obviously) I dont think its a BAD route to go honestly, but I think the changes need to be tweaked.
Please enlighten us dear devs, so we can understand what you think is wrong in PvP and what are your intentions - it will improve our feedback's quality a lot.
Background: Full CW GG set 990 Tenacity or so, p/vorpal/SF etc. 6-7 matches played, 10-15 duels.
- Tenacity amount needs to be personalized depending on class; you don't give already tanky GWF same amount of Tenacity as squishy CW
I dont know how they would do this to be honest. The only thing is maybe make Tenacity do different things for each class...?
- DC changes are unwarranted; this class is the least OP overall and has a very limited and unique role. 100% agree. DCs are already rare and now your punishing them even further. Mod 2 brought them SOME balance and it seems they are taking that away with the healing nerfs...
- Tenacity as of now is an overall, indiscriminate Damage Reduction. This is not good. Tenacity should be a mechanic to protect certain classes from crit/huge damage spikes. As of now it protects everyone, even those that are already protected. 4K Lashing Blades vs GWF? 2K Impact Shots? How can that be something good... damage spikes are needed to take down tanks. They don't need further protection.
I really like the fact they gave everyone regardless of tenacity PVP DR, less crit dmg and CC resist. Kudos there. BUt tenacity adds MORE of that, honestly what I would RATHER have it do is things LIKE the ARP resist and maybe even a -% crit CHANCE with NO additional DR. CC resist is fine too. So it would look like:
Addition of Tenacity to PVP Gear, which gives the following bonuses
Resistance to Critical Hits (less CHANCE someone will crit you again multiplicative)
Armor Penetration Suppression (not an additive but multiplicative ARP resist)
CC Resist
This still makes it very good, but all relative. if someone has 10% less crit chance against you, if they are at 50% crit it reduces it by 5% (10% of 50%) if they only have 20% crit it only reduces it by 2% (20%*10%) etc... This makes things MORE relative in regards to balance. Same with ARP. This way, classes STILL get the DR/crit DR/CC and now ALSO get -crit% -arp% and CC resist%. But adding ALL of this insane DR just is OVERKILL for alot of classes and nw it seems everyone is starving for dmg...
- only 2 sets of Tenacity gear - big concern; you will remove build customization through gear This is a MAJOR MAJOR concern of mine too. You just gave the PVP community ZERO incentive to PVE and also gave them ZERO gear choice... This is also why you NEED to add more PVP sets, and I would also think that tenacity SHOULD be added to PVE sets (although less) so for instance a T2 PVP set would have tenacity of the T1 PVP set etc.... This opens more doors but still gives incentive to get the PVP sets...
- expensive items such as Perfect Vorpal and Soulforge are made next to useless; people spent a lot of money or time to get them; make sure that you find a solution to keep these as viable as before This only is because of the nerfs to crit damage and heal... If they removed the nerf to healing on SF it would be fine, and if they did what I am suggesting above it would not hurt vorpal as much but would be I think a major balance and still make them good enchants.
- squishy classes just as squishy against tanks (CW vs GWF for example); it just takes more time for the tank to kill you
Im actually fine with this, it makes tanks deal less damage relative to damage classes like a CW. I just think they overdid it a tad...
- in a 5 vs 5 domination scenario, Tenacity will increase the match duration by a lot; we already have 30-40 mins games; this is just not good
100% agree, its already hard to to PMvsPM and now ppl wont even want to play. I have a feeling these changes are more for a FUTURE game type yet to be seen/released but given they are severely dropping damage from all classes in the form of DR I would imagine it will maybe involve more than 5 players? Just a thought.
Biggest Concerns:
- the need for an additional set of gear, enchants
Are we supposed to farm/buy another set of enchants? Or are we supposed to spend 12.5 Gold or so each time we want to PvP, then again 12.5 Gold when we get back to PvE?
- we still miss a Dual Spec
We need Dual Spec more than ever; building more chars to BiS is very unrealistic to the vast majority of the population; we need to be able to have 2 specs, so one can play at 100% efficiency in both PvP and PvE. Modern MMOs have dual spec, please understand it is very needed.
- Still no ladder/matchmaking
If you wanted to protect newbies from geared PvPers, this should have been the path to take.
Your biggest concerns I THINK may be in Mod 3 and these are preface changes prior to the Mod. If they release new gear etc itll prob be in the expansion and this is a way to iron out changes before nailing down gear sets? Just my hopes....
Thanks for trying to improve our pvp experience, but seriously this is not the way...
There are 2 main issues with pvp right now: first is imposible to kill sentinels, and the second is newbies who are killed to easily by good geared players (altough it's prety much their fault, but still).
As for GWFs I cant really see how reducing everyone damage is gonna help to deal with them. IMO you should do the same thing as you did with TRs (reduced lurker, amount of knives,...) which is nerf of powers/feats which make them op. As for newbies things gonna be even worse, since obtaining t2 pvp gear take some time, and until they get it, they will die as easily as now, but in addition they won't be able to kill anyone. I think you should put something like 2 baskets of players - One will que those under 100 matches won, and 2nd people who won at least 100 times.
I think you should try small steps first and see how it works instead of puting whole new complicated system which turn everything 180 degres. Even more when the game is out for some time and people spent a lot of time/money to make builds, which can turn usless after this...
Feedback: Gearing Tenacity should either apply as a static debuff to all players or should be based on the gear level you are wearing. It should not be only for PvP Gear.
This will push people further into needing two different gear sets for PvP and PvE.
If you want you can have innate resistances and gear resistances as you have now but all gear should have the same or negligible differences in Tenacity ratings. PvP gear currently works in PvE and PvE Gear currently works in PvP. Keep it that way.
Feedback: Class Differences
And again I can't stress enough, these changes need to be more CLASS SPECIFIC. GWF's don't need more CC Resist. GF's don't need a Crit Reduction.
Clerics most certainly don't need a healing reduction.
Each class has it's strengths and weaknesses. Putting a flat reduction doesn't solve how some of these strengths are too high or too low in regards to PvP
LOOOL I guess you play GF, I expected that on Shadowmantle pvp update's thread.
I've seen this "Tenacity" attribute in other games but with another name and it is really good just that changes need to be made in classes not usually this ends up hurting some and benefit others.
I think these changes will not change anything in PvP, who is strong will remain strong who is weak will remain weak, the good news comes for Devoted Cleric who will now die faster.
I think the Devoted Cleric are not so Devoted as it has a stupid skill that decreases in 40% the healing himself.
mod note part three: if you have not tested tenacity on the preview shard, do not post your opinions about these changes in this thread. instead, post your opinions here:
do not post angry, antagonistic, demanding and otherwise unproductive comments in either of these threads. do not bypass the language filter. if you cannot provide constructive criticism, please do not post. again, this thread is for feedback from testing the tenacity stat. please have your discussions in the aforementioned discussion thread. thank you.
do not reply to this moderation note. the discussion of moderation in the open forums is against the forum rules of conduct. instead, send us a PM if you'd like to discuss it. thanks.
A better approach (insert armchair general mode) would be to divide the benefits of the current tenacity stat & the baseline bonuses: Instead of getting these stats, that are easy to come by/given, split them, and make each a type of enchant; ultimately letting the player decide his build. By doing this, it would also solve the issue with PVE'ers wanting to use their fancy dungeon loot in PVP and it wouldn't entirely neuter current pvp specs so grossly.
This is a much better idea.
So, I figure, a GS match system would be much more appropriate than these new damage resist mechanics.
I agree. People QQ-ing are usually up against impossible GS related odds, impossible teamwork related odds, or both.
I would caution against making big changes like this. Lot's of people have put countless hours into multiple character gear and builds based on the current set of rules. Big stuff like this, potentially, tosses all that out the window. I, for one, will be rather upset if it requires re-gearing my toons (most of which don't PvP in PvP sets), or worse, requires re-rolling.
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited January 2014
Feedback: General
Why do the effects of Tenacity matter if one team never stood a chance of winning in the first place? A fresh level 60 who has never PvPd before should never, ever be matched against someone who is both greatly experienced and fully geared. Balance does not come from tweaking one class, or stat, or ability: it comes from matching evenly experienced and geared teams against each other.
Until they introduce a matchmaking system to avoid this, nothing else in PvP is really worth discussing. Yes, it is broken. Matches between new players and geared veterans will be just as lopsided as they ever have been. Until they introduce a real matchmaking system, 99/100 matches will still be over in the first minute and a half. New players will still be stunlocked, they will be unable to land a single kill against their opponents, a single geared vet will wipe the floor with an entire group of pugs. Players will cry about this or that class or enchantment being overpowered (this will always happen, actually).
Tenacity is a fine idea in and of itself, but it is not a solution to the lack of a matchmaking system.
Whether they are geared or new, players want to fight a match against opponents where both sides stand an equal chance at winning. Lopsided matches are not fun for either team, and this is why the vast majority of PvP matches on the live server quickly degrade into duels, or point cap trading, or people simply leave them or AFK. Tenacity does not even the odds between inexperienced and ill-geared new players against veterans who are fully geared (and in fact nothing will, which is why they shouldn't be matched against each other in the first place). People will still leave matches and AFK less than 300 points into the game when they realize how uneven the odds are, because without a matchmaking system, the likelihood of getting into a fun (even) match are astronomically low.
There is only one solution, and it is not Tenacity.
The changes on the test server at the moment are not even worth discussing or testing. Again, why do the effects of Tenacity matter if one team never stood a chance of winning in the first place? Because until there is a matchmaking system, this will still be the case the for the vast majority of pvp matches. Even on the test server, the Devs must have noticed in our matches against them that ALL of them were decidedly over in the first 2 minutes - which probably explains why no one has been back to test them again. These changes are not a fix for anything. It's just another stat. It's an interesting stat. But it is not a fix for anything at all.
Put Tenacity on the backburner and give us a matchmaking system. Without a matchmaking system, Tenacity won't balance anything.
Played against the devs last night. I ended up coming first in points and I went 11 and 1.
With that said, My TR is ~16.4k in pvp with full Skulker set. Note I have a perfect vorpal and the full damage dealing executioner spec.
The match lasted about 17min and my 11 kills were roughly twice as many as the next closest person. The only reason I was able to even achieve that many was because of shocking execution, otherwise I would have had 4 or 5 kills (which would have still put me near top dog for kills LOL)
Like I thought originally, players are WAY too tanky now. My only death came from trying to solo a CW and HR on a node with only 45% starting hp. Yes my defense, deflect, and hp are already stout to begin with, but then again im not even a perma TR. This was against a few characters with rank 10s, which gives me confidence that I will never die again if the changes go live. It just wasn't fun for me, TRs are assassins and enjoy doing damage. This has been taken away from all characters.
Tanky chars actually get more out of these boosts because of the large pools of hp they have. For me personally, I have 40% deflect (TRs get 75% severity) and now almost 50% DR on the test shard. That's in addition to ItC. Just too much
I don't want to be forced to play as a tank, I would have rolled GWF if that was the case. I hope they actually listen to what we want because if they cater to the casual gamer and simply try as much as they can to protect them from dieing.. they will lose many players
^ go to the CW forums and take a look at why. they are the ones to blame for this. Don't play one of the squishiest classes and then complain about dieing easily. If CWs were as powerful in pvp as they are in pve then it would be pointless to play other classes. But no, they go on the forums and make a million topics about how they die a lot and how op TRs are so the devs finally respond and release this defense boost
Personally, I don't think they don't want brackets because it splits the player base (which isn't a big deal they already do it with dungeons) and causes long que times... that's the only thing I can think of.
Its easy... over 100 wins = better bracket. over 200 wins = best bracket. under 100 wins = worst bracket
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
^ go to the CW forums and take a look at why. they are the ones to blame for this. Don't play one of the squishiest classes and then complain about dieing easily. If CWs were as powerful in pvp as they are in pve then it would be pointless to play other classes. But no, they go on the forums and make a million topics about how they die a lot and how op TRs are so the devs finally respond and release this defense boost
Personally, I don't think they don't want brackets because it splits the player base (which isn't a big deal they already do it with dungeons) and causes long que times... that's the only thing I can think of.
Its easy... over 100 wins = better bracket. over 200 wins = best bracket. under 100 wins = worst bracket
Lemme get this straight.
So an entire class is the guilty party behind the changes?
CW is THE squishiest class. Nobody, EVER asked to be as tanky as a GWF or GF.
All we (usually) ask for are things like:
- additional survival mechanics for CW in PvP
- reduction in damage for classes that are supposed to be TANKS (not what we have now, GWF best defense, best damage...)
Also your post suggests that if CWs don;t wanna die so much they should roll another class for PvP. is that a sane answer?!?
Seems so, since many top CWs abandoned their class completely in PvP. Such a thing should not happen.
ALL classes should be needed and desired in BOTH PvP and PvE.
And here we are again, I said it during testing of the new refining system for mod2 and after testing these new changes for pvp I'll say it again. Instead of fixing the flat tire cryptic tries to rebuild the whole car.
I'll never understand why the devs don't use Ockham's razor when trying to fix issues in the game. If players are complaining about pugs vs premades then the most obvious thing to do is make it so this doesn't happen anymore. Giving pugs the same extra stat as the premades will not make a player want to stay longer just because they might die a little bit slower.
Does this mean we basically have to get the GG PvP set, otherwise we are at a disadvantage in PvP? Isn't this taking away from a lot of build diversity, forcing everyone to basically wear the same armor sets since they will ultimately be the best in PvP?
Pretty much
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited January 2014
Feedback :
*LVL 10-40 pvp ultra booring after 60 min match i quit
*LvL 60 DC 16k GS all perfect enchant look like Purple companion in PVP.
Comments
The only downside is that we do not have much variety in PvP gear. Cool thing is the difference between Glory PvP gear and Gauntlgrym PvP gear.
There seem to be issues with the Block of the Guardian Fighters, but have to look further into this.
Unfortunately this isn't quite how your control resistance works yet. We will be doing an Audit of sources of CC resist to make sure those numbers all make sense, but those numbers will likely change once everything is affected in a way that makes sense. Additionally Prones might not be respecting CC resist and strength properly, which is where those resistance will be noticed most heavily.
EDIT: Reminder, guys this thread is for feedback after playing with tenacity. If you want to have a discussion on the merits of a PVP stat existing or the class balance without having actually tried it, please open a different thread. This thread is so we can make much more targeted and effective changes to make this a better feature, and posts that don't contribute to that cause can actively make it more difficult to get real feedback that would improve PVP. We are trying to make PVP more fun for everyone, so please play the changes and see how they work in practice.
on the rest I agree, maybe this will be enough to stop the nerfs on pve classes and equipment.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Thanks a lot for the reply, I really appreciate it.
I'll keep your suggestion in mind for the future.
You want to make pvp less bursty, maybe convince ppl to get defensive items instead of having ~900 def 20k hp and crying they got 1shotted".
Pretty much add this system and Neverwinter online will become PVE only.
Tenacity should either apply as a static debuff to all players or should be based on the gear level you are wearing. It should not be only for PvP Gear.
This will push people further into needing two different gear sets for PvP and PvE.
If you want you can have innate resistances and gear resistances as you have now but all gear should have the same or negligible differences in Tenacity ratings. PvP gear currently works in PvE and PvE Gear currently works in PvP. Keep it that way.
Feedback: Class Differences
And again I can't stress enough, these changes need to be more CLASS SPECIFIC.
GWF's don't need more CC Resist.
GF's don't need a Crit Reduction.
Clerics most certainly don't need a healing reduction.
Each class has it's strengths and weaknesses. Putting a flat reduction doesn't solve how some of these strengths are too high or too low in regards to PvP
do not reply to this moderation note. send us a PM if you'd like to discuss it.
Trickster Rogue
After a bunch of PvP matches with 738 Tenacity. (4/4 skulkers) (2/2 fomorian) (pvorp/pfey)
There were a things noticeable diffrent, my damage output was a lot lower than it used to be, at least halfed, on every class. (besides HR havent been able to fight one on preview)
I would see damage resistance is the cause of this, i have only 2 artifacts on this picture as you can see;
but i have 927 defense and 22% damage resistance.
Now in pvp this is +18% damage resistance. 22%+18% = 40% damage resistance, pretty much taking half of the amount of damage inflicted, this does ofcourse not take account for the arp and crit and cc resistance.
After fighting a CW it took me twice as long as normally to take one down, simply because i was hitting low, the reason of this is cause theres the arp resistance and as you can see on the picture its quite low 1500 ish. I was getting less crits in as well, this goes the same for GWF, DC, GF, TR.
I was not able to kill a GWF, or get her below 50% hitpoints, the regen was ticking for more than i was hitting and the last life steal dread boon was healing her for too much.
The arp resistance is something worrying, since this is forcing people to stack more arp to actually pierce their opponents defense, needing to sacrifice other stats, such as power, crit strike.
This crit resistance is making focusing on crit a bad move as well, making fomorians for TR's not worth using in pvp for the 2/2 450 crit bonus.
Control resistance, this isnt a bad idea, but it is currently, as CW's, GF's, GWF's, HR's highly rely on prone/stuns/control etc. this would only benefit TR's, GF's, GWF's when it should only benefit GF's since you dont look forward pvping getting controlled the entire time before landing a single hit, and when they do, you can just dodge and wait for the cooldowns and rotate again.
The Tenacity idea is good, but it shouldnt effect ONLY pvp armors, this will limit the amount of armors people can actually use cause they will be forced to use these pvp armors or else they wont be able to survive. The Tenacity stat should be added to all T2 epic armor, head,arms,feet,torso.
It wouldv been nice to see more items come in the pvp shop, which would have tenacity, since the current pvp shops have no use after you bought everything for collections, artifacts, companions. (besides refining for rough AD)
The same case for gauntlgrym, i had about 4000 coins there and i spent them all on chests for refining.
It would be more logic if there would be more versatile armors, not just 1 set in the trade of blades and 1 set in gauntlgrym, but multiple, with diffrent stats on them so the choices for gear wouldnt be too limited.
The healing depression wouldv been a great idea, but since the DC's already got their heals nerfed this is a bad idea, DC's would be easily replaced by another class.
The fact that this will effect artifacts and armor enchants doesnt make any sense, these should be not effected.
ITC damage immunity works, but you still get knocked down/proned/controlled
The DF immunity does not work.
When new PvP changes were announced, I went to the preview shard to explore them. I was incredibly disappointed for two main reasons:
1. With the introduction of tenacity, the GG PvP set becomes a must-have. Unfortunately for DCs, switching to this set means sacrificing important stats (e.g., crit, regen, and deflection) for less useful stats (e.g., recovery and lifesteal). I have no idea why you would give life steal to the class with the lowest damage output. It is an utter waste of a stat, especially if it is affected by the PvP healing debuff. A new PvP DC set should be introduced.
2. The incoming healing debuff affects the role of DCs in PvP in a significant way. Not many people play PvP DCs for the main reason that killing other players is fun, and DCs cannot do that as effectively as any other class. People who play PvP DCs often find enjoyment in supporting other classes by –as might be expected of a DC – healing (among some other things). With the reduction in incoming healing, standard PvP DC skills such as Healing Word become largely unhelpful. I typically use Astral Shield, Sun Burst, and Healing Word in PvP. I will have to swap out Healing Word for something more useful. I could start using Exaltation more regularly; however, with Sun Burst, this means I will be divinity starved more often than not. In turn, this means I will be spending more time left-clicking on opponents to build divinity while my skills are off cool down so that I can use them most effectively (not the most fun or dynamic way of playing a DC). In addition, chains are easily dodged if not used in divine mode, do little damage, and with the increased CC resistance players have, hold them for a negligible amount of time.
With these changes, as a DC, in addition to not being able to kill very effectively, I won’t be able to heal very effectively either, especially when players most need it (and being able to heal other players when they most require it is one of a DCs most important roles). Under those circumstances, I can’t see PvP DCs being particularly fun to play anymore.
CORRECTION: Just regeneration. Soulforged is indeed working correctly on the build on Preview!
Based on my tests:
Feedback:
1) I like the idea of below applying in PVP:
Give all players some additional Innate resistances against effects from players
2) Below is what worries me. It creates MUCH less gear choices.
Addition of Tenacity to PVP Gear, which gives the following bonuses
What I would do is:
- Add SOME level of Tenacity to ALL gear sets. PVE sets can have much less, but should still have SOME to enable more choices.
- Add atleast 1 more T1 AND T2 pvp set for more gear choices.
- Remove the DR on this (adding less crit damage AND ARP surpession IS adding DR)
3) This is what worries me the most, THis is going to REALLY hurt the DC population and I dont think these things really do what you would like for PVP. I think the idea is that regen builds are too strong with all this DR?
Addition of Healing Depression
What you should do is just reduce the effects of regen in PVP maps only. This wont hurt PVE and well accomplish the same for PVP without such a drastic nerf to all classes.... In a sense all "Self Heals" that are passive should be toned down. But getting healed by other players shouldnt....
I run now 20 match and this is my exp ....
*-40 % dmg for Crit armor pen build
* Zero Tenacity score for any T2 or higher armor setts the only one what get the full bonus is the t2 PVP gear sett.
* Nobody have immunity no matter if y use unstoppable or ITC or just try to shift any one can prone you.
* DC = DEAD DUMMY (no use for pvp on sigth leave pt or your party is doomed )
* GWF Sentinel regen build DEAD DUMMY too low dmg no survive coz any one can chain loc it.
* GWF Destro : mybe y can kill 1 ppl in 1 match
* TR executioner DEAD DUMMY
* TR perma hide Immortal killer
* HR if somone near you run or you are a DEAD DUMMY too.
* CW Brutal Glass Cannon can kill full team if no one watch him. If somone is close to him DEAD DUMMY too.
* The only Class how are realy immune to CC THE SECOND KING OF PVP .
I respecced on the preview server to a full damage TR 21 str 21 dex (can get 26 str) and all of my feats in damage focused ones, the max i hit on a GWF with 6/6 GG set was and 8.8k lashing blade WITH lurkers assault and perfect vorpal.
This is not the way it should be, this way a trickster rogue cannot kill anything and can only get killed.
I was not able to hit a 10k lashing blade on a CW with 6/6 GG set, when he took it of this was my max hit i got on him (with lurkers)
[16:59] [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Lashing Blade deals 21814 (30434) Physical to Persephone 1.
As you can see this is forcing trickster rogues to use the same builds as in the beta, which is full dps, burst damage, other builds, such as perma/senti TR's have no effect anymore.
DF immunity does not work.
ITC immunity still doesnt work.
First and foremost: What is the PURPOSE of these changes? What is the GOAL that developers try to achieve?
Please enlighten us dear devs, so we can understand what you think is wrong in PvP and what are your intentions - it will improve our feedback's quality a lot.
Background: Full CW GG set 990 Tenacity or so, p/vorpal/SF etc. 6-7 matches played, 10-15 duels.
- Tenacity amount needs to be personalized depending on class; you don't give already tanky GWF same amount of Tenacity as squishy CW
- DC changes are unwarranted; this class is the least OP overall and has a very limited and unique role.
- Tenacity as of now is an overall, indiscriminate Damage Reduction. This is not good. Tenacity should be a mechanic to protect certain classes from crit/huge damage spikes. As of now it protects everyone, even those that are already protected. 4K Lashing Blades vs GWF? 2K Impact Shots? How can that be something good... damage spikes are needed to take down tanks. They don't need further protection.
- only 2 sets of Tenacity gear - big concern; you will remove build customization through gear
- expensive items such as Perfect Vorpal and Soulforge are made next to useless; people spent a lot of money or time to get them; make sure that you find a solution to keep these as viable as before
- squishy classes just as squishy against tanks (CW vs GWF for example); it just takes more time for the tank to kill you
- in a 5 vs 5 domination scenario, Tenacity will increase the match duration by a lot; we already have 30-40 mins games; this is just not good
Biggest Concerns:
- the need for an additional set of gear, enchants
Are we supposed to farm/buy another set of enchants? Or are we supposed to spend 12.5 Gold or so each time we want to PvP, then again 12.5 Gold when we get back to PvE?
- we still miss a Dual Spec
We need Dual Spec more than ever; building more chars to BiS is very unrealistic to the vast majority of the population; we need to be able to have 2 specs, so one can play at 100% efficiency in both PvP and PvE. Modern MMOs have dual spec, please understand it is very needed.
- Still no ladder/matchmaking
If you wanted to protect newbies from geared PvPers, this should have been the path to take.
Your biggest concerns I THINK may be in Mod 3 and these are preface changes prior to the Mod. If they release new gear etc itll prob be in the expansion and this is a way to iron out changes before nailing down gear sets? Just my hopes....
Thanks for trying to improve our pvp experience, but seriously this is not the way...
There are 2 main issues with pvp right now: first is imposible to kill sentinels, and the second is newbies who are killed to easily by good geared players (altough it's prety much their fault, but still).
As for GWFs I cant really see how reducing everyone damage is gonna help to deal with them. IMO you should do the same thing as you did with TRs (reduced lurker, amount of knives,...) which is nerf of powers/feats which make them op. As for newbies things gonna be even worse, since obtaining t2 pvp gear take some time, and until they get it, they will die as easily as now, but in addition they won't be able to kill anyone. I think you should put something like 2 baskets of players - One will que those under 100 matches won, and 2nd people who won at least 100 times.
I think you should try small steps first and see how it works instead of puting whole new complicated system which turn everything 180 degres. Even more when the game is out for some time and people spent a lot of time/money to make builds, which can turn usless after this...
LOOOL I guess you play GF, I expected that on Shadowmantle pvp update's thread.
What about other classes? What's your opinion?
I think these changes will not change anything in PvP, who is strong will remain strong who is weak will remain weak, the good news comes for Devoted Cleric who will now die faster.
I think the Devoted Cleric are not so Devoted as it has a stupid skill that decreases in 40% the healing himself.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?583241-Tenacity-Discussion-Thread
do not post angry, antagonistic, demanding and otherwise unproductive comments in either of these threads. do not bypass the language filter. if you cannot provide constructive criticism, please do not post. again, this thread is for feedback from testing the tenacity stat. please have your discussions in the aforementioned discussion thread. thank you.
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This is a much better idea.
I agree. People QQ-ing are usually up against impossible GS related odds, impossible teamwork related odds, or both.
I would caution against making big changes like this. Lot's of people have put countless hours into multiple character gear and builds based on the current set of rules. Big stuff like this, potentially, tosses all that out the window. I, for one, will be rather upset if it requires re-gearing my toons (most of which don't PvP in PvP sets), or worse, requires re-rolling.
Why do the effects of Tenacity matter if one team never stood a chance of winning in the first place? A fresh level 60 who has never PvPd before should never, ever be matched against someone who is both greatly experienced and fully geared. Balance does not come from tweaking one class, or stat, or ability: it comes from matching evenly experienced and geared teams against each other.
Until they introduce a matchmaking system to avoid this, nothing else in PvP is really worth discussing. Yes, it is broken. Matches between new players and geared veterans will be just as lopsided as they ever have been. Until they introduce a real matchmaking system, 99/100 matches will still be over in the first minute and a half. New players will still be stunlocked, they will be unable to land a single kill against their opponents, a single geared vet will wipe the floor with an entire group of pugs. Players will cry about this or that class or enchantment being overpowered (this will always happen, actually).
Tenacity is a fine idea in and of itself, but it is not a solution to the lack of a matchmaking system.
Whether they are geared or new, players want to fight a match against opponents where both sides stand an equal chance at winning. Lopsided matches are not fun for either team, and this is why the vast majority of PvP matches on the live server quickly degrade into duels, or point cap trading, or people simply leave them or AFK. Tenacity does not even the odds between inexperienced and ill-geared new players against veterans who are fully geared (and in fact nothing will, which is why they shouldn't be matched against each other in the first place). People will still leave matches and AFK less than 300 points into the game when they realize how uneven the odds are, because without a matchmaking system, the likelihood of getting into a fun (even) match are astronomically low.
There is only one solution, and it is not Tenacity.
The changes on the test server at the moment are not even worth discussing or testing. Again, why do the effects of Tenacity matter if one team never stood a chance of winning in the first place? Because until there is a matchmaking system, this will still be the case the for the vast majority of pvp matches. Even on the test server, the Devs must have noticed in our matches against them that ALL of them were decidedly over in the first 2 minutes - which probably explains why no one has been back to test them again. These changes are not a fix for anything. It's just another stat. It's an interesting stat. But it is not a fix for anything at all.
Put Tenacity on the backburner and give us a matchmaking system. Without a matchmaking system, Tenacity won't balance anything.
With that said, My TR is ~16.4k in pvp with full Skulker set. Note I have a perfect vorpal and the full damage dealing executioner spec.
The match lasted about 17min and my 11 kills were roughly twice as many as the next closest person. The only reason I was able to even achieve that many was because of shocking execution, otherwise I would have had 4 or 5 kills (which would have still put me near top dog for kills LOL)
Like I thought originally, players are WAY too tanky now. My only death came from trying to solo a CW and HR on a node with only 45% starting hp. Yes my defense, deflect, and hp are already stout to begin with, but then again im not even a perma TR. This was against a few characters with rank 10s, which gives me confidence that I will never die again if the changes go live. It just wasn't fun for me, TRs are assassins and enjoy doing damage. This has been taken away from all characters.
Tanky chars actually get more out of these boosts because of the large pools of hp they have. For me personally, I have 40% deflect (TRs get 75% severity) and now almost 50% DR on the test shard. That's in addition to ItC. Just too much
I don't want to be forced to play as a tank, I would have rolled GWF if that was the case. I hope they actually listen to what we want because if they cater to the casual gamer and simply try as much as they can to protect them from dieing.. they will lose many players
Personally, I don't think they don't want brackets because it splits the player base (which isn't a big deal they already do it with dungeons) and causes long que times... that's the only thing I can think of.
Its easy... over 100 wins = better bracket. over 200 wins = best bracket. under 100 wins = worst bracket
Lemme get this straight.
So an entire class is the guilty party behind the changes?
CW is THE squishiest class. Nobody, EVER asked to be as tanky as a GWF or GF.
All we (usually) ask for are things like:
- additional survival mechanics for CW in PvP
- reduction in damage for classes that are supposed to be TANKS (not what we have now, GWF best defense, best damage...)
Also your post suggests that if CWs don;t wanna die so much they should roll another class for PvP. is that a sane answer?!?
Seems so, since many top CWs abandoned their class completely in PvP. Such a thing should not happen.
ALL classes should be needed and desired in BOTH PvP and PvE.
I'll never understand why the devs don't use Ockham's razor when trying to fix issues in the game. If players are complaining about pugs vs premades then the most obvious thing to do is make it so this doesn't happen anymore. Giving pugs the same extra stat as the premades will not make a player want to stay longer just because they might die a little bit slower.
Pretty much
*LVL 10-40 pvp ultra booring after 60 min match i quit
*LvL 60 DC 16k GS all perfect enchant look like Purple companion in PVP.