On the test-server with full GG tenacity set as CW (10s and perfects), Im not doing any damage anymore.
That's a bit of an exaggeration. With R8-9s, P/vorpal, GGset, GGweps, 2 def/deflect rings, I still hit big shards, Ice Knife 10K on fully geared PvP TR for example, more on CWs, less on GWFs etc.
Is it significantly lower than live? Sure... but you can still kill people. It just takes longer.
Is it too much of a damage reduction? Yes, for Domination.
For Deathmatch this Tenacity stat would be IDEAL. I am willing to bet Deathmatch modes are in plans.
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I would like to Challenge the Devs to a Premade PvP match. Maybe then they will gain a basic understanding of how PvP actually works at end game instead of listening to 8k GS pugs who only pvp for dailies.
Considering they rarely (if ever?) test whether content works or not, I'm praying to God they're listening. It is truly 11 pages of "Don't do this!" I can see this content severely damaging the NW PVP community and other casual players.
Personally I like all of these pvp update ideas. From how it reads it should help balance out things in pvp. However, the second largest issue aside from the new GWF update not being balanced are immunity TR builds which are only getting buffed now that tanks wont be able to out-heal the lower damage immunity based builds and TRs will gain that extra survivability/damage resistance. Heck, TRs are even able to stay in stealth long enough to make the healing debuff go away while still poking away at the targets HP. The only two truly game breaking builds for pvp are the regen tank gwf and the permastealth/permaimmune rogue. I'm glad they are addressing the GWF but its really time the TR gets addressed. It's simply been too long...
That's a bit of an exaggeration. With R8-9s, P/vorpal, GGset, GGweps, 2 def/deflect rings, I still hit big shards, Ice Knife 10K on fully geared PvP TR for example, more on CWs, less on GWFs etc.
Is it significantly lower than live? Sure... but you can still kill people. It just takes longer.
Is it too much of a damage reduction? Yes, for Domination.
For Deathmatch this Tenacity stat would be IDEAL. I am willing to bet Deathmatch modes are in plans.
Did u try against others with full Tenacity stat?
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
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degraafinationMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Personally I like all of these pvp update ideas. From how it reads it should help balance out things in pvp. However, the second largest issue aside from the new GWF update not being balanced are immunity TR builds which are only getting buffed now that tanks wont be able to out-heal the lower damage immunity based builds and TRs will gain that extra survivability/damage resistance. Heck, TRs are even able to stay in stealth long enough to make the healing debuff go away while still poking away at the targets HP. The only two truly game breaking builds for pvp are the regen tank gwf and the permastealth/permaimmune rogue. I'm glad they are addressing the GWF but its really time the TR gets addressed. It's simply been too long...
If a CW with Perfects and Rank 10s can do next to no damage, how will the pugs fair against players who've stacked Defense, Deflect, and Regen?
ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited January 2014
The tenacity changes will only result in groups that never stood a chance of winning in the first place losing more slowly. There's no point in implementing this before Matchmaking. There's no point in implementing any pvp changes before matchmaking.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yeah my example of 10K Ice Knife (crit) is against full Tenacity TR, but it was in first Tenacity patch. Have no idea if they further nerfed our damage in the 2nd patch lol, but I'll go to test a bit later and try to find a match and return with some results, I'll run ACT so everybody can see real numbers.
If a CW with Perfects and Rank 10s can do next to no damage, how will the pugs fair against players who've stacked Defense, Deflect, and Regen?
Trace makes a pretty decent point here, there will still be a big gap between the haves and have nots, an under geared pug vs someone with full set pvp and high enchants will fare the same as they do now, resulting in the same complaining as we get now, so how is this gonna be any different
Yeah my example of 10K Ice Knife (crit) is against full Tenacity TR.
omg a 10k ice knife jesus a tank specced GWF or GF would just shrug that off and hit a potion since according to the notes arent effected by suppression so 8k heal 4 sec later and that 10k IK crit means jack. this is the worst idea ever a revamp of the match making system is all that is needed not this horse manure
they may as well remove this stat altogether with the heal debuff it's a complete waste
Yup, just got back from another round of testing (GWF this time), sad experience..
Tenacity beats defence for PvP, but if you want to fix the PvP experience for everybody...
Then the recent changes have to go away in favour for ranked pvp, and one premade queue + one "solo player only" queue.
When it was mentioned a pvp update. I was hoping more for something more around the lines of what we've been asking for since I dont know..
April/May last year. (actually earlier, just giving a time where it was more reasonable to ask for more)
All we wanted was proper matchmaking, more maps, more types of pvp.
Wasnt that difficult, bam, slam, Wrap it up. Bam! All in a patch. Everyone wins.
There was nothing wrong with the current pvp system EXCEPT the way it matches people up. As I've been saying since april. Pvp is fine from 1-59. Where 60 is a mess simply because of the way it matches people. There needs to be sub divisions for level 60 because of the wide range of gear.
Thats all.
Yeah CC can be a pain in the *** at times. But thats only when you're dealing with a someone significiantly stronger than you anyway. And theres ways to build a character to get higher CC resist. But to core system is fine the way it is.
So much for unique playstyle/builds that characters are supposed to have, that is supposed to be encouraged, especially giving this is supposed to be a dungeons and dragons game. Its cookie cutter builds and gear time now..
Even through all this discussion, I bet they going to shove this down anyway. Even if its a watered down version. I bet they going to throw this in anyway. ugh.
I would like to Challenge the Devs to a Premade PvP match. Maybe then they will gain a basic understanding of how PvP actually works at end game instead of listening to 8k GS pugs who only pvp for dailies.
This is a PRODUCTIVE post. I honestly think the Devs Playing with some of the top end PvPers would help alot.
Please allow the Devs to see this post.
Thanks.
If you delete this post again, please would you PM me with WHY you did so? I don't understand why things like this are being censored.
You can delete this bottom part because technically it is discussing moderation, thats fine, just don't remove the whole thing, and please have the common decency to PM me and explain why you feel my opinion as someone who spends ALOT of money on this game should not be seen.
^^ I played against a full team of devs the other day on the test shard and there was a bunch of chat over zone. They are actually pretty good believe it or not. With that said, I think I made the point well that the defense buff is too much. There were times were I was being focus targeted by 3 ppl and I would eat the damage and not die. Other times it was 4 players so I would leave and then come back to contest the node. Make a note that these players had enchanced gear. 99% + of players don't use all r10s. So the damage coming at me was much higher than what I should expect if this goes live.
The character I use on test has the same gear as on live.
30.2k HP
~29% DR
40% Deflect
This is before the factoring in the new buffs. I think the point was made well that they went overboard. All these stats combined with ItC means I will pretty much never die unless I get hit with shocking.
Now just imagine a GWF, DC, GF, or Perma who focuses on defense as much as I do. You will literally have one hour matches where the high kill mark is 5 kills...
Obviously Calous the Moderators of this forum and the Developers are on Opposite trains of thought...
Dev's post asking for feedback.
Mod's delete the feedback...
*smh*
Here is my Feedback btw.
Do not push this live. not one Iota of it...
Everything about these changes are VERY BAD. PvP will becomes absolutely unplayable.
Remember how you almost chopped up the rogue class with your "stealth nerf"..
Now you want to do that to EVERY CLASS...
I do not know who thought up this idea... But instead of listening to them..Listen to those of us who play PvP at the highest level possible who have been posting all over these threads the past week.
This is not the way to fix PvP.
Many people have given great ideas on What is needed to fix PvP for the 8k Gear Score person and the 18k GS person...
1. A Separate Queue system based off ONE of these factors.
Gear Score
PvP " Level" gain PvP experience the more you Win PvP. Eventually the 24/7 PvP'ers will weed themselves away from the daily AD players.
Ranking System
PvP points system
2. More maps Or tie into foundry, allow Foundry to regain it's usefulness. Most people just hum dum through them for daily AD and then others just use it to (E**loit)
3. Different PvP modes.... Capture the Flag, Deathmatch, Last Man Standing, etc
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
I would play the devil's advocate here, and actually support Tenacity -- but on one specific condition, and one condition only.
Currently, it adds TOO MANY BENEFITS for a single stat. Way too many. Even the infamous "Resilience" stat for WoW, only concentrated itself on one factor only.
PvP is obviously a very complex dynamic and there's no way only a few weeks of testing can ever predict anything correctly. So, I would support Tenacity on one condition, and that is:
Reduce the number of beneficial stats Tenacity provides, and start with only one, or maybe two factors. If it is the developer's absolute contention that all the beneficial factors are needed, then at least try implementing it to Tenacity one by one, slowly, take plenty of time to experiment and gain feedback.
IMO, if it was up to my liberty I would start by making Tenacity basically a "resilience" stat that adds a bit of more HP boost to the player, and gives a bit of a protection against critical severity. Test it out with that first and see if it more or less reduces the severity of damage spikes in a game. I would test that out for at least a full month before adding in another factor to Tenacity.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I find the addition of Tenacity confusing. The problem with PvP atm is, besides the extremely inappropriate matches (if you did a survey most people will probably reply that PUGS usually end up as either a staggering defeat or a complete route), that people can use a combination of regen, class abilities from specific classes (life gain/mitigation, unstoppable, stealth, a few other specific powers) and items (soulforged/artifacts) to make them very, very difficult to kill.
Healing depression addresses two factors (besides gimping DCs) while Tenacity actually complements class abilities (especially the GWF's - it actually helps them more because their class abilities overall were already strongest to begin with). Talk about mixed messages.
Why not change Tenacity so it affects each class differently? That way it's possible to tweak PvP balance without affecting everyone else (resulting in a need to re-balance everything all over again). And at least it can be explained in lore-terms as extra class-specific training from Neverwinter's colleges or something. It would make sense that it's class specific, we already have class-specific quests in place.
You there. New to the game? Feeling overwhelmed? Maybe you think getting to end-game is impossible for a casual player like yourself, or maybe you just need to be around a community that helps each other stay sane and competitive with the latest news, current trends, random chitchat and most of all LEGIT (that is, we try to keep things fair) gameplay. If you don't mind being around quirky people and the rare occasional drama (one of our prominent TR members is apparently a mafia godfather) join nw_legit_community at http://www.nwlegitcommunity.shivtr.com/forum_threads/2330542.
Two problems with PvP. The first is connected to the second.
1st) No matchmaking system and no ranking system.
2nd)Premades with uber gear terrorising pick-up-groups.
If they fix the first, the second won't even exist. The problem is not in combat, one-shotting is as good as 3-shotting people. I mean in EVERY MMO that was geared based, if you entered a pvp with happy-greens you'd be decimated by anyone with much higher gear. It may not have been a one shot, but it was close to 4 seconds of survivability.
I am in full agreement with your saying that the current battle system and damage outputs ARE FINE. The thing is that they need to uncouple tankiness and damage. You can't survive for ever and also be a wrecking ball, and you can't be a wrecking ball while being immortal. It's just not right.
Repeating myself for the hundredth time: JUST fix different queues for random groups and premade teams.
* Notorious Dwarven Bear Cavalry Leader *
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lvl99looterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 682Arc User
Two problems with PvP. The first is connected to the second.
1st) No matchmaking system and no ranking system.
2nd)Premades with uber gear terrorising pick-up-groups.
If they fix the first, the second won't even exist. The problem is not in combat, one-shotting is as good as 3-shotting people. I mean in EVERY MMO that was geared based, if you entered a pvp with happy-greens you'd be decimated by anyone with much higher gear. It may not have been a one shot, but it was close to 4 seconds of survivability.
I am in full agreement with your saying that the current battle system and damage outputs ARE FINE. The thing is that they need to uncouple tankiness and damage. You can't survive for ever and also be a wrecking ball, and you can't be a wrecking ball while being immortal. It's just not right.
Repeating myself for the hundredth time: JUST fix different queues for random groups and premade teams.
Haha good point. Also a respectable argument people are discussing about a better match making system is. It will be hard to get into matches. Kind of like the difficulty of getting into a match on the preview server. I have a feeling improving the match making system is no simple task. But if everyone continues to provide feedback, ideas, and suggestions. It might make things a little easier.
There are no immortal builds or classes. Just people that don't know how to kill them.
Other than that, i do agree that a proper ranking-matchmaking system would help a lot giving people a clearer vision of what it actually is to fight an nenemy with comparable experience and gear.
Also, premade and pug different queues for PvP are needed to prevent premades from turning PvP in a one-sided slaughter, ruining the fun of pug players. And sometimes, trash talking them in the process.
There are no immortal builds or classes. Just people that don't know how to kill them.
Other than that, i do agree that a proper ranking-matchmaking system would help a lot giving people a clearer vision of what it actually is to fight an nenemy with comparable experience and gear.
Also, premade and pug different queues for PvP are needed to prevent premades from turning PvP in a one-sided slaughter, ruining the fun of pug players. And sometimes, trash talking them in the process.
Of course there are no immortal classes, when you know what your are doing. But, the fact that we have all the fish in the same pool, increases the odds that a 16k GS GWF with a new plastic card, will join a PuG and then everyone will leave. Of course they don't know how to kill him, but if you are in the learning process, you can't even touch him.
That been said, I guess that proper matchmaking system is needed, since it will make people that are new to pvp or new to gearing up for it, more eager to join against lesser geared people so they get the basics, before diving in the sea of pain.
I don't know if you' ll get difficulties of joining in such a system, but it's surely needed.
* Notorious Dwarven Bear Cavalry Leader *
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fonzotrosMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited January 2014
Hello all players and staf.
I ve seen new stats on pvp set and changed server i ve seen that now (pvp set gaunt) i have lost more than 400 on my GS, and it is wrong for me because muchh ppl play with this set for to do dg T2 that aren't easy so and now with new stats all is more complicated.
Fpr me was better old stats. If pvp set is OP for pvp ok than nerf it only when you enter in pvp mode for return the same in pve mode.
please don' ruined this good set that the people obtain with sacrifice in Gaunt.
Of course there are no immortal classes, when you know what your are doing. But, the fact that we have all the fish in the same pool, increases the odds that a 16k GS GWF with a new plastic card, will join a PuG and then everyone will leave. Of course they don't know how to kill him, but if you are in the learning process, you can't even touch him.
That been said, I guess that proper matchmaking system is needed, since it will make people that are new to pvp or new to gearing up for it, more eager to join against lesser geared people so they get the basics, before diving in the sea of pain.
I don't know if you' ll get difficulties of joining in such a system, but it's surely needed.
Much agreed.
To extend a bit further, there are some other classes/builds as well that is equally frustrating to everyone, such as the current INT/ITC/stealth oriented TR builds, as well as the classic "unkillable" DCs. Being a rogue myself, I, in good conscience, cannot say the ITC-spamming TR builds are in anyway 'fair' in terms of general PvP, as well as having the tancleric just standing in the middle of the node and running in circles, shrugging off attacks from some three, four, even the a whole team, as being "normal" in anyway.
This is not to direct animosity towards people who have developed, and use these builds. It tales a lot of experimentation and combat-testing, use of personal time and resources as well, and these builds are in a sense masterpieces that deserve every bit of recognition from the players. A streamlined effort that has found the best option in a world of competition.
However, acknowledging that fact, does not necessarily mean it does not have any problems. No build is truly unkillable, but the way some of these builds/classes function in the larger scale, the overall PvP match -- they are just too powerful in the tactical sense. One rogue holds a node forever against multiple people. The only window of opportunity to bring it down exists in small, fluctuating patterns which consist a mere 7~10second window where he's not even visible. One tancleric just shrugs off everything, and it require the team to switch around almost all of their powers to CCs and debuffs to even have a chance to start bringing its HP bar down -- at which point rest of his team comes charging in. Same with GWFs.
So, no build is truly unkillable, that is true. But at what cost? Sometimes, having that one class/build in your team, while the other team has not, simply means the tactical impact is so seriously unbalanced that you are basically going to have an easy, ROFLstomp of a game. When it becomes so clear having that certain build or class is so beneficial and effective to winning, that it comes the opponent has no chance to stand against it unless do the same thing, then that means something is wrong. That's what we call a balance-breaker.
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I would play the devil's advocate here, and actually support Tenacity -- but on one specific condition, and one condition only.
Reduce the number of beneficial stats Tenacity provides, and start with only one, or maybe two factors. If it is the developer's absolute contention that all the beneficial factors are needed, then at least try implementing it to Tenacity one by one, slowly, take plenty of time to experiment and gain feedback.
As long as Tenacity/Resilience blankets all classes with same amount of damage resistance (GWF same Tenacity as CW, ON TOP of their innate high tanky stuff, for example), it will still not work properly.
Tenacity should be designed to protect PvP from huge PvE-type damage spikes. Some classes are ALREADY decently protected, you don't need to add another layer of protection, that is similar for tanks and squishies (same Tenacity on GG gear for all classes).
Also, Tenacity does not make a lot of sense in out Domination context, because it takes FOREVER to reach 1000 if people do not die fast enough.
Tenacity however is a needed stat for Deathmatch modes, where once you die, you are out of the game. If we are going to have Deathmatch, then yes, by all means bring tenacity in, so matches will last a bit more than a minute.
Also, Tenacity does not make a lot of sense in out Domination context, because it takes FOREVER to reach 1000 if people do not die fast enough.
Tenacity however is a needed stat for Deathmatch modes, where once you die, you are out of the game. If we are going to have Deathmatch, then yes, by all means bring tenacity in, so matches will last a bit more than a minute.
Honestly, I know they probably wont do this BUT! I think Domination needs to be reworked TBH.... IF they just get rid of "contesting" nodes this would change ALOT of the domination game. I remember another MMO (most will guess) had a domination game, you actually had to click the node to start the capture and they didnt have "contesting".
Honestly I felt this would be a VERY needed change since it would remove alot of the current builds in the game. The "capture" timer would need to be around the 6-8 second mark, but once it capped, its capped and points tick until the other team caps it. Forget just "standing" on the node.
If you want Cryptic, create a KOTH (king of the hill) PVP map. 1 Node, based on the current "domination" tactics of contesting and capping. Essentially thats what this is is 3 node king of the hill.... Thats why people spec the way they do and its broken.
this is 100% important to stat resilience since a MAJOR reason resilience is not accepted is because the TYPE of PVP in the game. As Pers mentioned the the TYPE Of pvp you have, favors the most "unkillable" build you can make, NOW your adding in more defensive stats making some builds EVEN MORE unkillable making it just more boring.
1) Remove Contesting to existing domination.
2) Make a 1 "Node" KOTH game.
3) Make a "Deathmatch" type game.
4) Make a CTF game.
5) Give us PVP ranking and THEN matchmaking based on ranking - this will balance pvp matchups
THEN all of this will make resilience important factor. NOW players will need to be specced for BOTH damage and damage resist stats.
ALSO as mentioned above, resilience does TOO many things. It needs to focus in just 1-2 areas.
I really like the innate/inherent DR/less crit/less CC that is granted to ALL players.
The next "level" of DR (tenacity) you add should NOT just give flat DR,
I really think IF you want to add tenacity it should all be MULTIPLICATIVE:
Tenacity: reduces a PERCENTAGE of a persons (crit chance/armorpen) maybe add some CC resist as well.
Now you have given incetive for pvp gear but its not broken. If a player stacks 40% armor pen and tencity reduces his armor pen by 25% he is dropped down to 30% (a 10% effect).
If a person only has 20% armor pen and its reduced 25% now its down to 15% (a 5% effect)
I think this is the only way to keep it balanced. Same with Crit,
A person has 50% crit (TR) and it drops it by 25%, they would lose ALOT more crit than someone who only had 20% crit.
I like the (ARP%/Crit% and CC resist) as stats for tenacity.
OVERALL: I think a MAJOR key would be removing "contesting" from domination, giving MORE game TYPES and creating a proper way to match teams up. THIS will fix not only PVP but also will make tenacity more relevant. Then you can look at making Tenacity do what you want it to do....
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Honestly, I know they probably wont do this BUT! I think Domination needs to be reworked TBH.... IF they just get rid of "contesting" nodes this would change ALOT of the domination game.
I see no other reason for a Resilience-mechanic to be introduced. I'm quite positive developers are intelligent persons, as somebody designing a complex MMO should be; it's VERY easy to see that Resilience is good in the context where we have classic MMO power creep, with characters getting more and more stats and pushing more and more damage.
This damage is OK in PvE against bosses with millions of HP points, but it is usually too much in PvP against players with 20-40K HP.
However, in NWO, we have Domination. You die, you immediately RESURRECT and restart the fight, and the team that wins, wins on keeping points longer. Tenacity is not really something that comes as needed in this Domination type of PvP.
This is why I am posting about Deathmatch, where like in that other MMO, a team of 2 to 5 players go after each other, and once you die, you stay dead to the end of the game.
In Deathmatch, killing somebody in one encounter rotation would be pretty bad, people should last longer to allow tactics to come into play.
These things being said, I simply cannot see any reason Tenacity/Resilience was introduced, but for future game modes. I just think that devs should be forthcoming with testers and let us know what their intentions are, so we can offer feedback that makes sense, instead of endless pages of complaining and removed posts.
We need to keep in mind there will be a whole new module; Tenacity is most probably, just a pretty small part of the new stuff.
Comments
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
That's a bit of an exaggeration. With R8-9s, P/vorpal, GGset, GGweps, 2 def/deflect rings, I still hit big shards, Ice Knife 10K on fully geared PvP TR for example, more on CWs, less on GWFs etc.
Is it significantly lower than live? Sure... but you can still kill people. It just takes longer.
Is it too much of a damage reduction? Yes, for Domination.
For Deathmatch this Tenacity stat would be IDEAL. I am willing to bet Deathmatch modes are in plans.
Considering they rarely (if ever?) test whether content works or not, I'm praying to God they're listening. It is truly 11 pages of "Don't do this!" I can see this content severely damaging the NW PVP community and other casual players.
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
Did u try against others with full Tenacity stat?
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
If a CW with Perfects and Rank 10s can do next to no damage, how will the pugs fair against players who've stacked Defense, Deflect, and Regen?
Join Essence of Aggression: PVP-ing Hard Since Beta!
Yeah my example of 10K Ice Knife (crit) is against full Tenacity TR, but it was in first Tenacity patch. Have no idea if they further nerfed our damage in the 2nd patch lol, but I'll go to test a bit later and try to find a match and return with some results, I'll run ACT so everybody can see real numbers.
Trace makes a pretty decent point here, there will still be a big gap between the haves and have nots, an under geared pug vs someone with full set pvp and high enchants will fare the same as they do now, resulting in the same complaining as we get now, so how is this gonna be any different
Essence of Aggression
omg a 10k ice knife jesus a tank specced GWF or GF would just shrug that off and hit a potion since according to the notes arent effected by suppression so 8k heal 4 sec later and that 10k IK crit means jack. this is the worst idea ever a revamp of the match making system is all that is needed not this horse manure
I know right. Now theres completely no point to lifesteal even.
Yup, just got back from another round of testing (GWF this time), sad experience..
Tenacity beats defence for PvP, but if you want to fix the PvP experience for everybody...
Then the recent changes have to go away in favour for ranked pvp, and one premade queue + one "solo player only" queue.
In that way, a DC could still fill a spot in a pvp team and not just be a short way to loosing.
Some good thoughts in another thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?583241-Tenacity-Discussion-Thread&p=7064091&viewfull=1#post7064091
April/May last year. (actually earlier, just giving a time where it was more reasonable to ask for more)
All we wanted was proper matchmaking, more maps, more types of pvp.
Wasnt that difficult, bam, slam, Wrap it up. Bam! All in a patch. Everyone wins.
There was nothing wrong with the current pvp system EXCEPT the way it matches people up. As I've been saying since april. Pvp is fine from 1-59. Where 60 is a mess simply because of the way it matches people. There needs to be sub divisions for level 60 because of the wide range of gear.
Thats all.
Yeah CC can be a pain in the *** at times. But thats only when you're dealing with a someone significiantly stronger than you anyway. And theres ways to build a character to get higher CC resist. But to core system is fine the way it is.
So much for unique playstyle/builds that characters are supposed to have, that is supposed to be encouraged, especially giving this is supposed to be a dungeons and dragons game. Its cookie cutter builds and gear time now..
Even through all this discussion, I bet they going to shove this down anyway. Even if its a watered down version. I bet they going to throw this in anyway. ugh.
Lets see if they listen
I would like to Challenge the Devs to a Premade PvP match. Maybe then they will gain a basic understanding of how PvP actually works at end game instead of listening to 8k GS pugs who only pvp for dailies.
This is a PRODUCTIVE post. I honestly think the Devs Playing with some of the top end PvPers would help alot.
Please allow the Devs to see this post.
Thanks.
If you delete this post again, please would you PM me with WHY you did so? I don't understand why things like this are being censored.
You can delete this bottom part because technically it is discussing moderation, thats fine, just don't remove the whole thing, and please have the common decency to PM me and explain why you feel my opinion as someone who spends ALOT of money on this game should not be seen.
The character I use on test has the same gear as on live.
30.2k HP
~29% DR
40% Deflect
This is before the factoring in the new buffs. I think the point was made well that they went overboard. All these stats combined with ItC means I will pretty much never die unless I get hit with shocking.
Now just imagine a GWF, DC, GF, or Perma who focuses on defense as much as I do. You will literally have one hour matches where the high kill mark is 5 kills...
Dev's post asking for feedback.
Mod's delete the feedback...
*smh*
Here is my Feedback btw.
Do not push this live. not one Iota of it...
Everything about these changes are VERY BAD. PvP will becomes absolutely unplayable.
Remember how you almost chopped up the rogue class with your "stealth nerf"..
Now you want to do that to EVERY CLASS...
I do not know who thought up this idea... But instead of listening to them..Listen to those of us who play PvP at the highest level possible who have been posting all over these threads the past week.
This is not the way to fix PvP.
Many people have given great ideas on What is needed to fix PvP for the 8k Gear Score person and the 18k GS person...
1. A Separate Queue system based off ONE of these factors.
2. More maps Or tie into foundry, allow Foundry to regain it's usefulness. Most people just hum dum through them for daily AD and then others just use it to (E**loit)
3. Different PvP modes.... Capture the Flag, Deathmatch, Last Man Standing, etc
See page: 19
Currently, it adds TOO MANY BENEFITS for a single stat. Way too many. Even the infamous "Resilience" stat for WoW, only concentrated itself on one factor only.
PvP is obviously a very complex dynamic and there's no way only a few weeks of testing can ever predict anything correctly. So, I would support Tenacity on one condition, and that is:
Reduce the number of beneficial stats Tenacity provides, and start with only one, or maybe two factors. If it is the developer's absolute contention that all the beneficial factors are needed, then at least try implementing it to Tenacity one by one, slowly, take plenty of time to experiment and gain feedback.
IMO, if it was up to my liberty I would start by making Tenacity basically a "resilience" stat that adds a bit of more HP boost to the player, and gives a bit of a protection against critical severity. Test it out with that first and see if it more or less reduces the severity of damage spikes in a game. I would test that out for at least a full month before adding in another factor to Tenacity.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Healing depression addresses two factors (besides gimping DCs) while Tenacity actually complements class abilities (especially the GWF's - it actually helps them more because their class abilities overall were already strongest to begin with). Talk about mixed messages.
Why not change Tenacity so it affects each class differently? That way it's possible to tweak PvP balance without affecting everyone else (resulting in a need to re-balance everything all over again). And at least it can be explained in lore-terms as extra class-specific training from Neverwinter's colleges or something. It would make sense that it's class specific, we already have class-specific quests in place.
1st) No matchmaking system and no ranking system.
2nd)Premades with uber gear terrorising pick-up-groups.
If they fix the first, the second won't even exist. The problem is not in combat, one-shotting is as good as 3-shotting people. I mean in EVERY MMO that was geared based, if you entered a pvp with happy-greens you'd be decimated by anyone with much higher gear. It may not have been a one shot, but it was close to 4 seconds of survivability.
I am in full agreement with your saying that the current battle system and damage outputs ARE FINE. The thing is that they need to uncouple tankiness and damage. You can't survive for ever and also be a wrecking ball, and you can't be a wrecking ball while being immortal. It's just not right.
Repeating myself for the hundredth time: JUST fix different queues for random groups and premade teams.
Haha good point. Also a respectable argument people are discussing about a better match making system is. It will be hard to get into matches. Kind of like the difficulty of getting into a match on the preview server. I have a feeling improving the match making system is no simple task. But if everyone continues to provide feedback, ideas, and suggestions. It might make things a little easier.
Other than that, i do agree that a proper ranking-matchmaking system would help a lot giving people a clearer vision of what it actually is to fight an nenemy with comparable experience and gear.
Also, premade and pug different queues for PvP are needed to prevent premades from turning PvP in a one-sided slaughter, ruining the fun of pug players. And sometimes, trash talking them in the process.
Of course there are no immortal classes, when you know what your are doing. But, the fact that we have all the fish in the same pool, increases the odds that a 16k GS GWF with a new plastic card, will join a PuG and then everyone will leave. Of course they don't know how to kill him, but if you are in the learning process, you can't even touch him.
That been said, I guess that proper matchmaking system is needed, since it will make people that are new to pvp or new to gearing up for it, more eager to join against lesser geared people so they get the basics, before diving in the sea of pain.
I don't know if you' ll get difficulties of joining in such a system, but it's surely needed.
I ve seen new stats on pvp set and changed server i ve seen that now (pvp set gaunt) i have lost more than 400 on my GS, and it is wrong for me because muchh ppl play with this set for to do dg T2 that aren't easy so and now with new stats all is more complicated.
Fpr me was better old stats. If pvp set is OP for pvp ok than nerf it only when you enter in pvp mode for return the same in pve mode.
please don' ruined this good set that the people obtain with sacrifice in Gaunt.
TY a lot
Much agreed.
To extend a bit further, there are some other classes/builds as well that is equally frustrating to everyone, such as the current INT/ITC/stealth oriented TR builds, as well as the classic "unkillable" DCs. Being a rogue myself, I, in good conscience, cannot say the ITC-spamming TR builds are in anyway 'fair' in terms of general PvP, as well as having the tancleric just standing in the middle of the node and running in circles, shrugging off attacks from some three, four, even the a whole team, as being "normal" in anyway.
This is not to direct animosity towards people who have developed, and use these builds. It tales a lot of experimentation and combat-testing, use of personal time and resources as well, and these builds are in a sense masterpieces that deserve every bit of recognition from the players. A streamlined effort that has found the best option in a world of competition.
However, acknowledging that fact, does not necessarily mean it does not have any problems. No build is truly unkillable, but the way some of these builds/classes function in the larger scale, the overall PvP match -- they are just too powerful in the tactical sense. One rogue holds a node forever against multiple people. The only window of opportunity to bring it down exists in small, fluctuating patterns which consist a mere 7~10second window where he's not even visible. One tancleric just shrugs off everything, and it require the team to switch around almost all of their powers to CCs and debuffs to even have a chance to start bringing its HP bar down -- at which point rest of his team comes charging in. Same with GWFs.
So, no build is truly unkillable, that is true. But at what cost? Sometimes, having that one class/build in your team, while the other team has not, simply means the tactical impact is so seriously unbalanced that you are basically going to have an easy, ROFLstomp of a game. When it becomes so clear having that certain build or class is so beneficial and effective to winning, that it comes the opponent has no chance to stand against it unless do the same thing, then that means something is wrong. That's what we call a balance-breaker.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
As long as Tenacity/Resilience blankets all classes with same amount of damage resistance (GWF same Tenacity as CW, ON TOP of their innate high tanky stuff, for example), it will still not work properly.
Tenacity should be designed to protect PvP from huge PvE-type damage spikes. Some classes are ALREADY decently protected, you don't need to add another layer of protection, that is similar for tanks and squishies (same Tenacity on GG gear for all classes).
Also, Tenacity does not make a lot of sense in out Domination context, because it takes FOREVER to reach 1000 if people do not die fast enough.
Tenacity however is a needed stat for Deathmatch modes, where once you die, you are out of the game. If we are going to have Deathmatch, then yes, by all means bring tenacity in, so matches will last a bit more than a minute.
Honestly, I know they probably wont do this BUT! I think Domination needs to be reworked TBH.... IF they just get rid of "contesting" nodes this would change ALOT of the domination game. I remember another MMO (most will guess) had a domination game, you actually had to click the node to start the capture and they didnt have "contesting".
Honestly I felt this would be a VERY needed change since it would remove alot of the current builds in the game. The "capture" timer would need to be around the 6-8 second mark, but once it capped, its capped and points tick until the other team caps it. Forget just "standing" on the node.
If you want Cryptic, create a KOTH (king of the hill) PVP map. 1 Node, based on the current "domination" tactics of contesting and capping. Essentially thats what this is is 3 node king of the hill.... Thats why people spec the way they do and its broken.
this is 100% important to stat resilience since a MAJOR reason resilience is not accepted is because the TYPE of PVP in the game. As Pers mentioned the the TYPE Of pvp you have, favors the most "unkillable" build you can make, NOW your adding in more defensive stats making some builds EVEN MORE unkillable making it just more boring.
1) Remove Contesting to existing domination.
2) Make a 1 "Node" KOTH game.
3) Make a "Deathmatch" type game.
4) Make a CTF game.
5) Give us PVP ranking and THEN matchmaking based on ranking - this will balance pvp matchups
THEN all of this will make resilience important factor. NOW players will need to be specced for BOTH damage and damage resist stats.
ALSO as mentioned above, resilience does TOO many things. It needs to focus in just 1-2 areas.
I really like the innate/inherent DR/less crit/less CC that is granted to ALL players.
The next "level" of DR (tenacity) you add should NOT just give flat DR,
I really think IF you want to add tenacity it should all be MULTIPLICATIVE:
Tenacity: reduces a PERCENTAGE of a persons (crit chance/armorpen) maybe add some CC resist as well.
Now you have given incetive for pvp gear but its not broken. If a player stacks 40% armor pen and tencity reduces his armor pen by 25% he is dropped down to 30% (a 10% effect).
If a person only has 20% armor pen and its reduced 25% now its down to 15% (a 5% effect)
I think this is the only way to keep it balanced. Same with Crit,
A person has 50% crit (TR) and it drops it by 25%, they would lose ALOT more crit than someone who only had 20% crit.
I like the (ARP%/Crit% and CC resist) as stats for tenacity.
OVERALL: I think a MAJOR key would be removing "contesting" from domination, giving MORE game TYPES and creating a proper way to match teams up. THIS will fix not only PVP but also will make tenacity more relevant. Then you can look at making Tenacity do what you want it to do....
I see no other reason for a Resilience-mechanic to be introduced. I'm quite positive developers are intelligent persons, as somebody designing a complex MMO should be; it's VERY easy to see that Resilience is good in the context where we have classic MMO power creep, with characters getting more and more stats and pushing more and more damage.
This damage is OK in PvE against bosses with millions of HP points, but it is usually too much in PvP against players with 20-40K HP.
However, in NWO, we have Domination. You die, you immediately RESURRECT and restart the fight, and the team that wins, wins on keeping points longer. Tenacity is not really something that comes as needed in this Domination type of PvP.
This is why I am posting about Deathmatch, where like in that other MMO, a team of 2 to 5 players go after each other, and once you die, you stay dead to the end of the game.
In Deathmatch, killing somebody in one encounter rotation would be pretty bad, people should last longer to allow tactics to come into play.
These things being said, I simply cannot see any reason Tenacity/Resilience was introduced, but for future game modes. I just think that devs should be forthcoming with testers and let us know what their intentions are, so we can offer feedback that makes sense, instead of endless pages of complaining and removed posts.
We need to keep in mind there will be a whole new module; Tenacity is most probably, just a pretty small part of the new stuff.