I see no other reason for a Resilience-mechanic to be introduced. I'm quite positive developers are intelligent persons, as somebody designing a complex MMO should be; it's VERY easy to see that Resilience is good in the context where we have classic MMO power creep, with characters getting more and more stats and pushing more and more damage.
This damage is OK in PvE against bosses with millions of HP points, but it is usually too much in PvP against players with 20-40K HP.
However, in NWO, we have Domination. You die, you immediately RESURRECT and restart the fight, and the team that wins, wins on keeping points longer. Tenacity is not really something that comes as needed in this Domination type of PvP.
This is why I am posting about Deathmatch, where like in that other MMO, a team of 2 to 5 players go after each other, and once you die, you stay dead to the end of the game.
In Deathmatch, killing somebody in one encounter rotation would be pretty bad, people should last longer to allow tactics to come into play.
These things being said, I simply cannot see any reason Tenacity/Resilience was introduced, but for future game modes. I just think that devs should be forthcoming with testers and let us know what their intentions are, so we can offer feedback that makes sense, instead of endless pages of complaining and removed posts.
We need to keep in mind there will be a whole new module; Tenacity is most probably, just a pretty small part of the new stuff.
I agree. Especially that tenacity is not needed in domination PVP as it stands now. Again after really thinking about what makes current domination fun and potentially looking at adding in other sources/games/maps of pvp... It really seems to me the single factor that makes those cheese builds work is the current domination game.
When you remove "Contesting" and make it a flat your points tick or theirs do. Not only does it put much more urgency into each moment in the game, it also effectively speeds up EVERY game and ontop of that, removes a MAJOR part of the cheese that is unkillable 1v1 builds.
If you remove contesting, the perma TR or the Sentinel regen builds lose ALOT of their power.
Compare current domination:
When an opposing team controls their home node, right now the MOST effective thing to do is take an "unkillable" 1v1 class like a Tutle GF, Regen Senti, Perma TR and throw them on the node effectively contesting it for quite a while.
Remove contesting and now that entire strategy is gone. You could send almost any class to ensure the node isnt capped, and the entire time the low damage/high survivability classes TRY and cap the node or TRY and contest you, your team gets points.
What you MIGHT end up seeing is:
TWO classes going to clear a node, THEN a Senti/Perma stays behind to ensure THEY keep the node, but it would really really easy to send a CW/GF to prone lock a GWF down, while they "cap" the node back, and effectively dont have to kill the GWF to get their points back.
This type of gameplay seems like it would not only take much more skill to win, games would be faster, more fun, more adrenaline and faster paced.
THIS type of gameplay lends itself MORE towards tenacity enabling characters to try and stack more damage in order to remove and capture nodes.
Does the current tenacity work even in this type of gameplay? I dont think so, I STILL hold its TOO MUCH, but removing contesting NOW ads whole new strategy to the game that wasnt there before.
AS far as the "Healing Depression"
Honestly.... Make this a PVP Enchant... Purchased via "Glory" like the current Raven artifact. The enchant starts at Normal and could easily do something LIKE this:
"Healing Depression Enchantment"
-Strike your foe with an additional 4.4% of weapon damage as necrotic damage. Additionally your target receives Healing Depression for 10 seconds, reducing the effectiveness of healing by 20% on your target. Lasts 10 seconds. (Targets can only be depressed once every 20 seconds).
"Greater Healing Depression Enchantment"
-Strike your foe with an additional 7% of weapon damage as necrotic damage. Additionally your target receives Healing Depression for 10 seconds, reducing the effectiveness of healing by 30% on your target. Lasts 10 seconds. (Targets can only be depressed once every 20 seconds).
"Perfect Healing Depression Enchantment"
-Strike your foe with an additional 8.8% of weapon damage as necrotic damage. Additionally your target receives Healing Depression for 10 seconds, reducing the effectiveness of healing by 40% on your target. Lasts 10 seconds. (Targets can only be depressed once every 20 seconds).
It combines the effects of many enchants, seems fairly balanced and not TOO op in the sense that targets can only receive this debuff once every 20 seconds so it removes the effectiveness of stacking. NOW I could see this playing into a TEAM game VERY effectively in that it would really benefit the team to have ONE person using this enchant... Its not TOO op, but also not SO amazing it replaces other enchants....
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited January 2014
Devs desinged best enchant in game P.VORPAL, and and best build in game critical builds. Now in pvp we got 10% Reduced Critical Strike Damage no one want this change cuz perfect enchants cost too much ,way too expensive give it away.... and we must agan respec regear our self to start from the beginning agan making new enchats new builds...
Suggestion :
*Remove 10% Reduced Critical Strike Damage
*ADD more 10% Increased Damage Resistance total 20 % dmr and any build and enchat& build will hurt whit this not - just one .(same result for every one for p.vorpal critt build too)
*Also y can replace -10 % armor pen to 10% Increased Damage Resistance to total 30% (same result for every one for armor penetration build too)
Devs desinged best enchant in game P.VORPAL, and and best build in game critical builds. Now in pvp we got 10% Reduced Critical Strike Damage no one want this change cuz perfect enchants cost too much ,way too expensive give it away.... and we must agan respec regear our self to start from the beginning agan making new enchats new builds...
Suggestion :
*Remove 10% Reduced Critical Strike Damage
*ADD more 10% Increased Damage Resistance total 20 % dmr and any build and enchat& build will hurt whit this not - just one .(same result for every one for p.vorpal critt build too)
*Also y can replace -10 % armor pen to 10% Increased Damage Resistance to total 30% (same result for every one for armor penetration build too)
I think thats the point, is the best build in the game is the vorpal because its so strong. Its adding more damage to already the highest hitting abilities...
I am in favor of hurting critical builds SOME but I dont think crit damage is the way to do it, I think if resilience reduces crit % and also armor pen % that would work fine...
Again all of this should NOT be additive... but multiplicative.
so again, if you have 900 tenacity, it reduces crit % and ARP by 25%.
What this means is a person with 50% crit and 25% ARP are affected like this:
50% reduced by 25% = 37.5% crit chance
25% reduced by 25% = 18.75%
Versus NOW if it were a FLAT 10% chance:
50% reduced to 40% CRIT
25% reduced to 15% ARP
The multiple affect is what is NEEDED.
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
Are you really trying to make all tank builds unkillable?
A much better approach to all this would be simply to adjust all the relevant stats diminishing returns in pvp.
None of these ideas even pertain to pvps biggest problem, which is undergeared and inexperienced pugs vs experienced veterans and premades. No amount of stat adjustment or introduction of new stats will fix that, only matchmaking will.
Are you really trying to make all tank builds unkillable?
A much better approach to all this would be simply to adjust all the relevant stats diminishing returns in pvp.
None of these ideas even pertain to pvps biggest problem, which is undergeared and inexperienced pugs vs experienced veterans and premades. No amount of stat adjustment or introduction of new stats will fix that, only matchmaking will.
If you remove contesting, "tank" builds will be MUCH less effective. If you add other game types like arena slayer tank builds lose effectiveness as well...
If you scroll up youll see me say this:
"1) Remove Contesting to existing domination.
2) Make a 1 "Node" KOTH game.
3) Make a "Deathmatch" type game.
4) Make a CTF game.
5) Give us PVP ranking and THEN matchmaking based on ranking - this will balance pvp matchups"
That is the core fix to pvp, pvp rank and matchmaking... The tenacity thing wont do it by itself, but it seems they are moving forward with tenacity... ANY type of +DR that you want to add to the tank builds will make them more unkillable, and the only way to adjust PVP "domination" for that is to remove contesting...
Remove the thing in pvp that makes unkillable zero damage builds strong... and people wont play like that...
The first and foremost thing that needs to happen is proper matchmaking.
As far as tenacity. Too much benefits in it.
Im on the edge of considering it would be alright as armor enchants, while healing depression could be weapon enchants. (since they in a way cancel each other out at least for the tanky builds) but Im not even that confident about that completely.
In anycase, before even thinking of doing anything to change how pvp is played currently, proper matchmaking needs to happen.
Feedback:General
Perma stealth and semi perma stealth TRs are entirely untouchable and not even affected by the healing debuff since they stay hidden most of the time, further the small window that the other classes/specs had before to actually kill them doesn't mean much anymore as nobody could even possibly hope to produce enough damage in such a short time period anymore. GF is extremely annoying, perhaps the control resistance from tenacity is bugged but these guys ping pong with a newfound vigour. GWFs have laughable damage and are currently just a massive moving sponge sucking up all the damage and not really being able to kill or even damage anything. The CWs game felt very fluid but with the new defences I found it easier to survive WHILE killing people since the damage is still comparatively normal(yes, its reduced but at least I can actually see my enemies HPs fading). DC is a complete joke, it has no use in pvp and I becomes a total dead weight for any team they are on. Hunter still relies heavily on bugged vines and perhaps it is just me but they seemed even more bugged, since they are ranged killing people did become a tad easier with the extra defences. Tanky TR builds can literally facetank, even better than sentinel GWFs.
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
Or, instead of completely changing all of the existing game mechanics, render builds and gear inviable, they could just... pit evenly matched teams against each other?
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited January 2014
I find it quite odd your guys are suggesting any of these effects to be enchantments.
The biggest issue with Tenacity, as proposed, is that it will distance PvE vs PvP players even further.
As a means to balance the mechanics for PvP it's not a bad idea, I feel it should be more class based rather than universal de/buffs, but under no circumstances should it be tied to PvP gear because it will funnel people into haves and have nots when it comes to gear specifically for PvP.
Everybody should have these effects. Period.
PvPers already have an edge by choosing powers and feats specifically to PvP with. They don't need gear advantages too.
Unless I am way off Tenecity is meant to be a means to balance some aspects which were out of line. It's not balancing if it isn't across the board equally...
I find it quite odd your guys are suggesting any of these effects to be enchantments.
The biggest issue with Tenacity, as proposed, is that it will distance PvE vs PvP players even further.
As a means to balance the mechanics for PvP it's not a bad idea, I feel it should be more class based rather than universal de/buffs, but under no circumstances should it be tied to PvP gear because it will funnel people into haves and have nots when it comes to gear specifically for PvP.
Everybody should have these effects. Period.
PvPers already have an edge by choosing powers and feats specifically to PvP with. They don't need gear advantages too.
Unless I am way off Tenecity is meant to be a means to balance some aspects which were out of line. It's not balancing if it isn't across the board equally...
I know exactly what you're trying to say. the thing about trying to apply this equally through all classes, is that either globally or individually, it would not be equal no matter what because of classes and then the different builds for possible for those classes.
A good example would be GWF. Alot of people talk about GWF's being immortal. But that only applies to Sentinel built GWFs. If they apply this subject matter in regards to Sentinel GWF's then every NON- Sentinel GWF will suffer and just be cannon fodder. If they apply everyone the same amount as GWF, this will benefit non sentinel GWF's but then Sentinel built GWF's will be godly. Where on the other end of the spectrum, if they give everyone more tenacity, and GWF's less. Sentinels will be alright, where GWF's that are non sentinel will just be, once again cannon fodder.
By all accounts, this tenacity will just bottle neck everything, from builds, to gear to how matches are played, and as you said, it will distance not just pve and pvp people, but even the regular pvp people.
And to be honest, the only advantages pvpers have, is premades and actual pvp experience.
If you know what you're doing, you can go into pvp with all sorts of powers and feats, even if specifically set for pve and still do well. Its not about the powers and feats you have, its about what you do with them.
the gear is a small thing, but a big problem due to how matches are set up, it then becomes a big problem. where people that just reaches 60 who probably have some blues with about 6-7k Gearscore against people that have 13k+ gearscores.
If they pvp'd anytime before 60. When they get in, they should and will know what to do. The problem lies is that matching up these people is the same as matching up level 30 people to fight level 50 people. In all regards all pvp before 60 is balanced, but at 60 it gets frustrated, this is the reason why. The gear gap is so far that its like fighting people 10's of levels higher than you. level 60 pvp needs subdivisions first and foremost.
tenacity wont solve a thing and will infact cause more problems than it supposedly fixes. The core pvp experience is fine, it just needs adjustments, adding this completely changes the core pvp experience and actually makes it less enjoyable for everyone for the reasons stated many times by others and the ones I highlighted above.
Edit:
Also the reason the enchantments thing is brought up, is a suggestion of compromise because they are probably likely to push this tenacity thing out anyway. Just like refinement change for enchants. Thats how I feel. Im doubting they would scrap this whole tenacity thing, for how much I would want and wish they do.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited January 2014
Actually, that's not what I was trying to say. Haha.
My characters are built for PvE.
I couldn't give a rats behind about PvP because it's the vast minority of my time.
My builds have zero focus on PvP powers and feats and are therefore far weaker. That's not arguable. I could very easily respec and double the PvP potential of every one of my characters by switching to focus on aspects which aid more in PvP than in PvE but as I said I am a PvE player who happens to PvP occasionally and that is how my characters will remain.
However that was a side note.
I want Tenacity to be class based because not every class is strong and weak in the same areas.
The perfect example is how clerics do not need further healing debuffs placed on them while other classes, such as the GWF, arguably do. It just doesn't make sense to apply flat debuffs to all classes as it won't improve balance in PvP.
But even that was a side note.
The point I made was that there is no justification to applying Tenacity if not every character gets it. Players which have Tenacity through PvP sets are far stronger than those who do not. It's the exact opposite of balancing.
Every person who joins PvP should get buffs and debuffs innately or it should be applied to every single armor in the game based on item tiers. If it is only for specific PvP armor it will create vast power differences between people who live to PvP, people who do both and people who couldn't give a rat's behind about PvP.
If the goal is to balance aspects of PvP then it shouldn't be designed in a way which benefits only players who invest into PvP.
And if Tenacity wasn't designed to balance PvP I don't see a purpose to its existence.
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited January 2014
Oh, and enchants would be worse than PvP only armor.
I *might* get a set of armor specifically to PvP in and throw decent enchantments in it.
I *will not* change enchantments in my main armor every time I decide to switch between PvE and PvP. Far too expensive even with it now being a gold cost.
Now having worked on my own Neverwinter Persistent World...
You don't spend time on something and then trash the whole idea because some people dislike it.
There is NOTHING wrong with Tenacity if it is done correctly with the mindset of balancing issues with PvP. And if you really think PvP is balanced then IDK what PvP you have been playing because it most certainly wasn't in Neverwinter. Matchmaking is the big kahuna but the classes are just not balanced for PvP.
Neverwinter's PvP right now is like a Western Duel. Whoever hits first, especially with CC, tends to win. Think of the match-up between a Control Wizard and a Rogue. If the CW CC's the rogue first the rogue dies. If the CW doesn't CC the rogue first the CW dies. Horrible.
Imagine if Battlefield had every fight being one shot kills. Whoever fires first wins. That's what Neverwinter is at now and that is what Tenacity will reduce.
And before you say it balances out, no. There isn't a PvP game in the world which balances like that. One hit kills can happen but they aren't the norm and that has to be fixed in Neverwinter.
But these changes have to be applied to every person in PvP regardless of gear or enchantments. If some people have the gear and some people don't there's a huge power gap created and that is unacceptable.
It can't be PvP Gear Only. It can't be an enchantment. It can't be excluded on any armor pieces.
Ideally it shouldn't even be a stackable stat.
It should be a balancing factor within PvP itself.
My characters are built for PvE.
I couldn't give a rats behind about PvP because it's the vast minority of my time.
My builds have zero focus on PvP powers and feats and are therefore far weaker.
What makes you think you have any idea what you are talking about if you do not PvP?
This is exactly the problem. Inexperienced people crying because they were beaten, mercilessly, in a match. There are already several defensive stats in the game.
Practice and experience will make you better. Tenacity will only prolong your death.
Players which have Tenacity through PvP sets are far stronger than those who do not. It's the exact opposite of balancing.
Every person who joins PvP should get buffs and debuffs innately or it should be applied to every single armor in the game based on item tiers. If it is only for specific PvP armor it will create vast power differences between people who live to PvP, people who do both and people who couldn't give a rat's behind about PvP.
GG set is the easiest armor set in the game to obtain. It's not depending on RNG, you just have to play GG. Compare that to tens and tens of T2 runs to get that elusive set piece.
What is bad here, from my 50/50% PvE/PvPer perspective, is the need for 2 armor/weapon sets, and the huge issue with gold because of our needs to swap enchants each time we go from PvP to PvE. It basically amounts to 12.5 Gold each swap (Armor: def/armor slot, weapon/offhand: 2 offensive slots/wep enh slot-->5 slots=12.5 Gold/pop).
Now... if they will add tenacity to all sets, they will most probably nerf the other stats on them. I don't want that for sure.
All in all, your post basically says that people that have gear are advantaged against people that don't have it. Dunno what to say, but all MMOs work like this, to keep you playing. The only true solution to this issue would be matchmaking.
Rats, accidentally posted on the other thread, meant to post here.. Anyway, here's what I wrote:
I see what Tenacity is trying to do, and I applaud the attempt.. however, I fear that the approach is flawed.
I suppose it's trying to address two issues.. The first is that damage output for PvE is balanced for the PvE encounters, where targets have a lot of HP. Obviously, someone who is used to 50k at-wills in PvE can't be allowed to do that in PvP. This is a common problem in MMOs, which is why stats like "tenacity" or "resilience" exist, primarily to make PvP crits lower. There is nothing wrong with that.
First, right now, tenacity affects too many stats. Sure, you can adjust the coefficients for each stat, but still, it feels like a bit of a sawn-off shotgun.
It seems to be trying to level the playing field- because it's no fun getting steamed. However, the reason that people are getting steamrolled is because of massive disparities of gear, skill and experience. No matter the class (I have four, at last count), they all sucked and died a lot in PvP at first, they all lasted longer as my gear got better, and then as I learned to play a little, I was more successful.
For example, my Control Wizard is squishy, really squishy. Until I improved my gear, I could get regularly one-shotted. No big deal, them's the breaks. However, the biggest factor in victory or defeat is skill. Until I learned to kite and control melee, I was a free kill. Once I did, I stood a chance. When I am in practise, I will usually beat bad players, and lose to players who are better than me, given rough gear parity. This is as it should be. I don't expect to rock up in 9k GS and face tank a half-orc in armour and a giant sword, as a CW in a dress.
No, I feel like tenacity is (currently) an attempt to compensate for the lack of even a behind the scenes match-making. Some other games attempt to have some kills/points based ranking, and bracket you (where possible) with broadly similar players. It's not perfect, but it helps to keep things fun. Obviously when not many players are in the queue, it mixes things up a bit, but it's generally an excellent way to keep things interesting.
Another approach (which isn't mutually exclusive with ranking/bracketting) is to use standardised gear during PvP, to avoid the steamroller effect. I am guessing that an F2P ("P2W") game is unlikely to adopt this approach, as obviously, they want people to experience the massive resource pinch of trying to maintain a second set of enchants.
Anyway, right now, PvP with tenacity in its current state feels feeble and boring. The stat overreaches itself. I would be happy to see it dialled back in scope to affect damage output disparities between PvP and PvE only (maybe reducing crit severity). This is an important aim, as right now, the time to kill can be too low, making some fights feel too shallow/fast. It's a balancing act though, it needs dialling back to find the "sweet spot" where people can still kill each other and victories can still feel conclusive, while still being an improvement on the status quo.
However, to try and make it a "welfare stat" to compensate for gear or practise will reduce the appeal of PvP in general. I would suggest that the devs measure twice and cut once- and make the stat relatively weak, making small changes to it with care. Major changes cause "chasing the needle", a downward spiral of overcorrection (think helicopter pilots, not "Trainspotting" ). If the devs want to make PvP less hostile to new players, the best approach is improvements to matchmaking, really.
The stat is clearly affecting too many stats at once and should never ever make it to live like this.
They had attempted to add resilience etc. into champions online. The attempt failed miserably and the entire "project" got scrapped. I wonder how/why such an awfully terrible feature made it to the next game (NW), at all.
I really hope NW is not going to get crippled, the same way as CO is.
Edit single character stats/features if a nerf/amp is needed. Adding a single stat is the lazy way.
A good example would be GWF. Alot of people talk about GWF's being immortal. But that only applies to Sentinel built GWFs. If they apply this subject matter in regards to Sentinel GWF's then every NON- Sentinel GWF will suffer and just be cannon fodder.
Perhaps because Sentinel GWFs are OP and need to be balanced. I personally find it ridiculous, I have TWO GFs and TWO GWFs.
On my GF I have 5k defense and my DR is just around 50%. On my GWF I have LESS than 3k defense, but my total DR is something around 56%
So why is it, my Sent can get MORE DR (about 10% more) with WAY less defense stat (about HALF the defense stat).
Its because the last Feat in the Sent tree is a HUGE DR buff that IMO needs to get toned down. Then youll see other builds become viable as well, especially with tenacity.
ALL of this "unkillable" talk ONLY pertains to PVP when you have contesting nodes involved. Honestly I think players SHOULD be able to spec characters that way, but I also think that in most situations they may or may not be ideal. THe big issue right now is that PVP Domination is played around contesting nodes.
You take the MOST unkillable characters and stick them on nodes to contest/defend them. This is ALL why the BEST builds revolve around high hp/dr/regen etc....
IF they removed contesting from PVP, so it wouldnt matter if a Sent stood on the far point to "contest" it, it would still tick points for the team that held the node, you would see FAR less of that type of play in PVP and you might see alot more usefulness out of tenacity since its a nice way to get good DR while not having to spec for tankiness.
Also the healing depression is flat out a bad idea to have across the board. BUT! I could see it working very well as a PVP focused enchant that was able to be bought with Glory. Thats the idea is its easy to get for everyone willing to put in the time.
Tenacity as an enchant? No. Healing depression? Sure!
Also again, some of the issue with PVP as well is the massive BURST spikes people can do via Vorpal+Crits. I dont mind Tenacity toning that down a bit but instead of a flat damage nerf, I think all that needs to happen is make it LESS likely to happen and that accomplishes the same thing.
I posted before about tencity reducing a PERCENTAGE of crit chance as well as a percentage of ARP. I still think this idea would work really well. Its not a big DR boost its just something that reduces the burst damage for all builds.
All in all, I would really like them to have an announcement surrounding WHY they went this route and whats up coming for Mod 3 PVP wise so we can give feedback around this stat and that...
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dezallenarMember, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2
edited January 2014
I used to run 14k power in PVP before GG came out
I used to run 3k regen in PVP came out
Im running 4k recovery now, and the new update is aqctualy quite a good pump up to GF's after the whole GWF mess up
Despite CC resist from tenacity, i still think right now CC is the way to go to kill things without loosing tankyness to dmg.
Any chance that the game will start recognizing miliseconds in near future? There is no difference between 5,1 5,5 and 5,9 sec CD its all 6 sec even tho description states that CD is at a fraction value.
Is there any listing of specific armor or geat sets that will get the new resilience stat?
Will they be placed only on new sets from the time of the patch release, or will older sets purchased before be 'grandfathered' in?
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Is there any listing of specific armor or geat sets that will get the new resilience stat?
Will they be placed only on new sets from the time of the patch release, or will older sets purchased before be 'grandfathered' in?
The affected items will be the T1 PvP sets bought for glory in the Trade of Blades and the T2 Gauntylgrym sets.
Hey guys, lots of feedback that is operating on a series of assumptions, so I wanted to step in and clarify some of the underlying logic behind these changes.
First and foremost, Tenacity is *not* designed to make lower geared players feel more competitive with high end kitted out players. While it will just by its very existence adjust how long it takes for them to get beaten, they should still get beaten every time. Tenacity however is designed to address a problem that we identified with PVP among players of similar skill. This problem is that PVP was often very binary. You either were fighting someone who would effectively vaporize you before you could respond if you didn't see them coming, or the person who managed to fire first won a vast majority of those encounters (*cough*Han Solo*cough*). While this isn't necessarily a bad thing, we wanted to introduce more chances for counterplay by giving players a longer time to live when under fire so they could at least get an opportunity to try and swing the fight back in their favor or request reinforcements. We are carefully monitoring how tanky this makes people however as we do not want the game to feel stagnant at higher levels. It's a very careful balancing act and that is why we have the stat on the Test Shard right now, and Devs are regularly jumping in to play it.
Second, we have heard what people are saying about wanting more gear options, so we are in the process of making more PVP pieces of gear that provide a wider array of stat allocations for players to use. These new sets will exist at T1, T2, and beyond. However they will all use the existing PVP set bonuses.
Third, about how many things Tenacity effects. This is actually not our first iteration of this stat. During its initial incarnation it interacted with the math in a very different way, and was originally was only base additional resistance. Player critical hits were still a rampant problem however and Crit became the go to offensive stat in all cases, so we needed to reign that in. When we added the Critical Hit resistance we fundamentally shifted the stat values in PVP unintentionally. Therefore Armor Penetration became the mathematically "right" stat to stack offensively, and we needed to curb both of those stats at roughly the same value, so we added Armor Penetration Depression to the stat. However with the changes to how Tenacity interacts with Defense and AC in the math, this may no longer be required, so we are monitoring it carefully to see if we can scale it back, or remove Armor Penetration Depression all together.
Finally, about matchmaking. We have people who have been working on an improved matchmaking system for a while now and we are hoping to get it out to you guys as soon as we can, but that is beyond the scope of this thread. However the context of it is important in that as I stated above, Tenacity is aimed at teams of roughly equal skill and gear, and was not intended to make low end players competitive with high end players.
Hopefully that clears up a lot of the questions!
Chris "Gentleman_Crush" Meyer
EDIT: For those looking to test, myself and a handful of other devs are on preview right now (11:20 AM PST) and will probably be on this afternoon as well (5pm or so PST)
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ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
lots of good info here have you considered that because the effects of tenacity affect players of different gear scores in different ways that if matchmaking were implemented before 10 acity that the effects of tenacity could be variable depending on gear score / rank bracket also when you say the sets will have the same bonuses do you mean for instance that every Guardian fighter set will have plus 25 percent shield meter and plus 10 percent Run
I still dont see the reason to mess with the gear though. Its still restrictive, as it makes people have to have pvp gear to pvp with.
I only use part of the pvp gear myself for many of my characters, simply because the range of stats are too wide for my playstyle on those characters. A few of my characters have some focused stats, so I have to use other kinds of gear for that.
Its still quite restrictive to people's builds and playstyles that arent cookie cutter. Unless you guys are making about 12 different kinds of sets for each class for each tier.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
Hey guys, lots of feedback that is operating on a series of assumptions, so I wanted to step in and clarify some of the underlying logic behind these changes.
First and foremost, Tenacity is *not* designed to make lower geared players feel more competitive with high end kitted out players. While it will just by its very existence adjust how long it takes for them to get beaten, they should still get beaten every time. Tenacity however is designed to address a problem that we identified with PVP among players of similar skill. This problem is that PVP was often very binary. You either were fighting someone who would effectively vaporize you before you could respond if you didn't see them coming, or the person who managed to fire first won a vast majority of those encounters (*cough*Han Solo*cough*). While this isn't necessarily a bad thing, we wanted to introduce more chances for counterplay by giving players a longer time to live when under fire so they could at least get an opportunity to try and swing the fight back in their favor or request reinforcements. We are carefully monitoring how tanky this makes people however as we do not want the game to feel stagnant at higher levels. It's a very careful balancing act and that is why we have the stat on the Test Shard right now, and Devs are regularly jumping in to play it.
Second, we have heard what people are saying about wanting more gear options, so we are in the process of making more PVP pieces of gear that provide a wider array of stat allocations for players to use. These new sets will exist at T1, T2, and beyond. However they will all use the existing PVP set bonuses.
Third, about how many things Tenacity effects. This is actually not our first iteration of this stat. During its initial incarnation it interacted with the math in a very different way, and was originally was only base additional resistance. Player critical hits were still a rampant problem however and Crit became the go to offensive stat in all cases, so we needed to reign that in. When we added the Critical Hit resistance we fundamentally shifted the stat values in PVP unintentionally. Therefore Armor Penetration became the mathematically "right" stat to stack offensively, and we needed to curb both of those stats at roughly the same value, so we added Armor Penetration Depression to the stat. However with the changes to how Tenacity interacts with Defense and AC in the math, this may no longer be required, so we are monitoring it carefully to see if we can scale it back, or remove Armor Penetration Depression all together.
Finally, about matchmaking. We have people who have been working on an improved matchmaking system for a while now and we are hoping to get it out to you guys as soon as we can, but that is beyond the scope of this thread. However the context of it is important in that as I stated above, Tenacity is aimed at teams of roughly equal skill and gear, and was not intended to make low end players competitive with high end players.
Hopefully that clears up a lot of the questions!
Chris "Gentleman_Crush" Meyer
My question why shoud i buy agan 18000 zen ?(cost of perfect vorpal enchant)
18000 zen = 180 euro if y buy 21200 zen
How much money i need to spend agan if somone say Power stat is too powerful or recovery or defense ?
My most problem is i love this game but realy i respecced regeared m GF like 10 times then i roll to gwf.
Now agan i spend many euros into my GWF and was for nothing?
What do y think shoud i do ?
(and before somone want to troll i rolled to GWF not beacuse he is now the beast on pvp i rolled cuz i like stupid figthers )
Hey guys, lots of feedback that is operating on a series of assumptions, so I wanted to step in and clarify some of the underlying logic behind these changes.
Chris "Gentleman_Crush" Meyer
Thanks, it's all we ask, if testers and devs keep communicating to each other and the purpose behind changes is clear, I'm sure the end product will be awesome.
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schweifer1982Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,662Arc User
edited January 2014
My second question is do we realy need the -10% crittical dmg & -10 % armor pen ?
Why cant we have +30% Dmr so we dont need agan respec and new enchants+gear.
Hey guys, lots of feedback that is operating on a series of assumptions, so I wanted to step in and clarify some of the underlying logic behind these changes.
First and foremost, Tenacity is *not* designed to make lower geared players feel more competitive with high end kitted out players. While it will just by its very existence adjust how long it takes for them to get beaten, they should still get beaten every time. Tenacity however is designed to address a problem that we identified with PVP among players of similar skill. This problem is that PVP was often very binary. You either were fighting someone who would effectively vaporize you before you could respond if you didn't see them coming, or the person who managed to fire first won a vast majority of those encounters (*cough*Han Solo*cough*). While this isn't necessarily a bad thing, we wanted to introduce more chances for counterplay by giving players a longer time to live when under fire so they could at least get an opportunity to try and swing the fight back in their favor or request reinforcements. We are carefully monitoring how tanky this makes people however as we do not want the game to feel stagnant at higher levels. It's a very careful balancing act and that is why we have the stat on the Test Shard right now, and Devs are regularly jumping in to play it.
Second, we have heard what people are saying about wanting more gear options, so we are in the process of making more PVP pieces of gear that provide a wider array of stat allocations for players to use. These new sets will exist at T1, T2, and beyond. However they will all use the existing PVP set bonuses.
Third, about how many things Tenacity effects. This is actually not our first iteration of this stat. During its initial incarnation it interacted with the math in a very different way, and was originally was only base additional resistance. Player critical hits were still a rampant problem however and Crit became the go to offensive stat in all cases, so we needed to reign that in. When we added the Critical Hit resistance we fundamentally shifted the stat values in PVP unintentionally. Therefore Armor Penetration became the mathematically "right" stat to stack offensively, and we needed to curb both of those stats at roughly the same value, so we added Armor Penetration Depression to the stat. However with the changes to how Tenacity interacts with Defense and AC in the math, this may no longer be required, so we are monitoring it carefully to see if we can scale it back, or remove Armor Penetration Depression all together.
Finally, about matchmaking. We have people who have been working on an improved matchmaking system for a while now and we are hoping to get it out to you guys as soon as we can, but that is beyond the scope of this thread. However the context of it is important in that as I stated above, Tenacity is aimed at teams of roughly equal skill and gear, and was not intended to make low end players competitive with high end players.
Hopefully that clears up a lot of the questions!
Chris "Gentleman_Crush" Meyer
EDIT: For those looking to test, myself and a handful of other devs are on preview right now (11:20 AM PST) and will probably be on this afternoon as well (5pm or so PST)
What I would like is for the devs to be on at 5pm PST as stated, the players would like to put together a premade of actual good players for the devs to go against so they can see first hand what we are seeing, the huge problems that this new system is causing.
Hey guys, lots of feedback that is operating on a series of assumptions, so I wanted to step in and clarify some of the underlying logic behind these changes.
First and foremost, Tenacity is *not* designed to make lower geared players feel more competitive with high end kitted out players. While it will just by its very existence adjust how long it takes for them to get beaten, they should still get beaten every time. Tenacity however is designed to address a problem that we identified with PVP among players of similar skill. This problem is that PVP was often very binary. You either were fighting someone who would effectively vaporize you before you could respond if you didn't see them coming, or the person who managed to fire first won a vast majority of those encounters (*cough*Han Solo*cough*). While this isn't necessarily a bad thing, we wanted to introduce more chances for counterplay by giving players a longer time to live when under fire so they could at least get an opportunity to try and swing the fight back in their favor or request reinforcements. We are carefully monitoring how tanky this makes people however as we do not want the game to feel stagnant at higher levels. It's a very careful balancing act and that is why we have the stat on the Test Shard right now, and Devs are regularly jumping in to play it.
Second, we have heard what people are saying about wanting more gear options, so we are in the process of making more PVP pieces of gear that provide a wider array of stat allocations for players to use. These new sets will exist at T1, T2, and beyond. However they will all use the existing PVP set bonuses.
Third, about how many things Tenacity effects. This is actually not our first iteration of this stat. During its initial incarnation it interacted with the math in a very different way, and was originally was only base additional resistance. Player critical hits were still a rampant problem however and Crit became the go to offensive stat in all cases, so we needed to reign that in. When we added the Critical Hit resistance we fundamentally shifted the stat values in PVP unintentionally. Therefore Armor Penetration became the mathematically "right" stat to stack offensively, and we needed to curb both of those stats at roughly the same value, so we added Armor Penetration Depression to the stat. However with the changes to how Tenacity interacts with Defense and AC in the math, this may no longer be required, so we are monitoring it carefully to see if we can scale it back, or remove Armor Penetration Depression all together.
Finally, about matchmaking. We have people who have been working on an improved matchmaking system for a while now and we are hoping to get it out to you guys as soon as we can, but that is beyond the scope of this thread. However the context of it is important in that as I stated above, Tenacity is aimed at teams of roughly equal skill and gear, and was not intended to make low end players competitive with high end players.
Hopefully that clears up a lot of the questions!
Chris "Gentleman_Crush" Meyer
EDIT: For those looking to test, myself and a handful of other devs are on preview right now (11:20 AM PST) and will probably be on this afternoon as well (5pm or so PST)
@NW Devs, before you guys make any changes to the PvP system, I pressure you to have a 5v5 with a Well known PvP guild.
I tell you this because I know for a fact that if these changes go live, no one in my guilds A-team party would ever die unless focused by all 5 other players at once. If this were to be necessesary in order to kill 1 person, we will simply outcap the other nodes. On the flip side, if the other team is just as good the match would stalemate forever
In addition to these facts I want to touch on your reasons for tenacity
I love the idea of tenacity itself, but I think it needs to be toned back a lot.
I run through maybe 40 matches of PVP a day, and I rarely encounter any people getting "Vaporized" as you mentioned. the only two classes capable of being able to down a player in 1 rotation is GWF (which you guys made WAY too OP with the last patch) and a VERY well played cw. But regardless of this ability, the only people getting 1 rotationed are new lvl 60's with a 5k gear score or a completely PvE Specced toon with 22k HP.
People with equal gear score do not 1 rotation or even come close to 1 shotting anyone
Addressing the issue of GWF
It's damage is way to much for the defensive abilities it can posses. Ever sense beta we have been joking about how the guy with the two handed sword is more tanky then the guy with the shield and vise versa with damage. But every since iron vanguard gave a GWF the ability to mark their own targets, their damage sky rocketed.
I believe its UN-educated players who maybe pvp 5 times (to fill their dailies) who get blown up by REAL pvpiers that are making all the "complaints" you guys are receiving. In a real 5v5 PM People rarely die as it is. Tenacity would personally make my class and build legitimately Immortal
So go ahead, Buff me
IF you guys are truly going to be on the test shard at 5 PST, say the word and our guild will be ready to have a 5v5 brawl with your dev team to show you how much harm the tenacity patch would bring.
And Please feel free to join the PvP communities Chat Channel
endgame (by that I mean high gear score Guild v Guild premades ) are already very defensive matches. 1v1 battles on nodes are already very long as the players have the skill and gear to make them survive. Also, tenacity doesn't help or solve the problem of GWFs and DCs needing teams of players to kill them.
In the current node system where contesting is all that matters, it makes GWFs in particular by far the most powerful and most important pvp class. We arnt saying make them mush either (after all they are tanks), but instead make it somewhat fair. The healing depression stat doesn't do anything to fix the problem since defensive chars get the most out of the additional defensive stats so its almost like a wash. It still feels like your fighting a raid boss....
Comments
I agree. Especially that tenacity is not needed in domination PVP as it stands now. Again after really thinking about what makes current domination fun and potentially looking at adding in other sources/games/maps of pvp... It really seems to me the single factor that makes those cheese builds work is the current domination game.
When you remove "Contesting" and make it a flat your points tick or theirs do. Not only does it put much more urgency into each moment in the game, it also effectively speeds up EVERY game and ontop of that, removes a MAJOR part of the cheese that is unkillable 1v1 builds.
If you remove contesting, the perma TR or the Sentinel regen builds lose ALOT of their power.
Compare current domination:
When an opposing team controls their home node, right now the MOST effective thing to do is take an "unkillable" 1v1 class like a Tutle GF, Regen Senti, Perma TR and throw them on the node effectively contesting it for quite a while.
Remove contesting and now that entire strategy is gone. You could send almost any class to ensure the node isnt capped, and the entire time the low damage/high survivability classes TRY and cap the node or TRY and contest you, your team gets points.
What you MIGHT end up seeing is:
TWO classes going to clear a node, THEN a Senti/Perma stays behind to ensure THEY keep the node, but it would really really easy to send a CW/GF to prone lock a GWF down, while they "cap" the node back, and effectively dont have to kill the GWF to get their points back.
This type of gameplay seems like it would not only take much more skill to win, games would be faster, more fun, more adrenaline and faster paced.
THIS type of gameplay lends itself MORE towards tenacity enabling characters to try and stack more damage in order to remove and capture nodes.
Does the current tenacity work even in this type of gameplay? I dont think so, I STILL hold its TOO MUCH, but removing contesting NOW ads whole new strategy to the game that wasnt there before.
AS far as the "Healing Depression"
Honestly.... Make this a PVP Enchant... Purchased via "Glory" like the current Raven artifact. The enchant starts at Normal and could easily do something LIKE this:
"Healing Depression Enchantment"
-Strike your foe with an additional 4.4% of weapon damage as necrotic damage. Additionally your target receives Healing Depression for 10 seconds, reducing the effectiveness of healing by 20% on your target. Lasts 10 seconds. (Targets can only be depressed once every 20 seconds).
"Greater Healing Depression Enchantment"
-Strike your foe with an additional 7% of weapon damage as necrotic damage. Additionally your target receives Healing Depression for 10 seconds, reducing the effectiveness of healing by 30% on your target. Lasts 10 seconds. (Targets can only be depressed once every 20 seconds).
"Perfect Healing Depression Enchantment"
-Strike your foe with an additional 8.8% of weapon damage as necrotic damage. Additionally your target receives Healing Depression for 10 seconds, reducing the effectiveness of healing by 40% on your target. Lasts 10 seconds. (Targets can only be depressed once every 20 seconds).
It combines the effects of many enchants, seems fairly balanced and not TOO op in the sense that targets can only receive this debuff once every 20 seconds so it removes the effectiveness of stacking. NOW I could see this playing into a TEAM game VERY effectively in that it would really benefit the team to have ONE person using this enchant... Its not TOO op, but also not SO amazing it replaces other enchants....
Suggestion :
*Remove 10% Reduced Critical Strike Damage
*ADD more 10% Increased Damage Resistance total 20 % dmr and any build and enchat& build will hurt whit this not - just one .(same result for every one for p.vorpal critt build too)
*Also y can replace -10 % armor pen to 10% Increased Damage Resistance to total 30% (same result for every one for armor penetration build too)
I think thats the point, is the best build in the game is the vorpal because its so strong. Its adding more damage to already the highest hitting abilities...
I am in favor of hurting critical builds SOME but I dont think crit damage is the way to do it, I think if resilience reduces crit % and also armor pen % that would work fine...
Again all of this should NOT be additive... but multiplicative.
so again, if you have 900 tenacity, it reduces crit % and ARP by 25%.
What this means is a person with 50% crit and 25% ARP are affected like this:
50% reduced by 25% = 37.5% crit chance
25% reduced by 25% = 18.75%
Versus NOW if it were a FLAT 10% chance:
50% reduced to 40% CRIT
25% reduced to 15% ARP
The multiple affect is what is NEEDED.
Are you really trying to make all tank builds unkillable?
A much better approach to all this would be simply to adjust all the relevant stats diminishing returns in pvp.
None of these ideas even pertain to pvps biggest problem, which is undergeared and inexperienced pugs vs experienced veterans and premades. No amount of stat adjustment or introduction of new stats will fix that, only matchmaking will.
If you remove contesting, "tank" builds will be MUCH less effective. If you add other game types like arena slayer tank builds lose effectiveness as well...
If you scroll up youll see me say this:
"1) Remove Contesting to existing domination.
2) Make a 1 "Node" KOTH game.
3) Make a "Deathmatch" type game.
4) Make a CTF game.
5) Give us PVP ranking and THEN matchmaking based on ranking - this will balance pvp matchups"
That is the core fix to pvp, pvp rank and matchmaking... The tenacity thing wont do it by itself, but it seems they are moving forward with tenacity... ANY type of +DR that you want to add to the tank builds will make them more unkillable, and the only way to adjust PVP "domination" for that is to remove contesting...
Remove the thing in pvp that makes unkillable zero damage builds strong... and people wont play like that...
As far as tenacity. Too much benefits in it.
Im on the edge of considering it would be alright as armor enchants, while healing depression could be weapon enchants. (since they in a way cancel each other out at least for the tanky builds) but Im not even that confident about that completely.
In anycase, before even thinking of doing anything to change how pvp is played currently, proper matchmaking needs to happen.
Perma stealth and semi perma stealth TRs are entirely untouchable and not even affected by the healing debuff since they stay hidden most of the time, further the small window that the other classes/specs had before to actually kill them doesn't mean much anymore as nobody could even possibly hope to produce enough damage in such a short time period anymore. GF is extremely annoying, perhaps the control resistance from tenacity is bugged but these guys ping pong with a newfound vigour. GWFs have laughable damage and are currently just a massive moving sponge sucking up all the damage and not really being able to kill or even damage anything. The CWs game felt very fluid but with the new defences I found it easier to survive WHILE killing people since the damage is still comparatively normal(yes, its reduced but at least I can actually see my enemies HPs fading). DC is a complete joke, it has no use in pvp and I becomes a total dead weight for any team they are on. Hunter still relies heavily on bugged vines and perhaps it is just me but they seemed even more bugged, since they are ranged killing people did become a tad easier with the extra defences. Tanky TR builds can literally facetank, even better than sentinel GWFs.
Or, instead of completely changing all of the existing game mechanics, render builds and gear inviable, they could just... pit evenly matched teams against each other?
The biggest issue with Tenacity, as proposed, is that it will distance PvE vs PvP players even further.
As a means to balance the mechanics for PvP it's not a bad idea, I feel it should be more class based rather than universal de/buffs, but under no circumstances should it be tied to PvP gear because it will funnel people into haves and have nots when it comes to gear specifically for PvP.
Everybody should have these effects. Period.
PvPers already have an edge by choosing powers and feats specifically to PvP with. They don't need gear advantages too.
Unless I am way off Tenecity is meant to be a means to balance some aspects which were out of line. It's not balancing if it isn't across the board equally...
I know exactly what you're trying to say. the thing about trying to apply this equally through all classes, is that either globally or individually, it would not be equal no matter what because of classes and then the different builds for possible for those classes.
A good example would be GWF. Alot of people talk about GWF's being immortal. But that only applies to Sentinel built GWFs. If they apply this subject matter in regards to Sentinel GWF's then every NON- Sentinel GWF will suffer and just be cannon fodder. If they apply everyone the same amount as GWF, this will benefit non sentinel GWF's but then Sentinel built GWF's will be godly. Where on the other end of the spectrum, if they give everyone more tenacity, and GWF's less. Sentinels will be alright, where GWF's that are non sentinel will just be, once again cannon fodder.
By all accounts, this tenacity will just bottle neck everything, from builds, to gear to how matches are played, and as you said, it will distance not just pve and pvp people, but even the regular pvp people.
And to be honest, the only advantages pvpers have, is premades and actual pvp experience.
If you know what you're doing, you can go into pvp with all sorts of powers and feats, even if specifically set for pve and still do well. Its not about the powers and feats you have, its about what you do with them.
the gear is a small thing, but a big problem due to how matches are set up, it then becomes a big problem. where people that just reaches 60 who probably have some blues with about 6-7k Gearscore against people that have 13k+ gearscores.
If they pvp'd anytime before 60. When they get in, they should and will know what to do. The problem lies is that matching up these people is the same as matching up level 30 people to fight level 50 people. In all regards all pvp before 60 is balanced, but at 60 it gets frustrated, this is the reason why. The gear gap is so far that its like fighting people 10's of levels higher than you. level 60 pvp needs subdivisions first and foremost.
tenacity wont solve a thing and will infact cause more problems than it supposedly fixes. The core pvp experience is fine, it just needs adjustments, adding this completely changes the core pvp experience and actually makes it less enjoyable for everyone for the reasons stated many times by others and the ones I highlighted above.
Edit:
Also the reason the enchantments thing is brought up, is a suggestion of compromise because they are probably likely to push this tenacity thing out anyway. Just like refinement change for enchants. Thats how I feel. Im doubting they would scrap this whole tenacity thing, for how much I would want and wish they do.
My characters are built for PvE.
I couldn't give a rats behind about PvP because it's the vast minority of my time.
My builds have zero focus on PvP powers and feats and are therefore far weaker. That's not arguable. I could very easily respec and double the PvP potential of every one of my characters by switching to focus on aspects which aid more in PvP than in PvE but as I said I am a PvE player who happens to PvP occasionally and that is how my characters will remain.
However that was a side note.
I want Tenacity to be class based because not every class is strong and weak in the same areas.
The perfect example is how clerics do not need further healing debuffs placed on them while other classes, such as the GWF, arguably do. It just doesn't make sense to apply flat debuffs to all classes as it won't improve balance in PvP.
But even that was a side note.
The point I made was that there is no justification to applying Tenacity if not every character gets it. Players which have Tenacity through PvP sets are far stronger than those who do not. It's the exact opposite of balancing.
Every person who joins PvP should get buffs and debuffs innately or it should be applied to every single armor in the game based on item tiers. If it is only for specific PvP armor it will create vast power differences between people who live to PvP, people who do both and people who couldn't give a rat's behind about PvP.
If the goal is to balance aspects of PvP then it shouldn't be designed in a way which benefits only players who invest into PvP.
And if Tenacity wasn't designed to balance PvP I don't see a purpose to its existence.
I *might* get a set of armor specifically to PvP in and throw decent enchantments in it.
I *will not* change enchantments in my main armor every time I decide to switch between PvE and PvP. Far too expensive even with it now being a gold cost.
Now having worked on my own Neverwinter Persistent World...
You don't spend time on something and then trash the whole idea because some people dislike it.
There is NOTHING wrong with Tenacity if it is done correctly with the mindset of balancing issues with PvP. And if you really think PvP is balanced then IDK what PvP you have been playing because it most certainly wasn't in Neverwinter. Matchmaking is the big kahuna but the classes are just not balanced for PvP.
Neverwinter's PvP right now is like a Western Duel. Whoever hits first, especially with CC, tends to win. Think of the match-up between a Control Wizard and a Rogue. If the CW CC's the rogue first the rogue dies. If the CW doesn't CC the rogue first the CW dies. Horrible.
Imagine if Battlefield had every fight being one shot kills. Whoever fires first wins. That's what Neverwinter is at now and that is what Tenacity will reduce.
And before you say it balances out, no. There isn't a PvP game in the world which balances like that. One hit kills can happen but they aren't the norm and that has to be fixed in Neverwinter.
But these changes have to be applied to every person in PvP regardless of gear or enchantments. If some people have the gear and some people don't there's a huge power gap created and that is unacceptable.
It can't be PvP Gear Only. It can't be an enchantment. It can't be excluded on any armor pieces.
Ideally it shouldn't even be a stackable stat.
It should be a balancing factor within PvP itself.
What makes you think you have any idea what you are talking about if you do not PvP?
This is exactly the problem. Inexperienced people crying because they were beaten, mercilessly, in a match. There are already several defensive stats in the game.
Practice and experience will make you better. Tenacity will only prolong your death.
Jeffrina Jones, GWF
Jeffrodo, CW
Jeffrogue, Rog
Jelfro, GF
Jeffrogolas Do'Urden, HR
Jeffrodo Jaggins, SW
GG set is the easiest armor set in the game to obtain. It's not depending on RNG, you just have to play GG. Compare that to tens and tens of T2 runs to get that elusive set piece.
What is bad here, from my 50/50% PvE/PvPer perspective, is the need for 2 armor/weapon sets, and the huge issue with gold because of our needs to swap enchants each time we go from PvP to PvE. It basically amounts to 12.5 Gold each swap (Armor: def/armor slot, weapon/offhand: 2 offensive slots/wep enh slot-->5 slots=12.5 Gold/pop).
Now... if they will add tenacity to all sets, they will most probably nerf the other stats on them. I don't want that for sure.
All in all, your post basically says that people that have gear are advantaged against people that don't have it. Dunno what to say, but all MMOs work like this, to keep you playing. The only true solution to this issue would be matchmaking.
I see what Tenacity is trying to do, and I applaud the attempt.. however, I fear that the approach is flawed.
I suppose it's trying to address two issues.. The first is that damage output for PvE is balanced for the PvE encounters, where targets have a lot of HP. Obviously, someone who is used to 50k at-wills in PvE can't be allowed to do that in PvP. This is a common problem in MMOs, which is why stats like "tenacity" or "resilience" exist, primarily to make PvP crits lower. There is nothing wrong with that.
First, right now, tenacity affects too many stats. Sure, you can adjust the coefficients for each stat, but still, it feels like a bit of a sawn-off shotgun.
It seems to be trying to level the playing field- because it's no fun getting steamed. However, the reason that people are getting steamrolled is because of massive disparities of gear, skill and experience. No matter the class (I have four, at last count), they all sucked and died a lot in PvP at first, they all lasted longer as my gear got better, and then as I learned to play a little, I was more successful.
For example, my Control Wizard is squishy, really squishy. Until I improved my gear, I could get regularly one-shotted. No big deal, them's the breaks. However, the biggest factor in victory or defeat is skill. Until I learned to kite and control melee, I was a free kill. Once I did, I stood a chance. When I am in practise, I will usually beat bad players, and lose to players who are better than me, given rough gear parity. This is as it should be. I don't expect to rock up in 9k GS and face tank a half-orc in armour and a giant sword, as a CW in a dress.
No, I feel like tenacity is (currently) an attempt to compensate for the lack of even a behind the scenes match-making. Some other games attempt to have some kills/points based ranking, and bracket you (where possible) with broadly similar players. It's not perfect, but it helps to keep things fun. Obviously when not many players are in the queue, it mixes things up a bit, but it's generally an excellent way to keep things interesting.
Another approach (which isn't mutually exclusive with ranking/bracketting) is to use standardised gear during PvP, to avoid the steamroller effect. I am guessing that an F2P ("P2W") game is unlikely to adopt this approach, as obviously, they want people to experience the massive resource pinch of trying to maintain a second set of enchants.
Anyway, right now, PvP with tenacity in its current state feels feeble and boring. The stat overreaches itself. I would be happy to see it dialled back in scope to affect damage output disparities between PvP and PvE only (maybe reducing crit severity). This is an important aim, as right now, the time to kill can be too low, making some fights feel too shallow/fast. It's a balancing act though, it needs dialling back to find the "sweet spot" where people can still kill each other and victories can still feel conclusive, while still being an improvement on the status quo.
However, to try and make it a "welfare stat" to compensate for gear or practise will reduce the appeal of PvP in general. I would suggest that the devs measure twice and cut once- and make the stat relatively weak, making small changes to it with care. Major changes cause "chasing the needle", a downward spiral of overcorrection (think helicopter pilots, not "Trainspotting" ). If the devs want to make PvP less hostile to new players, the best approach is improvements to matchmaking, really.
While pvp needs balanced, I disagree it needs longer fights. Anyone decently geared can live through at least 1 round of encounters (1v1).
They had attempted to add resilience etc. into champions online. The attempt failed miserably and the entire "project" got scrapped. I wonder how/why such an awfully terrible feature made it to the next game (NW), at all.
I really hope NW is not going to get crippled, the same way as CO is.
Edit single character stats/features if a nerf/amp is needed. Adding a single stat is the lazy way.
Perhaps because Sentinel GWFs are OP and need to be balanced. I personally find it ridiculous, I have TWO GFs and TWO GWFs.
On my GF I have 5k defense and my DR is just around 50%. On my GWF I have LESS than 3k defense, but my total DR is something around 56%
So why is it, my Sent can get MORE DR (about 10% more) with WAY less defense stat (about HALF the defense stat).
Its because the last Feat in the Sent tree is a HUGE DR buff that IMO needs to get toned down. Then youll see other builds become viable as well, especially with tenacity.
ALL of this "unkillable" talk ONLY pertains to PVP when you have contesting nodes involved. Honestly I think players SHOULD be able to spec characters that way, but I also think that in most situations they may or may not be ideal. THe big issue right now is that PVP Domination is played around contesting nodes.
You take the MOST unkillable characters and stick them on nodes to contest/defend them. This is ALL why the BEST builds revolve around high hp/dr/regen etc....
IF they removed contesting from PVP, so it wouldnt matter if a Sent stood on the far point to "contest" it, it would still tick points for the team that held the node, you would see FAR less of that type of play in PVP and you might see alot more usefulness out of tenacity since its a nice way to get good DR while not having to spec for tankiness.
Also the healing depression is flat out a bad idea to have across the board. BUT! I could see it working very well as a PVP focused enchant that was able to be bought with Glory. Thats the idea is its easy to get for everyone willing to put in the time.
Tenacity as an enchant? No. Healing depression? Sure!
Also again, some of the issue with PVP as well is the massive BURST spikes people can do via Vorpal+Crits. I dont mind Tenacity toning that down a bit but instead of a flat damage nerf, I think all that needs to happen is make it LESS likely to happen and that accomplishes the same thing.
I posted before about tencity reducing a PERCENTAGE of crit chance as well as a percentage of ARP. I still think this idea would work really well. Its not a big DR boost its just something that reduces the burst damage for all builds.
All in all, I would really like them to have an announcement surrounding WHY they went this route and whats up coming for Mod 3 PVP wise so we can give feedback around this stat and that...
I used to run 3k regen in PVP came out
Im running 4k recovery now, and the new update is aqctualy quite a good pump up to GF's after the whole GWF mess up
Despite CC resist from tenacity, i still think right now CC is the way to go to kill things without loosing tankyness to dmg.
Any chance that the game will start recognizing miliseconds in near future? There is no difference between 5,1 5,5 and 5,9 sec CD its all 6 sec even tho description states that CD is at a fraction value.
Will they be placed only on new sets from the time of the patch release, or will older sets purchased before be 'grandfathered' in?
The affected items will be the T1 PvP sets bought for glory in the Trade of Blades and the T2 Gauntylgrym sets.
On preview, existing equipment is altered.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
First and foremost, Tenacity is *not* designed to make lower geared players feel more competitive with high end kitted out players. While it will just by its very existence adjust how long it takes for them to get beaten, they should still get beaten every time. Tenacity however is designed to address a problem that we identified with PVP among players of similar skill. This problem is that PVP was often very binary. You either were fighting someone who would effectively vaporize you before you could respond if you didn't see them coming, or the person who managed to fire first won a vast majority of those encounters (*cough*Han Solo*cough*). While this isn't necessarily a bad thing, we wanted to introduce more chances for counterplay by giving players a longer time to live when under fire so they could at least get an opportunity to try and swing the fight back in their favor or request reinforcements. We are carefully monitoring how tanky this makes people however as we do not want the game to feel stagnant at higher levels. It's a very careful balancing act and that is why we have the stat on the Test Shard right now, and Devs are regularly jumping in to play it.
Second, we have heard what people are saying about wanting more gear options, so we are in the process of making more PVP pieces of gear that provide a wider array of stat allocations for players to use. These new sets will exist at T1, T2, and beyond. However they will all use the existing PVP set bonuses.
Third, about how many things Tenacity effects. This is actually not our first iteration of this stat. During its initial incarnation it interacted with the math in a very different way, and was originally was only base additional resistance. Player critical hits were still a rampant problem however and Crit became the go to offensive stat in all cases, so we needed to reign that in. When we added the Critical Hit resistance we fundamentally shifted the stat values in PVP unintentionally. Therefore Armor Penetration became the mathematically "right" stat to stack offensively, and we needed to curb both of those stats at roughly the same value, so we added Armor Penetration Depression to the stat. However with the changes to how Tenacity interacts with Defense and AC in the math, this may no longer be required, so we are monitoring it carefully to see if we can scale it back, or remove Armor Penetration Depression all together.
Finally, about matchmaking. We have people who have been working on an improved matchmaking system for a while now and we are hoping to get it out to you guys as soon as we can, but that is beyond the scope of this thread. However the context of it is important in that as I stated above, Tenacity is aimed at teams of roughly equal skill and gear, and was not intended to make low end players competitive with high end players.
Hopefully that clears up a lot of the questions!
Chris "Gentleman_Crush" Meyer
EDIT: For those looking to test, myself and a handful of other devs are on preview right now (11:20 AM PST) and will probably be on this afternoon as well (5pm or so PST)
lots of good info here have you considered that because the effects of tenacity affect players of different gear scores in different ways that if matchmaking were implemented before 10 acity that the effects of tenacity could be variable depending on gear score / rank bracket also when you say the sets will have the same bonuses do you mean for instance that every Guardian fighter set will have plus 25 percent shield meter and plus 10 percent Run
Thanks and sorry for bad punctuation on phone
I only use part of the pvp gear myself for many of my characters, simply because the range of stats are too wide for my playstyle on those characters. A few of my characters have some focused stats, so I have to use other kinds of gear for that.
Its still quite restrictive to people's builds and playstyles that arent cookie cutter. Unless you guys are making about 12 different kinds of sets for each class for each tier.
My question why shoud i buy agan 18000 zen ?(cost of perfect vorpal enchant)
18000 zen = 180 euro if y buy 21200 zen
How much money i need to spend agan if somone say Power stat is too powerful or recovery or defense ?
My most problem is i love this game but realy i respecced regeared m GF like 10 times then i roll to gwf.
Now agan i spend many euros into my GWF and was for nothing?
What do y think shoud i do ?
(and before somone want to troll i rolled to GWF not beacuse he is now the beast on pvp i rolled cuz i like stupid figthers )
Thanks, it's all we ask, if testers and devs keep communicating to each other and the purpose behind changes is clear, I'm sure the end product will be awesome.
Why cant we have +30% Dmr so we dont need agan respec and new enchants+gear.
What I would like is for the devs to be on at 5pm PST as stated, the players would like to put together a premade of actual good players for the devs to go against so they can see first hand what we are seeing, the huge problems that this new system is causing.
@NW Devs, before you guys make any changes to the PvP system, I pressure you to have a 5v5 with a Well known PvP guild.
I tell you this because I know for a fact that if these changes go live, no one in my guilds A-team party would ever die unless focused by all 5 other players at once. If this were to be necessesary in order to kill 1 person, we will simply outcap the other nodes. On the flip side, if the other team is just as good the match would stalemate forever
In addition to these facts I want to touch on your reasons for tenacity
I love the idea of tenacity itself, but I think it needs to be toned back a lot.
I run through maybe 40 matches of PVP a day, and I rarely encounter any people getting "Vaporized" as you mentioned. the only two classes capable of being able to down a player in 1 rotation is GWF (which you guys made WAY too OP with the last patch) and a VERY well played cw. But regardless of this ability, the only people getting 1 rotationed are new lvl 60's with a 5k gear score or a completely PvE Specced toon with 22k HP.
People with equal gear score do not 1 rotation or even come close to 1 shotting anyone
Addressing the issue of GWF
It's damage is way to much for the defensive abilities it can posses. Ever sense beta we have been joking about how the guy with the two handed sword is more tanky then the guy with the shield and vise versa with damage. But every since iron vanguard gave a GWF the ability to mark their own targets, their damage sky rocketed.
I believe its UN-educated players who maybe pvp 5 times (to fill their dailies) who get blown up by REAL pvpiers that are making all the "complaints" you guys are receiving. In a real 5v5 PM People rarely die as it is. Tenacity would personally make my class and build legitimately Immortal
So go ahead, Buff me
IF you guys are truly going to be on the test shard at 5 PST, say the word and our guild will be ready to have a 5v5 brawl with your dev team to show you how much harm the tenacity patch would bring.
And Please feel free to join the PvP communities Chat Channel
/PMvsPM
-Sicarius@Dersidius
Chocolate Stand
In the current node system where contesting is all that matters, it makes GWFs in particular by far the most powerful and most important pvp class. We arnt saying make them mush either (after all they are tanks), but instead make it somewhat fair. The healing depression stat doesn't do anything to fix the problem since defensive chars get the most out of the additional defensive stats so its almost like a wash. It still feels like your fighting a raid boss....