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Hyenas@zokir - Essence of Aggression
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It's -27.7%
;P
Hyenas@zokir - Essence of Aggression
How do you deal with the other similarly geared Bilethorn rogues. I guess that the Poison ticks will give you a slight disadvantage. Any tips on how to fight them?
Thanks.
Overall, this is a nice guide, Zokir. Thanks for posting. We're in dire need of more guides that detail the current available and effective play styles like this in the forum.
But I guess that this is all about a 1v1. Just happens that in PMsvsPMs high damage TRs are called to content nodes from other TRs or GWFs...and that's the reason I am asking.
With this build you wouldn't 1v1 a TR with bilethorn and more stealth (from the feat) and higher recovery (for shorter cooldowns.) The reason most TRs build with the higher stealth and more recovery these days is that even though they may not seem permastealth, it's actually more ridiculous than that. On my TR I can be in stealth or ITC 100% of the time. Seems like hacks against pug groups and makes you practically invincible (even in premades, especially combined with high life and regen,) while still leaving you with a damage encounter, Impact Shot. In premades you can still do good damage and double as a point holder, something Hyenas build cannot do (the point holder part, obviously she will do more damage.) Hers is more for the rotating / killing fast teams.
That lashing blade is important though. Was on my gwf last night vs either the op or someone else from their guild, can't remember the player name just the guild name. That lashing blade was the main thing I feared as it could burst me down fast even from within unstoppable. Most the bilethorn rogues I've fought, if they managed to kill me, took forever to do so.
Also, I start to see more people speccing into combat TR, which is quite bad for TRs in general. Actually spamming Fox Shift until you hit the stealthed rogue (for some reason it won't go into CD until it connects), feels like cheating. For instance if you get hit by a G. or P.Vorpal Combat HR while you are stealthed you are pretty much dead or Soulforging/Raven.
Any thought on that?
Well, it depends. I have fought a lot of P.Vorpal HR's and in hand to hand combat while they are spamming Foxshift just DuelistFlurry them to death.It also helps to be above 30k hp.
It's still viable for people who have lower ranked enchants. TRs will pretty much always do a high amount of damage just because of the class; I just like to maximize potential for premade PvP matches.
Dealing with Bilethorn rogues can be tricky as this type of build, but the most important thing for anyone (any class, any build) fighting a Bilethorn TR is to avoid their Duelist's Flurrys. Timing is key- save your dodges and your ITC for the right times.
This build can hold points if necessary, but of course it won't be as effective as some of the other TRs.
As Stox stated, my main role in premade PvP is to clear opponents at 2 and help on the outlying points once that is clear.
Against sents I use SS, LB, and ITC. Staying away from knockdowns is vital due to the crazy amount of damage even sent gwfs can do atm. Begin with a LB from stealth- that should get rid of at least 1/3 of their HP, usually about half. Make sure you come at them from the side or around the back. You don't want them to know your location when they use their frontline surge. If they haven't used their knockdowns yet, immediately use an ITC to avoid those and use flurry while in ITC. Be careful with Shadow Strike- idk how many occasions I've timed this poorly and been knocked down while I'm using it. But the extra stealth is nice to kite while they are in unstoppable. Just keep damaging with LB and Duelist Flurry's from stealth or ITC.
The ridiculously strong & tanky sents will be very tough to kill with this build. The best thing you can do against them is kite until a teammate can arrive, unless it's a preset 1v1, then good luck to you :P
Hyenas@zokir - Essence of Aggression
Let's look at this with Hyena's crit chance, 41.1%. That means 58.9% are not crits, so 20.615% of the time you will proc Nimble Blade, which will do 20% more damage on these hits. Let's take an average spread of 100,000 damage and assume the crits/non crits will be the exact percentages above. i.e.the crits will be 41,100 damage * crit severity (assuming max of 265 including pvorp and feats) = 108,915, and the other 58,900 will be split, 38,285 damage for non-nimble blade, and 20,615*1.2 = 24,738 for nimble blade procs.
So what do we have here for an overall increase?
Without nimble blade we would have 108,915+58,900=167,815
With nimble blade we have 108,915+38,285+24,738= 171,938
So a 2.46% increase.
Now what are the other options here?
Critical Teamwork - 5% chance to crit for you and your party
Another option is drop deadly momentum, so let's look at both.
5% more chance to crit would give using the same base 100k example above, 46,100*2.65 or 122,165 + 53,900 damage from non crits = 176,065. This actually is a more effective feat than nimble, and remember this is your damage, increased by 4.92% hyenas, your teammates also get the 5% crit so it truly is a far more effective feat.
Deadly Momentum is a little more difficult to calculate, but I already know how this will turn out so let's assume you have 100% uptime on this extra severity. This time since we should have decided to go with critical teamwork, we'll use the numbers there as now we're trying to decide between deadly momentum and nimble blade for damage. 46,100*2.5 = 115,250 + 53,900 = 169,150. So this would be 4.1% damage increase assuming 100% uptime on this. How often are you landing flurry and gaining this advantage? If it is less than 50% of the time you are in combat (which I think most TRs would agree that it is,) then you are better served by having nimble blade for damage than deadly momentum.
I've never been one to actually calculate out the bonuses for comparison.
So it looks like I should replace Nimble Blade with Critical Teamwork.
Thanks for that, Stox
Hyenas@zokir - Essence of Aggression
I was actually suggesting to keep nimble and drop deadly momentum but you're welcome. Critical teamwork is a huge boost for you and your party.
Yeah I'd been wanting to work Critical Teamwork in there.
It seems the difference between Nimble Blade and Deadly Momentum is slight. I think with all the Duelists used in PvE, I would better benefit from the Deadly Momentum since I do occasionally PvE. Would that make sense?
Hyenas@zokir - Essence of Aggression
Yep, absolutely. Deadly Momentum would be more damage for PVE, Nimble Blade more for PVP. It's a slight difference either way.
As stox brilliantly displayed the difference is very minute. If you also plan to do PVE with your TR on a more or less regular basis, I'd pick DM over NB. But then again you won't be left far behind dps wise if you pick NB over DM I'd say.
As for Speed Swindle vs DM/NB: I'm sure it's nice to have, but in what occasions do you really need that additional speed difference? I've been thinkin back and forth but I have a hard time thinking of a scenario where I'd really benefit from it. For what occasions do you find it to be superior?
Hyenas@zokir - Essence of Aggression
But I dont think a "glass cannon" TR would work for any kind of high level pvp, premades or 1v1.
As a TR on premades most of the time your job will be stay on your base or backapping by yourself, and that means 1v1 ~ 2v1 all the time, and as a glass cannon TR your chances on winning those battles are very low.
A good TR can backcap and survive better than any other class while still having DPS to kill pretty much everything, if there is something that a "tanky" TR cannot kill(AKA top tier GWF's), a DPS tr is not able to kill as well, the difference is that you will survive way longer and he wont be able to kill you as well.
Meatball - Control Wizard
Criminal Cheater - Hunter Ranger
<Enemy Team> Guild Leader.
Having this type of TR, coordination in a premade PvP has to be a bit different. I understandably will most likely be a second resort for premades behind TRs that can easily hold points. Although I really love doing premades, I'm not willing to completely change the playstyle I've set up for myself throughout my time on the game.
I remember the first premade I ever did- I made the mistake of going into a match with some pretty high-end players without using any type of voice communication. They had me try to hold our point which was just disastrous. I ended up going 3-19 and getting laughed at, and that kinda changed my perspective. I added more HP and regen into my build, which added more survivability. At the moment, I can actually effectively hold points with this build using a SS ITC rotation, but of course not as well as a different type of TR.
If other teammates can be adept at holding the points, then this build does work very well for clearing and holding the middle point. The burst dmg is helpful in quick aid at 1 and 3. It really all depends on the team and the skillsets of the other players, whether this build will be viable in premades or not.
Hyenas@zokir - Essence of Aggression
You mentioned also that your 3,3k+ armorpen equals 27,8% resistance ignored, while only 2,2k armorpen is about 22% so it's a 5,8% dmg increase from 1,1k+ armorpen and that armorpen is partially wasted for most tr/cw also, not worth it imo, when you could slot other stats that help you survive more like recovery, or get the preservation rings and slot more hp. On my tr I have 22,5% armorpen with 0 darks and 35k hp, 2k regen as 18 str 18 dex Half-Orc PvE roll, 2k recovery also. With a full PvP roll like Blacksheep you can get even higher hp and recharge speed because of higher con and int.
I'm sure your build works very well also this is just my take on this
I agree with what both don and keltz0r have stated. The higher int/con builds with a ton of regen and recovery are better point holders and a little more effective in an overall match because it allows for more strategy and rotation. Hyenas TR is the one DCs fear because it will be better / faster at clearing points. Basically for the most part the other style TR can go anywhere and deal with a situation on any point. Hyenas TR works best in mid or on your own point clearing it in a rotation. I.e. Have a CW and TR clear your point, then go 2 (don't let anyone pass to your point) and just try to keep mid and your point clear. If you have more damage and better timing / map positioning than your opponents then her style of TR can definitely shine. She is not all DPS (glass cannon) and has a good amount of defensive stats, it's kind of the mid range TR where she keeps a lot of the damage but has a lot more survivability than the glass cannons. Also gotta agree with keltz0r on the radiants, if you go to the eoa forum I have a spreadsheet and I believe another guy made a calculator off of this Hyenas that shows your "effective hp" based on defense/deflection/hp.
The amount of armor penetration is something I've considered changing. I'd have to do a bit of testing with that before I make up my mind there, but thank you for the suggestion, keltz0r.
*Perhaps I could switch the silverys onto offense slots actually and trade two darks for two radiants. Something to think about..
This build isn't a 100% damage build. It has other aspects to it. I've modeled it around my preferred playstyle in order to maximize my potential. I'm definitely not at a stage where everything is going to be completely perfect, but the build does work very well in a variety of situations. I wouldn't replace it for a perma or a complete defense TR even if those are better because that's just not my character- that's like changing to a whole different class. I do appreciate the comments and the response, though
Hyenas@zokir - Essence of Aggression
Have to disagree here, regen is by far the best stat in pvp, and even though it hits heavy DR after 1,2k or so it's still definitely worth to go for as much as you can, especially when you really don't lose anything from stacking it. If i had 1,1k regen my ticks would be maybe 500-700 lower instead of the 2,2k+ they are now. Quite a bit of survivability loss, for pretty much gaining nothing. As long as you stay below 2,5k regen imo should keep stacking it unless you have to sacrifice something that actually matters.
I agree that Regen is the best PvP stat, but high HP pools are also very very good.
Why settle for lower regen ticks than you potentially could have? 35k hp and 2k regen its even more ticks than 35k hp and 1,1k regen, to me it seems like gimping yourself on purpose 0.o