Because you don't seem to check (and are more than a little condescending)...
The question came about as to how to improve a GF's Tab ability (or change it completely), while others countered by pointing out it would not be good to give up the ability all together as ranged tab has a lot of PvE use (though not much PvP use).
Therefore, I begun mapping out a way to both retain the Tab marking ability, and to make it more beneficial. Does it mimick other abilities in a way? Sure. Is that a logical reason to dismiss the idea? No, absolutely not. By that logic, you should toss Tab Marking in the trash all together because there are already other powers that allow a GF to mark enemies.
If you want to improve on the idea, add to it etc. feel free to toss your ideas around. If you want to be condescending and dismissive for no reason, go ahead and keep it to yourself.
Yes it's an automatical rejection of such an idea that harm existing feats/powers.
And if you read more than my post, you had read what i support.
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twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
edited November 2013
It's not harmful to other powers simply because some of the proposed effects are similar or the same. They could stack, they could alter one another, and it would allow for choices to impact varying builds without being locked into a particular power. Plus, you have the added benefit of both making the GF tab ability more useful overall, and more useful in PvP.
But then, you aren't a developer, so, I don't really care about your opinion. Good day.
It's not harmful to other powers simply because some of the proposed effects are similar or the same. They could stack, they could alter one another, and it would allow for choices to impact varying builds without being locked into a particular power. Plus, you have the added benefit of both making the GF tab ability more useful overall, and more useful in PvP.
But then, you aren't a developer, so, I don't really care about your opinion. Good day.
If a conquerer spec get all debuffs, all buffs and other advantages like damage etc. why we should choose tactician and protector with not all the advantages?
The step from not having it is more than once vs. twice. Every tree have feats that benefit the treeuser itself. And so it must stay.
The tab ability is useful with the perma suggestion. If you don't realize that it's your fail. The tactician have a standing PvP advantage. And the other trees too. But what you simple don't check is, that EVERY change benefit the GWF too, because of the marking! So don't complain about a mechanic, that isn't unique for GF class. The developer produce a false mechanic to get a unique advantage.
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twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
edited November 2013
Changes to Tab marking that I suggested would in no way impact the GWF class because the GWF class does not have the same Tab ability. The suggested change is not to marking in general, but enhancing the Tab marking, making it generate a specific enhanced mark that represents a change in the effects of said mark. If you don't realize that, it's your fail. Get your head out of the box and expand your perspective.
Changes to Tab marking that I suggested would in no way impact the GWF class because the GWF class does not have the same Tab ability. The suggested change is not to marking in general, but enhancing the Tab marking, making it generate a specific enhanced mark that represents a change in the effects of said mark. If you don't realize that, it's your fail. Get your head out of the box and expand your perspective.
You don't check it. Enforced Threat, Threating Rush and Mark Utility share the same Mark debuff! And what the GWF have? Threating Rush! Next they will implement it to WMS, the other Paragon of GWF!
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twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
You don't check it. Enforced Threat, Threating Rush and Mark Utility share the same Mark debuff! And what the GWF have? Threating Rush! Next they will implement it to WMS, the other Paragon of GWF!
You still don't get it. I'm talking about CHANGING THE TAB MARK ABILITY OF THE GF. This would constitute a change behind the scenes in how it works, including being able to differentiate between the normal (current) mark and the enhanced mark I provided in my idea. The GWF WOULD NEVER have access to this advanced mark because they don't have the same Tab ability. YOU "don't check it". This would present zero change to the GWF and the way the current marks work. It could provide some synergies, but it wouldn't have to.
Read, think and comprehend instead of just jumping on someone's idea to prove how smart you think you are.
You still don't get it. I'm talking about CHANGING THE TAB MARK ABILITY OF THE GF. This would constitute a change behind the scenes in how it works, including being able to differentiate between the normal (current) mark and the enhanced mark I provided in my idea. The GWF WOULD NEVER have access to this advanced mark because they don't have the same Tab ability. YOU "don't check it". This would present zero change to the GWF and the way the current marks work. It could provide some synergies, but it wouldn't have to.
Read, think and comprehend instead of just jumping on someone's idea to prove how smart you think you are.
You mean that ET and mark appear 2 different marks? That would change a lot. But i stay with my meaning: No damage reduce for mark because feats already do this. Second it grant already additional damage.
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twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
edited November 2013
Like I stated earlier, they could make it so the feats stack with it's innate (new) ability, or that using those feats in conjunction with the new mark type would alter the effect, maybe extend the damage reduction time frame instead of stacking. The point is, to make the new mark slightly more useful in both PvE AND PvP, while not removing it's current functionality.
You don't check it. Enforced Threat, Threating Rush and Mark Utility share the same Mark debuff! And what the GWF have? Threating Rush! Next they will implement it to WMS, the other Paragon of GWF!
A change to to WMS would only affect the Guardians:
So chances are good that in the future the shared paragons will diverge a bit more than they do now to better fit the class that is using them. Will not happen for this upcoming patch however..
Though regards to dungeoning it's been my impression that many guardians do not use Tab to mark multiple targets, but instead rely on Threatening rush when quick Mark application is desired. Since the Swordmaster guardian loses that skill, it's likely that one of the divergent Paragon aspects would be Weapon Master Strike gaining Mark for Guardians.
A change to to WMS would only affect the Guardians:
What you quote don't fit the point of mark will only be viable for guardians only. What lord gallen stated is that paragon path will include in future more than only 3 class features, 1 daily and 1 encounter as it do now.
You see that the merged Threating Rush give mark to GWF. And only saying in a dependent note that he is a bit sad that currently Swordmaster Guardian have no such marking possibility as the Iron Vanguard one don't mean that it avoid GWF get mark due WMS too then. If you don't trust. Look at the feats that get additionally to the feat section. There you will have your answer of the 'unique' method of paragon/class.
What you quote don't fit the point of mark will only be viable for guardians only. What lord gallen stated is that paragon path will include in future more than only 3 class features, 1 daily and 1 encounter as it do now.
You see that the merged Threating Rush give mark to GWF. And only saying in a dependent note that he is a bit sad that currently Swordmaster Guardian have no such marking possibility as the Iron Vanguard one don't mean that it avoid GWF get mark due WMS too then. If you don't trust. Look at the feats that get additionally to the feat section. There you will have your answer of the 'unique' method of paragon/class.
I think you're misreading the statement. It doesn't hint at any point that the paragon path will have more than six powers and does exactly state that a changed WMS would only affect the GF and not the GWF. I mean, there's nothing ambiguous about "one of the divergent Paragon aspects would be Weapon Master Strike gaining Mark for Guardians"
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited November 2013
"Divergent paragon aspects" should be read to mean that the skills won't work exactly the same way with each class.
Though regards to dungeoning it's been my impression that many guardians do not use Tab to mark multiple targets, but instead rely on Threatening rush when quick Mark application is desired. Since the Swordmaster guardian loses that skill, it's likely that one of the divergent Paragon aspects would be Weapon Master Strike gaining Mark for Guardians.
I apparently missed this but...
The #1 reason I barely ever use Tab marking is because the animation is way, way, too slow. Once in combat I can click threatening rush and mark 1+ targets and get damage on them faster than I can tab mark 1 target. Why would I bother with Tab marking?
I only use tab marking on fast moving bosses because they move out of range of Threatening, and only if they moved out of range of Lunging as well.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
I only meant to the "Initial pull" post you mentioned
Single tab on one target will make sure the main target comes to say Hello! however if you had a Hot on you or had a heal right away the other target(S) would veer off to Other Members/Pets unless you multi Tabbed of course, or kicked in lunging strike then Threatning rush
That's not how it works.
If something is within a vicinity it will alert the things around it. Being single target only means that it can't be put on multiple creatures at once. Mobs will either be taunted based on a vicinity or based on 'encounters.' If you taunt something close to another mob or is part of an encounter it will still pull the exact same way. It will still have the same taunting effect it currently has.
The change Lord Galen proposed has absolutely no effect on pulling, only one in combat tab marking.
EDIT - I never mentioned initial pulls. I actively Tab Mark within fights if something runs after a squishy character. This is especially prominent in the add fest boss fights because when mobs spawn vicinity plays a huge role in which character they will attack.
What I am advocating is changing it from our TAB ability and moving it to an aspect of our attacks so we can get a TAB ability that works in both PvP and PvE. Something bringing us on par with GWF's using Iron Vanguard so we can avoid the inevitable nerfing of GWF's that is sure to follow because of the new paragons effect on PvP.
I was pointing out that your suggestion would be extremely detrimental to PvE GF's.
The entire point of Tab Marking is that it has a godly long range. If you removed the marking from the tab it would kill PvE because there's nowhere else to put that mechanic and it is a crucial aspect to use. Putting it on an encounter is not viable and putting it on the at wills would not make any sense.
The Tab key is the perfect spot for the mechanic, players simply don't learn how, why and when to use it because it is too underpowered outside of dungeon delves. I firmly believe the solution is to buff the tab key but not completely alter it or make it single target.
we speak speak speak but we have no signals that devps will fix/buff. Only bug/nerfs comein the last months. GF is at its all-time low. We only got vague words on some little adjustments in the far far future. Everything is most important and urgent than GF.
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twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
I firmly believe the solution is to buff the tab key but not completely alter it or make it single target.
Did you happen to read my thoughts a page or two back? I'd like to get some input from other GF's who agree that our tab ability needs a buff, and eventually I'll create a new post about it in the Barracks.
I was pointing out that your suggestion would be extremely detrimental to PvE GF's.
The entire point of Tab Marking is that it has a godly long range. If you removed the marking from the tab it would kill PvE because there's nowhere else to put that mechanic and it is a crucial aspect to use. Putting it on an encounter is not viable and putting it on the at wills would not make any sense.
The Tab key is the perfect spot for the mechanic, players simply don't learn how, why and when to use it because it is too underpowered outside of dungeon delves. I firmly believe the solution is to buff the tab key but not completely alter it or make it single target.
No, only a GF incapable of controlling aggro would be effected. If you need to use ranged single target taunt to control aggro in T2's then you are using it as a crutch. There are other very effective ways. The GF is just as valuable and needed without ever needing to touch the TAB at n PvE with the game in its current state.
What I am saying is that we GF's need and deserve a better tool that is effective for both PvP and PvE. Repeatedly stating that one finds it useful for half the game (PvE) does not solve the problem of making it useful for the other half of the game (PvP). Every other class TAB ability is useful in both halves of the game.
IMHO, we should come up with a solution that addresses both halves. If we can agree on that, then we can help figure out solutions for the "what" and "how" to accomplish this. I'm open to any and all suggestions.
No, only a GF incapable of controlling aggro would be effected. If you need to use ranged single target taunt to control aggro in T2's then you are using it as a crutch. There are other very effective ways. The GF is just as valuable and needed without ever needing to touch the TAB at n PvE with the game in its current state.
What I am saying is that we GF's need and deserve a better tool that is effective for both PvP and PvE. Repeatedly stating that one finds it useful for half the game (PvE) does not solve the problem of making it useful for the other half of the game (PvP). Every other class TAB ability is useful in both halves of the game.
IMHO, we should come up with a solution that addresses both halves. If we can agree on that, then we can help figure out solutions for the "what" and "how" to accomplish this. I'm open to any and all suggestions.
The perma tab mark would effectly affect both the aspect since a perma tab mark would let boost your dps by an 8% moreover the new WMS would make you able to take the new paragon that has new, more effective tools for PvP.
Do not forget that this discussion is about the new paragon that is clearly less desiderable than the old one since it would lack of any ability to effectly keep the agro and brings a lower DPS in PvE.
I don't care if GWF would get a better boost than the one GFs are getting I'd eventually be happy if GWF will be a more desiderable member of the party I also disagree that another CW is always better than a GF in the party.
I have seen a party with 3 CW 1 DC and 1 TR doing MC and it didn't seem to be faster than the classic 2 CW 1 DC 1 TR 1 GF.
If I had to suggest something about game balancing, all I would ask are more mobs/adds immune to CC (like in MC).
Saved81, good points all. But, for PvP the Swordmaster paragon pah adds nothing for GF's. As it is almost no GF's will use it for PvP except for the initial trial of base. It loses a lot of control for only a small theoretical damage gain. I say theoretical because the extra control time leads to higher damage for fighters who have no ranged skills.
The best part of the GWF is his TAB ability and the worst part is his paragon path.
The best part of a GF is his Paragon paths and his worst part is his TAB ability.
This is why the discussion of sharing the paragon paths has inevitably led to suggestions to improve the GF's TAB ability.
With GWF's getting access to GF paragon paths, most will change to the GF paragon paths. A month after release of Module 2 there will be very few GF's using the GWF's paragon paths.
If the Devs ever decide to share the TAB abilities, I'm quite confident that the vast majority of both GF's and GWF's would choose Unstoppable. ;-)
Frontline Surge was changed, if there is a bug it is there.
I don't speak about the 30% Ap before it done with hitting 3 targets. I speak about that 22% Ap Gain seem to not work. So it need to be said if the Con AP gain work or that skill. Sad that i don't have a low Con lvl 31 to test out if Frontline only give 8% AP or more.
No, only a GF incapable of controlling aggro would be effected. If you need to use ranged single target taunt to control aggro in T2's then you are using it as a crutch. There are other very effective ways. The GF is just as valuable and needed without ever needing to touch the TAB at n PvE with the game in its current state.
...
In Frozen Heart at Hrimnir when the Guardian Fighter kites the adds around, Tab Mark is very useful to get Aggro from new spawning adds and to keep them in line. It has its uses but still could need some enhancements.
Moreover, lately I replaced Threatening Rush with Tide of Iron and only use Enforced Threat and Tab Mark and, well, I do not miss it. Cryptic's job is not as bad as some here want to make people believe it is.
In Frozen Heart at Hrimnir when the Guardian Fighter kites the adds around, Tab Mark is very useful to get Aggro from new spawning adds and to keep them in line. It has its uses but still could need some enhancements.
Moreover, lately I replaced Threatening Rush with Tide of Iron and only use Enforced Threat and Tab Mark and, well, I do not miss it. Cryptic's job is not as bad as some here want to make people believe it is.
TAB Mark has some uses, sure, but it isn't necessary by any means. I tank that particular dungeon quite a bit and use damage to control agro. Without getting too deep into ever-changing dungeon strategy, suffice it to say that we have gap-closers and controls that do a fair job. Threatening Rush and Lunging Strike go a long way towards grabbing agro. If your teammates don't attack them and simply dodge towards you it's not hard at all to gather them. One Threatening Rush marks huge quantities of them, even if it doesn't mark all of them. You don't even need Enforced Threat unless you just like it. Frontline Surge is another good one to grab attention without going all the way over to a mob ... but like Threatening Rush, it has limited range.
One point to consider is that TAB Mark has an animation, and in a dungeon like Frozen Heart those longish animations can sometimes get you stunlocked. I think you can get comfortable add-tanking that without ever using TAB Mark ... but most will likely never give it a try to be honest.
Tide of Iron is great for 1v1 vs. PvE, and I'm not trying to say it isn't. But, Threatening Rush's mobility is nice to have as well. During Beta, I was told never to use Threatening Rush in PvE ... but I did anyway, and learned that I love that style of PvE tanking. Now I see it is currently in vogue, but the mantra is that TAB Mark is essential ... I don't agree with that one either. Useful, like you said, yes. But it isn't essential honestly. If we have it, and we have no alternative, sure, why not.
But if I had to choose between the Dodge that the Rogue, Cleric and Mage have, or the Unstoppable that the Great Weapon Fighter has, or the Single-Target Mark that the Guardian Fighter has ... the Mark would be my last choice for both PvP and PvE.
Let the Fighters also share both options for their TAB slot ... and IMHO, we will see that Unstoppable will be the clear winner. Perhaps that could be done for Module 2 as well. Choose which Paragon you want, and have both to put in your TAB slot kinda like how Mages can select different spells to put into their TAB slot.
It is true that GF tab power is weaker and less usefull than orher classes tsb power, but i dont like the idea to replace it by unstoppable for many readons:
- i think it is bad to have shared powr/path between two classes (balancing problem)
- i prefer have different and unique classes. even if GF and GWF are both warrior, for example, i like GF and i dont like GWF. Generally, make two classes too similar is bad.
- i think it should be better seriously buff taunt or replace it by a new unique power designed for GF.
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morduuMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
But if I had to choose between the Dodge that the Rogue, Cleric and Mage have, or the Unstoppable that the Great Weapon Fighter has, or the Single-Target Mark that the Guardian Fighter has ... the Mark would be my last choice for both PvP and PvE.
I understand your point, and generally agree with you. And, I'm not trying to be nit-picky, but you're mixing two different mechanics. The dodge that the Rogue, Cleric, and Mage have, is not akin to Unstoppable. Rather, it is akin to Sprint and Block. If you're talking about tab abilities, then you need to compare it to the extra encounter slot, stealth, and divine mode. And while I agree all of those things feel more purposeful and useful for their respective classes and roles, I just think its important that we don't merge apples into a discussion on oranges.
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twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
edited November 2013
Anyone interested in continuing a conversation about the GF's Tab skill (Mark) and outlining possible changes?
I've been getting to play my GF in t2s lately (having completed a t1 set) and I wouldn't give up the tab Mark.
That said I really wish it could be used while guarding for example, instead of having to break guard to re-mark for example. That is the biggest problem with the tab mark; you can only do it and it has an over-done animation to go with it.
The reason I use Threatening is I can mark and attack and move. If I could move, guard and not break attack sequence and tab mark it would be great. cf Ranger tab.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
I did VT on GF yesterday and imo the new paragon path is useless. All GF's have to look forward to in mod 2 is reduced AP gain. We had 2 gwf's in team who did ridiculously high damage and there was hardly any tanking needed because a lot of mobs would die within 5-10 seconds. GF are already the rarest class in the game, and I'm going to throw in the towel too. Thanks for making unslotting enchants only 2.5 gold, I will be going back to GWF.
Comments
Yes it's an automatical rejection of such an idea that harm existing feats/powers.
And if you read more than my post, you had read what i support.
But then, you aren't a developer, so, I don't really care about your opinion. Good day.
If a conquerer spec get all debuffs, all buffs and other advantages like damage etc. why we should choose tactician and protector with not all the advantages?
The step from not having it is more than once vs. twice. Every tree have feats that benefit the treeuser itself. And so it must stay.
The tab ability is useful with the perma suggestion. If you don't realize that it's your fail. The tactician have a standing PvP advantage. And the other trees too. But what you simple don't check is, that EVERY change benefit the GWF too, because of the marking! So don't complain about a mechanic, that isn't unique for GF class. The developer produce a false mechanic to get a unique advantage.
You don't check it. Enforced Threat, Threating Rush and Mark Utility share the same Mark debuff! And what the GWF have? Threating Rush! Next they will implement it to WMS, the other Paragon of GWF!
You still don't get it. I'm talking about CHANGING THE TAB MARK ABILITY OF THE GF. This would constitute a change behind the scenes in how it works, including being able to differentiate between the normal (current) mark and the enhanced mark I provided in my idea. The GWF WOULD NEVER have access to this advanced mark because they don't have the same Tab ability. YOU "don't check it". This would present zero change to the GWF and the way the current marks work. It could provide some synergies, but it wouldn't have to.
Read, think and comprehend instead of just jumping on someone's idea to prove how smart you think you are.
You mean that ET and mark appear 2 different marks? That would change a lot. But i stay with my meaning: No damage reduce for mark because feats already do this. Second it grant already additional damage.
A change to to WMS would only affect the Guardians:
What you quote don't fit the point of mark will only be viable for guardians only. What lord gallen stated is that paragon path will include in future more than only 3 class features, 1 daily and 1 encounter as it do now.
You see that the merged Threating Rush give mark to GWF. And only saying in a dependent note that he is a bit sad that currently Swordmaster Guardian have no such marking possibility as the Iron Vanguard one don't mean that it avoid GWF get mark due WMS too then. If you don't trust. Look at the feats that get additionally to the feat section. There you will have your answer of the 'unique' method of paragon/class.
I think you're misreading the statement. It doesn't hint at any point that the paragon path will have more than six powers and does exactly state that a changed WMS would only affect the GF and not the GWF. I mean, there's nothing ambiguous about "one of the divergent Paragon aspects would be Weapon Master Strike gaining Mark for Guardians"
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Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
The #1 reason I barely ever use Tab marking is because the animation is way, way, too slow. Once in combat I can click threatening rush and mark 1+ targets and get damage on them faster than I can tab mark 1 target. Why would I bother with Tab marking?
I only use tab marking on fast moving bosses because they move out of range of Threatening, and only if they moved out of range of Lunging as well.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
That's not how it works.
If something is within a vicinity it will alert the things around it. Being single target only means that it can't be put on multiple creatures at once. Mobs will either be taunted based on a vicinity or based on 'encounters.' If you taunt something close to another mob or is part of an encounter it will still pull the exact same way. It will still have the same taunting effect it currently has.
The change Lord Galen proposed has absolutely no effect on pulling, only one in combat tab marking.
EDIT - I never mentioned initial pulls. I actively Tab Mark within fights if something runs after a squishy character. This is especially prominent in the add fest boss fights because when mobs spawn vicinity plays a huge role in which character they will attack.
I was pointing out that your suggestion would be extremely detrimental to PvE GF's.
The entire point of Tab Marking is that it has a godly long range. If you removed the marking from the tab it would kill PvE because there's nowhere else to put that mechanic and it is a crucial aspect to use. Putting it on an encounter is not viable and putting it on the at wills would not make any sense.
The Tab key is the perfect spot for the mechanic, players simply don't learn how, why and when to use it because it is too underpowered outside of dungeon delves. I firmly believe the solution is to buff the tab key but not completely alter it or make it single target.
Did you happen to read my thoughts a page or two back? I'd like to get some input from other GF's who agree that our tab ability needs a buff, and eventually I'll create a new post about it in the Barracks.
No, only a GF incapable of controlling aggro would be effected. If you need to use ranged single target taunt to control aggro in T2's then you are using it as a crutch. There are other very effective ways. The GF is just as valuable and needed without ever needing to touch the TAB at n PvE with the game in its current state.
What I am saying is that we GF's need and deserve a better tool that is effective for both PvP and PvE. Repeatedly stating that one finds it useful for half the game (PvE) does not solve the problem of making it useful for the other half of the game (PvP). Every other class TAB ability is useful in both halves of the game.
IMHO, we should come up with a solution that addresses both halves. If we can agree on that, then we can help figure out solutions for the "what" and "how" to accomplish this. I'm open to any and all suggestions.
The perma tab mark would effectly affect both the aspect since a perma tab mark would let boost your dps by an 8% moreover the new WMS would make you able to take the new paragon that has new, more effective tools for PvP.
Do not forget that this discussion is about the new paragon that is clearly less desiderable than the old one since it would lack of any ability to effectly keep the agro and brings a lower DPS in PvE.
I don't care if GWF would get a better boost than the one GFs are getting I'd eventually be happy if GWF will be a more desiderable member of the party I also disagree that another CW is always better than a GF in the party.
I have seen a party with 3 CW 1 DC and 1 TR doing MC and it didn't seem to be faster than the classic 2 CW 1 DC 1 TR 1 GF.
If I had to suggest something about game balancing, all I would ask are more mobs/adds immune to CC (like in MC).
The best part of the GWF is his TAB ability and the worst part is his paragon path.
The best part of a GF is his Paragon paths and his worst part is his TAB ability.
This is why the discussion of sharing the paragon paths has inevitably led to suggestions to improve the GF's TAB ability.
With GWF's getting access to GF paragon paths, most will change to the GF paragon paths. A month after release of Module 2 there will be very few GF's using the GWF's paragon paths.
If the Devs ever decide to share the TAB abilities, I'm quite confident that the vast majority of both GF's and GWF's would choose Unstoppable. ;-)
I don't speak about the 30% Ap before it done with hitting 3 targets. I speak about that 22% Ap Gain seem to not work. So it need to be said if the Con AP gain work or that skill. Sad that i don't have a low Con lvl 31 to test out if Frontline only give 8% AP or more.
In Frozen Heart at Hrimnir when the Guardian Fighter kites the adds around, Tab Mark is very useful to get Aggro from new spawning adds and to keep them in line. It has its uses but still could need some enhancements.
Moreover, lately I replaced Threatening Rush with Tide of Iron and only use Enforced Threat and Tab Mark and, well, I do not miss it. Cryptic's job is not as bad as some here want to make people believe it is.
TAB Mark has some uses, sure, but it isn't necessary by any means. I tank that particular dungeon quite a bit and use damage to control agro. Without getting too deep into ever-changing dungeon strategy, suffice it to say that we have gap-closers and controls that do a fair job. Threatening Rush and Lunging Strike go a long way towards grabbing agro. If your teammates don't attack them and simply dodge towards you it's not hard at all to gather them. One Threatening Rush marks huge quantities of them, even if it doesn't mark all of them. You don't even need Enforced Threat unless you just like it. Frontline Surge is another good one to grab attention without going all the way over to a mob ... but like Threatening Rush, it has limited range.
One point to consider is that TAB Mark has an animation, and in a dungeon like Frozen Heart those longish animations can sometimes get you stunlocked. I think you can get comfortable add-tanking that without ever using TAB Mark ... but most will likely never give it a try to be honest.
Tide of Iron is great for 1v1 vs. PvE, and I'm not trying to say it isn't. But, Threatening Rush's mobility is nice to have as well. During Beta, I was told never to use Threatening Rush in PvE ... but I did anyway, and learned that I love that style of PvE tanking. Now I see it is currently in vogue, but the mantra is that TAB Mark is essential ... I don't agree with that one either. Useful, like you said, yes. But it isn't essential honestly. If we have it, and we have no alternative, sure, why not.
But if I had to choose between the Dodge that the Rogue, Cleric and Mage have, or the Unstoppable that the Great Weapon Fighter has, or the Single-Target Mark that the Guardian Fighter has ... the Mark would be my last choice for both PvP and PvE.
Let the Fighters also share both options for their TAB slot ... and IMHO, we will see that Unstoppable will be the clear winner. Perhaps that could be done for Module 2 as well. Choose which Paragon you want, and have both to put in your TAB slot kinda like how Mages can select different spells to put into their TAB slot.
- i think it is bad to have shared powr/path between two classes (balancing problem)
- i prefer have different and unique classes. even if GF and GWF are both warrior, for example, i like GF and i dont like GWF. Generally, make two classes too similar is bad.
- i think it should be better seriously buff taunt or replace it by a new unique power designed for GF.
I understand your point, and generally agree with you. And, I'm not trying to be nit-picky, but you're mixing two different mechanics. The dodge that the Rogue, Cleric, and Mage have, is not akin to Unstoppable. Rather, it is akin to Sprint and Block. If you're talking about tab abilities, then you need to compare it to the extra encounter slot, stealth, and divine mode. And while I agree all of those things feel more purposeful and useful for their respective classes and roles, I just think its important that we don't merge apples into a discussion on oranges.
I started a thread:
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?534521-GF-Tab-SKill-Underwhelming
That said I really wish it could be used while guarding for example, instead of having to break guard to re-mark for example. That is the biggest problem with the tab mark; you can only do it and it has an over-done animation to go with it.
The reason I use Threatening is I can mark and attack and move. If I could move, guard and not break attack sequence and tab mark it would be great. cf Ranger tab.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.