Lol why GF is needed to tank a boss? The most are harmless idiot ones. They can't OS the party. They can't attack fast. Neither they aren't any threat at all! The mobs instead are the ones that kill the party. The bosses needs abilities, that only can beaten by GF mechanics. THEN the GF is not the idiot from kiting service. Or even the 'we use glitches as CWs/ranged Classes' problem occur...
I agree with this, but with 2 boss tanking exceptions: 1) MC 2nd & 3rd bosses - Very FEW classes outside of GF can take these 2 head on constantly. If you've done it without a GF, GREAT for you, but I find more need it than don't. Knights Valor on 3rd boss is a WIN too. 2) Dwarf King in GG - Works best when kept in place by a GF away from adds.
Having done PK to CN, GF is not needed on boss and the mechanics just need to change.
Prediction: Giving Vanguard to GWF's is gonna HAMSTER off the community 2 fold...
GF's are gonna QQ quit PvE.
Everyone else i gonna QQ quit PvP.
Cryptic BALANCED the classes (for PvE)... PWE scrambled them for both.
"It is said that idle hands are the Devil's tools: Idle geek hands, however, came up with gunpowder, nuclear weapons, and toilet plungers." -Illiad
I agree with this, but with 2 boss tanking exceptions: 1) MC 2nd & 3rd bosses - Very FEW classes outside of GF can take these 2 head on constantly. If you've done it without a GF, GREAT for you, but I find more need it than don't. Knights Valor on 3rd boss is a WIN too. 2) Dwarf King in GG - Works best when kept in place by a GF away from adds.
Having done PK to CN, GF is not needed on boss and the mechanics just need to change.
Prediction: Giving Vanguard to GWF's is gonna HAMSTER off the community 2 fold...
GF's are gonna QQ quit PvE.
Everyone else i gonna QQ quit PvP.
Cryptic BALANCED the classes (for PvE)... PWE scrambled them for both.
I know MC. But the second boss is not the bad as all think. His 3 Hit can easy avoided. The long lasting side blow hit can avoid. Yes it's easier, but except that it's not impossible for nearly all classes. If they don't fix Slam 1 hit Val, the third boss is playable with GWF too. I don't run Dwarf King one time, so i can't say if there is a tank really needed.
I say it with this: "The most are harmless idiot ones" most != all. A GF is replaceable with a GWF or even a TR. With the TR they make to much exception. ItC is to powerful for TR. DF grant CC-immunity too. Daily for complete immunity. An attack that ports them behind the target = avoid incoming hits. Deflection severity of 75%, that is with a deflection build really good. Additionally the 3 dodges. Sorry, it exist no boss current in this game, that require a GF. The bad thing is, that every attempt to make a boss harder, the only who will pay for it is the GF, because he lack mobility/damage immunities. Block is something that is great, but if you have to run, any faster/ranged attacker enemy will kill you. Faster attacks mean faster blockkill. The balance between blockrecovery and attackspeed/chance of attacker is fast maxed. If boss get a OS attack with long animation = dodge/damage immunity skill activation of the other classes(or only run out of the maybe AoE). Who have to eat the attack? The poor GF. Ranged attacks? Only help if they can truly OS All except GF.(but then again rare conditions like high deflection/hp can safe the other classes and will only hurt GF) The only way to make for me a boss fight hard is that the environment attack too.(like in Gnarl) Then the boss need a shield that is small in area, but avoid him from any attackdamage outside of it(shieldlike even) that don't break with an attack. OS boss with fast attacking ranged not shown Attack, fast speed and 5 hitcombo. Then we maybe get a bossfight that break CW dominance and we need a GF.
I like this idea alot as well! Stamina for block instead of a block meter, you then have to manage your block appropriately and taking damage reduces block meter faster?
Then Tab could be tied to the "meter" currently associated with Guard and be a "taunt" meter like mentioned above. So the meter starts full, then drains the longer you "channel" it on a target.
The target gets increased aggro and I like the idea of also adding -damage to teammates giving it some pvp viability. Make like a 2-3% damage lost for each second channeled?
Agreed, that's also how I imagined how Block could work if tied to the Stamina Meter, where GF's would raise their shields up, Stamina slowly depletes, but I've been imagining it to not deplete faster even while taking damage. This way, GF's can still soak up a decent amount of damage regardless of how strong the strikes against him will be. Putting the shield down will cause the GF to regain his stamina again and prepare for the next volley of strikes. It should be a decent improvement to the Block Mechanic since Block tends to be broken a lot at its current state.
And yes! Force Taunt on TAB would be heavenly, right? I've been thinking of it like a Taunt where enemies will attack you regardless of the Threat generated by your allies and your aggro generated, where as one tick of TAB would Mark enemies like usual. It's a TAB skill so it should be at least this good. As long as you "channeled" some of the meter against the enemy, they will be forced to attack you for an amount of time proportional to how much of the meter was channeled against him, in PVE. As for the -%damage to teammates, I like the idea of 2 - 3% damage lost multiplied by the number of seconds channeled against the enemy. Like a channeled 10 seconds would be 20 - 30% damage lost for the enemy against your teammates. Was thinking that the maximum amount of time that could be channeled would be 15 seconds, and this could be extended via the use of Feats or something.
Feedback:Would it not be better to just associate Guard with Stamina instead of the "Guard Meter"? This way the tooltips regarding stamina regeneration would not need to specifically mention the GF's Guard Meter each time it explains something.
I also like the idea about the reworked TAB mechanic for the GF, a force taunt which causes enemies to face you if used in full. But like Ambisinister said, this may conflict with how PVE GFs who mastered their class mechanic in PVE to change their method of play. So what I thought about is that this revamped TAB mechanic would be some sort of Taunt Meter, where pressing TAB once would Mark an enemy like usual and consume a small amount from the Taunt Meter. But holding TAB would cause the GF to drain its Taunt Meter on a selected opponent, forcing the enemy to attack the GF for a number of seconds proportional to how much of the Taunt Meter was used up for this Taunt. The GF may use this on more than one enemy, but he will have to manage how much of the Taunt Meter he has to allocate for each enemy. Taunted enemies will deal reduced damage to other players in the party except for the GF, depending on how much of the Taunt Meter was used up for the GF. This action would in turn protect the party from the damage the Taunted enemy will dish out. Sort of like a soft version of Knight's Challenge as this suggestion of mine does not include the damage boost the GF and his enemy will deal to each other. The Taunt Meter will regenerate by itself by a set amount in time regardless of external influences like damage, and it may also regenerate via the use of encounters such as Enforced Threat, Iron Warrior, Knight's Valor, etc.
Such a mechanic would also perform well for PVP too. One gripe GF's have for PVP is that their class mechanic is utterly useless for PVP matches. But this one would let GF's work like a "protector" of their allies, shielding them from harm, locking enemies into a pseudo-1 vs. 1 combat where the enemy will have to deal with the GF first if he wishes to deal the full amount of damage he can do against the other allies of the GF. This would be an effective means to protect squishy classes like the CW against the hard-hitting TR's, a means to protect TR's against fellow GF's, DC's against everyone else, so on and so forth. There will be many ways to use such a TAB mechanic and it should provide GF's a solid place in dungeon parties as well.
This is brilliant and I would love to see the Tab (and Block) mechanics be changed to this.
Seems like two competing ideas are currently floating around. One Permamark that marks a single target at once on TAB and doesn't disappear on damage taken and one force taunt mechanic that drains a taunt meter and would move block to interact with stamina. I highly favor the first, because I don't think GFs need any more help with aggro. If you can't hold aggro as a GF the crippled TAB ability is not your problem. This simply shouldn't happen regardless of your spec.
This is just NOT true of experienced Guardians and this should not be the case for a majority of experienced GFs. Simply stated, it is a rooky mistake to use Threatening Rush in "most" (few exceptions) Dungeons.
While Threatening Rush is great for small scattered herds of mobs, most experienced Guardian Fighters will only use this in specific situations. Tide of Iron is still largely preferred in Dungeons for its shield regeneration and survival properties. In Dungeons, Guardian Fighters use Mark, Enhanced Mark and Enforced Threat for true marking, NOT Threatening Rush.
Have to disagree. T-Rush beats Iron in Trash/AoE situations every time. The "specific" situations you are referring to are Wizzies throwing Singus, Steal Times and Entangling Forces all over the place. As a GF, you follow up these spells by rushing into the gathered mobs, mark them while they can't attack you and provide your party with the damage debuff. Tide of Iron is strictly single target and with the fixed Aggravating Strike you'll be able to boost your party DPS by ~37%, which is nice!
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kolbe11Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Have to disagree. T-Rush beats Iron in Trash/AoE situations every time. The "specific" situations you are referring to are Wizzies throwing Singus, Steal Times and Entangling Forces all over the place. As a GF, you follow up these spells by rushing into the gathered mobs, mark them while they can't attack you and provide your party with the damage debuff. Tide of Iron is strictly single target and with the fixed Aggravating Strike you'll be able to boost your party DPS by ~37%, which is nice!
I don't care about PvP, that's an entirely different game.
In PvE, you only have 2 situations:
1) Singularity gathered mobs
2) Gathering them yourself
Whether it be the stun effects of Ice Golums, the transformation circle used by Witches, the webs of spiders etc; Tide of Iron is ABSOLUTELY essential when you are controlling a boss room of mobs as you need to block said specific attacks. If you really, REALLY think you are going to have all the shield you need to block every critical attack without using either Enforced Threat (regen) or Tide of Iron when in the middle of 20 adds, then you have not played GF enough. THAT is what I am talking about.
Situationally, trash between bosses, kiting in places like FH and grinding areas can be had using Threatening Rush, I do it myself. However, the boss fights are where it counts and there is where you utilize lunging strike to get where you need to be and Tide of Iron to keep your shield meter up enough to prevent them from taking you down or straying off to a party member.
"It is said that idle hands are the Devil's tools: Idle geek hands, however, came up with gunpowder, nuclear weapons, and toilet plungers." -Illiad
So chances are good that in the future the shared paragons will diverge a bit more than they do now to better fit the class that is using them. Will not happen for this upcoming patch however.
In better news for Guardians, looking towards the next next patch (Patch after the upcoming patch) they will get some favorable adjustments. Improved swing times on some of the slower animations for example. (Griffon's Wrath is currently very difficult to interrupt targets with)
Also toying with Tab Mark being limited to a single target at a time, but having it no longer removed when damaged. With an updated FX, this would also be a handy group tool as it adds a reliable way for the Guardian to bring attention to a target.
Making Marking Better;
1) Make it depend on you attacking the target or at least being within your reach of them not on the target hitting you. So you mark the target and as long as you fight it/stay close to it the target suffers penalties to attacks on your allies (that don't include you ideally).
2) Get rid of the animation, or change it to a fast weapon thrust at the target. Seriously the main reason I don't use Tab marking in fights is I can make 1 to 2 attacks in the time it takes to run the marking animation.
3) Give GFs a threat zone based on a meter (like Divinity/Stealth/Unstoppable) that scales off the damage their allies take. The more damage that their allies take the more threat the GF generates, when the bar is full all enemies in the zone get marked.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
I don't know where you get your information but every GF I know considers Tide of Iron a situational skill.
There's only two situations it is put into my bar: The final Bosses of Malabog's and Temple of the Spider.
Reason: It's a single target debuff.
Singularities in most situations are my best friend as a GF. Why?
Threatening Rush into the piled adds, the marks will generate threat. Then use enforced threat and/or Aggravating Strike and those mobs will be glued to you. On top of that damaging with a GF is a major means to generate threat so big piles is cleave heaven.
Singularities assist threat generation in most cases and Threatening Rush is a major factor to that. Tide of Iron is a single target debuff. it really doesn't do anything for me whatsoever outside of a very few, select boss fights where I am tanking. In the vast majority of the game I am 'tanking' trash so I couldn't care less about debuffing them. I can simply use cleave and generate a ton more threat and damage than will be noticed from wasting a swing on a single target debuff.
Feedback: Weapon Master's Strike I agree this power replacing Threatening Rush is a major reason this won't see use in PvE. Heck even if you give Weapon Master Strike an AoE Mark I still don't think it will make up for the loss of mobility which I feel is just as important as the AoE Mark.
Feedback: Tab Mark This does need some love. It's 100% useless in solo combat and in PvP but it's essential to Dungeons. Experienced GF's will use Tab Marking as much as they use their encounter powers to make sure any stray mobs that are out of range are quickly pulled away from other players as long as those players know not to retaliate.
I'm not entirely sure what the solution is. The best bet is likely to make the tab mark last for X amount of seconds regardless of attacks and apply a more severe debuff but please do not make it single target and overly complicated. The issue with the tab marking is in it's effectiveness, if you make it more effective for more varied situations you should even need to tinker with the complexity. In fact a slight boost (and I stress single target is a punishment, not a boost) but also up the complexity then people may still opt not to use it as often as they should.
So chances are good that in the future the shared paragons will diverge a bit more than they do now to better fit the class that is using them. Will not happen for this upcoming patch however.
In better news for Guardians, looking towards the next next patch (Patch after the upcoming patch) they will get some favorable adjustments. Improved swing times on some of the slower animations for example. (Griffon's Wrath is currently very difficult to interrupt targets with)
Also toying with Tab Mark being limited to a single target at a time, but having it no longer removed when damaged. With an updated FX, this would also be a handy group tool as it adds a reliable way for the Guardian to bring attention to a target.
Thank you. That directly deals with my point #3. We GF's appreciate that.
Any chance of point #4 to make the animation of Villain's Menace uninterruptible?
So because some inexperienced player post here or don't know that some of her suggestion already exist:
Iron Guard 1 With every melee hit on an enemy, you reduce its damage by 2%. Maximum 10% damage reduction.
(yeah it dependent on attack your target, but the suggestion to take less damage or only for teammates interrupt this feat efficiency)
And for all clear enough:
Daunting Challenge 5 Marked targets now deal 2/4/6/8/10% less damage to your allies, but still deal full damage to you.
Exact the suggestion maked.
So NO Damage reduce while mob marked. It already exist feats for this use.
And for all:
Mark: last 20s while marked mob don't hit you. Blocked attacks don't count for hit. Grant +8% damage.
If they remove the hitclause(mean that it stay permanent until its duration run out) would help a lot and avoid such blanks posts i read above me...
Making it to an AoE mark... i don't know if this is so good. I use it for pulling few mobs, not the whole groups. So if the aggro radius increase with this AoE marking, then no. If only all aggro mobs are marked within the normal aggro initial of marking, then yes do it.
I want to echo the sentiment here, NW devs, if I wanted a Great Weapon Fighter I would have rolled one! This is a lazy re-hash of existing work and does a disservice to the game and these important classes. Shame!
One major balance issue: GF's TAB Mark ability is far too weak in PvP. GWF's Unstoppable is extremely powerful.
This will create an always a impossible balance issue between the classes. When you nerf GWF's to balance PvP you will be robbing them of a role in PvE. When you re-boost them for PvE, they will be OP at the high end for PvP. Neither situation is good.
Suggestion:
Change the GF's TAB ability completely to something that is valuable in both PvP and PvE on par with the tremendous PvP survivability powers of Unstoppable and Dodge. Such as a resistance boost of an additional 20% and give it a similar use and reuse timer/condition as the GWF's Unstoppable. Then you could give all Fighter classes Mark through things like Threatening Rush and WMS.
As it is now, Blocking is nice but not great. It is approximately as useful in PvP as the Sprint of the GWF. But, Unstoppable is far superior to Block, Sprint and Mark. This is where your balancing disconnect will always keep the Dev team pulling out their hair.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Removing the ability to mark, especially multiple targets, from the Guardian Fighter will greatly diminish their effectiveness in PvE. The number one reason the GWF lacks so much love in PvE is because they really don't have a hard coded role in the mechanics. They do damage but not enough to shred adds faster or better than a wizard and that is likely dfue to the lack of CC more than anything else.
The Guardian Fighter has a clearly defined role but many upper end players will simply toss them asside anyway for similar reasons to why GWF.
Basically GF's have the ability to control adds and keep them in piles or at least similar locations but not the ability to do a lot of damage. GWF's have the ability to do damage but lack the ability to pile mobs up on their own. So each class can and does get tossed to the wayside in favor of another wizard who can do both.
The only reason a GF comes out slightly better is because a GF can keep the wizard alive between singularities while the GWF can't. Taking out one of their major threat generators based on comparing the two classes in PvP will result in GF's becoming far less useful in PvE.
I really don't want to see the Tab Mark heavilly changed. It's great as it is for group content PvE. What it needs is a buff to make it more attractive in PvP and in solo content. I think the best location to garner some inspiration from is from the PHB1 because marking is far more effective in PnP and doesn't generate 'threat' as much as it causes such serious debuffs that the DM is inclined to have those monsters attack the Guardian Fighter.
Combat Challenge [Marking]
In combat, it’s dangerous to ignore a fighter. Every time you attack an enemy, whether the attack hits or misses, you can choose to mark that target. The mark lasts until the end of your next turn. While a target is marked, it takes a –2 penalty to attack rolls for any attack that doesn’t include you as a target. A creature can be subject to only one mark at a time. A new mark
supersedes a mark that was already in place. In addition, whenever a marked enemy that is
adjacent to you shifts or makes an attack that does not include you, you can make a melee basic attack against that enemy as an immediate interrupt.
The only problem is that since the game is so heavy with add fest fights the GF in PnP and Neverwinter play quite differently. GF's in PnP are the elite and boss tanks but in Neverwinter they are the add tanks and until the develoipers change fights to be less DPS add fest fights any changes to try to benefit a GF boss tank will actually be a detriment more than a benefit.
Perhaps instead of a static damage debuff there should be a 10% chance to outright miss and perhaps a defense debuff so the effects could be more noticeable?
Players can easilly overlook debuffs especially in the heat of battle but if they start seeing 'miss' while attacking the enemy rogue I think they would get the point real fast in PvP. On top of that in PvE marks should last 10 seconds regardless of who the mob attacks and the defense debuff will increase the GF's damage allowing for improved threat generation and increased damage for the party as a whole.
So because some inexperienced player post here or don't know that some of her suggestion already exist:
Iron Guard 1 With every melee hit on an enemy, you reduce its damage by 2%. Maximum 10% damage reduction.
(yeah it dependent on attack your target, but the suggestion to take less damage or only for teammates interrupt this feat efficiency)
And for all clear enough:
Daunting Challenge 5 Marked targets now deal 2/4/6/8/10% less damage to your allies, but still deal full damage to you.
Exact the suggestion maked.
So NO Damage reduce while mob marked. It already exist feats for this use.
And for all:
Mark: last 20s while marked mob don't hit you. Blocked attacks don't count for hit. Grant +8% damage.
If they remove the hitclause(mean that it stay permanent until its duration run out) would help a lot and avoid such blanks posts i read above me...
Making it to an AoE mark... i don't know if this is so good. I use it for pulling few mobs, not the whole groups. So if the aggro radius increase with this AoE marking, then no. If only all aggro mobs are marked within the normal aggro initial of marking, then yes do it.
i also think single taunt in better and i also use it to taunt single (sometime it doesnt work couse near mobs come with the taunted one). Often my teammayes ask me to taunt that big one but come with others mobs and my friends conplain againt me but it isnt my fault lol. Now the frase "taunt that one" it is intended to a TR (always TR...) that can taunt better with kives, in fact usually i see that obly the hitten mob come.
So, i think to improove taunt it could be good:
- make it last 20 seconds in any case
- make it that only tha taunted mobs come and not the near ones
EDIT
i think in this thread we are speakin too much about taunt only; sure it is important, but GF have a lot of ptoblems coming with module 2 and old ones, so don't forget them^^
Yes GF's mark could use some love but as a tab power it should not be compared to unstoppable or dodge as a comparison. Unstoppable is so good because a GWF shift can't dodge like other classes, GWF suck at avoiding attacks they can only soak damage. And even eith that GWF's should have some deflection or damage reduction for sprinting. Because they build so squishy so they have a hope in hell of doing some decent damage.
GF's block is fine, for those of you that can't maintain a good block meter, learn what red circles you can just walk out of and that do no need to be blocked. This is how conquere GF's top the damage charts, not by blocking but by sidestepping. Keeping a nearly full gaurd meter all the time.
I think the mark from GF's tab should not be removed if that target hits you. It will give GF's a reason to Tab even with other marking moves like enforced threat and threatening rush. Also there needs to be more ways to take a hit and keep a target marked. Defelction would be excellent form this. If you defelct an attack from a marked target it should stay marked. You should only lose mark on a full direct hit, not from DoT's or deflected attacks.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
i also think single taunt in better and i also use it to taunt single (sometime it doesnt work couse near mobs come with the taunted one).
That is intentional, my friend, and even making the tab taunt a single target won't change that.
The mark will still be applied just as it was before with bonus effects but limited to only one mark at a time. However marks in general generate threat and that threat is not mob specific so when you mark something and generate threat all mobs will see you as slightly more of an issue.
As a Guardian Fighter your goal is to have your threat rating higher than the threat of any other class in the party so most if not all things will attack you instead of the rest of your party. Every other class (except maybe the GWF) has feats which lower their threat generation while the GF has feats which increase their threat generation.
So when you mark something, it and other things in its vicinity will start to view you as a threat and move to attack you unless somebody is actively (and heavily) beating on it or something in the area.
And I do highly suggest you try to get your friends to switch roles. You'll probably find things go much smoother the other way around.
The rest of the party can easily dodge one big things attack. However if you have the attention of one big thing and ignore the twenty small things chasing after the wizard, rogue and cleric you can quickly have a major problem.
Which is why GF's such as myself see 'single target tab mark' and scream 'nooooo!!!'
Try it. I would be extremely surprised if you and your friends don't immediately sigh with relief and ask why you didn't do this sooner.
That is intentional, my friend, and even making the tab taunt a single target won't change that.
The mark will still be applied just as it was before with bonus effects but limited to only one mark at a time. However marks in general generate threat and that threat is not mob specific so when you mark something and generate threat all mobs will see you as slightly more of an issue.
As a Guardian Fighter your goal is to have your threat rating higher than the threat of any other class in the party so most if not all things will attack you instead of the rest of your party. Every other class (except maybe the GWF) has feats which lower their threat generation while the GF has feats which increase their threat generation.
So when you mark something, it and other things in its vicinity will start to view you as a threat and move to attack you unless somebody is actively (and heavily) beating on it or something in the area.
And I do highly suggest you try to get your friends to switch roles. You'll probably find things go much smoother the other way around.
The rest of the party can easily dodge one big things attack. However if you have the attention of one big thing and ignore the twenty small things chasing after the wizard, rogue and cleric you can quickly have a major problem.
Which is why GF's such as myself see 'single target tab mark' and scream 'nooooo!!!'
Try it. I would be extremely surprised if you and your friends don't immediately sigh with relief and ask why you didn't do this sooner.
This would be correct however if a Healing Companion is healing you and you have a Hot / Or DC has a hot on you the agro/Threat this produces will go to them apart from the main agro you marked
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited November 2013
Yeah, that's kind of the entire reason you spend so much time actively generating threat as a Guardian Fighter. Guardian Fighters shouldn't be losing threat to healing. If you spend the time actively trying to generate threat it's quite easy to maintain once you have it.
I'll just notch this as another time that I really wish I had recordings of me playing on my GF. I have absolutely, 100% no issue maintaining threat and keeping the cleric safe. Actually if I lose threat more often than not it is to the wizards. Everybody knows about heal threat but there is also control threat as well and wizards who use Arcane Singularity when I am kiting basically sign their death certificate. Clerics, on the other hand, are more or less safe.
I really do need to take the time out to write some guides and record some videos. It would really help people understand some of the subtle tricks to playing a GF and maybe earn the class a bit more respect. However, do note, marking is simply a tool to enhance your threat generation. If you are losing threat as soon as things aren't marked there's another problem altogether. I guess I'll leave it at that and end up writing a fulll on guide one of these days.
Tab Marking is the long distance way to gain threat as long as the party knows not to attack anything they don't want attacking them back. If they don't retaliate it is already an enforced threat for the most part. Adding in any mechanic which would limit or discourage spamming marks would be a detriment.
That is intentional, my friend, and even making the tab taunt a single target won't change that.
The mark will still be applied just as it was before with bonus effects but limited to only one mark at a time. However marks in general generate threat and that threat is not mob specific so when you mark something and generate threat all mobs will see you as slightly more of an issue.
As a Guardian Fighter your goal is to have your threat rating higher than the threat of any other class in the party so most if not all things will attack you instead of the rest of your party. Every other class (except maybe the GWF) has feats which lower their threat generation while the GF has feats which increase their threat generation.
So when you mark something, it and other things in its vicinity will start to view you as a threat and move to attack you unless somebody is actively (and heavily) beating on it or something in the area.
And I do highly suggest you try to get your friends to switch roles. You'll probably find things go much smoother the other way around.
The rest of the party can easily dodge one big things attack. However if you have the attention of one big thing and ignore the twenty small things chasing after the wizard, rogue and cleric you can quickly have a major problem.
Which is why GF's such as myself see 'single target tab mark' and scream 'nooooo!!!'
Try it. I would be extremely surprised if you and your friends don't immediately sigh with relief and ask why you didn't do this sooner.
you didnt understand. I was speaking about that siruations in which the party prefer to taunt and fight before some mobs and the the others. example: spider in MC. Often if i taunt one little one before boss foght, often also the boss come. If a tr hit one of little one with a knive, only the little one come. So i simply said in comparison to make GF single taunt as good as TR "single taunt".
so inthat situation they complain "why did you taunt tha boss?". An the next time they dodnt ask to GF to taunt, they ask to tr
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l3g10nna1reMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 372Arc User
I only meant to the "Initial pull" post you mentioned
Single tab on one target will make sure the main target comes to say Hello! however if you had a Hot on you or had a heal right away the other target(S) would veer off to Other Members/Pets unless you multi Tabbed of course, or kicked in lunging strike then Threatning rush
Wow's Druid had the best tank ever TBH Roar!
Lotro Had @ chance of B/P/E
Teras Block Ability (Stand Fast IIRC) is very similar to GF however was awesome in comparision to ours, more ablity to Absorb Damage easier to replenish
F-F ARR had some ok defence tactics also
1: Animation for Enforced Threat could do with being Quicker,
2: Could do with extending Threatning Rush to +10 metres
3: Add a feat to make Lunging strike AoE _1 _2 _3 _4 _5 less damage of course
Hello, I would like to see a tab ability as a counter attack, which would help better control when the masses or improve the guard meter..... including an ability like wall of stell with which lose mobility but gain more def or which block the pass of mob toward to the other partys members... or another one that enables it to better the role of tanking
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twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
edited November 2013
Change Tab for the GF in the following manner:
Your first Tab mark per encounter is an enhanced mark that will not be removed until that target delivers "X" amount of damage to the GF or "Y" amount of time has passed. That mark reduces the enemies damage to anyone else in your party as they focus their rage upon the GF.
All other Tab marked effects are in place, and any other enemy tab marked while this enhanced mark is in place will me marked as normal.
Once the enhanced mark wears off, the next mark placed will be enhanced (perhaps there is an internal cooldown on EM as well).
Additional thouhts:
Enemies under the effect of normal GF/GWF marks and within "Z" feet of an enhanced marked foe will also be under the effect of reduced damage until they get their normal mark removed (via attacking the mark"er").
Gives Tab mark a little more umph, makes it a little more viable in PvP, and does not remove the ability to tab mark multiple targets. As such, it doesn't take away from anything that a GF currently does, it simply enhances our ability to make it slightly more useful.
I am not a fan of the swordmaster paragon for the guardian fighter. I tried it on an epic pirate king run, specced as a conqueror, with very good gear on a character that I normally fall asleep tanking the pirate king with. The paragon offers absolutely nothing to protectors, tacticians, or conquerors. I was so useless that I respecced mid run. The whole experience left me feeling like the devs are just too lazy to come up with a real second paragon for the guardian fighter. My damage numbers were less than that of the iron vanguard. The single target burst you get may be nice for pvp but that is the only guardians that will even consider the swordmaster. However losing font line surge, and trample the fallen, along with not really being able to fit knights valor well into the mix, will also limit those builds.
The upcoming changes, along with this one, just made me lose faith in Cryptic. They cannot seem to balance PvE group content at all, and do not seem to understand how to balance classes. Stuff has been broken for so long, yet they introduce more broken stuff. Taking away the knock off mechanics in TotS and CN (end fight) yet not adjusting the boss to be any easier or the adds to be any weaker, is just lame. The Dwarf King has been this way from day one. Take a balanced group in and you are meat. But replace one or both fighters with wizards or rogues and you are good to go. Do any of the devs actually play the game? I mean besides PvP, because that sure does seem to get balanced just fine... Do the devs go out there and play in balanced groups? Or do they just grant themselves the best gear and never have to go try and get a tier one weapon in grey wolf den, in all tier one gear with nothing but rank 5 enchants and a blue weapon? Or do they go into epic dread vault with nothing but tier two gear, a tier one weapon, and rank 7 enchants? The answer is clearly no...
If this game were launched today, without the side gear progression path of PvP or the Sharandar filler, 90% of players would not be able to progress in the game to get the gear. The original game progression, PvE only, never has been balanced and still is not. Perhaps the devs should keep working on the existing content. They should look at the # of kills on grey wolf den and mad dragon in tier one only gear. Look at the number of final boss kills in epic dread vault in castle never, in any level of gear, and then look at the class distribution in those groups and they will struggle to find a balanced group. Only the very best of the very best can do this. Just one average player on the wrong class and the boss does not die. It is obvious that the devs have no clue what it is like to be the average Neverwinter player because they never play it like we do.
All of these changes, this entire patch, needs a lot of work and is nowhere near ready. Swordmaster is garbage, throw it on the scrap heap along with the entire fighter class which is pretty much useless in the meta game.
I am not a fan of the swordmaster paragon for the guardian fighter. I tried it on an epic pirate king run, specced as a conqueror, with very good gear on a character that I normally fall asleep tanking the pirate king with. The paragon offers absolutely nothing to protectors, tacticians, or conquerors. I was so useless that I respecced mid run. The whole experience left me feeling like the devs are just too lazy to come up with a real second paragon for the guardian fighter. My damage numbers were less than that of the iron vanguard. The single target burst you get may be nice for pvp but that is the only guardians that will even consider the swordmaster. However losing font line surge, and trample the fallen, along with not really being able to fit knights valor well into the mix, will also limit those builds.
The upcoming changes, along with this one, just made me lose faith in Cryptic. They cannot seem to balance PvE group content at all, and do not seem to understand how to balance classes. Stuff has been broken for so long, yet they introduce more broken stuff. Taking away the knock off mechanics in TotS and CN (end fight) yet not adjusting the boss to be any easier or the adds to be any weaker, is just lame. The Dwarf King has been this way from day one. Take a balanced group in and you are meat. But replace one or both fighters with wizards or rogues and you are good to go. Do any of the devs actually play the game? I mean besides PvP, because that sure does seem to get balanced just fine... Do the devs go out there and play in balanced groups? Or do they just grant themselves the best gear and never have to go try and get a tier one weapon in grey wolf den, in all tier one gear with nothing but rank 5 enchants and a blue weapon? Or do they go into epic dread vault with nothing but tier two gear, a tier one weapon, and rank 7 enchants? The answer is clearly no...
If this game were launched today, without the side gear progression path of PvP or the Sharandar filler, 90% of players would not be able to progress in the game to get the gear. The original game progression, PvE only, never has been balanced and still is not. Perhaps the devs should keep working on the existing content. They should look at the # of kills on grey wolf den and mad dragon (edit: mad dragon may be easier now, i know normal is, but not sure on epic, it has been a while since anyone in my guild has even had the deire to try it, and that is when many never had a single kill in there) in tier one only gear. Look at the number of final boss kills in epic dread vault in castle never, in any level of gear, and then look at the class distribution in those groups and they will struggle to find a balanced group. Only the very best of the very best can do this. Just one average player on the wrong class and the boss does not die. It is obvious that the devs have no clue what it is like to be the average Neverwinter player because they never play it like we do.
All of these changes, this entire patch, needs a lot of work and is nowhere near ready. Swordmaster is garbage, throw it on the scrap heap along with the entire fighter class which is pretty much useless in the meta game.
Removing the ability to mark, especially multiple targets, from the Guardian Fighter will greatly diminish their effectiveness in PvE.
Perhaps you missed my previous posts. I never said to remove marking. In fact, I advocated both Fighter classes having it through use of other powers. Keep the AoE marking of Threatening Rush, and add mark to WMS. If deemed needed, add a single target mark to an existing power too. The GF still has an extra AoE taunt but both fighters are useful as tanks in PvE.
What I am advocating is changing it from our TAB ability and moving it to an aspect of our attacks so we can get a TAB ability that works in both PvP and PvE. Something bringing us on par with GWF's using Iron Vanguard so we can avoid the inevitable nerfing of GWF's that is sure to follow because of the new paragons effect on PvP.
Your first Tab mark per encounter is an enhanced mark that will not be removed until that target delivers "X" amount of damage to the GF or "Y" amount of time has passed. That mark reduces the enemies damage to anyone else in your party as they focus their rage upon the GF.
All other Tab marked effects are in place, and any other enemy tab marked while this enhanced mark is in place will me marked as normal.
Once the enhanced mark wears off, the next mark placed will be enhanced (perhaps there is an internal cooldown on EM as well).
Additional thouhts:
Enemies under the effect of normal GF/GWF marks and within "Z" feet of an enhanced marked foe will also be under the effect of reduced damage until they get their normal mark removed (via attacking the mark"er").
Gives Tab mark a little more umph, makes it a little more viable in PvP, and does not remove the ability to tab mark multiple targets. As such, it doesn't take away from anything that a GF currently does, it simply enhances our ability to make it slightly more useful.
Because you seem to don't check:
Iron Guard 1 With every melee hit on an enemy, you reduce its damage by 2%. Maximum 10% damage reduction.
Daunting Challenge 5 Marked targets now deal 2/4/6/8/10% less damage to your allies, but still deal full damage to you.
@all other: Don't make suggestion that already exist as feats!
@lordgallen: If you can look at this and answer the question there i have, that would be great!
I agree: Another damage decreasing ability is simply redundant, just like an improved aggro mark. If you want to focus on these two, you have plenty of options within the already existing powers and feats.
Iron Guard 1 With every melee hit on an enemy, you reduce its damage by 2%. Maximum 10% damage reduction.
Daunting Challenge 5 Marked targets now deal 2/4/6/8/10% less damage to your allies, but still deal full damage to you.
@all other: Don't make suggestion that already exist as feats!
@lordgallen: If you can look at this and answer the question there i have, that would be great!
Because you don't seem to check (and are more than a little condescending)...
The question came about as to how to improve a GF's Tab ability (or change it completely), while others countered by pointing out it would not be good to give up the ability all together as ranged tab has a lot of PvE use (though not much PvP use).
Therefore, I begun mapping out a way to both retain the Tab marking ability, and to make it more beneficial. Does it mimick other abilities in a way? Sure. Is that a logical reason to dismiss the idea? No, absolutely not. By that logic, you should toss Tab Marking in the trash all together because there are already other powers that allow a GF to mark enemies.
If you want to improve on the idea, add to it etc. feel free to toss your ideas around. If you want to be condescending and dismissive for no reason, go ahead and keep it to yourself.
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twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
I agree: Another damage decreasing ability is simply redundant, just like an improved aggro mark. If you want to focus on these two, you have plenty of options within the already existing powers and feats.
It could be beneficial in at least two ways. First, you wouldn't need to slot Daunting Challenge if you didn't want to, and you could still reduce damage to particular enemies. Second, the possibility could exist for it to stack, and thus, be more beneficial to the party. The possibility also exists for it to alter it's effect when used in conjunction. The point is, there are ways to make the GF Tab ability more useful while still retaining it's current benefit.
Comments
I agree with this, but with 2 boss tanking exceptions:
1) MC 2nd & 3rd bosses - Very FEW classes outside of GF can take these 2 head on constantly. If you've done it without a GF, GREAT for you, but I find more need it than don't. Knights Valor on 3rd boss is a WIN too.
2) Dwarf King in GG - Works best when kept in place by a GF away from adds.
Having done PK to CN, GF is not needed on boss and the mechanics just need to change.
Prediction: Giving Vanguard to GWF's is gonna HAMSTER off the community 2 fold...
GF's are gonna QQ quit PvE.
Everyone else i gonna QQ quit PvP.
Cryptic BALANCED the classes (for PvE)... PWE scrambled them for both.
I know MC. But the second boss is not the bad as all think. His 3 Hit can easy avoided. The long lasting side blow hit can avoid. Yes it's easier, but except that it's not impossible for nearly all classes. If they don't fix Slam 1 hit Val, the third boss is playable with GWF too. I don't run Dwarf King one time, so i can't say if there is a tank really needed.
I say it with this: "The most are harmless idiot ones" most != all. A GF is replaceable with a GWF or even a TR. With the TR they make to much exception. ItC is to powerful for TR. DF grant CC-immunity too. Daily for complete immunity. An attack that ports them behind the target = avoid incoming hits. Deflection severity of 75%, that is with a deflection build really good. Additionally the 3 dodges. Sorry, it exist no boss current in this game, that require a GF. The bad thing is, that every attempt to make a boss harder, the only who will pay for it is the GF, because he lack mobility/damage immunities. Block is something that is great, but if you have to run, any faster/ranged attacker enemy will kill you. Faster attacks mean faster blockkill. The balance between blockrecovery and attackspeed/chance of attacker is fast maxed. If boss get a OS attack with long animation = dodge/damage immunity skill activation of the other classes(or only run out of the maybe AoE). Who have to eat the attack? The poor GF. Ranged attacks? Only help if they can truly OS All except GF.(but then again rare conditions like high deflection/hp can safe the other classes and will only hurt GF) The only way to make for me a boss fight hard is that the environment attack too.(like in Gnarl) Then the boss need a shield that is small in area, but avoid him from any attackdamage outside of it(shieldlike even) that don't break with an attack. OS boss with fast attacking ranged not shown Attack, fast speed and 5 hitcombo. Then we maybe get a bossfight that break CW dominance and we need a GF.
Agreed, that's also how I imagined how Block could work if tied to the Stamina Meter, where GF's would raise their shields up, Stamina slowly depletes, but I've been imagining it to not deplete faster even while taking damage. This way, GF's can still soak up a decent amount of damage regardless of how strong the strikes against him will be. Putting the shield down will cause the GF to regain his stamina again and prepare for the next volley of strikes. It should be a decent improvement to the Block Mechanic since Block tends to be broken a lot at its current state.
And yes! Force Taunt on TAB would be heavenly, right? I've been thinking of it like a Taunt where enemies will attack you regardless of the Threat generated by your allies and your aggro generated, where as one tick of TAB would Mark enemies like usual. It's a TAB skill so it should be at least this good.
This is brilliant and I would love to see the Tab (and Block) mechanics be changed to this.
Kaylee Krankenwagen, level 60 GF | Tavandruil Wayfinder, level 49 GWF | Aldith Langley, level 51 HR
Have to disagree. T-Rush beats Iron in Trash/AoE situations every time. The "specific" situations you are referring to are Wizzies throwing Singus, Steal Times and Entangling Forces all over the place. As a GF, you follow up these spells by rushing into the gathered mobs, mark them while they can't attack you and provide your party with the damage debuff. Tide of Iron is strictly single target and with the fixed Aggravating Strike you'll be able to boost your party DPS by ~37%, which is nice!
I don't care about PvP, that's an entirely different game.
In PvE, you only have 2 situations:
1) Singularity gathered mobs
2) Gathering them yourself
Whether it be the stun effects of Ice Golums, the transformation circle used by Witches, the webs of spiders etc; Tide of Iron is ABSOLUTELY essential when you are controlling a boss room of mobs as you need to block said specific attacks. If you really, REALLY think you are going to have all the shield you need to block every critical attack without using either Enforced Threat (regen) or Tide of Iron when in the middle of 20 adds, then you have not played GF enough. THAT is what I am talking about.
Situationally, trash between bosses, kiting in places like FH and grinding areas can be had using Threatening Rush, I do it myself. However, the boss fights are where it counts and there is where you utilize lunging strike to get where you need to be and Tide of Iron to keep your shield meter up enough to prevent them from taking you down or straying off to a party member.
Making Marking Better;
1) Make it depend on you attacking the target or at least being within your reach of them not on the target hitting you. So you mark the target and as long as you fight it/stay close to it the target suffers penalties to attacks on your allies (that don't include you ideally).
2) Get rid of the animation, or change it to a fast weapon thrust at the target. Seriously the main reason I don't use Tab marking in fights is I can make 1 to 2 attacks in the time it takes to run the marking animation.
3) Give GFs a threat zone based on a meter (like Divinity/Stealth/Unstoppable) that scales off the damage their allies take. The more damage that their allies take the more threat the GF generates, when the bar is full all enemies in the zone get marked.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
He was talking about PvE.
I don't know where you get your information but every GF I know considers Tide of Iron a situational skill.
There's only two situations it is put into my bar: The final Bosses of Malabog's and Temple of the Spider.
Reason: It's a single target debuff.
Singularities in most situations are my best friend as a GF. Why?
Threatening Rush into the piled adds, the marks will generate threat. Then use enforced threat and/or Aggravating Strike and those mobs will be glued to you. On top of that damaging with a GF is a major means to generate threat so big piles is cleave heaven.
Singularities assist threat generation in most cases and Threatening Rush is a major factor to that. Tide of Iron is a single target debuff. it really doesn't do anything for me whatsoever outside of a very few, select boss fights where I am tanking. In the vast majority of the game I am 'tanking' trash so I couldn't care less about debuffing them. I can simply use cleave and generate a ton more threat and damage than will be noticed from wasting a swing on a single target debuff.
Feedback: Weapon Master's Strike
I agree this power replacing Threatening Rush is a major reason this won't see use in PvE. Heck even if you give Weapon Master Strike an AoE Mark I still don't think it will make up for the loss of mobility which I feel is just as important as the AoE Mark.
Feedback: Tab Mark
This does need some love. It's 100% useless in solo combat and in PvP but it's essential to Dungeons. Experienced GF's will use Tab Marking as much as they use their encounter powers to make sure any stray mobs that are out of range are quickly pulled away from other players as long as those players know not to retaliate.
I'm not entirely sure what the solution is. The best bet is likely to make the tab mark last for X amount of seconds regardless of attacks and apply a more severe debuff but please do not make it single target and overly complicated. The issue with the tab marking is in it's effectiveness, if you make it more effective for more varied situations you should even need to tinker with the complexity. In fact a slight boost (and I stress single target is a punishment, not a boost) but also up the complexity then people may still opt not to use it as often as they should.
Thank you. That directly deals with my point #3. We GF's appreciate that.
Any chance of point #4 to make the animation of Villain's Menace uninterruptible?
Thanks.
Iron Guard 1 With every melee hit on an enemy, you reduce its damage by 2%. Maximum 10% damage reduction.
(yeah it dependent on attack your target, but the suggestion to take less damage or only for teammates interrupt this feat efficiency)
And for all clear enough:
Daunting Challenge 5 Marked targets now deal 2/4/6/8/10% less damage to your allies, but still deal full damage to you.
Exact the suggestion maked.
So NO Damage reduce while mob marked. It already exist feats for this use.
And for all:
Mark: last 20s while marked mob don't hit you. Blocked attacks don't count for hit. Grant +8% damage.
If they remove the hitclause(mean that it stay permanent until its duration run out) would help a lot and avoid such blanks posts i read above me...
Making it to an AoE mark... i don't know if this is so good. I use it for pulling few mobs, not the whole groups. So if the aggro radius increase with this AoE marking, then no. If only all aggro mobs are marked within the normal aggro initial of marking, then yes do it.
This will create an always a impossible balance issue between the classes. When you nerf GWF's to balance PvP you will be robbing them of a role in PvE. When you re-boost them for PvE, they will be OP at the high end for PvP. Neither situation is good.
Suggestion:
Change the GF's TAB ability completely to something that is valuable in both PvP and PvE on par with the tremendous PvP survivability powers of Unstoppable and Dodge. Such as a resistance boost of an additional 20% and give it a similar use and reuse timer/condition as the GWF's Unstoppable. Then you could give all Fighter classes Mark through things like Threatening Rush and WMS.
As it is now, Blocking is nice but not great. It is approximately as useful in PvP as the Sprint of the GWF. But, Unstoppable is far superior to Block, Sprint and Mark. This is where your balancing disconnect will always keep the Dev team pulling out their hair.
That is assumiing you balance for PvP alone.
Removing the ability to mark, especially multiple targets, from the Guardian Fighter will greatly diminish their effectiveness in PvE. The number one reason the GWF lacks so much love in PvE is because they really don't have a hard coded role in the mechanics. They do damage but not enough to shred adds faster or better than a wizard and that is likely dfue to the lack of CC more than anything else.
The Guardian Fighter has a clearly defined role but many upper end players will simply toss them asside anyway for similar reasons to why GWF.
Basically GF's have the ability to control adds and keep them in piles or at least similar locations but not the ability to do a lot of damage. GWF's have the ability to do damage but lack the ability to pile mobs up on their own. So each class can and does get tossed to the wayside in favor of another wizard who can do both.
The only reason a GF comes out slightly better is because a GF can keep the wizard alive between singularities while the GWF can't. Taking out one of their major threat generators based on comparing the two classes in PvP will result in GF's becoming far less useful in PvE.
I really don't want to see the Tab Mark heavilly changed. It's great as it is for group content PvE. What it needs is a buff to make it more attractive in PvP and in solo content. I think the best location to garner some inspiration from is from the PHB1 because marking is far more effective in PnP and doesn't generate 'threat' as much as it causes such serious debuffs that the DM is inclined to have those monsters attack the Guardian Fighter.
The only problem is that since the game is so heavy with add fest fights the GF in PnP and Neverwinter play quite differently. GF's in PnP are the elite and boss tanks but in Neverwinter they are the add tanks and until the develoipers change fights to be less DPS add fest fights any changes to try to benefit a GF boss tank will actually be a detriment more than a benefit.
Perhaps instead of a static damage debuff there should be a 10% chance to outright miss and perhaps a defense debuff so the effects could be more noticeable?
Players can easilly overlook debuffs especially in the heat of battle but if they start seeing 'miss' while attacking the enemy rogue I think they would get the point real fast in PvP. On top of that in PvE marks should last 10 seconds regardless of who the mob attacks and the defense debuff will increase the GF's damage allowing for improved threat generation and increased damage for the party as a whole.
i also think single taunt in better and i also use it to taunt single (sometime it doesnt work couse near mobs come with the taunted one). Often my teammayes ask me to taunt that big one but come with others mobs and my friends conplain againt me but it isnt my fault lol. Now the frase "taunt that one" it is intended to a TR (always TR...) that can taunt better with kives, in fact usually i see that obly the hitten mob come.
So, i think to improove taunt it could be good:
- make it last 20 seconds in any case
- make it that only tha taunted mobs come and not the near ones
EDIT
i think in this thread we are speakin too much about taunt only; sure it is important, but GF have a lot of ptoblems coming with module 2 and old ones, so don't forget them^^
GF's block is fine, for those of you that can't maintain a good block meter, learn what red circles you can just walk out of and that do no need to be blocked. This is how conquere GF's top the damage charts, not by blocking but by sidestepping. Keeping a nearly full gaurd meter all the time.
I think the mark from GF's tab should not be removed if that target hits you. It will give GF's a reason to Tab even with other marking moves like enforced threat and threatening rush. Also there needs to be more ways to take a hit and keep a target marked. Defelction would be excellent form this. If you defelct an attack from a marked target it should stay marked. You should only lose mark on a full direct hit, not from DoT's or deflected attacks.
That is intentional, my friend, and even making the tab taunt a single target won't change that.
The mark will still be applied just as it was before with bonus effects but limited to only one mark at a time. However marks in general generate threat and that threat is not mob specific so when you mark something and generate threat all mobs will see you as slightly more of an issue.
As a Guardian Fighter your goal is to have your threat rating higher than the threat of any other class in the party so most if not all things will attack you instead of the rest of your party. Every other class (except maybe the GWF) has feats which lower their threat generation while the GF has feats which increase their threat generation.
So when you mark something, it and other things in its vicinity will start to view you as a threat and move to attack you unless somebody is actively (and heavily) beating on it or something in the area.
And I do highly suggest you try to get your friends to switch roles. You'll probably find things go much smoother the other way around.
The rest of the party can easily dodge one big things attack. However if you have the attention of one big thing and ignore the twenty small things chasing after the wizard, rogue and cleric you can quickly have a major problem.
Which is why GF's such as myself see 'single target tab mark' and scream 'nooooo!!!'
Try it. I would be extremely surprised if you and your friends don't immediately sigh with relief and ask why you didn't do this sooner.
This would be correct however if a Healing Companion is healing you and you have a Hot / Or DC has a hot on you the agro/Threat this produces will go to them apart from the main agro you marked
I'll just notch this as another time that I really wish I had recordings of me playing on my GF. I have absolutely, 100% no issue maintaining threat and keeping the cleric safe. Actually if I lose threat more often than not it is to the wizards. Everybody knows about heal threat but there is also control threat as well and wizards who use Arcane Singularity when I am kiting basically sign their death certificate. Clerics, on the other hand, are more or less safe.
I really do need to take the time out to write some guides and record some videos. It would really help people understand some of the subtle tricks to playing a GF and maybe earn the class a bit more respect. However, do note, marking is simply a tool to enhance your threat generation. If you are losing threat as soon as things aren't marked there's another problem altogether. I guess I'll leave it at that and end up writing a fulll on guide one of these days.
Tab Marking is the long distance way to gain threat as long as the party knows not to attack anything they don't want attacking them back. If they don't retaliate it is already an enforced threat for the most part. Adding in any mechanic which would limit or discourage spamming marks would be a detriment.
you didnt understand. I was speaking about that siruations in which the party prefer to taunt and fight before some mobs and the the others. example: spider in MC. Often if i taunt one little one before boss foght, often also the boss come. If a tr hit one of little one with a knive, only the little one come. So i simply said in comparison to make GF single taunt as good as TR "single taunt".
so inthat situation they complain "why did you taunt tha boss?". An the next time they dodnt ask to GF to taunt, they ask to tr
I only meant to the "Initial pull" post you mentioned
Single tab on one target will make sure the main target comes to say Hello! however if you had a Hot on you or had a heal right away the other target(S) would veer off to Other Members/Pets unless you multi Tabbed of course, or kicked in lunging strike then Threatning rush
Wow's Druid had the best tank ever TBH Roar!
Lotro Had @ chance of B/P/E
Teras Block Ability (Stand Fast IIRC) is very similar to GF however was awesome in comparision to ours, more ablity to Absorb Damage easier to replenish
F-F ARR had some ok defence tactics also
1: Animation for Enforced Threat could do with being Quicker,
2: Could do with extending Threatning Rush to +10 metres
3: Add a feat to make Lunging strike AoE _1 _2 _3 _4 _5 less damage of course
Your first Tab mark per encounter is an enhanced mark that will not be removed until that target delivers "X" amount of damage to the GF or "Y" amount of time has passed. That mark reduces the enemies damage to anyone else in your party as they focus their rage upon the GF.
All other Tab marked effects are in place, and any other enemy tab marked while this enhanced mark is in place will me marked as normal.
Once the enhanced mark wears off, the next mark placed will be enhanced (perhaps there is an internal cooldown on EM as well).
Additional thouhts:
Enemies under the effect of normal GF/GWF marks and within "Z" feet of an enhanced marked foe will also be under the effect of reduced damage until they get their normal mark removed (via attacking the mark"er").
Gives Tab mark a little more umph, makes it a little more viable in PvP, and does not remove the ability to tab mark multiple targets. As such, it doesn't take away from anything that a GF currently does, it simply enhances our ability to make it slightly more useful.
The upcoming changes, along with this one, just made me lose faith in Cryptic. They cannot seem to balance PvE group content at all, and do not seem to understand how to balance classes. Stuff has been broken for so long, yet they introduce more broken stuff. Taking away the knock off mechanics in TotS and CN (end fight) yet not adjusting the boss to be any easier or the adds to be any weaker, is just lame. The Dwarf King has been this way from day one. Take a balanced group in and you are meat. But replace one or both fighters with wizards or rogues and you are good to go. Do any of the devs actually play the game? I mean besides PvP, because that sure does seem to get balanced just fine... Do the devs go out there and play in balanced groups? Or do they just grant themselves the best gear and never have to go try and get a tier one weapon in grey wolf den, in all tier one gear with nothing but rank 5 enchants and a blue weapon? Or do they go into epic dread vault with nothing but tier two gear, a tier one weapon, and rank 7 enchants? The answer is clearly no...
If this game were launched today, without the side gear progression path of PvP or the Sharandar filler, 90% of players would not be able to progress in the game to get the gear. The original game progression, PvE only, never has been balanced and still is not. Perhaps the devs should keep working on the existing content. They should look at the # of kills on grey wolf den and mad dragon in tier one only gear. Look at the number of final boss kills in epic dread vault in castle never, in any level of gear, and then look at the class distribution in those groups and they will struggle to find a balanced group. Only the very best of the very best can do this. Just one average player on the wrong class and the boss does not die. It is obvious that the devs have no clue what it is like to be the average Neverwinter player because they never play it like we do.
All of these changes, this entire patch, needs a lot of work and is nowhere near ready. Swordmaster is garbage, throw it on the scrap heap along with the entire fighter class which is pretty much useless in the meta game.
The upcoming changes, along with this one, just made me lose faith in Cryptic. They cannot seem to balance PvE group content at all, and do not seem to understand how to balance classes. Stuff has been broken for so long, yet they introduce more broken stuff. Taking away the knock off mechanics in TotS and CN (end fight) yet not adjusting the boss to be any easier or the adds to be any weaker, is just lame. The Dwarf King has been this way from day one. Take a balanced group in and you are meat. But replace one or both fighters with wizards or rogues and you are good to go. Do any of the devs actually play the game? I mean besides PvP, because that sure does seem to get balanced just fine... Do the devs go out there and play in balanced groups? Or do they just grant themselves the best gear and never have to go try and get a tier one weapon in grey wolf den, in all tier one gear with nothing but rank 5 enchants and a blue weapon? Or do they go into epic dread vault with nothing but tier two gear, a tier one weapon, and rank 7 enchants? The answer is clearly no...
If this game were launched today, without the side gear progression path of PvP or the Sharandar filler, 90% of players would not be able to progress in the game to get the gear. The original game progression, PvE only, never has been balanced and still is not. Perhaps the devs should keep working on the existing content. They should look at the # of kills on grey wolf den and mad dragon (edit: mad dragon may be easier now, i know normal is, but not sure on epic, it has been a while since anyone in my guild has even had the deire to try it, and that is when many never had a single kill in there) in tier one only gear. Look at the number of final boss kills in epic dread vault in castle never, in any level of gear, and then look at the class distribution in those groups and they will struggle to find a balanced group. Only the very best of the very best can do this. Just one average player on the wrong class and the boss does not die. It is obvious that the devs have no clue what it is like to be the average Neverwinter player because they never play it like we do.
All of these changes, this entire patch, needs a lot of work and is nowhere near ready. Swordmaster is garbage, throw it on the scrap heap along with the entire fighter class which is pretty much useless in the meta game.
Perhaps you missed my previous posts. I never said to remove marking. In fact, I advocated both Fighter classes having it through use of other powers. Keep the AoE marking of Threatening Rush, and add mark to WMS. If deemed needed, add a single target mark to an existing power too. The GF still has an extra AoE taunt but both fighters are useful as tanks in PvE.
What I am advocating is changing it from our TAB ability and moving it to an aspect of our attacks so we can get a TAB ability that works in both PvP and PvE. Something bringing us on par with GWF's using Iron Vanguard so we can avoid the inevitable nerfing of GWF's that is sure to follow because of the new paragons effect on PvP.
Because you seem to don't check:
Iron Guard 1 With every melee hit on an enemy, you reduce its damage by 2%. Maximum 10% damage reduction.
Daunting Challenge 5 Marked targets now deal 2/4/6/8/10% less damage to your allies, but still deal full damage to you.
@all other: Don't make suggestion that already exist as feats!
@lordgallen: If you can look at this and answer the question there i have, that would be great!
This stat don't increase the AP gain. This or the Frontline Surge gain not more than 10% of max AP(with over 22% Ap additionally gain).
Because you don't seem to check (and are more than a little condescending)...
The question came about as to how to improve a GF's Tab ability (or change it completely), while others countered by pointing out it would not be good to give up the ability all together as ranged tab has a lot of PvE use (though not much PvP use).
Therefore, I begun mapping out a way to both retain the Tab marking ability, and to make it more beneficial. Does it mimick other abilities in a way? Sure. Is that a logical reason to dismiss the idea? No, absolutely not. By that logic, you should toss Tab Marking in the trash all together because there are already other powers that allow a GF to mark enemies.
If you want to improve on the idea, add to it etc. feel free to toss your ideas around. If you want to be condescending and dismissive for no reason, go ahead and keep it to yourself.
It could be beneficial in at least two ways. First, you wouldn't need to slot Daunting Challenge if you didn't want to, and you could still reduce damage to particular enemies. Second, the possibility could exist for it to stack, and thus, be more beneficial to the party. The possibility also exists for it to alter it's effect when used in conjunction. The point is, there are ways to make the GF Tab ability more useful while still retaining it's current benefit.