Very valid arguments have been made for coal wards costing 400k in the future. I will now take out a mortgage and buy all coal wards in the game.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. As the demand will decrease and I guess that the supply will stay the same (I do not think, that Cryptic will change the loot table for the 7-day celestial coffers). If the demand decreases and the supply stays the same, the price should go down.
Proud member of Dragon Clan - German Gaming Community
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petestarksMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
40 pages now of "feedback".... Almost all of it being about how much people don't want the system and how much everyone is quickly noticing it is nothing more than a VERY shameless cash grab. Even the mods are posting (repeatedly!) on how much they dislike it! While they are not employees they are as close as we can get here on this mortal coil...
What more should it take than the mods hating it, almost every post I read hating it, any form of math and logic showing it costs more.... What more needed to be said on the subject?
I have read almost every page of this nightmare and come to the conclusion that the small handful of people supporting this change are the glass have full types. Like someone could come to their house, stab their mother in the eye and they would be like... well at least they only stabbed out 1 eye? We should be thankful they took the time to come visit at all
We are dealing with some hardcore folks in denial because they are super fans or have sunk waaaaay too much money into this pit to turn back. Either way there are still so few of them they fall under the freakin margin of error in a poll!
Read: There is barely enough supports of this change to overcome the margin of error in an opinion poll! We are talking this thing has the approval rate of the US Congress...
But! Have no fear because they always listen to the players when they fix stuff right?...right?
Fuse'em if you got em folk
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uurbsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 449Bounty Hunter
[...], any form of math and logic showing it costs more.... What more needed to be said on the subject?
Show me the math and logic that the total cost will increase. And pretty please, with sugar on top, without such HAMSTER with two different prices for the same item.
Like someone could come to their house, stab their mother in the eye and they would be like... well at least they only stabbed out 1 eye?[...]
Subjective and emotional argument. Let me guess, you don't have any real, solid and objective argument for "us", what did you said, "hardcore folks in denial because they are super fans".
And sorry, only because Ambisinisterr and Zebular seam to not be interested in partaking in the inter-player tradings, that doesn't invalidate the comparison about the total cost of enchantments done by a couple of guys.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. As the demand will decrease and I guess that the supply will stay the same (I do not think, that Cryptic will change the loot table for the 7-day celestial coffers). If the demand decreases and the supply stays the same, the price should go down.
not necessarily: under new system more ppl could wanna more enchants (cause they could afford them now) and instead of selling wards some could start to store or even buy them. And ergo wards price could stay the same as now, could decrease or could increase - its just too hard to estimate now
Haven't read all of the previous posts, so this bug might have been mentioned already:
Let's say you drag a stack of 15 shards into the refinement slot and fuse them, 3 shards are used as catalysator and you receive 12 lesser enchantments, not just one. Can't imagine this is intended.
0
uurbsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 449Bounty Hunter
not necessarily: under new system more ppl could wanna more enchants (cause they could afford them now) and instead of selling wards some could start to store or even buy them. And ergo wards price could stay the same as now, could decrease or could increase - its just too hard to estimate now
Very true!
Any estimations we can do right now about the drop chance of the "Mark of Potency", enchantments, wards, runestones, shards or about how the prices in the Auction House will change, are all guesswork!
Show me the math and logic that the total cost will increase.
For someone who only fuses up to rank 6, which is probably like 80% of the player base, the math very clearly states they will be paying more since previously it was 0.
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twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
So I wanted to chime in to talk about a few of the specific issues being brought up.
First, I wanted to say that this is on the Preview shard specifically so that we can get lots of feedback, improve the system, and make sure it's hitting all of our goals. Some players have commented that the current system on Live is "fine" but we disagree - our data shows that many players are not engaging in the current system due to the frustration of using it. If the system was performing well and making everyone happy, we would not have invested all of the time and effort into improving it that we have. We're still looking at and discussing the system constantly, and one of the main areas of discussion is what it takes to Upgrade an item - meaning the AD Cost, Catalysts and Wards part of the system.
It feels like you took a system that you say people felt was frustrating, and doubled it. Did you guys hire Jay away from Blizzard? More moving pieces creates a more complex system, plus we don't gain any efficiency in refining. Give us a way to make the actual process easier. Remove one of the barriers maybe (Wards, Catalysts, Failure chance)?
Second, we want to say "oops" for not having the Catalysts in the AD store when it went up to Preview. They will be in the build that should be going up tomorrow. The intent is that enough of these will be dropping in the world (from skill nodes and bosses, mostly) that you won't need or want to buy them from the AD store, but we want to have the option there to ensure that you'll always have access to them.
Next, I wanted to talk about bag space. One of the main goals of the new system is to reduce the bag space requirements of engaging in the Refining system. We don't think there will be a reason to carry around a bag full of Enchants/Runestones anymore - you'll have the ones you want slotted in your gear and companions, and you'll use extra ones as you get them to Refine your slotted Enchants. You won't have a full set of all 9 of the basic Enchants/Runes at multiple ranks, as there is no need to try to stack them up to smash them any longer.
Instead, you'll have a handful of Catalyst items in your bag. There are 4 of them for Enchants/Runestones, you will probably only be carrying 1 or 2 of them around at a time, unless you happen to have slotted Enchants ranging from ranks 1-10 in your gear. Most people will have the majority of their slotted Enchants around the same rank, meaning you'll need a handful of the Catalysts that make sense for you current and of Refinement progression. I know that for my character on Live, I have something like 16-20 slots taken up with Enchants and Runestones at pretty much any time. On our test servers, I don't have Enchants or Runestones in my bags at all any more.
This is actually a great idea and I applaud you.
Last comment for now - we put the AD cost on Upgrading the items because we removed the (much larger) AD cost required for Unslotting them. We still want AD to play a part in the Refinement/Enchantment process, but it was a big barrier to using the system when slotting an Enchantment was such a huge commitment due to the cost of removing it. We'd rather have smaller, up front costs for Upgrading than the current large recurring costs whenever you get a new item. Having to think "if I start using this sweet new weapon I got, I have to unslot my Enchant, ugh" was a situation we were really not happy with.
You took a back end cost that we could skip on (by destroying instead of unslotting) or even help others out with by giving them the enchant if they can pay the unslot cost, and forced it on us up front. That's fine in terms of big picture for people with more time or sinking more money into the game, but it's going to put a much bigger divide between the haves and have nots and force more casual people away from the game in my opinion. Now what is a players option? If you couldn't afford the unslot cost, how can you afford to upgrade your enchants now that the cost is moving to the front end?
Now I HAVE to pay AD to upgrade, I HAVE to pay to progress in Sharandar. I haven't looked at the new area yet, do I HAVE to pay to progress there as well?
I really like this game, and I'm more than happy to drop some money in from time to time, when it's worth while, but the overall feel of this redesigned system is making me rethink that.
Purchasing a purple mount? Decent expenditure of cash, particularly since it activates account wide. Why don't bank slots do the same?
Again, we're still looking very closely at this system, so keep posting your feedback!
(Obligatory 10 character message)
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
edited November 2013
I don't hate the new system because I'm not scared of math.
I agree that everything regarding drop rates is speculative. I am willing to take them at their word that drop rates of catalysts are intended to be sufficient that the catalyst items don't need to be purchased unless the player wants to, like ID scrolls. If the highest rank ones only drop in epic dungeons, then that does put the highest level enchantments as harder to reach for players who avoid them. However, the exact same thing can be said of epic gear. You don't need it for normal solo content, and if you desperately want it anyway, you can buy it on the AH from people who run a lot of dungeons. That the drop rates of catalysts are right now quite low for people who are testing rangers A-it's still in testing and B-in the earliest content, enchants don't drop from nodes either, and I can't see these items dropping before you start getting enchantments.
Also, for personal use, you don't need that many catalysts. You might lose a couple of low rank ones, the ones intended to be common drops, on failed fuses. You'll be protecting high ranked ones with pres wards, which should remain cheap and plentiful. You will perform far fewer fusions over the lifespan of your enchantments, because you can focus on feeding into the ones you want to keep rather than trying to upgrade everything.
The main disadvantage I see with the new system is to absolutely new players who want to start feeding the rank 1 enchants they find and upgrading those from scratch. Me, I can ship my hypothetical ranger a full kit of rank 4 or 5 whatsits and feed all the HAMSTER he finds into those, instead of fiddling with the lower level stuff. I suppose the same would happen for anyone who holds to an absolutely rigid stance on not sharing resources between characters. (But if you want that kind of self-imposed limitation, then you should expect everything to be harder. That's the point, right?)
I also see it as disadvantageous to people who have been previously selling their upgraded enchants for income, due to the added overhead and inventory demands for upgrading a bunch of things you're not personally using. But you have to be prepared to adapt your selling practices to succeed at AH selling regardless, because supply and markets are changeable. And I'm afraid that having the game cater to sellers rather than players would be a poor model.
For someone who only fuses up to rank 6, which is probably like 80% of the player base, the math very clearly states they will be paying more since previously it was 0.
I don't hate the new system because I'm not scared of math.
I hate the new system because I understand math. Currently I can upgrade my enchants at zero AD cost. It might take time, but I can do it. I can't do that in the new system. I'm forced to pay AD to upgrade my enchants and no amount of math can reduce that cost to zero.
I don't hate the new system because I'm not scared of math.
The main disadvantage I see with the new system is to absolutely new players who want to start feeding the rank 1 enchants they find and upgrading those from scratch. Me, I can ship my hypothetical ranger a full kit of rank 4 or 5 whatsits and feed all the HAMSTER he finds into those, instead of fiddling with the lower level stuff.
Well as for this disadvantage - all that rank 1-2-3 which a char get while levelling is just an equivalent ov several - some tens at most - rank 4 enchants, plentiful later. So to level them is (and always was) just a waste of time and space in the bag.
Show me the math and logic that the total cost will increase. And pretty please, with sugar on top, without such HAMSTER with two different prices for the same item.
Subjective and emotional argument. Let me guess, you don't have any real, solid and objective argument for "us", what did you said, "hardcore folks in denial because they are super fans".
And sorry, only because Ambisinisterr and Zebular seam to not be interested in partaking in the inter-player tradings, that doesn't invalidate the comparison about the total cost of enchantments done by a couple of guys.
But, believe as you please.
Done some fusing on live and preview today.
Live:
Silvery from scratch= bought 4 silvery chants Rank 6 from AH= 8.2k x4 + 10 pres wards 3.9k each (succeeded on 7th)= total cost for silvery r7= 60.1k
Preview(assuming pward and chant prices will stay the same as on live, though i suspect they will go up for ranks 6+):
1 silvery r6=8.2k+ 10 pres wards(i fused on 9th this time but let's say its 7th to have fully identical situation) 3.9k each+ Refinement points 12.9k(cheapest way to achieve these is through sharandar shards so 5 cheapest shards= 1.7k each)= 44 seems cheap... but wait! i need 2 more catalysts(25k each) and a 25k upgrade fee so thats +75k extra which brings us to a total 119k
I know what you're saying now, silvery is the cheapest enchant so lets compare radiant
Live:
4 x shards for 24.1k + 10 pres wards at 3.9k (took 9 this time) = 131.5k
Preview(assuming the same prices):
24.1k + 9 pres wards at 3.9k +5 shards at 1.7k + 2x catalysts at 25k each + 25k upgrade fee= 142.7k
Way more complicated than the old system. People didn't use the old system because it took forever. This one will fail because they won't even understand it. And many of those that do don't like it anyway.
Also AD=Zen=$, remember that. Having a required catalyst AND a required AD cost makes you guys look greedy. I don't care if you are, companies have to make money too. But you don't want to look that way. Players are going from a system where if they wanted to they could refine gems without spending any AD. You will be alienating those players with this new system. And many players that did spend AD before know how it looks too.
Ditch the required AD cost. Raise the vendor cost of the catalyst if you have to. You guys should have a tight grip on the drop rate for them anyway.
Complicated and very expensive (need more inventory and need WAYYY too much AD on catalysts).
1) need less inventory actually. MUCH less
2) it was shown that it is LESS expensive also (or appr equally expensive - for some ranks)
It is a funny logic to look at AD and Marcs ('catalists') as an expenditure and to look at Wards and Shards and Enchants - as just free items. If the latter r free -why i cannot go somewhere (at AH or some vendor) and GET them for free? Why folks BUY that free shards/enchants/wards for that very AD at AH? They r free, arent they?
For someone who only fuses up to rank 6, which is probably like 80% of the player base, the math very clearly states they will be paying more since previously it was 0.
to be fair, the cost is zero if you ignore failed fusing or the consumption of preservation wards. if you're lucky to get a fused r5 to r6 on the first try with or without a preservation ward, there's still whatever fusing successes or failures you had to get your four r5s.
but the cost of free is free, right? that would include the accumulation of in-game AD.
I hate the new system because I understand math. Currently I can upgrade my enchants at zero AD cost. It might take time, but I can do it. I can't do that in the new system. I'm forced to pay AD to upgrade my enchants and no amount of math can reduce that cost to zero.
Time is money my friend. A rank 6 Dark is currently around 37-40K AD. The cost of the 18.6667 Rank 4s + the 1.5 Preservation wards is about is about 30-32K AD + 6K AD respectfully. So after AH cut, you could expect 33-36K AD.
Under the new system, you will pay 6K in upgrade AD costs, and if you use the 2 green catalysts and the 1 blue catalyst from the AD vendor, another 26K AD. So we are at 32K AD. You will probably still use 1.5 Preservation Wards for 6K AD. Our total before accounting for at least rank 4 dark and any other refinement materials is 44K AD. So here it looks a lot more expensive.
Considering you can use any enchantment for refinement, that should reduce the costs of using 16 rank 4 enchantments. Also, I highly doubt you would ever spend 25K on the blue catalyst from the AD vendor. It will be cheaper on AH and they can be farmed, though we are not exactly sure of the details yet. We have already seen that the epic ones can be farmed from the new solo dungeons. I would expect the blue catalyst to go for probably around 6-8K AD on AH, depending on availability. So the cost will more likely be around 24K AD + refinement enchantments for a rank 6. So at the end, the price of a rank 6 dark enchantment will be close to the same.
On the other hand, you will be required to either farm differently or use the AH, which you can avoid at the moment.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
rank 6 seems the most expensive under new system.
i'd suggest to devs to make costs for rank 6 a bit less expensive: 15-20k AD instead of 25k AD.
But thats just rank 6, higher r cheaper even as it is
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twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
Time is money my friend. A rank 6 Dark is currently around 37-40K AD. The cost of the 18.6667 Rank 4s + the 1.5 Preservation wards is about is about 30-32K AD + 6K AD respectfully. So after AH cut, you could expect 33-36K AD.
Under the new system, you will pay 6K in upgrade AD costs, and if you use the 2 green catalysts and the 1 blue catalyst from the AD vendor, another 26K AD. So we are at 32K AD. You will probably still use 1.5 Preservation Wards for 6K AD. Our total before accounting for at least rank 4 dark and any other refinement materials is 44K AD. So here it looks a lot more expensive.
Considering you can use any enchantment for refinement, that should reduce the costs of using 16 rank 4 enchantments. Also, I highly doubt you would ever spend 25K on the blue catalyst from the AD vendor. It will be cheaper on AH and they can be farmed, though we are not exactly sure of the details yet. We have already seen that the epic ones can be farmed from the new solo dungeons. I would expect the blue catalyst to go for probably around 6-8K AD on AH, depending on availability. So the cost will more likely be around 24K AD + refinement enchantments for a rank 6. So at the end, the price of a rank 6 dark enchantment will be close to the same.
On the other hand, you will be required to either farm differently or use the AH, which you can avoid at the moment.
I can spend my time in game running DD's and other things with friends/Guild and use my enchants that pick up along the way to fuse and improve my stats. For free. Now, refining my enchants is just one more thing that I have to throw AD at if I want to improve, where as, with the current system, I can avoid the AD cost if I desire.
Rank 6s are only expensive because people are using the AD vendor for their assumption of the catalyst cost. Do Coalescent Wards sell for 400K AD on AH? Do rank 3 enchants cost 50K AD like they cost form AD vendor right now? No. The true cost is hidden from us because we aren;t sure of the availability of catalysts and how the price will be shaped on the AH. I expect the 25K AD blue catalyst to go for quite a bit less than 25K AD on the AH. At the very least, it will be less, otherwise no one would buy it from the AH.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Show me the math and logic that the total cost will increase. And pretty please, with sugar on top, without such HAMSTER with two different prices for the same item.
Can;t really explain the colors to a blind man... but then again i dont care if u understand or not! This is a place where we can express our concerns and points of view so pls chill and type less .. ty!!
Can;t really explain the colors to a blind man... but then again i dont care if u understand or not! This is a place where we can express our concerns and points of view so pls chill and type less .. ty!!
You seem to express just some lies - like 'the new system is more expensive - math show that' or 'pretty much everyone is against'
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kolbe11Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
. . . . . Please, remove the ridiculous mandatory AD costs. I'll revisit testing and playing with the system if you do. Until then, I shall continue fusing everything I get on the live server for in its current state on Preview, it will become yet another over-priced AD sink that I shall never touch, at best.....Thanks.
^THIS.
I am fusing everything I can right now in anticipation of this massive AD sink debacle. I find this entire system to be unintuitive, unfit and unenjoyable. This system really does go against everything Cryptic promised NW Online would be (referencing Cryptic @ E3 2011) and I really disapprove of the way it is heading right now.
As others have said, there needs to be a way to reduce the costs, either by using more catalysts or more enchants. It should be treated similarly to how we purchase a hurried profession task. Further, the system is too friggin complicated for the masses... it lacks simplicity, which equates to value for me and many others on this forum. Value = Simplicity, Enjoyment. This system is none of that.
"It is said that idle hands are the Devil's tools: Idle geek hands, however, came up with gunpowder, nuclear weapons, and toilet plungers." -Illiad
I can spend my time in game running DD's and other things with friends/Guild and use my enchants that pick up along the way to fuse and improve my stats. For free. Now, refining my enchants is just one more thing that I have to throw AD at if I want to improve, where as, with the current system, I can avoid the AD cost if I desire.
It isn't free. You lose out on the opportunity cost from selling the item on the AH. So the question of costs comes down to value and whether it costs more with the old system or the new system in terms of value. You don;t avoid the AD cost, you simply give up the value in AD you could have had otherwise.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
With the cost of enchantments and slotting them, I believe it makes sense to Bind them to the account. This being said, have the enchantment able to be sent to any character that is 'Player Account' owned not able to un slot and resell so easily. This will cause a huge hit on the economy when it is launched. Making it Account Bound and able to transfer between characters allows the investment made stay with the player.
0
twstdechoMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 630Bounty Hunter
It isn't free. You lose out on the opportunity cost from selling the item on the AH. So the question of costs comes down to value and whether it costs more with the old system or the new system in terms of value. You don;t avoid the AD cost, you simply give up the value in AD you could have had otherwise.
The opportunity cost for selling the item only exists to someone who can pay the upfront cost to unsocket and if the enchant sells for enough AD to cover the unsocket cost and AH fees.
Comments
What more should it take than the mods hating it, almost every post I read hating it, any form of math and logic showing it costs more.... What more needed to be said on the subject?
I have read almost every page of this nightmare and come to the conclusion that the small handful of people supporting this change are the glass have full types. Like someone could come to their house, stab their mother in the eye and they would be like... well at least they only stabbed out 1 eye? We should be thankful they took the time to come visit at all
We are dealing with some hardcore folks in denial because they are super fans or have sunk waaaaay too much money into this pit to turn back. Either way there are still so few of them they fall under the freakin margin of error in a poll!
Read: There is barely enough supports of this change to overcome the margin of error in an opinion poll! We are talking this thing has the approval rate of the US Congress...
But! Have no fear because they always listen to the players when they fix stuff right?...right?
Fuse'em if you got em folk
Subjective and emotional argument. Let me guess, you don't have any real, solid and objective argument for "us", what did you said, "hardcore folks in denial because they are super fans".
And sorry, only because Ambisinisterr and Zebular seam to not be interested in partaking in the inter-player tradings, that doesn't invalidate the comparison about the total cost of enchantments done by a couple of guys.
But, believe as you please.
not necessarily: under new system more ppl could wanna more enchants (cause they could afford them now) and instead of selling wards some could start to store or even buy them. And ergo wards price could stay the same as now, could decrease or could increase - its just too hard to estimate now
Let's say you drag a stack of 15 shards into the refinement slot and fuse them, 3 shards are used as catalysator and you receive 12 lesser enchantments, not just one. Can't imagine this is intended.
Any estimations we can do right now about the drop chance of the "Mark of Potency", enchantments, wards, runestones, shards or about how the prices in the Auction House will change, are all guesswork!
For someone who only fuses up to rank 6, which is probably like 80% of the player base, the math very clearly states they will be paying more since previously it was 0.
(Obligatory 10 character message)
I agree that everything regarding drop rates is speculative. I am willing to take them at their word that drop rates of catalysts are intended to be sufficient that the catalyst items don't need to be purchased unless the player wants to, like ID scrolls. If the highest rank ones only drop in epic dungeons, then that does put the highest level enchantments as harder to reach for players who avoid them. However, the exact same thing can be said of epic gear. You don't need it for normal solo content, and if you desperately want it anyway, you can buy it on the AH from people who run a lot of dungeons. That the drop rates of catalysts are right now quite low for people who are testing rangers A-it's still in testing and B-in the earliest content, enchants don't drop from nodes either, and I can't see these items dropping before you start getting enchantments.
Also, for personal use, you don't need that many catalysts. You might lose a couple of low rank ones, the ones intended to be common drops, on failed fuses. You'll be protecting high ranked ones with pres wards, which should remain cheap and plentiful. You will perform far fewer fusions over the lifespan of your enchantments, because you can focus on feeding into the ones you want to keep rather than trying to upgrade everything.
The main disadvantage I see with the new system is to absolutely new players who want to start feeding the rank 1 enchants they find and upgrading those from scratch. Me, I can ship my hypothetical ranger a full kit of rank 4 or 5 whatsits and feed all the HAMSTER he finds into those, instead of fiddling with the lower level stuff. I suppose the same would happen for anyone who holds to an absolutely rigid stance on not sharing resources between characters. (But if you want that kind of self-imposed limitation, then you should expect everything to be harder. That's the point, right?)
I also see it as disadvantageous to people who have been previously selling their upgraded enchants for income, due to the added overhead and inventory demands for upgrading a bunch of things you're not personally using. But you have to be prepared to adapt your selling practices to succeed at AH selling regardless, because supply and markets are changeable. And I'm afraid that having the game cater to sellers rather than players would be a poor model.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
the only good thing is that you can reuse the enchantments more, since it cost gold to unslot.
I hate the new system because I understand math. Currently I can upgrade my enchants at zero AD cost. It might take time, but I can do it. I can't do that in the new system. I'm forced to pay AD to upgrade my enchants and no amount of math can reduce that cost to zero.
Well as for this disadvantage - all that rank 1-2-3 which a char get while levelling is just an equivalent ov several - some tens at most - rank 4 enchants, plentiful later. So to level them is (and always was) just a waste of time and space in the bag.
Done some fusing on live and preview today.
Live:
Silvery from scratch= bought 4 silvery chants Rank 6 from AH= 8.2k x4 + 10 pres wards 3.9k each (succeeded on 7th)= total cost for silvery r7= 60.1k
Preview(assuming pward and chant prices will stay the same as on live, though i suspect they will go up for ranks 6+):
1 silvery r6=8.2k+ 10 pres wards(i fused on 9th this time but let's say its 7th to have fully identical situation) 3.9k each+ Refinement points 12.9k(cheapest way to achieve these is through sharandar shards so 5 cheapest shards= 1.7k each)= 44 seems cheap... but wait! i need 2 more catalysts(25k each) and a 25k upgrade fee so thats +75k extra which brings us to a total 119k
I know what you're saying now, silvery is the cheapest enchant so lets compare radiant
Live:
4 x shards for 24.1k + 10 pres wards at 3.9k (took 9 this time) = 131.5k
Preview(assuming the same prices):
24.1k + 9 pres wards at 3.9k +5 shards at 1.7k + 2x catalysts at 25k each + 25k upgrade fee= 142.7k
Way more complicated than the old system. People didn't use the old system because it took forever. This one will fail because they won't even understand it. And many of those that do don't like it anyway.
Also AD=Zen=$, remember that. Having a required catalyst AND a required AD cost makes you guys look greedy. I don't care if you are, companies have to make money too. But you don't want to look that way. Players are going from a system where if they wanted to they could refine gems without spending any AD. You will be alienating those players with this new system. And many players that did spend AD before know how it looks too.
Ditch the required AD cost. Raise the vendor cost of the catalyst if you have to. You guys should have a tight grip on the drop rate for them anyway.
1) need less inventory actually. MUCH less
2) it was shown that it is LESS expensive also (or appr equally expensive - for some ranks)
It is a funny logic to look at AD and Marcs ('catalists') as an expenditure and to look at Wards and Shards and Enchants - as just free items. If the latter r free -why i cannot go somewhere (at AH or some vendor) and GET them for free? Why folks BUY that free shards/enchants/wards for that very AD at AH? They r free, arent they?
to be fair, the cost is zero if you ignore failed fusing or the consumption of preservation wards. if you're lucky to get a fused r5 to r6 on the first try with or without a preservation ward, there's still whatever fusing successes or failures you had to get your four r5s.
but the cost of free is free, right? that would include the accumulation of in-game AD.
Time is money my friend. A rank 6 Dark is currently around 37-40K AD. The cost of the 18.6667 Rank 4s + the 1.5 Preservation wards is about is about 30-32K AD + 6K AD respectfully. So after AH cut, you could expect 33-36K AD.
Under the new system, you will pay 6K in upgrade AD costs, and if you use the 2 green catalysts and the 1 blue catalyst from the AD vendor, another 26K AD. So we are at 32K AD. You will probably still use 1.5 Preservation Wards for 6K AD. Our total before accounting for at least rank 4 dark and any other refinement materials is 44K AD. So here it looks a lot more expensive.
Considering you can use any enchantment for refinement, that should reduce the costs of using 16 rank 4 enchantments. Also, I highly doubt you would ever spend 25K on the blue catalyst from the AD vendor. It will be cheaper on AH and they can be farmed, though we are not exactly sure of the details yet. We have already seen that the epic ones can be farmed from the new solo dungeons. I would expect the blue catalyst to go for probably around 6-8K AD on AH, depending on availability. So the cost will more likely be around 24K AD + refinement enchantments for a rank 6. So at the end, the price of a rank 6 dark enchantment will be close to the same.
On the other hand, you will be required to either farm differently or use the AH, which you can avoid at the moment.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
i'd suggest to devs to make costs for rank 6 a bit less expensive: 15-20k AD instead of 25k AD.
But thats just rank 6, higher r cheaper even as it is
I can spend my time in game running DD's and other things with friends/Guild and use my enchants that pick up along the way to fuse and improve my stats. For free. Now, refining my enchants is just one more thing that I have to throw AD at if I want to improve, where as, with the current system, I can avoid the AD cost if I desire.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Can;t really explain the colors to a blind man... but then again i dont care if u understand or not! This is a place where we can express our concerns and points of view so pls chill and type less .. ty!!
They r not able to afford rank 7+ under the current system?
You seem to express just some lies - like 'the new system is more expensive - math show that' or 'pretty much everyone is against'
^THIS.
I am fusing everything I can right now in anticipation of this massive AD sink debacle. I find this entire system to be unintuitive, unfit and unenjoyable. This system really does go against everything Cryptic promised NW Online would be (referencing Cryptic @ E3 2011) and I really disapprove of the way it is heading right now.
As others have said, there needs to be a way to reduce the costs, either by using more catalysts or more enchants. It should be treated similarly to how we purchase a hurried profession task. Further, the system is too friggin complicated for the masses... it lacks simplicity, which equates to value for me and many others on this forum. Value = Simplicity, Enjoyment. This system is none of that.
It isn't free. You lose out on the opportunity cost from selling the item on the AH. So the question of costs comes down to value and whether it costs more with the old system or the new system in terms of value. You don;t avoid the AD cost, you simply give up the value in AD you could have had otherwise.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
The opportunity cost for selling the item only exists to someone who can pay the upfront cost to unsocket and if the enchant sells for enough AD to cover the unsocket cost and AH fees.
I am a bad person, cant help myself ...