Currently, if you are patient enough, you can fuse your own R9's and perfects for free(coffers for coal wards, farm tons of shards and enchants). With the proposed system you cannot, regardless of how many shards you farm, you will need AD.
I believe this is the crux of the issue with the new system. Previously, there was a path of no AD cost to upgrade enchantments. It was time consuming, yes, but it was absolutely free.
In the new system, there is absolutely no option for a no AD cost upgrade.
. . . . . I have never paid a single AD to refine any of my enchantments, and never will. If you are, then you're doing it wrong.
. . . . . AD sinks? Oh geeze... let's see... Transmutation, Wondrous Bazaar, Sharandar/Campaign System, Sharandar Vendors, Mount Upgrading, Companion Upgrading, Enchant Removal, Companion Renaming, Auction House (Not really a "sink," but sure as the Nine Hells feels like one), and the list goes on. Let's also not forget to mention the constant influx of things for Zen that entice one to spend ADs in the Exchange. Enough is enough. The monetization of this game is through the roof for being a free to play game. One item in the Zen shop can easily cost as much, if not more, than a brand new game out of the box.
. . . . . Poor marketing. Greedy marketing. I wish they would take the working sentiment in their Eastern market that Less Sell More instead of thinking More Sells More here in the West. Completely backwards. Go to a Chinese or Korean free to play game based in that respective region and it's literally all nickles and dimes. Come to the Americas and it's all tens of dollars. I'm tired of it.
100% agreed, man how I hate the asian business model. People need to know that in the americas, even in Europe it works different. That's why in my first post, I asked if the company want to see their servers empty. It's not drama or anything like that, just the truth. I could quote lots of games that failed here because of this kind of business model, but it's against the rules.
Why they just do this:
- Sell packs of things on different levels of prices;
- Sell more fashion items that people will love it and buy;
- Sell more companions;
There are lots of ideas of this kind of things, I can't understand the AD sink
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
0
Options
truelokasterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1Arc User
. . . . . I'm sorry, I am not paying millions of AD for enchanting. That it down right stupid. There are far too many AD sinks in this game already. I have loved this game with a passion unlike any other and I absolutely love everything else about Module 2 but this enchantment system is a game stopper for me. One AD sink change too far. You should be removing/reducing some of these AD sinks, not adding to them. I am still rather peeved about having to spend AD to transmute... now also to enchant? No way in the Nine Hells.
. . . . . I don't raise my dissatisfaction much, as I am usually happy or content. This is too much. Far too much. Please do reconsider this system or at least think about the ramifications this will cause and the reason why your figures show players weren't removing enchantments.
. . . . . While I'm at it, please also look at all these other over-priced AD sinks in the game and do something about them too. Yes, I am upset, yes I am sick, yes I am not a happy consumer.
For quite a while I was (and somewhat still am) a huge supporter and would defend this game from anyone that played for a while and complained about it being an money/AD sink. Today I feel I lost this battle and that I'm actually advocating for a game company that could not care less about it's player base. I love all about this module, but I feel I kept an blind eye for several things that should ad could be fixed like companions and mounts upgrade costs.
If this goes live, I'll regret my Hero/Guardian/Knight of the Feywild investment in this travesty of what could have been a great Free to play MMO.
I believe this is the crux of the issue with the new system. Previously, there was a path of no AD cost to upgrade enchantments. It was time consuming, yes, but it was absolutely free.
In the new system, there is absolutely no option for a no AD cost upgrade.
Correct, that is my sole objection with regards the new system.
The question is, can AD be added into the system somewhere without being a requirement.
Edit: I've found another objection. If the tool tip is correct then the blue catalysts (mark of potency and mark of union), and above I guess, are only found in epic dungeons (or purchasable). My bad I guess for not doing dungeons. The reality is I don't really need high level enchants, or any enchants at all for how I play.
0
Options
katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
I have never paid a single AD to refine any of my enchantments, and never will. If you are, then you're doing it wrong.
So you never used any wards? And I'm the one doing it wrong, good one. Or what, you think that if you got them for free that means they are not worth any AD?
Who the **** buys anything with AD from the vendors. What, PE teleport scrolls and cats? Most of Sharandar campaign is one-time payment only. Transmutation
No impact on gameplay, your choice to waste money. Enchant Removal
Which nobody uses. Companion Renaming
Want some more straws to grasp at? Auction House
Not a sink except for the 10% cut. Let's also not forget to mention the constant influx of things for Zen that entice one to spend ADs in the Exchange.
Not a sink either. Do you even know what a sink is?
and the list goes on. Enough is enough.
The list doesn't go anywhere.
And really, barely anyone uses the companion/mount upgrades either because their costs are ridiculous. If anything, this system would provide the first real AD sink to the game and counteract inflation.
THe current system is VERY needlessly complicated, HOWEVER! I think with small tweaking it could be really cool
Im not sure the exact method of gaining the catalysts... Maybe they drop, maybe they dont. What I would suggest is that you guys do one or the other...
I like the RP idea, throw random <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in, it gets RP and get enough and it levels... This is a cool idea.... What makes it suck is the catalysts AND the % to fuse... I feel like if it were JUST one or the other that would be fine, but not both....
ALTERNATE METHOD OF FUSING:
Another Idea could be to give like 1 RP for each enemy killed within X levels of your character. You can speed up the process by throwing in other enchants, once it hits enough RP to level, you can fuse at a % of success, if you fail you lose like 10-25% RP or something...
That way it promotes PVE play alot to lvl, if you want to fast track it (most efficient way) you grab other enchants to add some RP to then work on fusing.
Each level higher is 4x the one before as is now, so if a R7 is 100,000 RP thats either 100k kills OR say 3x R6s and 50k kills for a CHANCE to fuse. Failure results in 10% lost RP putting you back to 90k RP.
This way players have multiple methods of getting items. the hard way = farm. The easy way = fuse. This makes it easier not harder to do...
A leveling system could be REALLY fun and I will guarantee, make it a BIG enough number for each level and people will still buy the items. People are very impatient, but this rewards players that DO play... The other advantage of this ssytem is its realyl easy to release R11 R12 enchants as well, you can keep it going.....
0
Options
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Who the **** buys anything with AD from the vendors.
No impact on gameplay, your choice to waste money.
...Which nobody uses.
...Do you even know what a sink is?
And really, barely anyone uses the companion/mount upgrades either because their costs are ridiculous. If anything, this system would provide the first real AD sink to the game and counteract inflation.
I could ask you the same question about whether you know what an AD sink is or not.
The entire point was the AD sinks are too much money. They are so overpriced it encourages people to not use them.
That doesn't mean they're not sinks. They are set up to be sinks. They fail.
And the enchantment removals not being used it the point...stupidly overpriced.
But what they are doing is taking the option to not use it and mandate it. That's not a sink. That's an unavoidable fee to play.
You can avoid sinks. They are there to remove AD and other currencies from the market to prevent inflation....which doesn't happen due to them all being horribly overpriced. That doesn't mean they aren't set up to be sinks or that this change is acceptable.
The correct approach, in all honesty, would have been to keep the AD cost for removing and put it at a reasonable fee instead of the horrendously overpriced point it is/was at.
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited November 2013
Purple Catalyst = 100K from the shop.
I really, really don't like this. At All.
3.375M built in cost based on the shop price. Even if the price is dropped in half it's still obnoxious.
The high price was the problem and will continue to be the problem.
This is horrible I have no words. I have been looking at this for like an hour and God only knows where my enchantments went as I cant even tell whats going on. Its too confusing I hate it. This is way too complicated I cant even tell if I failed on whatever I tried to do or not.
The removal of enchantments off gear though is Awesome.
0
Options
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited November 2013
. . . . .The current system was not confusing. The current system, it is already easy enough to make lower level enchants and hard enough to make higher level enchants above level 5. Why in the world they would "want to make it easier for lower level enchants and harder to make higher level enchants" blows my mind. The current system should not be scrapped but tweaked instead. This game is supposed to be a casual game, it's gone so far from that already and now with this change? Sigh... just sigh...
. . . . . I surely will not be making a ranger with this system or even leveling any new characters. There's no way in the Nine Hells I am going to level any more characters and pay millions of AD to gear them up with enchantments. This system is pure insanity. This is no longer a casual game nor a free to play game with this system. Nay, now this game is a grind fest of Astral Diamonds. It's too much of a grind for one character as it is already.... This game should now be called Grindwinter.
Here's the updated chart included Rank 10s and Perfects. I made every rank through the refining system. All numbers are what appeared in the dialogue windows as I refined each level.
Working on a cost analysis table next.
Here's what's on the AD vendor now.
Minor Mark of Potency = 25 AD
Lesser Mark of Potency = 500 AD
Mark of Potency = 25,000 AD
Greater Mark of Potency 100,000 AD
Refining item
Flawless Sapphire (5,000 RP) = 30,000 AD
All enchantments and runes have been removed from the AD vendor.
0
Options
tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
100k AD for the greater marks of potency...BAM, just like that, making rank 7-9 and normal+ enchants just got paywalled off if you're a casual altaholic. Let us take a minute to remember our fallen comrades.
. . . . .The current system was not confusing. The current system, it is already easy enough to make lower level enchants and hard enough to make higher level enchants above level 5. Why in the world they would "want to make it easier for lower level enchants and harder to make higher level enchants" blows my mind. The current system should not be scrapped but tweaked instead. This game is supposed to be a casual game, it's gone so far from that already and now with this change? Sigh... just sigh...
. . . . . I surely will not be making a ranger with this system or even leveling any new characters. There's no way in the Nine Hells I am going to level any more characters and pay millions of AD to gear them up with enchantments. This system is pure insanity. This is no longer a casual game nor a free to play game with this system. Nay, now this game is a grind fest of Astral Diamonds. It's too much of a grind for one character as it is already.... This game should now be called Grindwinter.
I completely agree zeb, however instead of not playing I'd say that people would just play the fun parts (regular content + Foundry missions) and avoid group-content such as Dungeons and PvP. However this could also mean that eventually the Foundry would become the only reason people will play Neverwinter because honestly, there are a lot of F2P games out there and some of them don't urge you to grind/pay for progress the way this refinement system seems to shift the game into.
____________________________________________
The poster formerly known as LordOfPit, and his blog.
* Dec 2007 (CO)
* Oct 2008 (STO)
Feedback: I use the current system it is simple and clear how it works, even if there are "hidden" opportunity costs. The new systems is confusing and overly complicated and I will not use it.
Moving from 4 enchants + optional ward = % chance of success and go to 1 enchant + up to 5 enchants + catalyst + ward = % chance of succes + then strange ghings going on with unexplained yellow bars on things and other strangeness and your "easier more fun" is my "complicated pain in the donkey".
I do undestand the reduction of the high end costs (ie above rank 5) but for me that just doesn't seem to be worth the aggrevation of even getting there.
Currntly I use enchants regularly and I never have more than about 12 bag spaces dedicated to them because I just sell the ones I don't need (ie most of them) and when I get 4 I try a fuse and shrug if I fail until I'm close to 60 and need to hit Rank 5s for my gear.
Under the new system I will not use the fusing at all until I must to get Rank 5s.
The only advantage of the new system is that once I have the Rank 6's its jut gold farming instead of gear farming to upgrade my gear to them. Of course that means I need to suffer through the pain of running dungeons less so maybe that's a good thing...
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Here's the updated chart included Rank 10s and Perfects. I made every rank through the refining system. All numbers are what appeared in the dialogue windows as I refined each level.
Awesome!
Any chance of getting a chart of how much RP an item gives?
0
Options
rapticorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,078Arc User
edited November 2013
Well now we know catalyst prices... Too freakin high! I thought it was bad with just the AD prices being added to refining and now this? I just fused all enchantments on my characters up to Rank 5 and have about 80 or each. Probably made 30 Rank 5s so with the new system that would have cost me 30,000 AD? No thanks. I'll just use those going forward if this goes live. And since it will cost gold now to unslot that will work in my favor!
However new players get shafted. Big time. New players have enough trouble scraping up AD as it is.
This does nothing to "engage" me in the new system. If anything it drives me away. I don't need all perfect enchantments for how I play the game so I can just live with what I have. And I have enough stocked away to outfit a few more characters.
I surely will not be making a ranger with this system or even leveling any new characters. There's no way in the Nine Hells I am going to level any more characters and pay millions of AD to gear them up with enchantments.
If all else fails just do what I intend on doing with my Ranger , Enchantments don't bind when you use them so I'm just going to pull a set of lvl 7 's off my CW , fair enough its a pain in the *** to do and costs 2.5 gold per enchant but I'd rather pay that than have to spend hundred's of hours farming millions of AD. (and yes , before any smartasses comment I know I could farm CN but sadly I have to work 10 - 12 hours a day so when I play NW I do so for fun , I don't treat it as a second job )
Then again maybe I shouldn't of posted this , they will probably try to make enchantments character bound when you use them now ...
I like the new system in general. It frees up bag space and the interchangeability is great. But because it doesn't consume enchants any longer, they needed another item that is consumed to keep the need of buying wards (through ZEN). And for the same reason, the Catalysts aren't cheap.
0
Options
frost168Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
This entire new enchantment refining system is not being done to help out the community. It is not being done to encourage people to use aspects of the game that are being avoided. This enchantment system they have implemented is their way of "dealing" with the gold sellers.
This is the only reason, and they know it.
The gold sellers, through their massive account botting system, amass huge numbers of enchants. Through the old way, it cost them nothing to acquire and upgrade their enchants, both with the accumulation of base enchants, but also through the weekly wards, both green and blue. They have flooded the AH with enchants with a no upfront AD cost, amassing huge amounts of AD's free.
Now, these gold sellers, in order to sell any enchants above level 4, are going to have to spend AD as an upfront cost before being able to post them on the AH, and hope to recoup not only their upfront investment, but maybe with a little profit. Thereby <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> over one of the ways they have of amassing huge amounts of AD to sell cheaper than Perfect World can offer through Zen.
This is not being done for the community to make enchants more widely available, or as some easier way of refining, but as a defense against their bottom line.
I will wager the loss of player base over this module hurts them farm more deeply, than the loss of sales to the gold sellers.
Another module, another round of nerfs, I mean, "adjustments" people will be forced to deal with. I went through this gaming style before, it was called D3. I guess Cryptic hired Jay Wilson to lead their development team.
For reference, Perfect enchantments on the Auction House are selling as high as 8.9 Million AD and as low as 6 Million AD.
Buying Scenario
Assuming I purchase coalescent wards from the Auction House for a low 100k AD and purchase the Greater Mark of Potency from the Astral Diamond Vendor for 100k AD, then making a perfect weapon/armor enchantment will cost 3.15 Million AD. I would need to buy 10 Greater Marks of Potency, and 8 or 15 Coalescent wards (possible bug on creating lessers would only cost 1 ward). I would also need 32 shards. Perfect = 3.15M
Greater = 1.375M
Normal = 500K
Lesser = 125K
Farming Scenario
If I farm coalescent wards like I'm doing now, they cost me 0 AD and I average 2 Coalescent Wards a week. If I farm the Marks of Potency, they will also cost me 0 AD. The unknown factor here is how often do they drop.
But the final cost would just be 650k AD to make a Perfect weapon/armor enchantment. Perfect = 650K
Greater = 275K
Normal = 100K
Lesser = 25K
Previous Scenario
I would need 85 Coalescent wards to make a Perfect weapon/armor enchantment from scratch. That's 8.5 Million AD if I buy coalescent wards at 100k a piece or about 42 weeks for me to farm that many coalescent wards (averaging 2 coalescent wards a week). I would also need 256 shards.
Comparison
The new method is 62.9% cheaper than the current method if purchasing all the wards and catalysts.
The new method costs me 650k AD but only requires 8 or 15 coalescent wards and 10 Greater Marks of Potency compared to 85 coalescent wards in the existing method. Even if you group the 2 items together for a total of 25 items to farm, that's still 70.5% less things I have to farm which should correlate to significantly less time farming. And it's 87.5% less shards that I would need.
Conclusion
Either way, the new method means I'm NOT buying any Perfects off the auction house at 6 million+ AD.
Oops - But there's one more point to consider
"Cost of refining points"
It was assumed in this example that all refining points used were from "free" enchantment drops. And the time for collecting those drops was not accounted for.
There are 5 slots for refining.
Rank 9/Greater = 38,880 (77,760 Match Bonus) RP
Rank 8/Normal = 12,960 (25,920) RP
Rank 7/Lesser = 4,320 (8,640) RP
Rank 6/Shard = 2,160 (4,320) RP
Rank 5 = 540 (1,080) RP
Rank 4 = 135 (270) RP
Rank 3 = 45 (90) RP
Rank 2 = 15 (30) RP
Rank 1 = 5 (10) RP
This means that just refining a Greater to a Perfect alone and not factoring in the lower levels of refining, it would take
12 "matched" Normals
24 Normals/Rank 8 of any kind
36 "matched" Lessers
72 Lessers/Rank 7 of any kind
72 "matched" shards
144 Shards/Rank 6 of any kind
576 Rank 5
2304 Rank 4
This is where the cost of the new system can blow up. If you're in a hurry, buying/making the higher level enchantments for refining get's expensive. Going the free route, that's a lot of time to collect 2,304 Rank 4s.
Feedback
If the AD cost of refining Rank 6 and below enchantments can be eliminated (eg. keep the current system for those ranks), then the new system is much more promising in terms of cost comparison.
I just tested this new system and understand why everyone is upset. One thing I noticed is that artifacts eat up enchantments/runes like it was candy and needs to be tone down.
But there is still hope for this system it just needs a lot of work in the RP and catalyst areas. I think the catalyst need to up the chances of success rather than a necessary component to upgrade. For example, a minor catalyst could give you a +8% chance to success. This alongside the wards could be very helpful. The potency of the catalyst could go up in multiples of eight, ie. 8, 16, 32, 64 (white to purple quality). You could establish two slots for catalyst, but the success rate will be no higher than 95%. Unless you slot in a blue ward, then the success is 100%, like it always is right now.
This is just an example but I think the idea of increasing your chances of success is much better than adding another expensive component to the creation of higher enchantments.
0
Options
truelokasterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1Arc User
edited November 2013
18 pages of people complaining and they will still implement this in Module 2.
18 pages of people complaining and they will still implement this in Module 2.
Sad but true , I'm just farming and crafting as many rank 6+ as I can before this hits , I really feel sorry for any new players who start after module 2 goes live.
feedback: refining process
on my lowly (former) perma-stealth rogue, i had a r5 dark in my main hand weapon. after feeding it to up the RP max, i bought a mark of potency for 25k AD and popped a preservation ward in. it had a 40% chance of success and it hit the button and it worked... however it consumed the preservation ward... i'm not sure if that's supposed to happen.
in the old system, when i would fuse up from r5 to r6 and r6 to r7, i would convert AD to zen and buy a ten pack of preservation wards. so that cost, at the present exchange rate, would be about 40k AD as long as ten p wards did the trick.
in the new system, based on all costs, i paid 30k AD to upgrade from r5 to r6 and it would cost me an additional 50k AD to upgrade to r7 as long as i had a p ward from my coffer of augmentation. but if i didn't and i wasn't as lucky to get success on the first try, i'd have to purchase a ten pack of p wards. so bump the cost up to 40k. total cost to upgrade from r5 to r7 would be 120k AD.
that's an 80k cost increase.
what's to say that after the implementation of this new system that AH prices on enchantments don't drop and it's easier to just buy enchants rather than "refine" them? with the lower cost of unsocketing enchants, that's a lot of r7 + that already exists in neverwinter.
i like the idea that i can upgrade my enchantment while it's socketed. it alleviates the need (and cost) to unsocket enchantments to upgrade them OR to just destroy them altogether by dropping a new enchantment over them... even though the majority of people probably used the latter method to avoid costs completely. i would prefer that the % of failure be completely eliminated from this process. p wards could act as coal wards do for armor and weapon enchantments. or even r5-r8... r9-r10 could require coal wards. i would also prefer if the extra AD costs be reconsidered... to be lowered or eliminated. i know this mentality goes hand in hand with the feywild boon requirements as well as a lot of the other campaign requirements... but i think it should be reconsidered. this partially is contingent on the drop rates of the catalyst components... but the costs involved are already pretty high. the first two feywild boons are essentially r9 gems and their AD costs are 5k and 10k.
thanks for listening to and considering our feedback.
0
Options
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
So you never used any wards? And I'm the one doing it wrong, good one. Or what, you think that if you got them for free that means they are not worth any AD?
. . . . . I get all mine from Coffers of Wondrous Augmentation, for free and they never hit the economy so they are not a factor to anyone's income of Astral Diamonds, except for the fact that I am not selling them or not buying them. The latter of the which has no impact upon this discussion.
Who the **** buys anything with AD from the vendors. What, PE teleport scrolls and cats? Most of Sharandar campaign is one-time payment only. Transmutation
No impact on gameplay, your choice to waste money. Enchant Removal
Which nobody uses. Companion Renaming
Want some more straws to grasp at? Auction House
Not a sink except for the 10% cut. Let's also not forget to mention the constant influx of things for Zen that entice one to spend ADs in the Exchange.
Not a sink either. Do you even know what a sink is?
The list doesn't go anywhere.
And really, barely anyone uses the companion/mount upgrades either because their costs are ridiculous. If anything, this system would provide the first real AD sink to the game and counteract inflation.
. . . . . Just because they are not being used by some, doesn't mean that they aren't AD sinks. They are still being used, for I do see players with fully upgraded companions and mounts. Not a lot mind you, but I do see them. They are still sinks even if they weren't used at all. All I am seeing is that they are just too darn expensive to be effective AD sinks. Not sure why you would also attack my statement of the Auction House when I even mentioned that it's not really a sink but sure as heck feels like one. But hey, if we're going there then yes it is a sink because it has a 10% fee. That adds up to a lot, especially on large sales.
. . . . . Let's not argue just to argue, okay? Thanks!
rapticorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,078Arc User
edited November 2013
I spent a little more time with it and now I like it even less. As a test I wanted to upgrade an Azure Rank 5 to a Rank 6. Once I got it to the upgrade step I needed to buy a Mark of Potency for 25,000 AD from the Wondrous Bazaar. When I went to upgrade it said it would cost me 5,000 AD and there was a chance I could lose the catalyst. Which I did fail and lost the catalyst. I tried it a second time and was successful but I just paid 55,000 AD for a Rank 6 that would have cost me nothing with the current system because I wouldn't have bothered slotting a Rank 5 enchantment to begin with.
The catalyst cost is too high and even then why did I have to pay 5,000 on top of having to purchase a catalyst? Yes supposedly those drop from Epic Dungeons and Skill Nodes but I currently don't do epic dungeons so purchasing it the only way for some people. Unless I am totally missing something here. Someone feel free to fill me in if that's the case. I will definitely not be refining enchantments if this system makes it out as it currently exists and will just make due with my current horde of Rank 5s and 6s.
Really hating the catalyst component to this. The 5k for the combine was something I could have lived with though. If you want to sell this to people, or at least to me, I'd say the only way to make it palatable is to remove the catalyst for runestones and enchantments. Artifacts and the like maybe it's fine for those I haven't been able to upgrade one of those yet as I need a Mark of Power and a Lesser Mark of Power... Two catalysts!
Folks, just understand, yr presumably 'free' enchants and wards in the current system all do cost AD - u could easily sell that enchants or wards for AD at AH. So the ultimite cost should take into it the AH cost of every ward/enchant consuming in the process. if u now gonna pay 250-400k ad instead of paying ('free') 60 coales wards worth 6 mill ad (u DO can sell that wards for ad) - thats an improvement, not 'ad sink'
0
Options
dalang3dMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 29Arc User
For reference, Perfect enchantments on the Auction House are selling as high as 8.9 Million AD and as low as 6 Million AD.
Buying Scenario
Assuming I purchase coalescent wards from the Auction House for a low 100k AD and purchase the Greater Mark of Potency from the Astral Diamond Vendor for 100k AD, then making a perfect weapon/armor enchantment will cost 3.15 Million AD. I would need to buy 10 Greater Marks of Potency, and 8 or 15 Coalescent wards (possible bug on creating lessers would only cost 1 ward). I would also need 32 shards. Perfect = 3.15M
Greater = 1.375M
Normal = 500K
Lesser = 125K
...
your calculation scenario is a bit different from my calculation, here my calculation according to chart :
lesser = 4shard + 1 Cw + 25k ad = ? + 100k ad + 25k ad = 125k ad [1 Cw]
normal = 2 lesser + 1 GMOP + 1 Cw + 50k ad = 250k ad + 100k ad + 100k ad + 50k ad = 500k Ad [3 Cw]
Greater = 2 Normal + 2 GMOP + 1 Cw + 75k ad = 1000k ad + 200k ad + 100k ad + 75k ad = 1375k Ad [7 Cw]
Perfect = 3 Greater + 2 GMOP + 1 Cw + 100k ad = 4125k ad + 200k ad + 125k ad + 100k ad = 4550k Ad [22 Cw]
or may be i wrong, plz corrected on my calc
0
Options
dalang3dMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 29Arc User
edited November 2013
I just want to say Refinement System must be just for Artifac, Weapon, Armor Enchantmen ONLY not other.
Comments
I believe this is the crux of the issue with the new system. Previously, there was a path of no AD cost to upgrade enchantments. It was time consuming, yes, but it was absolutely free.
In the new system, there is absolutely no option for a no AD cost upgrade.
100% agreed, man how I hate the asian business model. People need to know that in the americas, even in Europe it works different. That's why in my first post, I asked if the company want to see their servers empty. It's not drama or anything like that, just the truth. I could quote lots of games that failed here because of this kind of business model, but it's against the rules.
Why they just do this:
- Sell packs of things on different levels of prices;
- Sell more fashion items that people will love it and buy;
- Sell more companions;
There are lots of ideas of this kind of things, I can't understand the AD sink
For quite a while I was (and somewhat still am) a huge supporter and would defend this game from anyone that played for a while and complained about it being an money/AD sink. Today I feel I lost this battle and that I'm actually advocating for a game company that could not care less about it's player base. I love all about this module, but I feel I kept an blind eye for several things that should ad could be fixed like companions and mounts upgrade costs.
If this goes live, I'll regret my Hero/Guardian/Knight of the Feywild investment in this travesty of what could have been a great Free to play MMO.
The question is, can AD be added into the system somewhere without being a requirement.
Edit: I've found another objection. If the tool tip is correct then the blue catalysts (mark of potency and mark of union), and above I guess, are only found in epic dungeons (or purchasable). My bad I guess for not doing dungeons. The reality is I don't really need high level enchants, or any enchants at all for how I play.
Who the **** buys anything with AD from the vendors. What, PE teleport scrolls and cats? Most of Sharandar campaign is one-time payment only.
Transmutation
No impact on gameplay, your choice to waste money.
Enchant Removal
Which nobody uses.
Companion Renaming
Want some more straws to grasp at?
Auction House
Not a sink except for the 10% cut.
Let's also not forget to mention the constant influx of things for Zen that entice one to spend ADs in the Exchange.
Not a sink either. Do you even know what a sink is? The list doesn't go anywhere.
And really, barely anyone uses the companion/mount upgrades either because their costs are ridiculous. If anything, this system would provide the first real AD sink to the game and counteract inflation.
Im not sure the exact method of gaining the catalysts... Maybe they drop, maybe they dont. What I would suggest is that you guys do one or the other...
I like the RP idea, throw random <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> in, it gets RP and get enough and it levels... This is a cool idea.... What makes it suck is the catalysts AND the % to fuse... I feel like if it were JUST one or the other that would be fine, but not both....
ALTERNATE METHOD OF FUSING:
Another Idea could be to give like 1 RP for each enemy killed within X levels of your character. You can speed up the process by throwing in other enchants, once it hits enough RP to level, you can fuse at a % of success, if you fail you lose like 10-25% RP or something...
That way it promotes PVE play alot to lvl, if you want to fast track it (most efficient way) you grab other enchants to add some RP to then work on fusing.
Each level higher is 4x the one before as is now, so if a R7 is 100,000 RP thats either 100k kills OR say 3x R6s and 50k kills for a CHANCE to fuse. Failure results in 10% lost RP putting you back to 90k RP.
This way players have multiple methods of getting items. the hard way = farm. The easy way = fuse. This makes it easier not harder to do...
A leveling system could be REALLY fun and I will guarantee, make it a BIG enough number for each level and people will still buy the items. People are very impatient, but this rewards players that DO play... The other advantage of this ssytem is its realyl easy to release R11 R12 enchants as well, you can keep it going.....
I could ask you the same question about whether you know what an AD sink is or not.
The entire point was the AD sinks are too much money. They are so overpriced it encourages people to not use them.
That doesn't mean they're not sinks. They are set up to be sinks. They fail.
And the enchantment removals not being used it the point...stupidly overpriced.
But what they are doing is taking the option to not use it and mandate it. That's not a sink. That's an unavoidable fee to play.
You can avoid sinks. They are there to remove AD and other currencies from the market to prevent inflation....which doesn't happen due to them all being horribly overpriced. That doesn't mean they aren't set up to be sinks or that this change is acceptable.
The correct approach, in all honesty, would have been to keep the AD cost for removing and put it at a reasonable fee instead of the horrendously overpriced point it is/was at.
I really, really don't like this. At All.
3.375M built in cost based on the shop price. Even if the price is dropped in half it's still obnoxious.
The high price was the problem and will continue to be the problem.
The removal of enchantments off gear though is Awesome.
. . . . . I surely will not be making a ranger with this system or even leveling any new characters. There's no way in the Nine Hells I am going to level any more characters and pay millions of AD to gear them up with enchantments. This system is pure insanity. This is no longer a casual game nor a free to play game with this system. Nay, now this game is a grind fest of Astral Diamonds. It's too much of a grind for one character as it is already.... This game should now be called Grindwinter.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
Working on a cost analysis table next.
Here's what's on the AD vendor now.
Minor Mark of Potency = 25 AD
Lesser Mark of Potency = 500 AD
Mark of Potency = 25,000 AD
Greater Mark of Potency 100,000 AD
Refining item
Flawless Sapphire (5,000 RP) = 30,000 AD
All enchantments and runes have been removed from the AD vendor.
The poster formerly known as LordOfPit, and his blog.
* Dec 2007 (CO)
* Oct 2008 (STO)
Feedback: I use the current system it is simple and clear how it works, even if there are "hidden" opportunity costs. The new systems is confusing and overly complicated and I will not use it.
Moving from 4 enchants + optional ward = % chance of success and go to 1 enchant + up to 5 enchants + catalyst + ward = % chance of succes + then strange ghings going on with unexplained yellow bars on things and other strangeness and your "easier more fun" is my "complicated pain in the donkey".
I do undestand the reduction of the high end costs (ie above rank 5) but for me that just doesn't seem to be worth the aggrevation of even getting there.
Currntly I use enchants regularly and I never have more than about 12 bag spaces dedicated to them because I just sell the ones I don't need (ie most of them) and when I get 4 I try a fuse and shrug if I fail until I'm close to 60 and need to hit Rank 5s for my gear.
Under the new system I will not use the fusing at all until I must to get Rank 5s.
The only advantage of the new system is that once I have the Rank 6's its jut gold farming instead of gear farming to upgrade my gear to them. Of course that means I need to suffer through the pain of running dungeons less so maybe that's a good thing...
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Awesome!
Any chance of getting a chart of how much RP an item gives?
However new players get shafted. Big time. New players have enough trouble scraping up AD as it is.
This does nothing to "engage" me in the new system. If anything it drives me away. I don't need all perfect enchantments for how I play the game so I can just live with what I have. And I have enough stocked away to outfit a few more characters.
Then again maybe I shouldn't of posted this , they will probably try to make enchantments character bound when you use them now ...
This is the only reason, and they know it.
The gold sellers, through their massive account botting system, amass huge numbers of enchants. Through the old way, it cost them nothing to acquire and upgrade their enchants, both with the accumulation of base enchants, but also through the weekly wards, both green and blue. They have flooded the AH with enchants with a no upfront AD cost, amassing huge amounts of AD's free.
Now, these gold sellers, in order to sell any enchants above level 4, are going to have to spend AD as an upfront cost before being able to post them on the AH, and hope to recoup not only their upfront investment, but maybe with a little profit. Thereby <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> over one of the ways they have of amassing huge amounts of AD to sell cheaper than Perfect World can offer through Zen.
This is not being done for the community to make enchants more widely available, or as some easier way of refining, but as a defense against their bottom line.
I will wager the loss of player base over this module hurts them farm more deeply, than the loss of sales to the gold sellers.
Another module, another round of nerfs, I mean, "adjustments" people will be forced to deal with. I went through this gaming style before, it was called D3. I guess Cryptic hired Jay Wilson to lead their development team.
I left that game too.....
Buying Scenario
Assuming I purchase coalescent wards from the Auction House for a low 100k AD and purchase the Greater Mark of Potency from the Astral Diamond Vendor for 100k AD, then making a perfect weapon/armor enchantment will cost 3.15 Million AD. I would need to buy 10 Greater Marks of Potency, and 8 or 15 Coalescent wards (possible bug on creating lessers would only cost 1 ward). I would also need 32 shards.
Perfect = 3.15M
Greater = 1.375M
Normal = 500K
Lesser = 125K
Farming Scenario
If I farm coalescent wards like I'm doing now, they cost me 0 AD and I average 2 Coalescent Wards a week. If I farm the Marks of Potency, they will also cost me 0 AD. The unknown factor here is how often do they drop.
But the final cost would just be 650k AD to make a Perfect weapon/armor enchantment.
Perfect = 650K
Greater = 275K
Normal = 100K
Lesser = 25K
Previous Scenario
I would need 85 Coalescent wards to make a Perfect weapon/armor enchantment from scratch. That's 8.5 Million AD if I buy coalescent wards at 100k a piece or about 42 weeks for me to farm that many coalescent wards (averaging 2 coalescent wards a week). I would also need 256 shards.
Comparison
The new method is 62.9% cheaper than the current method if purchasing all the wards and catalysts.
The new method costs me 650k AD but only requires 8 or 15 coalescent wards and 10 Greater Marks of Potency compared to 85 coalescent wards in the existing method. Even if you group the 2 items together for a total of 25 items to farm, that's still 70.5% less things I have to farm which should correlate to significantly less time farming. And it's 87.5% less shards that I would need.
Conclusion
Either way, the new method means I'm NOT buying any Perfects off the auction house at 6 million+ AD.
"Cost of refining points"
It was assumed in this example that all refining points used were from "free" enchantment drops. And the time for collecting those drops was not accounted for.
There are 5 slots for refining.
Rank 9/Greater = 38,880 (77,760 Match Bonus) RP
Rank 8/Normal = 12,960 (25,920) RP
Rank 7/Lesser = 4,320 (8,640) RP
Rank 6/Shard = 2,160 (4,320) RP
Rank 5 = 540 (1,080) RP
Rank 4 = 135 (270) RP
Rank 3 = 45 (90) RP
Rank 2 = 15 (30) RP
Rank 1 = 5 (10) RP
This means that just refining a Greater to a Perfect alone and not factoring in the lower levels of refining, it would take
12 "matched" Normals
24 Normals/Rank 8 of any kind
36 "matched" Lessers
72 Lessers/Rank 7 of any kind
72 "matched" shards
144 Shards/Rank 6 of any kind
576 Rank 5
2304 Rank 4
This is where the cost of the new system can blow up. If you're in a hurry, buying/making the higher level enchantments for refining get's expensive. Going the free route, that's a lot of time to collect 2,304 Rank 4s.
Feedback
If the AD cost of refining Rank 6 and below enchantments can be eliminated (eg. keep the current system for those ranks), then the new system is much more promising in terms of cost comparison.
But there is still hope for this system it just needs a lot of work in the RP and catalyst areas. I think the catalyst need to up the chances of success rather than a necessary component to upgrade. For example, a minor catalyst could give you a +8% chance to success. This alongside the wards could be very helpful. The potency of the catalyst could go up in multiples of eight, ie. 8, 16, 32, 64 (white to purple quality). You could establish two slots for catalyst, but the success rate will be no higher than 95%. Unless you slot in a blue ward, then the success is 100%, like it always is right now.
This is just an example but I think the idea of increasing your chances of success is much better than adding another expensive component to the creation of higher enchantments.
Sad but true , I'm just farming and crafting as many rank 6+ as I can before this hits , I really feel sorry for any new players who start after module 2 goes live.
on my lowly (former) perma-stealth rogue, i had a r5 dark in my main hand weapon. after feeding it to up the RP max, i bought a mark of potency for 25k AD and popped a preservation ward in. it had a 40% chance of success and it hit the button and it worked... however it consumed the preservation ward... i'm not sure if that's supposed to happen.
in the old system, when i would fuse up from r5 to r6 and r6 to r7, i would convert AD to zen and buy a ten pack of preservation wards. so that cost, at the present exchange rate, would be about 40k AD as long as ten p wards did the trick.
in the new system, based on all costs, i paid 30k AD to upgrade from r5 to r6 and it would cost me an additional 50k AD to upgrade to r7 as long as i had a p ward from my coffer of augmentation. but if i didn't and i wasn't as lucky to get success on the first try, i'd have to purchase a ten pack of p wards. so bump the cost up to 40k. total cost to upgrade from r5 to r7 would be 120k AD.
that's an 80k cost increase.
what's to say that after the implementation of this new system that AH prices on enchantments don't drop and it's easier to just buy enchants rather than "refine" them? with the lower cost of unsocketing enchants, that's a lot of r7 + that already exists in neverwinter.
i like the idea that i can upgrade my enchantment while it's socketed. it alleviates the need (and cost) to unsocket enchantments to upgrade them OR to just destroy them altogether by dropping a new enchantment over them... even though the majority of people probably used the latter method to avoid costs completely. i would prefer that the % of failure be completely eliminated from this process. p wards could act as coal wards do for armor and weapon enchantments. or even r5-r8... r9-r10 could require coal wards. i would also prefer if the extra AD costs be reconsidered... to be lowered or eliminated. i know this mentality goes hand in hand with the feywild boon requirements as well as a lot of the other campaign requirements... but i think it should be reconsidered. this partially is contingent on the drop rates of the catalyst components... but the costs involved are already pretty high. the first two feywild boons are essentially r9 gems and their AD costs are 5k and 10k.
thanks for listening to and considering our feedback.
. . . . . Just because they are not being used by some, doesn't mean that they aren't AD sinks. They are still being used, for I do see players with fully upgraded companions and mounts. Not a lot mind you, but I do see them. They are still sinks even if they weren't used at all. All I am seeing is that they are just too darn expensive to be effective AD sinks. Not sure why you would also attack my statement of the Auction House when I even mentioned that it's not really a sink but sure as heck feels like one. But hey, if we're going there then yes it is a sink because it has a 10% fee. That adds up to a lot, especially on large sales.
. . . . . Let's not argue just to argue, okay? Thanks!
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
The catalyst cost is too high and even then why did I have to pay 5,000 on top of having to purchase a catalyst? Yes supposedly those drop from Epic Dungeons and Skill Nodes but I currently don't do epic dungeons so purchasing it the only way for some people. Unless I am totally missing something here. Someone feel free to fill me in if that's the case. I will definitely not be refining enchantments if this system makes it out as it currently exists and will just make due with my current horde of Rank 5s and 6s.
Really hating the catalyst component to this. The 5k for the combine was something I could have lived with though. If you want to sell this to people, or at least to me, I'd say the only way to make it palatable is to remove the catalyst for runestones and enchantments. Artifacts and the like maybe it's fine for those I haven't been able to upgrade one of those yet as I need a Mark of Power and a Lesser Mark of Power... Two catalysts!
New system is way cheaper and more convinient than previous. Bottom line. Tx devs
your calculation scenario is a bit different from my calculation, here my calculation according to chart :
lesser = 4shard + 1 Cw + 25k ad = ? + 100k ad + 25k ad = 125k ad [1 Cw]
normal = 2 lesser + 1 GMOP + 1 Cw + 50k ad = 250k ad + 100k ad + 100k ad + 50k ad = 500k Ad [3 Cw]
Greater = 2 Normal + 2 GMOP + 1 Cw + 75k ad = 1000k ad + 200k ad + 100k ad + 75k ad = 1375k Ad [7 Cw]
Perfect = 3 Greater + 2 GMOP + 1 Cw + 100k ad = 4125k ad + 200k ad + 125k ad + 100k ad = 4550k Ad [22 Cw]
or may be i wrong, plz corrected on my calc