Thanks for doing the math on that j0shi82. I was working on it myselfbut our numbers are very similar if not the same (slight errors probably on my end) so I'm just going to roll with those numbers.
I'm just not seeing any improvement, really.
We now require half of the enchantments to level up past Rank 7, huzzah, but this still means jack diddlysquat due to the AD Fees and catalysts.
The same result could have been garnered from halving the costs on the current system.
Nobody "wasn't participating" in the old enchantment system. Your data showed that but it wasn't because it was a bad system outright it just required too much farming and too many high cost punishments for failure.
You've not addressed the high cost punishment for failure in the least. It's still a 10% chance from rank 9-10. It's still under a 50% chance past rank 5. Now you have removed the pre-7 enchantment sink but you've added this stupid catalyst requirement which is just a bunch of confusing fluff that will result in filling my inventory or costing me even more resources than it currently does prior to rank 7.
And now I see that dreadful 419K AD cost to raise and enchtment from rank 4-10. Do you know what that is? That's an up front fee that I had refused to pay before. We said the fee to remove enchantments was too high. By moving it to a fee to make enchantments it's just going to discourage people from making them to begin with. It's honestly a complete failure to listen. The fee was too high. Pay attention. Too high.
Remove the AD fee below rank 6 and cut the fee to a quarter of what it is currently rank 6-10 and maybe it would be decent...
Here's the crux of the problem with the economy as a whole, to be honest, there is too much and too few astral diamonds in the game.
That doesn't make sense? I thought not...
This game's market is inflated at the moment. People have plenty of AD to spend on various things at any given time and very few places to spend it so the AD in the game has the gear drops from dungeons quite high and well out of reach for the average player to earn through normal gameplay.
At the same time the reason there's so much in the game is because there's too little AD to use on the AD Sinks. I have two words for you: Mount Upgrades. Look at the price of those...give me any reason to the justification of that?! 2.4M to make a single mount T3? That's roughly 60 dollars in the current market.
That's the truth of every single one of the gold sinks within the game. They are so outrageously out of reach that we all blow raspberries at them and don't use them. Take the data for the truth...
The game expects too much grinding from everything so we pick and choose our grinds carefully.
I love grinds. I want grinds. But I want balanced grinds.
If you're seeing people aren't taking part in the grinds don't kid yourself into thinking they don't want to take part in it and consider that the grinds themselves are just out of balance.
If you reduced all of the AD sinks in the game to 1/4 of the fees they are people would be throwing their AD into it. So do us a huge favor and fix your AD sinks to be balanced before you consider mandating them on us.
I've been saying this same thing since Beta.
Transmutation costs, Enchantment extraction, Mount upgrades, The level 60 special items in the wonderous Bazaar and in recent content update about the Companion upgrades. The AD upgrades are outrageous.
The same data they conspired for this refinement system, is even reflected in the data for the above things there. Obviously with that data if it was even looked at, could be seeing as its nothing wrong with the system itself, its the outrageous costs of AD they expect players to make for them.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited November 2013
I'm looking at the bigger picture ladysylvia.
I'm looking at the fact I can only possibly make, at most, 24K AD per day per character and in reality I never make that much. I might make 20-30K AD a day average between all five of my characters unless I spend a large amount of times in dungeons and get lucky. And I am not what anybody would call a casual player, I am on quite a bit, at least four hours a day average.
So when you say only 400K for a perfect, yeah I'm not overly complaining about that side. That side is overall better.
I am just flabberghasted at how much worse rank 1-10 is. I don't look at a rank 10 and say "oh that's only 400K" because the truth of it is that I see 400K times fourteen slots just on your character as well as three on at least one companion plus the cost of actual enchantments to feed these things to that level. Then I have to see that I have five characters...
The AD cost is just one of the problems with this system.
This isn't being friendly to casual players. I hear that argument and I shake my head at it because a "casual friendly" game would leave a person like me with absolutely no goals. When I hear even my own guild members complain they had to do a dungeon ten times to get a piece of gear I gawk and say "yeah...and if you got it after the first time what would you do!? What would you shoot for?!"
What I want is grinds that are friendly to a more hardcore player because right now with all of the time and effort I have put into the game I am nowhere close to even a single rank 10. If I pooled together all of my resources I wouldn't have a single rank 10. That's just wrong considering all of the time I have spent playing in the last six months.
This system cut the farming in half but upped the cost in AD exponentially.
Where am I getting the AD to pay for this? If this was the only thing in the game worth AD yeah, sure but I have a ton of things to spend AD on and it's all overpriced. Even right now I can't even think about buying Zen with AD because there's so many things for me to spend my AD on just to advance within the game that I have absolutely no extra at any given time.
So taking an AD sink and making it mandatory without reducing the cost to a reasonable price is going to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> me off.
You read as thoroughly pissed-off already, ambisinisterr. You have far more experience with this game and this company than I. Therefore, I'm going to ask: presuming they are firm on their plans to institute the new system, what adjustments to the new system would make it palatable to you?
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited November 2013
Yeah I am failing at masking how much this update is eating at me (and everybody else I know).
And it's sad because we're really super, super happy and excited for Module 2 yet this one aspect is just so bad it is almost ruining the rest of Module 2 for us. For the first two days of Module 2 being on the preview we were actually as happy as we could possibly be and then we looked into the details of this system and we are a bunch of schizophrenic people going from super happy about everything to doom and gloom about this...thing.
And the more I look into it the more I hate it.
Now first off, I can assure you this update is still subject to change. This thread isn't an announcement of finality and feedback can change what we see in live.
However you don't spend months on a system just to scrap it completely. At this point the current system will be changed whether it's with the release of Module 2 or later on if they need more time to refine this system. So at this point we can expect change to be inevitable but that's not a bad thing as while I completely disagree with their reasonings and solutions I do agree a change is in order.
Feedback: How would I make it better? 1) Catalysts shouldn't exist at all but most certainly not before level 5.
2) Remove the AD costs below level 5.
3) Cut the AD costs to 1/4 their proposed fee after level 5.
4) Adjust the failure rates to not be so diabolical.
I.E.
To Rank 10: 15%
To Rank 9: 25%
To Rank 8: 40%
To Rank 7: 55%
To Rank 6: 65%
IMO I would think that you should switch the ad and gold cost.
First the idea is nice, i love using other enchants (silver) to level out another enchantment (dark) you want which balances out the enchantment values. However, the AD sink that forces us to pay upfront to combine enchant is a terrible way to do it. The old system allowed us to have a CHOICE in whether to destroy the enchantment or save it, like with many people, enchantment at R5 or lower; it is more cost effective to destroy than to unbind. However, the new system forces us to pay the ad UPFRONT no matter what so at R1-5 you're losing AD already. I think you're trying to make gold relevant again, but just make the gold the cost to enchant, and keep AD cost to remove (although it could be lowered)
TL;DR gold to enchant (pay alittle gold to combine silver and dark) , AD to remove (lower cost would be nice too)
There's been a lot of backlash against this system, claiming it is too expensive, even before the maximum cost of the catalyst was revealed. And even after it was revealed people were talking about how it greatly reduces cost, people still insist on lambasting this new system. I
I'm looking at the fact I can only possibly make, at most, 24K AD per day per character and in reality I never make that much. I might make 20-30K AD a day average between all five of my characters unless I spend a large amount of times in dungeons and get lucky. And I am not what anybody would call a casual player, I am on quite a bit, at least four hours a day average.
So when you say only 400K for a perfect, yeah I'm not overly complaining about that side. That side is overall better.
I am just flabberghasted at how much worse rank 1-10 is. I don't look at a rank 10 and say "oh that's only 400K" because the truth of it is that I see 400K times fourteen slots just on your character as well as three on at least one companion plus the cost of actual enchantments to feed these things to that level. Then I have to see that I have five characters...
The AD cost is just one of the problems with this system.
This isn't being friendly to casual players. I hear that argument and I shake my head at it because a "casual friendly" game would leave a person like me with absolutely no goals. When I hear even my own guild members complain they had to do a dungeon ten times to get a piece of gear I gawk and say "yeah...and if you got it after the first time what would you do!? What would you shoot for?!"
What I want is grinds that are friendly to a more hardcore player because right now with all of the time and effort I have put into the game I am nowhere close to even a single rank 10. If I pooled together all of my resources I wouldn't have a single rank 10. That's just wrong considering all of the time I have spent playing in the last six months.
This system cut the farming in half but upped the cost in AD exponentially.
Where am I getting the AD to pay for this? If this was the only thing in the game worth AD yeah, sure but I have a ton of things to spend AD on and it's all overpriced. Even right now I can't even think about buying Zen with AD because there's so many things for me to spend my AD on just to advance within the game that I have absolutely no extra at any given time.
So taking an AD sink and making it mandatory without reducing the cost to a reasonable price is going to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> me off.
If they don't make the wards as a time sink/AD sink, where they can put them? At which point you REALLY need AD? I don't find out that. Yes you can buy zen for it, but you need this? No. You can buy companions with this, but you need them? No. Upgrading companion is a help, but needed? NO! Mount? Don't need a faster mounter. This game has several opportunity to sink your ad, but they are utility, not a needed factor. I understand your point about farming better equip alone, but with the old system it's really bad, but with the new it's total easier. And it only cost AD instead of a huge time sink. And sorry if you can't achieve any growth if you have to play more than 2 chars. Make a suggestion how the should/could change to be better.
There's been a lot of backlash against this system, claiming it is too expensive, even before the maximum cost of the catalyst was revealed. And even after it was revealed people were talking about how it greatly reduces cost, people still insist on lambasting this new system. I
I think alot of people are misunderstanding the hole system
like i did at first, at first glance it looks like bs, but after
figuring it out, it seems nice, but yea it might be expensive
but it was built for over time rather then on the spot crafting.
but that is what i gather now after messing with it.
Feedback: How would I make it better? 1) Catalysts shouldn't exist at all but most certainly not before level 5.
2) Remove the AD costs below level 5.
3) Cut the AD costs to 1/4 their proposed fee after level 5.
4) Adjust the failure rates to not be so diabolical.
I.E.
To Rank 10: 15%
To Rank 9: 25%
To Rank 8: 40%
To Rank 7: 55%
To Rank 6: 65%
Do this Cryptic, and I promise I may even have reason to spend the 2.6M AD I'm currently sitting on.
Heck, I may even consider buying ZEN from time to time and with $$$ not AD!
Oh, another thing... I've seen some videos on Youtube of people illegally obtaining obscene amounts of AD using hacks that modified client files. Until you can guarantee that your game has no such hacks, anything you do to force people to spend AD in-game should be met with a frown, no matter how accessible that system is made.
We're not simpletons, and we don't need to do math or economics to figure out when something that was previously free now costs us!
____________________________________________
The poster formerly known as LordOfPit, and his blog.
* Dec 2007 (CO)
* Oct 2008 (STO)
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
If they don't make the wards as a time sink/AD sink, where they can put them? At which point you REALLY need AD?
15 Coalescent wards per Perfect Enchantment and over 2000 Rank 4 Runes per rank 10 isn't enough of a time sink?
Wowee...
I'd hate to find out what you consider a horrible grind.'
Let's say this system goes in as-is. That's 5,866,000 AD just to get full rank 10's on your character just in refinement fees.
That's 244 days refining AD just to get full rank 10's.
Right now I have one Rank 8, two Rank 7's and a bunch of rank 5's in my gear. I don't need rank 10's to play the game but it's obvious this system is a reaction to the fact the old system had nobody made upper end enchantments. Unless the fees change this system will be no different.
If you want to be so literal though, take out AD from the game entirely. You don't need anything you buy with AD. Just take it out. That's what you just said: they finally put AD on something semi-required so we actually would spend it on something.
The point is that if they simply cut all the AD costs of all the optional stuff they wouldn't have to do this. If I didn't feel like I lost an arm and a leg removing enchantments before I would have paid the fee...but no...it was upwards of 350K to remove a single enchantment. Not happening.
You are ultimately playing devil's advocate and are really not doing a good job of it. 'You don't need ____' is always a horrible excuse for anything. I don't need to buy Zen either but I'd like to buy things if they were priced correctly and I'm sure Cryptic/PWE does too.
The trick is to make me want to spend my time and money...
And they want you to spend AD in AD sinks as it is a crucial part of the in-game economy. In fact the entire reason for the switch, I guarantee, is because of the lack of people using AD sinks.
But people will continue to not use AD sinks until Cryptic accepts all of their AD sinks are stupidly overpriced.
Mandating overpriced sinks will result in one thing and one thing only: exodus.
I think alot of people are misunderstanding the hole system
like i did at first, at first glance it looks like bs, but after
figuring it out, it seems nice, but yea it might be expensive
but it was built for over time rather then on the spot crafting.
but that is what i gather now after messing with it.
This is what I get from what's been said in this thread too. Please fix the bug with the Preview Shard so everyone can test things for themselves! - This would be my feedback:rolleyes:
We used to get Rank 7 and lower Enchantment and Runes fairly easy and for free, now it's going to cost AD and we have to use a Catalyst and we still get an X% chance to fail, and I think this is what scare most people. At the same time getting the Rank 8 and above Enchantment and Runes is going to be cheaper and I think this is what some people like about this new system. Personally, I don't mind the new system, but all my Enchantment and Runes are Rank 6 and above, on my main at least, so I can't wait to upgrade them now, that it's going to be easier. However, my situation is not representative for everyone, and I understand why so many players are upset.
Feedback: How would I make it better? 1) Catalysts shouldn't exist at all but most certainly not before level 5.
2) Remove the AD costs below level 5.
3) Cut the AD costs to 1/4 their proposed fee after level 5.
4) Adjust the failure rates to not be so diabolical.
I.E.
To Rank 10: 15%
To Rank 9: 25%
To Rank 8: 40%
To Rank 7: 55%
To Rank 6: 65%
Couldn't you give us the X% chance to fail without involving the Catalyst? The price of failure could be something like 15% of total RP, which would mean next to nothing for lower Ranks and, obviously, more for higher Ranks, which seems appropriate, to me at least.
I hate dancing with Lady Luck. She always steps on my toes.
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kragar00Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 1Arc User
edited November 2013
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] " A hero is no braver than anyone else....they are just braver five minutes longer"
It is real simple. In the old system I would eat 20 wards or less to make a rank 7 enchantment. @ 4,200 AD a piece, that was a simple price of 84,000 AD. And that was the maximum I ever spent. I never bothered to ward rank 3,4, and 5 fusions. I would only ward from 5 to 6, and 6 to 7. I receive plenty of low rank enchantments just playing the game, no need to spend wards there, though for some, like on the dark enchantments, a rank 5 is more valuable than the ward, so in that case I would use wards to go from 5 to 6.
Under the new system I spent almost double the AD cost to get to rank 7. This is outrageous. This has nothing to do with if people were using the previous system or not, and everything to do with introducing a HUGE AD sink into the game. Not to mention that every player will want 5 rank 30 companions now and many of them start out white or green, to get the passive bonus. Even the companions that start out blue cost a ridiculous amount to upgrade. Hello more AD sinks!
This is the worst MMO I have ever played, from the most greedy publisher ever. I thought Atari was bad, well they are nothing compared to what I am witnessing here. The sad thing is that many people will be too captured by the game to realize how badly they are getting taken advantage of. I see this for what it is, just a cash grab from the most greedy MMO company to ever exist. We all can only hope that ESO and EQN offer good games are fair price instead of the highway robbery that Neverwinter offers in its "free to pay to win" cash shop model...
I defended this game vehemently in beta, and the reputation of the developers. Just enough good things happen to the game to keep your hopes alive. Things like the gear change to mostly bind which helped the game and economy immensely. But then you have things like this refinement system, that are just another reason to never play more than one character ever. Because in this game, the most expensive to play MMO in history, the bottom line dollar cost, along with in game time spent to farm, are just too high to have more than one elite player for someone who has a realistic home income and budget and a limited amount of time to play the game (20-30) hours a week. So much for the casual friendly, free to play, game we were promised. Only players who spend an extreme amount of money, time, or both get ahead in this game and that is obviously intentional.
No wonder PWE can never seem to make more than a niche game. People are just not as stupid as they think we are. It will not be long before we are all gone from this fleecing of out pockets regardless of how good the game mechanics and lore are. This change is simple and for one thing only. To make us fuse more often, and require us to use catalysts to do it. Catalysts will require AD which will be bought with Zen sometimes, or trade bars which will come from keys bought with Zen, or come directly from the Zen store. The motives for this are real simple... it has nothing to do with how often we are using the old system. It has more to do with how rarely anyone is buying Coalescent Wards from the Zen store...
PWE, you need to put your greed in check. Sure you can make a lot of money off of a few people... and the game will die out pretty fast because not enough will be able or willing to pay the price it costs to play this game. But it would be better to make less money per person and make it off of a lot more people and have a healthy and thriving player community.
Lets break this down in real simple terms, if you want to make more money off of the Zen store, then make it so that people are willing to spend rather than just throwing re-skins at us, and now introducing mandatory dollar costs just to play the game. I would have thought PWE learned its lesson in STO... When people left the game in droves over stuff like this... Too greedy, too often, will destroy the reputation of this company within the player community.
If every mount and companion costed 1000 Zen more than 300% sales increase would happen. I think PWE has lost the concept of "micro" transaction. This game is anything but free to play. It is free to try, pay to play, pay more to win. Sure you can level to 60, but good luck getting anywhere without rank 7+ enchantments and augment companions. The game used to be free to try, grind or pay to win. That we could live with, but the refinement system is pay to play, free to suck, period.
Edit: The old system was fine, if you wanted people to use it more often all you had to do was make it easier / cheaper to acquire coalescent and preservation wards and allow un-slotting for gold.
It is real simple. In the old system I would eat 20 wards or less to make a rank 7 enchantment. @ 4,200 AD a piece, that was a simple price of 84,000 AD. And that was the maximum I ever spent. I never bothered to ward rank 3,4, and 5 fusions. I would only ward from 5 to 6, and 6 to 7. I receive plenty of low rank enchantments just playing the game, no need to spend wards there, though for some, like on the dark enchantments, a rank 5 is more valuable than the ward, so in that case I would use wards to go from 5 to 6.
Under the new system I spent almost double the AD cost to get to rank 7. This is outrageous. This has nothing to do with if people were using the previous system or not, and everything to do with introducing a HUGE AD sink into the game. Not to mention that every player will want 5 rank 30 companions now and many of them start out white or green, to get the passive bonus. Even the companions that start out blue cost a ridiculous amount to upgrade. Hello more AD sinks!
This is the worst MMO I have ever played, from the most greedy publisher ever. I thought Atari was bad, well they are nothing compared to what I am witnessing here. The sad thing is that many people will be too captured by the game to realize how badly they are getting taken advantage of. I see this for what it is, just a cash grab from the most greedy MMO company to ever exist. We all can only hope that ESO and EQN offer good games are fair price instead of the highway robbery that Neverwinter offers in its "free to pay to win" cash shop model...
I defended this game vehemently in beta, and the reputation of the developers. Just enough good things happen to the game to keep your hopes alive. Things like the gear change to mostly bind which helped the game and economy immensely. But then you have things like this refinement system, that are just another reason to never play more than one character ever. Because in this game, the most expensive to play MMO in history, the bottom line dollar cost, along with in game time spent to farm, are just too high to have more than one elite player for someone who has a realistic home income and budget and a limited amount of time to play the game (20-30) hours a week. So much for the casual friendly, free to play, game we were promised. Only players who spend an extreme amount of money, time, or both get ahead in this game and that is obviously intentional.
No wonder PWE can never seem to make more than a niche game. People are just not as stupid as they think we are. It will not be long before we are all gone from this fleecing of out pockets regardless of how good the game mechanics and lore are. This change is simple and for one thing only. To make us fuse more often, and require us to use catalysts to do it. Catalysts will require AD which will be bought with Zen sometimes, or trade bars which will come from keys bought with Zen, or come directly from the Zen store. The motives for this are real simple... it has nothing to do with how often we are using the old system. It has more to do with how rarely anyone is buying Coalescent Wards from the Zen store...
PWE, you need to put your greed in check. Sure you can make a lot of money off of a few people... and the game will die out pretty fast because not enough will be able or willing to pay the price it costs to play this game. But it would be better to make less money per person and make it off of a lot more people and have a healthy and thriving player community.
Lets break this down in real simple terms, if you want to make more money off of the Zen store, then make it so that people are willing to spend rather than just throwing re-skins at us, and now introducing mandatory dollar costs just to play the game. I would have thought PWE learned its lesson in STO... When people left the game in droves over stuff like this... Too greedy, too often, will destroy the reputation of this company within the player community.
If every mount and companion costed 1000 Zen more than 300% sales increase would happen. I think PWE has lost the concept of "micro" transaction. This game is anything but free to play. It is free to try, pay to play, pay more to win. Sure you can level to 60, but good luck getting anywhere without rank 7+ enchantments and augment companions. The game used to be free to try, grind or pay to win. That we could live with, but the refinement system is pay to play, free to suck, period.
Edit: The old system was fine, if you wanted people to use it more often all you had to do was make it easier / cheaper to acquire coalescent and preservation wards and allow un-slotting for gold.
Agree ^^
As stated here and in many previous posts, using the fact that many items in game from vendors and shops are not used is a poor reason or excuse to completly change things, the reason players dont buy these items is because they are just completely over priced, many of these items can be readily purchased through the AH at 50% or less cost, so why use the vendors, its pretty obvious.
It is not because these are no fun or complecated it is the FACT they are just way way overpriced.
If items in shops and vendors were at a more balanced cost more players would use the vendors, at presant not one uses them so they net zero income, so no point having them in game, now if the prices were slightly more lower and brought into line with the economy players would use them, hence they would then have a net income.
It just makes alot more marketing sence to say sell 100 items at 50k AD over a month period, than only sell one for 200k AD over the same period.
EG: the mount upgrade system, no one is going to pay 2.8 milion to upgrade a white horse mount to purple, when you can buy a nightmare mount in the AH for 1 milion or less in the AH
Seriously it costs 3 times more to upgrade your old mount to epic quality than it does to buy a complete new epic .
how does that make sence ? and why do you think players dont use the system ? it is NOT because the system is complecated and NOT because it is no fun, it is because it is just bassicaly a rip off..
I would really like to have data on how many ADs one LVL60 char generates per day on average to get a better feel what "fees" are appropriate. For me the AD cost alone is barely manageable. I'd consider myself a very active player (several hours per day) although I have more fun leveling and gearing up chars rather than grinding CN/T2 for AD-revenue.
I would really like to have data on how many ADs one LVL60 char generates per day on average to get a better feel what "fees" are appropriate. For me the AD cost alone is barely manageable. I'd consider myself a very active player (several hours per day) although I have more fun leveling and gearing up chars rather than grinding CN/T2 for AD-revenue.
I feel pretty much the same, I have far more fun rolling a new or another character than spending frustrating hours trying to keep my main lvl 60 characters even just semi competative.
Alot of AD income relys alot on sheer luck, mostly in dungeon drops, but that also relys on alot of luck in getting a half decent group and even more luck that the group all stays until the end boss, or that no one DC's mid way through, none of these can be controled by you.
End game is severly unbalanced especialy for new lvl 60's or casual players, unless you boost your self by spending large amounts of money on Zen to help purchase gear. This was suposed to be a free to play game and was suposed to have all content available to free to play players but it is slowly but surely becoming pay to win in every aspect of the game, even more so for casual players with limited play time available.
Of all the things that needed to be fix in the game, the refining system was not one of them. Why? Or better yet, how did anyone think this new system was easier then the old system? This new system is absolutely ridiculous. It is also 100% not needed. At best the only thing needed was lowering the AD cost for unslotting enchantments since like almost everything that Cryptic set the AD cost for, they are insanely high when compared to the amount of ADs when can get a day.
Simply put, if this new refining system goes live, I can see a lot of players leaving over it. Sorry but this new system is a failure.
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dalang3dMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 29Arc User
This is what I get from what's been said in this thread too. Please fix the bug with the Preview Shard so everyone can test things for themselves! - This would be my feedback:rolleyes:
We used to get Rank 7 and lower Enchantment and Runes fairly easy and for free, now it's going to cost AD and we have to use a Catalyst and we still get an X% chance to fail, and I think this is what scare most people. At the same time getting the Rank 8 and above Enchantment and Runes is going to be cheaper and I think this is what some people like about this new system. Personally, I don't mind the new system, but all my Enchantment and Runes are Rank 6 and above, on my main at least, so I can't wait to upgrade them now, that it's going to be easier. However, my situation is not representative for everyone, and I understand why so many players are upset.
ambisinisterr is making a lot of sense here:
Originally Posted by ambisinisterr
Feedback: How would I make it better?
1) Catalysts shouldn't exist at all but most certainly not before level 5.
2) Remove the AD costs below level 5.
3) Cut the AD costs to 1/2 their proposed fee after level 5.
4) Adjust the failure rates to not be so diabolical.
I.E.
To Rank 10: 15%
To Rank 9: 25%
To Rank 8: 40%
To Rank 7: 55%
To Rank 6: 65%
Couldn't you give us the X% chance to fail without involving the Catalyst? The price of failure could be something like 15% of total RP, which would mean next to nothing for lower Ranks and, obviously, more for higher Ranks, which seems appropriate, to me at least.
Okay that i would support(make a small change to the suggestion of ambisinisterr. Eating RP instead of the catalyst. Because the catalyst is eaten by the fusing itself or not? So you can farm the enchant for the eaten RP and avoid the AD-cost for every eaten catalyst.
Feedback: General: Catalyst acquiring and Astral Diamonds expending
The new system meets expectations , but some things really make him a terror to casual players and players who do not buy Zen frequently.
***One of the biggest problems is : drop these catalysts epic dungeons will be very difficult starting from the idea that dungeons are only made in the event of dungeon delves , and also the price of them in Wondrous Bazaar is very high , increasing the time you take to have capacity in Gear Score, making the end game dungeons like Castle Never . If you buy a catalyst in Wondrous Bazaar , you will spend more than that a character can refine per day .
****Another problem is the lack of space to carry all those items that are necessary to improve our enchantments .
****At the end of it all , if a revision is needed on how these items will be obtained , their price would be lower in Wondrous Bazaar , a new tab to store everything related to enchantments, and last but not least , you will have you choose, spend astral diamonds and no chance of failure (obviously for a larger amount of astral diamonds ) or spend the catalysts .
Thanks for your attention, and hope i get a reply
Levi Gomes Costa Jr.
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kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
edited November 2013
My honest opinion is that this is making the game very much pay-to-win. I really hate pay-to-win games and I think they will lose a lot of players who can't afford to buy lots of Zen to convert to AD. This new module seems to be a social experiment of sorts. Give us all this awesome stuff - the Hunter Ranger class, Artifacts, Sword Coast Adventures, etc., and then throw in something that is so horribly awful - the refinement system, and see how many people decide to stay and deal with the changes.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
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trygliMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 24Arc User
edited November 2013
I posted something about this in another topic, and I realised it would be more in place here. I'll try to keep it short.
Type: Feedback
In the topic they were talking about the total price to build a perfect enchantment from scratch and what the total AD cost would be at predicted shard prices, not including the refinement cost. Like many people, on some level I'm a bit worried about the prices. But my major concern lies with the fact that hundreds of milions of AD are being flushed out of the game with this system. This creats deflation.
For those that don't understand what this means: There will be a shortage of AD, making prices drop in the AH, and that means it will be a lot harded to save up AD. Let's just say that something currently cost 5M AD, with this system you can build the same enchantment for 4M AD. That seems 20% cheaper, right? Sadly, it isn't. Over time, if you compare the worth of that 4M with this system to 5M without it, 5M without it is probably cheaper.
Conclusion:
When the total amount of AD that is being flushed out of the system get's closer to the amount of AD that is generated, the economy collapses. Which is bad for the players, and bad for the game owners as well. When people can't afford to buy ZEN with their AD's, people don't buy ZEN with real money because they can't sell their ZEN anymore.
Suggestion:
The amount of AD that is being flushed out of the system musst be compensated. Some options:
1 Remove AD cost completely (for balance you probably have to increase needed RP which is basicly the same as the current system).
2 Lower AD cost (doesn't solve the problem, but might limit it to an acceptable level)
3 Add more dailies and raise daily refine limit (Just saying it's an option, personally i'm opposed by this, with rhix and zone dailies we have plenty of that)
4 Award bigger rewards for daily quests, and raise the daily refine limit.
Personally, I think a combiation of 2 and 4 might be a good solution. Feel free to come up with more options.
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petestarksMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
It is real simple. In the old system I would eat 20 wards or less to make a rank 7 enchantment. @ 4,200 AD a piece, that was a simple price of 84,000 AD. And that was the maximum I ever spent. I never bothered to ward rank 3,4, and 5 fusions. I would only ward from 5 to 6, and 6 to 7. I receive plenty of low rank enchantments just playing the game, no need to spend wards there, though for some, like on the dark enchantments, a rank 5 is more valuable than the ward, so in that case I would use wards to go from 5 to 6.
Under the new system I spent almost double the AD cost to get to rank 7. This is outrageous. This has nothing to do with if people were using the previous system or not, and everything to do with introducing a HUGE AD sink into the game. Not to mention that every player will want 5 rank 30 companions now and many of them start out white or green, to get the passive bonus. Even the companions that start out blue cost a ridiculous amount to upgrade. Hello more AD sinks!
This is the worst MMO I have ever played, from the most greedy publisher ever. I thought Atari was bad, well they are nothing compared to what I am witnessing here. The sad thing is that many people will be too captured by the game to realize how badly they are getting taken advantage of. I see this for what it is, just a cash grab from the most greedy MMO company to ever exist. We all can only hope that ESO and EQN offer good games are fair price instead of the highway robbery that Neverwinter offers in its "free to pay to win" cash shop model...
I defended this game vehemently in beta, and the reputation of the developers. Just enough good things happen to the game to keep your hopes alive. Things like the gear change to mostly bind which helped the game and economy immensely. But then you have things like this refinement system, that are just another reason to never play more than one character ever. Because in this game, the most expensive to play MMO in history, the bottom line dollar cost, along with in game time spent to farm, are just too high to have more than one elite player for someone who has a realistic home income and budget and a limited amount of time to play the game (20-30) hours a week. So much for the casual friendly, free to play, game we were promised. Only players who spend an extreme amount of money, time, or both get ahead in this game and that is obviously intentional.
No wonder PWE can never seem to make more than a niche game. People are just not as stupid as they think we are. It will not be long before we are all gone from this fleecing of out pockets regardless of how good the game mechanics and lore are. This change is simple and for one thing only. To make us fuse more often, and require us to use catalysts to do it. Catalysts will require AD which will be bought with Zen sometimes, or trade bars which will come from keys bought with Zen, or come directly from the Zen store. The motives for this are real simple... it has nothing to do with how often we are using the old system. It has more to do with how rarely anyone is buying Coalescent Wards from the Zen store...
PWE, you need to put your greed in check. Sure you can make a lot of money off of a few people... and the game will die out pretty fast because not enough will be able or willing to pay the price it costs to play this game. But it would be better to make less money per person and make it off of a lot more people and have a healthy and thriving player community.
Lets break this down in real simple terms, if you want to make more money off of the Zen store, then make it so that people are willing to spend rather than just throwing re-skins at us, and now introducing mandatory dollar costs just to play the game. I would have thought PWE learned its lesson in STO... When people left the game in droves over stuff like this... Too greedy, too often, will destroy the reputation of this company within the player community.
If every mount and companion costed 1000 Zen more than 300% sales increase would happen. I think PWE has lost the concept of "micro" transaction. This game is anything but free to play. It is free to try, pay to play, pay more to win. Sure you can level to 60, but good luck getting anywhere without rank 7+ enchantments and augment companions. The game used to be free to try, grind or pay to win. That we could live with, but the refinement system is pay to play, free to suck, period.
Edit: The old system was fine, if you wanted people to use it more often all you had to do was make it easier / cheaper to acquire coalescent and preservation wards and allow un-slotting for gold.
THIS!!! GOD YES THIS!!!!
I have spent some real money on this game, but never the super high amount other people have because I was always afraid of this. I think anyone that has dropped any money on this game should be foaming at the mouth right now over this "improvement".
People do not use the top end fuse as much because the wards cost $10 USD from the zen store! Do not think of it as zen and AD think of it as USD or whatever currency you are dealing with. I will explain my point in real world money for anyone that is having trouble following along:
1. Rank 10 Rank Dark Enchantment or Perfect Vorpal at the AH right now cost ~6mill AD.
2. At the last exchange rate I recall(397AD/1Zen) that is a cost of 15,113 Zen.
3. 15,113 Zen cost ~151 USD to purchase.
4. Drown a basket of the cutest puppies or kittens you can find from the rage that some people are spending the equivalent of $150 USD for pixels that go inside of another item that is also made of pixels!!!!1 inside a "GAME!"
5. Breathe and patch up any holes in the walls and dispose of now deceased cute animals you rage murdered(please don't rage murder anything cute folks)
I think I just cracked the code right kids! Who wants to spend that kind of money? Even if you have a nice amount of disposal income why would you waste that much of it on a pixel? For that money you could go do other crazy things like take your significant other out for a date, pay a utility bill, 1 week of groceries, a new altenator for your car ect, ect... that is a lot of money! Now, it gets even worse when you see people with more than 1 rank 10 and perfect vorpal AND perfect soulforge. These people have crazy money invested into this stuff. The casual player will never drop that kind of money on a "game" EVER!
In the end anything that increases the cost even 1 penny more should be sacked and sent back to the drawing board. Have we not suffered enough? We need lower prices, not higher prices for digital objects. I know you will say that most people grind the diamond and never pay USD/ect for these things, but that is irrelevant. You can still put those diamond into Zen and Zen has a real world value that PWE has set.
I hope this was educational and I hope it pissed you off A LOT! Honestly, I figure the only people that have these decked out $100s in enchantments either cheated them somehow or were fleeced out of an ton of time and/or money.
Feedback: How would I make it better? 1) Catalysts shouldn't exist at all but most certainly not before level 5.
2) Remove the AD costs below level 5.
3) Cut the AD costs to 1/4 their proposed fee after level 5.
4) Adjust the failure rates to not be so diabolical.
1. If the drop rates are reasonable and in line with what amenar posted earlier, then you may as well introduce the concept from the beginning. My experience so far suggests that either I'm really unlucky, or drop rates are very low and in need of increasing.
2/3. I might be alright with something that started out as 10/50/100/500. I don't know what is reasonable beyond that, perhaps 1000/5000/10000/25000/50000. I could be tempted with 1000 to upgrade from 5-6, not 5000 as it is currently though.
Personally, I think a combiation of 2 and 4 might be a good solution. Feel free to come up with more options.
Of the options, I like 2 and 4 as well. If you're going to do something with dailies I'd also look at reducing the number of foundries needed. I used to do these until I hit the point of requiring 4 for 4000 AD. That's no longer an achievable daily, for me least.
You could also raise the AD received for invoking if you want a small amount more per character. This is easy to acheive for everyone.
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rapticorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,078Arc User
If you're going to do something with dailies I'd also look at reducing the number of foundries needed. I used to do these until I hit the point of requiring 4 for 4000 AD. That's no longer an achievable daily, for me least.
You don't have to do them all in one day. Do 2 then the next day do the other 2. Net effect is 2k a day so not any different than when you only had to do 2.
our data shows that many players are not engaging in the current system due to the frustration of using it.
How does this more frustrating system help with this? All it seems to do is increase AD costs and frustration.
The simple reality is most people don't bother with enchants above 7 because of the cost/benefit ratio. You just increased that cost. Not only in the AD cost of ranking enchants but by driving up enchant demand because of artifacts.
Right now it costs 700k+ for a rank 8 dark. Which gets you 35 stat points over a rank 7. With diminishing returns it's just not worth it. Address that problem (i.e. drop the costs or increase the benefit) and people will go to 8's and above.
You know what Cryptic? I wonder... what would happen with your newest Refine system if instead of us paying in Astral Diamonds (AD), you'd accept Refinement payments in Rough Astral Diamonds (RAD).
Leave the extra resources and the need for catalysts, wards etc... just make the AD fee a RAD fee instead.
I think that may radically change the dynamics of Neverwinter grinding, and since it'd be accessible to everyone, there would be no need to buy from botters and botters would have little to no advantage in the AH.
Then again, I'm probably being naive, thinking that Neverwinter ought to be play-to-compete rather than pay-to-compete.
____________________________________________
The poster formerly known as LordOfPit, and his blog.
* Dec 2007 (CO)
* Oct 2008 (STO)
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
So many ppl lacking basic math and logik...
New system is way cheaper and more convinient than previous. Bottom line. Tx devs
. . . . . Funny because according to my math, spending 0 Zen and 0 AD in this system in its current form is still spending nothing. While in the new forum, I am mandated that I must spend something no matter what. So yes, according my math, very basic math, I will be spending millions more than I have been previously. Maybe you should take more things into account than trying to attack another person or persons with idiotic statements.
Comments
I've been saying this same thing since Beta.
Transmutation costs, Enchantment extraction, Mount upgrades, The level 60 special items in the wonderous Bazaar and in recent content update about the Companion upgrades. The AD upgrades are outrageous.
The same data they conspired for this refinement system, is even reflected in the data for the above things there. Obviously with that data if it was even looked at, could be seeing as its nothing wrong with the system itself, its the outrageous costs of AD they expect players to make for them.
I'm looking at the fact I can only possibly make, at most, 24K AD per day per character and in reality I never make that much. I might make 20-30K AD a day average between all five of my characters unless I spend a large amount of times in dungeons and get lucky. And I am not what anybody would call a casual player, I am on quite a bit, at least four hours a day average.
So when you say only 400K for a perfect, yeah I'm not overly complaining about that side. That side is overall better.
I am just flabberghasted at how much worse rank 1-10 is. I don't look at a rank 10 and say "oh that's only 400K" because the truth of it is that I see 400K times fourteen slots just on your character as well as three on at least one companion plus the cost of actual enchantments to feed these things to that level. Then I have to see that I have five characters...
The AD cost is just one of the problems with this system.
This isn't being friendly to casual players. I hear that argument and I shake my head at it because a "casual friendly" game would leave a person like me with absolutely no goals. When I hear even my own guild members complain they had to do a dungeon ten times to get a piece of gear I gawk and say "yeah...and if you got it after the first time what would you do!? What would you shoot for?!"
What I want is grinds that are friendly to a more hardcore player because right now with all of the time and effort I have put into the game I am nowhere close to even a single rank 10. If I pooled together all of my resources I wouldn't have a single rank 10. That's just wrong considering all of the time I have spent playing in the last six months.
This system cut the farming in half but upped the cost in AD exponentially.
Where am I getting the AD to pay for this? If this was the only thing in the game worth AD yeah, sure but I have a ton of things to spend AD on and it's all overpriced. Even right now I can't even think about buying Zen with AD because there's so many things for me to spend my AD on just to advance within the game that I have absolutely no extra at any given time.
So taking an AD sink and making it mandatory without reducing the cost to a reasonable price is going to <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> me off.
And it's sad because we're really super, super happy and excited for Module 2 yet this one aspect is just so bad it is almost ruining the rest of Module 2 for us. For the first two days of Module 2 being on the preview we were actually as happy as we could possibly be and then we looked into the details of this system and we are a bunch of schizophrenic people going from super happy about everything to doom and gloom about this...thing.
And the more I look into it the more I hate it.
Now first off, I can assure you this update is still subject to change. This thread isn't an announcement of finality and feedback can change what we see in live.
However you don't spend months on a system just to scrap it completely. At this point the current system will be changed whether it's with the release of Module 2 or later on if they need more time to refine this system. So at this point we can expect change to be inevitable but that's not a bad thing as while I completely disagree with their reasonings and solutions I do agree a change is in order.
Feedback: How would I make it better?
1) Catalysts shouldn't exist at all but most certainly not before level 5.
2) Remove the AD costs below level 5.
3) Cut the AD costs to 1/4 their proposed fee after level 5.
4) Adjust the failure rates to not be so diabolical.
I.E.
To Rank 10: 15%
To Rank 9: 25%
To Rank 8: 40%
To Rank 7: 55%
To Rank 6: 65%
First the idea is nice, i love using other enchants (silver) to level out another enchantment (dark) you want which balances out the enchantment values. However, the AD sink that forces us to pay upfront to combine enchant is a terrible way to do it. The old system allowed us to have a CHOICE in whether to destroy the enchantment or save it, like with many people, enchantment at R5 or lower; it is more cost effective to destroy than to unbind. However, the new system forces us to pay the ad UPFRONT no matter what so at R1-5 you're losing AD already. I think you're trying to make gold relevant again, but just make the gold the cost to enchant, and keep AD cost to remove (although it could be lowered)
TL;DR gold to enchant (pay alittle gold to combine silver and dark) , AD to remove (lower cost would be nice too)
If they don't make the wards as a time sink/AD sink, where they can put them? At which point you REALLY need AD? I don't find out that. Yes you can buy zen for it, but you need this? No. You can buy companions with this, but you need them? No. Upgrading companion is a help, but needed? NO! Mount? Don't need a faster mounter. This game has several opportunity to sink your ad, but they are utility, not a needed factor. I understand your point about farming better equip alone, but with the old system it's really bad, but with the new it's total easier. And it only cost AD instead of a huge time sink. And sorry if you can't achieve any growth if you have to play more than 2 chars. Make a suggestion how the should/could change to be better.
upgraded be allowed to be put in stacks
---
I think alot of people are misunderstanding the hole system
like i did at first, at first glance it looks like bs, but after
figuring it out, it seems nice, but yea it might be expensive
but it was built for over time rather then on the spot crafting.
but that is what i gather now after messing with it.
Heck, I may even consider buying ZEN from time to time and with $$$ not AD!
Oh, another thing... I've seen some videos on Youtube of people illegally obtaining obscene amounts of AD using hacks that modified client files. Until you can guarantee that your game has no such hacks, anything you do to force people to spend AD in-game should be met with a frown, no matter how accessible that system is made.
We're not simpletons, and we don't need to do math or economics to figure out when something that was previously free now costs us!
The poster formerly known as LordOfPit, and his blog.
* Dec 2007 (CO)
* Oct 2008 (STO)
15 Coalescent wards per Perfect Enchantment and over 2000 Rank 4 Runes per rank 10 isn't enough of a time sink?
Wowee...
I'd hate to find out what you consider a horrible grind.'
Let's say this system goes in as-is. That's 5,866,000 AD just to get full rank 10's on your character just in refinement fees.
That's 244 days refining AD just to get full rank 10's.
Right now I have one Rank 8, two Rank 7's and a bunch of rank 5's in my gear. I don't need rank 10's to play the game but it's obvious this system is a reaction to the fact the old system had nobody made upper end enchantments. Unless the fees change this system will be no different.
If you want to be so literal though, take out AD from the game entirely. You don't need anything you buy with AD. Just take it out. That's what you just said: they finally put AD on something semi-required so we actually would spend it on something.
The point is that if they simply cut all the AD costs of all the optional stuff they wouldn't have to do this. If I didn't feel like I lost an arm and a leg removing enchantments before I would have paid the fee...but no...it was upwards of 350K to remove a single enchantment. Not happening.
You are ultimately playing devil's advocate and are really not doing a good job of it. 'You don't need ____' is always a horrible excuse for anything. I don't need to buy Zen either but I'd like to buy things if they were priced correctly and I'm sure Cryptic/PWE does too.
The trick is to make me want to spend my time and money...
And they want you to spend AD in AD sinks as it is a crucial part of the in-game economy. In fact the entire reason for the switch, I guarantee, is because of the lack of people using AD sinks.
But people will continue to not use AD sinks until Cryptic accepts all of their AD sinks are stupidly overpriced.
Mandating overpriced sinks will result in one thing and one thing only: exodus.
We used to get Rank 7 and lower Enchantment and Runes fairly easy and for free, now it's going to cost AD and we have to use a Catalyst and we still get an X% chance to fail, and I think this is what scare most people. At the same time getting the Rank 8 and above Enchantment and Runes is going to be cheaper and I think this is what some people like about this new system. Personally, I don't mind the new system, but all my Enchantment and Runes are Rank 6 and above, on my main at least, so I can't wait to upgrade them now, that it's going to be easier. However, my situation is not representative for everyone, and I understand why so many players are upset.
ambisinisterr is making a lot of sense here:
Couldn't you give us the X% chance to fail without involving the Catalyst? The price of failure could be something like 15% of total RP, which would mean next to nothing for lower Ranks and, obviously, more for higher Ranks, which seems appropriate, to me at least.
" A hero is no braver than anyone else....they are just braver five minutes longer"
Under the new system I spent almost double the AD cost to get to rank 7. This is outrageous. This has nothing to do with if people were using the previous system or not, and everything to do with introducing a HUGE AD sink into the game. Not to mention that every player will want 5 rank 30 companions now and many of them start out white or green, to get the passive bonus. Even the companions that start out blue cost a ridiculous amount to upgrade. Hello more AD sinks!
This is the worst MMO I have ever played, from the most greedy publisher ever. I thought Atari was bad, well they are nothing compared to what I am witnessing here. The sad thing is that many people will be too captured by the game to realize how badly they are getting taken advantage of. I see this for what it is, just a cash grab from the most greedy MMO company to ever exist. We all can only hope that ESO and EQN offer good games are fair price instead of the highway robbery that Neverwinter offers in its "free to pay to win" cash shop model...
I defended this game vehemently in beta, and the reputation of the developers. Just enough good things happen to the game to keep your hopes alive. Things like the gear change to mostly bind which helped the game and economy immensely. But then you have things like this refinement system, that are just another reason to never play more than one character ever. Because in this game, the most expensive to play MMO in history, the bottom line dollar cost, along with in game time spent to farm, are just too high to have more than one elite player for someone who has a realistic home income and budget and a limited amount of time to play the game (20-30) hours a week. So much for the casual friendly, free to play, game we were promised. Only players who spend an extreme amount of money, time, or both get ahead in this game and that is obviously intentional.
No wonder PWE can never seem to make more than a niche game. People are just not as stupid as they think we are. It will not be long before we are all gone from this fleecing of out pockets regardless of how good the game mechanics and lore are. This change is simple and for one thing only. To make us fuse more often, and require us to use catalysts to do it. Catalysts will require AD which will be bought with Zen sometimes, or trade bars which will come from keys bought with Zen, or come directly from the Zen store. The motives for this are real simple... it has nothing to do with how often we are using the old system. It has more to do with how rarely anyone is buying Coalescent Wards from the Zen store...
PWE, you need to put your greed in check. Sure you can make a lot of money off of a few people... and the game will die out pretty fast because not enough will be able or willing to pay the price it costs to play this game. But it would be better to make less money per person and make it off of a lot more people and have a healthy and thriving player community.
Lets break this down in real simple terms, if you want to make more money off of the Zen store, then make it so that people are willing to spend rather than just throwing re-skins at us, and now introducing mandatory dollar costs just to play the game. I would have thought PWE learned its lesson in STO... When people left the game in droves over stuff like this... Too greedy, too often, will destroy the reputation of this company within the player community.
If every mount and companion costed 1000 Zen more than 300% sales increase would happen. I think PWE has lost the concept of "micro" transaction. This game is anything but free to play. It is free to try, pay to play, pay more to win. Sure you can level to 60, but good luck getting anywhere without rank 7+ enchantments and augment companions. The game used to be free to try, grind or pay to win. That we could live with, but the refinement system is pay to play, free to suck, period.
Edit: The old system was fine, if you wanted people to use it more often all you had to do was make it easier / cheaper to acquire coalescent and preservation wards and allow un-slotting for gold.
Agree ^^
As stated here and in many previous posts, using the fact that many items in game from vendors and shops are not used is a poor reason or excuse to completly change things, the reason players dont buy these items is because they are just completely over priced, many of these items can be readily purchased through the AH at 50% or less cost, so why use the vendors, its pretty obvious.
It is not because these are no fun or complecated it is the FACT they are just way way overpriced.
If items in shops and vendors were at a more balanced cost more players would use the vendors, at presant not one uses them so they net zero income, so no point having them in game, now if the prices were slightly more lower and brought into line with the economy players would use them, hence they would then have a net income.
It just makes alot more marketing sence to say sell 100 items at 50k AD over a month period, than only sell one for 200k AD over the same period.
EG: the mount upgrade system, no one is going to pay 2.8 milion to upgrade a white horse mount to purple, when you can buy a nightmare mount in the AH for 1 milion or less in the AH
Seriously it costs 3 times more to upgrade your old mount to epic quality than it does to buy a complete new epic .
how does that make sence ? and why do you think players dont use the system ? it is NOT because the system is complecated and NOT because it is no fun, it is because it is just bassicaly a rip off..
I feel pretty much the same, I have far more fun rolling a new or another character than spending frustrating hours trying to keep my main lvl 60 characters even just semi competative.
Alot of AD income relys alot on sheer luck, mostly in dungeon drops, but that also relys on alot of luck in getting a half decent group and even more luck that the group all stays until the end boss, or that no one DC's mid way through, none of these can be controled by you.
End game is severly unbalanced especialy for new lvl 60's or casual players, unless you boost your self by spending large amounts of money on Zen to help purchase gear. This was suposed to be a free to play game and was suposed to have all content available to free to play players but it is slowly but surely becoming pay to win in every aspect of the game, even more so for casual players with limited play time available.
Of all the things that needed to be fix in the game, the refining system was not one of them. Why? Or better yet, how did anyone think this new system was easier then the old system? This new system is absolutely ridiculous. It is also 100% not needed. At best the only thing needed was lowering the AD cost for unslotting enchantments since like almost everything that Cryptic set the AD cost for, they are insanely high when compared to the amount of ADs when can get a day.
Simply put, if this new refining system goes live, I can see a lot of players leaving over it. Sorry but this new system is a failure.
Okay that i would support(make a small change to the suggestion of ambisinisterr. Eating RP instead of the catalyst. Because the catalyst is eaten by the fusing itself or not? So you can farm the enchant for the eaten RP and avoid the AD-cost for every eaten catalyst.
Category: New Refinement System
Feedback: General: Catalyst acquiring and Astral Diamonds expending
The new system meets expectations , but some things really make him a terror to casual players and players who do not buy Zen frequently.
***One of the biggest problems is : drop these catalysts epic dungeons will be very difficult starting from the idea that dungeons are only made in the event of dungeon delves , and also the price of them in Wondrous Bazaar is very high , increasing the time you take to have capacity in Gear Score, making the end game dungeons like Castle Never . If you buy a catalyst in Wondrous Bazaar , you will spend more than that a character can refine per day .
****Another problem is the lack of space to carry all those items that are necessary to improve our enchantments .
****At the end of it all , if a revision is needed on how these items will be obtained , their price would be lower in Wondrous Bazaar , a new tab to store everything related to enchantments, and last but not least , you will have you choose, spend astral diamonds and no chance of failure (obviously for a larger amount of astral diamonds ) or spend the catalysts .
Thanks for your attention, and hope i get a reply
Levi Gomes Costa Jr.
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
Type: Feedback
In the topic they were talking about the total price to build a perfect enchantment from scratch and what the total AD cost would be at predicted shard prices, not including the refinement cost. Like many people, on some level I'm a bit worried about the prices. But my major concern lies with the fact that hundreds of milions of AD are being flushed out of the game with this system. This creats deflation.
For those that don't understand what this means: There will be a shortage of AD, making prices drop in the AH, and that means it will be a lot harded to save up AD. Let's just say that something currently cost 5M AD, with this system you can build the same enchantment for 4M AD. That seems 20% cheaper, right? Sadly, it isn't. Over time, if you compare the worth of that 4M with this system to 5M without it, 5M without it is probably cheaper.
Conclusion:
When the total amount of AD that is being flushed out of the system get's closer to the amount of AD that is generated, the economy collapses. Which is bad for the players, and bad for the game owners as well. When people can't afford to buy ZEN with their AD's, people don't buy ZEN with real money because they can't sell their ZEN anymore.
Suggestion:
The amount of AD that is being flushed out of the system musst be compensated. Some options:
1 Remove AD cost completely (for balance you probably have to increase needed RP which is basicly the same as the current system).
2 Lower AD cost (doesn't solve the problem, but might limit it to an acceptable level)
3 Add more dailies and raise daily refine limit (Just saying it's an option, personally i'm opposed by this, with rhix and zone dailies we have plenty of that)
4 Award bigger rewards for daily quests, and raise the daily refine limit.
Personally, I think a combiation of 2 and 4 might be a good solution. Feel free to come up with more options.
THIS!!! GOD YES THIS!!!!
I have spent some real money on this game, but never the super high amount other people have because I was always afraid of this. I think anyone that has dropped any money on this game should be foaming at the mouth right now over this "improvement".
People do not use the top end fuse as much because the wards cost $10 USD from the zen store! Do not think of it as zen and AD think of it as USD or whatever currency you are dealing with. I will explain my point in real world money for anyone that is having trouble following along:
1. Rank 10 Rank Dark Enchantment or Perfect Vorpal at the AH right now cost ~6mill AD.
2. At the last exchange rate I recall(397AD/1Zen) that is a cost of 15,113 Zen.
3. 15,113 Zen cost ~151 USD to purchase.
4. Drown a basket of the cutest puppies or kittens you can find from the rage that some people are spending the equivalent of $150 USD for pixels that go inside of another item that is also made of pixels!!!!1 inside a "GAME!"
5. Breathe and patch up any holes in the walls and dispose of now deceased cute animals you rage murdered(please don't rage murder anything cute folks)
I think I just cracked the code right kids! Who wants to spend that kind of money? Even if you have a nice amount of disposal income why would you waste that much of it on a pixel? For that money you could go do other crazy things like take your significant other out for a date, pay a utility bill, 1 week of groceries, a new altenator for your car ect, ect... that is a lot of money! Now, it gets even worse when you see people with more than 1 rank 10 and perfect vorpal AND perfect soulforge. These people have crazy money invested into this stuff. The casual player will never drop that kind of money on a "game" EVER!
In the end anything that increases the cost even 1 penny more should be sacked and sent back to the drawing board. Have we not suffered enough? We need lower prices, not higher prices for digital objects. I know you will say that most people grind the diamond and never pay USD/ect for these things, but that is irrelevant. You can still put those diamond into Zen and Zen has a real world value that PWE has set.
I hope this was educational and I hope it pissed you off A LOT! Honestly, I figure the only people that have these decked out $100s in enchantments either cheated them somehow or were fleeced out of an ton of time and/or money.
2/3. I might be alright with something that started out as 10/50/100/500. I don't know what is reasonable beyond that, perhaps 1000/5000/10000/25000/50000. I could be tempted with 1000 to upgrade from 5-6, not 5000 as it is currently though.
4. Yes please.
Of the options, I like 2 and 4 as well. If you're going to do something with dailies I'd also look at reducing the number of foundries needed. I used to do these until I hit the point of requiring 4 for 4000 AD. That's no longer an achievable daily, for me least.
You could also raise the AD received for invoking if you want a small amount more per character. This is easy to acheive for everyone.
You don't have to do them all in one day. Do 2 then the next day do the other 2. Net effect is 2k a day so not any different than when you only had to do 2.
Still, it would be a way to increase AD income by a small amount for some people.
How does this more frustrating system help with this? All it seems to do is increase AD costs and frustration.
The simple reality is most people don't bother with enchants above 7 because of the cost/benefit ratio. You just increased that cost. Not only in the AD cost of ranking enchants but by driving up enchant demand because of artifacts.
Right now it costs 700k+ for a rank 8 dark. Which gets you 35 stat points over a rank 7. With diminishing returns it's just not worth it. Address that problem (i.e. drop the costs or increase the benefit) and people will go to 8's and above.
Leave the extra resources and the need for catalysts, wards etc... just make the AD fee a RAD fee instead.
I think that may radically change the dynamics of Neverwinter grinding, and since it'd be accessible to everyone, there would be no need to buy from botters and botters would have little to no advantage in the AH.
Then again, I'm probably being naive, thinking that Neverwinter ought to be play-to-compete rather than pay-to-compete.
The poster formerly known as LordOfPit, and his blog.
* Dec 2007 (CO)
* Oct 2008 (STO)
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