i think a lot of people don't really understand how the new system is designed to work and how better it is than the old fuse-four system. there are a few threads in here that explain it pretty well, but then more AHH! feedback hits the thread.
is it possible to do a twitch.tv demonstration of how this works? or a youtube video?
Hopefully they take this as a lesson learned and when they plan on introducing a major change like this in the future at least they'll provide a little more information, even if it's something like just a quick FAQ, as to how things are supposed to work rather than just throwing it out there and go "Here you go" which leads to speculation and confusion.
Well, people are saying that the new system is cheaper then the actual, right?
So, tell me, I made a rank 7 dark enchant with the enchats I had drop, and the wards I had droped. 0 AD cost.
How is it the same with the new system, that you have to pay AD for each upgrade you made?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited November 2013
. . . . . So, my broke butt will now be completely broke and no inventory space ever. Hmm. No thanks. Please reconsider this. I was not removing enchants BECAUSE of the cost, there is no way in the Nine Hells I am going to pay a mandatory cost.
tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
For those who accidentally pressed sort and lost an enchant with a bunch of RP on it, just unpile the stack and you'll find the enchant with RP at the bottom.
RIP Neverwinter 26/06/2014
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dardoveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
. . . . . So, my broke butt will now be completely broke and no inventory space ever. Hmm. No thanks. Please reconsider this. I was not removing enchants BECAUSE of the cost, there is no way in the Nine Hells I am going to pay a mandatory cost.
I am finding I have more inventory since I can now immediately throw in any enchantments I find into whichever enchantments and artifacts I'm working on ranking up.
Due to the change in removing, I'm actually willing to both remove enchantments to use in another piece of equipment (I like most others wouldn't pay the AD) and actually more willing and able to work on making higher level enchantments since I'm no longer afraid to get a new piece of equipment that will require removing or replacing the enchantments I have in my old one.
The upfront AD costs suck, since I had tried to limit AD usage on enchantments, but I can learn to live with it.
The catalyst is not a big deal, because it will drop from bosses, professions and will be sold for ad(for who have rivers of AD, like the people here saying the AD cost is no problem).
dardove
I'm lvl 60, and I'm making like 5k AD AT MAXIMUM per day (RGNgods hate me with drops in dungeons). I know I dont want to upgrade enchat every day, but just calculate how many days I will be able to upgrade a single enchant oO
As I said before, I had made a rank 7 dark using the enchants I had droped, and the wards I had droped. 0 AD cost. How the new system can be cheaper? IWeird ahn?
Second, we want to say "oops" for not having the Catalysts in the AD store when it went up to Preview. They will be in the build that should be going up tomorrow. The intent is that enough of these will be dropping in the world (from skill nodes and bosses, mostly) that you won't need or want to buy them from the AD store, but we want to have the option there to ensure that you'll always have access to them.
Read what amenar wrote. Until we see the pricing and drop rates on these catalysts its pointless to assume anything. But from what I understand the skill nodes will only provide green catalysts and the epic ones will drop in high end dungeons and will be sold in AD store.
Also somebody asked if coals are now pointless, not the case- coals still raise the % of success on any upgrading to 100%, the % stayed the same for all blue shards and lesser, normal, greater, perfect - 1%... so yeah, we still need the coals
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medievalmissMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 20Arc User
edited November 2013
I don't like this system at all! I don't unslot enchants now because of the AD cost, so that is the only change that I like. I could live with the feeding enchants to rank up and the catalyst requirement, but the additional AD cost is a non-starter. If this goes live, it is unlikely that I will enchant anything anymore. I will just do whatever I can beforehand and use those. Please reconsider this!
As promised, here's the more complete and edited version of the chart I made. I still need info on upgrading to Rank 10 and perfects. Please post if you have it so I can incorporate it into my chart.
And to make it clear, this is not a total cost analysis chart. It can be used to help calculate the total costs to reach a particular rank.
The only catalyst I have been able to verify is the lesser Mark of Potency and that it drops from skill nodes throughout the PvE areas (lvl 58-60). The lesser Mark is a "green" which implies the minor Mark (white) is found in lower level skill nodes.
But the blue and purple Marks I have not seen and can only guess that they drop like the blue shards and the epic loot from bosses and dungeon chests. Anyone want to form a 5 man team and do a couple of epic dungeons on the preview shard?
tl;dr: If you're talking about the "current fusing system didn't cost any ADs at all", you're completly ignoring the cost of material--be it the enchantments themself, the preservation wards or the coalescent wards.
That's going to depends a lot on how you play the game or what "level" you play at. I've yet to spend a single AD on anything enchantment related. I don't think I've earned any AD from it either. Astral diamonds are more valuable to me than enchantments, that's not going to change, at least in the foreseeable future. General enchantments are very common and I've capped my enchantment usage at level 5/6 as a result of the potential costs involved. I've been stockpiling all me preservation and coalescent wards until I had gear I planned to keep for a while.
So, what we currently have is a system with avoidable costs, but with some sacrifices in terms of what you get out of it.
This is all largely my own fault, so to speak, as I don't have lots of time to play the game, so I don't spend lots of money on the game and don't engage in activities that could earn me lots of AD.
Ultimately it's not a big deal, my feedback is simply that I will continue to avoid AD costs in an enchantment system until such time as AD becomes less valuable to me than enchantments.
Feedback: General: Slotting Enchantments Wow... This is just terrible imo. I feel like the new system is overly complex for the sake of being overly complex.
Two stage process. Why? I just don't understand why we need a 2 step process with extra materials that seems to require more then the standard 4 enchants to upgrade.
As previously stated each enchantment now needs its own inv space depending on level of refinement. Why? Trying to sell more bags?
Charged AD when upgrade is successful. Why? Trying to sell more zen?
IMO, this is a terrible system which will on frustrate new and old players alike. I don't understand what possible benefit this is supposed to provide.
Foundry - Fight Club? (nw-dluqbofu7)
- JailBreak (in development)
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dardoveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Bug: Refining Barkshield Shards When Refining bound barkshield shards from a stack, the resulting lesser enchantments are bound. This might be due to previous bug.
Really hope this shard bug is fixed, otherwise it could be a nasty exploit to get tons of lesser enchantments.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited November 2013
I am going to try to say this as nicely as possible but I don't like this system so much a bit more bite than I intend might come out...
There are three problems with the current enchantment system:
High chance of failure
High cost of runes/enchantments
High AD costs (through removal/wards)
This new system solves none of that.
There was nothing wrong with the old system per say except it required too much devotion to go past rank 7 or 8. If the data shows people weren't using it then take a step back and think why people weren't using it because it wasn't because the system was fundamentally flawed.
Now that said I don't dislike the new system per say but it's an over-complicated mess that the more I look into it the more I hate it. It makes ranking up even low level runes costly and time consuming.
I've done a fair bit of checking on my high level runes and it seems that up until level 5-6 it is cheaper to upgrade in the cost of runes but after that point the system actually gets more expensive in the portions of the system that were the only part to ever be expensive to begin with!
And then we come to the AD costs. Let's think about this...
Nobody paid to unslot enchantments under level 6. The costs to make those enchantments was simply less than the already high cost of unslotting the enchantments. So players felt discouraged from putting enchantments lower than level 7 or so in gear and basically everybody used level 5 enchantments as fillers until such a point they could farm enough to get at least a level 7. Are we in agreement thus far?
Why the hell would you think taking that cost out of unslotting and putting it into upgrading is a good idea!?
People avoided unslotting for a reason. 100K AD is anywhere from 2-3 dollars. Some of the upper end enchantments cost 350K AD or so to unslot. Something we had to do to even upgrade the enchantment. The cost is a problem. Spreading it out doesn't fix the cost. Doesn't make it any more reasonable. Doesn't make it any more possible.
This game is so fast to level in. I want it to slow down.
This game has top end gear drop like candy. I want filler items for a more natural progression with items of value other than gear.
However the one area you have managed to make into a slow grind was enchantment system. It's too much of a grind.
You can make it flashy. You can make it pretty. You can rework things so that the system doesn't seem like it is hurting players.
But all you have done was mandated the ungodly high costs. You have forced in the cost rather than allowing a chance of grinding it out without AD and all this without solving anything that plagued the original system.
It's just as much and based on my first impression even more of a grind to get the enchantments and you haven't laxed the horrible brick wall that is hit after level 5 due to the horrendous failure chance.
Enchantments is actually one of the areas the players are most interested in. It's not for lack of caring the original system failed. Just check the wiki for proof of how much interest we have.
If you want to know why the original system flopped and why this one is even worse (just for making a bad system more complicated to mask the bad) then just read the graphs.
There's an estimated rune cost based on the failure chances.
Rank 10's will take ~118K rank 4's to make.
Rank 9's take ~9K Rank 4's.
So when we look at an alternate graph we can see that Rank 9-10 has a 10% chance of success. That's a 90% chance of failure. In laymen's terms "use a coalescent ward stupid!" That's a 125-150K AD cost or if we go by the ludicrously overpriced Zen Shop Fee $10.
That's not reasonable. That's not acceptable. If this was a single character game maybe but even then we have 14 enchantment slots just on one character. Potentially 3 more on just a single companion. Then the fact of the matter is this game either has to encourage multi-character progression or not. The enchantment system makes it nigh impossible to get a single rank 10, let alone 14 rank 10's and no way in hell are you going to be able to work on maxing multiple character's enchantments.
The problem wasn't the system. The problem was the costs and time or real life funds required to beat that cost. I have farmed. I have ground. I am nowhere close.
This system, in my eyes, can only make things worse as it doesn't fix the problems with the current system. It complicates it and while in some ways it can make runes cheaper it adds an additional catalyst cost and unless you price them reasonably (as in no more than 5K in the shop) it has too much potential to cause the opposite effect and end up simply adding another high cost value.
And then when we look at the shop prices, 50K for a rank 3 enchantment, suddenly my heart drops and it makes me fear the future...
I noticed that as well. Not sure if it's intended or not.
If it is, okay the system is somewhat viable for armor/weapon enchantments but I don't like the fact you can pay $10 and get 20 shards into lessers or pay $10 and make a single shard into a lesser.
However...
If that's not intended...
Point blank, no arguing, no debate they have made the already pricy prospect of creating weapon and armor enchantments and increased the price. Nothing more. Nothing less. Just an outright price increase to an already over the top fee.
Oh and BTW if you want to know just how stupidly overbearing the current system is, and the new system does next to nothing to resolve since they added built in fees, perfect enchantments cost 64 Coalescent Wards.
In terms of Zen Shop Prices that's $640.
In terms of Ah prices at 120K AD and 400 AD to Zen conversion it's 192 dollars.
And that is why the old system failed. It has nothing to do with anything expect obscenely unreasonable amount of farming and high prices.
Previously
Cost = nothing. Did not care about losing enchantments from fusing failures (up to Rank 6 for me) as it was relatively easy to get new lower level enchantments (up to rank 4). I like this. New system
Cost = AD for each level rank up. I don't like this at these lower levels.
Feedback
"Cost" of old system is better than the cost of the new system. This is where I feel like I'm being nickeled and dimed to death for trying to rank up my enchants.
Suggest eliminating AD cost for all rank 6 and lower refinements (at the very least, rank 4 and lower).
Ranking up high level enchantments
(Rank 7 and above)
Previously
Cost = unslot AD cost + coalescent ward(s) AD cost (or time to collect ward drops) + time to collect shard drops or rank up lower level enchantments
New system
Cost = unslot Gold cost + significantly reduced number of coalescent wards needed + time to collect and "RP grind" any enchantment drops and RP bonus items.
Feedback I like
• the change from AD to Gold for unslotting enchantments and runes.
• the "reduced" cost of refining the upper level enchantments when compared to the previous unslot AD cost.
• the reduced number of coalescent wards needed to rank up a level (2 vs 5)
• the bonus RP items - so far I've seen and used 100 RP and 500 RP item.
I like
• losing the option of upgrading for "free" (0 AD) by using (and consuming) preservation wards to make Rank 7 and Rank 8 enchantments/runes (and possibly Rank 9 and Rank 10).
(Weapon and Armor enchantments)
Previously
Cost = unslot AD cost + coalescent ward(s) AD cost (or time to collect ward drops) + time to collect shard drops or rank up lower level enchantments
New system
Cost = unslot Gold cost + significantly reduced number of coalescent wards needed + time to collect and "RP grind" any enchantment drops and RP bonus items.
Feedback
I like the new system for this group of enchantments....so far.
But the 2 areas of concern are
1) drop rate and accessibility of the blue and purple Marks of Potency
2) the amount of "grind time".
Previously the grind time was dominated by coalescent ward drops and earning enough AD to buy coalescent wards. This was then followed by how long it took to collect enough shards to make a lesser and then how long it took to make or buy more lessers to make a normal, etc.
Now the grind time is reduced for the coalescent wards simply by the number of wards needed. But the collection of shards seems like it could take longer because of the point accumulation system vs number of shards required. And the new "third" collection item introduced (mark of potency) seems like it can add to the time to make an upgrade. These last 2 unknowns could easily make it just as long (so why change the system?) or even longer to upgrade.
I need more feedback/info and hands-on with this part of the new system.
In General
Previously
I'm "wasting" a lot of inventory space collecting and leveling all the ranks of enchantments that I want to collect which is all of them at this point since I'm still trying to figure out which enchantments and runes I like the best.
It was easy to see what enchantments were selling for on the Auction House and figure out what I would need to make an enchantment to sell on the Auction House. ie. I could look at my inventory of lower level enchantments and figure out how much more I would need to make the "best selling" enchantment in terms of (# of lower level enchantments needed + any coalescent wards needed).
New system
I can reduce the inventory waste of the lower level ranks by refining them immediately into the highest level rank enchantment that I have (ie. I will only have 1 set of enchantments instead of multiple sets of the same enchantments and various rank levels).
Building an enchantment for sale on the auction house now means determing (# of refining points needed + cost of coalescent wards + time/cost of Marks of Potency + AD cost of refining)
Feedback
I like
• the reduction of inventory space this system will provide, but...
I don't like
• that it makes it more complicated to follow and keep track of, and quite probably more expensive to make and sell enchantments on the Auction House.
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dardoveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Oh and BTW if you want to know just how stupidly overbearing the current system is, and the new system does next to nothing to resolve since they added built in fees, perfect enchantments cost 64 Coalescent Wards.
In terms of Zen Shop Prices that's $640.
In terms of Ah prices at 120K AD and 400 AD to Zen conversion it's 192 dollars.
A perfect enchantment now only requires 15 coal wards. You need 2 lesser shards to make a normal, 2 normals to make a greater, and 2 greaters to make a perfect. You need one that will get upgraded along the way and one that is used as a catalyst. The refining points can come from any enchantment, runestone, and shards to fill up the refining points. The best way is to use shards of the same type to get the bonus refining points.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited November 2013
Assuming the original lack of coal wards for lessers is a bug:
1 For Lesser.
3 For Normal.
9 For Greater.
27 For Perfect.
Unless I am mistaken You need 2 catalyst enchantments in addition to the enchantment you are upgrading.
It's about a third the price. That's awesome. Oh wait now we have to add in the horrendous AD costs!
25K (simple)
125K (3 Lessers, plus upgrade)
1,200K (3 Normals, plus Upgrade)
3,600K (3 Greaters, plus assumed 100K upgrade)
Total Cost 174 Dollars.
And that's without the cost of the catalysts included. So it's a whopping 20 dollars saved if they put the cost of catalysts at 0 AD in this new system unless I am wrong and one of the catalysts can be the enchantment we are actually trying to level up.
EDIT - Assumptions: AD @ 400:1 Zen. Coal Wards @ 125K AD.
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited November 2013
. . . . . I'm sorry, I am not paying millions of AD for enchanting. That it down right stupid. There are far too many AD sinks in this game already. I have loved this game with a passion unlike any other and I absolutely love everything else about Module 2 but this enchantment system is a game stopper for me. One AD sink change too far. You should be removing/reducing some of these AD sinks, not adding to them. I am still rather peeved about having to spend AD to transmute... now also to enchant? No way in the Nine Hells.
. . . . . I don't raise my dissatisfaction much, as I am usually happy or content. This is too much. Far too much. Please do reconsider this system or at least think about the ramifications this will cause and the reason why your figures show players weren't removing enchantments.
. . . . . While I'm at it, please also look at all these other over-priced AD sinks in the game and do something about them too. Yes, I am upset, yes I am sick, yes I am not a happy consumer.
dardoveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
I agree, that by adding in AD costs to enchantments, they should reexamine the AD sinks in the game. In particular, mount training tomes and companion upgrades.
and Artifact System will eat enchantments to and we have 3 Artifact to charge so in the end enchantments will be few times expensive
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited November 2013
I seem to remember seeing a requirement for two lessers when I was looking at the Holy Avengers I have been saving up. But never the less because I forgot the RP costs.
Shards grant 4320. You will need 104 shards to make a perfect. Much less than previously but I suspect the prices of shards will be raising none-the-less.
But let's do the math for the cut backed version.
1
3
7
15
25K
100K
275K
650K
Total Cost: 2.525M AD or $63.12 for a perfect. This is a third of the price but does not include the 104 shard requirement nor the catalyst cost.
We're still talking in the millions for each enchant. Each and every single enchant costing millions of AD. I hate to agree but the game has enough AD sinks. Period. The AD sinks should be heavily reduced in fee if not in quantity so adding a new mandatory one is just, no. I love the game but adding in AD sinks to the point that character progression requires purchases or months upon months of AD Grinds are not where Cryptic should be focusing on trying to make sales.
The costs of coalescent wards is more than enough without killing us on additional AD sink fees.
I did the smart thing: don't take enchantments out of slots. If they want to insist on an enchant AD sink keep it the way it was and let people opt out of it rather than noticing nobody uses the AD sink so simply force it's use. If the AD sinks weren't so overpriced people would use them and they wouldn't have to switch to such tactics...
Would I like to have gold removal fees? Hell yes!
But not at the price of mandatory upgrading fees. Another AD sink is the last thing I want to see. Ever at this point unless the prices for all of them are brought down drastically in price because until then my enchants are worth less than my AD.
Under the new system you only need 2 lesser to make a normal, 2 normals to make a greater, and 2 greaters to make a perfect. You can use anything to get the refining points, including just using the shards if you want the bonus for using the same type.
You need 2 under the new system because 1 that will get refined up to the next rank and one that is burned up as a catalyst. This reduces the number of coals you will need to make a perfect (but there is the increase in AD cost that now comes from a successful refining).
i agree with you on this new system, but the less coal not make cost cheaper bcause of catalyst item hard to find.
on my screen to make normal i just need
4 shard + 1 coal + 25k AD = 1 lesser [ need 1 coal]
2 Lesser + 1 coal + 1 greater mark of potency[MOP] + 50k AD = 1 Normal [3 coal]
but to make greater or perfect, unknown exactly what i need, may be :
2 Normal + 1 coal + 1 greater or perfect MOP + 75k or 100k AD = 1 greater [7 coal]
2 greater + 1 coal + 1 perfect MOP + 100k or 200k AD = 1 perfect [15 coal]
i just hope the price of greater or perfect mark of potency is not too expensive... [because of hard to find greater or perfect MOP it'll be rising the cost, and people just find 2 lesser MOP on 20 skill node, hmmm... should i uninstal this game? ]
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katbozejziemiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 856Arc User
And what sinks are you talking about exactly? Upgrading mount/companion quality?
Currently, if you are patient enough, you can fuse your own R9's and perfects for free(coffers for coal wards, farm tons of shards and enchants). With the proposed system you cannot, regardless of how many shards you farm, you will need AD.
RIP Neverwinter 26/06/2014
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
And what sinks are you talking about exactly? Upgrading mount/companion quality?
. . . . . I have never paid a single AD to refine any of my enchantments, and never will. If you are, then you're doing it wrong.
. . . . . AD sinks? Oh geeze... let's see... Transmutation, Wondrous Bazaar, Sharandar/Campaign System, Sharandar Vendors, Mount Upgrading, Companion Upgrading, Enchant Removal, Companion Renaming, Auction House (Not really a "sink," but sure as the Nine Hells feels like one), and the list goes on. Let's also not forget to mention the constant influx of things for Zen that entice one to spend ADs in the Exchange. Enough is enough. The monetization of this game is through the roof for being a free to play game. One item in the Zen shop can easily cost as much, if not more, than a brand new game out of the box.
. . . . . Poor marketing. Greedy marketing. I wish they would take the working sentiment in their Eastern market that Less Sell More instead of thinking More Sells More here in the West. Completely backwards. Go to a Chinese or Korean free to play game based in that respective region and it's literally all nickles and dimes. Come to the Americas and it's all tens of dollars. I'm tired of it.
Comments
Hopefully they take this as a lesson learned and when they plan on introducing a major change like this in the future at least they'll provide a little more information, even if it's something like just a quick FAQ, as to how things are supposed to work rather than just throwing it out there and go "Here you go" which leads to speculation and confusion.
So, tell me, I made a rank 7 dark enchant with the enchats I had drop, and the wards I had droped. 0 AD cost.
How is it the same with the new system, that you have to pay AD for each upgrade you made?
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I am finding I have more inventory since I can now immediately throw in any enchantments I find into whichever enchantments and artifacts I'm working on ranking up.
Due to the change in removing, I'm actually willing to both remove enchantments to use in another piece of equipment (I like most others wouldn't pay the AD) and actually more willing and able to work on making higher level enchantments since I'm no longer afraid to get a new piece of equipment that will require removing or replacing the enchantments I have in my old one.
The upfront AD costs suck, since I had tried to limit AD usage on enchantments, but I can learn to live with it.
The space reqired is lesser now, but the AD cost is absurd.
dardove
How could you live with it? Are you a zen buyer or a hardcore gamer? Because the AD profit I have daily, is by far lesser then the cost,
The catalyst is not a big deal, because it will drop from bosses, professions and will be sold for ad(for who have rivers of AD, like the people here saying the AD cost is no problem).
dardove
I'm lvl 60, and I'm making like 5k AD AT MAXIMUM per day (RGNgods hate me with drops in dungeons). I know I dont want to upgrade enchat every day, but just calculate how many days I will be able to upgrade a single enchant oO
As I said before, I had made a rank 7 dark using the enchants I had droped, and the wards I had droped. 0 AD cost. How the new system can be cheaper? IWeird ahn?
Also somebody asked if coals are now pointless, not the case- coals still raise the % of success on any upgrading to 100%, the % stayed the same for all blue shards and lesser, normal, greater, perfect - 1%... so yeah, we still need the coals
And to make it clear, this is not a total cost analysis chart. It can be used to help calculate the total costs to reach a particular rank.
The only catalyst I have been able to verify is the lesser Mark of Potency and that it drops from skill nodes throughout the PvE areas (lvl 58-60). The lesser Mark is a "green" which implies the minor Mark (white) is found in lower level skill nodes.
But the blue and purple Marks I have not seen and can only guess that they drop like the blue shards and the epic loot from bosses and dungeon chests. Anyone want to form a 5 man team and do a couple of epic dungeons on the preview shard?
So, what we currently have is a system with avoidable costs, but with some sacrifices in terms of what you get out of it.
This is all largely my own fault, so to speak, as I don't have lots of time to play the game, so I don't spend lots of money on the game and don't engage in activities that could earn me lots of AD.
Ultimately it's not a big deal, my feedback is simply that I will continue to avoid AD costs in an enchantment system until such time as AD becomes less valuable to me than enchantments.
Wow... This is just terrible imo. I feel like the new system is overly complex for the sake of being overly complex.
Two stage process. Why? I just don't understand why we need a 2 step process with extra materials that seems to require more then the standard 4 enchants to upgrade.
As previously stated each enchantment now needs its own inv space depending on level of refinement. Why? Trying to sell more bags?
Charged AD when upgrade is successful. Why? Trying to sell more zen?
IMO, this is a terrible system which will on frustrate new and old players alike. I don't understand what possible benefit this is supposed to provide.
- JailBreak (in development)
When you refine a weapon or armor shard into a lesser weapon/armor enchantment from a stack of shards, it turns the entire stack into lesser weapon/armor enchantments (minus the catalyst cost if it comes from that same stack).
Elven Battle shards before refining
Same stacks of shards and enchantments after refining once.
Bug: Refining Barkshield Shards
When Refining bound barkshield shards from a stack, the resulting lesser enchantments are bound. This might be due to previous bug.
Really hope this shard bug is fixed, otherwise it could be a nasty exploit to get tons of lesser enchantments.
There are three problems with the current enchantment system:
This new system solves none of that.
There was nothing wrong with the old system per say except it required too much devotion to go past rank 7 or 8. If the data shows people weren't using it then take a step back and think why people weren't using it because it wasn't because the system was fundamentally flawed.
Now that said I don't dislike the new system per say but it's an over-complicated mess that the more I look into it the more I hate it. It makes ranking up even low level runes costly and time consuming.
I've done a fair bit of checking on my high level runes and it seems that up until level 5-6 it is cheaper to upgrade in the cost of runes but after that point the system actually gets more expensive in the portions of the system that were the only part to ever be expensive to begin with!
And then we come to the AD costs. Let's think about this...
Nobody paid to unslot enchantments under level 6. The costs to make those enchantments was simply less than the already high cost of unslotting the enchantments. So players felt discouraged from putting enchantments lower than level 7 or so in gear and basically everybody used level 5 enchantments as fillers until such a point they could farm enough to get at least a level 7. Are we in agreement thus far?
Why the hell would you think taking that cost out of unslotting and putting it into upgrading is a good idea!?
People avoided unslotting for a reason. 100K AD is anywhere from 2-3 dollars. Some of the upper end enchantments cost 350K AD or so to unslot. Something we had to do to even upgrade the enchantment. The cost is a problem. Spreading it out doesn't fix the cost. Doesn't make it any more reasonable. Doesn't make it any more possible.
This game is so fast to level in. I want it to slow down.
This game has top end gear drop like candy. I want filler items for a more natural progression with items of value other than gear.
However the one area you have managed to make into a slow grind was enchantment system. It's too much of a grind.
You can make it flashy. You can make it pretty. You can rework things so that the system doesn't seem like it is hurting players.
But all you have done was mandated the ungodly high costs. You have forced in the cost rather than allowing a chance of grinding it out without AD and all this without solving anything that plagued the original system.
It's just as much and based on my first impression even more of a grind to get the enchantments and you haven't laxed the horrible brick wall that is hit after level 5 due to the horrendous failure chance.
Enchantments is actually one of the areas the players are most interested in. It's not for lack of caring the original system failed. Just check the wiki for proof of how much interest we have.
If you want to know why the original system flopped and why this one is even worse (just for making a bad system more complicated to mask the bad) then just read the graphs.
There's an estimated rune cost based on the failure chances.
Rank 10's will take ~118K rank 4's to make.
Rank 9's take ~9K Rank 4's.
So when we look at an alternate graph we can see that Rank 9-10 has a 10% chance of success. That's a 90% chance of failure. In laymen's terms "use a coalescent ward stupid!" That's a 125-150K AD cost or if we go by the ludicrously overpriced Zen Shop Fee $10.
That's not reasonable. That's not acceptable. If this was a single character game maybe but even then we have 14 enchantment slots just on one character. Potentially 3 more on just a single companion. Then the fact of the matter is this game either has to encourage multi-character progression or not. The enchantment system makes it nigh impossible to get a single rank 10, let alone 14 rank 10's and no way in hell are you going to be able to work on maxing multiple character's enchantments.
The problem wasn't the system. The problem was the costs and time or real life funds required to beat that cost. I have farmed. I have ground. I am nowhere close.
This system, in my eyes, can only make things worse as it doesn't fix the problems with the current system. It complicates it and while in some ways it can make runes cheaper it adds an additional catalyst cost and unless you price them reasonably (as in no more than 5K in the shop) it has too much potential to cause the opposite effect and end up simply adding another high cost value.
And then when we look at the shop prices, 50K for a rank 3 enchantment, suddenly my heart drops and it makes me fear the future...
I noticed that as well. Not sure if it's intended or not.
If it is, okay the system is somewhat viable for armor/weapon enchantments but I don't like the fact you can pay $10 and get 20 shards into lessers or pay $10 and make a single shard into a lesser.
However...
If that's not intended...
Point blank, no arguing, no debate they have made the already pricy prospect of creating weapon and armor enchantments and increased the price. Nothing more. Nothing less. Just an outright price increase to an already over the top fee.
Oh and BTW if you want to know just how stupidly overbearing the current system is, and the new system does next to nothing to resolve since they added built in fees, perfect enchantments cost 64 Coalescent Wards.
In terms of Zen Shop Prices that's $640.
In terms of Ah prices at 120K AD and 400 AD to Zen conversion it's 192 dollars.
And that is why the old system failed. It has nothing to do with anything expect obscenely unreasonable amount of farming and high prices.
Cost = nothing. Did not care about losing enchantments from fusing failures (up to Rank 6 for me) as it was relatively easy to get new lower level enchantments (up to rank 4). I like this.
New system
Cost = AD for each level rank up. I don't like this at these lower levels.
Feedback
"Cost" of old system is better than the cost of the new system. This is where I feel like I'm being nickeled and dimed to death for trying to rank up my enchants.
Suggest eliminating AD cost for all rank 6 and lower refinements (at the very least, rank 4 and lower).
Previously
Cost = unslot AD cost + coalescent ward(s) AD cost (or time to collect ward drops) + time to collect shard drops or rank up lower level enchantments
New system
Cost = unslot Gold cost + significantly reduced number of coalescent wards needed + time to collect and "RP grind" any enchantment drops and RP bonus items.
Feedback
I like
• the change from AD to Gold for unslotting enchantments and runes.
• the "reduced" cost of refining the upper level enchantments when compared to the previous unslot AD cost.
• the reduced number of coalescent wards needed to rank up a level (2 vs 5)
• the bonus RP items - so far I've seen and used 100 RP and 500 RP item.
I like
• losing the option of upgrading for "free" (0 AD) by using (and consuming) preservation wards to make Rank 7 and Rank 8 enchantments/runes (and possibly Rank 9 and Rank 10).
Previously
Cost = unslot AD cost + coalescent ward(s) AD cost (or time to collect ward drops) + time to collect shard drops or rank up lower level enchantments
New system
Cost = unslot Gold cost + significantly reduced number of coalescent wards needed + time to collect and "RP grind" any enchantment drops and RP bonus items.
Feedback
I like the new system for this group of enchantments....so far.
But the 2 areas of concern are
1) drop rate and accessibility of the blue and purple Marks of Potency
2) the amount of "grind time".
Previously the grind time was dominated by coalescent ward drops and earning enough AD to buy coalescent wards. This was then followed by how long it took to collect enough shards to make a lesser and then how long it took to make or buy more lessers to make a normal, etc.
Now the grind time is reduced for the coalescent wards simply by the number of wards needed. But the collection of shards seems like it could take longer because of the point accumulation system vs number of shards required. And the new "third" collection item introduced (mark of potency) seems like it can add to the time to make an upgrade. These last 2 unknowns could easily make it just as long (so why change the system?) or even longer to upgrade.
I need more feedback/info and hands-on with this part of the new system.
Previously
I'm "wasting" a lot of inventory space collecting and leveling all the ranks of enchantments that I want to collect which is all of them at this point since I'm still trying to figure out which enchantments and runes I like the best.
It was easy to see what enchantments were selling for on the Auction House and figure out what I would need to make an enchantment to sell on the Auction House. ie. I could look at my inventory of lower level enchantments and figure out how much more I would need to make the "best selling" enchantment in terms of (# of lower level enchantments needed + any coalescent wards needed).
New system
I can reduce the inventory waste of the lower level ranks by refining them immediately into the highest level rank enchantment that I have (ie. I will only have 1 set of enchantments instead of multiple sets of the same enchantments and various rank levels).
Building an enchantment for sale on the auction house now means determing (# of refining points needed + cost of coalescent wards + time/cost of Marks of Potency + AD cost of refining)
Feedback
I like
• the reduction of inventory space this system will provide, but...
I don't like
• that it makes it more complicated to follow and keep track of, and quite probably more expensive to make and sell enchantments on the Auction House.
A perfect enchantment now only requires 15 coal wards. You need 2 lesser shards to make a normal, 2 normals to make a greater, and 2 greaters to make a perfect. You need one that will get upgraded along the way and one that is used as a catalyst. The refining points can come from any enchantment, runestone, and shards to fill up the refining points. The best way is to use shards of the same type to get the bonus refining points.
1 For Lesser.
3 For Normal.
9 For Greater.
27 For Perfect.
Unless I am mistaken You need 2 catalyst enchantments in addition to the enchantment you are upgrading.
It's about a third the price. That's awesome. Oh wait now we have to add in the horrendous AD costs!
25K (simple)
125K (3 Lessers, plus upgrade)
1,200K (3 Normals, plus Upgrade)
3,600K (3 Greaters, plus assumed 100K upgrade)
Total Cost 174 Dollars.
And that's without the cost of the catalysts included. So it's a whopping 20 dollars saved if they put the cost of catalysts at 0 AD in this new system unless I am wrong and one of the catalysts can be the enchantment we are actually trying to level up.
EDIT - Assumptions: AD @ 400:1 Zen. Coal Wards @ 125K AD.
Only need 1 enchantment (plus marks of potency) for the catalyst requirement.
. . . . . I don't raise my dissatisfaction much, as I am usually happy or content. This is too much. Far too much. Please do reconsider this system or at least think about the ramifications this will cause and the reason why your figures show players weren't removing enchantments.
. . . . . While I'm at it, please also look at all these other over-priced AD sinks in the game and do something about them too. Yes, I am upset, yes I am sick, yes I am not a happy consumer.
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Shards grant 4320. You will need 104 shards to make a perfect. Much less than previously but I suspect the prices of shards will be raising none-the-less.
But let's do the math for the cut backed version.
1
3
7
15
25K
100K
275K
650K
Total Cost: 2.525M AD or $63.12 for a perfect. This is a third of the price but does not include the 104 shard requirement nor the catalyst cost.
We're still talking in the millions for each enchant. Each and every single enchant costing millions of AD. I hate to agree but the game has enough AD sinks. Period. The AD sinks should be heavily reduced in fee if not in quantity so adding a new mandatory one is just, no. I love the game but adding in AD sinks to the point that character progression requires purchases or months upon months of AD Grinds are not where Cryptic should be focusing on trying to make sales.
The costs of coalescent wards is more than enough without killing us on additional AD sink fees.
I did the smart thing: don't take enchantments out of slots. If they want to insist on an enchant AD sink keep it the way it was and let people opt out of it rather than noticing nobody uses the AD sink so simply force it's use. If the AD sinks weren't so overpriced people would use them and they wouldn't have to switch to such tactics...
Would I like to have gold removal fees? Hell yes!
But not at the price of mandatory upgrading fees. Another AD sink is the last thing I want to see. Ever at this point unless the prices for all of them are brought down drastically in price because until then my enchants are worth less than my AD.
i agree with you on this new system, but the less coal not make cost cheaper bcause of catalyst item hard to find.
on my screen to make normal i just need
4 shard + 1 coal + 25k AD = 1 lesser [ need 1 coal]
2 Lesser + 1 coal + 1 greater mark of potency[MOP] + 50k AD = 1 Normal [3 coal]
but to make greater or perfect, unknown exactly what i need, may be :
2 Normal + 1 coal + 1 greater or perfect MOP + 75k or 100k AD = 1 greater [7 coal]
2 greater + 1 coal + 1 perfect MOP + 100k or 200k AD = 1 perfect [15 coal]
i just hope the price of greater or perfect mark of potency is not too expensive... [because of hard to find greater or perfect MOP it'll be rising the cost, and people just find 2 lesser MOP on 20 skill node, hmmm... should i uninstal this game? ]
And what sinks are you talking about exactly? Upgrading mount/companion quality?
Currently, if you are patient enough, you can fuse your own R9's and perfects for free(coffers for coal wards, farm tons of shards and enchants). With the proposed system you cannot, regardless of how many shards you farm, you will need AD.
. . . . . AD sinks? Oh geeze... let's see... Transmutation, Wondrous Bazaar, Sharandar/Campaign System, Sharandar Vendors, Mount Upgrading, Companion Upgrading, Enchant Removal, Companion Renaming, Auction House (Not really a "sink," but sure as the Nine Hells feels like one), and the list goes on. Let's also not forget to mention the constant influx of things for Zen that entice one to spend ADs in the Exchange. Enough is enough. The monetization of this game is through the roof for being a free to play game. One item in the Zen shop can easily cost as much, if not more, than a brand new game out of the box.
. . . . . Poor marketing. Greedy marketing. I wish they would take the working sentiment in their Eastern market that Less Sell More instead of thinking More Sells More here in the West. Completely backwards. Go to a Chinese or Korean free to play game based in that respective region and it's literally all nickles and dimes. Come to the Americas and it's all tens of dollars. I'm tired of it.
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