Last comment for now - we put the AD cost on Upgrading the items because we removed the (much larger) AD cost required for Unslotting them. We still want AD to play a part in the Refinement/Enchantment process, but it was a big barrier to using the system when slotting an Enchantment was such a huge commitment due to the cost of removing it. We'd rather have smaller, up front costs for Upgrading than the current large recurring costs whenever you get a new item.
This is the main problem and the main disconnect with the players.
It isn't a "much larger" AD cost if no one pays it. We all ignore unslotting because it's too expensive.
You see it as a large cost for unslotting swapped for a smaller charge for upgrading.
We see it as a zero cost for unslotting (because we don't use it) swapped for an exorbitant cost for higher level enchants.
If cost is prohibitive for slotting, what do you think will happen when you shift that cost to fusing? Yes, slotting is now affordable, but slotting what exactly when no one bothers to upgrade anything.
Under your system, if you remove the catalysts, what is the negative when you fail to refine and don't have a preservation ward to protect?
Yeah good point. It would have to be the diamond cost in this case. Or maybe a percentage of the RP cost.
0
baylen76Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
Simplicity / Participation:
The current system /is/ simple – doubleclick enchantment, click fuse, done. It's just 3 clicks, it doesn’t get more simple. It’s insta-win or lose, with success chances clearly stated. The new system on Preview is worse in comparison; it has hidden considerations (Is it better to feed it same-stat or it different stats at market prices?), more numbers to learn (how many RP points will this and that give me? Are there differences depending on rank?) more material components / organisational overhead (catalysts) and a less linear/transparent total material cost progression. Unleashed to live, it would lead to endless questions in /zone, “had I known” posts and so on. It is anything but more simple/transparent and would, in total, lead to /less/ participation.
A need for more components / AD costs?
If you plan to drop “sufficient” catalysts from skill nodes and bosses anyway, they’re plain redundant from a game-mechanical viewpoint – the same skill nodes already drop our runestones/enchantments. You could cut the catalysts out and just adjust the total cost of runes. Also naming them catalysts is misleading – in chemistry, catalysts never get used up – in your system they do, both on success and failure. Not to mention that since the end of ME3, catalysts are bad, baad – but I digress.
AD cost: The current system allows you to make runes without any AD at all – overwrite the old rune and done, putting the fictional total material cost of the new rune to sub-125%. As the unslotting AD cost was unacceptably high, it was almost always skipped in favour of overwriting. Thus, it’s not legit to compare a new unavoidable AD cost to something that almost never came into effect. The new system just ramps up the cost, lowering participation yet again. Additionally, you reward exploiters who made high level enchants while stones were duplicatable months ago. Those loaded alts are laughing with mad glee right now as they see their goods value skyrocket, while new players and casuals get shafted.
It’s quite debatable if an AD sink of this magnitude is even needed. Companion upgrade costs are horrendously high, campaigns come with AD fees attached and the Auction house acts as a constant drain, all the while AD influx from refining is capped at 24k. With constant high costs, the less AD you get for your zen, the less attractive it is to sell it. Even the much-needed Waukeen remonetization of the economy only impacted prices by +40 (and even less if you factor Lillend sale out). My stance: Draining too many AD from circulation hurts zen sales and thus the game.
Space considerations:
Right now you have 5 useful enchantments/runestones (player ones and eldritch); if you were to hoard what you loot/get from leadership and adventuring (R2-R4) that’s 15 slots being taken up. For efficiency reasons, I won’t go past rank 8 on my enchantments (I play casually like 2-3 hours on most days, under the old system, this allows me to make about one single R8 a month), so I wouldn’t benefit from upgrading my already in-slot runes. Instead, I’d have to keep in-progress runes in inventory (5 again as same-stat feeding is most effective) plus those new marks of potency or whatever (4) in order to either sell or to gear up an alt. So yes, I might go from 15 to 9 slots, freeing up 6 slots. That doesn’t nearly compensate for all of the negatives above. In my case even less as I was nice enough to buy a Bag of Holding already.
I’m sorry, but in conclusion this mess of a refinement system is, at best, a case of “The road to hell is paved with good intentions.”
Under the new system you only need 2 lesser to make a normal, 2 normals to make a greater, and 2 greaters to make a perfect. You can use anything to get the refining points, including just using the shards if you want the bonus for using the same type.
You need 2 under the new system because 1 that will get refined up to the next rank and one that is burned up as a catalyst. This reduces the number of coals you will need to make a perfect (but there is the increase in AD cost that now comes from a successful refining).
If you use just shards to refine with, you would only need 4 coalescents. If it follows the same pattern as enchantments where the lesser enchantment is equal in in ratio in refinement points to its value to create the greater enchantment (ie 3 rank 1s to make a rank 2 means rank ones are worth 5 RP and rank 2s are worth 15 RP), then it is always better to use the lower enchantment because it cuts the extra AD, catalyst, and ward cost from upgrading each enchantment out of the equation, and reduces it to just the one enchantment you are upgrading.
Total 60 Shards and 4 Coalescent to make a perfect. Way cheaper with those materials. Everything hinges on the cost and availability of the Catalysts. Add 56 shards to the cost if you use non-alike shards. But heck, those elven battle shards are way cheaper than vorpal ones.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
I think there is a lot of misunderstanding around this. The enchantment value in RP is equal to the total value of the number of the previous rank enchantments is takes to upgrade the enchantment. What this means is it is always better to use the lowest level of the enchantment you obtain to refine with. Any enchantment you refine with should not be upgraded to be used for the purpose of refining. The only enchants you should upgrade is the ones to be used as a final enchantment.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
0
dardoveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
If you use just shards to refine with, you would only need 4 coalescents. If it follows the same pattern as enchantments where the lesser enchantment is equal in in ratio in refinement points to its value to create the greater enchantment (ie 3 rank 1s to make a rank 2 means rank ones are worth 5 RP and rank 2s are worth 15 RP), then it is always better to use the lower enchantment because it cuts the AD, catalyst, and ward cost out of the equation.
Total 60 Shards and 4 Coalescent to make a perfect. Way cheaper with those materials. Everything hinges on the cost and availability of the Catalysts.
For weapon/armor enchantments you also need to use a weapon/armor enchantment of the same type and rank as of the part of the catalyst cost. For example, to upgrade a lesser vorpal enchantment to a normal vorpal enchantment, you need to use a greater mark of potency and another lesser vorpal enchantment as the catalyst. The same goes for upgrading rank 7-9 enchantments/runestones.
Also the refining point cost isn't equal across all ranks. At rank 1-4, it only takes 2 enchantment of the same type and quality to max out the refining points. A rank one enchantment needs 20 refining points and a rank one enchantment of the same type gives 10 points (any other type provides 5). At rank 4-6, it requires 3 enchantments of the same type and quality to make out the refining points. A rank one enchantment requires 810 points to upgrade and a matching enchantment gives 270. Then at rank 7-9 it requires 4 enchantments of the same type and quality to make out the refining points. A rank 7 enchantment (or lesser weapon/armor enchantment). A rank 7 enchantment needs 34,560 refining points to move up to rank 8 and an enchantment of the same type and rank gives 8640 refining points.
For weapon/armor enchantments you also need to use a weapon/armor enchantment of the same type and rank as of the part of the catalyst cost. For example, to upgrade a lesser vorpal enchantment to a normal vorpal enchantment, you need to use a greater mark of potency and another lesser vorpal enchantment as the catalyst. The same goes for upgrading rank 7-9 enchantments/runestones.
Also the refining point cost isn't equal across all ranks. At rank 1-4, it only takes 2 enchantment of the same type and quality to max out the refining points. A rank one enchantment needs 20 refining points and a rank one enchantment of the same type gives 10 points (any other type provides 5). At rank 4-6, it requires 3 enchantments of the same type and quality to make out the refining points. A rank one enchantment requires 810 points to upgrade and a matching enchantment gives 270. Then at rank 7-9 it requires 4 enchantments of the same type and quality to make out the refining points. A rank 7 enchantment (or lesser weapon/armor enchantment). A rank 7 enchantment needs 34,560 refining points to move up to rank 8 and an enchantment of the same type and rank gives 8640 refining points.
So it would take 15 Coalescents still. Still a lot less than 85. I'll have to go back on test when I get the chance to check ratios for enchantment usuage.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Do you really NEED coalescent wards, or they only a help? Currently you really NEED them for shards and at R7+ stones.
What's the benefit of them on PTS and the sense of preservation wards?
0
dardoveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
So it would take 15 Coalescents still. Still a lot less than 85. I'll have to go back on test when I get the chance to check ratios for enchantment usuage.
Which is the number I quoted in my post you corrected....
Do you really NEED coalescent wards, or they only a help? Currently you really NEED them for shards and at R7+ stones.
What's the benefit of them on PTS?
Coal wards still preform the same function they do under this system as they do under the old fusing system.
For weapon/armor enchantments you also need to use a weapon/armor enchantment of the same type and rank as of the part of the catalyst cost. For example, to upgrade a lesser vorpal enchantment to a normal vorpal enchantment, you need to use a greater mark of potency and another lesser vorpal enchantment as the catalyst. The same goes for upgrading rank 7-9 enchantments/runestones.
Also the refining point cost isn't equal across all ranks. At rank 1-4, it only takes 2 enchantment of the same type and quality to max out the refining points. A rank one enchantment needs 20 refining points and a rank one enchantment of the same type gives 10 points (any other type provides 5). At rank 4-6, it requires 3 enchantments of the same type and quality to make out the refining points. A rank one enchantment requires 810 points to upgrade and a matching enchantment gives 270. Then at rank 7-9 it requires 4 enchantments of the same type and quality to make out the refining points. A rank 7 enchantment (or lesser weapon/armor enchantment). A rank 7 enchantment needs 34,560 refining points to move up to rank 8 and an enchantment of the same type and rank gives 8640 refining points.
Are you sure the 34,560 number is right? That would mean it would take 128 rank 4s of the same type to go from rank 7 to 8. Right now assuming zero failure, it takes 256 rank 4s to get to rank 8. Reality of failures actually puts that number closer to 352 if you start using wards at rank 6. That is almost a third the amount. And you could build it all as rank 4s and skip the AD/Catalyst/wards cost on them all except the one rank 7 you would need.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Do you really NEED coalescent wards, or they only a help? Currently you really NEED them for shards and at R7+ stones.
What's the benefit of them on PTS and the sense of preservation wards?
Rank 7 to 8 is 25% right? Way cheaper to use green wards. At most it should take you 12 (3x avg failure rate), which costs a lot less than a coalescent.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Here's a chart I'm working on to show an overview of what's going on with refining.
The process and the numbers are the same with only 2 exceptions between the item/rune enchantments the and weapon/armor enchantments. I'll finish that part of the chart tomorrow. I also do not have a Rank 9 or Rank 10 so those values are incomplete. Hopefully, the catalysts will appear on the AD vendor tomorrow, as promised.
Please note: The RP values are for upgrading from the previous rank only (eg. from rank 7 to rank 8 as opposed from rank 1 to rank 8).
Also, here is the list of RP that each rune/enchantment gives. Note: Matching bonus doubles the value.
Rank
1 = 5 RP (Match bonus - RP = 10 instead of 5)
2 = 15 RP
3 = 45 RP
4 = 135 RP
5 = 540 RP
6 = 2160 RP
7 = 4320 RP
8 = 12,960 RP
9 = ?
10 = ?
Analysis and opinion
The cost savings of the new system is
1) the reduction in the number of coalescent wards needed to make the high(er) end enchantments. Coalescent ward cost is either in AD (avg 100k+) or in the amount time to get free drops.
2) the changing of AD to Gold in the unslotting of enchantments
3) and transferring that cost to the creation of an upgrade which is also less than the original unslot AD cost.
The net effect is that you won't have to pay 9 million AD for a "Perfect" anymore and it's much easier to get a perfect than before. But that is contingent on how hard it is to get the blue and purple catalysts as I've yet to do any quests that drop them. I'm assuming they drop in the Epic Dungeons like the shards.
Inventory space
Inventory can be kept to a minimum if you refine as you collect runes and enchantments as you would only need 1 of each rune/enchantment in inventory that you are ranking up. Ok 2 at the purple levels, but at least they still stack in one inventory slot. But you won't need to keep inventory of less than 4 stacks of anything or multiple stacks of 20 shards.
Coalescents vs Preservation Wards
These wards no longer are needed to preserve your enchantments and runes as the process doesn't eat those up anymore. Instead, these wards save the "catalysts".
And Coalescents also save AD. You still get charged AD when using preservation wards and they save your catalyst material. [Edit]I believe I'm wrong here, but until the tooltip is corrected and I can actually get a catalyst to upgrade and verify this, I'm leaving this in as a reminder to check [end Edit]
The Grind
Racking up RP is what the new grind will be. Getting the match bonus will be the ideal goal. Bonus to the grind will be the random item drops that give RP. So far, I've come across a 100 RP and 500 RP item. Found in skill node and new campaign quest chest.
Do I like the new system?
The deciding factor for me is how easy is it to get the "catalyst" drops. If they are as rare as coalescent ward drops, then this system is worse than the existing one. If they drop like blue gear in epic dungeons, then I love it
Quick clarification: Failing to upgrade an Enchantment or Runestone does not consume the AD value of that upgrade. Catalysts are still consumed. We'll look into the tooltip to make sure that is clearer.
Thank you to everyone providing constructive feedback!
Additional clarification: Refinement Points gained past 100% will carry over to the next Upgrade level. We are working on UI improvements to make that clearer.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
0
dardoveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Are you sure the 34,560 number is right? That would mean it would take 128 rank 4s of the same type to go from rank 7 to 8. Right now assuming zero failure, it takes 256 rank 4s to get to rank 8. Reality of failures actually puts that number closer to 352 if you start using wards at rank 6. That is almost a third the amount. And you could build it all as rank 4s and skip the AD/Catalyst/wards cost on them all except the one rank 7 you would need.
Wait a minute. You lose the AD. Didn't the Dev say you shouldn't be charged AD for failure?
Correct, you are only charged the AD when you succeed. If you failure you lose the catalyst cost (or a preservation ward), but keep your AD. If it is working otherwise right now, then it is a bug.
Here's a chart I'm working on to show an overview of what's going on with refining.
The process and the numbers are the same with only 2 exceptions between the item/rune enchantments the and weapon/armor enchantments. I'll finish that part of the chart tomorrow. I also do not have a Rank 9 or Rank 10 so those values are incomplete. Hopefully, the catalysts will appear on the AD vendor tomorrow, as promised.
Please note: The RP values are for upgrading from the previous rank only (eg. from rank 7 to rank 8 as opposed from rank 1 to rank 8)...
Seems like you have wrong numbers at the first table "%Chance of Succes", it should be vice versa. Good job anyway
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
So I wanted to chime in to talk about a few of the specific issues being brought up.
First, I wanted to say that this is on the Preview shard specifically so that we can get lots of feedback, improve the system, and make sure it's hitting all of our goals. Some players have commented that the current system on Live is "fine" but we disagree - our data shows that many players are not engaging in the current system due to the frustration of using it. If the system was performing well and making everyone happy, we would not have invested all of the time and effort into improving it that we have.
The players are not using your system not because it is broken or badly designed, but because the costs are too high and the wards are pay for items since you cannot reliably get them.
If you really want to make the people engage in this, make the system accessible through the usual MMO grind: kill monsters, the bigger the guy the more rewarding.
I.E. allow coalescents and perservation wards to drop off bosses or something.
Also, needing so many wards for a perfect if you intend to craft it yourself is insane.
Then, everybody will engage with upgrading shards/enchantments.
You have yet to make it more accessible with refining, quite the other way
As far as I see, the real problem with the new system is the spikey AD cost, that don't exist in the today's system. Devs need to know that a little portion of players use the unslot system on live, so, no one pays AD to remove the enchant from the item.
This is the milestone here. If devs really want to implement this new system, and I see good things that will really help the players, they need to be aware of:
1 - Cut a lot the AD cost, other way people will leave the game because it affects directlly pvp ( and pve for people who compete in DPS, heal, etc). Becasue today there is no AD cost at all (in pratice). Please listen devs, please. There are A LOT of AD sinks already in the game, A LOT. It's really hard to farm AD in this game, so the costs you are proposing are out of the line. I'm not a free players, spent $110 already in the game, but there is no way I can spend more money, so I can't buy zen to trade for AD to make such a system viable. Please, listen to us, we don't need more AD sinks, we need now ways of playing the game more easily without AD charges. There are better forms of making money, like creating and selling companion packs (a companion, some AD, some other stuff for X dollars i.e.).
2 - Well, today we can get 24k AD for free refining, so the rest we can make is selling zen or selling items in the AH. Selling zen is for a little portion of the community. Selling things on the AH is dependent to the RGN (drops in the dungeons or ingame), myself I havent drop anything that worth more then 200 AD in the AH, so you can imagine as me, on this rythim I will never be able to enchant my items.
3 - Changes that affect power (like enchants -> pvp/pve) are the factor that most of the players leave f2p games, so please be very careful with this new system, and remeber: Never sell power for money, this pratice make your server empty, as the facts we can see in other games.
I really want to help, sorry if I wrote something not cool, but we need to face the facts to make NW the game we all know it is, and be better and better!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
0
uurbsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 449Bounty Hunter
[...]
2 - Well, today we can get 24k AD for free refining, so the rest we can make is selling zen or selling items in the AH. Selling zen is for a little portion of the community. Selling things on the AH is dependent to the RGN (drops in the dungeons or ingame), myself I havent drop anything that worth more then 200 AD in the AH, so you can imagine as me, on this rythim I will never be able to enchant my items.
tl;dr: If you're talking about the "current fusing system didn't cost any ADs at all", you're completly ignoring the cost of material--be it the enchantments themself, the preservation wards or the coalescent wards.
IMHO, you need to factor in the cost of the wards (yes, the green and the blue ones drop from the 7-day-pray-chest, but even if they drop, they have an Astral Diamond (AD) value--you could sell them, therefore you use that amount of ADs).
As an example, I'm going to use weapon-/armor enchantments, because the price difference is easier to grasp: Right now, if I want to create a perfect enchantment out of shards, I would need 256 shards and 85 blue wards. Just the wards allone have a value of more than 8.5 million ADs. In regards to ward usage in the new system, I would need just 4 wards--equivalent to 400,000 ADs. Therefore it just boils down to the value of the stuff you need to put in to reach the refinement point value four times, plus the value of the 4 power catalysts, plus the value of creating the required enchantment used as catalyst, plus the value of the ADs to actually upgrade the enchantment 4 times.
I'm not able to log in and check those values at the moment, but I guess that it will be a lot less than 8.5 mio ADs!
The players are not using your system not because it is broken or badly designed, but because the costs are too high and the wards are pay for items since you cannot reliably get them.
If you really want to make the people engage in this, make the system accessible through the usual MMO grind: kill monsters, the bigger the guy the more rewarding.
I.E. allow coalescents and perservation wards to drop off bosses or something.
Also, needing so many wards for a perfect if you intend to craft it yourself is insane.
Then, everybody will engage with upgrading shards/enchantments.
You have yet to make it more accessible with refining, quite the other way
This does reduce the amount of wards needed significantly. So much so, demand is going to drop off like crazy and the price will probably drop.
15 Coalescents to make a perfect.
An average of 20.4666666... Green wards to go from rank 4 to rank 10. The key is not upgrading any enchant to use for refining. Simply use the enchant however you get it to throw in for refining. Lower ranks are actually worth more per refining point than higher ones. No enchant greater than rank 4 should be used for refining purposes. Looking at the chart by blureel, the total amount of rank 4s needed to make a rank 10 drops from 4096 (assuming 0 failures) to 1728. That is a significant decrease.
The real question is how much are catalysts going to cost us? That is the real question.
Mindflayer - Exodus
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
0
tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Here's a chart I'm working on to show an overview of what's going on with refining.
The process and the numbers are the same with only 2 exceptions between the item/rune enchantments the and weapon/armor enchantments. I'll finish that part of the chart tomorrow. I also do not have a Rank 9 or Rank 10 so those values are incomplete. Hopefully, the catalysts will appear on the AD vendor tomorrow, as promised.
Rank 9 to rank 10 is 100k AD.
Rank 9 rune gives 77,760(38,880) RP
Rank 10 rune gives 116,640(58,320) RP
Shard gives 4320(2160) RP
Lesser gives 8640(4320) RP
Normal gives 25,920(12,960) RP
Greater gives 77,760(38,880) RP
Perfect gives 116,640(58,320) RP
For a Perfect enchant you need 2 Greaters(one as catalyst) and 2 greater marks of potency.
Hey uurbs, whats up?
I was talking about the additional AD cost, not the cost already present. Let me explain better my point:
Today, we need the wards to garantee the fusion. But we don't need to loose AD to remove enchants from items, its not mandatory.
With the new system, we still need the wards (less, but still needed) + the cost of everu upgrade we need to do. This is an adittional AD cost that we don't need to use in the live system.
This is why I made my post, because there are so many AD sinks, and they are planning to put more. Let's simulate the players experience with it:
- Credit card player: Wow, now I'll be immortal!
- Hardcore gammer: Well, now I need to spend more AD, more farm!
- Regular player: Man, I'm playing till my fingers bleed to get that enchant!
- Casual player: I'm wondering if someday I will have some high rank enchant
After that, let's think about those differences in pvp. Casual players will be one-shotted, regular players will last a little more, but maybe 3-4 shotted. hardcore gamers will be better, but I can see them ragequiting for losing to a credit card kid.
Now in PVE:
- Credit card player: Top DPS always.
- Hardcore gammer: What, he makes more damage then me? How???
- Regular player: Man, I really have to quit my job to be on pair!
- Casual player: I'm feeling like I'm back to lvl 1 :'''''(
This kind of facts make people go away from the game
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
0
uurbsMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 449Bounty Hunter
I was talking about the additional AD cost, not the cost already present. Let me explain better my point:
For any financial calculation, you need to factor in any and all costs, you cannot just ignore part of it--especially if the system changes more than one variables.
I'll do some numbercrunching later (as soon as those catalysts are available) and will post a comparison of real-cost on Live to real-cost on Preview. Maybe that will clarify the system--at least for me
I've never spent any AD on removing enchantment. Ever. I simply didn't slot them till I get good item. Now, I'm forced to waste my gold AND my AD BOTH while using new system. No, just no. Leave the unslotting cost as it is, and I just won't use it as I did before.
Holy **** you are <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
I simply didn't slot them till I get good item.
You think that's good game design? This was the entire problem with armor/weapon enchantments, you couldn't use them before getting the best weapon and best enchantment, otherwise you'd be wasting AD.
NO NO NO! stop right there! Don't go past GO and don't collect your $200.00!
Don't look into the tooltip, don't continue working on this new system. Are you even paying attention to what players are posting? most if not all hate this new method. It's not more enjoyable as you claim in your original post it's quite the opposite. Most see it for what it really is, a new money making system for PW/Cryptic.
1. It costs AD to refine. Time to pull out the wallet and buy zen.
2. You need more inventory space to carry all kinds of rank runes/enchantments and the required catalysts. Queue the bags in zen market.
3. Still need wards to not lose higher end ranks. more zen/AD costs.
Stop it, just stop it. If you're going to charge AD, then we do not need the catalyst and/or wards to refine higher ranking stones.
Come to thank of it, just scrap this refining method altogether and leave the currently working method in place.
It's not broken, so don't "PW/Cryptic fix it!"
"PW/Cryptic fix it!" - 1. to rework a working and/or non-working system in order to make a new method to charge real life money. 2. To try and "fix" something broken or not, and still find a way to further making it worse.
This...
And without the cataclysts the systems would be roughly equal in pricing to the current one(maybe slightly cheaper for greater shard enchants), with the [epic] catalysts which I assume we will receive from high-end bosses, zen market or once a week celestial bag drops... it will be maybe 10-15 times more expensive. I understand it is a free game and you want to receive more revenue, but why not simply introduce more mounts and cosmetic items to the market? I do not think I can bare this game becoming even more pay to win than it is at the moment
0
dardoveMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2013
Feedback: Refinement UI If you go to refine an enchantment that is sitting in a stack, after you hit refine it refines one of the enchantments and then goes on to want to refine a fresh enchantment in that stack as opposed to trying to refine the one you just put refining points in. Most of time, I probably want to keep working on that existing one.
Feedback: Catalyst source If they aren't coming out of chests of goods and barrels from the leadership profession already, I would like for them to be added to their loot table.
i think a lot of people don't really understand how the new system is designed to work and how better it is than the old fuse-four system. there are a few threads in here that explain it pretty well, but then more AHH! feedback hits the thread.
is it possible to do a twitch.tv demonstration of how this works? or a youtube video?
0
khimera906Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 898Arc User
edited November 2013
The only problem right now as far as I can understand without actually playing on the Preview Shard is the Catalyst. Someone said he found one in a skill nod and it's also been said that they are meant to be easy to find. I really like how the new system works, I just hope it won't require some ridiculous amount of AD or even worse, a ridiculous amount of luck.
I hate dancing with Lady Luck. She always steps on my toes.
0
rapticorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,078Arc User
i think a lot of people don't really understand how the new system is designed to work and how better it is than the old fuse-four system. there are a few threads in here that explain it pretty well, but then more AHH! feedback hits the thread.
is it possible to do a twitch.tv demonstration of how this works? or a youtube video?
Hopefully they take this as a lesson learned and when they plan on introducing a major change like this in the future at least they'll provide a little more information, even if it's something like just a quick FAQ, as to how things are supposed to work rather than just throwing it out there and go "Here you go" which leads to speculation and confusion.
Comments
This is the main problem and the main disconnect with the players.
It isn't a "much larger" AD cost if no one pays it. We all ignore unslotting because it's too expensive.
You see it as a large cost for unslotting swapped for a smaller charge for upgrading.
We see it as a zero cost for unslotting (because we don't use it) swapped for an exorbitant cost for higher level enchants.
If cost is prohibitive for slotting, what do you think will happen when you shift that cost to fusing? Yes, slotting is now affordable, but slotting what exactly when no one bothers to upgrade anything.
Yeah good point. It would have to be the diamond cost in this case. Or maybe a percentage of the RP cost.
The current system /is/ simple – doubleclick enchantment, click fuse, done. It's just 3 clicks, it doesn’t get more simple. It’s insta-win or lose, with success chances clearly stated. The new system on Preview is worse in comparison; it has hidden considerations (Is it better to feed it same-stat or it different stats at market prices?), more numbers to learn (how many RP points will this and that give me? Are there differences depending on rank?) more material components / organisational overhead (catalysts) and a less linear/transparent total material cost progression. Unleashed to live, it would lead to endless questions in /zone, “had I known” posts and so on. It is anything but more simple/transparent and would, in total, lead to /less/ participation.
A need for more components / AD costs?
If you plan to drop “sufficient” catalysts from skill nodes and bosses anyway, they’re plain redundant from a game-mechanical viewpoint – the same skill nodes already drop our runestones/enchantments. You could cut the catalysts out and just adjust the total cost of runes. Also naming them catalysts is misleading – in chemistry, catalysts never get used up – in your system they do, both on success and failure. Not to mention that since the end of ME3, catalysts are bad, baad – but I digress.
AD cost: The current system allows you to make runes without any AD at all – overwrite the old rune and done, putting the fictional total material cost of the new rune to sub-125%. As the unslotting AD cost was unacceptably high, it was almost always skipped in favour of overwriting. Thus, it’s not legit to compare a new unavoidable AD cost to something that almost never came into effect. The new system just ramps up the cost, lowering participation yet again. Additionally, you reward exploiters who made high level enchants while stones were duplicatable months ago. Those loaded alts are laughing with mad glee right now as they see their goods value skyrocket, while new players and casuals get shafted.
It’s quite debatable if an AD sink of this magnitude is even needed. Companion upgrade costs are horrendously high, campaigns come with AD fees attached and the Auction house acts as a constant drain, all the while AD influx from refining is capped at 24k. With constant high costs, the less AD you get for your zen, the less attractive it is to sell it. Even the much-needed Waukeen remonetization of the economy only impacted prices by +40 (and even less if you factor Lillend sale out). My stance: Draining too many AD from circulation hurts zen sales and thus the game.
Space considerations:
Right now you have 5 useful enchantments/runestones (player ones and eldritch); if you were to hoard what you loot/get from leadership and adventuring (R2-R4) that’s 15 slots being taken up. For efficiency reasons, I won’t go past rank 8 on my enchantments (I play casually like 2-3 hours on most days, under the old system, this allows me to make about one single R8 a month), so I wouldn’t benefit from upgrading my already in-slot runes. Instead, I’d have to keep in-progress runes in inventory (5 again as same-stat feeding is most effective) plus those new marks of potency or whatever (4) in order to either sell or to gear up an alt. So yes, I might go from 15 to 9 slots, freeing up 6 slots. That doesn’t nearly compensate for all of the negatives above. In my case even less as I was nice enough to buy a Bag of Holding already.
I’m sorry, but in conclusion this mess of a refinement system is, at best, a case of “The road to hell is paved with good intentions.”
If you use just shards to refine with, you would only need 4 coalescents. If it follows the same pattern as enchantments where the lesser enchantment is equal in in ratio in refinement points to its value to create the greater enchantment (ie 3 rank 1s to make a rank 2 means rank ones are worth 5 RP and rank 2s are worth 15 RP), then it is always better to use the lower enchantment because it cuts the extra AD, catalyst, and ward cost from upgrading each enchantment out of the equation, and reduces it to just the one enchantment you are upgrading.
4 Shards -> 1 Lesser = 1 Coalescent
1 Lesser + 8 shards -> Normal = 1 Coalescent
1 Normal + 16 shards -> Greater = 1 Coalescent
1 Greater + 32 Shards -> Perfect = 1 Coalescent
Total 60 Shards and 4 Coalescent to make a perfect. Way cheaper with those materials. Everything hinges on the cost and availability of the Catalysts. Add 56 shards to the cost if you use non-alike shards. But heck, those elven battle shards are way cheaper than vorpal ones.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
For weapon/armor enchantments you also need to use a weapon/armor enchantment of the same type and rank as of the part of the catalyst cost. For example, to upgrade a lesser vorpal enchantment to a normal vorpal enchantment, you need to use a greater mark of potency and another lesser vorpal enchantment as the catalyst. The same goes for upgrading rank 7-9 enchantments/runestones.
As you can see here, a lesser vorpal enchantment is required as part of the catalyst cost.
Also the refining point cost isn't equal across all ranks. At rank 1-4, it only takes 2 enchantment of the same type and quality to max out the refining points. A rank one enchantment needs 20 refining points and a rank one enchantment of the same type gives 10 points (any other type provides 5). At rank 4-6, it requires 3 enchantments of the same type and quality to make out the refining points. A rank one enchantment requires 810 points to upgrade and a matching enchantment gives 270. Then at rank 7-9 it requires 4 enchantments of the same type and quality to make out the refining points. A rank 7 enchantment (or lesser weapon/armor enchantment). A rank 7 enchantment needs 34,560 refining points to move up to rank 8 and an enchantment of the same type and rank gives 8640 refining points.
So it would take 15 Coalescents still. Still a lot less than 85. I'll have to go back on test when I get the chance to check ratios for enchantment usuage.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
What's the benefit of them on PTS and the sense of preservation wards?
Which is the number I quoted in my post you corrected....
Coal wards still preform the same function they do under this system as they do under the old fusing system.
Are you sure the 34,560 number is right? That would mean it would take 128 rank 4s of the same type to go from rank 7 to 8. Right now assuming zero failure, it takes 256 rank 4s to get to rank 8. Reality of failures actually puts that number closer to 352 if you start using wards at rank 6. That is almost a third the amount. And you could build it all as rank 4s and skip the AD/Catalyst/wards cost on them all except the one rank 7 you would need.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Rank 7 to 8 is 25% right? Way cheaper to use green wards. At most it should take you 12 (3x avg failure rate), which costs a lot less than a coalescent.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
The process and the numbers are the same with only 2 exceptions between the item/rune enchantments the and weapon/armor enchantments. I'll finish that part of the chart tomorrow. I also do not have a Rank 9 or Rank 10 so those values are incomplete. Hopefully, the catalysts will appear on the AD vendor tomorrow, as promised.
Please note: The RP values are for upgrading from the previous rank only (eg. from rank 7 to rank 8 as opposed from rank 1 to rank 8).
Also, here is the list of RP that each rune/enchantment gives. Note: Matching bonus doubles the value.
Rank
1 = 5 RP (Match bonus - RP = 10 instead of 5)
2 = 15 RP
3 = 45 RP
4 = 135 RP
5 = 540 RP
6 = 2160 RP
7 = 4320 RP
8 = 12,960 RP
9 = ?
10 = ?
Analysis and opinion
The cost savings of the new system is
1) the reduction in the number of coalescent wards needed to make the high(er) end enchantments. Coalescent ward cost is either in AD (avg 100k+) or in the amount time to get free drops.
2) the changing of AD to Gold in the unslotting of enchantments
3) and transferring that cost to the creation of an upgrade which is also less than the original unslot AD cost.
The net effect is that you won't have to pay 9 million AD for a "Perfect" anymore and it's much easier to get a perfect than before. But that is contingent on how hard it is to get the blue and purple catalysts as I've yet to do any quests that drop them. I'm assuming they drop in the Epic Dungeons like the shards.
Inventory space
Inventory can be kept to a minimum if you refine as you collect runes and enchantments as you would only need 1 of each rune/enchantment in inventory that you are ranking up. Ok 2 at the purple levels, but at least they still stack in one inventory slot. But you won't need to keep inventory of less than 4 stacks of anything or multiple stacks of 20 shards.
Coalescents vs Preservation Wards
These wards no longer are needed to preserve your enchantments and runes as the process doesn't eat those up anymore. Instead, these wards save the "catalysts".
And Coalescents also save AD. You still get charged AD when using preservation wards and they save your catalyst material. [Edit]I believe I'm wrong here, but until the tooltip is corrected and I can actually get a catalyst to upgrade and verify this, I'm leaving this in as a reminder to check
The Grind
Racking up RP is what the new grind will be. Getting the match bonus will be the ideal goal. Bonus to the grind will be the random item drops that give RP. So far, I've come across a 100 RP and 500 RP item. Found in skill node and new campaign quest chest.
Do I like the new system?
The deciding factor for me is how easy is it to get the "catalyst" drops. If they are as rare as coalescent ward drops, then this system is worse than the existing one. If they drop like blue gear in epic dungeons, then I love it
Post #31
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Yes, I am sure.
Correct, you are only charged the AD when you succeed. If you failure you lose the catalyst cost (or a preservation ward), but keep your AD. If it is working otherwise right now, then it is a bug.
Seems like you have wrong numbers at the first table "%Chance of Succes", it should be vice versa. Good job anyway
The players are not using your system not because it is broken or badly designed, but because the costs are too high and the wards are pay for items since you cannot reliably get them.
If you really want to make the people engage in this, make the system accessible through the usual MMO grind: kill monsters, the bigger the guy the more rewarding.
I.E. allow coalescents and perservation wards to drop off bosses or something.
Also, needing so many wards for a perfect if you intend to craft it yourself is insane.
Then, everybody will engage with upgrading shards/enchantments.
You have yet to make it more accessible with refining, quite the other way
As far as I see, the real problem with the new system is the spikey AD cost, that don't exist in the today's system. Devs need to know that a little portion of players use the unslot system on live, so, no one pays AD to remove the enchant from the item.
This is the milestone here. If devs really want to implement this new system, and I see good things that will really help the players, they need to be aware of:
1 - Cut a lot the AD cost, other way people will leave the game because it affects directlly pvp ( and pve for people who compete in DPS, heal, etc). Becasue today there is no AD cost at all (in pratice). Please listen devs, please. There are A LOT of AD sinks already in the game, A LOT. It's really hard to farm AD in this game, so the costs you are proposing are out of the line. I'm not a free players, spent $110 already in the game, but there is no way I can spend more money, so I can't buy zen to trade for AD to make such a system viable. Please, listen to us, we don't need more AD sinks, we need now ways of playing the game more easily without AD charges. There are better forms of making money, like creating and selling companion packs (a companion, some AD, some other stuff for X dollars i.e.).
2 - Well, today we can get 24k AD for free refining, so the rest we can make is selling zen or selling items in the AH. Selling zen is for a little portion of the community. Selling things on the AH is dependent to the RGN (drops in the dungeons or ingame), myself I havent drop anything that worth more then 200 AD in the AH, so you can imagine as me, on this rythim I will never be able to enchant my items.
3 - Changes that affect power (like enchants -> pvp/pve) are the factor that most of the players leave f2p games, so please be very careful with this new system, and remeber: Never sell power for money, this pratice make your server empty, as the facts we can see in other games.
I really want to help, sorry if I wrote something not cool, but we need to face the facts to make NW the game we all know it is, and be better and better!
tl;dr: If you're talking about the "current fusing system didn't cost any ADs at all", you're completly ignoring the cost of material--be it the enchantments themself, the preservation wards or the coalescent wards.
IMHO, you need to factor in the cost of the wards (yes, the green and the blue ones drop from the 7-day-pray-chest, but even if they drop, they have an Astral Diamond (AD) value--you could sell them, therefore you use that amount of ADs).
As an example, I'm going to use weapon-/armor enchantments, because the price difference is easier to grasp: Right now, if I want to create a perfect enchantment out of shards, I would need 256 shards and 85 blue wards. Just the wards allone have a value of more than 8.5 million ADs. In regards to ward usage in the new system, I would need just 4 wards--equivalent to 400,000 ADs. Therefore it just boils down to the value of the stuff you need to put in to reach the refinement point value four times, plus the value of the 4 power catalysts, plus the value of creating the required enchantment used as catalyst, plus the value of the ADs to actually upgrade the enchantment 4 times.
I'm not able to log in and check those values at the moment, but I guess that it will be a lot less than 8.5 mio ADs!
This does reduce the amount of wards needed significantly. So much so, demand is going to drop off like crazy and the price will probably drop.
15 Coalescents to make a perfect.
An average of 20.4666666... Green wards to go from rank 4 to rank 10. The key is not upgrading any enchant to use for refining. Simply use the enchant however you get it to throw in for refining. Lower ranks are actually worth more per refining point than higher ones. No enchant greater than rank 4 should be used for refining purposes. Looking at the chart by blureel, the total amount of rank 4s needed to make a rank 10 drops from 4096 (assuming 0 failures) to 1728. That is a significant decrease.
The real question is how much are catalysts going to cost us? That is the real question.
Daria - Dwarf Sentinel GWF (mistaken for Halfling a lot)
Karia (aka "The Pug") - Human Combat HR
Kayd - Human Conqueror GF - Retired
Rank 9 to rank 10 is 100k AD.
Rank 9 rune gives 77,760(38,880) RP
Rank 10 rune gives 116,640(58,320) RP
Shard gives 4320(2160) RP
Lesser gives 8640(4320) RP
Normal gives 25,920(12,960) RP
Greater gives 77,760(38,880) RP
Perfect gives 116,640(58,320) RP
For a Perfect enchant you need 2 Greaters(one as catalyst) and 2 greater marks of potency.
I was talking about the additional AD cost, not the cost already present. Let me explain better my point:
Today, we need the wards to garantee the fusion. But we don't need to loose AD to remove enchants from items, its not mandatory.
With the new system, we still need the wards (less, but still needed) + the cost of everu upgrade we need to do. This is an adittional AD cost that we don't need to use in the live system.
This is why I made my post, because there are so many AD sinks, and they are planning to put more. Let's simulate the players experience with it:
- Credit card player: Wow, now I'll be immortal!
- Hardcore gammer: Well, now I need to spend more AD, more farm!
- Regular player: Man, I'm playing till my fingers bleed to get that enchant!
- Casual player: I'm wondering if someday I will have some high rank enchant
After that, let's think about those differences in pvp. Casual players will be one-shotted, regular players will last a little more, but maybe 3-4 shotted. hardcore gamers will be better, but I can see them ragequiting for losing to a credit card kid.
Now in PVE:
- Credit card player: Top DPS always.
- Hardcore gammer: What, he makes more damage then me? How???
- Regular player: Man, I really have to quit my job to be on pair!
- Casual player: I'm feeling like I'm back to lvl 1 :'''''(
This kind of facts make people go away from the game
I'll do some numbercrunching later (as soon as those catalysts are available) and will post a comparison of real-cost on Live to real-cost on Preview. Maybe that will clarify the system--at least for me
You think that's good game design? This was the entire problem with armor/weapon enchantments, you couldn't use them before getting the best weapon and best enchantment, otherwise you'd be wasting AD.
And without the cataclysts the systems would be roughly equal in pricing to the current one(maybe slightly cheaper for greater shard enchants), with the [epic] catalysts which I assume we will receive from high-end bosses, zen market or once a week celestial bag drops... it will be maybe 10-15 times more expensive. I understand it is a free game and you want to receive more revenue, but why not simply introduce more mounts and cosmetic items to the market? I do not think I can bare this game becoming even more pay to win than it is at the moment
If you go to refine an enchantment that is sitting in a stack, after you hit refine it refines one of the enchantments and then goes on to want to refine a fresh enchantment in that stack as opposed to trying to refine the one you just put refining points in. Most of time, I probably want to keep working on that existing one.
Feedback: Catalyst source
If they aren't coming out of chests of goods and barrels from the leadership profession already, I would like for them to be added to their loot table.
Oops. I guess I really was too tired when I made it lol. Thanks for the catch! Updating the jpg soon.
is it possible to do a twitch.tv demonstration of how this works? or a youtube video?
Hopefully they take this as a lesson learned and when they plan on introducing a major change like this in the future at least they'll provide a little more information, even if it's something like just a quick FAQ, as to how things are supposed to work rather than just throwing it out there and go "Here you go" which leads to speculation and confusion.