I just don’t get it!
What’s your problem with those that use “exploit”? play the game the way you enjoy it!
Has anyone here played pen&paper Role Playing Game?
Some people fight for the thrill of battle, others for riches ect!
In real pen and paper when you have a quest it doesn’t matter the how, but if you made it! If you can hide and snipe someone do it! If you are a paladin and want to destroy all the evil in the world straightforward, do it! If you are a rogue and want to reach the commander hidden, do it!
For those that like hard fights, go to CN And put on the greens and fight the beholder!
Why do you care how someone else plays his game?
You think it is unfair to exploit?
If I pay for AD is it unfair?
If I got carried from a 60lvl friend to lvl up is unfair?
If I geared up before or after DD chest= BoP does it matter?
I just don’t get it!
What’s your problem with those that use “exploit”? play the game the way you enjoy it!
Has anyone here played pen&paper Role Playing Game?
Some people fight for the thrill of battle, others for riches ect!
In real pen and paper when you have a quest it doesn’t matter the how, but if you made it! If you can hide and snipe someone do it! If you are a paladin and want to destroy all the evil in the world straightforward, do it! If you are a rogue and want to reach the commander hidden, do it!
For those that like hard fights, go to CN And put on the greens and fight the beholder!
Why do you care how someone else plays his game?
You think it is unfair to exploit?
If I pay for AD is it unfair?
If I got carried from a 60lvl friend to lvl up is unfair?
If I geared up before or after DD chest= BoP does it matter?
PS sorry for my English…
It matters because it's against the spirit of the game, and against the rules.
In PnP you weren't able to jump off a ledge to travel across the map to get to the next respawn, die or do /stuck to get up to the campfire and then high five your buddies.
Its not that it's wrong to exploit - its that the game devs dont want us to and are slowly fixing the exploits.
It matters how someone else plays the game because unless they're full soloing the dungeon they're in, they're forcing their bull**** onto everyone else.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
/Channel_Join NW_Legit_Community to run Dungeons without the exploits
New stuffing!
Most of MMORPG's:
To complete dungeon A you need any gear, from vendor, mobs or whatever.
To complete dungeon B you need gear from dungeon A.
To complete dungeon C you need gear from dungeon B etc.
In Neverwinter:
To complete dungeon A you need gear from dungeon A.
To complete dungeon B you need gear from dungeon B.
To complete dungeon C you need to spend 10000$ on perfects, stones, enchants etc. + gear from dungeon C of course.
Discuss.
inb4 "I've done CN run at 9200 GS blue items noobs lololo"
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
New stuffing!
Most of MMORPG's:
To complete dungeon A you need any gear, from vendor, mobs or whatever.
To complete dungeon B you need gear from dungeon A.
To complete dungeon C you need gear from dungeon B etc.
In Neverwinter:
To complete dungeon A you need gear from dungeon A.
To complete dungeon B you need gear from dungeon B.
To complete dungeon C you need to spend 10000$ on perfects, stones, enchants etc. + gear from dungeon C of course.
Discuss.
inb4 "I've done CN run at 9200 GS blue items noobs lololo"
Yes and no. I think with PVP gear you're good to go for T1 and you can really get GG gear right away. I think coinfarm isn't as elitist so everybody can get in and grind.
But I agree that this adds to the list of design flaws I was talking about. Even though you are able to complete T1 dungeons without the T1 set, it's a pain and the effort (probably more than the 45 minutes) doesn't match the reward. Once you are geared and able to complete dungeons in 20-30 minutes the imbalanced looting system doesn't hurt that much, but while gearing up it's just horrible.
I try to get to 11-12k GS through the AH most of the time. Otherwise I'm having sincere trouble getting into groups.
I don't see that as a glitch or exploit. I can be punted off the edge therefore it makes sense that the mobs can also be thrown off. NWO's dungeons just seem very inconsistent with regards to when throwing is possible and recommended and when it is considered exploitative.
The fight was obviously designed to have mobs pushed off.
Yes and no. I think with PVP gear you're good to go for T1 and you can really get GG gear right away.
But without at least T1 gear you will suffer in PvP even harder then in PvE. You can't do PvP without gear from PvP/PvE and you can't do PvE without gear from PvP/PvE. This is vicious circle. But you may always pay some cash and get anything you want from AH. That's how this is going. Pay cash or suck.
And yes, party of 7k GS players can complete Gragmire/Cloak Tower pretty easily (even tho 5700 is required). But try to complete Mad dragon with blues+boots and arms from GC and CT. The answer is always AH.
M6 almost drains your soul given how boring it is. (c) joocycuzzzzzz
I just don’t get it!
What’s your problem with those that use “exploit”? play the game the way you enjoy it!
Has anyone here played pen&paper Role Playing Game?
Some people fight for the thrill of battle, others for riches ect!
In real pen and paper when you have a quest it doesn’t matter the how, but if you made it! If you can hide and snipe someone do it! If you are a paladin and want to destroy all the evil in the world straightforward, do it! If you are a rogue and want to reach the commander hidden, do it!
For those that like hard fights, go to CN And put on the greens and fight the beholder!
Why do you care how someone else plays his game?
You think it is unfair to exploit?
If I pay for AD is it unfair?
If I got carried from a 60lvl friend to lvl up is unfair?
If I geared up before or after DD chest= BoP does it matter?
PS sorry for my English…
Sory to say, but your arguments are really, really bad - you compare something (a rogue that hides to reach the boss) with exploits. If you make comparisons to pen and paper make useful ones. Like I roll a 1 and just pretend it is a 10. Why? Just because I can and that is the way I want to play it - not matter what the other players in the round are thinking. Whenever I roll a die I just make any number I that suits me. THAT would be an exploit and THAT is comparable to players standing somewhere on a rock out of the programmed radius of a mob so he won't move to you. If you betray the mechanics then this is cheating. It is like rolling a die and just ignore the numbers.
Cheaters in this game have become a real pain - if they would all stay out of pug queues I would not even care. If you want to play pen and paper with your friends and everyone just picks a number that he wants ignoring the dices then do it - I don't care. But I do care I 3-4 people want to play a match normally and one moron ruins the whole experience by cheating and forcing others to do the same. Because if you tell them "I won't use this exploit" then it is not like "Ok, lets to it normall, I am fine with that, too" - no then those people rage and throw words at you why you think you are something better than them.
New stuffing!
Most of MMORPG's:
To complete dungeon A you need any gear, from vendor, mobs or whatever.
To complete dungeon B you need gear from dungeon A.
To complete dungeon C you need gear from dungeon B etc.
In Neverwinter:
To complete dungeon A you need gear from dungeon A.
To complete dungeon B you need gear from dungeon B.
To complete dungeon C you need to spend 10000$ on perfects, stones, enchants etc. + gear from dungeon C of course.
Discuss.
inb4 "I've done CN run at 9200 GS blue items noobs lololo"
People tend to forget that those people who have +12k GS had to made "dungeon A" with blues, Cryptic didnt sent us a mail with all epics to run them and in the beta stage there wasnt much epics to buy in AH if u did spend real money to get AD (not my case)
Im starting to get tired to see whinners speaking about how hard dungeons are, dont get me wrong but u REALLY NEED TO LEARN TO PLAY THE GAME.... dont come here and cry at foruns.... Sry but it rly annoys me.
Im arround since beta stage, im on rank 8, full geared and greater enchs..... and NOOOO i didnt spent a dime in this game, YES i can do any T2/CN without any exploit or skip mobs with my group EASLY. But i do make dungeons as fast as i can, i bump mobs of the edges and i run to next campfires... Why because is much faster, when u guys start to have all ur gear, when u want to start gather some AD to buy better ench, when u start to run the same 3-4 T2 everyday to get a crappy chance of a T2 BoE drop from bosses to be rolled by 5 players then u will understand why people skip content and do fast runs.
I understand not everyone play the game the way me and many others play it, i do 2 -3 T2's + CN almost every day to gather enough AD for perfects (well not T2 anymore duo the lower BoE drop chance), i do not kill every single mob in those dungeons, i skip adds, i bump adds, do i consider this an exploit.... HELL NO. If i dont do that it will take me +1h doing some T2 even with a good team and all geared up and with the current loot system it doesnt worth it.... If it doesnt worth to make dungeons what the hell im doing playing this game then ????
Casual players need to understand people play diferent like hardcore players must understand casual players, but everything they migth add for harcore players will one day eventually be playble for casual players aswell.
It matters because it's against the spirit of the game, and against the rules.
In PnP you weren't able to jump off a ledge to travel across the map to get to the next respawn, die or do /stuck to get up to the campfire and then high five your buddies.
Its not that it's wrong to exploit - its that the game devs dont want us to and are slowly fixing the exploits.
It matters how someone else plays the game because unless they're full soloing the dungeon they're in, they're forcing their bull**** onto everyone else.
The vast majority of players want to complete dungeons as quickly as possible. It is YOU who are forcing your bull**** onto everyone else. The self proclaimed "Legit" players talk about how much better and more elite and more pro they are b/c they kill every trash mob and don't utilize anything, even if it's sitting right in front of them, to make the run easier. Which would be fine if they just kept to themselves and ran with like minded people, but no they call everyone who doesn't do it their way a cheater/hacker/exploiter etc. so that they can again feel more pro and elite.
This is all just sad b/c PvE is absolutely brainless in this game. It never changes, it never gets harder, everything is telegraphed beyond belief. There is nothing so hard that I have to take a shortcut, the mindless unchanging grind however makes me very much want to speed things up as much as possible. I would venture to say about 80%+ of the game's population, that you look down upon as pathetic worms b/c we don't do things the way you super elite amazing players do, do dungeons the way I do them. I don't cheat, hack, use 3rd party programs, or do anything against the ToS or EULA, however self absorbed players on the forums like to tell me I'm doing those things.
Get over yourselves. PvP is the only challenge in this game. You have to react to a thinking opponent who will also react to you, and there is 10 times the strategy involved even in the 2 small maps we have now. To say you are the best of the best elite players and refuse to even do PvP is just... sad.
Btw this isn't all directed at you Manathayria, I didn't feel like quoting 3+ people
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
[..] I think coinfarm isn't as elitist so everybody can get in and grind.
[...]
And that's where exploits come in. Grinding. After 10 runs in Fardelver (=sessions) you have ~40 coins, and need another 300, which equals a lot of luck getting into a group, have the (at least) hour of time available (at the time GG is open, in addition to that) for the runs and hope not to disconnect. So, you start to make fast runs, because you just grind, not playing for playing. You have a different target than the atmesphere etc.
I can understand people who expl, I do not say I like it. But after 10 normal runs, I saw how much faster I could get my GG gear. Instead of months it was down to weeks.
This is all just sad b/c PvE is absolutely brainless in this game. It never changes, it never gets harder, everything is telegraphed beyond belief.
That's the main problem lots of MMOs have - a lot of people don't play to play the game but to get some vanity gear to show everyone that their pittyful lives are worth something because in a game they can acquire end gear items while in real life they are just mediocre personalities.
But yet some people want to actually play the game. As I mentioned before, I don't care if people like you get a premade and run 100 CNs in one hour by skipping any mob if you feel better afterwards when you have 1 million ADs and best gear in game. Just do it. Fine. If that makes you happy, then that's the way you should do it. I only care if people like you queue up for pugs and then ruin the game for anyone else in that pug with their "this game is brainless" mentality and forcing (or even worse teaching) new players to play the game like they do and start to use exploits and run through the dungeon while others actually want to fight and play with their characters.
That's the main problem lots of MMOs have - a lot of people don't play to play the game but to get some vanity gear to show everyone that their pittyful lives are worth something because in a game they can acquire end gear items while in real life they are just mediocre personalities.
But yet some people want to actually play the game. As I mentioned before, I don't care if people like you get a premade and run 100 CNs in one hour by skipping any mob if you feel better afterwards when you have 1 million ADs and best gear in game. Just do it. Fine. If that makes you happy, then that's the way you should do it. I only care if people like you queue up for pugs and then ruin the game for anyone else in that pug with their "this game is brainless" mentality and forcing (or even worse teaching) new players to play the game like they do and start to use exploits and run through the dungeon while others actually want to fight and play with their characters.
Thank you. That's all I'm looking for is the live and let live mentality. I don't care if you want to clear everything, you can play the game however you want and I hope you enjoy it, I really do! Sorry, I didn't mean brainless exactly, just that because it is unchanging it becomes more like a muscle memory thing than a thought out strategy every time.
I am all for everyone doing what they enjoy in the game, that's why you play a video game. What I don't like are the people that say they are the best, everyone who doesn't do it their way is trash, and call everyone else cheater/hacker/unskilled etc.
I am glad there are guilds dedicated to running dungeons without any shortcuts b/c a lot of people like to play that way. I am not happy when they come on the forums and call everyone else garbage for not being like them.
So again, thank you for the 'I'll do it my way and you do it yours' mentality, I appreciate it.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
0
aurorusborealusMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 10Arc User
And that's where exploits come in. Grinding. After 10 runs in Fardelver (=sessions) you have ~40 coins, and need another 300, which equals a lot of luck getting into a group, have the (at least) hour of time available (at the time GG is open, in addition to that) for the runs and hope not to disconnect. So, you start to make fast runs, because you just grind, not playing for playing. You have a different target than the atmesphere etc.
I can understand people who expl, I do not say I like it. But after 10 normal runs, I saw how much faster I could get my GG gear. Instead of months it was down to weeks.
I have played since Beta every day. I will tell you, for a fact, that the exploits rarely save time and usually waste time. Let me give you examples. In Gaunt t1, the groups is usually a pug. Someone did not know the run and got lost... time wasted waiting for that person, showing that person the run, etc. The mobs can be cleared in 6 or 7 minutes and the end-boss killed in 4 or 5. You can get 2 and sometimes 3 runs in without any exploits, runs, etc. This same principle used to apply in Karrundax: showing the new guy the runs and where to die, and there is always 1 new guy, takes more time than clearing the mobs. The only 2 dungeons where exploits and skipping mobs consistently saves time is Frozen Heart and Castle Never: because you cannot destroy the crystals now until the first boss "dies" in Frozen Heart. Used to be, you could climb the cliffs during the fight and destroy the crystals so you did not have to "kill" the first boss in FH 3 times.
I run Malabog with 2 groups, one tries to skip all the catapult mobs and exploits the first boss (over my objections). In the second group, we clear everything and kill the first boss legitimately. i have timed both runs. The exploits rarely work as intended. They pull mobs running to first boss and fight them anyway. The guy who dies pulling first boss to door usually brings adds with him when he returns, etc... . Both groups complete the dungeon in about the same amount of time... with the group that does not exploit usually being faster, because we almost never wipe on final boss. The first group wipes usually once or twice on final boss (b-c it is a less skilled group).
It has long been my contention that the exploits, skipping mobs, etc is not about saving time. It never did. It was always and has always been about 2 things: 1) a crutch for weaker players 2) satisfaction at the feeling of having "got one over," "cheated," or having done something sly or wrong, a sort of perverse satisfaction. It is not now and has never been about "saving time," and anyone who says it is is just plain wrong.
I have played since Beta every day. I will tell you, for a fact, that the exploits rarely save time and usually waste time. Let me give you examples. In Gaunt t1, the groups is usually a pug. Someone did not know the run and got lost... time wasted waiting for that person, showing that person the run, etc. The mobs can be cleared in 6 or 7 minutes and the end-boss killed in 4 or 5. You can get 2 and sometimes 3 runs in without any exploits, runs, etc. This same principle used to apply in Karrundax: showing the new guy the runs and where to die, and there is always 1 new guy, takes more time than clearing the mobs. The only 2 dungeons where exploits and skipping mobs consistently saves time is Frozen Heart and Castle Never: because you cannot destroy the crystals now until the first boss "dies" in Frozen Heart. Used to be, you could climb the cliffs during the fight and destroy the crystals so you did not have to "kill" the first boss in FH 3 times.
I run Malabog with 2 groups, one tries to skip all the catapult mobs and exploits the first boss (over my objections). In the second group, we clear everything and kill the first boss legitimately. i have timed both runs. The exploits rarely work as intended. They pull mobs running to first boss and fight them anyway. The guy who dies pulling first boss to door usually brings adds with him when he returns, etc... . Both groups complete the dungeon in about the same amount of time... with the group that does not exploit usually being faster, because we almost never wipe on final boss. The first group wipes usually once or twice on final boss (b-c it is a less skilled group).
It has long been my contention that the exploits, skipping mobs, etc is not about saving time. It never did. It was always and has always been about 2 things: 1) a crutch for weaker players 2) satisfaction at the feeling of having "got one over," "cheated," or having done something sly or wrong, a sort of perverse satisfaction. It is not now and has never been about "saving time," and anyone who says it is is just plain wrong.
But if you're entire group is experienced, already knows the content and already knows the shortcuts they can cut run times in half in some cases.
I used to be able to do 6-8 Fardelver runs in the half hour easy, and there are many others. It's not about my groups lack of ability to complete the content, it's our lack of desire to spend double the time doing it.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
0
mctankypantsMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited October 2013
I exploit because...
Oh wait, I don't exploit. Is it considered an exploit to sneak around mobs as a whole group? Or are we talking straight up having a TR run the entirety of the dungeon and then the group spawns on that campsite?
I have to say that being able to squeeze in 2-3 runs during DD's is enticing. Maybe they should lengthen DD's to 2 hours or make it more frequent.
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shadows1313Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 68Arc User
edited October 2013
Wow , the amount of exploiters that try so hard to prove that exploits they do arent exploits at all and its all legit and HAMSTER is astonishing. The truth is that u really suck at this game and everything it involves thus exploiting is the only way u survive in it.
Pls stop trying to make exploits look legit and stop ruining the game for ppl that dont play like u and dont try to exploit every aspect of this game. If ur only purpose in this game is to get as much HAMSTER and sell it to get rich thn u play for nothing. Go make ur own forums of exploit HAMSTER and stop crying about everything being too hard/long in this game. Its only hard/long if ur unskilled/lazy etc.
It has long been my contention that the exploits, skipping mobs, etc is not about saving time. It never did. It was always and has always been about 2 things: 1) a crutch for weaker players 2) satisfaction at the feeling of having "got one over," "cheated," or having done something sly or wrong, a sort of perverse satisfaction. It is not now and has never been about "saving time," and anyone who says it is is just plain wrong.
Whether one group is faster than another makes no difference on why someone does something. People skip trash because they BELIEVE it's faster. Whether it's actually faster or not is irrelevant.
As for being "a crutch" there is no skill required to clearing trash. Frankly, it typically requires more skill to skip the trash than to clear it.
0
seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Oh wait, I don't exploit. Is it considered an exploit to sneak around mobs as a whole group? Or are we talking straight up having a TR run the entirety of the dungeon and then the group spawns on that campsite?
I have to say that being able to squeeze in 2-3 runs during DD's is enticing. Maybe they should lengthen DD's to 2 hours or make it more frequent.
We can squeeze in 2-3 even 4 DDs without cheating and doing legit runs.
Wow , the amount of exploiters that try so hard to prove that exploits they do arent exploits at all and its all legit and HAMSTER is astonishing. The truth is that u really suck at this game and everything it involves thus exploiting is the only way u survive in it.
Pls stop trying to make exploits look legit and stop ruining the game for ppl that dont play like u and dont try to exploit every aspect of this game. If ur only purpose in this game is to get as much HAMSTER and sell it to get rich thn u play for nothing. Go make ur own forums of exploit HAMSTER and stop crying about everything being too hard/long in this game. Its only hard/long if ur unskilled/lazy etc.
This sums it all up. I have yet to meet an exploiter that is a good player in PVE. I guess now that we have the server merge, we can bring a so called "cheater" in on a real clear and watch how bad they are.
Whether one group is faster than another makes no difference on why someone does something. People skip trash because they BELIEVE it's faster. Whether it's actually faster or not is irrelevant.
As for being "a crutch" there is no skill required to clearing trash. Frankly, it typically requires more skill to skip the trash than to clear it.
Some exploits are faster such as the gauntlegrym t1 run. I used to manage 6 runs with people that knew what to do. Some are slow but make things easier such at MC and Karrundax (even though some times it's just been easier to kill the first one legitimately). Some are both such as spider last boss which can be very hard without a decently geared group and has a much harder last boss when compared to the rest of the dungeon.
I agree with the above that some people are silly for trying to justify exploiting as if they should be in the game and that they have the right to exploit. Yet I disagree that they do it coz they suck. They don't (all). They just have some different goals and reasons to play.
0
seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Some exploits are faster such as the gauntlegrym t1 run. I used to manage 6 runs with people that knew what to do. Some are slow but make things easier such at MC and Karrundax (even though some times it's just been easier to kill the first one legitimately). Some are both such as spider last boss which can be very hard without a decently geared group and has a much harder last boss when compared to the rest of the dungeon.
I agree with the above that some people are silly for trying to justify exploiting as if they should be in the game and that they have the right to exploit. Yet I disagree that they do it coz they suck. They don't (all). They just have some different goals and reasons to play.
You just said that bosses are too hard in the first paragraph and in the 2nd paragraph you said that you disagree that they do it cause they suck. If you think that the spider boss is too hard that you must glitch it, then you aren't a very good player. That boss can be killed in 3 minutes with no exploits with the dps that we pour on. How long does it take to "glitch the boss". I know that cheating would require me to take a death, so that's already a wasted kit and a waste of my time.
Cheating and exploiting are only justified by bad players. That's all it comes down to.
I know players that are very geared and skilled and they exploit.
If you think you are correct, I challenge you to bring PROOF for your claim that exploiters do so because they lack skills.
Proof... not empty words.
They cannot be good players, because it does make zero sense. They exploited, have the best gear now and can feel proud of going into pvp with premades against people who do not exploit. According to your "logic", this is the incarnation of a skilled gamer?
Does the scum of the mmo genre deserve a better treatment?
Exploiting every possible aspect of the game is not a good thing
and exploiters aren't good people, either.
Cheers.
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
They cannot be good players, because it does make zero sense. They exploited, have the best gear now and can be proud of going into pvp with premades against people who do not exploit. Acccording to your "logic", this is the incarnation of a skilled gamer?
I highly doubt it.
My god
Not all bosses are exploitable. You can see the true skill when you get to the part where you need to do it legit, such as MC, SP&Karru these days etc.
It makes perfect sense.
You exploit, or do it legit, whatever it;s most time efficient. Exploiting Syndrith is more time consuming than legit kill. "Running" to 1st boss is less time consuming than trash clearing though.
Not all bosses are exploitable. You can see the true skill when you get to the part where you need to do it legit, such as MC, SP&Karru these days etc.
It makes perfect sense.
You exploit, or do it legit, whatever it;s most time efficient. Exploiting Syndrith is more time consuming than legit kill. "Running" to 1st boss is less time consuming than trash clearing though.
And so on...
Stealing is ok? You are pretty delusional, just like the other kewl kids.
I'm moving on, have fun.
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Stealing is ok? You are pretty delusional, just like the other kewl kids.
I'm moving on, have fun.
Another recourse to personal insult.
Now.
Who stolen what?!? What did exploiters steal, from whom and from where exactly?!? What goods are missing?
Also.
This is a Role Playing Game. It even has a Rogue class, which are commonly known for trickery, pickpocketing, backstabbing... I'm not a thieving rogue but some are, and their class is best role played as a shady character that has 0 honor and would do anything in their power to get by.
Who stolen what?!? What did exploiters steal, from whom and from where exactly?!? What goods are missing?
Also.
This is a Role Playing Game. It even has a Rogue class, which are commonly known for trickery, pickpocketing, backstabbing... I'm not a thieving rogue but some are, and their class is best role played as a shady character that has 0 honor and would do anything in their power to get by.
Not anybody wants to be a paladin mate.
I would have expected you knew what i was referring to.
Let's assume one is able to finish 2 runs legitimately during a dd event and 6 by using exploits.
Every single drop from the 4 runs after the ones possible without exploitation, are in fact stolen goods.
I’ve not played a long list of games to compare NWO to. I have spent 2-2.5 years in DDO however and I can tell you that never in that time (over several true reincarnated life’s) did I feel…’walk two feet…kill mobs…walk two feet…kill mobs….walk two feet…look, kill more mobs’.
That being said I don’t think it’s just the number of mobs or even size of the mobs but more about that’s all there is. Dungeons offer no other challenges, no adventure in between the mob killing. In DDO you had quest where you had to climb ladders, jump pipes to get to that lever, swimming and/or having to jump in water vents that sent you swishing to the next area, you had to figure out how to get across that electric grid or how to get to that door waaaay up high. Even traps in NWO are the same-o same-o in every dungeon. The actual sitting down and thinking about and putting together quests that will excite a player stopped at one design in NWO. From level 1, day 1 its walk two feet…kill a mob…walk two feet…kill a mob.
This is no reason to exploit. What is considered an exploit varies. Sadly it’s been my observation that most blatant exploits are done because it’s all about time vs. gain, game or fun is not part of the equation. It takes time to teach a new person the ins and outs of a dungeon. And it usually takes a few runs before they start feeling comfortable. Few who have the best knowledge are willing to invest the time and energy to teaching new lvl 60s. I am sure there are those who can walk into any dungeon and master it all on their own without a single tip from the very first step and with minimum GS because they are just awesome. But not everyone is awesome or The Best of the Best who expect everyone else to be as awesome as they are.
I’m not awesome, I am learning, each run getting better, feeling better about my performance and I like to have fun while I learn. If me standing near a pillar I can dodge behind to keep my HAMSTER alive while taking shots at a big bad critter in a sea of red and so many add’s I can’t even see the TR is called a exploit I would say whaaaaat? But running past/around 3/4 the dungeon IMO is not doing the dungeon and for me would be a FAIL. That’s money…money…money…gear…gear…gear only. Don’t get me wrong, I want a nice reward for the hour…two hours…three hours I just spent in the dungeon. I don’t expect or want it to be easy. Guess what I am trying to say is for me the journey is just as important as the destination. And in some cases…better.
BTW…the guild I am a part of is a no exploit guild that can and I hear has banned members for exploiting. They are the best guild I have been a part of in my still young gaming life. We have lots of successful runs. But heck…we have our share of wipes especially when we take fresh lvl 60s into T2s the first time to help them get geared and experience. Just last night we took a brand new lvl 60 into SP, the main goal was to take it slow, explain, educate. Actual completion would be nice but the teaching and learning is the most important objective. I think it was one of my most fun runs. It was much more relaxed, we were so silly with each other and did tons of laughing instead of being all serious.
-chuckles remembering the GF doing a super hero impersonation over the floating spiral thing saying he was superman flying while being shirtless and dressed in only his pants.-
You just said that bosses are too hard in the first paragraph and in the 2nd paragraph you said that you disagree that they do it cause they suck. If you think that the spider boss is too hard that you must glitch it, then you aren't a very good player. That boss can be killed in 3 minutes with no exploits with the dps that we pour on. How long does it take to "glitch the boss". I know that cheating would require me to take a death, so that's already a wasted kit and a waste of my time.
Cheating and exploiting are only justified by bad players. That's all it comes down to.
So I'm guessing that this 3 mins was done with a full group of tier 1 (or t2 pvp) geared people? It'd take about that to get the boss to suicide for spider, can be quicker though. People who have their gear already probably generally don't bother doing spider. Spider has a relatively easy dungeon, and then the last boss is much much harder. It doesn't really matter if its theoretically possible. The boss clearly doesn't live up to the difficulty of the rest of the dungeon and isn't an easy feat for those that don't already have the gear for it. Hence exploiting is the attractive option. Pugging in particular can be hard to get a decent group. Exploiting gives them a guarantee that they get a chance of getting their gear without finding out at the very end that they may or may not be able to do it. As for Karrundax, the last boss is relatively easy, whilst the 2nd boss in particular has an insane about of adds, again is challenging for those that don't have t2 gear already let alone those that are geared. 20 silver to ensure you get DD loot is not a lot of gold. Especially when it's equivalent to 3 major health pots, so can actually be cheaper to exploit.
When you refer to me disagreeing with it being because they suck, you forget to include that not all exploits are boss exploits. As mentioned the gauntlegrym one could run past all of the mobs. Do they do it because they suck and can't clear simple mobs? No of course not. People may be able to take down a boss legitimately. It doesn't mean that they won't resort to exploits if they find it easier or a way of ensuring that there's no wipe. It also doesn't mean that they suck if they do wipe. If you think that then you will think that most of the player base sucks then... Personally I'm fine with exploits. For MC I thought it was fair to exploit the last boss when it was ridiculously bugged. Now I want to do it legitimatly, although I've not really tried often to get into a group that wants to. What's the incentive? A possible blue drop which was quicker to do another 2/3? A pair of useless gloves from the disappointing (imo) new sets? Meh. My time would have been better spent avoiding MC altogether, I could've earnt a lot more AD.
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
edited October 2013
Just as an FYI, NW_Legit_Community, a custom chat channel, has been created for those individuals that do not want to use cheats/glitches/exploits, and want to stick to teaming w/ other players who share the same sentiment:
Come join us, and perhaps together we can improve our skills and cooperation, so as to bring back the enjoyment in playing here!
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Comments
What’s your problem with those that use “exploit”? play the game the way you enjoy it!
Has anyone here played pen&paper Role Playing Game?
Some people fight for the thrill of battle, others for riches ect!
In real pen and paper when you have a quest it doesn’t matter the how, but if you made it! If you can hide and snipe someone do it! If you are a paladin and want to destroy all the evil in the world straightforward, do it! If you are a rogue and want to reach the commander hidden, do it!
For those that like hard fights, go to CN And put on the greens and fight the beholder!
Why do you care how someone else plays his game?
You think it is unfair to exploit?
If I pay for AD is it unfair?
If I got carried from a 60lvl friend to lvl up is unfair?
If I geared up before or after DD chest= BoP does it matter?
PS sorry for my English…
It matters because it's against the spirit of the game, and against the rules.
In PnP you weren't able to jump off a ledge to travel across the map to get to the next respawn, die or do /stuck to get up to the campfire and then high five your buddies.
Its not that it's wrong to exploit - its that the game devs dont want us to and are slowly fixing the exploits.
It matters how someone else plays the game because unless they're full soloing the dungeon they're in, they're forcing their bull**** onto everyone else.
Most of MMORPG's:
To complete dungeon A you need any gear, from vendor, mobs or whatever.
To complete dungeon B you need gear from dungeon A.
To complete dungeon C you need gear from dungeon B etc.
In Neverwinter:
To complete dungeon A you need gear from dungeon A.
To complete dungeon B you need gear from dungeon B.
To complete dungeon C you need to spend 10000$ on perfects, stones, enchants etc. + gear from dungeon C of course.
Discuss.
inb4 "I've done CN run at 9200 GS blue items noobs lololo"
Yes and no. I think with PVP gear you're good to go for T1 and you can really get GG gear right away. I think coinfarm isn't as elitist so everybody can get in and grind.
But I agree that this adds to the list of design flaws I was talking about. Even though you are able to complete T1 dungeons without the T1 set, it's a pain and the effort (probably more than the 45 minutes) doesn't match the reward. Once you are geared and able to complete dungeons in 20-30 minutes the imbalanced looting system doesn't hurt that much, but while gearing up it's just horrible.
I try to get to 11-12k GS through the AH most of the time. Otherwise I'm having sincere trouble getting into groups.
The fight was obviously designed to have mobs pushed off.
But without at least T1 gear you will suffer in PvP even harder then in PvE. You can't do PvP without gear from PvP/PvE and you can't do PvE without gear from PvP/PvE. This is vicious circle. But you may always pay some cash and get anything you want from AH. That's how this is going. Pay cash or suck.
And yes, party of 7k GS players can complete Gragmire/Cloak Tower pretty easily (even tho 5700 is required). But try to complete Mad dragon with blues+boots and arms from GC and CT. The answer is always AH.
Sory to say, but your arguments are really, really bad - you compare something (a rogue that hides to reach the boss) with exploits. If you make comparisons to pen and paper make useful ones. Like I roll a 1 and just pretend it is a 10. Why? Just because I can and that is the way I want to play it - not matter what the other players in the round are thinking. Whenever I roll a die I just make any number I that suits me. THAT would be an exploit and THAT is comparable to players standing somewhere on a rock out of the programmed radius of a mob so he won't move to you. If you betray the mechanics then this is cheating. It is like rolling a die and just ignore the numbers.
Cheaters in this game have become a real pain - if they would all stay out of pug queues I would not even care. If you want to play pen and paper with your friends and everyone just picks a number that he wants ignoring the dices then do it - I don't care. But I do care I 3-4 people want to play a match normally and one moron ruins the whole experience by cheating and forcing others to do the same. Because if you tell them "I won't use this exploit" then it is not like "Ok, lets to it normall, I am fine with that, too" - no then those people rage and throw words at you why you think you are something better than them.
People tend to forget that those people who have +12k GS had to made "dungeon A" with blues, Cryptic didnt sent us a mail with all epics to run them and in the beta stage there wasnt much epics to buy in AH if u did spend real money to get AD (not my case)
Im starting to get tired to see whinners speaking about how hard dungeons are, dont get me wrong but u REALLY NEED TO LEARN TO PLAY THE GAME.... dont come here and cry at foruns.... Sry but it rly annoys me.
Im arround since beta stage, im on rank 8, full geared and greater enchs..... and NOOOO i didnt spent a dime in this game, YES i can do any T2/CN without any exploit or skip mobs with my group EASLY. But i do make dungeons as fast as i can, i bump mobs of the edges and i run to next campfires... Why because is much faster, when u guys start to have all ur gear, when u want to start gather some AD to buy better ench, when u start to run the same 3-4 T2 everyday to get a crappy chance of a T2 BoE drop from bosses to be rolled by 5 players then u will understand why people skip content and do fast runs.
I understand not everyone play the game the way me and many others play it, i do 2 -3 T2's + CN almost every day to gather enough AD for perfects (well not T2 anymore duo the lower BoE drop chance), i do not kill every single mob in those dungeons, i skip adds, i bump adds, do i consider this an exploit.... HELL NO. If i dont do that it will take me +1h doing some T2 even with a good team and all geared up and with the current loot system it doesnt worth it.... If it doesnt worth to make dungeons what the hell im doing playing this game then ????
Casual players need to understand people play diferent like hardcore players must understand casual players, but everything they migth add for harcore players will one day eventually be playble for casual players aswell.
The vast majority of players want to complete dungeons as quickly as possible. It is YOU who are forcing your bull**** onto everyone else. The self proclaimed "Legit" players talk about how much better and more elite and more pro they are b/c they kill every trash mob and don't utilize anything, even if it's sitting right in front of them, to make the run easier. Which would be fine if they just kept to themselves and ran with like minded people, but no they call everyone who doesn't do it their way a cheater/hacker/exploiter etc. so that they can again feel more pro and elite.
This is all just sad b/c PvE is absolutely brainless in this game. It never changes, it never gets harder, everything is telegraphed beyond belief. There is nothing so hard that I have to take a shortcut, the mindless unchanging grind however makes me very much want to speed things up as much as possible. I would venture to say about 80%+ of the game's population, that you look down upon as pathetic worms b/c we don't do things the way you super elite amazing players do, do dungeons the way I do them. I don't cheat, hack, use 3rd party programs, or do anything against the ToS or EULA, however self absorbed players on the forums like to tell me I'm doing those things.
Get over yourselves. PvP is the only challenge in this game. You have to react to a thinking opponent who will also react to you, and there is 10 times the strategy involved even in the 2 small maps we have now. To say you are the best of the best elite players and refuse to even do PvP is just... sad.
Btw this isn't all directed at you Manathayria, I didn't feel like quoting 3+ people
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
And that's where exploits come in. Grinding. After 10 runs in Fardelver (=sessions) you have ~40 coins, and need another 300, which equals a lot of luck getting into a group, have the (at least) hour of time available (at the time GG is open, in addition to that) for the runs and hope not to disconnect. So, you start to make fast runs, because you just grind, not playing for playing. You have a different target than the atmesphere etc.
I can understand people who expl, I do not say I like it. But after 10 normal runs, I saw how much faster I could get my GG gear. Instead of months it was down to weeks.
That's the main problem lots of MMOs have - a lot of people don't play to play the game but to get some vanity gear to show everyone that their pittyful lives are worth something because in a game they can acquire end gear items while in real life they are just mediocre personalities.
But yet some people want to actually play the game. As I mentioned before, I don't care if people like you get a premade and run 100 CNs in one hour by skipping any mob if you feel better afterwards when you have 1 million ADs and best gear in game. Just do it. Fine. If that makes you happy, then that's the way you should do it. I only care if people like you queue up for pugs and then ruin the game for anyone else in that pug with their "this game is brainless" mentality and forcing (or even worse teaching) new players to play the game like they do and start to use exploits and run through the dungeon while others actually want to fight and play with their characters.
Thank you. That's all I'm looking for is the live and let live mentality. I don't care if you want to clear everything, you can play the game however you want and I hope you enjoy it, I really do! Sorry, I didn't mean brainless exactly, just that because it is unchanging it becomes more like a muscle memory thing than a thought out strategy every time.
I am all for everyone doing what they enjoy in the game, that's why you play a video game. What I don't like are the people that say they are the best, everyone who doesn't do it their way is trash, and call everyone else cheater/hacker/unskilled etc.
I am glad there are guilds dedicated to running dungeons without any shortcuts b/c a lot of people like to play that way. I am not happy when they come on the forums and call everyone else garbage for not being like them.
So again, thank you for the 'I'll do it my way and you do it yours' mentality, I appreciate it.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
I have played since Beta every day. I will tell you, for a fact, that the exploits rarely save time and usually waste time. Let me give you examples. In Gaunt t1, the groups is usually a pug. Someone did not know the run and got lost... time wasted waiting for that person, showing that person the run, etc. The mobs can be cleared in 6 or 7 minutes and the end-boss killed in 4 or 5. You can get 2 and sometimes 3 runs in without any exploits, runs, etc. This same principle used to apply in Karrundax: showing the new guy the runs and where to die, and there is always 1 new guy, takes more time than clearing the mobs. The only 2 dungeons where exploits and skipping mobs consistently saves time is Frozen Heart and Castle Never: because you cannot destroy the crystals now until the first boss "dies" in Frozen Heart. Used to be, you could climb the cliffs during the fight and destroy the crystals so you did not have to "kill" the first boss in FH 3 times.
I run Malabog with 2 groups, one tries to skip all the catapult mobs and exploits the first boss (over my objections). In the second group, we clear everything and kill the first boss legitimately. i have timed both runs. The exploits rarely work as intended. They pull mobs running to first boss and fight them anyway. The guy who dies pulling first boss to door usually brings adds with him when he returns, etc... . Both groups complete the dungeon in about the same amount of time... with the group that does not exploit usually being faster, because we almost never wipe on final boss. The first group wipes usually once or twice on final boss (b-c it is a less skilled group).
It has long been my contention that the exploits, skipping mobs, etc is not about saving time. It never did. It was always and has always been about 2 things: 1) a crutch for weaker players 2) satisfaction at the feeling of having "got one over," "cheated," or having done something sly or wrong, a sort of perverse satisfaction. It is not now and has never been about "saving time," and anyone who says it is is just plain wrong.
But if you're entire group is experienced, already knows the content and already knows the shortcuts they can cut run times in half in some cases.
I used to be able to do 6-8 Fardelver runs in the half hour easy, and there are many others. It's not about my groups lack of ability to complete the content, it's our lack of desire to spend double the time doing it.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Oh wait, I don't exploit. Is it considered an exploit to sneak around mobs as a whole group? Or are we talking straight up having a TR run the entirety of the dungeon and then the group spawns on that campsite?
I have to say that being able to squeeze in 2-3 runs during DD's is enticing. Maybe they should lengthen DD's to 2 hours or make it more frequent.
Pls stop trying to make exploits look legit and stop ruining the game for ppl that dont play like u and dont try to exploit every aspect of this game. If ur only purpose in this game is to get as much HAMSTER and sell it to get rich thn u play for nothing. Go make ur own forums of exploit HAMSTER and stop crying about everything being too hard/long in this game. Its only hard/long if ur unskilled/lazy etc.
Whether one group is faster than another makes no difference on why someone does something. People skip trash because they BELIEVE it's faster. Whether it's actually faster or not is irrelevant.
As for being "a crutch" there is no skill required to clearing trash. Frankly, it typically requires more skill to skip the trash than to clear it.
We can squeeze in 2-3 even 4 DDs without cheating and doing legit runs.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
This sums it all up. I have yet to meet an exploiter that is a good player in PVE. I guess now that we have the server merge, we can bring a so called "cheater" in on a real clear and watch how bad they are.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
Some exploits are faster such as the gauntlegrym t1 run. I used to manage 6 runs with people that knew what to do. Some are slow but make things easier such at MC and Karrundax (even though some times it's just been easier to kill the first one legitimately). Some are both such as spider last boss which can be very hard without a decently geared group and has a much harder last boss when compared to the rest of the dungeon.
I agree with the above that some people are silly for trying to justify exploiting as if they should be in the game and that they have the right to exploit. Yet I disagree that they do it coz they suck. They don't (all). They just have some different goals and reasons to play.
You just said that bosses are too hard in the first paragraph and in the 2nd paragraph you said that you disagree that they do it cause they suck. If you think that the spider boss is too hard that you must glitch it, then you aren't a very good player. That boss can be killed in 3 minutes with no exploits with the dps that we pour on. How long does it take to "glitch the boss". I know that cheating would require me to take a death, so that's already a wasted kit and a waste of my time.
Cheating and exploiting are only justified by bad players. That's all it comes down to.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
Again with insults?
I know players that are very geared and skilled and they exploit.
If you think you are correct, I challenge you to bring PROOF for your claim that exploiters do so because they lack skills.
Proof... not empty words.
They cannot be good players, because it does make zero sense. They exploited, have the best gear now and can feel proud of going into pvp with premades against people who do not exploit. According to your "logic", this is the incarnation of a skilled gamer?
I highly doubt it.
Oh and...
Does the scum of the mmo genre deserve a better treatment?
Exploiting every possible aspect of the game is not a good thing
and exploiters aren't good people, either.
Cheers.
My god
Not all bosses are exploitable. You can see the true skill when you get to the part where you need to do it legit, such as MC, SP&Karru these days etc.
It makes perfect sense.
You exploit, or do it legit, whatever it;s most time efficient. Exploiting Syndrith is more time consuming than legit kill. "Running" to 1st boss is less time consuming than trash clearing though.
And so on...
Stealing is ok? You are pretty delusional, just like the other kewl kids.
I'm moving on, have fun.
Another recourse to personal insult.
Now.
Who stolen what?!? What did exploiters steal, from whom and from where exactly?!? What goods are missing?
Also.
This is a Role Playing Game. It even has a Rogue class, which are commonly known for trickery, pickpocketing, backstabbing... I'm not a thieving rogue but some are, and their class is best role played as a shady character that has 0 honor and would do anything in their power to get by.
Not anybody wants to be a paladin mate.
I would have expected you knew what i was referring to.
Let's assume one is able to finish 2 runs legitimately during a dd event and 6 by using exploits.
Every single drop from the 4 runs after the ones possible without exploitation, are in fact stolen goods.
That being said I don’t think it’s just the number of mobs or even size of the mobs but more about that’s all there is. Dungeons offer no other challenges, no adventure in between the mob killing. In DDO you had quest where you had to climb ladders, jump pipes to get to that lever, swimming and/or having to jump in water vents that sent you swishing to the next area, you had to figure out how to get across that electric grid or how to get to that door waaaay up high. Even traps in NWO are the same-o same-o in every dungeon. The actual sitting down and thinking about and putting together quests that will excite a player stopped at one design in NWO. From level 1, day 1 its walk two feet…kill a mob…walk two feet…kill a mob.
This is no reason to exploit. What is considered an exploit varies. Sadly it’s been my observation that most blatant exploits are done because it’s all about time vs. gain, game or fun is not part of the equation. It takes time to teach a new person the ins and outs of a dungeon. And it usually takes a few runs before they start feeling comfortable. Few who have the best knowledge are willing to invest the time and energy to teaching new lvl 60s. I am sure there are those who can walk into any dungeon and master it all on their own without a single tip from the very first step and with minimum GS because they are just awesome. But not everyone is awesome or The Best of the Best who expect everyone else to be as awesome as they are.
I’m not awesome, I am learning, each run getting better, feeling better about my performance and I like to have fun while I learn. If me standing near a pillar I can dodge behind to keep my HAMSTER alive while taking shots at a big bad critter in a sea of red and so many add’s I can’t even see the TR is called a exploit I would say whaaaaat? But running past/around 3/4 the dungeon IMO is not doing the dungeon and for me would be a FAIL. That’s money…money…money…gear…gear…gear only. Don’t get me wrong, I want a nice reward for the hour…two hours…three hours I just spent in the dungeon. I don’t expect or want it to be easy. Guess what I am trying to say is for me the journey is just as important as the destination. And in some cases…better.
BTW…the guild I am a part of is a no exploit guild that can and I hear has banned members for exploiting. They are the best guild I have been a part of in my still young gaming life. We have lots of successful runs. But heck…we have our share of wipes especially when we take fresh lvl 60s into T2s the first time to help them get geared and experience. Just last night we took a brand new lvl 60 into SP, the main goal was to take it slow, explain, educate. Actual completion would be nice but the teaching and learning is the most important objective. I think it was one of my most fun runs. It was much more relaxed, we were so silly with each other and did tons of laughing instead of being all serious.
-chuckles remembering the GF doing a super hero impersonation over the floating spiral thing saying he was superman flying while being shirtless and dressed in only his pants.-
So I'm guessing that this 3 mins was done with a full group of tier 1 (or t2 pvp) geared people? It'd take about that to get the boss to suicide for spider, can be quicker though. People who have their gear already probably generally don't bother doing spider. Spider has a relatively easy dungeon, and then the last boss is much much harder. It doesn't really matter if its theoretically possible. The boss clearly doesn't live up to the difficulty of the rest of the dungeon and isn't an easy feat for those that don't already have the gear for it. Hence exploiting is the attractive option. Pugging in particular can be hard to get a decent group. Exploiting gives them a guarantee that they get a chance of getting their gear without finding out at the very end that they may or may not be able to do it. As for Karrundax, the last boss is relatively easy, whilst the 2nd boss in particular has an insane about of adds, again is challenging for those that don't have t2 gear already let alone those that are geared. 20 silver to ensure you get DD loot is not a lot of gold. Especially when it's equivalent to 3 major health pots, so can actually be cheaper to exploit.
When you refer to me disagreeing with it being because they suck, you forget to include that not all exploits are boss exploits. As mentioned the gauntlegrym one could run past all of the mobs. Do they do it because they suck and can't clear simple mobs? No of course not. People may be able to take down a boss legitimately. It doesn't mean that they won't resort to exploits if they find it easier or a way of ensuring that there's no wipe. It also doesn't mean that they suck if they do wipe. If you think that then you will think that most of the player base sucks then... Personally I'm fine with exploits. For MC I thought it was fair to exploit the last boss when it was ridiculously bugged. Now I want to do it legitimatly, although I've not really tried often to get into a group that wants to. What's the incentive? A possible blue drop which was quicker to do another 2/3? A pair of useless gloves from the disappointing (imo) new sets? Meh. My time would have been better spent avoiding MC altogether, I could've earnt a lot more AD.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?503791-New-channel-created-NW_Legit_Community
Come join us, and perhaps together we can improve our skills and cooperation, so as to bring back the enjoyment in playing here!
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
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