the reason people say the dungeon's are too hard is because they have spent their time bypassing all the trash mobs that actually teach you how to kill the bosses and play your characters. There are so many different tactics to each dungeon that those that exploit just miss the point, and use excuses like there is too many trash mobs to justify their laziness. GS dont mean anything in this game, you can have a 13k TR who is awful at his class because all he ever does is permastealth past mobs and glitch bosses.
work at your class, work on clearing the dungeons the right way, and you will actually have fun.. if you are any good at your class you can clear most trash just as fast as the idiots bypassing them.. you wont have any deaths and you will save gold on kits. God forbid you actually spend the time PROGRESSING through the content!
Using that as justification to exploit is a cop-out mister 37yo... so says the 40yo SR.Systems Engineer, with an average work week of 50 to 70 hours. My advice is to actually play a casual quick fix game!
And if you've never played a grind MMO... then sir this is not the game for you...
You talk as though the mechanics are sound. It's not a question of the difficulty, but a question of something so simple that they keep doing which is adding a plethora of adds to situations that would be better managed if there were actual tactics in play.
I've grinded my way through other MMORPGs. In NW it can be very difficult to get into the position to start grinding things as we're pigeon-holed down the road that leads to instances, or Gauntlgrym.
The system requires you to a) Find a group of players that will help you over the initial curve - or attempt things on your own, to which, b) You encounter a large majority that wishes to exploit to save time/get loots because they are finding it that hard to find a solid group, along with a chunk of players who do not wish to exploit. It all comes down to the choice of the player and whether or not they are feeling as though they are getting anywhere in the game. The casual player will always exist, as will the hardcore player.
Some can't get into the fray and put themselves in a position to pursue content. The biggest problem with dungeons (in my opinion) are the steep requirements and the lack of team orientation. Yes there are guilds out there that will help you, but with the three shards that has been a big problem. Hopefully this merge adds more diversity to the dungeon pool and allows for more available progression.
I play a lot, 8-10+ hours a day most days of the week as I work from home. I'm on quite a bit, and getting groups together on my shard is still hell for me lately. I go with what I get these days.
The exploits are there and still there for one major reason. If they just fixed the exploits and not the boring grind for not much of a reward. More people would quit the game.
Why do people exploit? I have some theorys.
Your answer to yourself was "because they hate dungeons" If you hate the dungeons so much, my suggestion to you is do not go in them.
Need gear? Need your precious loot? Buy it in AH or with Zen or do dailys. There is easier ways to get purples in this game then dungeons. PvP for example. Pray to the gods to get FREE diamonds and spend them to get what you need. Is that to hard to spend currency you get free and very easy?
Bless Cryptic for being generous. How do you repay them? Complain...derp. The game is practically free except for the energy you use, the rent you pay at your house, and your cable fee... Well also the food and water/koolaid you have to consume to survive the horror of farming dungeons. Which any of those has nothing to do with Cryptic except they might care a bit about you....(maybe)
Thank you for this Cryptic and some players I am sure will donate appropriately having faith in your game and your company. Like myself.... You are never forced to spend a single dime ingame. I still do not see why people complain about not getting what they want, when they want and they better do it asap. Blaming it on the grind mechanic or the "time is worth money" arguement. Get a job...period.
People are trying to think of ways to get what the need or want with hardly any effort at all. That may be how evolution works to advance human kind... But I am not really one to want to see a futre of a bunch of fat slobs that pig out all day on pixel items to sell or whatever to pay thier rent in mom's basement. Imagine a long time ago when people actually had to work hard for food and a place to live eh? derp. As soon as I gotz to level 60, I contributed and bought some Zen. They deserve it.
As far as I go I dislike cheaters / exploiters / farmers gold sellers etc... Most of these people are not qualified or fit for normal labour in the real world so they need to find a way to eat. Even if it is $10 a day. That is just one theory of mine. Cheat to eat.
I think Cryptic made a AWESOME game, yes there is bugs. But to exploit these bugs and not report them is gonna ruin the game in the long run... and the bugs will never get fixed that way. I love the stance Cryptic has that targets farmers. Keep up the good work.
I leveled to 60 doing quests, which normally I get sick of doing in other games. But I found that the quest line gave alot of exp and was interesting. I still do quests at 60 through the campaign dailys. For the most part I would like the boons and progress further for access into other new areas like the dungeon there.
Gratz Cryptic! ... I feel you made a awesome game. The dungeons are fine the way they are. If anything make them longer and harder 8) But not impossible. When I find a dungeon that is very hard, all it does is challenges me to go back and finish it and get better at it, to improve my skills.
I have this guy in my guild that likes to exploit these bugs and seems to wanna teach people to skip to the end boss get the loot, rinse and repeat. What should I do with him? I am being patient with him and trying to understand why he does this? Maybe he needs to eat? Dunno... If I participate will I get banned? lol.
The potential for Cryptic to make millions on millions and more profit is very possible imo. They set up a very nice game, best I have played in a long time. Good luck. and Thank You for letting me play your game free! YAY!
P.S. PLEASE do not cater to the players that want everything easy. We need a good challenge to seperate the wimps and the HEROS of NEVERWINTER!
Then to PvP and kill some noobs :mad: ....Also where do you submit suggestions?
This post took me 1/2 hour and it was well worth it to sincerely express my gratitude to Cryptic for allowing me to participate in their great game. Thank You again.
Why do people exploit? I have some theorys.
Your answer to yourself was "because they hate dungeons" If you hate the dungeons so much, my suggestion to you is do not go in them.
Need gear? Need your precious loot? Buy it in AH or with Zen or do dailys. There is easier ways to get purples in this game then dungeons. PvP for example. Pray to the gods to get FREE diamonds and spend them to get what you need. Is that to hard to spend currency you get free and very easy?
This game is based around gear - it's the only step towards progression if one wishes to progress.
So your solution is for everybody to just fork over real money or do dailies for aeons?
*cough* There is only three other ways to get purples in this game. The first being standard PvP, the second being Gauntlgrym, an extension of that. The third being through Sharandar which is T1 equivalent gear outside of MC. Who is interested in simply acquiring T1 and then calling it quits?
Bless them for being so generous? The game may be free, but it's based entirely around dungeons and the limited PvP that's available. Without a viable form of progressing down these routes or attaining variety then what would be the point in playing? A minority of players are doing CN/MC, much more than people think. There's a reason why 75% of players have the standard horse mount with a gear score between 9-10k.
I'm tired of people bathing in some sort of arrogance relating to purported skill. It takes skill to play your class well, but with regards to progression and enjoying the game and getting further it comes purely down to whether you were one of the early folk who got their T2 armor and now progress daily, or whether you spend real cash on the game to get further - otherwise you are a free player who may find it difficult to progress because you're at the bottom of the food chain with inflated AH prices and strict LFG requirements.
So then people say, well you're a F2P player, don't whine, just enjoy what you have. It's silly and insulting in ways, acting as though people should be fine because they can simply play the game.
You lost me there sorry! I disagree. I do have experience on dealing with people that think everyone should be geared up or quit the game. those people seem to be just AH junkies and rip off artists.
Gear means not much and will be the TRUE waste of time as they just add new gear to the game as the game moves on.
If Cryptic plans to add a expansion pack...say for lvl 60 - 90. Your gear is useless and even the company wasted time making all that level 60 <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
The idea of level 60 forever in a >level based game< is nuts. Gear is nothing. Fun, enjoyment and value of entertainment is everything. If you are stuck on gear I feel sorry for you l33t kids. Sure gear may be a factor but is by no means a sign of a skilled player. Wake up.
The shard wars are finally over. PEACE.
I made a tank to avoid long ques knowing full well there will be tons of dps junkies out there. Plus I like to help people gear up in dungeons. Not an issue as I do not just think myself and then "attempt" to help others by telling them get geared or get out and if you do not like it everyone will leave"
I will continue to put good gear in AH for the cheapest price possible and I will continue to help others in dungeons. If I ruin a gold farmers job in the process.. I do not care because they are here to ruin the game.
Also gear is not the only way to progress after 60. As I see it you can do the dailys to collect "boons" to improve stats on your character. If you get to 60 get fully geared and ignore these boons, your gimped. Not even to mention trade skills... I waited til 60 to even start any trade skills because I could not afford it gold wise. Now I am only still at level 5 Leadership and Level 4 Alchemy. I suspect there will be other ways to progress as well in the near futre. Good luck farming gear all day to advance to your next level of farming more gear.
You lost me there sorry! I disagree. I do have experience on dealing with people that think everyone should be geared up or quit the game. those people seem to be just AH junkies and rip off artists.
Gear means not much and will be the TRUE waste of time as they just add new gear to the game as the game moves on.
If Cryptic plans to add a expansion pack...say for lvl 60 - 90. Your gear is useless and even the company wasted time making all that level 60 <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
The idea of level 60 forever in a >level based game< is nuts. Gear is nothing. Fun, enjoyment and value of entertainment is everything. If you are stuck on gear I feel sorry for you l33t kids. Sure gear may be a factor but is by no means a sign of a skilled player. Wake up.
I didn't say that gear is a sure sign of a skilled player. I said that it takes a skilled player to play their class well. I have fun playing this game, but I play it to progress because that's kind of the point. I'm not a gear <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> who wishes to be the best of the best or a "l33t kid", I just enjoy the opportunity to explore regions of the game that are available, many of which are gear dependent.
It seems you like to judge and generalize about people, calling people AH junkies and such.
I am deeply relieved that the shards are merging for there will be much more variety for players.
Saying that it's because dungeons are badly designed, or they don't want to kill adds is trying to excuse the behavior, which is incorrect. There is no "valid" excuse for cheating - people just try to rationalize why *they* feel cheating is ok...
if have you played games like Grand theft auto series, it teaches you that cheating in everything is the fastest way to get what you want in life. that's why our new generation kids thinks that cheating is good even if it's wrong.
1) Many players are casual computer gamers. Its not their #1 hobby, its just something easy to fit in around the other demands of life and have some fun. These people play MMOs because MMOs allow you to hang out with other people enjoying the same things as you and that helps make it more fun.
To quote a conversation at the start of a DD yesterday;
P1: I don't have very long.
P2: Define "very long"
P1: Until my wife wakes up.
This means they have limited time, 4+ hours on 1 dungeon is a big ask.
2) Connection issues. Not everyone lives in the US with sub-100ms connections.
Consider this math;
Average reaction time 0.25s
US User
Signal from Server to User 0.05s
Return signal to Server 0.05s
Total time for a typical click 0.35s with user reaction time the biggest factor.
Vs
Asia/Pacific User
Signal from Server to user 0.4s (not a mistake)
Return Signal to Server 0.4s
Total time for typical click 1.05s with signal travel time the biggest factor.
For many players outside the US this means that the mob can spawn and kill them before their click to dodge has even reached the server.
This makes solutions that are not dependant on ability to respond quickly desirable.
3) Finding exploits is like solving a puzzle.
Some players just like to find them and there is a certain fun in that challenge. In part its tied to a desire to "go off the beaten path" and learn the limits of the game, in some ways its playing the meta-game not just the game in others its about finding the "path less travelled". In short there is a bunch of reasons people enjoy doing this.
Why use exploits?
Well there are 2 reasons to run a dungeon; firstly you can be "playing the game" and secondly you can be "getting the gear".
When "playing the game" exploits are undesirable, you want to beat everything and "win".
When "getting the gear" the how is less important than the result. The windows of opportunity are small and you may have limited opportunity to use those windows.
In our guild the emphasis is on having fun playing the game, we run dungeons with and without exploits with success with only factors like "available time" really determining the path we take through the dungeon.
The argument that using an exploit is immoral shows a lack of understanding of morals and values. What is clear is that those making that argument have a set of values that do not support the use of exploits. I would suggest that given that all bosses can be fairly simply made exploit proof that perhaps Cryptic doesn't hold the same values around these exploits as the player base that so loudly decries their use. Cryptics values are based on overall player experience + money in their bank; as those two are closely tied I would suggest that neither are being hurt by exploits as badly as they are by higher priority fixes and additions. For example getting more end game content in the game than Sharandar, GG, and DDs and expanding the character options (class, paragon paths, visuals etc).
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
if have you played games like Grand theft auto series, it teaches you that cheating in everything is the fastest way to get what you want in life. that's why our new generation kids thinks that cheating is good even if it's wrong.
There have always been individuals more susceptible to greed.
Keep blaming the "New Gen Kids" and their GTA for all of the worlds problems. :rolleyes:
Right now, there's no incentive fighting trash mobs. What do they give? XP? not needed, Gold? nah. It's just an unnecessary risk. If trash can be skipped, they are skipped.
Can't the devs add some other useful drops to trash? like seals or a higher percentage of low rank enchantments?
Why use exploits?
Well there are 2 reasons to run a dungeon; firstly you can be "playing the game" and secondly you can be "getting the gear".
When "playing the game" exploits are undesirable, you want to beat everything and "win".
When "getting the gear" the how is less important than the result. The windows of opportunity are small and you may have limited opportunity to use those windows.
I want to get geared so I can experience other areas of the game. I've only done half of the T2 dungeons, and have never set foot in CN/MC because of gear requirements, so simply I gear to play.
Indeed adding better loot to the "trash" on the way to the boss would be an incentive for people running DDs to "get the gear" to kill the mobs.
Keep in mind this might hurt Cryptic's bottom line, things with hundreds of thousands of AD cost in the AH are an incentive for people to buy Zen to make into AD. This helps fuel the games economy both in and out of game.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
1) Many players are casual computer gamers. Its not their #1 hobby, its just something easy to fit in around the other demands of life and have some fun. These people play MMOs because MMOs allow you to hang out with other people enjoying the same things as you and that helps make it more fun.
To quote a conversation at the start of a DD yesterday;
P1: I don't have very long.
P2: Define "very long"
P1: Until my wife wakes up.
This means they have limited time, 4+ hours on 1 dungeon is a big ask.
2) Connection issues. Not everyone lives in the US with sub-100ms connections.
Consider this math;
Average reaction time 0.25s
US User
Signal from Server to User 0.05s
Return signal to Server 0.05s
Total time for a typical click 0.35s with user reaction time the biggest factor.
Vs
Asia/Pacific User
Signal from Server to user 0.4s (not a mistake)
Return Signal to Server 0.4s
Total time for typical click 1.05s with signal travel time the biggest factor.
For many players outside the US this means that the mob can spawn and kill them before their click to dodge has even reached the server.
This makes solutions that are not dependant on ability to respond quickly desirable.
3) Finding exploits is like solving a puzzle.
Some players just like to find them and there is a certain fun in that challenge. In part its tied to a desire to "go off the beaten path" and learn the limits of the game, in some ways its playing the meta-game not just the game in others its about finding the "path less travelled". In short there is a bunch of reasons people enjoy doing this.
Why use exploits?
Well there are 2 reasons to run a dungeon; firstly you can be "playing the game" and secondly you can be "getting the gear".
When "playing the game" exploits are undesirable, you want to beat everything and "win".
When "getting the gear" the how is less important than the result. The windows of opportunity are small and you may have limited opportunity to use those windows.
In our guild the emphasis is on having fun playing the game, we run dungeons with and without exploits with success with only factors like "available time" really determining the path we take through the dungeon.
The argument that using an exploit is immoral shows a lack of understanding of morals and values. What is clear is that those making that argument have a set of values that do not support the use of exploits. I would suggest that given that all bosses can be fairly simply made exploit proof that perhaps Cryptic doesn't hold the same values around these exploits as the player base that so loudly decries their use. Cryptics values are based on overall player experience + money in their bank; as those two are closely tied I would suggest that neither are being hurt by exploits as badly as they are by higher priority fixes and additions. For example getting more end game content in the game than Sharandar, GG, and DDs and expanding the character options (class, paragon paths, visuals etc).
now I think about it, you make sense actually, I agree with this.
I want to get geared so I can experience other areas of the game. I've only done half of the T2 dungeons, and have never set foot in CN/MC because of gear requirements, so simply I gear to play.
Makes two of us.
I am learning my class, the gameplay and how to mesh these things with my playstyle (which I'm also learning) as I gear up my CW. These folks who've been playing MMOs for years casting judgement on me for not knowing all this stuff when I haven't been playing MMOs for 6 months are missing some important aspects of the game experience; notably the new player ones.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
I am learning my class, the gameplay and how to mesh these things with my playstyle (which I'm also learning) as I gear up my CW. These folks who've been playing MMOs for years casting judgement on me for not knowing all this stuff when I haven't been playing MMOs for 6 months are missing some important aspects of the game experience; notably the new player ones.
Yup! Me and my buds tend to take people under our wing when we gear up in most MMOs.
It can be real hard for new players to feel comfortable and advance at all in games today.
Gems are a item that seems to go for a decent price on AH and if you combine them you get better gems for your precious gear! Upgrade your gear with gems! yay! (Good job on targeting gear junkies on that part with the wards hehe....) Those are worth killing the mobs for yes?
My suggestion to attract more people to dungeons to farm more gear (ignoring having fun with a new group of players) is maybe dropping rare items that will give an extra buff to your character when used for a certain amount of time. But that certainly will not stop cheaters from just skipping along to the purple at the end to farm salvage items for diamonds.
I like to follow my nose, follow the glitter and I will find that magical bowl of froot loops one day... I hope!
But then again botting the items in the dungeons might start going off the charts unless the items are bop or make extemely rare trash mob items that are not bound? Those bots sure do progress fast. Curse them and their unfair advantage!
Which brings up a major point maybe the exploiters that like to skip everyone to the end are doing it for excatly that ...so everyone that tags along with them misses that extra rare or handful of gems. Way to corner the market for gangs of griefers/scammers/farmers.
Yup! Me and my buds tend to take people under our wing when we gear up in most MMOs.
It can be real hard for new players to feel comfortable and advance at all in games today.
If there were more players like you, and less like the majority of the posters imo exploitation wouldn't be an issue. The issue is elitist pricks that attempt to enforce their own sense of digital morals on the player base at large while being hypocritical / talking out of both sides of their mouth. I get the whole idea behind "such and such" guild recruiting only certain classes with certain gear scores. That being said, I find it absurd when those same folks talk about how elite players don't need to glitch / cheat / exploit (or whatever else you want to call it).
How about helping others out instead of standing on your digital pedestal and acting like you are Gods amongst men?
Define exploit? I know those that define exploiting as leaving one (yes one) trash mob alive during a dungeon run. Never mind that you can hug a right hand wall and avoid a 30 second fight here and there. Ever play PnP? Outsmarting the GM was a very viable way to play. Imo, same applies to dungeons.
Why exploit? To make phat lootz. (sorry, love Bill's Tavern)
I'll show you a guy that is pro exploiter, would you like to learn more?
As a rogue he just wants to run to next camp stealthed then eveyone else dies and relogs to get where he is. IMO that is one exploit.
You are avoiding mobs to get to the boss that holds the loot faster and easily by doing things that were not really intended when dungeon design was created.( I hope )
Also there is one dungeon you go in the last door, everyone jumps out of a glitch in the map back out the door then the boss kills herself or something then you goto chest, not to mention the glitch in the map there that you jump up through a crack in the cavern roof and do a camp run after that point. You actually avoid half the dungeon. During DD event you can avoid half the epic dungeon not even have to kill the boss in 15 mins or less if your fast enough and pro at it... probably and earn whatever diamond value for that purple. This was the first time I witnessed this exploit behaviour and I got DCed and could not open the chest at the end. First I thought these were secrets possibly in game, but I am leaning towards dungeons flaws now. Especially after having to kill yourself to get to next camp area.
Not knowing this guy was gonna do this I wasted 2 full assortments of potions I used for buffs and of course wasted my time not getting any l33t l3wt. But it was "kinda fun" learning the "secret of the ninja passages"... thats about it. Secret areas are wickedly interesting and would keep players around more IMO.
OK? IMO exploits and doing these things should be a bannable offense if not reported after a while of doing it all the time. Also they should be fixed ASAP.
That is why half the player base would leave. The good ones that lean towards honest playstyle. What would you have left for player base after that? Unfair advantage from cheating is something most people do not like.... any competition vs cheaters is toasted usually.
Please delete this post if talking about exploits is not allowed. I am still unsure of your line of rules regarding discussions. Thank You.
Another thing I thought of is that one of the problems people have is that the game up to level 60 is pretty much a solo experience, most players do not start learning how to play in a group until they hit Epic DDs. So the cries of "learn how to play" are not unreasonable, but the simple truth is people don't expect the game to change so significantly when they hit 60.
Even the non-Epic dungeons do not require the level of co-ordination of the Epic versions of the same, heck just compare regular DV to Epic DV, the difficulty level change is huge. So how are people learning except by playing?
With low rewards for playing and failing there is a lot of incentive to "exploit" when you can change from failing to success.
Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin Obsidian Oath - Warlock A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
I'll show you a guy that is pro exploiter, would you like to learn more?
As a rogue he just wants to run to next camp stealthed then eveyone else dies and relogs to get where he is. IMO that is one exploit.
You are avoiding mobs to get to the boss that holds the loot faster and easily by doing things that were not really intended when dungeon design was created.( I hope )
Also there is one dungeon you go in the last door, everyone jumps out of a glitch in the map back out the door then the boss kills herself or something then you goto chest, not to mention the glitch in the map there that you jump up through a crack in the cavern roof and do a camp run after that point. You actually avoid half the dungeon. During DD event you can avoid half the epic dungeon not even have to kill the boss in 15 mins or less if your fast enough and pro at it... probably and earn whatever diamond value for that purple. This was the first time I witnessed this exploit behaviour and I got DCed and could not open the chest at the end. First I thought these were secrets possibly in game, but I am leaning towards dungeons flaws now. Especially after having to kill yourself to get to next camp area.
Not knowing this guy was gonna do this I wasted 2 full assortments of potions I used for buffs and of course wasted my time not getting any l33t l3wt. But it was "kinda fun" learning the "secret of the ninja passages"... thats about it. Secret areas are wickedly interesting and would keep players around more IMO.
OK? IMO exploits and doing these things should be a bannable offense if not reported after a while of doing it all the time. Also they should be fixed ASAP.
That is why half the player base would leave. The goods one that lean towards honest playstyle. What would have left for player base after that? Unfair advantage from cheating is something most people do not like. Any competition is toasted.
Please delete this post if talking about exploits is not allowed. I am still unsure of your line of rules regarding discussions. Thank You.
Spider is fixed, for most... (beholder).
Delete my post too if you are deleting his. That Terrell Owens stealth build is great but incomplete compared to my perfected stealth hybrid solo build which is now necessary since people want to kick others from queued dungeons.
Hope you get a failed group, watch them leave: profit; solo dungeon.
1) When did MMOs become considered casual?
2) Why do casual gamers, who usually want a quick fix even want to play something like an MMO?
I see alot people saying well this/that needs to appeal to the casual gamer? I always interpreted a casual gamer as someone who wants something simple but entertaining, that you can play in 15 mins or less spurts for enjoyment. So a dungeon that requires a recommended of completion time of 45mins is by no means a casual experience. There's DDO, LOTR, SWTOR, EQ1+2, and the list goes on and on... Not one of them could be considered a casual game. Anyrhing that doesn't fall into the above criteria can't really be considered casual.
MMOs have always been the FPS, or FTS, or Combat Fighter for the fantasy "hard-core" nerds. It's never been about the casual gamer. I've said it more than once... there IS nothing casual about learning how to take down an end-boss at the end of a dungeon. You learn, wipe adapt, and learn more.... to eventually success! It's not meant to be that quick fix! With so many games catering to the casual gamer... why do casual gamers even want to play MMOs... something that historically is meant to be a challenge?
Using that as justification to exploit is a cop-out mister 37yo... so says the 40yo SR.Systems Engineer, with an average work week of 50 to 70 hours. My advice is to actually play a casual quick fix game!
And if you've never played a grind MMO... then sir this is not the game for you...
Actually, a casual gamer has only a few days (or hours) in a week to dedicate to a game. That don't mean 15min. They're the ones that will be in and out of game as their time allows.
A casual gamer usually does not stress a min/max built - they do what they're comfortable with and will build a character based on what works for them. They're not going to be elitist about builds so long as the build works and isnt fully useless. That said, I know of a few people that were able to do end game content as it was released in other games as 'casuals' spending only a few hours on tues/thurs to clear bosses.
That having been said, I prefer full clears - even as a casual gamer that occasionally only has enough time to log in, do one legit clear, then log out.
Also, @ TripsOfThrymr, I'm sending you a random friend request and taking you up on that challenge to legit do dungeons. I have been hunting since hitting lvl 60 for legit DDs and if you're willing to take on my TR I would love to hit them up. (I also have a DC that I'll run outside DDs to get her gear - but the TR is my main which is why she gets DD first pick till I've geared her).
I admit, I have done the 'shortcuts', and *****ed the entire way through because I do prefer doing legit dungeons - I just dont see much way out for my TR till I manage to find a group willing to do legit DD, and willing to take me into them as yet-another-dps.
Edit: I also just got to watch a great DC that was really good at what he was doing say screw it he was quitting the game over the pt exploiting. When urged to find a legit group/channel or tell parties before joining that he requires a legit DD, his response was: No thanks, I'd rather play tetris. Makes me sad to see even more legit players leaving the game.
I am curious as well - is there a new legit DD channel? I know some of the servers had one, but I haven't been able to find any since the merge. Anyone got pointers on which channels to join?
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
/Channel_Join NW_Legit_Community to run Dungeons without the exploits
1st: Crappy rewards.
2nd: Crappy rewards, nothing but the same gear everyone has/uses. no recepies drop, etc
3rd: They have never told us what is an exploit and what is not. For example: the last boss in CN, is it intended to push the mobs on the ledge? or is that en exploit? Are you supposed to push adds of ledges at all?
4th: The length/amount of pots etc etc required to finish a dungeon (for example MC) for blue loot at the end boss. is so lame i've stopped doing it actually
5th: Everyone is aiming for the same gear, same enchants, same stuff since its clear to everyone that knows alittle, knows what is best for their class, and once they get what there are here for they have nothing to grind for. So doing a full 1 hour dungeon with no exploits would be not only boring but rewardless and for no reason at all.
So basically, finishing a dungeon the normal way, for no reward is stupid and cryptic should feel stupid for not implementing some rewards for clearing trash, etc.
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seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You got your examples and reasoning about why nobody want to clear UNREWARDING trash. I'm telling you again:
Make trash drop epic craft materials, new patterns of whatever, pieces of a legendary weapon, unique cosmetic items - anything that makes it worthwhile - and people not only will want to kill the trash, they will FARM the trash.
But you still keep on going with the ridiculous thought that OMG the T2s are so hard people skip because they can't do it.
Newsflash:
People (like some I know, don't know for others) skip when it is time efficient, to maximize loot. Humans don't have infinite time, our lives are finite, it's logical we intend to make the most of what we have.
Also you had examples of very popular dungeons&raids from the most popular MMO out there, with rewarding (much fewer) trash compared to NWO, where people killed trash on a normal basis, so it is extremely viable to make farming trash a better proposition than skipping it, because you would not want to miss on things.
But even with these clear arguments, you look so stubborn and uncompromising in your posts, you'll never admit that better solutions are possible and that dungeon design in NWO is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and flawed.
Farming trash is a joke. Start doing the dungeons the correct way or don't do them at all. Eventually it will be fixed, it just is a matter of time. You say it is to "save time", how much time are you trying to save? Do you only play 1 hour a day? Why should somebody who puts in 1 hour of work be on the same level of somebody who puts on 6 hours of work?
A casual gamer is a player whose time or interest in playing games is limited. Casual gamers tend to play games designed for ease of gameplay and don't spend much time playing more involved games. The genres that casual gamers play vary, and they might not own a specific video game console to play their games.[4][5] Casual gamer demographics vary greatly from those of other video gamers, as the typical casual gamer is older and more predominantly female.[6] One casual gamer subset is the "fitness gamer", who plays motion-based exercise games.[7]
The term casual gamer can be used to distinguish between play styles of level-based character advance in nonlinear games with respect to the amount of dedicated hours of play. MMORPGs may require many hours of grinding to develop a character to maximum level and reach the endgame, and are thus not typically suited for casual gaming. However, games like DOFUS, Eve Online and The Lord of the Rings Online try to balance leveling between any casual gamers and those dedicating more hours to the game.[8]
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So yeah you can do it... but historically most MMOs don't cater to casual gaming
Comments
work at your class, work on clearing the dungeons the right way, and you will actually have fun.. if you are any good at your class you can clear most trash just as fast as the idiots bypassing them.. you wont have any deaths and you will save gold on kits. God forbid you actually spend the time PROGRESSING through the content!
i got lucky when i pick up rank 7 enchantment gem off the ground few weeks ago.
folks who skipped or run pass them and they dont know what they would missed, even they skipped some chests or kit packs in some dark spots.
hmmm? hmmm
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
You talk as though the mechanics are sound. It's not a question of the difficulty, but a question of something so simple that they keep doing which is adding a plethora of adds to situations that would be better managed if there were actual tactics in play.
I've grinded my way through other MMORPGs. In NW it can be very difficult to get into the position to start grinding things as we're pigeon-holed down the road that leads to instances, or Gauntlgrym.
The system requires you to a) Find a group of players that will help you over the initial curve - or attempt things on your own, to which, b) You encounter a large majority that wishes to exploit to save time/get loots because they are finding it that hard to find a solid group, along with a chunk of players who do not wish to exploit. It all comes down to the choice of the player and whether or not they are feeling as though they are getting anywhere in the game. The casual player will always exist, as will the hardcore player.
Some can't get into the fray and put themselves in a position to pursue content. The biggest problem with dungeons (in my opinion) are the steep requirements and the lack of team orientation. Yes there are guilds out there that will help you, but with the three shards that has been a big problem. Hopefully this merge adds more diversity to the dungeon pool and allows for more available progression.
I play a lot, 8-10+ hours a day most days of the week as I work from home. I'm on quite a bit, and getting groups together on my shard is still hell for me lately. I go with what I get these days.
Your answer to yourself was "because they hate dungeons" If you hate the dungeons so much, my suggestion to you is do not go in them.
Need gear? Need your precious loot? Buy it in AH or with Zen or do dailys. There is easier ways to get purples in this game then dungeons. PvP for example. Pray to the gods to get FREE diamonds and spend them to get what you need. Is that to hard to spend currency you get free and very easy?
Bless Cryptic for being generous. How do you repay them? Complain...derp. The game is practically free except for the energy you use, the rent you pay at your house, and your cable fee... Well also the food and water/koolaid you have to consume to survive the horror of farming dungeons. Which any of those has nothing to do with Cryptic except they might care a bit about you....(maybe)
Thank you for this Cryptic and some players I am sure will donate appropriately having faith in your game and your company. Like myself.... You are never forced to spend a single dime ingame. I still do not see why people complain about not getting what they want, when they want and they better do it asap. Blaming it on the grind mechanic or the "time is worth money" arguement. Get a job...period.
People are trying to think of ways to get what the need or want with hardly any effort at all. That may be how evolution works to advance human kind... But I am not really one to want to see a futre of a bunch of fat slobs that pig out all day on pixel items to sell or whatever to pay thier rent in mom's basement. Imagine a long time ago when people actually had to work hard for food and a place to live eh? derp. As soon as I gotz to level 60, I contributed and bought some Zen. They deserve it.
As far as I go I dislike cheaters / exploiters / farmers gold sellers etc... Most of these people are not qualified or fit for normal labour in the real world so they need to find a way to eat. Even if it is $10 a day. That is just one theory of mine. Cheat to eat.
I think Cryptic made a AWESOME game, yes there is bugs. But to exploit these bugs and not report them is gonna ruin the game in the long run... and the bugs will never get fixed that way. I love the stance Cryptic has that targets farmers. Keep up the good work.
I leveled to 60 doing quests, which normally I get sick of doing in other games. But I found that the quest line gave alot of exp and was interesting. I still do quests at 60 through the campaign dailys. For the most part I would like the boons and progress further for access into other new areas like the dungeon there.
Gratz Cryptic! ... I feel you made a awesome game. The dungeons are fine the way they are. If anything make them longer and harder 8) But not impossible. When I find a dungeon that is very hard, all it does is challenges me to go back and finish it and get better at it, to improve my skills.
I have this guy in my guild that likes to exploit these bugs and seems to wanna teach people to skip to the end boss get the loot, rinse and repeat. What should I do with him? I am being patient with him and trying to understand why he does this? Maybe he needs to eat? Dunno... If I participate will I get banned? lol.
The potential for Cryptic to make millions on millions and more profit is very possible imo. They set up a very nice game, best I have played in a long time. Good luck. and Thank You for letting me play your game free! YAY!
P.S. PLEASE do not cater to the players that want everything easy. We need a good challenge to seperate the wimps and the HEROS of NEVERWINTER!
Then to PvP and kill some noobs :mad: ....Also where do you submit suggestions?
This post took me 1/2 hour and it was well worth it to sincerely express my gratitude to Cryptic for allowing me to participate in their great game. Thank You again.
This game is based around gear - it's the only step towards progression if one wishes to progress.
So your solution is for everybody to just fork over real money or do dailies for aeons?
*cough* There is only three other ways to get purples in this game. The first being standard PvP, the second being Gauntlgrym, an extension of that. The third being through Sharandar which is T1 equivalent gear outside of MC. Who is interested in simply acquiring T1 and then calling it quits?
Bless them for being so generous? The game may be free, but it's based entirely around dungeons and the limited PvP that's available. Without a viable form of progressing down these routes or attaining variety then what would be the point in playing? A minority of players are doing CN/MC, much more than people think. There's a reason why 75% of players have the standard horse mount with a gear score between 9-10k.
I'm tired of people bathing in some sort of arrogance relating to purported skill. It takes skill to play your class well, but with regards to progression and enjoying the game and getting further it comes purely down to whether you were one of the early folk who got their T2 armor and now progress daily, or whether you spend real cash on the game to get further - otherwise you are a free player who may find it difficult to progress because you're at the bottom of the food chain with inflated AH prices and strict LFG requirements.
So then people say, well you're a F2P player, don't whine, just enjoy what you have. It's silly and insulting in ways, acting as though people should be fine because they can simply play the game.
You lost me there sorry! I disagree. I do have experience on dealing with people that think everyone should be geared up or quit the game. those people seem to be just AH junkies and rip off artists.
Gear means not much and will be the TRUE waste of time as they just add new gear to the game as the game moves on.
If Cryptic plans to add a expansion pack...say for lvl 60 - 90. Your gear is useless and even the company wasted time making all that level 60 <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
The idea of level 60 forever in a >level based game< is nuts. Gear is nothing. Fun, enjoyment and value of entertainment is everything. If you are stuck on gear I feel sorry for you l33t kids. Sure gear may be a factor but is by no means a sign of a skilled player. Wake up.
The shard wars are finally over. PEACE.
I made a tank to avoid long ques knowing full well there will be tons of dps junkies out there. Plus I like to help people gear up in dungeons. Not an issue as I do not just think myself and then "attempt" to help others by telling them get geared or get out and if you do not like it everyone will leave"
I will continue to put good gear in AH for the cheapest price possible and I will continue to help others in dungeons. If I ruin a gold farmers job in the process.. I do not care because they are here to ruin the game.
Also gear is not the only way to progress after 60. As I see it you can do the dailys to collect "boons" to improve stats on your character. If you get to 60 get fully geared and ignore these boons, your gimped. Not even to mention trade skills... I waited til 60 to even start any trade skills because I could not afford it gold wise. Now I am only still at level 5 Leadership and Level 4 Alchemy. I suspect there will be other ways to progress as well in the near futre. Good luck farming gear all day to advance to your next level of farming more gear.
Because most of the players haven't learned their class well enough from leveling to make the auto-queue system reliable.
I didn't say that gear is a sure sign of a skilled player. I said that it takes a skilled player to play their class well. I have fun playing this game, but I play it to progress because that's kind of the point. I'm not a gear <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> who wishes to be the best of the best or a "l33t kid", I just enjoy the opportunity to explore regions of the game that are available, many of which are gear dependent.
It seems you like to judge and generalize about people, calling people AH junkies and such.
I am deeply relieved that the shards are merging for there will be much more variety for players.
if have you played games like Grand theft auto series, it teaches you that cheating in everything is the fastest way to get what you want in life. that's why our new generation kids thinks that cheating is good even if it's wrong.
1) Many players are casual computer gamers. Its not their #1 hobby, its just something easy to fit in around the other demands of life and have some fun. These people play MMOs because MMOs allow you to hang out with other people enjoying the same things as you and that helps make it more fun.
To quote a conversation at the start of a DD yesterday;
P1: I don't have very long.
P2: Define "very long"
P1: Until my wife wakes up.
This means they have limited time, 4+ hours on 1 dungeon is a big ask.
2) Connection issues. Not everyone lives in the US with sub-100ms connections.
Consider this math;
Average reaction time 0.25s
US User
Signal from Server to User 0.05s
Return signal to Server 0.05s
Total time for a typical click 0.35s with user reaction time the biggest factor.
Vs
Asia/Pacific User
Signal from Server to user 0.4s (not a mistake)
Return Signal to Server 0.4s
Total time for typical click 1.05s with signal travel time the biggest factor.
For many players outside the US this means that the mob can spawn and kill them before their click to dodge has even reached the server.
This makes solutions that are not dependant on ability to respond quickly desirable.
3) Finding exploits is like solving a puzzle.
Some players just like to find them and there is a certain fun in that challenge. In part its tied to a desire to "go off the beaten path" and learn the limits of the game, in some ways its playing the meta-game not just the game in others its about finding the "path less travelled". In short there is a bunch of reasons people enjoy doing this.
Why use exploits?
Well there are 2 reasons to run a dungeon; firstly you can be "playing the game" and secondly you can be "getting the gear".
When "playing the game" exploits are undesirable, you want to beat everything and "win".
When "getting the gear" the how is less important than the result. The windows of opportunity are small and you may have limited opportunity to use those windows.
In our guild the emphasis is on having fun playing the game, we run dungeons with and without exploits with success with only factors like "available time" really determining the path we take through the dungeon.
The argument that using an exploit is immoral shows a lack of understanding of morals and values. What is clear is that those making that argument have a set of values that do not support the use of exploits. I would suggest that given that all bosses can be fairly simply made exploit proof that perhaps Cryptic doesn't hold the same values around these exploits as the player base that so loudly decries their use. Cryptics values are based on overall player experience + money in their bank; as those two are closely tied I would suggest that neither are being hurt by exploits as badly as they are by higher priority fixes and additions. For example getting more end game content in the game than Sharandar, GG, and DDs and expanding the character options (class, paragon paths, visuals etc).
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
There have always been individuals more susceptible to greed.
Keep blaming the "New Gen Kids" and their GTA for all of the worlds problems. :rolleyes:
Can't the devs add some other useful drops to trash? like seals or a higher percentage of low rank enchantments?
ROFL... this is so true. I still remember complaints of people exploiting back on text muds.
I want to get geared so I can experience other areas of the game. I've only done half of the T2 dungeons, and have never set foot in CN/MC because of gear requirements, so simply I gear to play.
Keep in mind this might hurt Cryptic's bottom line, things with hundreds of thousands of AD cost in the AH are an incentive for people to buy Zen to make into AD. This helps fuel the games economy both in and out of game.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
now I think about it, you make sense actually, I agree with this.
I am learning my class, the gameplay and how to mesh these things with my playstyle (which I'm also learning) as I gear up my CW. These folks who've been playing MMOs for years casting judgement on me for not knowing all this stuff when I haven't been playing MMOs for 6 months are missing some important aspects of the game experience; notably the new player ones.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Yup! Me and my buds tend to take people under our wing when we gear up in most MMOs.
It can be real hard for new players to feel comfortable and advance at all in games today.
My suggestion to attract more people to dungeons to farm more gear (ignoring having fun with a new group of players) is maybe dropping rare items that will give an extra buff to your character when used for a certain amount of time. But that certainly will not stop cheaters from just skipping along to the purple at the end to farm salvage items for diamonds.
I like to follow my nose, follow the glitter and I will find that magical bowl of froot loops one day... I hope!
But then again botting the items in the dungeons might start going off the charts unless the items are bop or make extemely rare trash mob items that are not bound? Those bots sure do progress fast. Curse them and their unfair advantage!
Which brings up a major point maybe the exploiters that like to skip everyone to the end are doing it for excatly that ...so everyone that tags along with them misses that extra rare or handful of gems. Way to corner the market for gangs of griefers/scammers/farmers.
If there were more players like you, and less like the majority of the posters imo exploitation wouldn't be an issue. The issue is elitist pricks that attempt to enforce their own sense of digital morals on the player base at large while being hypocritical / talking out of both sides of their mouth. I get the whole idea behind "such and such" guild recruiting only certain classes with certain gear scores. That being said, I find it absurd when those same folks talk about how elite players don't need to glitch / cheat / exploit (or whatever else you want to call it).
How about helping others out instead of standing on your digital pedestal and acting like you are Gods amongst men?
Define exploit? I know those that define exploiting as leaving one (yes one) trash mob alive during a dungeon run. Never mind that you can hug a right hand wall and avoid a 30 second fight here and there. Ever play PnP? Outsmarting the GM was a very viable way to play. Imo, same applies to dungeons.
Why exploit? To make phat lootz. (sorry, love Bill's Tavern)
Point: Be more helpful and less egotistical.
As a rogue he just wants to run to next camp stealthed then eveyone else dies and relogs to get where he is. IMO that is one exploit.
You are avoiding mobs to get to the boss that holds the loot faster and easily by doing things that were not really intended when dungeon design was created.( I hope )
Also there is one dungeon you go in the last door, everyone jumps out of a glitch in the map back out the door then the boss kills herself or something then you goto chest, not to mention the glitch in the map there that you jump up through a crack in the cavern roof and do a camp run after that point. You actually avoid half the dungeon. During DD event you can avoid half the epic dungeon not even have to kill the boss in 15 mins or less if your fast enough and pro at it... probably and earn whatever diamond value for that purple. This was the first time I witnessed this exploit behaviour and I got DCed and could not open the chest at the end. First I thought these were secrets possibly in game, but I am leaning towards dungeons flaws now. Especially after having to kill yourself to get to next camp area.
Not knowing this guy was gonna do this I wasted 2 full assortments of potions I used for buffs and of course wasted my time not getting any l33t l3wt. But it was "kinda fun" learning the "secret of the ninja passages"... thats about it. Secret areas are wickedly interesting and would keep players around more IMO.
OK? IMO exploits and doing these things should be a bannable offense if not reported after a while of doing it all the time. Also they should be fixed ASAP.
That is why half the player base would leave. The good ones that lean towards honest playstyle. What would you have left for player base after that? Unfair advantage from cheating is something most people do not like.... any competition vs cheaters is toasted usually.
Please delete this post if talking about exploits is not allowed. I am still unsure of your line of rules regarding discussions. Thank You.
Even the non-Epic dungeons do not require the level of co-ordination of the Epic versions of the same, heck just compare regular DV to Epic DV, the difficulty level change is huge. So how are people learning except by playing?
With low rewards for playing and failing there is a lot of incentive to "exploit" when you can change from failing to success.
Obsidian Oath - Warlock
A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
Spider is fixed, for most... (beholder).
Delete my post too if you are deleting his. That Terrell Owens stealth build is great but incomplete compared to my perfected stealth hybrid solo build which is now necessary since people want to kick others from queued dungeons.
Hope you get a failed group, watch them leave: profit; solo dungeon.
Actually, a casual gamer has only a few days (or hours) in a week to dedicate to a game. That don't mean 15min. They're the ones that will be in and out of game as their time allows.
A casual gamer usually does not stress a min/max built - they do what they're comfortable with and will build a character based on what works for them. They're not going to be elitist about builds so long as the build works and isnt fully useless. That said, I know of a few people that were able to do end game content as it was released in other games as 'casuals' spending only a few hours on tues/thurs to clear bosses.
That having been said, I prefer full clears - even as a casual gamer that occasionally only has enough time to log in, do one legit clear, then log out.
Also, @ TripsOfThrymr, I'm sending you a random friend request and taking you up on that challenge to legit do dungeons. I have been hunting since hitting lvl 60 for legit DDs and if you're willing to take on my TR I would love to hit them up. (I also have a DC that I'll run outside DDs to get her gear - but the TR is my main which is why she gets DD first pick till I've geared her).
I admit, I have done the 'shortcuts', and *****ed the entire way through because I do prefer doing legit dungeons - I just dont see much way out for my TR till I manage to find a group willing to do legit DD, and willing to take me into them as yet-another-dps.
Edit: I also just got to watch a great DC that was really good at what he was doing say screw it he was quitting the game over the pt exploiting. When urged to find a legit group/channel or tell parties before joining that he requires a legit DD, his response was: No thanks, I'd rather play tetris. Makes me sad to see even more legit players leaving the game.
I am curious as well - is there a new legit DD channel? I know some of the servers had one, but I haven't been able to find any since the merge. Anyone got pointers on which channels to join?
1st: Crappy rewards.
2nd: Crappy rewards, nothing but the same gear everyone has/uses. no recepies drop, etc
3rd: They have never told us what is an exploit and what is not. For example: the last boss in CN, is it intended to push the mobs on the ledge? or is that en exploit? Are you supposed to push adds of ledges at all?
4th: The length/amount of pots etc etc required to finish a dungeon (for example MC) for blue loot at the end boss. is so lame i've stopped doing it actually
5th: Everyone is aiming for the same gear, same enchants, same stuff since its clear to everyone that knows alittle, knows what is best for their class, and once they get what there are here for they have nothing to grind for. So doing a full 1 hour dungeon with no exploits would be not only boring but rewardless and for no reason at all.
So basically, finishing a dungeon the normal way, for no reward is stupid and cryptic should feel stupid for not implementing some rewards for clearing trash, etc.
Farming trash is a joke. Start doing the dungeons the correct way or don't do them at all. Eventually it will be fixed, it just is a matter of time. You say it is to "save time", how much time are you trying to save? Do you only play 1 hour a day? Why should somebody who puts in 1 hour of work be on the same level of somebody who puts on 6 hours of work?
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
Casual gamer
See also: Casual game
A casual gamer is a player whose time or interest in playing games is limited. Casual gamers tend to play games designed for ease of gameplay and don't spend much time playing more involved games. The genres that casual gamers play vary, and they might not own a specific video game console to play their games.[4][5] Casual gamer demographics vary greatly from those of other video gamers, as the typical casual gamer is older and more predominantly female.[6] One casual gamer subset is the "fitness gamer", who plays motion-based exercise games.[7]
The term casual gamer can be used to distinguish between play styles of level-based character advance in nonlinear games with respect to the amount of dedicated hours of play. MMORPGs may require many hours of grinding to develop a character to maximum level and reach the endgame, and are thus not typically suited for casual gaming. However, games like DOFUS, Eve Online and The Lord of the Rings Online try to balance leveling between any casual gamers and those dedicating more hours to the game.[8]
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So yeah you can do it... but historically most MMOs don't cater to casual gaming