1st: Crappy rewards.
2nd: Crappy rewards, nothing but the same gear everyone has/uses. no recepies drop, etc
3rd: They have never told us what is an exploit and what is not. For example: the last boss in CN, is it intended to push the mobs on the ledge? or is that en exploit? Are you supposed to push adds of ledges at all?
4th: The length/amount of pots etc etc required to finish a dungeon (for example MC) for blue loot at the end boss. is so lame i've stopped doing it actually
5th: Everyone is aiming for the same gear, same enchants, same stuff since its clear to everyone that knows alittle, knows what is best for their class, and once they get what there are here for they have nothing to grind for. So doing a full 1 hour dungeon with no exploits would be not only boring but rewardless and for no reason at all.
So basically, finishing a dungeon the normal way, for no reward is stupid and cryptic should feel stupid for not implementing some rewards for clearing trash, etc.
So basically you want to just zone in and the loot is there in front of you, no mobs, no boss, nothing? Why even bother playing the game.
A casual gamer is a player whose time or interest in playing games is limited. Casual gamers tend to play games designed for ease of gameplay and don't spend much time playing more involved games. The genres that casual gamers play vary, and they might not own a specific video game console to play their games.[4][5] Casual gamer demographics vary greatly from those of other video gamers, as the typical casual gamer is older and more predominantly female.[6] One casual gamer subset is the "fitness gamer", who plays motion-based exercise games.[7]
The term casual gamer can be used to distinguish between play styles of level-based character advance in nonlinear games with respect to the amount of dedicated hours of play. MMORPGs may require many hours of grinding to develop a character to maximum level and reach the endgame, and are thus not typically suited for casual gaming. However, games like DOFUS, Eve Online and The Lord of the Rings Online try to balance leveling between any casual gamers and those dedicating more hours to the game.[8]
--
So yeah you can do it... but historically most MMOs don't cater to casual gaming
Casual gamers and bad players should not be able to get the same level of loot as hardcore and high end players.
So basically you want to just zone in and the loot is there in front of you, no mobs, no boss, nothing? Why even bother playing the game.
Thats a great question, one i am asking myself everyday.
Now that i got the gear i need, the amount of AD i consider enough for any upcomming patch. I have no reason to play
Actually you couldn't be further from the truth. See the difference between ********* is that we don't cheat to complete the content and your guild just cheats. I've been there and seen it first hand. "Spider boss too hard, lets just glitch it" was your reply. Our guild plays at such a high level that we laugh at exploiters like you.
But we are very helpful in our guild, to people who want to play the game correctly and not cheat. We have geared up several people that we have met and a ton of people on this forum can vouch for us (like @TripsOfThrymr) as being a legit guild that plays at a high level.
Cryptic is going to fix all the cheating and exploits eventually. It will be up to you to decide if you want to play legit or not. But at the end of the day, some people will never be able to play at a high level and complete the content legitimately, because they are simply bad players.
This is so pathetic... "You garbage exploiters/cheaters/whatever can't hold a candle to our amazing elite PvE skills!" PvE is unchanging, you could program 5 bots to complete any PvE content. The only content in this game that requires thought and reaction is PvP, and your guild doesn't do it lol.
Seriously get off your high horse, completing PvE means nothing, and anyone with a brain can do it without exploits. It just so happens that anyone with a brain also likes to complete repetitive and easy PvE dungeons in as little time as possible, and therefor take the shortest route to the loot.
I can already hear your "No we are just more skilled than anyone else b/c we kill 15 extra trash mobs that you skip" response, so please save it, as there is no skill requirement for PvE, you just have to learn the fight 1 time.
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Casual gamers and bad players should not be able to get the same level of loot as hardcore and high end players.
Lol you are such an elitist ******. "Only people who spend 8 hours a day playing the game should have good gear". Open invitation to your guild for PvP, we will stomp your "Hardcore and High end" player's faces. But you won't accept cause you don't PvP...
LOL probably challenge us to a Legit dungeon clear race hahahaha
Guild Master of <Enemy Team>
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
0
cbrowne0329Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 293Arc User
Define exploit? I know those that define exploiting as leaving one (yes one) trash mob alive during a dungeon run. Never mind that you can hug a right hand wall and avoid a 30 second fight here and there. Ever play PnP? Outsmarting the GM was a very viable way to play. Imo, same applies to dungeons.
Exploit: Using a method to advance against designed parameters.
examples:
1) Glitching a boss so he can't attack you, while you attack him.
2) Making a boss kill itself.
3) Jumping through a map to advance
4) Killing yourself to advance
5) Taking advantage of built in help system
Why i exploit? HMMMM THIS IS A HARD ONE
1st: Crappy rewards. stop playing
2nd: Crappy rewards, nothing but the same gear everyone has/uses. no recepies drop, etc stop playing
3rd: They have never told us what is an exploit and what is not. For example: the last boss in CN, is it intended to push the mobs on the ledge? or is that en exploit? Are you supposed to push adds of ledges at all? Why Yes... Yes they have... Just because you refuse to acknowledge it doe not make it so. The devs demos showed ledge throwing to be a valid tactic. Notice the mobs ALO use this tactic on you?
4th: The length/amount of pots etc etc required to finish a dungeon (for example MC) for blue loot at the end boss. is so lame i've stopped doing it actually stop playing
5th: Everyone is aiming for the same gear, same enchants, same stuff since its clear to everyone that knows alittle, knows what is best for their class, and once they get what there are here for they have nothing to grind for. So doing a full 1 hour dungeon with no exploits would be not only boring but rewardless and for no reason at all.
So basically, finishing a dungeon the normal way, for no reward is stupid and cryptic should feel stupid for not implementing some rewards for clearing trash, etc. Stop using Cookie cutter builds. Ignore the cookie cutter build around you and choose to think for yourself.
Look if there is nothing you like about the game, to play it legit? Why play? Why contribute to the corrosion of the community? It logically doesn't make sense? Why waste time on something you don't like. Leave like the others who didn't enjoy it did. It's not worth the effort or your time... negativity is corrosive... and spreads like an acrid stench. No one is forcing you to play... or are they? Are you strapped in a chair somewhere.... do you need us to send help!?!?!?
Another thing I thought of is that one of the problems people have is that the game up to level 60 is pretty much a solo experience, most players do not start learning how to play in a group until they hit Epic DDs. So the cries of "learn how to play" are not unreasonable, but the simple truth is people don't expect the game to change so significantly when they hit 60. - Agreed they need to change this a bit... but I also like it.
Even the non-Epic dungeons do not require the level of co-ordination of the Epic versions of the same, heck just compare regular DV to Epic DV, the difficulty level change is huge. So how are people learning except by playing?
With low rewards for playing and failing there is a lot of incentive to "exploit" when you can change from failing to success.- If you don't like a challenge... why play anEPIC anyway? What is the reward for completing it quickly and then... NO AND THEN!
Seriously not fighting for that loot.... destroys your own enjoyment as well as others. Does a sense of accomplishment mean nothing to you guys?
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Farming trash is a joke. Start doing the dungeons the correct way or don't do them at all. Eventually it will be fixed, it just is a matter of time. You say it is to "save time", how much time are you trying to save? Do you only play 1 hour a day? Why should somebody who puts in 1 hour of work be on the same level of somebody who puts on 6 hours of work?
You STILL don't understand the trash in this game is not rewarding and not worth killing. How hard can it be to comprehend such a simple concept?!?
I already exemplified from how in WoW trash can be very rewarding and worth player's time with epic item and epic pattern drops.
So why not in Neverwinter, I ask you?
0
cbrowne0329Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 293Arc User
You STILL don't understand the trash in this game is not rewarding and not worth killing. How hard can it be to comprehend such a simple concept?!?
I already exemplified from how in WoW trash can be very rewarding and worth player's time with epic item and epic pattern drops.
So why not in Neverwinter, I ask you?
I have no arguments with the trash not being rewarding... I think drops and random encounters need to be added to the game. However, in another thread someone made a good point when this was brought up... if you can get EPIC drops from trash... people would just start farming the trash and not fighting the bosses.
I think a better idea would be to take away the delve... make the dungeons HARDER / longer... yeah I said it... make a dungeon repeatable every few days (DDO-style)... add random encounters (party ambush MC Style, and mini-bosses) in the levels that CAN drop epic loot, that only spawn in certain areas of the dungeon (multiple diff locations, so if you bypass you will miss a chance at the loot). Make more MC shard-like drop for recipes for crafting in every dungeon. Make it so killing non random mini-bosses unlocks the next area with a key drop etc.
Things like this would make people go to and search the dungeons and avoid any unintended exploits. They would also give more compelling reasons to do them.
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I have no arguments with the trash not being rewarding... I think drops and random encounters need to be added to the game. However, in another thread someone made a good point when this was brought up... if you can get EPIC drops from trash... people would just start farming the trash and not fighting the bosses.
I think a better idea would be to take away the delve... make the dungeons HARDER / longer... yeah I said it... make a dungeon repeatable every few days (DDO-style)... add random encounters (party ambush MC Style, and mini-bosses) in the levels that CAN drop epic loot, that only spawn in certain areas of the dungeon (multiple diff locations, so if you bypass you will miss a chance at the loot). Make more MC shard-like drop for recipes for crafting in every dungeon. Make it so killing non random mini-bosses unlocks the next area with a key drop etc.
Things like this would make people go to and search the dungeons and avoid any unintended exploits. They would also give more compelling reasons to do them.
It's absolutely OK if people will start trash-farming
However - the drops rates should be small enough - something like 1%. Also, the bosses should have EVEN BETTER loot, so people would have motivation to kill them.
It is ALL about proper motivation.
I completely agree on harder dungeons. But not indiscriminately. Hard modes should exist, with EVEN BETTER loot - again But normal casuals should be able to do what is now an epic and get some lower-endish purples with reduced stats.
I also agree areas and bosses should be properly unlocked.
But only and just only after trash is rewarding enough.
I said it before:
It doesn't necessarily have to be just "epix" - trash can drop thematic fashion items for that dungeon, companions (very rarely), special dyes, special enchants... the list could go on and on.
But don't make trash in Epic Dungeon drop worse loot that trash from solo-zone like Sharandar...
0
tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I have no arguments with the trash not being rewarding... I think drops and random encounters need to be added to the game. However, in another thread someone made a good point when this was brought up... if you can get EPIC drops from trash... people would just start farming the trash and not fighting the bosses.
I agree... random encounters would be nice - and the random drops should be there but not so amazing that trash farming would follow.
I think a better idea would be to take away the delve... make the dungeons HARDER / longer... yeah I said it... make a dungeon repeatable every few days (DDO-style)... add random encounters (party ambush MC Style, and mini-bosses) in the levels that CAN drop epic loot, that only spawn in certain areas of the dungeon (multiple diff locations, so if you bypass you will miss a chance at the loot). Make more MC shard-like drop for recipes for crafting in every dungeon. Make it so killing non random mini-bosses unlocks the next area with a key drop etc.
I think you are missing one important thing with the 3 day timer concept.
Current content in NW is equivialnt to DDO's Epic Elites - Epics in DDO do not have a 3 day timer.
Though they do apply the concept of a ransack mechanic - 12 or 8 runs will. We do not currently have anything 'end game' that is a raid.
I do not agree with the three day timer, DDO uses that for raids, which we are currently lacking. I say again DDO only has the 3 day timer for raids that are/were end game (Note that TS is a raid that is repeatable as often as you want but it had at one time been 'end game'). All content outside of raids, to include the Epic Elites that you need for certain gear can be repeated as often as you want - but has a ransack (12 or 8 runs before you stop getting loot for every 7 days or so). We do not currently have any content that would warrant the 3 day timers.
Making them longer or harder won't help a **** thing either. Fixing the bosses so they're not trash grinds themselves and adding a bit more to their mechanics would be a good help.
Things like this would make people go to and search the dungeons and avoid any unintended exploits. They would also give more compelling reasons to do them.
Fixing the dungeons would set it up so people would have more reasons to avoid any unintended exploits.
People will exploit if they have the opportunity to exploit in a game - that includes in DDO. We've seen that (or you should have seen that) given the multiple times we've had broken exploits that have released millions of plat into the game, or tons of tomes that they did not intend for us to have. People exploited because they could - even though they likely knew that DDO is good at banning the exploits.
As for the casual core, most MMOs do now cater more to the casual players - that is to include in DDO. I'll believe hardcore again when I start seeing the penalties and grind that I did in FFXI or EQ1 some of the older MMOs before they started to give out their XP buffs to make the games easier.
Also, games will never intentionally limit it so 'casual only' can get their end game loot - because they want the money that older generation that's grown up out of hardcore have.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
/Channel_Join NW_Legit_Community to run Dungeons without the exploits
0
cbrowne0329Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 293Arc User
Also, games will never intentionally limit it so 'casual only' can get their end game loot - because they want the money that older generation that's grown up out of hardcore have.
I'm a 40yo 6-fig income back in the day pro-gamer (when it didn't pay ****) 40-50hrs work week gamer. I started back on Atari 2600, was ranked 25th in Quake2 - ACOM ranked in top 30 in UT, EQ, Halo, EVE, etc etc gamer. I run 6 toons and will be more when they are more classes... I'm at work now fixing a server outage while *****ing in this forum... I'm a founder, bought Feywild, and I spend money where the F2P and casual gamers gripe the most. ... and I'm saying... MMOs should not be catering to the casual-gamer.
Just saying.
0
seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Lol you are such an elitist ******. "Only people who spend 8 hours a day playing the game should have good gear". Open invitation to your guild for PvP, we will stomp your "Hardcore and High end" player's faces. But you won't accept cause you don't PvP...
LOL probably challenge us to a Legit dungeon clear race hahahaha
This is a thread about people using exploits in PVE dungeons.
You STILL don't understand the trash in this game is not rewarding and not worth killing. How hard can it be to comprehend such a simple concept?!?
I already exemplified from how in WoW trash can be very rewarding and worth player's time with epic item and epic pattern drops.
So why not in Neverwinter, I ask you?
I understand the concept. The fact that the trash doesn't drop anything worth your time does not mean that it should just be skipped. If trash was to be skipped there would be none... but the game isn't designed that way.
Farming trash only is ridiculous. If you run dungeons enough (like we do), there would be no need to farm trash since you are going to get drops anyways. The only reason you would farm trash is if you weren't able to kill the boss -- which is what it is starting to sound like.
Try to do 1st karrundax boss... Them you know why we exploit !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That boss is no problem. The only problem on that fight is there is a bug where you randomly will fall through the map. It happened to me last time on my GWF.
But see this is the classic example -- the fights are too hard so therefore we exploit.
I completely agree on harder dungeons. But not indiscriminately. Hard modes should exist, with EVEN BETTER loot - again But normal casuals should be able to do what is now an epic and get some lower-endish purples with reduced stats.
I also agree areas and bosses should be properly unlocked.
But only and just only after trash is rewarding enough.
I said it before:
It doesn't necessarily have to be just "epix" - trash can drop thematic fashion items for that dungeon, companions (very rarely), special dyes, special enchants... the list could go on and on.
If they do hard modes - it's likely it'll be 'throw more trash at the party' I'd be all for hard modes that simply... remove the red **** from the ground and add (for skills with little warning) emotes or something much like games in the past have done. You should be smart enough to see the big dragon taking a deep breath to turn your *** into bbq.
Most groups don't complete anymore (as the OP complained) and that is because many of the current gamers don't have enough brains to understand 'get out of the red stuff, get into the blue stuff'.
I'll say again, their biggest issue is the glitches and exploits exist.
Forcing people to properly unlock bosses through a key drop simply means that they'll play the game fair right up until they get the key drop. Requiring a set number of kills that's high enough to make people clear, but low enough to allow for one or two mobs going into terrain (which is possible without the glitch fest people love to throw in this game - but still potentially allows for throwing if it's a mechanic cryptic wants to allow for) would be ideal.
Until they start putting up enough invisible walls and penalizing the glitching/rewarding those of us willing and looking to actually fight our ways through the dungeons it will continue. ****ty but true.
They need to fix the glitches, jumping and otherwise before they introduce raids. <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> trash spawns in boss fights don't make for a massive challenge and until they add some sort of mechanic other than hit the boss and pray the adds don't overwhelm you before you manage to make it dead, I can't see making harder 'heroics'. (Remember the Epics at the moment ARE what we're suppose to have as heroics - we're just lacking raids).
@cbrowne0329
I'm a combat veteran that enjoys 'casual gaming' - MMOs that cater to casual gaming allowed those of us in the line of fire to login, do what we can while we have time and log off. That's between 12 hour or so shifts (which often bleed over into much more) and using our 'down time' to clean weapons and do all the other odd and end user level maintenance tasks needed for our weapons and gear. I still managed to afford playing the games I enjoy between low pay and long hours. It's a job you need to love to be able to do it.
I was able to login to the various games I've been in while deployed (and yes, since 2003, they've been providing the troops through MWR with that mystical thing called the internet - we now also get wifi in barracks, and have tents with wifi). It meant I got to game while deployed. My guilds at the time got it that I might swear, say afk and not be able to come back. They didn't mind having me in as a 'casual gamer' - and I would count it as casual because it was random when I could get on and how long I could get on (quite often only an hour or so at a time - so I had to make it count). I have the guard pack, and have the feyweild pack, and if you haven't guessed from my sig and the title I have set through the user CP - I also have the founder pack.
I can sympathize with the servers you work on being down too - I got a crash course in IT this last deployment doing signal's job as an MP. My first four months were 12 hour shifts 7 days a week (I still made time to login to DDO) and I was on call 24 hrs a day. I started getting one day a week off once xmas hit - I still had 12 hour shifts the rest of the week. I still filled in my job as an MP - which occasionally made my days 16hr days or better.
Now I hope you're done trying to show off your epeen - it impresses abso-****ing-lutely no one. Just as me bringing up my gaming career while deployed impressed abso-****ing-lutely no one. If you want to ***** about casual-core gamers make a thread for it and keep this one on topic. Thanks.
I also.. never bothered to gripe other than that they need to change DD a bit/improve companions so they're not worthless. Gear is gotten over time through bashing your face on the same instances thousands of times and praying for a drop, the real difference between a casual gamer and a hardcore gamer in MMOs is the casual will take a much longer time to gear up. In Quake and other competition games with ranks it was that they had more time to sink into making it to the higher ranks in ladders, and they were skilled enough to actually make it up those ranked ladders - a casual gamer with less time to sink in won't make the ladders, even if they have sufficient skill to make the ladders because the ladders are going to reward the players with more matches with a higher rank even if their win/lose ratio is the same as a player that is lower in the ladders.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
/Channel_Join NW_Legit_Community to run Dungeons without the exploits
That boss is no problem. The only problem on that fight is there is a bug where you randomly will fall through the map. It happened to me last time on my GWF.
But see this is the classic example -- the fights are too hard so therefore we exploit.
I've legitimately done that boss on a few occasions. She's a ***** but my last run we got her down with 3 of us (The CW and healer left, we were all using the tiefling heal companions so we had some higher level NPCs keeping us alive). The fights are not 'too hard' if you've gotten all the gear possible from the last tier - the fights are annoying and stupid for the rewards they give. You need to out gear the 8.3k they require to hit T2 by hitting around 9k -11k (pref 10 or 11k).
They fixed the glitch people had been using to range her from up top, but people have found yet another glitch to simply range her from somewhere else to complete the dungeon. Other than the spellplague end boss where we're forced to throw adds between fighting phases (even with everyone 11k GS + we didnt have enough damage to clear them before it resurfaced without CW sing+throw) I've managed to down every boss up to CN and MC without glitches. My ***** on the bosses is that they are simple (get out of the red ****) and the main fight mechanic to make things difficult is add control.
Avoid the red **** - CW sing and push/aoe adds, GF/tank type get add attention and kite.
That essentially summed up the fight mechanic for every boss in the game that I've seen so far (as I said, have not seen all bosses in CN and MC though I've visited both) - there's no real challenge to learning a boss in NW. The only real challenge to NW bosses in end game has been learning what the new sweet spot of the week is for glitching a boss now that they fixed an older glitch so that we don't have to deal with the never-ending waves of trash.
I still want to take TripsOfThrymr up on his challenge of legit doing the full dungeons as well - even with my guild being geared enough and capable enough to legit do the bosses they loved to glitch past things.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
/Channel_Join NW_Legit_Community to run Dungeons without the exploits
0
pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I understand the concept. The fact that the trash doesn't drop anything worth your time does not mean that it should just be skipped. If trash was to be skipped there would be none... but the game isn't designed that way.
Farming trash only is ridiculous. If you run dungeons enough (like we do), there would be no need to farm trash since you are going to get drops anyways. The only reason you would farm trash is if you weren't able to kill the boss -- which is what it is starting to sound like.
Nope, you don't understand.
If you did understood trash farming, you'd know that games where it existed, trash dropped very good items and crafting ingredients.
There was no way to get some patterns other than the trash, and some were BoP as well.
So people would farm trash, reset raid, farm trash again, until they got precious epic patterns, which helped immensely in their raid progression.
Also it's OK if somebody cannot kill a boss the first few times. Maybe even a week. Or a month. I LOVE hard bosses. I love bosses that make you cringe and facepalm yourself. They give you a sense of accomplishment when you kill them.
Just give them epic or legendary loot. NOT BLUES...
0
tang56Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Other than the spellplague end boss where we're forced to throw adds between fighting phases (even with everyone 11k GS + we didn't have enough damage to clear them before it resurfaced without CW sing+throw) I've managed to down every boss up to CN and MC without glitches.
I don't see that as a glitch or exploit. I can be punted off the edge therefore it makes sense that the mobs can also be thrown off. NWO's dungeons just seem very inconsistent with regards to when throwing is possible and recommended and when it is considered exploitative.
RIP Neverwinter 26/06/2014
0
seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I've legitimately done that boss on a few occasions. She's a ***** but my last run we got her down with 3 of us (The CW and healer left, we were all using the tiefling heal companions so we had some higher level NPCs keeping us alive). The fights are not 'too hard' if you've gotten all the gear possible from the last tier - the fights are annoying and stupid for the rewards they give. You need to out gear the 8.3k they require to hit T2 by hitting around 9k -11k (pref 10 or 11k).
They fixed the glitch people had been using to range her from up top, but people have found yet another glitch to simply range her from somewhere else to complete the dungeon.
Other than the spellplague end boss where we're forced to throw adds between fighting phases (even with everyone 11k GS + we didnt have enough damage to clear them before it resurfaced without CW sing+throw) That means you are in a poor dps party. We don't have to knock off the edges at all. It is easy to have a couple on the boss while the DC keeps everybody alive in the middle and 2 AOE classes burn the adds down. And between ad phases (which is not much) you can help on the boss.
I've managed to down every boss up to CN and MC without glitches. My ***** on the bosses is that they are simple (get out of the red ****) and the main fight mechanic to make things difficult is add control.
Avoid the red **** - CW sing and push/aoe adds, GF/tank type get add attention and kite.
That essentially summed up the fight mechanic for every boss in the game that I've seen so far (as I said, have not seen all bosses in CN and MC though I've visited both) - there's no real challenge to learning a boss in NW. The only real challenge to NW bosses in end game has been learning what the new sweet spot of the week is for glitching a boss now that they fixed an older glitch so that we don't have to deal with the never-ending waves of trash.
I still want to take TripsOfThrymr up on his challenge of legit doing the full dungeons as well - even with my guild being geared enough and capable enough to legit do the bosses they loved to glitch past things.Considering Trips plays with us you will see it from our perspective.
If you did understood trash farming, you'd know that games where it existed, trash dropped very good items and crafting ingredients.
There was no way to get some patterns other than the trash, and some were BoP as well.
So people would farm trash, reset raid, farm trash again, until they got precious epic patterns, which helped immensely in their raid progression.
Also it's OK if somebody cannot kill a boss the first few times. Maybe even a week. Or a month. I LOVE hard bosses. I love bosses that make you cringe and facepalm yourself. They give you a sense of accomplishment when you kill them.
Just give them epic or legendary loot. NOT BLUES...
I used to be a WoW raider back in the day. When people were farming trash in Sunwell we used to laugh at them -- again a real progression guild is doing the dungeon so often we don't need to farm trash, we get it anyways.
I don't see that as a glitch or exploit. I can be punted off the edge therefore it makes sense that the mobs can also be thrown off. NWO's dungeons just seem very inconsistent with regards to when throwing is possible and recommended and when it is considered exploitative.
Zerging (rushing/sprinting, whatever you want to call it) through what would be 7 or 8 pulls minimum and then throwing down a sing/toss is probably not WAI. Neither is jumping over a bunch of rocks and jumping down to get to another camp fire across the map likely to be, same with the run to die at other spawns <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
@seisem2 - I'm still not entirely sure if the pt was trying to dps between the boss's submerges, or if they were simply doing it the way they were taught without questioning what AoE is needed where. I know my TR wasn't capable of doing the DPS needed to those adds (which makes sense, as we are more a single target class). People constantly glitching has made it **** hard for me to really judge how effective my build is as well.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
/Channel_Join NW_Legit_Community to run Dungeons without the exploits
Making trash rewarding isn't such a bad idea and it's easily doable.
I don't agree btw that people exploit because they are too bad to do it legit. It's simply being time-efficient and since killing trash is worthless... there you go. I'd even go as far as saying that the (non-existent) boss-mechanics are even rewarding bad players, bc there isn't much you can do particularly wrong to blow up everything. At some bosses one or two classes have to use specific encounters to be successfully but that's basically it. Not a single boss challenges every member of the party.
Fuminorax maybe, but he has a chance to bleed blue <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> all over the place. That's another big thing: Imbalance. The most challenging bosses don't give the best loot. Sometimes the end boss with the precious loot isn't even the most challenging one. So hey, people try to skip the annoying preceding bosses that drop shi*t. No surprise here.
Karrundax has often been mentioned and it's true. Balancing disaster. Frozen Heart. Balancing disaster. I like Spider and Spellplague a lot in that regard, but the difference in length between these two is remarkably stupid. For T1 my favorite always has been Grey Wolf, but really only played it with my first GF and then never did T1 again so can't say if they changed anything.
It's not an excuse to exploit, but a lot of problems are home made.
That boss is no problem. The only problem on that fight is there is a bug where you randomly will fall through the map. It happened to me last time on my GWF.
But see this is the classic example -- the fights are too hard so therefore we exploit.
Ah so it explains why i have seen people using exploits in epic cloak tower!
I'd say people exploit because this game doesn't punish bad behaviour. When there are rewards but no punishment, involving people with little to no education, it's likely to be completely chaotic.
I just don’t get it!
What’s your problem with those that use “exploit”? play the game the way you enjoy it!
Has anyone here played pen&paper Role Playing Game?
Some people fight for the thrill of battle, others for riches ect!
In real pen and paper when you have a quest it doesn’t matter the how, but if you made it! If you can hide and snipe someone do it! If you are a paladin and want to destroy all the evil in the world straightforward, do it! If you are a rogue and want to reach the commander hidden, do it!
For those that like hard fights, go to CN And put on the greens and fight the beholder!
Why do you care how someone else plays his game?
You think it is unfair to exploit?
If I pay for AD is it unfair?
If I got carried from a 60lvl friend to lvl up is unfair?
If I geared up before or after DD chest= BoP does it matter?
I just don’t get it!
What’s your problem with those that use “exploit”? play the game the way you enjoy it!
Has anyone here played pen&paper Role Playing Game?
Some people fight for the thrill of battle, others for riches ect!
In real pen and paper when you have a quest it doesn’t matter the how, but if you made it! If you can hide and snipe someone do it! If you are a paladin and want to destroy all the evil in the world straightforward, do it! If you are a rogue and want to reach the commander hidden, do it!
For those that like hard fights, go to CN And put on the greens and fight the beholder!
Why do you care how someone else plays his game?
You think it is unfair to exploit?
If I pay for AD is it unfair?
If I got carried from a 60lvl friend to lvl up is unfair?
If I geared up before or after DD chest= BoP does it matter?
PS sorry for my English…
It matters because it's against the spirit of the game, and against the rules.
In PnP you weren't able to jump off a ledge to travel across the map to get to the next respawn, die or do /stuck to get up to the campfire and then high five your buddies.
Its not that it's wrong to exploit - its that the game devs dont want us to and are slowly fixing the exploits.
It matters how someone else plays the game because unless they're full soloing the dungeon they're in, they're forcing their bull**** onto everyone else.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
/Channel_Join NW_Legit_Community to run Dungeons without the exploits
Comments
So basically you want to just zone in and the loot is there in front of you, no mobs, no boss, nothing? Why even bother playing the game.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
Casual gamers and bad players should not be able to get the same level of loot as hardcore and high end players.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
Thats a great question, one i am asking myself everyday.
Now that i got the gear i need, the amount of AD i consider enough for any upcomming patch. I have no reason to play
This is so pathetic... "You garbage exploiters/cheaters/whatever can't hold a candle to our amazing elite PvE skills!" PvE is unchanging, you could program 5 bots to complete any PvE content. The only content in this game that requires thought and reaction is PvP, and your guild doesn't do it lol.
Seriously get off your high horse, completing PvE means nothing, and anyone with a brain can do it without exploits. It just so happens that anyone with a brain also likes to complete repetitive and easy PvE dungeons in as little time as possible, and therefor take the shortest route to the loot.
I can already hear your "No we are just more skilled than anyone else b/c we kill 15 extra trash mobs that you skip" response, so please save it, as there is no skill requirement for PvE, you just have to learn the fight 1 time.
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Lol you are such an elitist ******. "Only people who spend 8 hours a day playing the game should have good gear". Open invitation to your guild for PvP, we will stomp your "Hardcore and High end" player's faces. But you won't accept cause you don't PvP...
LOL probably challenge us to a Legit dungeon clear race hahahaha
We are definitely dominating, and we are always about to win.
Exploit: Using a method to advance against designed parameters.
examples:
1) Glitching a boss so he can't attack you, while you attack him.
2) Making a boss kill itself.
3) Jumping through a map to advance
4) Killing yourself to advance
5) Taking advantage of built in help system
Look if there is nothing you like about the game, to play it legit? Why play? Why contribute to the corrosion of the community? It logically doesn't make sense? Why waste time on something you don't like. Leave like the others who didn't enjoy it did. It's not worth the effort or your time... negativity is corrosive... and spreads like an acrid stench. No one is forcing you to play... or are they? Are you strapped in a chair somewhere.... do you need us to send help!?!?!?
Seriously not fighting for that loot.... destroys your own enjoyment as well as others. Does a sense of accomplishment mean nothing to you guys?
You STILL don't understand the trash in this game is not rewarding and not worth killing. How hard can it be to comprehend such a simple concept?!?
I already exemplified from how in WoW trash can be very rewarding and worth player's time with epic item and epic pattern drops.
So why not in Neverwinter, I ask you?
I have no arguments with the trash not being rewarding... I think drops and random encounters need to be added to the game. However, in another thread someone made a good point when this was brought up... if you can get EPIC drops from trash... people would just start farming the trash and not fighting the bosses.
I think a better idea would be to take away the delve... make the dungeons HARDER / longer... yeah I said it... make a dungeon repeatable every few days (DDO-style)... add random encounters (party ambush MC Style, and mini-bosses) in the levels that CAN drop epic loot, that only spawn in certain areas of the dungeon (multiple diff locations, so if you bypass you will miss a chance at the loot). Make more MC shard-like drop for recipes for crafting in every dungeon. Make it so killing non random mini-bosses unlocks the next area with a key drop etc.
Things like this would make people go to and search the dungeons and avoid any unintended exploits. They would also give more compelling reasons to do them.
It's absolutely OK if people will start trash-farming
However - the drops rates should be small enough - something like 1%. Also, the bosses should have EVEN BETTER loot, so people would have motivation to kill them.
It is ALL about proper motivation.
I completely agree on harder dungeons. But not indiscriminately. Hard modes should exist, with EVEN BETTER loot - again
I also agree areas and bosses should be properly unlocked.
But only and just only after trash is rewarding enough.
I said it before:
It doesn't necessarily have to be just "epix" - trash can drop thematic fashion items for that dungeon, companions (very rarely), special dyes, special enchants... the list could go on and on.
But don't make trash in Epic Dungeon drop worse loot that trash from solo-zone like Sharandar...
Epic Dungeon Bosses should also drop better loot than trash in Sharandar. *cough*MC*cough*
Current content in NW is equivialnt to DDO's Epic Elites - Epics in DDO do not have a 3 day timer.
Though they do apply the concept of a ransack mechanic - 12 or 8 runs will. We do not currently have anything 'end game' that is a raid.
I do not agree with the three day timer, DDO uses that for raids, which we are currently lacking. I say again DDO only has the 3 day timer for raids that are/were end game (Note that TS is a raid that is repeatable as often as you want but it had at one time been 'end game'). All content outside of raids, to include the Epic Elites that you need for certain gear can be repeated as often as you want - but has a ransack (12 or 8 runs before you stop getting loot for every 7 days or so). We do not currently have any content that would warrant the 3 day timers.
Making them longer or harder won't help a **** thing either. Fixing the bosses so they're not trash grinds themselves and adding a bit more to their mechanics would be a good help.
Fixing the dungeons would set it up so people would have more reasons to avoid any unintended exploits.
People will exploit if they have the opportunity to exploit in a game - that includes in DDO. We've seen that (or you should have seen that) given the multiple times we've had broken exploits that have released millions of plat into the game, or tons of tomes that they did not intend for us to have. People exploited because they could - even though they likely knew that DDO is good at banning the exploits.
As for the casual core, most MMOs do now cater more to the casual players - that is to include in DDO. I'll believe hardcore again when I start seeing the penalties and grind that I did in FFXI or EQ1 some of the older MMOs before they started to give out their XP buffs to make the games easier.
Also, games will never intentionally limit it so 'casual only' can get their end game loot - because they want the money that older generation that's grown up out of hardcore have.
I'm a 40yo 6-fig income back in the day pro-gamer (when it didn't pay ****) 40-50hrs work week gamer. I started back on Atari 2600, was ranked 25th in Quake2 - ACOM ranked in top 30 in UT, EQ, Halo, EVE, etc etc gamer. I run 6 toons and will be more when they are more classes... I'm at work now fixing a server outage while *****ing in this forum... I'm a founder, bought Feywild, and I spend money where the F2P and casual gamers gripe the most. ... and I'm saying... MMOs should not be catering to the casual-gamer.
Just saying.
This is a thread about people using exploits in PVE dungeons.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
I understand the concept. The fact that the trash doesn't drop anything worth your time does not mean that it should just be skipped. If trash was to be skipped there would be none... but the game isn't designed that way.
Farming trash only is ridiculous. If you run dungeons enough (like we do), there would be no need to farm trash since you are going to get drops anyways. The only reason you would farm trash is if you weren't able to kill the boss -- which is what it is starting to sound like.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
That boss is no problem. The only problem on that fight is there is a bug where you randomly will fall through the map. It happened to me last time on my GWF.
But see this is the classic example -- the fights are too hard so therefore we exploit.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
If they do hard modes - it's likely it'll be 'throw more trash at the party' I'd be all for hard modes that simply... remove the red **** from the ground and add (for skills with little warning) emotes or something much like games in the past have done. You should be smart enough to see the big dragon taking a deep breath to turn your *** into bbq.
Most groups don't complete anymore (as the OP complained) and that is because many of the current gamers don't have enough brains to understand 'get out of the red stuff, get into the blue stuff'.
I'll say again, their biggest issue is the glitches and exploits exist.
Forcing people to properly unlock bosses through a key drop simply means that they'll play the game fair right up until they get the key drop. Requiring a set number of kills that's high enough to make people clear, but low enough to allow for one or two mobs going into terrain (which is possible without the glitch fest people love to throw in this game - but still potentially allows for throwing if it's a mechanic cryptic wants to allow for) would be ideal.
Until they start putting up enough invisible walls and penalizing the glitching/rewarding those of us willing and looking to actually fight our ways through the dungeons it will continue. ****ty but true.
They need to fix the glitches, jumping and otherwise before they introduce raids. <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> trash spawns in boss fights don't make for a massive challenge and until they add some sort of mechanic other than hit the boss and pray the adds don't overwhelm you before you manage to make it dead, I can't see making harder 'heroics'. (Remember the Epics at the moment ARE what we're suppose to have as heroics - we're just lacking raids).
@cbrowne0329
I'm a combat veteran that enjoys 'casual gaming' - MMOs that cater to casual gaming allowed those of us in the line of fire to login, do what we can while we have time and log off. That's between 12 hour or so shifts (which often bleed over into much more) and using our 'down time' to clean weapons and do all the other odd and end user level maintenance tasks needed for our weapons and gear. I still managed to afford playing the games I enjoy between low pay and long hours. It's a job you need to love to be able to do it.
I was able to login to the various games I've been in while deployed (and yes, since 2003, they've been providing the troops through MWR with that mystical thing called the internet - we now also get wifi in barracks, and have tents with wifi). It meant I got to game while deployed. My guilds at the time got it that I might swear, say afk and not be able to come back. They didn't mind having me in as a 'casual gamer' - and I would count it as casual because it was random when I could get on and how long I could get on (quite often only an hour or so at a time - so I had to make it count). I have the guard pack, and have the feyweild pack, and if you haven't guessed from my sig and the title I have set through the user CP - I also have the founder pack.
I can sympathize with the servers you work on being down too - I got a crash course in IT this last deployment doing signal's job as an MP. My first four months were 12 hour shifts 7 days a week (I still made time to login to DDO) and I was on call 24 hrs a day. I started getting one day a week off once xmas hit - I still had 12 hour shifts the rest of the week. I still filled in my job as an MP - which occasionally made my days 16hr days or better.
Now I hope you're done trying to show off your epeen - it impresses abso-****ing-lutely no one. Just as me bringing up my gaming career while deployed impressed abso-****ing-lutely no one. If you want to ***** about casual-core gamers make a thread for it and keep this one on topic. Thanks.
I also.. never bothered to gripe other than that they need to change DD a bit/improve companions so they're not worthless. Gear is gotten over time through bashing your face on the same instances thousands of times and praying for a drop, the real difference between a casual gamer and a hardcore gamer in MMOs is the casual will take a much longer time to gear up. In Quake and other competition games with ranks it was that they had more time to sink into making it to the higher ranks in ladders, and they were skilled enough to actually make it up those ranked ladders - a casual gamer with less time to sink in won't make the ladders, even if they have sufficient skill to make the ladders because the ladders are going to reward the players with more matches with a higher rank even if their win/lose ratio is the same as a player that is lower in the ladders.
I've legitimately done that boss on a few occasions. She's a ***** but my last run we got her down with 3 of us (The CW and healer left, we were all using the tiefling heal companions so we had some higher level NPCs keeping us alive). The fights are not 'too hard' if you've gotten all the gear possible from the last tier - the fights are annoying and stupid for the rewards they give. You need to out gear the 8.3k they require to hit T2 by hitting around 9k -11k (pref 10 or 11k).
They fixed the glitch people had been using to range her from up top, but people have found yet another glitch to simply range her from somewhere else to complete the dungeon. Other than the spellplague end boss where we're forced to throw adds between fighting phases (even with everyone 11k GS + we didnt have enough damage to clear them before it resurfaced without CW sing+throw) I've managed to down every boss up to CN and MC without glitches. My ***** on the bosses is that they are simple (get out of the red ****) and the main fight mechanic to make things difficult is add control.
Avoid the red **** - CW sing and push/aoe adds, GF/tank type get add attention and kite.
That essentially summed up the fight mechanic for every boss in the game that I've seen so far (as I said, have not seen all bosses in CN and MC though I've visited both) - there's no real challenge to learning a boss in NW. The only real challenge to NW bosses in end game has been learning what the new sweet spot of the week is for glitching a boss now that they fixed an older glitch so that we don't have to deal with the never-ending waves of trash.
I still want to take TripsOfThrymr up on his challenge of legit doing the full dungeons as well - even with my guild being geared enough and capable enough to legit do the bosses they loved to glitch past things.
Nope, you don't understand.
If you did understood trash farming, you'd know that games where it existed, trash dropped very good items and crafting ingredients.
There was no way to get some patterns other than the trash, and some were BoP as well.
So people would farm trash, reset raid, farm trash again, until they got precious epic patterns, which helped immensely in their raid progression.
Also it's OK if somebody cannot kill a boss the first few times. Maybe even a week. Or a month. I LOVE hard bosses. I love bosses that make you cringe and facepalm yourself. They give you a sense of accomplishment when you kill them.
Just give them epic or legendary loot. NOT BLUES...
I don't see that as a glitch or exploit. I can be punted off the edge therefore it makes sense that the mobs can also be thrown off. NWO's dungeons just seem very inconsistent with regards to when throwing is possible and recommended and when it is considered exploitative.
See my replies in Red.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
I used to be a WoW raider back in the day. When people were farming trash in Sunwell we used to laugh at them -- again a real progression guild is doing the dungeon so often we don't need to farm trash, we get it anyways.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
Zerging (rushing/sprinting, whatever you want to call it) through what would be 7 or 8 pulls minimum and then throwing down a sing/toss is probably not WAI. Neither is jumping over a bunch of rocks and jumping down to get to another camp fire across the map likely to be, same with the run to die at other spawns <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
@seisem2 - I'm still not entirely sure if the pt was trying to dps between the boss's submerges, or if they were simply doing it the way they were taught without questioning what AoE is needed where. I know my TR wasn't capable of doing the DPS needed to those adds (which makes sense, as we are more a single target class). People constantly glitching has made it **** hard for me to really judge how effective my build is as well.
I don't agree btw that people exploit because they are too bad to do it legit. It's simply being time-efficient and since killing trash is worthless... there you go. I'd even go as far as saying that the (non-existent) boss-mechanics are even rewarding bad players, bc there isn't much you can do particularly wrong to blow up everything. At some bosses one or two classes have to use specific encounters to be successfully but that's basically it. Not a single boss challenges every member of the party.
Fuminorax maybe, but he has a chance to bleed blue <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> all over the place. That's another big thing: Imbalance. The most challenging bosses don't give the best loot. Sometimes the end boss with the precious loot isn't even the most challenging one. So hey, people try to skip the annoying preceding bosses that drop shi*t. No surprise here.
Karrundax has often been mentioned and it's true. Balancing disaster. Frozen Heart. Balancing disaster. I like Spider and Spellplague a lot in that regard, but the difference in length between these two is remarkably stupid. For T1 my favorite always has been Grey Wolf, but really only played it with my first GF and then never did T1 again so can't say if they changed anything.
It's not an excuse to exploit, but a lot of problems are home made.
Ah so it explains why i have seen people using exploits in epic cloak tower!
I'd say people exploit because this game doesn't punish bad behaviour. When there are rewards but no punishment, involving people with little to no education, it's likely to be completely chaotic.
What’s your problem with those that use “exploit”? play the game the way you enjoy it!
Has anyone here played pen&paper Role Playing Game?
Some people fight for the thrill of battle, others for riches ect!
In real pen and paper when you have a quest it doesn’t matter the how, but if you made it! If you can hide and snipe someone do it! If you are a paladin and want to destroy all the evil in the world straightforward, do it! If you are a rogue and want to reach the commander hidden, do it!
For those that like hard fights, go to CN And put on the greens and fight the beholder!
Why do you care how someone else plays his game?
You think it is unfair to exploit?
If I pay for AD is it unfair?
If I got carried from a 60lvl friend to lvl up is unfair?
If I geared up before or after DD chest= BoP does it matter?
PS sorry for my English…
It matters because it's against the spirit of the game, and against the rules.
In PnP you weren't able to jump off a ledge to travel across the map to get to the next respawn, die or do /stuck to get up to the campfire and then high five your buddies.
Its not that it's wrong to exploit - its that the game devs dont want us to and are slowly fixing the exploits.
It matters how someone else plays the game because unless they're full soloing the dungeon they're in, they're forcing their bull**** onto everyone else.