Why do people exploit?

mehguy138

BECAUSE THEY HATE THESE DUNGEONS. Sorry for being upset, but recently I leveled a new character - Sentinel specced GWF, completed to build T1 items, reached 11.2k GS and decided to actually try to run T2s. I did it before, a lot of times, as a CW, GF and a cleric. Was running FH (as a GF mostly) and Karru, if you play since open beta, you know why. Then I took a break for like 2 months. Now, I haven't completed a single T2 for 4 days.

People exploit, because there's only 2 things you do in these dungeons - run out of red areas and spam all the same abilities. There is no tactics. Saying this game's boss fights have tactics is like saying that tactics in soccer is to punch the ball and run. Boss fights are frustrating and hard, unless your gear is 2 times above the requirement level.

GS...It means nothing. I met a CW and a rogue in FH and SP group respectively, they were above 10k GS. They were braindead. They didn't know their abilities, they didn't realize WHAT THE HELL THEY DO. And THIS IS the problem, the problem, that average player CAN'T complete those. I myself MMORPG gamer with 8 years experience, and I find dungeons in this game are the hardest by far. Because there's no tactics. You can't tell "Hey, first you must stun the adds, then activate the gates, then hide behind the wall, then burst the boss down, then over," and a player, while doing what you said, has a success. Here it's just about luck and having gear 2 times above the requirement level as I mentioned before. Adds are kited or tanked in astral shield, rogue kills the boss, GWF is forgotten for being useless. Repeat until your eyes bleed.

tl;dr Add tactics to these dungeons already, or make epic mode easier with all BoP items, then add a Heroic mode for people, who farm these for gear to sell with BoE items.
P.S. Sentinel GWF 11.2k GS is looking for a guild, old Mindflayer (won't be important in a few hours), Sam Carter. Bad English speaker, not that good geared but I really wanna reach that T2 DD chest

sasheria

Why people exploit? Because it is allowed (not fixed) and it is easier to do. People usually will find the easiest and fastest way to do things.

There are VERY few people who are willing to do the hard way.

i.e. If you can earn $1000 by standing in the street for 1 hour (just standing) or earn $1000 by digging a ditch for 4 hours, what would you do? (note: you get the same $1000 cash with no strings attached) same thing with dungeons, you get the loot by spending 30 minutes using exploits (or less time) vs hours with normal play and play against broken mechanics.

bioshrike

People exploit because it results in the most number of runs per hour, which in turn results in the most number of epic drops, which in turn makes them richer or better equipped. Saying that it's because dungeons are badly designed, or they don't want to kill adds is trying to excuse the behavior, which is incorrect. There is no "valid" excuse for cheating - people just try to rationalize why *they* feel cheating is ok...

aargos

People exploit because dungeons are badly designed and they don't want to kill adds....The add mechanic to increase dificulty is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>...rewards are minimal and its NOT FUN TO DO....so you exploit,you get your reward and move on to things that are more pleasant to do within the game....People exploit? Games fault... Want people to stop exploiting?? fix the game....

tripsofthrymr

mehguy138 wrote: »

People exploit, because there's only 2 things you do in these dungeons - run out of red areas and spam all the same abilities. There is no tactics.

As a GF I have different abilities selected based on the specific fight or phase of the dungeon. The final boss in Karru requires a different strategy than the final boss in FH (just to name examples).

Parties that coordinate use of abilities do far better than parties that do not.

mehguy138 wrote: »

Boss fights are frustrating and hard, unless your gear is 2 times above the requirement level.

In my experience, that depends. My GF got his T2 stuff by doing T2 dungeons, not on the AH. Only in ToS could I not find anyone to run it legitimately (man do I wish they would fix that boss suicide bug), but I did complete it in a group with my DC. Every other T2 was a regular win with a reasonably-geared group that knew their characters and knew teamwork.

mehguy138 wrote: »

GS...It means nothing. I met a CW and a rogue in FH and SP group respectively, they were above 10k GS. They were braindead. They didn't know their abilities, they didn't realize WHAT THE HELL THEY DO. And THIS IS the problem, the problem, that average player CAN'T complete those.

Agree. I was in CN with a CW that had never even heard of Singularity. GS is only a very general indicator.

I would not want to play a game where the hardest content is easy for average players. Where would the challenge and fun be for above-average players?

mehguy138 wrote: »

You can't tell "Hey, first you must stun the adds, then activate the gates, then hide behind the wall, then burst the boss down, then over," and a player, while doing what you said, has a success.

You actually do win MC (without cheating) by using a similar tactic. In some dungeons, it is very important to take out healers before other ads. Overall, though, I agree that tactics are not as important as they should be.

mehguy138 wrote: »

GWF is forgotten for being useless.

GWF's in my guild greatly out-DPS a good TR while helping in a variety of ways that a TR cannot. After the server merge tonight you are very welcome to come do a DD run with us. We have some amazing GWFs and the people are very friendly and helpful. Also, we don't use any cheats/exploits. Look me up in game @TripsOfThrymr

bioshrike

aargos wrote: »

People exploit because dungeons are badly designed and they don't want to kill adds....The add mechanic to increase dificulty is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>...rewards are minimal and its NOT FUN TO DO....so you exploit,you get your reward and move on to things that are more pleasant to do within the game....People exploit? Games fault... Want people to stop exploiting?? fix the game....

Wrong and wrong. If you do not or cannot play legitimately, then DO NOT PLAY. There is no, I repeat NO acceptable excuse to cheat. Why is this so hard to grasp?

tripsofthrymr

aargos wrote: »

People exploit because dungeons are badly designed and they don't want to kill adds....The add mechanic to increase dificulty is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>...rewards are minimal and its NOT FUN TO DO....so you exploit,you get your reward and move on to things that are more pleasant to do within the game....People exploit? Games fault... Want people to stop exploiting?? fix the game....

The vast majority of people that I meet exploiting do it because everybody else is exploiting, and have never even cleared the "skipped" content once themselves. Many of them would be incapable of clearing it.

I buy your reasoning for the small number of people who have "been there/done that" (but then, they should already have that gear...). I challenge everyone in the game that has only skipped content to go back and try and complete it correctly once (ToS boss anyone?).

If anyone wants to PM me in game @TripsOfThrymr you're welcome to come do a run with my guild. We only do legit runs (and enjoy doing them).

sasheria

bioshrike wrote: »

Wrong and wrong. If you do not or cannot play legitimately, then DO NOT PLAY. There is no, I repeat NO acceptable excuse to cheat. Why is this so hard to grasp?

It would be cheating if the Devs consider it a cheat. Many "exploits" are consider lucky. Some dungeon exploits like knocking off a bridge is ok, running to next safe zone is allowed. How is that "exploit"

We, the players, deems as exploit because it is a shortcut. As long it is allowed in the system, people will continue to use it.

It is like life, people will take short cuts and such as long it is allowed by law. There are smaller group of people who are willing to take it further when it is NOT allowed by law and sometimes they get caught, and some don't.

tripsofthrymr

bioshrike wrote: »

There is no, I repeat NO acceptable excuse to cheat. Why is this so hard to grasp?

Yes, you are responsible for your own decisions. You have free will, and you have your own moral compass.

xilinear

Because, the dungeons are....kill adds...then kill more...them some more....and when you reach finally the boss....guess what....more adds

diogene0

People who don't enjoy this game cheat. It's a bit challenging, not that hard, and yes it requires tactics but it's mostly which encounters you're going to use for a specific boss fight. When i play my CW in FH i use at least 12 different encounter powers, depending on our progression inside the dungeon.

I'm sorry you haven't been able to save the run when you played your dungeon, but i can assure you the game is far from being hard. People cheat then they never learn to play and complain the game is too hard, because when they can't exploit they're completely clueless... Might be hard to hear but if you don't play the game the way it's intended to be played you will NEVER learn your class and will always suck and complain.

And if you don't like killing NPCs, lol... Don't play a MMO except my little poney online.

cbrowne0329

When I first started all I did was do dungeons the legit way. My TR IS the only toon that ran every dungeon legit and got his Swash set the legit way.

That being said... since the opening up of the servers all I have met is exploiters. I can't stand doing dungeons anymore... I actually like competing for the most kills... I don't even mind the add mechanic.

Now, I run in to groups that want to exploit EVERYTHING! It's boring... yeah you get your gear faster... but then what? Dungeons are not "badly" designed... the designs are generally cool.... they ARE buggy as hell!

Now just remember... there are a few clans out there that spend HUNDREDS of hours trying to find these exploits! Which I couldn't imagine doing... but I guess that's what's fun for them.... I just wish they would keep these exploits to themselves. now the obvious exploits like dying underneath/near a campfire and releasing to it.... THIS needs to be fixed! GM stuck -> FIX IT!

Add more random encounters to the dungeons like in MC (well sort of random)... but adding events like and fixing the GLARING bugs like the campfire... would make the dungeons more interesting.

I agree 100% with others that most exploiters suck <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> because all they know how to do is exploit... then get mad when people don't know how/or want to cheat. These people, who can't do a legit boss fight if the boss laid down and said, "You get first hit!"

PLEASE I beg of you! Find another game! You have all of your ill-gotten gear... Now away with you!

tripsofthrymr

xilinear wrote: »

Because, the dungeons are....kill adds...then kill more...them some more....and when you reach finally the boss....guess what....more adds

Fortunately "more interesting boss fight mechanics" are on the way in Module 2. Can't wait to see what that means.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/09/25/neverwinters-velasquez-on-lockboxes-foundry-and-module-2/

bioshrike

tripsofthrymr wrote: »

Fortunately "more interesting boss fight mechanics" are on the way in Module 2. Can't wait to see what that means.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/09/25/neverwinters-velasquez-on-lockboxes-foundry-and-module-2/

Bosses that scale vertical walls and use holes in the map to skip player encounters... they don't want to deal with us, either...

seisem2

xilinear wrote: »

Because, the dungeons are....kill adds...then kill more...them some more....and when you reach finally the boss....guess what....more adds

Name 1 RPG that you have played where dungeons don't have adds on the way to the boss.

xilinear

seisem2 wrote: »

Name 1 RPG that you have played where dungeons don't have adds on the way to the boss.

I have never seen an RPG where there is this amount of adds in a dungeon. It's like the whole design concept of this game is the idea that spawning adds continuously is a good game mechanic...

sasheria

seisem2 wrote: »

Name 1 RPG that you have played where dungeons don't have adds on the way to the boss.

I think the key is controlled adds (proper waves and such) even Tokyo's raid for TSW (The Secret World) adds made sense. There is a stream of adds that anyone can handle (even healer type) while the main tanks are holding aggro of the boss.

I think many players like the idea of "specific mechanics" for each boss type. Even if the boss has like 6-7 type of attack, it could be semi predictable with signal, words, or action and players can react accordingly. Ironically, many people can't handle the chaos well (hence my personal opinion that PvP/PvE combo type game doesn't do as well as pure PvP type game. It draws different kind of people)

bioshrike

Admittedly, there are steps that need to be taken w/ boss encounters to reduce frustration. For instance, place a reasonable limit on the number of adds that can be present at any given time - if the current ones have not been cleared, then no more can spawn. Adds should also have clear points of entry, which can be blocked or destroyed, in order to limit them from coming in. Lastly, the boss should have to get those reinforcements from *somewhere* - namely the previous dungeon you just went through. If your team is very thorough and completely clears the dungeon, then adds in the boss fight should be practically nonexistent.

seisem2

sasheria wrote: »

I think the key is controlled adds (proper waves and such) even Tokyo's raid for TSW (The Secret World) adds made sense. There is a stream of adds that anyone can handle (even healer type) while the main tanks are holding aggro of the boss.

I think many players like the idea of "specific mechanics" for each boss type. Even if the boss has like 6-7 type of attack, it could be semi predictable with signal, words, or action and players can react accordingly. Ironically, many people can't handle the chaos well (hence my personal opinion that PvP/PvE combo type game doesn't do as well as pure PvP type game. It draws different kind of people)

Every single boss has a specific mechanic with adds. Every boss can be dealt with a proper party that does not cheat as well.

The #1 thing I tell people is to fix their defense. You want to see adds go from ouch to lol, just get that defense to 2k and watch the difference. I know because one of my mains is a healer and I only die if it is a full wipe, which with our guild never really happens.

seisem2

bioshrike wrote: »

Admittedly, there are steps that need to be taken w/ boss encounters to reduce frustration. For instance, place a reasonable limit on the number of adds that can be present at any given time - if the current ones have not been cleared, then no more can spawn. Adds should also have clear points of entry, which can be blocked or destroyed, in order to limit them from coming in. Lastly, the boss should have to get those reinforcements from *somewhere* - namely the previous dungeon you just went through. If your team is very thorough and completely clears the dungeon, then adds in the boss fight should be practically nonexistent.

Exactly. People are so used to skipping the content they panic when it comes to the adds.

seisem2

xilinear wrote: »

I have never seen an RPG where there is this amount of adds in a dungeon. It's like the whole design concept of this game is the idea that spawning adds continuously is a good game mechanic...

Oh I guess you didn't play Diablo 3 -- that game had 10x the amount of trash on the way to the boss.

trollgre

bec DD event is so limited
if you got disconnected while doing 1hour+ dungeons and the DD event is no longer active you lose chest

pers3phone

seisem2 wrote: »

Name 1 RPG that you have played where dungeons don't have adds on the way to the boss.

I can name a few dungeons with VERY little amount of trash, and trash also dropped epics items and epic crafting patterns or components... and so on. I'll stick to WoW since most know it. It's OK if we have trash, but not so much.

- Magtheridon's Lair. Trash takes 5 minutes, basically 3-4 packs.
- Onyxia's lair -5 minutes of trash to boss
- The Eye: 10 mins of trash to boss.
- Karazhan: 5 mins of trash to boss, however this has more trash between bosses
- Dragon Soul: 3 mins of trash to boss, 5 mins of trash between bosses
- Baradin's Hold: almost no trash.

I could really go on and on.

Thing is, it doesn't matter if we have to kill trash - if it's rewarding enough.

Make trash drop epic crafting ingredients and we're set. I remember clearly in WoW we did trash-only farming raids - because it was worth it.

Trash in NWO drops <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Not worth my time. So why not skip it whenever possible.

slayorian

I think if the trash at least dropped enough enchants to be worth killing them with a party of 5 then it'd be a different story. Most people would probably want to clear them all if they dropped 5-10 times the amount of gold/enchants. Currently, you're better off soloing puny trash in sharandar for drops than the ultra pumped trash in T2s. Which, should not be the case.

Another annoying thing - the secret/optional bosses drop pure garbage.

colonelwing

The people (kiddies) are exploiting, because their parents haven't taught them how to behave properly. They skipped school way too often and are uneducated. If one sheep gets away with it, the entire herd is going to follow. And since EVERY kewl kid does it... the herd keeps on growing.


The problem is on an educational level. Certain countries don't even offer any type of education, at all.

arontimes

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned how the tier 2 dungeons are impossible to complete legitimately at the advertised gear score levels. Show me a group that can do Frozen Heart or Caverns of Karrundax or other tier 2 dungeons at 8300 (IIRC) gear score and I will retract my statement. Castle Never at 9200 gear score? I don't think so.

seisem2

pers3phone wrote: »

I can name a few dungeons with VERY little amount of trash, and trash also dropped epics items and epic crafting patterns or components... and so on. I'll stick to WoW since most know it. It's OK if we have trash, but not so much.

- Magtheridon's Lair. Trash takes 5 minutes, basically 3-4 packs.
- Onyxia's lair -5 minutes of trash to boss
- The Eye: 10 mins of trash to boss.
- Karazhan: 5 mins of trash to boss, however this has more trash between bosses
- Dragon Soul: 3 mins of trash to boss, 5 mins of trash between bosses
- Baradin's Hold: almost no trash.

I could really go on and on.

Thing is, it doesn't matter if we have to kill trash - if it's rewarding enough.

Make trash drop epic crafting ingredients and we're set. I remember clearly in WoW we did trash-only farming raids - because it was worth it.

Trash in NWO drops <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. Not worth my time. So why not skip it whenever possible.

I said name a game where there are no adds on the way to the boss -- not name old WoW dungeons. Besides, back when we played WoW, only low end players would have to farm trash in raids. If you played in a high end raiding guild, it wasn't necessary to farm trash because you would get it anyways while doing the dungeon. They don't need to add trash farming to this game.

cloud990pl

seisem2 wrote: »

Name 1 RPG that you have played where dungeons don't have adds on the way to the boss.

That doesn't mean NWO must be the same, after all it's supposed to be D&D; game that uses "imagination"
Lets take a look at Hrimnir, boss would be much more likeable if boss/adds mechanics were diffrent:
-Hrimnir sits on his throne and sends his minions to fight players (at begining 2 golems and 5 of thoose lesser mobs, at 50% of HP 4 golems and 8 lesser mobs and at 25% 5 golems and 10 lesser mobs ). He stands up after golems are dead.
-Hrimnir can still drop stalactites while sitting (but not as many)
-sharpshooters remain with timer
-up to 3 wolves spawn each 10% boss HP is burned
-Hrimnir can hit his minions
-adding stalactite that can be targeted and dropped on boss/adds
-give boss a bit more HP (+ ~25%) so fight will last longer

seisem2

trollgre wrote: »

bec DD event is so limited
if you got disconnected while doing 1hour+ dungeons and the DD event is no longer active you lose chest

They fixed this. As long as you zone back in with the same character you still get the chest.

seisem2

cloud990pl wrote: »

That doesn't mean NWO must be the same, after all it's supposed to be D&D; game that uses "imagination"
Lets take a look at Hrimnir, boss would be much more likeable if boss mechanics were diffrent:
-Hrimnir sits on his throne and sends his minions to fight players (at begining 2 golems and 5 of thoose lesser mobs, at 50% of HP 4 golems and 8 lesser mobs and at 25% 5 golems and 10 lesser mobs ). He stands up after golems are dead.
-Hrimnir can still drop stalactites while sitting (but not as many)
-sharpshooters remain with timer
-up to 3 wolves spawn each 10% boss HP is burned
-Hrimnir can hit his minions
-adding stalactite that can be targeted and dropped on boss/adds
-give boss a bit more HP (+ ~25%) so fight will last longer

Outside of the lore, this game couldn't be further from a real D&D game. The closest PC game you will find to a D&D experience would be Baldur's Gate -- and yes that game has trash.

seisem2

arontimes wrote: »

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned how the tier 2 dungeons are impossible to complete legitimately at the advertised gear score levels. Show me a group that can do Frozen Heart or Caverns of Karrundax or other tier 2 dungeons at 8300 (IIRC) gear score and I will retract my statement. Castle Never at 9200 gear score? I don't think so.

That is the minimum gear score to get in, not the required to complete it. In any progression based game (like NWO), the more times you play, the further you get, the better gear you get, and the easier it becomes.