I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned how the tier 2 dungeons are impossible to complete legitimately at the advertised gear score levels. Show me a group that can do Frozen Heart or Caverns of Karrundax or other tier 2 dungeons at 8300 (IIRC) gear score and I will retract my statement. Castle Never at 9200 gear score? I don't think so.
So when a box game mentions that you have to be 6 yo or more to play the game means you must be 6 to play it? lol?
This limit is there to help people who want to carry a friend or a guild member through a dungeon, or for good players enjoying some challenge. If you play all the T1 dungeons you should reach 10k GS, which is more than you'll ever need to play anything in this game.
Outside of the lore, this game couldn't be further from a real D&D game. The closest PC game you will find to a D&D experience would be Baldur's Gate -- and yes that game has trash.
That's not an answer or solution to trash problem.
You can't just say "it's okay for it to be here since it's everywhere else" and leave it as it is, developers want (and probably are reading) players opinions to improve game.
If all of us will just sit down and ignore any gameplay problem that isn't bug/exploit/abuse we will end up with just another generic MMO.
And remember: game is like painting, it's limited only by imagination and abilities of a painter and both can be improved over time
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seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
That's not an answer or solution to trash problem.
You can't just say "it's okay for it to be here since it's everywhere else" and leave it as it is, developers want (and probably are reading) players opinions to improve game.
If all of us will just sit down and ignore any gameplay problem that isn't bug/exploit/abuse we will end up with just another generic MMO.
And remember: game is like painting, it's limited only by imagination and abilities of a painter and both can be improved over time
The trash is 80% of the dungeon. It's one of the things that you learn on your way to the boss. The same mobs there have the same mechanics and damages on the boss fights. The trash is not the problem. The exploiting and cheating is the problem.
That's not an answer or solution to trash problem.
You can't just say "it's okay for it to be here since it's everywhere else" and leave it as it is, developers want (and probably are reading) players opinions to improve game.
If all of us will just sit down and ignore any gameplay problem that isn't bug/exploit/abuse we will end up with just another generic MMO.
And remember: game is like painting, it's limited only by imagination and abilities of a painter and both can be improved over time
If the devs were caring about every single complaint about this game, a dungeon would be:
- a 5 mins run to a campfire with maybe 2-3 minions on the way, then die (killing the 3 minions takes 'too much time').
- you can get a new spell: bug the boss inside the wall. The boss is dragged inside the wall. You can kill it safely.
- The GWFs (because we "need" to make them more "powerful") get a new spell: bug any add near the boss. With this spell, the GWF can freeze any add forever.
- CWs get a 10000% damage resistance debuff, because hey, the boss which is stuck inside the geometry still takes too much time to kill.
- DCs have a new spell! God mode. 15s CD, lasts 20s and when active, the party takes no damage. This spell can be used in macro mode.
- The end chest can be looted indefinitely, ad nauseum, and it always gives you the BiS equipment.
...
Fortunately the devs don't listen to every single weird ideas on the forums and do their own thing. Some like it some others don't, but that's how entertainment works.
Because man is a low down dirty cheater in it's nature, trying to benefit of everything that can be cheated, stolen or otherwise be gained by doing it the "easy" way since at the beginning of time.
I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned how the tier 2 dungeons are impossible to complete legitimately at the advertised gear score levels. Show me a group that can do Frozen Heart or Caverns of Karrundax or other tier 2 dungeons at 8300 (IIRC) gear score and I will retract my statement. Castle Never at 9200 gear score? I don't think so.
CN is actually completable at around 9.5 to 10k GS. It's just...very slow.
Pretty sure that Karru bosses 1 and 2 or the spider queen wouldn't be completable near the min GS. Toning these two down a bit wouldn't be amiss (as in less red floor in Karru and replace some of the blademasters with spiders in Spider Queen). Karrundax himself probably needs a buff.
FH shouldn't be hard for any coordinated party(I think it's the easiest of the big four T2 dungeons actually, I just avoid it because of the permaspawn add bug on the final boss), Spell is very variable, depending on how intelligent your TR and tank are in the final fight.
MC is doable at 10kish GS as well.
Can't imagine anyone finishing epic DV at 8.3 to 9k though.
Oh I guess you didn't play Diablo 3 -- that game had 10x the amount of trash on the way to the boss.
I like how to you identify Diablo 3 with RPG because very few would agree with that (I am not here to judge), besides, the point in Diablo 3 is to kill masses and masses of demons and champion packs, nobody cares about the bosses. But that is beside the point and quite frankly totally out of context, trash in the way to the bosses is expect, its part of the "dungeon art". The point I am trying to make is that, that's what neverwinter dungeons are...all trash and adds. The bosses encounters in Neverwinter (beside the latest Feywild Dungeon) are just an overtuned adds fest, no mechanics, no strategy or coordination is required. The bosses themselves seem to have an AI below that of a sewer rat, put a TR on them and just ignore.
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seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I like how to you identify Diablo 3 with RPG because very few would agree with that (I am not here to judge), besides, the point in Diablo 3 is to kill masses and masses of demons and champion packs, nobody cares about the bosses. But that is beside the point and quite frankly totally out of context, trash in the way to the bosses is expect, its part of the "dungeon art". The point I am trying to make is that, that's what neverwinter dungeons are...all trash and adds. The bosses encounters in Neverwinter (beside the latest Feywild Dungeon) are just an overtuned adds fest, no mechanics, no strategy or coordination is required. The bosses themselves seem to have an AI below that of a sewer rat, put a TR on them and just ignore.
I just used it as an example. Any RPG could be used as an example of having to fight through mobs to get to the boss in a dungeon.
There are many encounters on many of the bosses. Is it really needed for me to go through each T2 and go through the boss mechanics? Cause it is way more than just Adds.
Is it really needed for me to go through each T2 and go through the boss mechanics? Cause it is way more than just Adds.
No need to, we probably wouldn't agree and that is beside what this thread is about. No need to rehearse you favorite quote " In the world of Elite Players we do this and that...." :-).
The answer to the original question of why people exploit is obvious...poor buggy dungeon design and poorly designed bosses encounters. If you like spending time killing trash, and having fun doing it, this could be the perfect game for you.
I will probably get banned from the forums for saying anything bad about the game, but the truth of the matter is, if the dungeons were well designed, people would not exploit because there is nothing there to exploit.
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seisem2Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
No need to, we probably wouldn't agree and that is beside what this thread is about. No need to rehearse you favorite quote " In the world of Elite Players we do this and that...." :-). It's a true quote Game is much different when you play at a higher level.
The answer to the original question of why people exploit is obvious...poor buggy dungeon design and poorly designed bosses encounters. If you like spending time killing trash, and having fun doing it, this could be the perfect game for you.
I will probably get banned from the forums for saying anything bad about the game, but the truth of the matter is, if the dungeons were well designed, people would not exploit because there is nothing there to exploit.
The dungeons aren't badly designed. People cheat them because the content is too hard. When have you seen people advertising for cheating in T1? They only do it in T2 and above because that content is too hard for them to complete.
I will probably get banned from the forums for saying anything bad about the game, but the truth of the matter is, if the dungeons were well designed, people would not exploit because there is nothing there to exploit.
There is indeed something wrong with this game. Most of it has been developed when it was only a co op RPG, and definitely not a MMO. It became a MMO maybe one year ago, so they had to rush to make some MMO stuff, but the dungeons were there, with their poorly designed quests (just kill the last boss and the quest is done), with holes everywhere between invisible walls, no anti cheating system...
Yes there's something wrong about dungeons but it's not encounters or boss fights. It's just not an MMO enough. There has to be at some point an anti cheat system. I don't even understand WHY it's possible to move your character outside of the legitimate playing area, WHY boss pop loots when they have dealt less damage per second they should have done, WHY there is no anti cheat spells on boss allowing them to wipe the entire party when a boss or a big NPC with significant HPs is taking damage but can't return fire, or when it cannot make a move anymore, WHY is the AI jumping into deadly areas to catch players using the geometry to make NPCs do a deadly jump... Yes all these things are badly needed. Eventually it should be added to the game, if the devs care about developing a MMO and not just a cheating fest.
The dungeons aren't badly designed. People cheat them because the content is too hard. When have you seen people advertising for cheating in T1? They only do it in T2 and above because that content is too hard for them to complete.
I have played (pugged via random queue) the epic cloak tower for the lulz today. I've seen people using exploits, like suiciding the secret boss. Made me laugh hard. People cheat in this game because that's what they want to do. Cheating is their rule. Yes, this game has a great success, it managed to attract dedicated exploiter's guilds, the worst scum any MMO can get.
The dungeons aren't badly designed. People cheat them because the content is too hard. When have you seen people advertising for cheating in T1? They only do it in T2 and above because that content is too hard for them to complete.
I have written this somewhere else, T1 is better designed than T2, in that there is little room for exploit and skipping content. Still, there are many exploits in T1, If you were here in beta weeks and open beta and had to do T1 in blues and greens as freshly dinged 60 with an empty auction house, T1 was a challenge, it still is, try doing it in greens and max R4 enchants. Now, T1 dungeons are are not worth the "effort of exploiting" or even running since the gear is dirt cheap and getting 10k+ GS is dirt cheap.
You have to also understand that exploiting for many, if not the majority, is not a means of defeating a boss, it is a means of maximizing boss kills / DD time. Many people that play legit think that people that exploit lack skills and that they are the true elite. People that exploit are fed up of running the same content again again and want to make some cash in the best possible time frame. If anything they are the smart ones :-).
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bioshrikeMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,729Arc User
edited October 2013
^^^ Sounds like a rationalization for cheating, to me...
<::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::::)xxxo <::::::::::::)xxxxxxxx(:::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> oxxx(::::::::::::::> "Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
To know the the answer you must un-know the answer in order to complete the completeness of knowing the answer.
Adds or no adds which do you prefer? Which do you require? That is the answer.
The tract is already known. It is infinite but you are merely an instance. Therefore, you can only reread the tract; a performance.
Performance: In it, you will find the author's intent. In you, you'll will find meaning. Meaning is time, time is understanding. Understanding is the track to complete completeness. But in order to be complete in completely knowing the answer you must not know the answer. Do you know the answer?
To know the the answer you must un-know the answer in order to complete the completeness of knowing the answer.
Adds or no adds which do you prefer? Which do you require? That is the answer.
The tract is already known. It is infinite but you are merely an instance. Therefore, you can only reread the tract; a performance.
Performance: In it, you will find the author's intent. In you, you'll will find meaning. Meaning is time, time is understanding. Understanding is the track to complete completeness. But in order to be complete in completely knowing the answer you must not know the answer. Do you know the answer?
If yes, then you are not ready. Are you ready?
kiflom!
Yes, but code is an exploit unto itself, we are merely users.
Dad says people cheat because unethical behavior is promoted nowdays. No real penalties.. Always the easy way..always someone elses fault, etc.. Even companies turn a blind eye for profit. Kinda like steroids..people who love the sport and greedy, gotta have ones.
Wrong and wrong. If you do not or cannot play legitimately, then DO NOT PLAY. There is no, I repeat NO acceptable excuse to cheat. Why is this so hard to grasp?
You can argue all day if you want, but it's simply a stance that you hold so don't act self righteous about it. You act as though the system is perfect and that the rules must be followed, or else don't play. I don't buy that, and I don't buy into the twisted justification that I get from posts like yours that tend to always side with the mechanics over the concerns of others. Sorry, but no thanks.
Dungeons are knitted together with X amount of bosses and hundreds of adds. It says something when about 75% of groups want to either run large amounts of the dungeon or do some sort of exploit simply to save time. I only really bother with Pirate King, FH and Karr and even then the two latter dungeons can be a headache. Dungeons are far too lengthy with no real tactics and often end in disaster for the reasons above, and other poor dungeon mechanics like not being able to find another member.
I just go along with whatever the group wants to do these days. If it saves an hour that would be otherwise spent killing adds and risking the chance of someone bailing due to boredom or frustration, then yeah, I'll gladly bolt past a few enemies to the next campfire.
The dungeon system needs to be reworked to a degree. Anyone who argues this is sleeping, imho.
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pers3phoneBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
The dungeons aren't badly designed. People cheat them because the content is too hard. When have you seen people advertising for cheating in T1? They only do it in T2 and above because that content is too hard for them to complete.
You got your examples and reasoning about why nobody want to clear UNREWARDING trash. I'm telling you again:
Make trash drop epic craft materials, new patterns of whatever, pieces of a legendary weapon, unique cosmetic items - anything that makes it worthwhile - and people not only will want to kill the trash, they will FARM the trash.
But you still keep on going with the ridiculous thought that OMG the T2s are so hard people skip because they can't do it.
Newsflash:
People (like some I know, don't know for others) skip when it is time efficient, to maximize loot. Humans don't have infinite time, our lives are finite, it's logical we intend to make the most of what we have.
Also you had examples of very popular dungeons&raids from the most popular MMO out there, with rewarding (much fewer) trash compared to NWO, where people killed trash on a normal basis, so it is extremely viable to make farming trash a better proposition than skipping it, because you would not want to miss on things.
But even with these clear arguments, you look so stubborn and uncompromising in your posts, you'll never admit that better solutions are possible and that dungeon design in NWO is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and flawed.
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cbrowne0329Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 293Arc User
I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned how the tier 2 dungeons are impossible to complete legitimately at the advertised gear score levels. Show me a group that can do Frozen Heart or Caverns of Karrundax or other tier 2 dungeons at 8300 (IIRC) gear score and I will retract my statement. Castle Never at 9200 gear score? I don't think so.
As I have said in a previous post... I have completed ALL the dungeons with an appropriate GS and no exploits.. .this "trend" only really started when the opened the game up to the unwashed masses...
stubborn and uncompromising...you'll never admit that better solutions are possible...you had examples of very popular dungeons&raids from the most popular MMO out there, with rewarding trash...so it is extremely viable to make farming trash a better proposition than skipping it... Humans don't have infinite time... it's logical...to make the most of what [they] have...when it is time efficient, to maximize loot.
To understand this trend lets talk about the game design in MMOs.
Currently the goal of said designers is to create things that takes people's time away from them and optimally transfers that into time/$$ for their parent company. Content or Challenge or Actual fun design is simply the last priority of an MMO game.
The sophistication of MMOs with regards to metrics has gotten quite prevalent. So if the metrics do not say that the exploits are affecting their bottom line or in fact exploiting is actually increasing the activity in the game they will stay in the game for lengthy periods of time.
On the player's side why do they exploit? They do so on one hand because at its base we gamers are fighting the designers for our time. Another reason is because MMOs have gone so far away from being about caring or working as a team and have simply become an epeen festival and a hyper competitive environment to get virtual items before another person so you can show off. This hyper competitive addiction to virtual items drives people to want to do things as fast and as often as possible to get these items.
Bottom line is that it is not the gamers fault or the designers fault alone that exploits exist and will continue to exist. They go hand in hand because MMOs have really become a hyper greedy environment and the base design of them not only support the behavior but encourage it. Using an "exploit" to attain a goal in an environment where the house usually wins is pretty much a no brainer and in the business world would be considered smart business.
Now if the many people who complain about exploits want to actually redefine the object and goal of the game and return it to a state in which people communicate with their party member's and remember their names and don't call them cleric or rogue then maybe we can move towards a resolution. In an ideal world I would most definitely like to see MMOs move away from the hyper greedy impatient and impersonal environments they are. Only when that happens will exploits not be common place and only then will there be a chance for truly diverse content because designers will be able to innovate instead of look at metrics and copy paste old systems.
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cbrowne0329Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 293Arc User
edited October 2013
1) When did MMOs become considered casual?
2) Why do casual gamers, who usually want a quick fix even want to play something like an MMO?
I see alot people saying well this/that needs to appeal to the casual gamer? I always interpreted a casual gamer as someone who wants something simple but entertaining, that you can play in 15 mins or less spurts for enjoyment. So a dungeon that requires a recommended of completion time of 45mins is by no means a casual experience. There's DDO, LOTR, SWTOR, EQ1+2, and the list goes on and on... Not one of them could be considered a casual game. Anyrhing that doesn't fall into the above criteria can't really be considered casual.
MMOs have always been the FPS, or FTS, or Combat Fighter for the fantasy "hard-core" nerds. It's never been about the casual gamer. I've said it more than once... there IS nothing casual about learning how to take down an end-boss at the end of a dungeon. You learn, wipe adapt, and learn more.... to eventually success! It's not meant to be that quick fix! With so many games catering to the casual gamer... why do casual gamers even want to play MMOs... something that historically is meant to be a challenge?
Using that as justification to exploit is a cop-out mister 37yo... so says the 40yo SR.Systems Engineer, with an average work week of 50 to 70 hours. My advice is to actually play a casual quick fix game!
And if you've never played a grind MMO... then sir this is not the game for you...
1) When did MMOs become considered casual?
2) Why do casual gamers, who usually want a quick fix even want to play something like an MMO?
I see alot people saying well this/that needs to appeal to the casual gamer? I always interpreted a casual gamer as someone who wants something simple but entertaining, that you can play in 15 mins or less spurts for enjoyment. So a dungeon that requires a recommended of completion time of 45mins is by no means a casual experience. There's DDO, LOTR, SWTOR, EQ1+2, and the list goes on and on... Not one of them could be considered a casual game. Anyrhing that doesn't fall into the above criteria can't really be considered casual.
MMOs have always been the FPS, or FTS, or Combat Fighter for the fantasy "hard-core" nerds. It's never been about the casual gamer. I've said it more than once... there IS nothing casual about learning how to take down an end-boss at the end of a dungeon. You learn, wipe adapt, and learn more.... to eventually success! It's not meant to be that quick fix! With so many games catering to the casual gamer... why do casual gamers even want to play MMOs... something that historically is meant to be a challenge?
Using that as justification to exploit is a cop-out mister 37yo... so says the 40yo SR.Systems Engineer, with an average work week of 50 to 70 hours. My advice is to actually play a casual quick fix game!
And if you've never played a grind MMO... then sir this is not the game for you...
This discussion on morality is moot as cryptic itself is hands off on all questionable methods unless it impacts AH or real money transactions. After all, some people are just 'lucky'.
Comments
So when a box game mentions that you have to be 6 yo or more to play the game means you must be 6 to play it? lol?
This limit is there to help people who want to carry a friend or a guild member through a dungeon, or for good players enjoying some challenge. If you play all the T1 dungeons you should reach 10k GS, which is more than you'll ever need to play anything in this game.
That's not an answer or solution to trash problem.
You can't just say "it's okay for it to be here since it's everywhere else" and leave it as it is, developers want (and probably are reading) players opinions to improve game.
If all of us will just sit down and ignore any gameplay problem that isn't bug/exploit/abuse we will end up with just another generic MMO.
And remember: game is like painting, it's limited only by imagination and abilities of a painter and both can be improved over time
The trash is 80% of the dungeon. It's one of the things that you learn on your way to the boss. The same mobs there have the same mechanics and damages on the boss fights. The trash is not the problem. The exploiting and cheating is the problem.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
If the devs were caring about every single complaint about this game, a dungeon would be:
- a 5 mins run to a campfire with maybe 2-3 minions on the way, then die (killing the 3 minions takes 'too much time').
- you can get a new spell: bug the boss inside the wall. The boss is dragged inside the wall. You can kill it safely.
- The GWFs (because we "need" to make them more "powerful") get a new spell: bug any add near the boss. With this spell, the GWF can freeze any add forever.
- CWs get a 10000% damage resistance debuff, because hey, the boss which is stuck inside the geometry still takes too much time to kill.
- DCs have a new spell! God mode. 15s CD, lasts 20s and when active, the party takes no damage. This spell can be used in macro mode.
- The end chest can be looted indefinitely, ad nauseum, and it always gives you the BiS equipment.
...
Fortunately the devs don't listen to every single weird ideas on the forums and do their own thing. Some like it some others don't, but that's how entertainment works.
And playing by myself since Aug 2009
Godtier: Lifetime Subscriber
Pretty sure that Karru bosses 1 and 2 or the spider queen wouldn't be completable near the min GS. Toning these two down a bit wouldn't be amiss (as in less red floor in Karru and replace some of the blademasters with spiders in Spider Queen). Karrundax himself probably needs a buff.
FH shouldn't be hard for any coordinated party(I think it's the easiest of the big four T2 dungeons actually, I just avoid it because of the permaspawn add bug on the final boss), Spell is very variable, depending on how intelligent your TR and tank are in the final fight.
MC is doable at 10kish GS as well.
Can't imagine anyone finishing epic DV at 8.3 to 9k though.
I like how to you identify Diablo 3 with RPG because very few would agree with that (I am not here to judge), besides, the point in Diablo 3 is to kill masses and masses of demons and champion packs, nobody cares about the bosses. But that is beside the point and quite frankly totally out of context, trash in the way to the bosses is expect, its part of the "dungeon art". The point I am trying to make is that, that's what neverwinter dungeons are...all trash and adds. The bosses encounters in Neverwinter (beside the latest Feywild Dungeon) are just an overtuned adds fest, no mechanics, no strategy or coordination is required. The bosses themselves seem to have an AI below that of a sewer rat, put a TR on them and just ignore.
I just used it as an example. Any RPG could be used as an example of having to fight through mobs to get to the boss in a dungeon.
There are many encounters on many of the bosses. Is it really needed for me to go through each T2 and go through the boss mechanics? Cause it is way more than just Adds.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
No need to, we probably wouldn't agree and that is beside what this thread is about. No need to rehearse you favorite quote " In the world of Elite Players we do this and that...." :-).
The answer to the original question of why people exploit is obvious...poor buggy dungeon design and poorly designed bosses encounters. If you like spending time killing trash, and having fun doing it, this could be the perfect game for you.
I will probably get banned from the forums for saying anything bad about the game, but the truth of the matter is, if the dungeons were well designed, people would not exploit because there is nothing there to exploit.
The dungeons aren't badly designed. People cheat them because the content is too hard. When have you seen people advertising for cheating in T1? They only do it in T2 and above because that content is too hard for them to complete.
Catalina Erantzo - GWF 13.9K GS
<Future> Guild on Dragon - Legit Non Exploit Guild (We are always recruiting great players)
Future Guild Recruitment Thread: http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?475381-lt-Future-gt-Legit-Non-Exploit-Guild-Recruiting
There is indeed something wrong with this game. Most of it has been developed when it was only a co op RPG, and definitely not a MMO. It became a MMO maybe one year ago, so they had to rush to make some MMO stuff, but the dungeons were there, with their poorly designed quests (just kill the last boss and the quest is done), with holes everywhere between invisible walls, no anti cheating system...
Yes there's something wrong about dungeons but it's not encounters or boss fights. It's just not an MMO enough. There has to be at some point an anti cheat system. I don't even understand WHY it's possible to move your character outside of the legitimate playing area, WHY boss pop loots when they have dealt less damage per second they should have done, WHY there is no anti cheat spells on boss allowing them to wipe the entire party when a boss or a big NPC with significant HPs is taking damage but can't return fire, or when it cannot make a move anymore, WHY is the AI jumping into deadly areas to catch players using the geometry to make NPCs do a deadly jump... Yes all these things are badly needed. Eventually it should be added to the game, if the devs care about developing a MMO and not just a cheating fest.
I have played (pugged via random queue) the epic cloak tower for the lulz today. I've seen people using exploits, like suiciding the secret boss. Made me laugh hard. People cheat in this game because that's what they want to do. Cheating is their rule. Yes, this game has a great success, it managed to attract dedicated exploiter's guilds, the worst scum any MMO can get.
I have written this somewhere else, T1 is better designed than T2, in that there is little room for exploit and skipping content. Still, there are many exploits in T1, If you were here in beta weeks and open beta and had to do T1 in blues and greens as freshly dinged 60 with an empty auction house, T1 was a challenge, it still is, try doing it in greens and max R4 enchants. Now, T1 dungeons are are not worth the "effort of exploiting" or even running since the gear is dirt cheap and getting 10k+ GS is dirt cheap.
You have to also understand that exploiting for many, if not the majority, is not a means of defeating a boss, it is a means of maximizing boss kills / DD time. Many people that play legit think that people that exploit lack skills and that they are the true elite. People that exploit are fed up of running the same content again again and want to make some cash in the best possible time frame. If anything they are the smart ones :-).
"Is it better to be feared or respected? I say, is it too much to ask for both?" -Tony Stark
Official NW_Legit_Community Forums
Kiflom brother brother.
To know the the answer you must un-know the answer in order to complete the completeness of knowing the answer.
Adds or no adds which do you prefer? Which do you require? That is the answer.
The tract is already known. It is infinite but you are merely an instance. Therefore, you can only reread the tract; a performance.
Performance: In it, you will find the author's intent. In you, you'll will find meaning. Meaning is time, time is understanding. Understanding is the track to complete completeness. But in order to be complete in completely knowing the answer you must not know the answer. Do you know the answer?
If yes, then you are not ready. Are you ready?
kiflom!
Yes, but code is an exploit unto itself, we are merely users.
You can argue all day if you want, but it's simply a stance that you hold so don't act self righteous about it. You act as though the system is perfect and that the rules must be followed, or else don't play. I don't buy that, and I don't buy into the twisted justification that I get from posts like yours that tend to always side with the mechanics over the concerns of others. Sorry, but no thanks.
Dungeons are knitted together with X amount of bosses and hundreds of adds. It says something when about 75% of groups want to either run large amounts of the dungeon or do some sort of exploit simply to save time. I only really bother with Pirate King, FH and Karr and even then the two latter dungeons can be a headache. Dungeons are far too lengthy with no real tactics and often end in disaster for the reasons above, and other poor dungeon mechanics like not being able to find another member.
I just go along with whatever the group wants to do these days. If it saves an hour that would be otherwise spent killing adds and risking the chance of someone bailing due to boredom or frustration, then yeah, I'll gladly bolt past a few enemies to the next campfire.
The dungeon system needs to be reworked to a degree. Anyone who argues this is sleeping, imho.
You got your examples and reasoning about why nobody want to clear UNREWARDING trash. I'm telling you again:
Make trash drop epic craft materials, new patterns of whatever, pieces of a legendary weapon, unique cosmetic items - anything that makes it worthwhile - and people not only will want to kill the trash, they will FARM the trash.
But you still keep on going with the ridiculous thought that OMG the T2s are so hard people skip because they can't do it.
Newsflash:
People (like some I know, don't know for others) skip when it is time efficient, to maximize loot. Humans don't have infinite time, our lives are finite, it's logical we intend to make the most of what we have.
Also you had examples of very popular dungeons&raids from the most popular MMO out there, with rewarding (much fewer) trash compared to NWO, where people killed trash on a normal basis, so it is extremely viable to make farming trash a better proposition than skipping it, because you would not want to miss on things.
But even with these clear arguments, you look so stubborn and uncompromising in your posts, you'll never admit that better solutions are possible and that dungeon design in NWO is <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> and flawed.
As I have said in a previous post... I have completed ALL the dungeons with an appropriate GS and no exploits.. .this "trend" only really started when the opened the game up to the unwashed masses...
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(noticed someone else, might as well join in XD)
I just see 0's and 1's. And Im having this recurring sense of deja vu, where I swear Ive read this before...
Something must of changed..
Fox Stevenson - Sandblast
Oh Wonder - Without You
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
- Dylan Thomas
Currently the goal of said designers is to create things that takes people's time away from them and optimally transfers that into time/$$ for their parent company. Content or Challenge or Actual fun design is simply the last priority of an MMO game.
The sophistication of MMOs with regards to metrics has gotten quite prevalent. So if the metrics do not say that the exploits are affecting their bottom line or in fact exploiting is actually increasing the activity in the game they will stay in the game for lengthy periods of time.
On the player's side why do they exploit? They do so on one hand because at its base we gamers are fighting the designers for our time. Another reason is because MMOs have gone so far away from being about caring or working as a team and have simply become an epeen festival and a hyper competitive environment to get virtual items before another person so you can show off. This hyper competitive addiction to virtual items drives people to want to do things as fast and as often as possible to get these items.
Bottom line is that it is not the gamers fault or the designers fault alone that exploits exist and will continue to exist. They go hand in hand because MMOs have really become a hyper greedy environment and the base design of them not only support the behavior but encourage it. Using an "exploit" to attain a goal in an environment where the house usually wins is pretty much a no brainer and in the business world would be considered smart business.
Now if the many people who complain about exploits want to actually redefine the object and goal of the game and return it to a state in which people communicate with their party member's and remember their names and don't call them cleric or rogue then maybe we can move towards a resolution. In an ideal world I would most definitely like to see MMOs move away from the hyper greedy impatient and impersonal environments they are. Only when that happens will exploits not be common place and only then will there be a chance for truly diverse content because designers will be able to innovate instead of look at metrics and copy paste old systems.
2) Why do casual gamers, who usually want a quick fix even want to play something like an MMO?
I see alot people saying well this/that needs to appeal to the casual gamer? I always interpreted a casual gamer as someone who wants something simple but entertaining, that you can play in 15 mins or less spurts for enjoyment. So a dungeon that requires a recommended of completion time of 45mins is by no means a casual experience. There's DDO, LOTR, SWTOR, EQ1+2, and the list goes on and on... Not one of them could be considered a casual game. Anyrhing that doesn't fall into the above criteria can't really be considered casual.
MMOs have always been the FPS, or FTS, or Combat Fighter for the fantasy "hard-core" nerds. It's never been about the casual gamer. I've said it more than once... there IS nothing casual about learning how to take down an end-boss at the end of a dungeon. You learn, wipe adapt, and learn more.... to eventually success! It's not meant to be that quick fix! With so many games catering to the casual gamer... why do casual gamers even want to play MMOs... something that historically is meant to be a challenge?
Using that as justification to exploit is a cop-out mister 37yo... so says the 40yo SR.Systems Engineer, with an average work week of 50 to 70 hours. My advice is to actually play a casual quick fix game!
And if you've never played a grind MMO... then sir this is not the game for you...
Age of Conan - Yakhmars cave - one boss is in there and thats it. sorry to prove this , but it does exist.
^^^ this. is. necessary.
glassdoor.com - Cryptic Studios Review