zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited August 2013
. . . . . Opinions are just that, opinions. When one starts to tear apart peoples opinions and insult others for their opinions, one is crossing the line and in fact there-in showing bias against that person, not their opinion. Please, no more bickering about who's opinion is better, who's is right, or who's is wrong. Give one's own opinion of the Topic at Hand and leave it at that. Just because someone has a differing opinion doesn't make one's better or worse, right or wrong and neither does it do that in vice verse. If one feels the need to argue an opinion, take it to PMs.
Are CW's providing any damage in a situation where they are unseen and immune to all range damage? Do they have any abilities such as ITC that allows them to be immune to all CC, 100% deflect, or dodge status that would render any forms of CC used on it useless? You seem to have left out the CC available to the TR (including a 40' ranged high damage stun with multiple charges) while retaining higher survivability with encounters such as ITC or key feature of stealth.
Before you make any comparisons of nerfing another class feature such as a CW to a TR's like you did, there needs to be some sort of even keel between the two. To which there is no class feature like stealth that allows for such optimized gameplay when utilized properly.
Actually, a well played CW can attack you without getting attacked themselves, with their at-will aswell as chill strike. They can easily open up on you from range and get all their CCs of without you being able to react. They also get one extra free dodge. The stun you bring up is also only usable in stealth, making it worthless in a stealth based spec, and it doesnt matter if it has multiple charges, you need to stealth to stun.
And thats what you argue about, not being able to get touched while attacking. It's a spec just like stealth spec. And Ambi, why would you run away from a rogue using CoS? Yes on live if done in the combo it will deal massive damage. On its own, just stand in your AS. Rogues cant KB you out of it and their damage is laughable inside it.
And Nuke, yes there are other class features that allow for optimal gameplay if utilized properly. Guard, Divinity, a 4th empowered encounter and Unstoppable are all on par with stealth, they just work differently. Or have you missed the whine on the forums over those powers? Especially unstoppable and the "we are 4 guys beating on him and his health doesnt move".
I kill things far easier and more carelessly with GWF and GF. All other classes are easy when playing either of those. Does this mean I want them nerfed? No, I want other classes brought on par with them. The one needing most help is currently the DC, it's mostly a free kill.
Also your comparison between ItC and whatever CWs have... How about their control skills? They occupy encounter slots, just like ItC and controls the enemy so they cant hurt you. ItC lasts 3 seconds, dodge while it's up and then CC the TR.
ItC deals no damage, but the CW CCs deal massive damage while maintaining control over the target. But, your arguments sound like they come from a stressy PvPer that cant grasp the current situation quickly enough and act correctly. So it's easier to blame the class that killed you instead of yourself and looking at what you did wrong.
I've never had any real issues with TRs, unless they are overly enchanted, but thats a whole different issue and has nothing to do with the class.
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
So now we get to the rest of the perma stealth "issue", which there is none. If you are in melee, you can spot them, hit them, kill them, avoid them. A CW can keep you locked down long enough to kill you, without being able to do anything in return, should we take away the key feature of CWs too? Or the GF/GWF, which both currently have better control, damage and anti-control things than CCWs while retaining much higher survivability.
Before you make any comparisons of nerfing another class feature such as a CW to a TR's like you did, there needs to be some sort of even keel between the two. To which there is no class feature like stealth that allows for such optimized gameplay when utilized properly.
Even keel refers to a sense of balance for those unaware.
I can go down the entire list of the differences between classes but it would be a waste of time. There are several different class feature that allows for such optimized gameplay when utilized properly in each class and it is what makes the classes unique. The idea of nerfing one class or another class will simply make all the classes the same and remove any variety in the game that would end up hurting the game. In using nukeyoo's post it would appear there is no point to comparing TRs with any of the other classes because each class has its own unique advantages and disadvantages. But wait, it seems to be exactly what people calling for nerfs are doing. I will stop with this post because it is becoming unproductive and I have already stated my opinion.
"You could not have said it better." In regards to sneakyervin post which entails the comparisons to which you say there is no point in making. Each class does in fact have its advantages and disadvantages. The opinions being stated is that being able to do substantial damage with ranged attacks from the safety of stealth and being untargetable at range is an advantage that tips the scales a bit too much in the TR's favor. There's a f#%$ing echo in here... keep hearing myself say the same thing over and over again.. I sound sexy though.. IMO
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
And Nuke, yes there are other class features that allow for optimal gameplay if utilized properly. Guard, Divinity, a 4th empowered encounter and Unstoppable are all on par with stealth, they just work differently. Or have you missed the whine on the forums over those powers? Especially unstoppable and the "we are 4 guys beating on him and his health doesnt move
Lol, I disagree... Referring to another class in need of some adjustments to validate your argument of why your class doesn't need adjustments, doesn't make for a very convincing argument. IMO
But, your arguments sound like they come from a stressy PvPer that cant grasp the current situation quickly enough and act correctly. So it's easier to blame the class that killed you instead of yourself and looking at what you did wrong.
Resorting to insulting assumptions in attempts to hurt my feelings and some how devalue my opinion just because you don't agree with it. Usually in cases where I cause someone to become frustrated enough to resort to personal attacks, I'll just end up leaving the classic, "UMADBRAH?!" lying around.. Go ahead and say that you're not. I'll reserve my right to disagree with you in that regard also. :rolleyes:
Even keel refers to a sense of balance for those unaware.
"You could not have said it better." In regards to sneakyervin post which entails the comparisons to which you say there is no point in making. Each class does in fact have its advantages and disadvantages. The opinions being stated is that being able to do substantial damage with ranged attacks from the safety of stealth and being untargetable at range is an advantage that tips the scales a bit too much in the TR's favor. There's a f#%$ing echo in here... keep hearing myself say the same thing over and over again.. I sound sexy though.. IMO
First off my post you are quoting was in reply to ambisinisterr who specifically said to refer to your post. In my honest opinion the same argument could be made about the advantages in the other classes. The ability of GFs to shrug damage off by using their shield and to use the shield as a weapon could be considered an advantage that tips the scales a bit to much in the GF's favor. The ability of DCs to rapidly heal themselves and use astral shield could be considered an advantage that tips the scales a bit to much in the DC's favor. I have also witnessed a DC fight extremely well and even take out a 12.2k GS TR in PVP. The ability of GWFs to use unstoppable could be considered an unfair advantage that tips the scales a bit to much in the GWF's favors. The ability of CW to use control spells that can trap TRs in stealth could be considered an unfair advantage that tips the scales a bit to much in the CW's favor. I could go on and on but it is a waste of time to be honest. I am not calling for the other classes to be nerfed or celebrating a nerf when it occurs. The reason for this is that it hurts the game and if the nerfs continue it will remove any challenge in PVP. I face the challenge head on and adapt instead of complaining about it. Right now it is TRs on the chopping block, DCs have already been on the chopping block, who will be next?
IMO:)(To be honest PVP should have been kept separate from PVE so all the nerfs and *balancing* updates can occur to make the complainers happy in PVP instead of destroying PVE. I bet the devs will have to decrease the difficulty of the dungeons again like they did in a previous patch. We will just have to wait and see.)
OP: Do you devs have any Dungeons & Dragons players among you? Instead of nerfing rogue damage and crit chance, nerf HP and defense. End of problem. Every tabletop D&D player and DM knows that rogues can do a lot of damage but are very frail.
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
OP: Do you devs have any Dungeons & Dragons players among you? Instead of nerfing rogue damage and crit chance, nerf HP and defense. End of problem. Every tabletop D&D player and DM knows that rogues can do a lot of damage but are very frail.
Nerfing hp and defense would do little to assuage any complaints towards the rogue since stealth essentially can create a barrier where neither of those two stats matter. You can't have your damage mitigated or hit their hit points if you can't target them. Complaints are toward the combination of that barrier + CoS.
Lol, I disagree... Referring to another class in need of some adjustments to validate your argument of why your class doesn't need adjustments, doesn't make for a very convincing argument. IMO
Resorting to insulting assumptions in attempts to hurt my feelings and some how devalue my opinion just because you don't agree with it. Usually in cases where I cause someone to become frustrated enough to resort to personal attacks, I'll just end up leaving the classic, "UMADBRAH?!" lying around.. Go ahead and say that you're not. I'll reserve my right to disagree with you in that regard also. :rolleyes:
I never ment it as an insult, just an observation, since it sounds the same in every game when it comes to nerfs. People focus on one of the middle classes, the TR, yelling for nerfs when there are 2 other much stronger classes out there when it comes to PvP.
A CW can kill a TR and a TR can kill a CW, 50/50 chance, depends on player skill. Both of them have a hell of a time to kill a GWF or GF. Against a TR it comes down to timing and gear differance if you're a CW, something I bet many people forget about. Classes arent as imbalanced as people think, enchants are however.
I also dont say that TRs didnt need a nerf or well fix, because they did. But even though its done, people still complain and moan that they should be nerfed even more. It hasnt even gone live yet so we dont know how balanced or imbalanced it will be.
I've posted numbers, simple numbers, that are ignored more or less by the complainers. You are complaining about 8 daggers being thrown at you before the TR jumps in to fight you, daggers that will hit for far far less than they do on live. As I said before, on live, only a bad player will die to a non LA CoS.
If CoS drained stealth, you would just see rogues saving it for when stealth runs out to finish you off, it would still deal the same damage. The deadly combo is dead and gone, the thing that insta gibbed you exsists no more, its history on the 22nd of August.
Oh and the colorful text adds nothing to your arguments, it just becomes more annoying to read it and take you seriously. Underlinging, bold or italics would be less annoying to read.
Just thought of a thing. Lets just redesign CoS, make it have infinite charges, 3 sec cd but have a 3 sec 20% snare or something. It would make the TR a proper melee class, no worries for people to get killed from range.
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Individuals who have biased opinions against TRs will not admit it but they will make it obvious. They will continue to complain until TRs are nerfed into the ground and useless just because they do not like Trs.
I am also well aware of the TR's capabilities and what can be done with limited CoS charges because I play the class and have been leveling an int rogue.
Yes I am extremely biased against a class that I have geared and play on a daily basis. I hope this wasn't too nasty.
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Ok the TR nerf is a result of perma stealth rogues, ppl who feel that being one shotted by Stealth+LA+LB is unfair, ppl who feel that being taken to half hp by cos in stealth is unfair.
The above is the facts and why this nerf is being tested.
Lets not go with the l2p stuff....i know it's tempting...but don't.
Lets try and SAVE the TR while also pleasing the ppl crying about the above.
I have a few suggestions. If u have better, please do post it.
1) Perma stealth: All you have to do is make Bait and switch NOT refill stealth meter. Make stealth strike regen 50% of max stealth meter. Thats it. NO MORE PERMA STEALTH
2) Stealth+LA+LB: Remove the confirmed crit from stealth on LB. Now it's a CHANCE to crit and not a confirmed one.
3)Cloud of steel in stealth: The right idea here. Make COS THE ONLY EXCLUSIVE SKILL that drains stealth meter while in stealth.
There u have it. From the way i look at my suggestions. You REMOVE the reasons the other ppl were crying. You balance the game without backlash from the TR community(except the perma stealth ones)
You don't GUT AND OVER NERF useful skills that TR players are using for pve and pvp.
IF I DID IT WRONG. please state your case in an ADULT fashion. If you agree, please also support the cause.
The above would be more amicable to EVERYONE. Devs. u said u listen. Lets try to meet in the middle on this one.
My simple question of WHY call for nerfs instead of calling for buffs of your own class, still has gone unanswered.
Isn't it better to get your own class buffed, or ANYTHING buffed and get cheers and happiness all around?
Or is it simple better to ruin another classes stuff?
So suggesting CoS drain stealth is ruining the class stuff? I thought you said it didn't gut and over nerf useful skills that TR players are using for pve and pvp while balancing the game without backlash from the TR community. I'm confused now. Which is it?
So suggesting CoS drain stealth is ruining the class stuff? I thought you said it didn't gut and over nerf useful skills that TR players are using for pve and pvp while balancing the game without backlash from the TR community. I'm confused now. Which is it?
No prob. let me clear your confusion. Please see the key sentence in my previous post which u copied...."lets try to SAVE the TR class...etc etc"
Because a RIDICULOUS nerf was incoming, we had to show developers a better way. Thus the "SAVE" part. I've also said in various other posts........"All the other previous mmo's i've played only ADDS, to classes/characters, not subtracts...etc etc"
My opinion on the whole subject as a WHOLE, still stands......NO NERFS, just buffs.......BUT if you simply MUST nerf....do it in a way it won't GUT AND OVER NERF.
Hope you are clearer now.
PITY,REGRET, AND MERCY are just EXCUSES for the strong not to kill the weak!
PvP wise, any Dot kill's a rogue's stealth. Ray of Enfeeblement, Forgemaster's Flame/ Brand of the sun, Deep Gash, Plaguefire enchantment, flaming enchantment. Don't let him shadowstrike you and you should not be worried about a visible rogue, you deplete a rogue's stealth hes food after his Impossible to catch duration is down.
PvE wise, rogues are a thing of the past, unless stealth is actually used for something. GWFs can do better, Equally geared and equally played GWF only lose to rogues in dps due to single target bleed on live shard. With the nerf in how bleed works, I will not run CN or any T2 with my end game TR. GWFs if well played comes a close second in single target dps. Because with the patch going live my GWF's single target damage will be greater than my rogue's. I guess my rogue is just my profession money maker now.
Nevermore@meeggtoast 12.2 BiS TR Lanaya@meeggtoast 13.4 BiS GWF Shendelzare@meeggtoast 11.2k CN mule CW
No prob. let me clear your confusion. Please see the key sentence in my previous post which u copied...."lets try to SAVE the TR class...etc etc"
Because a RIDICULOUS nerf was incoming, we had to show developers a better way. Thus the "SAVE" part. I've also said in various other posts........"All the other previous mmo's i've played only ADDS, to classes/characters, not subtracts...etc etc"
My opinion on the whole subject as a WHOLE, still stands......NO NERFS, just buffs.......BUT if you simply MUST nerf....do it in a way it won't GUT AND OVER NERF.
Hope you are clearer now.
Sorry, I was being facetious and wasn't actually confused. I find it quite humorous finding folks like yourself that flip flop like a fish out of water at times on the forums. You're not stacking enough recovery to come back from saying....
3)Cloud of steel in stealth: The right idea here. Make COS THE ONLY EXCLUSIVE SKILL that drains stealth meter while in stealth.
There u have it. From the way i look at my suggestions. You REMOVE the reasons the other ppl were crying. You balance the game without backlash from the TR community(except the perma stealth ones)
You don't GUT AND OVER NERF useful skills that TR players are using for pve and pvp.
...to saying that people who suggest CoS drain stealth are trying to ruin the class....
Your inquiry of why not buff multiple classes rather then nerfing one. Buffing multiple classes and possibly creating more gripe from the classes that did not receive buffs or nerfing one... Insert occam's razor.
Nuke, if you can't understand the simple concept of When a nerf is imminent "IF it HAS to be nerfed, nerf it without too much damage" and when a nerf is not a threat, better to go with "Hey instead of nerfing, why not BUFF?"
Then i can't help you.
EDIT: Maybe i CAN make it clearer.....
Simply put.
My suggestions were based on the previous threat of a nerf. Without the aforementioned threat...My suggestions wouldn't even exist.
Does this make it clearer? If not, let me know if u still don't get it.....I'll try my BEST to come up with a different way of explaining it-__-
PITY,REGRET, AND MERCY are just EXCUSES for the strong not to kill the weak!
The first nerf i would introduce is that stealthed TR aren't able to cap/reset capping like all other visible classes do to stay at the cap node. That would change a lot for DC and CW and other classes. TR can hide, but he can't cap/blocking cap of an conquerer by only on the node and in stealth. OoT: It's funny, that the TR's QQ about stealth mechanic killed by at-wills it's hard. Think about the mechanic of GF. He hasn't really one helpful. So don't QQ that you are toasts without stealth. Are you really think, that you play a paper gun and not an invisible bomberchar? Stealth should help in some situations, not be 100% uptime any time!
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Nuke, if you can't understand the simple concept of When a nerf is imminent "IF it HAS to be nerfed, nerf it without too much damage" and when a nerf is not a threat, better to go with "Hey instead of nerfing, why not BUFF?"
Then i can't help you.
EDIT: Maybe i CAN make it clearer.....
Simply put.
My suggestions were based on the previous threat of a nerf. Without the aforementioned threat...My suggestions wouldn't even exist.
Does this make it clearer? If not, let me know if u still don't get it.....I'll try my BEST to come up with a different way of explaining it-__-
Here let me add more color and size for you to read YOUR own words. That YOU yourself recommend as being acceptable in hopes of balancing the game.
3)Cloud of steel in stealth: The right idea here. Make COS THE ONLY EXCLUSIVE SKILL that drains stealth meter while in stealth.
There u have it. From the way i look at my suggestions.You REMOVE the reasons the other ppl were crying.You balance the game without backlash from the TR community(except the perma stealth ones)
You don't GUT AND OVER NERF useful skills that TR players are using for pve and pvp.
IF I DID IT WRONG. please state your case in an ADULT fashion. If you agree, please also support the cause.
The above would be more amicable to EVERYONE. Devs. u said u listen. Lets try to meet in the middle on this one.
Saying something is acceptable and balancing merely because that there is a imminent threat, doesn't change the fact that you yourself said it was acceptable and balancing and doesn't gut and nerf usefull skills that TR players use. Now when the threat has subsided suddenly your own suggestion that was acceptable and balancing becomes class ruining.
Perhaps you should think about running for office. You've got what it takes to make a great politician. The ability to flip flop on subject matters in attempts to benefit yourself to the fullest while stacking large amounts of deflection for when your flip flopping self interest is pointed out. I might even vote for you. :rolleyes:
The first nerf i would introduce is that stealthed TR aren't able to cap/reset capping like all other visible classes do to stay at the cap node. That would change a lot for DC and CW and other classes. TR can hide, but he can't cap/blocking cap of an conquerer by only on the node and in stealth. OoT: It's funny, that the TR's QQ about stealth mechanic killed by at-wills it's hard. Think about the mechanic of GF. He hasn't really one helpful. So don't QQ that you are toasts without stealth. Are you really think, that you play a paper gun and not an invisible bomberchar? Stealth should help in some situations, not be 100% uptime any time!
You dont find it helpful to be able to move towards your enemy without worrying about getting CCed? You dont find it helpful being able to raise your shield and ignore DoTs?
And not letting a stealthed TR cap a node would not be fair, since you can attack them while they are stealthed. You just need to find them, which is pretty **** easy if they try and cap a node. You know why? Because you already know in which area they are, the the node cap circle isnt very big.
@Nuke: Devlinne is talking about the fix they should have done at first. Not about something that should be added now. They should have let CoS drain stealth as the first nerf and seen how it worked out instead of adding a pile of nerfs at once. Thats his point which you miss.
Nerfing too many things at once is just very very bad, since they have no clue which nerf wasnt needed incase the class preformance turns out to be too low.
If they would have just made CoS drain stealth and left the rest untouched we could have seen what an impact it would have.
As Bob says, "Baby steps towards the elevator, baby steps into the elevator. AAAAAHHHHH!!!!"
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kingculexMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
You dont find it helpful to be able to move towards your enemy without worrying about getting CCed? You dont find it helpful being able to raise your shield and ignore DoTs?
And not letting a stealthed TR cap a node would not be fair, since you can attack them while they are stealthed. You just need to find them, which is pretty **** easy if they try and cap a node. You know why? Because you already know in which area they are, the the node cap circle isnt very big.
@Nuke: Devlinne is talking about the fix they should have done at first. Not about something that should be added now. They should have let CoS drain stealth as the first nerf and seen how it worked out instead of adding a pile of nerfs at once. Thats his point which you miss.
Nerfing too many things at once is just very very bad, since they have no clue which nerf wasnt needed incase the class preformance turns out to be too low.
If they would have just made CoS drain stealth and left the rest untouched we could have seen what an impact it would have.
As Bob says, "Baby steps towards the elevator, baby steps into the elevator. AAAAAHHHHH!!!!"
I am reasonable individual and I have to say you have a valid point. Too many nerfs at one time is a very bad idea. The CoS + Stealth drain could have been reasonable if they did not reduce the number of daggers in CoS at the same time. More TRs might have been reasonable if they did not also add in the LA nerf and the Bleed nerf at the same time as well. Anyone who bothers to play as a can tell Trs were meant to be able to fight when in stealth for a short time. Otherwise a TR's abilities would not recieve a bonus by using them when in stealth. The time in stealth was meant to be extended a little but TRs were not meant to stay continuously. I personally do not support permastealths and I think the devs realized they were going about it the wrong way to fix them.
Every class has advantages and disadvantages. Learn the disadvantages of you class to overcome them. Learn the advantages of your class and the disadvatages of other classes to use them in pvp to win.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
You dont find it helpful to be able to move towards your enemy without worrying about getting CCed? You dont find it helpful being able to raise your shield and ignore DoTs?
And not letting a stealthed TR cap a node would not be fair, since you can attack them while they are stealthed. You just need to find them, which is pretty **** easy if they try and cap a node. You know why? Because you already know in which area they are, the the node cap circle isnt very big.
@Nuke: Devlinne is talking about the fix they should have done at first. Not about something that should be added now. They should have let CoS drain stealth as the first nerf and seen how it worked out instead of adding a pile of nerfs at once. Thats his point which you miss.
Nerfing too many things at once is just very very bad, since they have no clue which nerf wasnt needed incase the class preformance turns out to be too low.
If they would have just made CoS drain stealth and left the rest untouched we could have seen what an impact it would have.
As Bob says, "Baby steps towards the elevator, baby steps into the elevator. AAAAAHHHHH!!!!"
Please don't write BS/a lie. Our Mechanic doesn't allow that what you write. OUR UTILITY enable it. THAT'S a HUGE DIFFERENCE!
A TR has dodge as Utility too! CW too! You compare apple with pear.
Doesn't i say QQ? How many classes can cap without ever be able to attack from far? Right 1. How many can hide until a fight? 1! It's not fair that 4 of 5 classes are weak at the point, but the TR not. If the TR want to cap - he has to be visible like all the other 4 classes! Say a CW that he should get into the melee of a TR! 2 Hit and he is down. Fair? NO! 'He can wait' BS 'He can run into Cap' BS. He can't do NOTHING against them. And this is for all 4 classes, which aren't TRs. That's a huge injustice.
And it's only a PvP nerf. Without any dramatic effect on any build.
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thalesamrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2013
After I saw that my **** TR friend had almost no armor pen, and now that he got some he is doing almost 3x times my dmg in boss and 80% in mobs (both of us with full most expensive dmg sets allures, him with vorpal, and me with greater vorpal) I give up, I'm doing a TR because this nerfs arent enough to justify a GWF in a dungeon party...
So if you are GWF (with no premade party, unlike me) and want to have party for dungeons, just create a TR instead... also playing as TR I see how much easier is to survive with all those fancy abilities to avoid dmg
After I saw that my **** TR friend had almost no armor pen, and now that he got some he is doing almost 3x times my dmg in boss and 80% in mobs (both of us with full most expensive dmg sets allures, him with vorpal, and me with greater vorpal) I give up, I'm doing a TR because this nerfs arent enough to justify a GWF in a dungeon party...
So if you are GWF (with no premade party, unlike me) and want to have party for dungeons, just create a TR instead... also playing as TR I see how much easier is to survive with all those fancy abilities to avoid dmg
Thats the TR duty, single target dps. Dpsing as a GWF is one of the things I love, it's easier than both TR and CW to me. You just need to play them more aggressivly. A TR cant really take a hard hit, the GWF can, at which point you build massive determination. Unstoppable buffs all your powers, along with WMS that means your encounters will hit hard. I havent had any issues myself with GWF dps or CW dps for that matter.
I'm not in very good gear even on my GWF, I run with what I could get at 60 from PvP and AH. I just tried to get acceptable recovery, arpen and crit. You might be too deep in power, which adds very little. With the spec/equipment I have I remove 75%(iirc) defense from enemies and then after that you have 20% or so arpen, plus 15% mitigation reduction from WMS on your at-wills and encounters. Ontop of that there is almost 100% uptime on unstoppable.
May I suggest decrease the casting animation of DF while in LA?
Love this idea.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited August 2013
I have removed numerous posts for insulting or belittling the opinions of others.
Please do not label other player's opinions irrational or in any other way invalid. Everybody has the right to express their opinions. Put yours on the table but do not belittle the opinion of others under any circumstances.
Please don't write BS/a lie. Our Mechanic doesn't allow that what you write. OUR UTILITY enable it. THAT'S a HUGE DIFFERENCE!
A TR has dodge as Utility too! CW too! You compare apple with pear.
Doesn't i say QQ? How many classes can cap without ever be able to attack from far? Right 1. How many can hide until a fight? 1! It's not fair that 4 of 5 classes are weak at the point, but the TR not. If the TR want to cap - he has to be visible like all the other 4 classes! Say a CW that he should get into the melee of a TR! 2 Hit and he is down. Fair? NO! 'He can wait' BS 'He can run into Cap' BS. He can't do NOTHING against them. And this is for all 4 classes, which aren't TRs. That's a huge injustice.
And it's only a PvP nerf. Without any dramatic effect on any build.
So why not just make it an even playing field while your at it. As soon as you get inside the cap circle, all TAB skills become unusable and if you currently have a buff from one, it gets removed. No 4th encounter for CW, No stealth for TR, no divinity for DC, no unstoppable for GWF and no mark for GF.
Nevermind that all the other classes have skills to remove the TR from the node just by running in there. Or hey, oh thats right, just standing on the node interrupt his cap. Forcing him to either attack you or run off.
If you're a GF/GWF you hunt him down in the circle and kill him if he decides to stay, if you're a CW or DC you KB out of the circle, wasting seconds on his stealth and interrupting his cap, letting it tick back to you.
All stealth does at the node is giving the TR the opening advantage, it doesnt magically make him cap faster or if there are enemies in the circle. I never stealth until enemies come to take it back, it gives me a few extra seconds while they close in, forcing them to go to me. Its tactics.
There are so many ways to counter a TR trying to stealth cap, the easiest is the one I mentioned, run into the circle and force him out or run away. TRs arent hard to spot.
And I do appologize for mixing up guard with mark, mark is just such a horrible skill I never think of it as the tab skill, guard fits the role much better.
Thats the TR duty, single target dps. Dpsing as a GWF is one of the things I love, it's easier than both TR and CW to me. You just need to play them more aggressivly. A TR cant really take a hard hit, the GWF can, at which point you build massive determination. Unstoppable buffs all your powers, along with WMS that means your encounters will hit hard. I havent had any issues myself with GWF dps or CW dps for that matter.
I'm not in very good gear even on my GWF, I run with what I could get at 60 from PvP and AH. I just tried to get acceptable recovery, arpen and crit. You might be too deep in power, which adds very little. With the spec/equipment I have I remove 75%(iirc) defense from enemies and then after that you have 20% or so arpen, plus 15% mitigation reduction from WMS on your at-wills and encounters. Ontop of that there is almost 100% uptime on unstoppable.
Yes, they can. use impossible to catch, they have dodge and other stuffs...
... It is hard for a GWF to be invited to a party, and every party have 1-2 (Already done FH with 4 tr 1 DC, pretty fast)
Yes, it is the job of a TR to do ST dmg, but the absurd dmg from TR and singularity from CW is enough to make any GWF obsolete... (I'm playing with TR now, all my friends tell me to use a TR instead of GWF in dungeons and I see the reason why...)
I know how the numbers work, and I know how to balance CRT, armor pen, and recovery for both classes, I know which skills to use as well... so as my rogue friend, my party can finish any dungeon easily..., and I see that GWF not necessary and in lots of cases they are carried...
But it i always better to bring a TR in every dungeon, TR and DC are always good (you dont need CW for FH in the current state of the game)
It is sad that I'm not allowed to bring m GWF to dungeons like Spellplague and CN because my friends say that it is detrimental to the team, so I have to use my CW on those
GWF is good for single player dungeons...
Also if you want to do dmg as GWF you must invest in Slam, that is the main DPS in dungeon for GWF, so... recovery and roar are must have.
So why not just make it an even playing field while your at it. As soon as you get inside the cap circle, all TAB skills become unusable and if you currently have a buff from one, it gets removed. No 4th encounter for CW, No stealth for TR, no divinity for DC, no unstoppable for GWF and no mark for GF.
Nevermind that all the other classes have skills to remove the TR from the node just by running in there. Or hey, oh thats right, just standing on the node interrupt his cap. Forcing him to either attack you or run off.
If you're a GF/GWF you hunt him down in the circle and kill him if he decides to stay, if you're a CW or DC you KB out of the circle, wasting seconds on his stealth and interrupting his cap, letting it tick back to you.
All stealth does at the node is giving the TR the opening advantage, it doesnt magically make him cap faster or if there are enemies in the circle. I never stealth until enemies come to take it back, it gives me a few extra seconds while they close in, forcing them to go to me. Its tactics.
There are so many ways to counter a TR trying to stealth cap, the easiest is the one I mentioned, run into the circle and force him out or run away. TRs arent hard to spot.
And I do appologize for mixing up guard with mark, mark is just such a horrible skill I never think of it as the tab skill, guard fits the role much better.
You don't check it? I don't mind that all tab skills be useless in the cap. I only say, that stealthed TRs don't count as a player inside the cap. He can still sit at the cap in invisible mod, but he don't cap for his team. The bolt is that, what is broken at stealth. If you lose against a GF/GWF with that huge advantage - you see them come and you can attack them - than you have L2P. All ranged attack can do against DC, CW, GF and GWF as they choose to stay at cap in her weakness. The TR don't. Oh the TR is on Cap! YEAH. But i can't hit him. Great! I have to go to close to them - be a 2hitdown -. Nice - not. That's not working for me as intended, that a class have a immunity against all ranged attacks and get his victims as food. If you don't have counter to counter the counter, than L2P to learn one.
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kantazo1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2013
For long time I have search for a game to enjoy, I found this one and now the class I just started to play is getting nerf. Why devs use the nerf as a tool instead to revamping other areas of the game. A good Taylor always measues twice and then cut once.
@Thalesamr: GWF is not a striker class, so shouldnt be able to do the same dps as a striker class. And yes, the TR "can" use ItC, at which point he just replaced a dps skill or smokebomb. The GWF can take the hit straight up, pop unstoppable and be alright. The high amount of damage the TR does in combo with singu is possible with a GWF too. But the key thing is, the TR can only go as a striker a.k.a dps in dungeons. A GWF has 2-3x the mitigation of a TR, along with high deflection. I've never spent a point in Slam, I use slam as it is for AoE, thats it, the 25% power is a total waste. I also dont use Roar, since determination is easily built by just taking a hit. Recovery is no issue, since it gives you Arpen aswell, you invest in recovery instead of arpen gems etc. I dont see how you can expect to gain the dps of a striker class when you are a hybrid, it's just how the game is designed, you pay for your passive survivability through lowered dps. You are still one of the 2 deadliest foes in a BG, since overall damage doesnt matter there, only burst.
@ladysylvia: The thing is, you start with the L2P comments now. It's mindnumbingly easy to kill a TR with a GWF or GF even if they jump you or even get close to jumping you. Cascade of massive damage+control abilites and the rogue is dead without doing anything in return. As I said, TRs are so very easy to spot if you know what to look for. The thing you argue can be argued by a GWF or GF in return when fighting a CW or DC, "great I have to go close to them" since neither fighter have ranged abilites. Do you see them stand around outside circles? No, they use their mechanics to get close, just like a CW or DC can when it comes to a hidden TR capping.
You know the TR is there, obviously unless someone managed to cheat his way to invisibility on another class. And since you know hes there, you will be careful and not waste your skills on nothing. If he starts using CoS follow the knife trail towards his position. If he tries to get close, make sure to have your magic bubble up and he will deal alot less damage. Or maybe you are like one of my friends, complaining he gets killed as a CW, even though he freely ignores to use his bubble?
It also seems like many of you arguing are arguing without taking the patch nerfs to TR into account, you are still stuck in the mind that rogues are as they are on live. This is the PTR forums so comment with the nerfs in mind.
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Actually, a well played CW can attack you without getting attacked themselves, with their at-will aswell as chill strike. They can easily open up on you from range and get all their CCs of without you being able to react. They also get one extra free dodge. The stun you bring up is also only usable in stealth, making it worthless in a stealth based spec, and it doesnt matter if it has multiple charges, you need to stealth to stun.
And thats what you argue about, not being able to get touched while attacking. It's a spec just like stealth spec. And Ambi, why would you run away from a rogue using CoS? Yes on live if done in the combo it will deal massive damage. On its own, just stand in your AS. Rogues cant KB you out of it and their damage is laughable inside it.
And Nuke, yes there are other class features that allow for optimal gameplay if utilized properly. Guard, Divinity, a 4th empowered encounter and Unstoppable are all on par with stealth, they just work differently. Or have you missed the whine on the forums over those powers? Especially unstoppable and the "we are 4 guys beating on him and his health doesnt move".
I kill things far easier and more carelessly with GWF and GF. All other classes are easy when playing either of those. Does this mean I want them nerfed? No, I want other classes brought on par with them. The one needing most help is currently the DC, it's mostly a free kill.
Also your comparison between ItC and whatever CWs have... How about their control skills? They occupy encounter slots, just like ItC and controls the enemy so they cant hurt you. ItC lasts 3 seconds, dodge while it's up and then CC the TR.
ItC deals no damage, but the CW CCs deal massive damage while maintaining control over the target. But, your arguments sound like they come from a stressy PvPer that cant grasp the current situation quickly enough and act correctly. So it's easier to blame the class that killed you instead of yourself and looking at what you did wrong.
I've never had any real issues with TRs, unless they are overly enchanted, but thats a whole different issue and has nothing to do with the class.
I didn't start the comparisons.
Even keel refers to a sense of balance for those unaware.
"You could not have said it better." In regards to sneakyervin post which entails the comparisons to which you say there is no point in making. Each class does in fact have its advantages and disadvantages. The opinions being stated is that being able to do substantial damage with ranged attacks from the safety of stealth and being untargetable at range is an advantage that tips the scales a bit too much in the TR's favor. There's a f#%$ing echo in here... keep hearing myself say the same thing over and over again.. I sound sexy though.. IMO
Lol, I disagree... Referring to another class in need of some adjustments to validate your argument of why your class doesn't need adjustments, doesn't make for a very convincing argument. IMO
Resorting to insulting assumptions in attempts to hurt my feelings and some how devalue my opinion just because you don't agree with it. Usually in cases where I cause someone to become frustrated enough to resort to personal attacks, I'll just end up leaving the classic, "UMADBRAH?!" lying around.. Go ahead and say that you're not. I'll reserve my right to disagree with you in that regard also. :rolleyes:
First off my post you are quoting was in reply to ambisinisterr who specifically said to refer to your post. In my honest opinion the same argument could be made about the advantages in the other classes. The ability of GFs to shrug damage off by using their shield and to use the shield as a weapon could be considered an advantage that tips the scales a bit to much in the GF's favor. The ability of DCs to rapidly heal themselves and use astral shield could be considered an advantage that tips the scales a bit to much in the DC's favor. I have also witnessed a DC fight extremely well and even take out a 12.2k GS TR in PVP. The ability of GWFs to use unstoppable could be considered an unfair advantage that tips the scales a bit to much in the GWF's favors. The ability of CW to use control spells that can trap TRs in stealth could be considered an unfair advantage that tips the scales a bit to much in the CW's favor. I could go on and on but it is a waste of time to be honest. I am not calling for the other classes to be nerfed or celebrating a nerf when it occurs. The reason for this is that it hurts the game and if the nerfs continue it will remove any challenge in PVP. I face the challenge head on and adapt instead of complaining about it. Right now it is TRs on the chopping block, DCs have already been on the chopping block, who will be next?
IMO:)(To be honest PVP should have been kept separate from PVE so all the nerfs and *balancing* updates can occur to make the complainers happy in PVP instead of destroying PVE. I bet the devs will have to decrease the difficulty of the dungeons again like they did in a previous patch. We will just have to wait and see.)
Nerfing hp and defense would do little to assuage any complaints towards the rogue since stealth essentially can create a barrier where neither of those two stats matter. You can't have your damage mitigated or hit their hit points if you can't target them. Complaints are toward the combination of that barrier + CoS.
Isn't it better to get your own class buffed, or ANYTHING buffed and get cheers and happiness all around?
Or is it simple better to ruin another classes stuff?
I never ment it as an insult, just an observation, since it sounds the same in every game when it comes to nerfs. People focus on one of the middle classes, the TR, yelling for nerfs when there are 2 other much stronger classes out there when it comes to PvP.
A CW can kill a TR and a TR can kill a CW, 50/50 chance, depends on player skill. Both of them have a hell of a time to kill a GWF or GF. Against a TR it comes down to timing and gear differance if you're a CW, something I bet many people forget about. Classes arent as imbalanced as people think, enchants are however.
I also dont say that TRs didnt need a nerf or well fix, because they did. But even though its done, people still complain and moan that they should be nerfed even more. It hasnt even gone live yet so we dont know how balanced or imbalanced it will be.
I've posted numbers, simple numbers, that are ignored more or less by the complainers. You are complaining about 8 daggers being thrown at you before the TR jumps in to fight you, daggers that will hit for far far less than they do on live. As I said before, on live, only a bad player will die to a non LA CoS.
If CoS drained stealth, you would just see rogues saving it for when stealth runs out to finish you off, it would still deal the same damage. The deadly combo is dead and gone, the thing that insta gibbed you exsists no more, its history on the 22nd of August.
Oh and the colorful text adds nothing to your arguments, it just becomes more annoying to read it and take you seriously. Underlinging, bold or italics would be less annoying to read.
Just thought of a thing. Lets just redesign CoS, make it have infinite charges, 3 sec cd but have a 3 sec 20% snare or something. It would make the TR a proper melee class, no worries for people to get killed from range.
Yes I am extremely biased against a class that I have geared and play on a daily basis. I hope this wasn't too nasty.
So suggesting CoS drain stealth is ruining the class stuff? I thought you said it didn't gut and over nerf useful skills that TR players are using for pve and pvp while balancing the game without backlash from the TR community. I'm confused now. Which is it?
No prob. let me clear your confusion. Please see the key sentence in my previous post which u copied...."lets try to SAVE the TR class...etc etc"
Because a RIDICULOUS nerf was incoming, we had to show developers a better way. Thus the "SAVE" part. I've also said in various other posts........"All the other previous mmo's i've played only ADDS, to classes/characters, not subtracts...etc etc"
My opinion on the whole subject as a WHOLE, still stands......NO NERFS, just buffs.......BUT if you simply MUST nerf....do it in a way it won't GUT AND OVER NERF.
Hope you are clearer now.
PvE wise, rogues are a thing of the past, unless stealth is actually used for something. GWFs can do better, Equally geared and equally played GWF only lose to rogues in dps due to single target bleed on live shard. With the nerf in how bleed works, I will not run CN or any T2 with my end game TR. GWFs if well played comes a close second in single target dps. Because with the patch going live my GWF's single target damage will be greater than my rogue's. I guess my rogue is just my profession money maker now.
Lanaya@meeggtoast 13.4 BiS GWF
Shendelzare@meeggtoast 11.2k CN mule CW
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Guide: Meeggtoast's Destroyer Dps Guide
Sorry, I was being facetious and wasn't actually confused. I find it quite humorous finding folks like yourself that flip flop like a fish out of water at times on the forums. You're not stacking enough recovery to come back from saying....
...to saying that people who suggest CoS drain stealth are trying to ruin the class....
Your inquiry of why not buff multiple classes rather then nerfing one. Buffing multiple classes and possibly creating more gripe from the classes that did not receive buffs or nerfing one... Insert occam's razor.
Then i can't help you.
EDIT: Maybe i CAN make it clearer.....
Simply put.
My suggestions were based on the previous threat of a nerf. Without the aforementioned threat...My suggestions wouldn't even exist.
Does this make it clearer? If not, let me know if u still don't get it.....I'll try my BEST to come up with a different way of explaining it-__-
Here let me add more color and size for you to read YOUR own words. That YOU yourself recommend as being acceptable in hopes of balancing the game.
Saying something is acceptable and balancing merely because that there is a imminent threat, doesn't change the fact that you yourself said it was acceptable and balancing and doesn't gut and nerf usefull skills that TR players use. Now when the threat has subsided suddenly your own suggestion that was acceptable and balancing becomes class ruining.
Perhaps you should think about running for office. You've got what it takes to make a great politician. The ability to flip flop on subject matters in attempts to benefit yourself to the fullest while stacking large amounts of deflection for when your flip flopping self interest is pointed out. I might even vote for you. :rolleyes:
You dont find it helpful to be able to move towards your enemy without worrying about getting CCed? You dont find it helpful being able to raise your shield and ignore DoTs?
And not letting a stealthed TR cap a node would not be fair, since you can attack them while they are stealthed. You just need to find them, which is pretty **** easy if they try and cap a node. You know why? Because you already know in which area they are, the the node cap circle isnt very big.
@Nuke: Devlinne is talking about the fix they should have done at first. Not about something that should be added now. They should have let CoS drain stealth as the first nerf and seen how it worked out instead of adding a pile of nerfs at once. Thats his point which you miss.
Nerfing too many things at once is just very very bad, since they have no clue which nerf wasnt needed incase the class preformance turns out to be too low.
If they would have just made CoS drain stealth and left the rest untouched we could have seen what an impact it would have.
As Bob says, "Baby steps towards the elevator, baby steps into the elevator. AAAAAHHHHH!!!!"
I am reasonable individual and I have to say you have a valid point. Too many nerfs at one time is a very bad idea. The CoS + Stealth drain could have been reasonable if they did not reduce the number of daggers in CoS at the same time. More TRs might have been reasonable if they did not also add in the LA nerf and the Bleed nerf at the same time as well. Anyone who bothers to play as a can tell Trs were meant to be able to fight when in stealth for a short time. Otherwise a TR's abilities would not recieve a bonus by using them when in stealth. The time in stealth was meant to be extended a little but TRs were not meant to stay continuously. I personally do not support permastealths and I think the devs realized they were going about it the wrong way to fix them.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
Please don't write BS/a lie. Our Mechanic doesn't allow that what you write. OUR UTILITY enable it. THAT'S a HUGE DIFFERENCE!
A TR has dodge as Utility too! CW too! You compare apple with pear.
Doesn't i say QQ? How many classes can cap without ever be able to attack from far? Right 1. How many can hide until a fight? 1! It's not fair that 4 of 5 classes are weak at the point, but the TR not. If the TR want to cap - he has to be visible like all the other 4 classes! Say a CW that he should get into the melee of a TR! 2 Hit and he is down. Fair? NO! 'He can wait' BS 'He can run into Cap' BS. He can't do NOTHING against them. And this is for all 4 classes, which aren't TRs. That's a huge injustice.
And it's only a PvP nerf. Without any dramatic effect on any build.
So if you are GWF (with no premade party, unlike me) and want to have party for dungeons, just create a TR instead... also playing as TR I see how much easier is to survive with all those fancy abilities to avoid dmg
Thats the TR duty, single target dps. Dpsing as a GWF is one of the things I love, it's easier than both TR and CW to me. You just need to play them more aggressivly. A TR cant really take a hard hit, the GWF can, at which point you build massive determination. Unstoppable buffs all your powers, along with WMS that means your encounters will hit hard. I havent had any issues myself with GWF dps or CW dps for that matter.
I'm not in very good gear even on my GWF, I run with what I could get at 60 from PvP and AH. I just tried to get acceptable recovery, arpen and crit. You might be too deep in power, which adds very little. With the spec/equipment I have I remove 75%(iirc) defense from enemies and then after that you have 20% or so arpen, plus 15% mitigation reduction from WMS on your at-wills and encounters. Ontop of that there is almost 100% uptime on unstoppable.
Love this idea.
Please do not label other player's opinions irrational or in any other way invalid. Everybody has the right to express their opinions. Put yours on the table but do not belittle the opinion of others under any circumstances.
So why not just make it an even playing field while your at it. As soon as you get inside the cap circle, all TAB skills become unusable and if you currently have a buff from one, it gets removed. No 4th encounter for CW, No stealth for TR, no divinity for DC, no unstoppable for GWF and no mark for GF.
Nevermind that all the other classes have skills to remove the TR from the node just by running in there. Or hey, oh thats right, just standing on the node interrupt his cap. Forcing him to either attack you or run off.
If you're a GF/GWF you hunt him down in the circle and kill him if he decides to stay, if you're a CW or DC you KB out of the circle, wasting seconds on his stealth and interrupting his cap, letting it tick back to you.
All stealth does at the node is giving the TR the opening advantage, it doesnt magically make him cap faster or if there are enemies in the circle. I never stealth until enemies come to take it back, it gives me a few extra seconds while they close in, forcing them to go to me. Its tactics.
There are so many ways to counter a TR trying to stealth cap, the easiest is the one I mentioned, run into the circle and force him out or run away. TRs arent hard to spot.
And I do appologize for mixing up guard with mark, mark is just such a horrible skill I never think of it as the tab skill, guard fits the role much better.
When TRs do more damage than an AOE machine GWF in a dungeon (minus boss fights) then something needs to change.
Yes, they can. use impossible to catch, they have dodge and other stuffs...
... It is hard for a GWF to be invited to a party, and every party have 1-2 (Already done FH with 4 tr 1 DC, pretty fast)
Yes, it is the job of a TR to do ST dmg, but the absurd dmg from TR and singularity from CW is enough to make any GWF obsolete... (I'm playing with TR now, all my friends tell me to use a TR instead of GWF in dungeons and I see the reason why...)
I know how the numbers work, and I know how to balance CRT, armor pen, and recovery for both classes, I know which skills to use as well... so as my rogue friend, my party can finish any dungeon easily..., and I see that GWF not necessary and in lots of cases they are carried...
But it i always better to bring a TR in every dungeon, TR and DC are always good (you dont need CW for FH in the current state of the game)
It is sad that I'm not allowed to bring m GWF to dungeons like Spellplague and CN because my friends say that it is detrimental to the team, so I have to use my CW on those
GWF is good for single player dungeons...
Also if you want to do dmg as GWF you must invest in Slam, that is the main DPS in dungeon for GWF, so... recovery and roar are must have.
You don't check it? I don't mind that all tab skills be useless in the cap. I only say, that stealthed TRs don't count as a player inside the cap. He can still sit at the cap in invisible mod, but he don't cap for his team. The bolt is that, what is broken at stealth. If you lose against a GF/GWF with that huge advantage - you see them come and you can attack them - than you have L2P. All ranged attack can do against DC, CW, GF and GWF as they choose to stay at cap in her weakness. The TR don't. Oh the TR is on Cap! YEAH. But i can't hit him. Great! I have to go to close to them - be a 2hitdown -. Nice - not. That's not working for me as intended, that a class have a immunity against all ranged attacks and get his victims as food. If you don't have counter to counter the counter, than L2P to learn one.
@ladysylvia: The thing is, you start with the L2P comments now. It's mindnumbingly easy to kill a TR with a GWF or GF even if they jump you or even get close to jumping you. Cascade of massive damage+control abilites and the rogue is dead without doing anything in return. As I said, TRs are so very easy to spot if you know what to look for. The thing you argue can be argued by a GWF or GF in return when fighting a CW or DC, "great I have to go close to them" since neither fighter have ranged abilites. Do you see them stand around outside circles? No, they use their mechanics to get close, just like a CW or DC can when it comes to a hidden TR capping.
You know the TR is there, obviously unless someone managed to cheat his way to invisibility on another class. And since you know hes there, you will be careful and not waste your skills on nothing. If he starts using CoS follow the knife trail towards his position. If he tries to get close, make sure to have your magic bubble up and he will deal alot less damage. Or maybe you are like one of my friends, complaining he gets killed as a CW, even though he freely ignores to use his bubble?
It also seems like many of you arguing are arguing without taking the patch nerfs to TR into account, you are still stuck in the mind that rogues are as they are on live. This is the PTR forums so comment with the nerfs in mind.