That would pretty much kill the one beauty in the game which is the variety of builds one can do with a single class, and the journey of discovering them. New items and content are nice, but MMO's are more often than not all about strategy and builds. Neverwinter has the means to introduce more of these with their class system, which in turn will increase replayability; building and building more characters to discover new builds and play styles. I don't see any reason why builds that use the materials released and tested by developers themselves which are working as they were designed to work be considered as exploitative. Creativity should not be inhibited because an MMO starts with careful planning.
Just one guy's two cents.
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kingculexMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
That would pretty much kill the one beauty in the game which is the variety of builds one can do with a single class, and the journey of discovering them. New items and content are nice, but MMO's are more often than not all about strategy and builds. Neverwinter has the means to introduce more of these with their class system, which in turn will increase replayability; building and building more characters to discover new builds and play styles. I don't see any reason why builds that use the materials released and tested by developers themselves which are working as they were designed to work be considered as exploitative. Creativity should not be inhibited because an MMO starts with careful planning.
Just one guy's two cents.
You make perfect sense and you make more sense than the other mod that has been posting to this thread. These nerfs decrease the challenge in PVP, increase the PVE challenge till it is almost too hard, and remove the variety in the game by making the classes more similar. Too many people call for this one class or that class to be nerfed in the name of balance when the only way to balance the game is to nerf every class at the same time. In the new balancing update every class received some type of nerf which is only fair. The people who want TRs or a different class nerfed should keep in mind that their class will be nerfed as well to balance the game. Unfortunately, the criers are still going to want this or that nerfed without caring that it might result in their class being nerfed as well.
Every class has advantages and disadvantages. Learn the disadvantages of you class to overcome them. Learn the advantages of your class and the disadvatages of other classes to use them in pvp to win.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
As always it's quite a shock to see a message from a developer, since it's such a rare occurrence on these forums. The community reacts so much better if you at least attempt to reach out and explain your reasoning - and it's the best way to gain some reasonable feedback in return. I miss the kind of semi-regular back-and-forth between the playerbase and the devs, something Community Managers could/should handle.
At-Wills Depleting Stealth
In the end, this change didn't really solve the issues that we wanted it to. There are still some exploitative ways
to play the Rogue that we're looking at, but this change didn't end up solving the core issue and hurt normal (and
creative) gameplay. At-Will powers will no longer deplete your stealth.
As many others, I wonder what your goal is? Because most of us here don't seem to have a problem admitting that the "perma-stealth" during combat is way too overpowered and ideally should not exist at all (especially in PvP). I'd rather you allowed us to remain stealthed for longer during non-combat periods, out in the world, when exploring (the way stealth worked for rogue class historically).
At-Will powers depleting one's stealth meter actually seemed like a great solution. It would put a stop to being able to offload all charges of Cloud of Steel while still remaining stealthed. And a rogue reappearing during CoS bombarding is easy to stop or get away from/line of sight (after all CoS only starts to really hurt if the rogue is not interrupted and manages to get past 50% of the charges).
You had a really good solution to the problem at hand, why back out of it? I don't know what else could you target really. Bait and Switch already has a hefty cooldown, I feel, and it would only hurt those of us who use it for exploration and for avoiding tedious-packs-of-mobs-which-respawn-too-*******-fast.
Since I never bothered with a "perma-stealth" build, I don't know the specifics. Is Shadow Strike ever used? Is the Invisible Infiltrator passive a part of the tactics? Are these the things you could target, or is there anything else you could have a closer look at?
It would be tough to argue that Lurker's Assault didn't need some re-tuning. The damage bonus on it was just too extreme for both PVE and PVP. That said, the change to crit severity ended up being a bit too weak and favored certain feat builds too much. Lurker's Assault 5/10/15% crit severity has been replaced with 15/20/25% damage and the duration is back to 10 seconds.
Good that you saw the light eventually; too bad that it's still rather dimmed over there. Crit Severity for Lurker's Assault never made sense (hurting the non-crit builds that much), so hopefully this kind of "inventive redesigning" is behind us.
I certainly agree that the 60% damage buff was too generous, as much as I loved it. But I'm not convinced that nerfing it down to 25% isn't way too severe. Personally I wish that you guys utilized an approach of small steps, and handled things one step a time.
Let me give you an example: Lurker's Assault being too powerful at 20%/40/60%? Fine, lower it down. But go with 15%/30%/45% to start with. Give it a few weeks, see how it feels. If it's still looks too potent, then take another step with 10%/20%/30%. Wait and observe the changes again as you gather your feedback, then decide if it's in a good place or whether any further tuning is necessary.
The above approach is pretty much what I would like to see when it comes to any bigger class changes. I consider it much better than any sudden and drastic alterations to the game that completely change the status quo and only risk breaking whatever works.
Cloud of Steel: This power now has 8 maximum charges, down from 12.
And what is happening to Cloud of Steel in the end, is the above change still making it through?
For what it's worth, I found it to be pretty terrible - especially for PvE. Using CoS is only really worth it if you can make it past at least 50% of the charges and not change your target in the process/have it run out of range or enter LoS/become interrupted. Otherwise it mostly tickles, with the initial daggers doing laughable damage.
I don't think I would bother using it in PvE if such a huge nerf came through without compensating in any way for the massive loss of damage.
I would still use it in PvP, given rogue's almost non-existant ranged capabilities (aside from being pigeonholed into Deft Strike in order to reach wizards when you are not in stealth, there really isn't much else in terms of options), but I have a feeling it wouldn't amount to much. I find it fairly easy to avoid CoS bombarding both on my cleric and my wizard, due to the knowledge that comes from playing a rogue and knowing the skill's limitations. With this change (and LA no longer giving it a huge 60% damage buff) I don't think I would even have to bother - it will be easy to shrug it off.
Once again, I wish a different approach had been taken here. If you really have to, then first lower the charges to 10 and see how it works. Only then consider whether another pass is needed.
And quite frankly, there are better ways to tinker with CoS than reducing the amount of charges (targetting the jumping-while-throwing issue was one of such). You could slightly decrease the damage of the final stacks in the dagger chain, you could slow down the casting animation and make it less dangerous as a result, finally you could even increase the time it takes for a stack of CoS to refresh (say from 3 seconds to 4).
The most straightforward alterations often aren't the best, especially if such a heavyhanded approach is being taken. Here is hoping that you continue to listen to what people have to say - primarily those who play and have played more than one class and who at least try to remain objective and not campaign for nerfs to whatever isn't theirs favorite.
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kingculexMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
At-Will powers depleting one's stealth meter actually seemed like a great solution. It would put a stop to being able to offload all charges of Cloud of Steel while still remaining stealthed. And a rogue reappearing during CoS bombarding is easy to stop or get away from/line of sight (after all CoS only starts to really hurt if the rogue is not interrupted and manages to get past 50% of the charges).
You made a pretty good post and I will be honest that I tested both nerfs out on the preview shard. The original nerf and the revised nerf. In this game rogues are made to be able to attack while stealthed. The encounter powers, most do knock a rogue out of stealth, would not receive a bonus from stealth if a rouge was not meant to be able to fight in stealth. Stealth is also meant to be defensive as well since rogues do not have high defenses. In a way the ability of the rogue to kill stuff with high dps is defensive because a rogue can not be hurt by something that is dead. Adding this nerf would basically be like a nerf making GWFs unstoppable not work while the GWF is fighting or make it to were the GF is unable to fight at all while behind his shield or make it to were the GF could not use the shield as a weapon. The original nerf was so bad it would basically make all TRs use the perma stealth build to get any real use out of stealth. The nerfs to CoS and Lurker's assault will hurt perma stealth build rogues. The devs could have nerfed the gear, powers, and feats that helped make the perma stealth rogue possible.
Ways the devs could attack perma stealth builds without gutting the class:
1. Remove the bonus stealth from the gear. (They do rework gear after it is released.)
2. Add to the cool down timer for the powers that fill the stealth bar. (Would affect everyone but would mainly hurt perma stealths.)
3. Make the powers only fill 50% to 75% of 100% of stealth. (Would affect everyone but would mainly hurt perma stealth.)
4. Make the Twilight Adapt feet 5% instead of 10%. (Would affect everyone but would mainly hurt perma stealth.)
5. Make Improved Cunning Sneak 10% instead of 20%. (Would affect everyone but would mainly hurt perma stealth.)
These are just five other ways the devs could have attacked perma stealth rogues instead of using the At-Wills nerf. There are probably more ways the devs could attack the perma stealth build without severely hurting everyone who uses the class. The only thing that really makes perma stealth rogues deadly is the tenebrous enchantments because perma stealth rogues sacrifice dps to stay in stealth. Stealth rogues can still be killed if a player has the knowledge to do it. I wish we really did know what the devs were planning.
Every class has advantages and disadvantages. Learn the disadvantages of you class to overcome them. Learn the advantages of your class and the disadvatages of other classes to use them in pvp to win.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
You made a pretty good post and I will be honest that I tested both nerfs out on the preview shard. The original nerf and the revised nerf. In this game rogues are made to be able to attack while stealthed. The encounter powers, most do knock a rogue out of stealth, would not receive a bonus from stealth if a rouge was not meant to be able to fight in stealth. Stealth is also meant to be defensive as well since rogues do not have high defenses. In a way the ability of the rogue to kill stuff with high dps is defensive because a rogue can not be hurt by something that is dead. Adding this nerf would basically be like a nerf making GWFs unstoppable not work while the GWF is fighting or make it to were the GF is unable to fight at all while behind his shield or make it to were the GF could not use the shield as a weapon. The original nerf was so bad it would basically make all TRs use the perma stealth build to get any real use out of stealth. The nerfs to CoS and Lurker's assault will hurt perma stealth build rogues. The devs could have nerfed the gear, powers, and feats that helped make the perma stealth rogue possible.
Ways the devs could attack perma stealth builds without gutting the class:
1. Remove the bonus stealth from the gear. (They do rework gear after it is released.)
2. Add to the cool down timer for the powers that fill the stealth bar. (Would affect everyone but would mainly hurt perma stealths.)
3. Make the powers only fill 50% to 75% of 100% of stealth. (Would affect everyone but would mainly hurt perma stealth.)
4. Make the Twilight Adapt feet 5% instead of 10%. (Would affect everyone but would mainly hurt perma stealth.)
5. Make Improved Cunning Sneak 10% instead of 20%. (Would affect everyone but would mainly hurt perma stealth.)
These are just five other ways the devs could have attacked perma stealth rogues instead of using the At-Wills nerf. There are probably more ways the devs could attack the perma stealth build without severely hurting everyone who uses the class. The only thing that really makes perma stealth rogues deadly is the tenebrous enchantments because perma stealth rogues sacrifice dps to stay in stealth. Stealth rogues can still be killed if a player has the knowledge to do it. I wish we really did know what the devs were planning.
Or they could have just tacked 5 seconds onto the bait and switch cooldown and been done with it. I find it odd nobody has mentioned them nerfing power effects on some encounters and at wills seeing as how that was our only saving grace given us after the last gutting. Now that will be gone LA is being reduced to garbage, and it will be impossible to set up and maintain a good bleed to boot. I'm frankly astounded by the nerfs to all classes. They seem dead set on nerfing the game down to the point where it will be mind numbing and boring for anyone with an IQ over 5.
Simple and less challenge in pvp do not appeal to me. I play all 5 classes and a large majority of these changes just make no sense at all. Games not even remotely as unbalanced as these poorly thought out changes would imply. I'm not just speaking of the TR changes either.
I would rather see them limit tenebrous to 1 only , heck for that matter add an extra slot on main hand where it could be slotted even. Get rid of the tenebrous stacking and a lot of the nerf cries would vanish over night , not all mind you, but a large portion of them would.
I give the majority of these new changes a big THUMBS DOWN!!! Not just the TR ones either...
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kingculexMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Or they could have just tacked 5 seconds onto the bait and switch cooldown and been done with it. I find it odd nobody has mentioned them nerfing power effects on some encounters and at wills seeing as how that was our only saving grace given us after the last gutting. Now that will be gone LA is being reduced to garbage, and it will be impossible to set up and maintain a good bleed to boot. I'm frankly astounded by the nerfs to all classes. They seem dead set on nerfing the game down to the point where it will be mind numbing and boring for anyone with an IQ over 5.
Simple and less challenge in pvp do not appeal to me. I play all 5 classes and a large majority of these changes just make no sense at all. Games not even remotely as unbalanced as these poorly thought out changes would imply. I'm not just speaking of the TR changes either.
I would rather see them limit tenebrous to 1 only , heck for that matter add an extra slot on main hand where it could be slotted even. Get rid of the tenebrous stacking and a lot of the nerf cries would vanish over night , not all mind you, but a large portion of them would.
I give the majority of these new changes a big THUMBS DOWN!!! Not just the TR ones either...
I already suggested adding to the cool down timer. You are correct the nerfs are completely idiotic. Blame the cry babies with low IQs that are too stupid or lazy to learn to play. The cry babies blew any unbalance that existed between the classes out of portion and it resulted in these radical nerfs to every class. I bet most of them will still be calling for more nerfs even after this one goes live because they are too stupid to realize that nerfs will probably occur to every class and not just they one they want to ruin. There was an adult playing as a GWF in my guild, he starts crying for nerfs after he got beat in PVP, he had green gear at lvl 60, and I simply argued against nerfs. He was mainly attacking TRs and wanting them nerfed. Guess what he did? He logged off for two hours, logged back in, unfriended everyone in the guild, and left the guild without even saying two words to anyone. I would have apologized if I hurt his feelings if he had said anything but he did not at all. Everyone in the guild was shocked that witnessed our minor argument and told me there would have been no reason to apologize because I simply spoke my mind like he did. I would only expect his type of response from a little child. He also makes a prime example of the cry babies that would rather cry instead of facing a challenge.
Every class has advantages and disadvantages. Learn the disadvantages of you class to overcome them. Learn the advantages of your class and the disadvatages of other classes to use them in pvp to win.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
Agreed with the above posts and previous post in regards to perma stealth builds. Frankly they are waaayy too powerful for the game, to maintain 100% stealth is down right ridiculous it's practically God Mode because the enemies cannot see the TR or fight back making it easy to 1 versus 5 and win without getting hit once.
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kingculexMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Agreed with the above posts and previous post in regards to perma stealth builds. Frankly they are waaayy too powerful for the game, to maintain 100% stealth is down right ridiculous it's practically God Mode because the enemies cannot see the TR or fight back making it easy to 1 versus 5 and win without getting hit once.
Thank you, you helped make my decision. I just finished testing a new crit build on the preview shard that stays in stealth 75%-100% of the time. All the complaining and all the nerfs made me think of trying to make one. Picture a TR that stays in stealth and using gloaming cut to do regular attacks of 4k-10k and criticals up to 20k. Mind you this is just with the AT-Will gloaming cut without lurker's assault. Generally stealth TRs are lower dps but it is shockingly easy to do this with a TR that is geared for power/criticals. I may leave this build on the preview shard or I may make it on the live shard once the changes go live. Perma stealth are here to stay until the devs really take an interest in stopping them without gutting the entire class. There are always ways to attack TRs that are in stealth but too many people are too stupid or lazy to learn them it seems.
Every class has advantages and disadvantages. Learn the disadvantages of you class to overcome them. Learn the advantages of your class and the disadvatages of other classes to use them in pvp to win.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
There are always ways to attack TRs that are in stealth but too many people are too stupid or lazy to learn them it seems.
I think permastealth isn't that much of a problem, you just need to pay attention to the blue circle at your feet, it's a bit of a radar. Especially when they fix the hopping-throw, TR's will be more easily found and killed.
I'm a user of Gloaming Cut and Duelist's Fury in PVP. And I tell you guys, the experience with playing against real players, intelligent and has their a-game on, is completely different to testing it on the preview shard. They will hunt you down until there's nothing left on your HP bar. Which is precisely why the PVP Permastealth uses Cloud of Steel, to keep their distance from the enemy. And now CoS has been impaired quite severely together with the PVP Permastealth build's DPS.
And I have to disagree with this recent statement by freshoutlaw. It's impossible to do a 1 vs. 5 unless you're a Sentinel GWF. For a permastealth to do 1 vs. 5 post patch and win against all 5 where CoS is highly limited, he'd sooner die with AoE's flying everywhere and 5 people on a witch hunt for your silhouette. People can most definitely see and target us even while we're on stealth. But once we are found, we have no means to escape most specially if we're facing more than 2 enemies at once.
I've been using Gloaming Cut in PVP for a long time now. It takes time and effort to bring someone to zero HP using Gloaming Cut, because you risk being CC-ed, prone-d, and ganked when you are in melee range of your enemies. And this is basically the weakness of permastealth; risks. One CC can spell death. Cloud of Steel + Tenebrous Enchantments reduced these risks, but now CoS just isn't that reliable anymore. Gloaming Cut is semi-ranged which is nice. I tend to dodge immediately after doing one or two hits with Gloaming Cut to increase the range and then the kiting begins again.
We are Trickster Rogues. Stealth builds in general are merely following the "trickster" path for TR's. We can be DPS beatsticks if we wished, but variety and calculated planning is what makes a game fun and not the numbers we create by pressing buttons.
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percefusMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
And I have to disagree with this recent misinformation by freshoutlaw. It's impossible to do a 1 vs. 5 unless you're a Sentinel GWF. For a permastealth to do 1 vs. 5 post patch where CoS is highly limited, he'd sooner die with AoE's flying everywhere and 5 people on a witch hunt for your silhouette. People can most definitely see and target us even while we're on stealth. But once we are found, we have no means to escape most specially if we're facing more than 2 enemies at once.
QFT!
It's so much easier to complain and spread misinformation and call for nerfs than it is to learn the skill set to detect and counter perma-stealth rogues or for that matter any classes abilities....
If you want to compete at a high level you need knowledge of all classes skills and counters. Just taking a highly geared char into pvp will not get you anywhere but dead without that knowledge! Learning takes time and effort, it is far easier to whine and complain and call for nerfs and sadly that is just what most people do, at least those that take pvp gameplay for granted when going against those that have taken that time to gain that needed knowledge.
We are Trickster Rogues. Stealth builds in general are merely following the "trickster" path for TR's. We can be DPS beatsticks if we wished, but variety and calculated planning is what makes a game fun and not the numbers we create by pressing buttons.
Are we ?
I mean nerf after nerf seems to have stripped and altered this class into something that only slightly resembles a trickster rogue, if left up to those whom seem incapable or unwilling to understand the basics needed for competitive pvp gameplay, I am afraid for this classes competitive pvp future in game as well as pve and I mean that seriously!
A Proud Member Of THE 300 Guild - Tene's are nothing but P2W, Nerf or Remove please!
I mean nerf after nerf seems to have stripped and altered this class into something that only slightly resembles a trickster rogue, if left up to those whom seem incapable or unwilling to understand the basics needed for competitive pvp gameplay, I am afraid for this classes competitive pvp future in game as well as pve and I mean that seriously!
Well yes, we still are - but only in PvE and even then only when specced and played well. We've been destroyed in PvP to the point where I use my GF or CW in PvP because it's just not worth it with the TR anymore. PvP is a hot mess for TR's and most DC's (I'm just not that great with my DC yet, but have seen a few who seem to live forever without cheating), and it just became much harder for GWF's.
Part of the challenge is that we're very limited in all classes to a single paragon path and relatively few viable builds. I hope that we see multiple new paragon paths very soon so that there is more diversity in playstyle. PvP at this point is the domain of kids whose sole goal is killing other players to feel like they're the toughest kids around.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
And this is the reason we don't allow necro threads. The information in such threads may be outdated or irrelevant. Necro threads aren't auto-locked so please do not use "it was still open so it's valid" as an excuse. Rules of Conduct prohibit necro posting. Period.
ROLL TIDE ROLL
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PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com
Comments
Just one guy's two cents.
You make perfect sense and you make more sense than the other mod that has been posting to this thread. These nerfs decrease the challenge in PVP, increase the PVE challenge till it is almost too hard, and remove the variety in the game by making the classes more similar. Too many people call for this one class or that class to be nerfed in the name of balance when the only way to balance the game is to nerf every class at the same time. In the new balancing update every class received some type of nerf which is only fair. The people who want TRs or a different class nerfed should keep in mind that their class will be nerfed as well to balance the game. Unfortunately, the criers are still going to want this or that nerfed without caring that it might result in their class being nerfed as well.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
As always it's quite a shock to see a message from a developer, since it's such a rare occurrence on these forums. The community reacts so much better if you at least attempt to reach out and explain your reasoning - and it's the best way to gain some reasonable feedback in return. I miss the kind of semi-regular back-and-forth between the playerbase and the devs, something Community Managers could/should handle.
As many others, I wonder what your goal is? Because most of us here don't seem to have a problem admitting that the "perma-stealth" during combat is way too overpowered and ideally should not exist at all (especially in PvP). I'd rather you allowed us to remain stealthed for longer during non-combat periods, out in the world, when exploring (the way stealth worked for rogue class historically).
At-Will powers depleting one's stealth meter actually seemed like a great solution. It would put a stop to being able to offload all charges of Cloud of Steel while still remaining stealthed. And a rogue reappearing during CoS bombarding is easy to stop or get away from/line of sight (after all CoS only starts to really hurt if the rogue is not interrupted and manages to get past 50% of the charges).
You had a really good solution to the problem at hand, why back out of it? I don't know what else could you target really. Bait and Switch already has a hefty cooldown, I feel, and it would only hurt those of us who use it for exploration and for avoiding tedious-packs-of-mobs-which-respawn-too-*******-fast.
Since I never bothered with a "perma-stealth" build, I don't know the specifics. Is Shadow Strike ever used? Is the Invisible Infiltrator passive a part of the tactics? Are these the things you could target, or is there anything else you could have a closer look at?
Good that you saw the light eventually; too bad that it's still rather dimmed over there. Crit Severity for Lurker's Assault never made sense (hurting the non-crit builds that much), so hopefully this kind of "inventive redesigning" is behind us.
I certainly agree that the 60% damage buff was too generous, as much as I loved it. But I'm not convinced that nerfing it down to 25% isn't way too severe. Personally I wish that you guys utilized an approach of small steps, and handled things one step a time.
Let me give you an example: Lurker's Assault being too powerful at 20%/40/60%? Fine, lower it down. But go with 15%/30%/45% to start with. Give it a few weeks, see how it feels. If it's still looks too potent, then take another step with 10%/20%/30%. Wait and observe the changes again as you gather your feedback, then decide if it's in a good place or whether any further tuning is necessary.
The above approach is pretty much what I would like to see when it comes to any bigger class changes. I consider it much better than any sudden and drastic alterations to the game that completely change the status quo and only risk breaking whatever works.
And what is happening to Cloud of Steel in the end, is the above change still making it through?
For what it's worth, I found it to be pretty terrible - especially for PvE. Using CoS is only really worth it if you can make it past at least 50% of the charges and not change your target in the process/have it run out of range or enter LoS/become interrupted. Otherwise it mostly tickles, with the initial daggers doing laughable damage.
I don't think I would bother using it in PvE if such a huge nerf came through without compensating in any way for the massive loss of damage.
I would still use it in PvP, given rogue's almost non-existant ranged capabilities (aside from being pigeonholed into Deft Strike in order to reach wizards when you are not in stealth, there really isn't much else in terms of options), but I have a feeling it wouldn't amount to much. I find it fairly easy to avoid CoS bombarding both on my cleric and my wizard, due to the knowledge that comes from playing a rogue and knowing the skill's limitations. With this change (and LA no longer giving it a huge 60% damage buff) I don't think I would even have to bother - it will be easy to shrug it off.
Once again, I wish a different approach had been taken here. If you really have to, then first lower the charges to 10 and see how it works. Only then consider whether another pass is needed.
And quite frankly, there are better ways to tinker with CoS than reducing the amount of charges (targetting the jumping-while-throwing issue was one of such). You could slightly decrease the damage of the final stacks in the dagger chain, you could slow down the casting animation and make it less dangerous as a result, finally you could even increase the time it takes for a stack of CoS to refresh (say from 3 seconds to 4).
The most straightforward alterations often aren't the best, especially if such a heavyhanded approach is being taken. Here is hoping that you continue to listen to what people have to say - primarily those who play and have played more than one class and who at least try to remain objective and not campaign for nerfs to whatever isn't theirs favorite.
You made a pretty good post and I will be honest that I tested both nerfs out on the preview shard. The original nerf and the revised nerf. In this game rogues are made to be able to attack while stealthed. The encounter powers, most do knock a rogue out of stealth, would not receive a bonus from stealth if a rouge was not meant to be able to fight in stealth. Stealth is also meant to be defensive as well since rogues do not have high defenses. In a way the ability of the rogue to kill stuff with high dps is defensive because a rogue can not be hurt by something that is dead. Adding this nerf would basically be like a nerf making GWFs unstoppable not work while the GWF is fighting or make it to were the GF is unable to fight at all while behind his shield or make it to were the GF could not use the shield as a weapon. The original nerf was so bad it would basically make all TRs use the perma stealth build to get any real use out of stealth. The nerfs to CoS and Lurker's assault will hurt perma stealth build rogues. The devs could have nerfed the gear, powers, and feats that helped make the perma stealth rogue possible.
Ways the devs could attack perma stealth builds without gutting the class:
1. Remove the bonus stealth from the gear. (They do rework gear after it is released.)
2. Add to the cool down timer for the powers that fill the stealth bar. (Would affect everyone but would mainly hurt perma stealths.)
3. Make the powers only fill 50% to 75% of 100% of stealth. (Would affect everyone but would mainly hurt perma stealth.)
4. Make the Twilight Adapt feet 5% instead of 10%. (Would affect everyone but would mainly hurt perma stealth.)
5. Make Improved Cunning Sneak 10% instead of 20%. (Would affect everyone but would mainly hurt perma stealth.)
These are just five other ways the devs could have attacked perma stealth rogues instead of using the At-Wills nerf. There are probably more ways the devs could attack the perma stealth build without severely hurting everyone who uses the class. The only thing that really makes perma stealth rogues deadly is the tenebrous enchantments because perma stealth rogues sacrifice dps to stay in stealth. Stealth rogues can still be killed if a player has the knowledge to do it. I wish we really did know what the devs were planning.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
Or they could have just tacked 5 seconds onto the bait and switch cooldown and been done with it. I find it odd nobody has mentioned them nerfing power effects on some encounters and at wills seeing as how that was our only saving grace given us after the last gutting. Now that will be gone LA is being reduced to garbage, and it will be impossible to set up and maintain a good bleed to boot. I'm frankly astounded by the nerfs to all classes. They seem dead set on nerfing the game down to the point where it will be mind numbing and boring for anyone with an IQ over 5.
Simple and less challenge in pvp do not appeal to me. I play all 5 classes and a large majority of these changes just make no sense at all. Games not even remotely as unbalanced as these poorly thought out changes would imply. I'm not just speaking of the TR changes either.
I would rather see them limit tenebrous to 1 only , heck for that matter add an extra slot on main hand where it could be slotted even. Get rid of the tenebrous stacking and a lot of the nerf cries would vanish over night , not all mind you, but a large portion of them would.
I give the majority of these new changes a big THUMBS DOWN!!! Not just the TR ones either...
I already suggested adding to the cool down timer. You are correct the nerfs are completely idiotic. Blame the cry babies with low IQs that are too stupid or lazy to learn to play. The cry babies blew any unbalance that existed between the classes out of portion and it resulted in these radical nerfs to every class. I bet most of them will still be calling for more nerfs even after this one goes live because they are too stupid to realize that nerfs will probably occur to every class and not just they one they want to ruin. There was an adult playing as a GWF in my guild, he starts crying for nerfs after he got beat in PVP, he had green gear at lvl 60, and I simply argued against nerfs. He was mainly attacking TRs and wanting them nerfed. Guess what he did? He logged off for two hours, logged back in, unfriended everyone in the guild, and left the guild without even saying two words to anyone. I would have apologized if I hurt his feelings if he had said anything but he did not at all. Everyone in the guild was shocked that witnessed our minor argument and told me there would have been no reason to apologize because I simply spoke my mind like he did. I would only expect his type of response from a little child. He also makes a prime example of the cry babies that would rather cry instead of facing a challenge.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
Thank you, you helped make my decision. I just finished testing a new crit build on the preview shard that stays in stealth 75%-100% of the time. All the complaining and all the nerfs made me think of trying to make one. Picture a TR that stays in stealth and using gloaming cut to do regular attacks of 4k-10k and criticals up to 20k. Mind you this is just with the AT-Will gloaming cut without lurker's assault. Generally stealth TRs are lower dps but it is shockingly easy to do this with a TR that is geared for power/criticals. I may leave this build on the preview shard or I may make it on the live shard once the changes go live. Perma stealth are here to stay until the devs really take an interest in stopping them without gutting the entire class. There are always ways to attack TRs that are in stealth but too many people are too stupid or lazy to learn them it seems.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
I think permastealth isn't that much of a problem, you just need to pay attention to the blue circle at your feet, it's a bit of a radar. Especially when they fix the hopping-throw, TR's will be more easily found and killed.
And I have to disagree with this recent statement by freshoutlaw. It's impossible to do a 1 vs. 5 unless you're a Sentinel GWF. For a permastealth to do 1 vs. 5 post patch and win against all 5 where CoS is highly limited, he'd sooner die with AoE's flying everywhere and 5 people on a witch hunt for your silhouette. People can most definitely see and target us even while we're on stealth. But once we are found, we have no means to escape most specially if we're facing more than 2 enemies at once.
I've been using Gloaming Cut in PVP for a long time now. It takes time and effort to bring someone to zero HP using Gloaming Cut, because you risk being CC-ed, prone-d, and ganked when you are in melee range of your enemies. And this is basically the weakness of permastealth; risks. One CC can spell death. Cloud of Steel + Tenebrous Enchantments reduced these risks, but now CoS just isn't that reliable anymore. Gloaming Cut is semi-ranged which is nice. I tend to dodge immediately after doing one or two hits with Gloaming Cut to increase the range and then the kiting begins again.
We are Trickster Rogues. Stealth builds in general are merely following the "trickster" path for TR's. We can be DPS beatsticks if we wished, but variety and calculated planning is what makes a game fun and not the numbers we create by pressing buttons.
QFT!
It's so much easier to complain and spread misinformation and call for nerfs than it is to learn the skill set to detect and counter perma-stealth rogues or for that matter any classes abilities....
If you want to compete at a high level you need knowledge of all classes skills and counters. Just taking a highly geared char into pvp will not get you anywhere but dead without that knowledge! Learning takes time and effort, it is far easier to whine and complain and call for nerfs and sadly that is just what most people do, at least those that take pvp gameplay for granted when going against those that have taken that time to gain that needed knowledge.
Are we ?
I mean nerf after nerf seems to have stripped and altered this class into something that only slightly resembles a trickster rogue, if left up to those whom seem incapable or unwilling to understand the basics needed for competitive pvp gameplay, I am afraid for this classes competitive pvp future in game as well as pve and I mean that seriously!
A Proud Member Of THE 300 Guild - Tene's are nothing but P2W, Nerf or Remove please!
Well yes, we still are - but only in PvE and even then only when specced and played well. We've been destroyed in PvP to the point where I use my GF or CW in PvP because it's just not worth it with the TR anymore. PvP is a hot mess for TR's and most DC's (I'm just not that great with my DC yet, but have seen a few who seem to live forever without cheating), and it just became much harder for GWF's.
Part of the challenge is that we're very limited in all classes to a single paragon path and relatively few viable builds. I hope that we see multiple new paragon paths very soon so that there is more diversity in playstyle. PvP at this point is the domain of kids whose sole goal is killing other players to feel like they're the toughest kids around.
Great Weapon Fighter: Because when is today not a good day to die?
PC and PS4 player. Proud Guildmaster for PS4 Team Fencebane. Rank 5 Officer for PC Team Fencebane. Visit us at http://fencebane.shivtr.com