@Thalesamr: GWF is not a striker class, so shouldnt be able to do the same dps as a striker class. And yes, the TR "can" use ItC, at which point he just replaced a dps skill or smokebomb. The GWF can take the hit straight up, pop unstoppable and be alright. The high amount of damage the TR does in combo with singu is possible with a GWF too. But the key thing is, the TR can only go as a striker a.k.a dps in dungeons. A GWF has 2-3x the mitigation of a TR, along with high deflection. I've never spent a point in Slam, I use slam as it is for AoE, thats it, the 25% power is a total waste. I also dont use Roar, since determination is easily built by just taking a hit. Recovery is no issue, since it gives you Arpen aswell, you invest in recovery instead of arpen gems etc. I dont see how you can expect to gain the dps of a striker class when you are a hybrid, it's just how the game is designed, you pay for your passive survivability through lowered dps. You are still one of the 2 deadliest foes in a BG, since overall damage doesnt matter there, only burst.
@ladysylvia: The thing is, you start with the L2P comments now. It's mindnumbingly easy to kill a TR with a GWF or GF even if they jump you or even get close to jumping you. Cascade of massive damage+control abilites and the rogue is dead without doing anything in return. As I said, TRs are so very easy to spot if you know what to look for. The thing you argue can be argued by a GWF or GF in return when fighting a CW or DC, "great I have to go close to them" since neither fighter have ranged abilites. Do you see them stand around outside circles? No, they use their mechanics to get close, just like a CW or DC can when it comes to a hidden TR capping.
You know the TR is there, obviously unless someone managed to cheat his way to invisibility on another class. And since you know hes there, you will be careful and not waste your skills on nothing. If he starts using CoS follow the knife trail towards his position. If he tries to get close, make sure to have your magic bubble up and he will deal alot less damage. Or maybe you are like one of my friends, complaining he gets killed as a CW, even though he freely ignores to use his bubble?
It also seems like many of you arguing are arguing without taking the patch nerfs to TR into account, you are still stuck in the mind that rogues are as they are on live. This is the PTR forums so comment with the nerfs in mind.
GWF is a striker, if you buy a gwf companion (sellsword) you will see that he is classified as a striker... GWF is not a tank, he cant agro very well if he goes pure defense, or even worse he cant agro without being near the mob... Tank is GF
if he goes dmg he wont survive enough to tank all mobs as well
where did you came with GWF not being a striker... you just need to see that in a solo queue if you are a GWF you are going to wait a long time because it competes with rogues.. while GF is way faster...
AOE dmg is not so good, because you have singularity... even so TR has dmg enough to easily kill one by one...,if GWF is not a striker and he is not a tank... what is he? Useless
And it is really easy to find party for DD as a GWF... not.
When I say tank, i mean defender
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t3hwh173f0xMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2013
Well it's good to see that you guys aren't killing the TR.
However I would like to know, do you plan on fixing the perma-stealth exploit? It is the only problem with the TR at the moment, I must say.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited August 2013
Nobody likes nerfs...
But they have to happen. Simply buffing other features isn't the best solution all the time.
That would basically cause game balance inflation or more aptly called "Power Creep."
Like it or not sometimes the best course of action will be to tone down features of certain content.
And sadly the problem with the proposed changes is still unresolved. Clerics and Wizards will still die to Permastealth rogues who stay back and use CoS....That was always the problem...and will remain the problem...less damage is nice, t'll take them longer to kill me, but we will still have no way to target and retaliate against permastealth rogues before we die...
And no matter how you try to sell that the mechanic is broken.
But they have to happen. Simply buffing other features isn't the best solution all the time.
That would basically cause game balance inflation or more aptly called "Power Creep."
Like it or not sometimes the best course of action will be to tone down features of certain content.
And sadly the problem with the proposed changes is still unresolved. Clerics and Wizards will still die to Permastealth rogues who stay back and use CoS....That was always the problem...and will remain the problem...less damage is nice, t'll take them longer to kill me, but we will still have no way to target and retaliate against permastealth rogues before we die...
And no matter how you try to sell that the mechanic is broken.
Let see ways to fix permastealth rouges.
!. Make Bait&switch refill 75% of the stealth meter or 50% instead of 100%
2. Make Shadow Strike refill 75% of the stealth meter or 50% instead of 100%. - Increase the damage of Shadow Strike.
3. Nerf the gear that gives a bonus to stealth.
The number of permastealths is actually low compared to the rest of the TR community. There is no point in hurting the entire community because of a few individuals. Every class has its advantages and disadvantages. TRs are weak to GFs and GWfs. TRs are strong against Clerics and CWs. When it comes to stealth+CoS you can:
1. Move away.
2. Survive long enough for your team to get involved.
3. Learn to watch for trajectory and track it, so you know where the stealth TR is and attack.
4. Dodge. it is difficult but people do it all the time.
No matter how you try to sell it, it still seems to be a learn to play issue. All these nerfs together is a very bad idea.
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kantazo1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited August 2013
Maybe the cool down for permastealth needs to be look into it but nerfing the TR is punishing those of us who play the class without abusing the permastealth.
Seek and ye shall find. Yeshua
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
1. Move away.
2. Survive long enough for your team to get involved.
3. Learn to watch for trajectory and track it, so you know where the stealth TR is and attack.
4. Dodge. it is difficult but people do it all the time.
No matter how you try to sell it, it still seems to be a learn to play issue. All these nerfs together is a very bad idea.
Lets see what I have in my TR's repertoire to deal with your painfully obvious offerings to counter.
1. How about I use sneak attack running 30% faster in stealth and plus twilight adept for 10% stealth restore on dodge. Perhaps speed swindle for 10% speed snare + 10% speed boost on crit. I don't see them escaping my range.
2. Essentially saying run away to you buddies or when the buddies show up. I simply walk away or wait for my buddies in the safety of stealth.
3. Sweet CW or DC is tracking where I am and moving towards me. I am after all a f#$&ing melee class.
4. Please waste all your stamina on dodging my CoS as I line up my encounters that you will be unable to avoid, and get dropped like a bad habit. GG
If you don't realize the painfully obvious counters I offered to your counters, then perhaps it is a learn to play issue and it's no wonder you feel the way you do.
Lets see what I have in my TR's repertoire to deal with your painfully obvious offerings to counter.
1. How about I use sneak attack running 30% faster in stealth and plus twilight adept for 10% stealth restore on dodge. Perhaps speed swindle for 10% speed snare + 10% speed boost on crit. I don't see them escaping my range.
2. Essentially saying run away to you buddies or when the buddies show up. I simply walk away or wait for my buddies in the safety of stealth.
3. Sweet CW or DC is tracking where I am and moving towards me. I am after all a f#$&ing melee class.
4. Please waste all your stamina on dodging my CoS as I line up my encounters that you will be unable to avoid, and get dropped like a bad habit. GG
If you don't realize the painfully obvious counters I offered to your counters, then perhaps it is a learn to play issue and it's no wonder you feel the way you do.
Painfully obvious you are trying to change the subject again. The subject was dying from CoS+Stealth if you bothered to read my post. Wait, you do not even bother reading other people's posts and get away with belittling other people's opinion.
1. How about I use sneak attack running 30% faster in stealth and plus twilight adept for 10% stealth restore on dodge. Perhaps speed swindle for 10% speed snare + 10% speed boost on crit. I don't see them escaping my range. <- The individual dies from something else and not CoS+Stealth from a stealth Rogue.
2. Essentially saying run away to you buddies or when the buddies show up. I simply walk away or wait for my buddies in the safety of stealth. <- You already do what I suggest and that is to survive till your buddies show up.
3. Sweet CW or DC is tracking where I am and moving towards me. I am after all a f#$&ing melee class. <-The CW or DC does not die from CoS+Stealth.
4. Please waste all your stamina on dodging my CoS as I line up my encounters that you will be unable to avoid, and get dropped like a bad habit. GG <- The individual dies from something else and not CoS+Stealth from a stealth Rogue.
It is painfully obvious you would rather attack other people's opinions, basically troll them, instead of first reading them. Oh wait, I should have put them in colors.
Maybe the cool down for permastealth needs to be look into it but nerfing the TR is punishing those of us who play the class without abusing the permastealth.
You are correct. There are other ways to fix the permastealth TR issue.
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Painfully obvious you are trying to change the subject again. The subject was dying from CoS+Stealth if you bothered to read my post. Wait, you do not even bother reading other people's posts and get away with belittling other people's opinion.
1. How about I use sneak attack running 30% faster in stealth and plus twilight adept for 10% stealth restore on dodge. Perhaps speed swindle for 10% speed snare + 10% speed boost on crit. I don't see them escaping my range. <- The individual dies from something else and not CoS+Stealth from a stealth Rogue.
2. Essentially saying run away to you buddies or when the buddies show up. I simply walk away or wait for my buddies in the safety of stealth. <- You already do what I suggest and that is to survive till your buddies show up.
3. Sweet CW or DC is tracking where I am and moving towards me. I am after all a f#$&ing melee class. <-The CW or DC does not die from CoS+Stealth.
4. Please waste all your stamina on dodging my CoS as I line up my encounters that you will be unable to avoid, and get dropped like a bad habit. GG <- The individual dies from something else and not CoS+Stealth from a stealth Rogue.
It is painfully obvious you would rather attack other people's opinions, basically troll them, instead of first reading them. Oh wait, I should have put them in colors.
So because CoS+stealth only created or lead to the situation where the person was handily defeated with little to no means of defending themselves. It makes it okay. Lol, alrighty then. You seem upset that I point out the possible flaws in your opinion by looking at both sides of the scenario. I apologize if me doing so makes you feel belittled. But I believe you were the one implying that people that don't agree with your opinion need to learn to play.
So because CoS+stealth only created or lead to the situation where the person was handily defeated with little to no means of defending themselves. It makes it okay. Lol, alrighty then. You seem upset that I point out the possible flaws in your opinion by looking at both sides of the scenario. I apologize if me doing so makes you feel belittled. But I believe you were the one implying that people that don't agree with your opinion need to learn to play.
Perhaps people who live in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones.
There you go with the colors again. You are correct it leads to them dying but they still do not die for Stealth+CoS. Thank you for agreeing that they do not die from Stealth+CoS and that it just leads to them dying. Either way players are meant to die in PvP One team wins and one team looses. People who die from Stealth+Cos alone do not know how to play. It does not matter if it leads to them dying a different way. They could die from the Rogue's team mate joining the the fight and still try to point a finger at CoS+Stealth. I do not live in a glass house and I am not blinding like some people. The entire TR community is being railroaded because of blind people who are completely against Trs. Let us just nerf everything into the ground and ruin the entire game. First it was DCs, now it is TRs, who will be next? If you do not wish to die at all, do not play PVP. There is no juggernaut class. I rest my case.
@Thalesamr: No, the GWF was never intended as a pure striker, it is the hybrid in the bunch, between a tank and striker. The companion is a whole different story, it doesnt equal the GWF. The spider is labeled a control pet, but it has no control abilities. Just like the CW isnt a striker either, its a control class with high damage. My GWF sits at 27kHP or something in dps gear, while my TR sits at 18 or 19k. My GWF also has more than 2x the mitigation.
To gain close to that survivability, the TR needs to give up group utility (smokebomb) or a damage skill to get ItC, at which point his dps will drop. It comes down to giving up WR, LB or PotB. I run SB, LB and WR myself to maximize damage and group utility. The GWF gives up passive damage for passive survivability, thats how the class is designed, it even comes with a tanking tree that can make them unkillable in PvP. The GWF also brings debuffs to the table that benefit the whole groups damage.
The queue system is also nothing to look at when it comes to deciding who is a tank, healer or striker, its a poor system designed for a pure tank and healer, then up to 3 dps, with any mix of hybrids in there. The system will suck until you sign up with a role of your choice, since every class can fill every position. Many people take GWFs as tanks for premade groups, since it works, just like they take DC dps. The queue system is broken though so gives no proper info.
@Nukeyoo: Everything you mentioned gimps TR dps in return for things that look good on paper. Too bad that isnt painfully obvious to you.
@Ambisinisterr: No, CWs and DCs wont die to perma stealth TRs that stay back and use CoS. The skill is not worth wasting on LA anymore, it's better off as a finisher or opener. 8 charges wont deal enough damage. Just slot AS or Healing Word and they wont be able to kill you with CoS spam, they probably wont even hurt you at all. Or did the DC lose his heals all of a sudden? For CW you see where they throw the knives from and engage, control and kill. They will just dent the CW bubble, thats it. TRs are silly easy to kill on live even with a CW. The DC needs a buff though.
And nerfs might need to happen at times, but you dont go and nerf the middle class of the food chain, you also dont put in every possible nerf at once. You take it patch by patch so you dont get lost if you happen to overnerf.
@Ambisinisterr: No, CWs and DCs wont die to perma stealth TRs that stay back and use CoS. The skill is not worth wasting on LA anymore, it's better off as a finisher or opener. 8 charges wont deal enough damage. Just slot AS or Healing Word and they wont be able to kill you with CoS spam, they probably wont even hurt you at all. Or did the DC lose his heals all of a sudden? For CW you see where they throw the knives from and engage, control and kill. They will just dent the CW bubble, thats it. TRs are silly easy to kill on live even with a CW. The DC needs a buff though.
Actually, if we take into account the worst possible exploitable perma-stealth build, they will die. And pretty soon.
I'm talking about the tenebrous enchantments, you know.
Just today I saw a TR with full PvP gear, rank 8 dark enchant in his armor (+800ish HP), hp belt and jewelry. He had like 28k HP and 7 x tenebrous enchants (he's not that rich).
To my knowledge he's going to hit for roughly 3920 dmg per hit (not mitigable damage) with some cooldown + the regular CoS dmg.
Nonetheless nerfs that are not strictly related to the issue (perma stealth and its worst exploited PvP variants) are bad. And the proposed nerfs were bad because they were too generic and had a greater impact on normal players (Saboteur builds mainly) than perma-stealthers.
Actually, if we take into account the worst possible exploitable perma-stealth build, they will die. And pretty soon.
I'm talking about the tenebrous enchantments, you know.
Just today I saw a TR with full PvP gear, rank 8 dark enchant in his armor (+800ish HP), hp belt and jewelry. He had like 28k HP and 7 x tenebrous enchants (he's not that rich).
To my knowledge he's going to hit for roughly 3920 dmg per hit (not mitigable damage) with some cooldown + the regular CoS dmg.
Nonetheless nerfs that are not strictly related to the issue (perma stealth and its worst exploited PvP variants) are bad. And the proposed nerfs were bad because they were too generic and had a greater impact on normal players (Saboteur builds mainly) than perma-stealthers.
That's 3920 extra on 1 hit, not all 8. It has a 10sec IC unless there is some exploit going around. Its not something to nerf classes around in PvP, it is however something to think about, maybe remove chants from PvP.
Actually, if we take into account the worst possible exploitable perma-stealth build, they will die. And pretty soon.
I'm talking about the tenebrous enchantments, you know.
Just today I saw a TR with full PvP gear, rank 8 dark enchant in his armor (+800ish HP), hp belt and jewelry. He had like 28k HP and 7 x tenebrous enchants (he's not that rich).
To my knowledge he's going to hit for roughly 3920 dmg per hit (not mitigable damage) with some cooldown + the regular CoS dmg.
Nonetheless nerfs that are not strictly related to the issue (perma stealth and its worst exploited PvP variants) are bad. And the proposed nerfs were bad because they were too generic and had a greater impact on normal players (Saboteur builds mainly) than perma-stealthers.
Another valid argument against the general wide spread nerf. Simply make the tenebrous enchantment not stack. That will solve a large amount of the one hit kill issue. The permastealth issue can be handled by adjusting the cooldown and powers that allow permastealth. In my opinion, which is hopefully wrong but I doubt it because of the nerf to Dcs, the devs have not completely thought out the nerfs or are too lazy to do so.
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
@Nukeyoo: Everything you mentioned gimps TR dps in return for things that look good on paper. Too bad that isnt painfully obvious to you.
Abilities allowing TR's to stay in range, prevent escape, and maintain stealth "gimps tr's dps"? Last I checked you need to stay within a certain range to do any dps. While maintaining stealth gives combat advantage, not to mention when coupled with other feats such as brutal backstab increases dps substantially. Don't forget to throw in the added benefit of limited detection range allowing for even more dps due to not receiving as much focus. Add even more in with the run speed to get to fights/positions quicker and/or escape death while getting health or resetting cool downs allowing for more dps since you're not waiting on a respawn timer.
It's painfully obvious that these things looking good on paper, do in fact look good in game also.
i find it hard to believe that players want the nerfs on the preview shard along with another CoS nerf. I dont think you all know how much of a blow to damage dropping from 12 to 8 charges will be. CoS, according to the perma-stealth guide, is where most of their dps comes from. 8 charges on the skill would force perma-rogues to seek alternative forms of dps as their killing speed will be too slow.
Perma-stealth is not an exploit people. No, i am not a perma rogue and i dont think the devs have any intention to remove the build either. There may be some tweaks to make it not as appealing as it is now, ie high survive-ability and high dps, and remove the dps aspect of it, Hence, the lurkers nerf imo. Now, TRs will have the choice of high dps or to live longer. I employ you guys to hold off on the additional nerf screams until the test server nerfs hit live. The devs arent as crazy as we think, i may personally hate the DF nerf but think these guys may be on to something here in terms of balance. If the situation is out of hand as it is now, then by all means, nerf us moar!1!!1
Sorry TRs but lurkers needed to be toned down, was confusing to me when SE got nerf'd and LA was left alone....guess it was jus delayed a bit.
Have a good day all, happy gaming
i find it hard to believe that players want the nerfs on the preview shard along with another CoS nerf. I dont think you all know how much of a blow to damage dropping from 12 to 8 charges will be. CoS, according to the perma-stealth guide, is where most of their dps comes from. 8 charges on the skill would force perma-rogues to seek alternative forms of dps as their killing speed will be too slow.
Perma-stealth is not an exploit people. No, i am not a perma rogue and i dont think the devs have any intention to remove the build either. There may be some tweaks to make it not as appealing as it is now, ie high survive-ability and high dps, and remove the dps aspect of it, Hence, the lurkers nerf imo. Now, TRs will have the choice of high dps or to live longer. I employ you guys to hold off on the additional nerf screams until the test server nerfs hit live. The devs arent as crazy as we think, i may personally hate the DF nerf but think these guys may be on to something here in terms of balance. If the situation is out of hand as it is now, then by all means, nerf us moar!1!!1
Sorry TRs but lurkers needed to be toned down, was confused to me when SE got nerf'd and LA was left alone....guess it was jus delayed a bit.
Have a good day all, happy gaming
Some people are calling for another nerf and some are saying the current nerf is ridiculous. In the terms of balance, the devs will have to nerf the GF's block and the GWF's unstoppable because it will be very hard for a TR to even scratch them after the nerf. This nerf is to wide spread and it will simply hurt the game. Trs might have been reasonable if say only lurkers was nerfed. Honestly if the tenebrous enchantments were fixed so they do not stack, the lurker's nerf would probably not be needed. Not every TR has several tenebrous enchantments. More TRs will probably be buying them and putting cash into the game to convert to astral diamonds which means more money for PWE. That could be the reason for the over the top nerfs.
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thalesamrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
@Thalesamr: No, the GWF was never intended as a pure striker, it is the hybrid in the bunch, between a tank and striker. The companion is a whole different story, it doesnt equal the GWF. The spider is labeled a control pet, but it has no control abilities. Just like the CW isnt a striker either, its a control class with high damage. My GWF sits at 27kHP or something in dps gear, while my TR sits at 18 or 19k. My GWF also has more than 2x the mitigation.
To gain close to that survivability, the TR needs to give up group utility (smokebomb) or a damage skill to get ItC, at which point his dps will drop. It comes down to giving up WR, LB or PotB. I run SB, LB and WR myself to maximize damage and group utility. The GWF gives up passive damage for passive survivability, thats how the class is designed, it even comes with a tanking tree that can make them unkillable in PvP. The GWF also brings debuffs to the table that benefit the whole groups damage.
TR has aura of crt buff...
TR dmg comes from duelist flurry, so their dps, if you use a defensive encounter, will not drop that much.
People'd rather have 2 tr or 2 cw instead of a GWF in dungeons, and rogues don't mind about that... they just dont want to get nerfed.
But ok, since 80% of the community is rogue, I would choose real money instead of balance in a fictional game... and I also would do a tiny nerf to try to please the minor portion of players that play classes that are underplayed.
Also, if GWF is a hybrid between a tank and a striker and they are not very attractive to run dungeons, then something is wrong with that role...
I would have nerfs instead of buffs because the game is somewhat easy...
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nukeyooBanned Users, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
TR dmg comes from duelist flurry, so their dps, if you use a defensive encounter, will not drop that much.
Some could argue that there isn't any drop at all. I use smoke bomb, lashing blade, impossible to catch the majority of the time in dungeons only switching encounters for specific bosses or mob encounters and have left a plethora of other TR with equal or better gear that were using damage focused encounters in the dust in terms of dps. Sure, player skill and specific build could play a large part in my examples but the added dps allowed by staying in the red and maintaining contact is substantial. Especially when the red comes while LA is in use.
TR has aura of crt buff...
TR dmg comes from duelist flurry, so their dps, if you use a defensive encounter, will not drop that much.
People'd rather have 2 tr or 2 cw instead of a GWF in dungeons, and rogues don't mind about that... they just dont want to get nerfed.
But ok, since 80% of the community is rogue, I would choose real money instead of balance in a fictional game... and I also would do a tiny nerf to try to please the minor portion of players that play classes that are underplayed.
Also, if GWF is a hybrid between a tank and a striker and they are not very attractive to run dungeons, then something is wrong with that role...
I would have nerfs instead of buffs because the game is somewhat easy...
There is the rub because it is not a tiny nerf at all. The nerf to Shocking Execution was tiny. This is still a large nerf that nerfs several aspects of the TR class.
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t3hwh173f0xMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
But they have to happen. Simply buffing other features isn't the best solution all the time.
That would basically cause game balance inflation or more aptly called "Power Creep."
Like it or not sometimes the best course of action will be to tone down features of certain content.
And sadly the problem with the proposed changes is still unresolved. Clerics and Wizards will still die to Permastealth rogues who stay back and use CoS....That was always the problem...and will remain the problem...less damage is nice, t'll take them longer to kill me, but we will still have no way to target and retaliate against permastealth rogues before we die...
And no matter how you try to sell that the mechanic is broken.
^^ I whole heartedly agree with this. When you are stealth 100% of the time it is broken. However I don't think the TR damage is an issue. The fix needs to be to the perma-stealth, it is cheap, it is broken and the only people who use it are people who don't want to play the game properly and those people shouldn't be allowed to prosper.
The only thing that needs to be done is fix Bait and Switch and Shadowstrike to only restore 50% of stealth meter and I believe the TR would be fixed. Anything else would really make a mess of the class.
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thalesamrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
There is the rub because it is not a tiny nerf at all. The nerf to Shocking Execution was tiny. This is still a large nerf that nerfs several aspects of the TR class.
It is tiny, you are not always on lurkers assault the 35% dmg nerf on LA will only reflect as +-10% dmg nerf overall (if you have lots of recovery, if you dont the nerf will impact in your dmg even less)
dungeonwise
I'm not sure about this, but i guess in a remote time of the neverwinter online history, gwf recieved about 60% at will dmg nerf
^^ I whole heartedly agree with this. When you are stealth 100% of the time it is broken. However I don't think the TR damage is an issue. The fix needs to be to the perma-stealth, it is cheap, it is broken and the only people who use it are people who don't want to play the game properly and those people shouldn't be allowed to prosper.
The only thing that needs to be done is fix Bait and Switch and Shadowstrike to only restore 50% of stealth meter and I believe the TR would be fixed. Anything else would really make a mess of the class.
Well... maybe in PvP (dont play it, low rewards ), but in PvE (5 man dungeon) we (my rogue friend and my new rogue tutored by him) only use those abilities if we want to skip some part of the dungeon... not for bosses
I dont want TR being nerfed to the ground... I want that they balance the game in a certain way that the best party for a dungeon would be one of each class...
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t3hwh173f0xMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Well... maybe in PvP (dont play it, low rewards ), but in PvE (5 man dungeon) we (my rogue friend and my new rogue tutored by him) only use those abilities if we want to skip some part of the dungeon... not for bosses
Exactly my point. You see, PvP'ers use it in an exploitative way to be untargetable and PvE'ers use it in an exploitative way by skipping content with it. You see, at the end of the day it is still an exploit and its the only thing that is broken about the TR.
Exactly my point. You see, PvP'ers use it in an exploitative way to be untargetable and PvE'ers use it in an exploitative way by skipping content with it. You see, at the end of the day it is still an exploit and its the only thing that is broken about the TR.
But you arent untargetable and with the nerf CoS wont be even half as deadly, so it wont be an issue if the TR stands stealthed tossing knives at you. His main damage will be upfront, where stealth will only confuse the enemy. It's easy to combat TRs in melee range. If they dont field the class feature that removes 90% stealth drain from taking damage, they will be out of stealth in a hit or two. And if you have any control powers, they will be **** out of luck.
@The others: Yes, damage will drop if you skip an encounter to slot ItC. And they are supposed to be the striker of the game. GWF is a hybrid no matter how you try and twist it. I've seen plenty of bad GWFs that end up far down on the damage list. They cant comprehend the class well enough to play it properly. Maybe the class just isnt for you. The main point is also that GWFs dont pick between high staying power and damage, the game is designed with them having high staying power and good damage, not the best damage, but good.
You cant have both staying power that is great and dps that is great. However, in PvP this is actually what GWFs have, amazing staying and killing power. Because they bring massive control burst along with high protection, high HP and high deflect.
I have yet to see myself end up as #2 or lower on the PvE damage charts on my GWF. And with the TR nerf I will have to look harder for it to happen.
TR, DC and CW needs to be brought inline with GWF and GF. People also love to yell for nerfs without thinking about what to give as a compensation for destroyed skills. Like the suggestions to make B&S and SS only restore 50% stealth. What bonus will the skills get in return for what they lose? Half CD, massive damage, stamina refill, daze, stun, knockdown, knockback, self heal?
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thalesamrMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Exactly my point. You see, PvP'ers use it in an exploitative way to be untargetable and PvE'ers use it in an exploitative way by skipping content with it. You see, at the end of the day it is still an exploit and its the only thing that is broken about the TR.
It is not the only thing... because even if you remove that, GWF arent going to be a good choice for dungeons yet.
Lowering TR dmg, to not be so drastically higher than gwf to make him slower to kill mobs (those that arent throwed in holes or bugged... another issue for gwf) one by one mobs but still doing higher single target dmg than gwf would force have the 2 of them in a party. IMO
It is tiny, you are not always on lurkers assault the 35% dmg nerf on LA will only reflect as +-10% dmg nerf overall (if you have lots of recovery, if you dont the nerf will impact in your dmg even less)
You must be very poorly informed. I suggest you research the threads on this nerf.
The Nerf is:
1. Lurker's Assault reduced from 60% to 25%.
2. Bleed being limited to a stack of 10.
3. COS being reduced to 8 daggers from the 12.
4. Feat: Speed Swindle: This feat is now properly considered a Control effect for calculations and procs.
Shocking Execution was a tiny nerf because only one thing was nerfed. The Shocking Blade nerf on top of the other nerfs will significantly hurt TRs. This is a nerf that included four things TRs use. Please do research on the subject. I suggest you test out this nerf on the Preview shard to see just how bad it will hurt you in dungeons. The main drawback to these nerfs will be the damage done to PVE. http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?429751-**UPDATED**-Nerfs-to-Rogue
I dont want TR being nerfed to the ground... I want that they balance the game in a certain way that the best party for a dungeon would be one of each class...
PVP whiners want TRs nerfed into the ground. Simply read this thread and the others ones because it will be very easy to see since they want more nerfs already. Also, about the only way to get one of each class in a dungeon is to do PUG teams. The Queue is so messed up that I gave up doing dungeons until my guild works on their lvl 60 characters to improve GS.
Problem is and has always been trying to solve a PvP problem in a PvE game. That said I'm looking forward to the Era of the GWF, dominating in damage and surivability in PvP and PvE.
Nevermore@meeggtoast 12.2 BiS TR Lanaya@meeggtoast 13.4 BiS GWF Shendelzare@meeggtoast 11.2k CN mule CW
Exactly my point. You see, PvP'ers use it in an exploitative way to be untargetable and PvE'ers use it in an exploitative way by skipping content with it. You see, at the end of the day it is still an exploit and its the only thing that is broken about the TR.
People may like using the TR Stealth in an way which allows trash mobs to be outright skipped...
But I can basically promise that's not intended. That's outright exploiting in my books.
And no amount of whining that trash mobs aren't worth the time and effort will justify abusing the stealth and other game mechanics in an effort to skip mobs with minimal to no effort. The trash is there to be killed. If they wanted you to not kill it they wouldn't have put it there. If you can skip a handful all the more power to you but to simply skip 100% of the mobs between bosses is exploiting the system.
I don't know whether Cryptic agrees with me for sure. I don't know if they will punish those doing it. But I'd wager anything that in some way the abuse of stealth to skip content will be removed.
But you arent untargetable and with the nerf CoS wont be even half as deadly, so it wont be an issue if the TR stands stealthed tossing knives at you. His main damage will be upfront, where stealth will only confuse the enemy. It's easy to combat TRs in melee range.
Yes and no. The rogue's damage goes up exponentially in melee range. A control Wizard could always lift them up into the air and end the threat with that but Devoted Clerics are too squishy to sustain melee blows from Trickster Rogues and lack any form of CC which would allow them to remain in melee range of a Trickster Rogue without taking damage.
Furthermore that entire concept goes out the window when you also couple in ItC. That's the nail on the coffin which destroys the risk rogues have to take when going within melee range of Control Wizards and Devoted Clerics.
You must be very poorly informed. I suggest you research the threads on this nerf.
The Nerf is:
1. Lurker's Assault reduced from 60% to 25%.
2. Bleed being limited to a stack of 10.
3. COS being reduced to 8 daggers from the 12.
4. Feat: Speed Swindle: This feat is now properly considered a Control effect for calculations and procs.
Shocking Blade was a tiny nerf because only one thing was nerfed. The Shocking Blade nerf on top of the other nerfs will significantly hurt TRs. This is a nerf that included four things TRs use. Please do research on the subject. I suggest you test out this nerf on the Preview shard to see just how bad it will hurt you in dungeons. The main drawback to these nerfs will be the damage done to PVE.
Erm, There's no such thing as "Shocking Blade."
There's Shocking Execution and Lashing Blade. If you consider the changes made to Shocking Execution "small" (which happened over two months ago now) then by default changing CoS to diminish the health bar would be microscopic. Rogue have and still do complain about the Shocking Execution changes claiming it's worthless to have now.
And Lashing Blade might have had some small changes made to it (can't recall) but neither Shocking Execution or Lashing Blade has anything to do with the recent changes which were clearly an attempt to reduce the effectiveness of permastealth.
Furthermore #4 is more along the lines of a buff. It wasn't working as a control effect as it should have (bug) and as such cost rogues and other classes the bonus damage which is granted by attacking creatures effected by control effects.
1. Move away.
2. Survive long enough for your team to get involved.
3. Learn to watch for trajectory and track it, so you know where the stealth TR is and attack.
4. Dodge. it is difficult but people do it all the time.
No matter how you try to sell it, it still seems to be a learn to play issue. All these nerfs together is a very bad idea.
Lovely suggestions. Nukeyoo covered most of it but let me re-iterate:
1. Move away. Nukeyoo nailed this. Once I get hit I am more than likely not getting away.
And I keep telling you winning a fight doesn't mean you kill them. If you remove a person from the fight you win. Even if I manage to leave my team loses in that situation. Anything which outright makes an enemy run from the battle is out of balance.
2. Easilly said. Play a DC and try doing that. Until that point you have no idea what other classes face.
3. Attack!? Attack what!? The entire point is that control wizards and devoted clerics can not use basically any of their attacks without having a target! If I can't see them I can't attack!
4. Dodging is quite easy. I can say with confidence that the months doing epic dungeons being a tank cleric has me and other cleric friends from that day in age quite proficient dodging attacks and maintaining positioning.
Thing is I have 2 uses of dodge off the bat and it takes me roughly 1.5-2 seconds until I can dodge again. I can't dodge 8 CoS, 3 Enounters and a daily with possibly 4 dodges if I am lucky. As nukeyoo said, at the very least the CoS will be used as an opener to take down half my health before I can do anything about the situation. If CoS was a skill shot it would be one thing but as far as I am concerned it is 6-8 guaranteed hits (8-12K Damage minimum) and if I opt to take 6 hits I now have to contend with 3 encounters and a daily with 1 dodge, possibly two if I survive for 2 seconds.
Yeah...it's not a learn to play deal. There is nothing I can do to retailiate or protect myself against that. I can try to outheal...it's not effective.
So unless you guys are clerics please stop pretending that life is that easy. The whole point is CoS has clerics and control wizards as sitting ducks. You can argue that all you want but they aren't good arguments. The rogue is a highly offensive class which has defensive powers to completely negate the ability of two classes from defending themselves at all for long periods of time and when played correctly is completely untouchable.
There's no learning to play against it. Moderate skill and a decent build with or without tenebrous will render rogues invulnerable. I have been killed by a single rogue while fighting alongside two wizards because we couldn't target or damage him before his DPS killed us.
That's not balanced. Lowering his damage output will help...
But the ability to go completely immune to everything Control Wizards and Devoted Clerics can throw at them will still exist with these proposed solutions. That above the damage output was always the problem.
EDIT P.S. - The number one issue I face in PvP is actually generating divinity. No divinity = no healing astral shield. No attacking = No Divinity.
You must be very poorly informed. I suggest you research the threads on this nerf.
The Nerf is:
1. Lurker's Assault reduced from 60% to 25%.
2. Bleed being limited to a stack of 10.
3. COS being reduced to 8 daggers from the 12.
4. Feat: Speed Swindle: This feat is now properly considered a Control effect for calculations and procs.
Shocking Blade was a tiny nerf because only one thing was nerfed. The Shocking Blade nerf on top of the other nerfs will significantly hurt TRs. This is a nerf that included four things TRs use. Please do research on the subject. I suggest you test out this nerf on the Preview shard to see just how bad it will hurt you in dungeons. The main drawback to these nerfs will be the damage done to PVE. http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?429751-**UPDATED**-Nerfs-to-Rogue
Comments
GWF is a striker, if you buy a gwf companion (sellsword) you will see that he is classified as a striker... GWF is not a tank, he cant agro very well if he goes pure defense, or even worse he cant agro without being near the mob... Tank is GF
if he goes dmg he wont survive enough to tank all mobs as well
where did you came with GWF not being a striker... you just need to see that in a solo queue if you are a GWF you are going to wait a long time because it competes with rogues.. while GF is way faster...
AOE dmg is not so good, because you have singularity... even so TR has dmg enough to easily kill one by one...,if GWF is not a striker and he is not a tank... what is he? Useless
And it is really easy to find party for DD as a GWF... not.
When I say tank, i mean defender
However I would like to know, do you plan on fixing the perma-stealth exploit? It is the only problem with the TR at the moment, I must say.
But they have to happen. Simply buffing other features isn't the best solution all the time.
That would basically cause game balance inflation or more aptly called "Power Creep."
Like it or not sometimes the best course of action will be to tone down features of certain content.
And sadly the problem with the proposed changes is still unresolved. Clerics and Wizards will still die to Permastealth rogues who stay back and use CoS....That was always the problem...and will remain the problem...less damage is nice, t'll take them longer to kill me, but we will still have no way to target and retaliate against permastealth rogues before we die...
And no matter how you try to sell that the mechanic is broken.
Let see ways to fix permastealth rouges.
!. Make Bait&switch refill 75% of the stealth meter or 50% instead of 100%
2. Make Shadow Strike refill 75% of the stealth meter or 50% instead of 100%. - Increase the damage of Shadow Strike.
3. Nerf the gear that gives a bonus to stealth.
The number of permastealths is actually low compared to the rest of the TR community. There is no point in hurting the entire community because of a few individuals. Every class has its advantages and disadvantages. TRs are weak to GFs and GWfs. TRs are strong against Clerics and CWs. When it comes to stealth+CoS you can:
1. Move away.
2. Survive long enough for your team to get involved.
3. Learn to watch for trajectory and track it, so you know where the stealth TR is and attack.
4. Dodge. it is difficult but people do it all the time.
No matter how you try to sell it, it still seems to be a learn to play issue. All these nerfs together is a very bad idea.
Lets see what I have in my TR's repertoire to deal with your painfully obvious offerings to counter.
1. How about I use sneak attack running 30% faster in stealth and plus twilight adept for 10% stealth restore on dodge. Perhaps speed swindle for 10% speed snare + 10% speed boost on crit. I don't see them escaping my range.
2. Essentially saying run away to you buddies or when the buddies show up. I simply walk away or wait for my buddies in the safety of stealth.
3. Sweet CW or DC is tracking where I am and moving towards me. I am after all a f#$&ing melee class.
4. Please waste all your stamina on dodging my CoS as I line up my encounters that you will be unable to avoid, and get dropped like a bad habit. GG
If you don't realize the painfully obvious counters I offered to your counters, then perhaps it is a learn to play issue and it's no wonder you feel the way you do.
Painfully obvious you are trying to change the subject again. The subject was dying from CoS+Stealth if you bothered to read my post. Wait, you do not even bother reading other people's posts and get away with belittling other people's opinion.
1. How about I use sneak attack running 30% faster in stealth and plus twilight adept for 10% stealth restore on dodge. Perhaps speed swindle for 10% speed snare + 10% speed boost on crit. I don't see them escaping my range. <- The individual dies from something else and not CoS+Stealth from a stealth Rogue.
2. Essentially saying run away to you buddies or when the buddies show up. I simply walk away or wait for my buddies in the safety of stealth. <- You already do what I suggest and that is to survive till your buddies show up.
3. Sweet CW or DC is tracking where I am and moving towards me. I am after all a f#$&ing melee class. <-The CW or DC does not die from CoS+Stealth.
4. Please waste all your stamina on dodging my CoS as I line up my encounters that you will be unable to avoid, and get dropped like a bad habit. GG <- The individual dies from something else and not CoS+Stealth from a stealth Rogue.
It is painfully obvious you would rather attack other people's opinions, basically troll them, instead of first reading them. Oh wait, I should have put them in colors.
You are correct. There are other ways to fix the permastealth TR issue.
So because CoS+stealth only created or lead to the situation where the person was handily defeated with little to no means of defending themselves. It makes it okay. Lol, alrighty then. You seem upset that I point out the possible flaws in your opinion by looking at both sides of the scenario. I apologize if me doing so makes you feel belittled. But I believe you were the one implying that people that don't agree with your opinion need to learn to play.
Perhaps people who live in glass houses, shouldn't throw stones.
There you go with the colors again. You are correct it leads to them dying but they still do not die for Stealth+CoS. Thank you for agreeing that they do not die from Stealth+CoS and that it just leads to them dying. Either way players are meant to die in PvP One team wins and one team looses. People who die from Stealth+Cos alone do not know how to play. It does not matter if it leads to them dying a different way. They could die from the Rogue's team mate joining the the fight and still try to point a finger at CoS+Stealth. I do not live in a glass house and I am not blinding like some people. The entire TR community is being railroaded because of blind people who are completely against Trs. Let us just nerf everything into the ground and ruin the entire game. First it was DCs, now it is TRs, who will be next? If you do not wish to die at all, do not play PVP. There is no juggernaut class. I rest my case.
To gain close to that survivability, the TR needs to give up group utility (smokebomb) or a damage skill to get ItC, at which point his dps will drop. It comes down to giving up WR, LB or PotB. I run SB, LB and WR myself to maximize damage and group utility. The GWF gives up passive damage for passive survivability, thats how the class is designed, it even comes with a tanking tree that can make them unkillable in PvP. The GWF also brings debuffs to the table that benefit the whole groups damage.
The queue system is also nothing to look at when it comes to deciding who is a tank, healer or striker, its a poor system designed for a pure tank and healer, then up to 3 dps, with any mix of hybrids in there. The system will suck until you sign up with a role of your choice, since every class can fill every position. Many people take GWFs as tanks for premade groups, since it works, just like they take DC dps. The queue system is broken though so gives no proper info.
@Nukeyoo: Everything you mentioned gimps TR dps in return for things that look good on paper. Too bad that isnt painfully obvious to you.
@Ambisinisterr: No, CWs and DCs wont die to perma stealth TRs that stay back and use CoS. The skill is not worth wasting on LA anymore, it's better off as a finisher or opener. 8 charges wont deal enough damage. Just slot AS or Healing Word and they wont be able to kill you with CoS spam, they probably wont even hurt you at all. Or did the DC lose his heals all of a sudden? For CW you see where they throw the knives from and engage, control and kill. They will just dent the CW bubble, thats it. TRs are silly easy to kill on live even with a CW. The DC needs a buff though.
And nerfs might need to happen at times, but you dont go and nerf the middle class of the food chain, you also dont put in every possible nerf at once. You take it patch by patch so you dont get lost if you happen to overnerf.
Actually, if we take into account the worst possible exploitable perma-stealth build, they will die. And pretty soon.
I'm talking about the tenebrous enchantments, you know.
Just today I saw a TR with full PvP gear, rank 8 dark enchant in his armor (+800ish HP), hp belt and jewelry. He had like 28k HP and 7 x tenebrous enchants (he's not that rich).
To my knowledge he's going to hit for roughly 3920 dmg per hit (not mitigable damage) with some cooldown + the regular CoS dmg.
Nonetheless nerfs that are not strictly related to the issue (perma stealth and its worst exploited PvP variants) are bad. And the proposed nerfs were bad because they were too generic and had a greater impact on normal players (Saboteur builds mainly) than perma-stealthers.
That's 3920 extra on 1 hit, not all 8. It has a 10sec IC unless there is some exploit going around. Its not something to nerf classes around in PvP, it is however something to think about, maybe remove chants from PvP.
It still wont be a one shot combo anymore.
Another valid argument against the general wide spread nerf. Simply make the tenebrous enchantment not stack. That will solve a large amount of the one hit kill issue. The permastealth issue can be handled by adjusting the cooldown and powers that allow permastealth. In my opinion, which is hopefully wrong but I doubt it because of the nerf to Dcs, the devs have not completely thought out the nerfs or are too lazy to do so.
Abilities allowing TR's to stay in range, prevent escape, and maintain stealth "gimps tr's dps"? Last I checked you need to stay within a certain range to do any dps. While maintaining stealth gives combat advantage, not to mention when coupled with other feats such as brutal backstab increases dps substantially. Don't forget to throw in the added benefit of limited detection range allowing for even more dps due to not receiving as much focus. Add even more in with the run speed to get to fights/positions quicker and/or escape death while getting health or resetting cool downs allowing for more dps since you're not waiting on a respawn timer.
It's painfully obvious that these things looking good on paper, do in fact look good in game also.
Perma-stealth is not an exploit people. No, i am not a perma rogue and i dont think the devs have any intention to remove the build either. There may be some tweaks to make it not as appealing as it is now, ie high survive-ability and high dps, and remove the dps aspect of it, Hence, the lurkers nerf imo. Now, TRs will have the choice of high dps or to live longer. I employ you guys to hold off on the additional nerf screams until the test server nerfs hit live. The devs arent as crazy as we think, i may personally hate the DF nerf but think these guys may be on to something here in terms of balance. If the situation is out of hand as it is now, then by all means, nerf us moar!1!!1
Sorry TRs but lurkers needed to be toned down, was confusing to me when SE got nerf'd and LA was left alone....guess it was jus delayed a bit.
Have a good day all, happy gaming
Some people are calling for another nerf and some are saying the current nerf is ridiculous. In the terms of balance, the devs will have to nerf the GF's block and the GWF's unstoppable because it will be very hard for a TR to even scratch them after the nerf. This nerf is to wide spread and it will simply hurt the game. Trs might have been reasonable if say only lurkers was nerfed. Honestly if the tenebrous enchantments were fixed so they do not stack, the lurker's nerf would probably not be needed. Not every TR has several tenebrous enchantments. More TRs will probably be buying them and putting cash into the game to convert to astral diamonds which means more money for PWE. That could be the reason for the over the top nerfs.
TR has aura of crt buff...
TR dmg comes from duelist flurry, so their dps, if you use a defensive encounter, will not drop that much.
People'd rather have 2 tr or 2 cw instead of a GWF in dungeons, and rogues don't mind about that... they just dont want to get nerfed.
But ok, since 80% of the community is rogue, I would choose real money instead of balance in a fictional game... and I also would do a tiny nerf to try to please the minor portion of players that play classes that are underplayed.
Also, if GWF is a hybrid between a tank and a striker and they are not very attractive to run dungeons, then something is wrong with that role...
I would have nerfs instead of buffs because the game is somewhat easy...
Some could argue that there isn't any drop at all. I use smoke bomb, lashing blade, impossible to catch the majority of the time in dungeons only switching encounters for specific bosses or mob encounters and have left a plethora of other TR with equal or better gear that were using damage focused encounters in the dust in terms of dps. Sure, player skill and specific build could play a large part in my examples but the added dps allowed by staying in the red and maintaining contact is substantial. Especially when the red comes while LA is in use.
There is the rub because it is not a tiny nerf at all. The nerf to Shocking Execution was tiny. This is still a large nerf that nerfs several aspects of the TR class.
^^ I whole heartedly agree with this. When you are stealth 100% of the time it is broken. However I don't think the TR damage is an issue. The fix needs to be to the perma-stealth, it is cheap, it is broken and the only people who use it are people who don't want to play the game properly and those people shouldn't be allowed to prosper.
The only thing that needs to be done is fix Bait and Switch and Shadowstrike to only restore 50% of stealth meter and I believe the TR would be fixed. Anything else would really make a mess of the class.
It is tiny, you are not always on lurkers assault the 35% dmg nerf on LA will only reflect as +-10% dmg nerf overall (if you have lots of recovery, if you dont the nerf will impact in your dmg even less)
dungeonwise
I'm not sure about this, but i guess in a remote time of the neverwinter online history, gwf recieved about 60% at will dmg nerf
Well... maybe in PvP (dont play it, low rewards
I dont want TR being nerfed to the ground... I want that they balance the game in a certain way that the best party for a dungeon would be one of each class...
Exactly my point. You see, PvP'ers use it in an exploitative way to be untargetable and PvE'ers use it in an exploitative way by skipping content with it. You see, at the end of the day it is still an exploit and its the only thing that is broken about the TR.
But you arent untargetable and with the nerf CoS wont be even half as deadly, so it wont be an issue if the TR stands stealthed tossing knives at you. His main damage will be upfront, where stealth will only confuse the enemy. It's easy to combat TRs in melee range. If they dont field the class feature that removes 90% stealth drain from taking damage, they will be out of stealth in a hit or two. And if you have any control powers, they will be **** out of luck.
@The others: Yes, damage will drop if you skip an encounter to slot ItC. And they are supposed to be the striker of the game. GWF is a hybrid no matter how you try and twist it. I've seen plenty of bad GWFs that end up far down on the damage list. They cant comprehend the class well enough to play it properly. Maybe the class just isnt for you. The main point is also that GWFs dont pick between high staying power and damage, the game is designed with them having high staying power and good damage, not the best damage, but good.
You cant have both staying power that is great and dps that is great. However, in PvP this is actually what GWFs have, amazing staying and killing power. Because they bring massive control burst along with high protection, high HP and high deflect.
I have yet to see myself end up as #2 or lower on the PvE damage charts on my GWF. And with the TR nerf I will have to look harder for it to happen.
TR, DC and CW needs to be brought inline with GWF and GF. People also love to yell for nerfs without thinking about what to give as a compensation for destroyed skills. Like the suggestions to make B&S and SS only restore 50% stealth. What bonus will the skills get in return for what they lose? Half CD, massive damage, stamina refill, daze, stun, knockdown, knockback, self heal?
It is not the only thing... because even if you remove that, GWF arent going to be a good choice for dungeons yet.
Lowering TR dmg, to not be so drastically higher than gwf to make him slower to kill mobs (those that arent throwed in holes or bugged... another issue for gwf) one by one mobs but still doing higher single target dmg than gwf would force have the 2 of them in a party. IMO
You must be very poorly informed. I suggest you research the threads on this nerf.
The Nerf is:
1. Lurker's Assault reduced from 60% to 25%.
2. Bleed being limited to a stack of 10.
3. COS being reduced to 8 daggers from the 12.
4. Feat: Speed Swindle: This feat is now properly considered a Control effect for calculations and procs.
Shocking Execution was a tiny nerf because only one thing was nerfed. The Shocking Blade nerf on top of the other nerfs will significantly hurt TRs. This is a nerf that included four things TRs use. Please do research on the subject. I suggest you test out this nerf on the Preview shard to see just how bad it will hurt you in dungeons. The main drawback to these nerfs will be the damage done to PVE.
http://nw-forum.perfectworld.com/showthread.php?429751-**UPDATED**-Nerfs-to-Rogue
PVP whiners want TRs nerfed into the ground. Simply read this thread and the others ones because it will be very easy to see since they want more nerfs already. Also, about the only way to get one of each class in a dungeon is to do PUG teams. The Queue is so messed up that I gave up doing dungeons until my guild works on their lvl 60 characters to improve GS.
Lanaya@meeggtoast 13.4 BiS GWF
Shendelzare@meeggtoast 11.2k CN mule CW
Server: Dragon
Stream: meeggtoast
Guide: Meeggtoast's Destroyer Dps Guide
People may like using the TR Stealth in an way which allows trash mobs to be outright skipped...
But I can basically promise that's not intended. That's outright exploiting in my books.
And no amount of whining that trash mobs aren't worth the time and effort will justify abusing the stealth and other game mechanics in an effort to skip mobs with minimal to no effort. The trash is there to be killed. If they wanted you to not kill it they wouldn't have put it there. If you can skip a handful all the more power to you but to simply skip 100% of the mobs between bosses is exploiting the system.
I don't know whether Cryptic agrees with me for sure. I don't know if they will punish those doing it. But I'd wager anything that in some way the abuse of stealth to skip content will be removed.
Yes and no. The rogue's damage goes up exponentially in melee range. A control Wizard could always lift them up into the air and end the threat with that but Devoted Clerics are too squishy to sustain melee blows from Trickster Rogues and lack any form of CC which would allow them to remain in melee range of a Trickster Rogue without taking damage.
Furthermore that entire concept goes out the window when you also couple in ItC. That's the nail on the coffin which destroys the risk rogues have to take when going within melee range of Control Wizards and Devoted Clerics.
Erm, There's no such thing as "Shocking Blade."
There's Shocking Execution and Lashing Blade. If you consider the changes made to Shocking Execution "small" (which happened over two months ago now) then by default changing CoS to diminish the health bar would be microscopic. Rogue have and still do complain about the Shocking Execution changes claiming it's worthless to have now.
And Lashing Blade might have had some small changes made to it (can't recall) but neither Shocking Execution or Lashing Blade has anything to do with the recent changes which were clearly an attempt to reduce the effectiveness of permastealth.
Furthermore #4 is more along the lines of a buff. It wasn't working as a control effect as it should have (bug) and as such cost rogues and other classes the bonus damage which is granted by attacking creatures effected by control effects.
Lovely suggestions. Nukeyoo covered most of it but let me re-iterate:
1. Move away. Nukeyoo nailed this. Once I get hit I am more than likely not getting away.
And I keep telling you winning a fight doesn't mean you kill them. If you remove a person from the fight you win. Even if I manage to leave my team loses in that situation. Anything which outright makes an enemy run from the battle is out of balance.
2. Easilly said. Play a DC and try doing that. Until that point you have no idea what other classes face.
3. Attack!? Attack what!? The entire point is that control wizards and devoted clerics can not use basically any of their attacks without having a target! If I can't see them I can't attack!
4. Dodging is quite easy. I can say with confidence that the months doing epic dungeons being a tank cleric has me and other cleric friends from that day in age quite proficient dodging attacks and maintaining positioning.
Thing is I have 2 uses of dodge off the bat and it takes me roughly 1.5-2 seconds until I can dodge again. I can't dodge 8 CoS, 3 Enounters and a daily with possibly 4 dodges if I am lucky. As nukeyoo said, at the very least the CoS will be used as an opener to take down half my health before I can do anything about the situation. If CoS was a skill shot it would be one thing but as far as I am concerned it is 6-8 guaranteed hits (8-12K Damage minimum) and if I opt to take 6 hits I now have to contend with 3 encounters and a daily with 1 dodge, possibly two if I survive for 2 seconds.
Yeah...it's not a learn to play deal. There is nothing I can do to retailiate or protect myself against that. I can try to outheal...it's not effective.
So unless you guys are clerics please stop pretending that life is that easy. The whole point is CoS has clerics and control wizards as sitting ducks. You can argue that all you want but they aren't good arguments. The rogue is a highly offensive class which has defensive powers to completely negate the ability of two classes from defending themselves at all for long periods of time and when played correctly is completely untouchable.
There's no learning to play against it. Moderate skill and a decent build with or without tenebrous will render rogues invulnerable. I have been killed by a single rogue while fighting alongside two wizards because we couldn't target or damage him before his DPS killed us.
That's not balanced. Lowering his damage output will help...
But the ability to go completely immune to everything Control Wizards and Devoted Clerics can throw at them will still exist with these proposed solutions. That above the damage output was always the problem.
EDIT P.S. - The number one issue I face in PvP is actually generating divinity. No divinity = no healing astral shield. No attacking = No Divinity.
probably not enough