I feel like they teased us with a super nerf so that when they changed it we would all be grateful that it isn't the class breaking nerf.
I still feel like the lurkers nerf is still too high. 60 to 25? TR are brought in to kill bosses faster, this combined with the DF stacking nerf is going to lower our worth in groups. Many posters have asked for the reason for the nerfs. PvP or PvE, we haven't heard any feedback on what the goal is so everyone is speculating. A little more communication would go a long way.
The OP said we can all agree that lurkers needed adjusting. I didn't think so. On bosses it helped me stay alive and do more damage. In pvp it was the only way to kill some GWF and GFs. If you are going to adjust it why start with a 50% reduction.
Keep in mind that 95% of rogues don't have perfect weapon enchants and this will hurt us.
"we all love this game and want it to thrive"
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bigbadbieberMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 24Arc User
edited August 2013
you know in League of Legends when they change a character they at least tell the community WHAT they are trying to accomplish
you are just making terrible blanket changes without any actual statements why
it seems you are trying to get rid of perma-stealth rogue in PvP, which is fine, but then you need to consider looking at perma stun CWs, GWFs and GFs. I play a perma stealth rogue and as soon as I leave stealth I can get locked down so hard and die, being in stealth permanently is my only defense to the abilities of other classes, take that away and I have very little
At-Wills Depleting Stealth
In the end, this change didn't really solve the issues that we wanted it to. There are still some exploitative ways to play the Rogue that we're looking at, but this change didn't end up solving the core issue and hurt normal (and creative) gameplay.
This nerf has never been about PvP which is *why* it wasn't a nerf to Perma-Stealth (which was still possible) - it's about Rogues soloing CN - Cryptic has little interest in balance or PvP (Tenes??) - the only time they make major changes like this is when something's <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> with PvE and/or the economy (look at Cleric's 'Righteousness' - 40% debuff because we had more gold than other players - look at the damage it's done to Clerics in PvP).
It still seems a little heavy handed. Why not try it out at say this first?
Lurkers reduced to 20 , 30, 40%
Cos reduce to 10 chargess down from 12
Bait and switch cooldown increased by 5 seconds
The flurry bleed was removed because it's a nerf to the skilled player versus the non skilled more than anything, and frankly reducing the skill cap is just silly, since skill should cause you to excel while playing any class.
I am frankly against class nerfing in almost all cases but if this is a PVP nerf which I think it is, An even better solution would be to first remove Tenebrous stacking, and possibly institute a gear score matching system for PVP.
Really when you get right down to it, what I mentioned above is not even needed, if it were me I'd probably just change the bait and switch cooldown and take a much closer look at things before doing a knee jerk nerf. Things like Tenebrous stacking first and foremost. Then see what the grand picture looks like afterward. Balance is about making small changes slowly. It's not about grabbing a sledge hammer to drive home a ten penny nail.
Another thing I'm wondering about is the awful time that it takes for Rogues to build meter for their dailies. As a GWF or GF I can slam out dailies every battle, it feels like. Whereas I need to build up forever whenever I'm playing a Rogue. I suspect the whole combat advantage thing doesn't actually work...
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firesoul31Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 34
edited August 2013
Finally found what I was looking for before, the inventor/author of the perma-stealth build said this:
As the one who created the Perma-Stealth Build, I'll give my 2 cents on the topic regarding alternative ways that will nerf/fix it rather then hurting the entire TR class.
1. A simple way that will stop Perma-Stealthing would be increasing Bait and Switch and Shadow Strike cool down by 2 or 3 seconds, with this they will not be able to do full rotations for refilling Stealth.
2. Another way would be making Shadow Strike or Bait and Switch not refill stealth 100%. This would definitely stop Perma-Stealthing.
Seems the dev's could look at this being a fix for perma-stealth if that is indeed what they are looking for to fix. If not, then I don't know. How much less damage they want us to do would be good to know.
Like I said, other people in the forums have studied this Ad nauseam, and have math to back up their claims. I'm not talking about somebody who just whips out numbers for stats sakes, but who have spreadsheets or other definable content.
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reagenlionel1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I'm comfortable with the change to Lurkers, but having at-will attacks not deplete stealth simply makes no logical sense.
Explain how someone can repeatedly throw daggers at a person and remain unnoticed? In PnP DnD, attacking broke stealth and cancelled invis every time.
If someone attacks from stealth throwing daggers. You can notice them. Its called trajectory. If you didnt know where someone was throwing handfuls of daggers at you one by one. then thats just failing to perceive on your part.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Thanks for listening to the community feedback. The changes seem reasonable but in the interest of disclosure I rarely use LA - like a good percentage of the aging male population I already have difficulty seeing red - add the LA colour change on top of that and AoE red circles are deadly for me.
I'm not a TR, and I believed the proposed changes were too severe as is. Kudos to you for following the testing information you saw on the preview Shard, and also listening to some of the well thought out posts I've seen about these proposed changes (though there were a LOT of craptacular ones! lol)... Thus I give the Devs props, well done!
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reagenlionel1Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Actually, these nerfs are anything but common sense and they're far from reasonable.
A common sense and reasonable nerf would be to get rid of Bait and Switch giving back 100% of stealth bar when used in stealth and replacing it with something else. A reasonable nerf would be to lower Lurker's Assault down to 40%, instead of the proposed 25% damage bonus. A common sense approach would be to leave Duelist's Flurry alone, as well as Cloud of Steel. And if they really wanted to balance this game's PvP, they'd properly nerf Greater Tenebrous stacking and take a long hard look at the truly OP classes such as GWFs and GFs.
Oh and by the way, there are tons of games out there, especially MOBA games where the developers listen to their customers / players a whole lot more than Cryptic does with us. They actually communicate regularly with their customers, not only when extreme outrage occurs such as what happened here. It took 10 days and thousands of "voices" for someone at Cryptic to finally come out and say something about this terrible nerf.
I wouldnt agree to take away Bait and Switch's stealth refill ability. That hurts people that uses partial stealth but not the full perma stealth build like me.
A more reasonable change would be to extend bait and switch's cooldown a few seconds.
Its a good utility skill and escape method.
At-Wills Depleting Stealth
In the end, this change didn't really solve the issues that we wanted it to. There are still some exploitative ways to play the Rogue that we're looking at, but this change didn't end up solving the core issue and hurt normal (and creative) gameplay. At-Will powers will no longer deplete your stealth.
My stealth is still being drained much more quickly on test than on live when I use At-Wills. It seems as though the stealth leech was not removed properly, and/or it could be the following issues:
When I have a Ioun Stone equipped, Gloaming Cut does not restore the stealth bar at all when I slay enemies, rather than granting 25% as it should.
Sneaky Stabber doesn't seem to be returning 10% of the stealth bar with each Gloaming Cut attack.
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twerkulatorrMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 55Arc User
edited August 2013
Awesome! This is so great to see that you guys really do listen to feedback. I do like the new changes much better, especially the at-wills not depleting stealth once again. How I feel about lurker's is yet to be seen but it's certainly an improvement.
YES! YES! YES! Tyvm Cryptic. I'm saddened that my favorite class is getting nerfed, but this is so much better than before. +1 to the devs. Now I can really look forward to this module
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New to the game? Check out my build guide to give you an idea on how to set up your characters!
A few changes to the Rogue will be going to Preview with the next patch:
At-Wills Depleting Stealth
In the end, this change didn't really solve the issues that we wanted it to. There are still some exploitative ways to play the Rogue that we're looking at, but this change didn't end up solving the core issue and hurt normal (and creative) gameplay. At-Will powers will no longer deplete your stealth.
This is good. Having at-will deplete stealth would have pretty much made stealth useless
Lurker's Assault
It would be tough to argue that Lurker's Assault didn't need some re-tuning. The damage bonus on it was just too extreme for both PVE and PVP. That said, the change to crit severity ended up being a bit too weak and favored certain feat builds too much. Lurker's Assault 5/10/15% crit severity has been replaced with 15/20/25% damage and the duration is back to 10 seconds.
This is way too much of a nerf. First, you nerf SE to the point that most rogues no longer use it. Now, you nerf LA from 60% to 25%? Seriously? What is the thinking on this? Why don't you just give the rogues a new daily "Give Flowers" which makes a bunch of roses appear in your hand so you can present them to the GWF who has unstoppable up and is trying to beat your face in while you are lying on your back and getting hitting for 10k a swing and while he is getting 30% health back AND takes reduced damage, or the CW that has you entangled, green beamed you and just fired Ice Knife at you which hit you for 22k. What about those?
This is supposed to be a DAILY power. It is supposed to make you hit HARD. 25% increase to damage with 3 points in it is a joke. 30/40/50 would be more appropriate or even 20/30/40.
Also, bring back the black and white. You can't tell when you use LA now!
May I suggest adding an increased chance of applying bleeds while in Lurkers assault?
Or Perhaps increased critical chance for Duelist's Flurry while in LA?
Or decrease the casting animation of DF while in LA?
Pick any 1 of those suggestions and think about how to tune it.
In my opinion in its current form LA is too weak in PvE.
This could solve the PvE problem of Lurker's Assault.
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coldfire473Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 16Arc User
My stealth is still being drained much more quickly on test than on live when I use At-Wills. It seems as though the stealth leech was not removed properly, and/or it could be the following issues:
When I have a Ioun Stone equipped, Gloaming Cut does not restore the stealth bar at all when I slay enemies, rather than granting 25% as it should.
Sneaky Stabber doesn't seem to be returning 10% of the stealth bar with each Gloaming Cut attack.
The changes go live with the NEXT patch on Preview. This is why your at-wills are still depleting your meter today.
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kingculexMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
This is good. Having at-will deplete stealth would have pretty much made stealth useless
This is way too much of a nerf. First, you nerf SE to the point that most rogues no longer use it. Now, you nerf LA from 60% to 25%? Seriously? What is the thinking on this? Why don't you just give the rogues a new daily "Give Flowers" which makes a bunch of roses appear in your hand so you can present them to the GWF who has unstoppable up and is trying to beat your face in while you are lying on your back and getting hitting for 10k a swing and while he is getting 30% health back AND takes reduced damage, or the CW that has you entangled, green beamed you and just fired Ice Knife at you which hit you for 22k. What about those?
This is supposed to be a DAILY power. It is supposed to make you hit HARD. 25% increase to damage with 3 points in it is a joke. 30/40/50 would be more appropriate or even 20/30/40.
Also, bring back the black and white. You can't tell when you use LA now!
I could not have said it better to be honest. The nerf was ridiculous in the first place and still is ridiculous. I like the challenge of fighting other classes in PVP with my TR. There are some really good players that can use their classes to kill anything. The challenge to adapt and take them down is part of the fun. The nerf to bleed is ridiculous and the nerf to LA is still to heavy handed. I normally do not talk about nerfing other classes but I will since TRs are being nerfed. How about the devs now take a close look at the GWFs and GFs? HMM? Some balancing is needed with those two classes.
Every class has advantages and disadvantages. Learn the disadvantages of you class to overcome them. Learn the advantages of your class and the disadvatages of other classes to use them in pvp to win.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
I'm glad to see they finally replied and showed us they were listening. They adjusted the nerf a bit but we still may be losing too much. Now we need to wait for them to apply the new patch on the preview server so we get back in there and test everything again and see how it works.
One proposed change I think we need is to give us our 4 daggers back in CoS and just slow them down. Make throwing a dagger take almost as long as any other ranged at will ability (the speed should be a bit faster because ours is limited). That is the only adjustment they need. Then if someone is stupid enough to get hit by all 12 in PVP it is their own fault. As it stands now I can throw all 12 in about 3 seconds. Maybe increase this to 6-9 seconds. If CoS was slowed down a perma-stealth rogue would "probably" have to break their chain of daggers and use another ability to maintain stealth. Then they would have to decide if they want to stay in stealth or go for the bonus damage and be seen by everyone.
And please do not bring back the black and white. I am not sure why anyone wants that back. I am not saying that in an insulting manner, I just don't understand how it could help anyone.
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julianalz55Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 89Arc User
The changes go live with the NEXT patch on Preview. This is why your at-wills are still depleting your meter today.
Thanks for the info regarding the changes not being implemented yet. I'll check it after the next patch.
The issue regarding the Ioun Stone and Gloaming Cut is a bug currently on live, so I'll see if that works tomorrow as well, or if I have to bug it so maybe they can fix it while they are under the hood anyway.
If someone attacks from stealth throwing daggers. You can notice them. Its called trajectory. If you didnt know where someone was throwing handfuls of daggers at you one by one. then thats just failing to perceive on your part.
Check the blue circle at your feet, stealth attacks light it up red.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
At-Wills Depleting Stealth
In the end, this change didn't really solve the issues that we wanted it to. There are still some exploitative ways to play the Rogue that we're looking at, but this change didn't end up solving the core issue and hurt normal (and creative) gameplay. At-Will powers will no longer deplete your stealth.
I implore you that was the only thing you should have done...
At least it's what should be applied to CoS.
I couldn't care less if rogues melee me in stealth because I can dodge that but I only have two dodges out of 8 CoS Strikes. As a cleric CoS from stealth is a death sentence. Reducing it to 8 will reduce the ability that they will take me from full to nothing purely with CoS but they can easily finish me off with no consequence by dumping 6-8 knives and an encounter and I only have two dodges to work with.
The changes will still make it better...
But as far as I am concerned you can give them back their full on Lurker's Assault as long as CoS reduces their stealth. CoS from stealth is my problem with them. Everything else I couldn't care less about.
Pretty much what i've been expecting. Thank you for listening! Plus like i've said combat really is the highlight of this game, of course the dnd background, but combat, yes! and you guys are really doing the 'crucial' work of all, so keep up with it!
PS: I notice some ppl are still unsatisfied since the stealth got restored, I just wanna say im not a fanatic who has to stealth kill but the stealth mechanism is really unique in this game, if you really wanna replace it, propose a good mechanism but not a devastating one, like the presently beening previewed one. it is definitely game destroying exprience for anyone who would ever play a rogue. Good game for all!
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Pretty much what i've been expecting. Thank you for listening! Plus like i've said combat really is the highlight of this game, of course the dnd background, but combat, yes! and you guys are really doing the 'crucial' work of all, so keep up with it!
PS: I notice some ppl are still unsatisfied since the stealth got restored, I just wanna say im not a fanatic who has to stealth kill but the stealth mechanism is really unique in this game, if you really wanna replace it, propose a good mechanism but not a devastating one, like the presently beening previewed one. it is definitely game destroying exprience for anyone who would ever play a rogue. Good game for all!
I agree but CoS + Stealth = game destroying experience for a Devoted Cleric and Control Wizard.
Especially now that I have noticed Rogues getting a bit smarter and realizing they can alternate between stealth and ItC.
I agree the Lurker's change was bad...and as I said I couldn't care less about melee attacks in stealth because if I keep moving I can at least survive...
But CoS + Stealth is inexcusable and needs to diminish the stealth meter or become a skill shot rather than auto aim. Again as far as I am concerned they can keep their +60% damage as long as CoS gets the knife.
I agree but CoS + Stealth = game destroying experience for a Devoted Cleric and Control Wizard.
Especially now that I have noticed Rogues getting a bit smarter and realizing they can alternate between stealth and ItC.
I agree the Lurker's change was bad...and as I said I couldn't care less about melee attacks in stealth because if I keep moving I can at least survive...
But CoS + Stealth is inexcusable and needs to diminish the stealth meter or become a skill shot rather than auto aim. Again as far as I am concerned they can keep their +60% damage as long as CoS gets the knife.
There's a lot of validity to what you're saying, but I'm not sure it's going to get the devs' attentions since I don't think these nerfs had much to do with pvp or the incessant whining but more to do with TRs being OP in boss fights. CoS isn't really a big factor in that while LA is what's used to burn down bosses so had to be crippled. Only instead of reducing TR effectiveness they clumsily destroyed it.
So now it's back to a straight up damage nerf on LA, much the same as they did to SE.
Although in truth the real culprit in these Epic farming runs is the teneb stacking that allows LA to be so devastating. Most TRs don't have those and aren't anywhere near as OP. Nerf tenebs and problem solved, plus PVP will also be much more balanced.
Comments
I still feel like the lurkers nerf is still too high. 60 to 25? TR are brought in to kill bosses faster, this combined with the DF stacking nerf is going to lower our worth in groups. Many posters have asked for the reason for the nerfs. PvP or PvE, we haven't heard any feedback on what the goal is so everyone is speculating. A little more communication would go a long way.
The OP said we can all agree that lurkers needed adjusting. I didn't think so. On bosses it helped me stay alive and do more damage. In pvp it was the only way to kill some GWF and GFs. If you are going to adjust it why start with a 50% reduction.
Keep in mind that 95% of rogues don't have perfect weapon enchants and this will hurt us.
you are just making terrible blanket changes without any actual statements why
it seems you are trying to get rid of perma-stealth rogue in PvP, which is fine, but then you need to consider looking at perma stun CWs, GWFs and GFs. I play a perma stealth rogue and as soon as I leave stealth I can get locked down so hard and die, being in stealth permanently is my only defense to the abilities of other classes, take that away and I have very little
What gives you that impression?
This nerf has never been about PvP which is *why* it wasn't a nerf to Perma-Stealth (which was still possible) - it's about Rogues soloing CN - Cryptic has little interest in balance or PvP (Tenes??) - the only time they make major changes like this is when something's <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> with PvE and/or the economy (look at Cleric's 'Righteousness' - 40% debuff because we had more gold than other players - look at the damage it's done to Clerics in PvP).
Lurkers reduced to 20 , 30, 40%
Cos reduce to 10 chargess down from 12
Bait and switch cooldown increased by 5 seconds
The flurry bleed was removed because it's a nerf to the skilled player versus the non skilled more than anything, and frankly reducing the skill cap is just silly, since skill should cause you to excel while playing any class.
I am frankly against class nerfing in almost all cases but if this is a PVP nerf which I think it is, An even better solution would be to first remove Tenebrous stacking, and possibly institute a gear score matching system for PVP.
Really when you get right down to it, what I mentioned above is not even needed, if it were me I'd probably just change the bait and switch cooldown and take a much closer look at things before doing a knee jerk nerf. Things like Tenebrous stacking first and foremost. Then see what the grand picture looks like afterward. Balance is about making small changes slowly. It's not about grabbing a sledge hammer to drive home a ten penny nail.
Seems the dev's could look at this being a fix for perma-stealth if that is indeed what they are looking for to fix. If not, then I don't know. How much less damage they want us to do would be good to know.
Like I said, other people in the forums have studied this Ad nauseam, and have math to back up their claims. I'm not talking about somebody who just whips out numbers for stats sakes, but who have spreadsheets or other definable content.
Opened up comments, because I would love to hear what everyone says, even the naysayers.
http://goo.gl/TiX1kO
If someone attacks from stealth throwing daggers. You can notice them. Its called trajectory. If you didnt know where someone was throwing handfuls of daggers at you one by one. then thats just failing to perceive on your part.
The OP saying they don't want to hurt creative gameplay almost indicates to me that they don't want to cripple that build altogether.
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Also very encouraging to know that the developers actually seem to take notice of the community in regards to such things.
I wouldnt agree to take away Bait and Switch's stealth refill ability. That hurts people that uses partial stealth but not the full perma stealth build like me.
A more reasonable change would be to extend bait and switch's cooldown a few seconds.
Its a good utility skill and escape method.
It's simple really...this is not your Dad's PnP DnD game.
My stealth is still being drained much more quickly on test than on live when I use At-Wills. It seems as though the stealth leech was not removed properly, and/or it could be the following issues:
When I have a Ioun Stone equipped, Gloaming Cut does not restore the stealth bar at all when I slay enemies, rather than granting 25% as it should.
Sneaky Stabber doesn't seem to be returning 10% of the stealth bar with each Gloaming Cut attack.
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This is good. Having at-will deplete stealth would have pretty much made stealth useless
This is way too much of a nerf. First, you nerf SE to the point that most rogues no longer use it. Now, you nerf LA from 60% to 25%? Seriously? What is the thinking on this? Why don't you just give the rogues a new daily "Give Flowers" which makes a bunch of roses appear in your hand so you can present them to the GWF who has unstoppable up and is trying to beat your face in while you are lying on your back and getting hitting for 10k a swing and while he is getting 30% health back AND takes reduced damage, or the CW that has you entangled, green beamed you and just fired Ice Knife at you which hit you for 22k. What about those?
This is supposed to be a DAILY power. It is supposed to make you hit HARD. 25% increase to damage with 3 points in it is a joke. 30/40/50 would be more appropriate or even 20/30/40.
Also, bring back the black and white. You can't tell when you use LA now!
Or Perhaps increased critical chance for Duelist's Flurry while in LA?
Or decrease the casting animation of DF while in LA?
Pick any 1 of those suggestions and think about how to tune it.
In my opinion in its current form LA is too weak in PvE.
This could solve the PvE problem of Lurker's Assault.
I could not have said it better to be honest. The nerf was ridiculous in the first place and still is ridiculous. I like the challenge of fighting other classes in PVP with my TR. There are some really good players that can use their classes to kill anything. The challenge to adapt and take them down is part of the fun. The nerf to bleed is ridiculous and the nerf to LA is still to heavy handed. I normally do not talk about nerfing other classes but I will since TRs are being nerfed. How about the devs now take a close look at the GWFs and GFs? HMM? Some balancing is needed with those two classes.
There is no point to whine for nerfs because you win some and loose some. Crying just makes a player look like a crier and no one, especially the devs, should take them seriously. Have a nice day!:)
One proposed change I think we need is to give us our 4 daggers back in CoS and just slow them down. Make throwing a dagger take almost as long as any other ranged at will ability (the speed should be a bit faster because ours is limited). That is the only adjustment they need. Then if someone is stupid enough to get hit by all 12 in PVP it is their own fault. As it stands now I can throw all 12 in about 3 seconds. Maybe increase this to 6-9 seconds. If CoS was slowed down a perma-stealth rogue would "probably" have to break their chain of daggers and use another ability to maintain stealth. Then they would have to decide if they want to stay in stealth or go for the bonus damage and be seen by everyone.
And please do not bring back the black and white. I am not sure why anyone wants that back. I am not saying that in an insulting manner, I just don't understand how it could help anyone.
Thanks for the info regarding the changes not being implemented yet. I'll check it after the next patch.
The issue regarding the Ioun Stone and Gloaming Cut is a bug currently on live, so I'll see if that works tomorrow as well, or if I have to bug it so maybe they can fix it while they are under the hood anyway.
Check the blue circle at your feet, stealth attacks light it up red.
I implore you that was the only thing you should have done...
At least it's what should be applied to CoS.
I couldn't care less if rogues melee me in stealth because I can dodge that but I only have two dodges out of 8 CoS Strikes. As a cleric CoS from stealth is a death sentence. Reducing it to 8 will reduce the ability that they will take me from full to nothing purely with CoS but they can easily finish me off with no consequence by dumping 6-8 knives and an encounter and I only have two dodges to work with.
The changes will still make it better...
But as far as I am concerned you can give them back their full on Lurker's Assault as long as CoS reduces their stealth. CoS from stealth is my problem with them. Everything else I couldn't care less about.
25% is more then enough for LA. CoS should increase stealth drain still.
PS: I notice some ppl are still unsatisfied since the stealth got restored, I just wanna say im not a fanatic who has to stealth kill but the stealth mechanism is really unique in this game, if you really wanna replace it, propose a good mechanism but not a devastating one, like the presently beening previewed one. it is definitely game destroying exprience for anyone who would ever play a rogue. Good game for all!
I agree but CoS + Stealth = game destroying experience for a Devoted Cleric and Control Wizard.
Especially now that I have noticed Rogues getting a bit smarter and realizing they can alternate between stealth and ItC.
I agree the Lurker's change was bad...and as I said I couldn't care less about melee attacks in stealth because if I keep moving I can at least survive...
But CoS + Stealth is inexcusable and needs to diminish the stealth meter or become a skill shot rather than auto aim. Again as far as I am concerned they can keep their +60% damage as long as CoS gets the knife.
There's a lot of validity to what you're saying, but I'm not sure it's going to get the devs' attentions since I don't think these nerfs had much to do with pvp or the incessant whining but more to do with TRs being OP in boss fights. CoS isn't really a big factor in that while LA is what's used to burn down bosses so had to be crippled. Only instead of reducing TR effectiveness they clumsily destroyed it.
So now it's back to a straight up damage nerf on LA, much the same as they did to SE.
Although in truth the real culprit in these Epic farming runs is the teneb stacking that allows LA to be so devastating. Most TRs don't have those and aren't anywhere near as OP. Nerf tenebs and problem solved, plus PVP will also be much more balanced.