Haha that was me (the thread originator) who said "don't hold your breath for nerfs."
I totally agree with that last sentence above I quoted from you, but there are going to be some frustrated people that are going to disagree with us (some of them quite vehemently). If they have poured money into the game, then their sense of entitlement is going to be even larger, as they are "paying customers". Which, again, I can totally understand -- while not necessarily agreeing with their point of view, nor giving their sense of entitlement any undue weight that it does not deserve.
I think one of the major problems with all the furor on the forums about this issue is not just from the people who are overly pissed-off, but also the people who respond to this angst with "L2P" and a personal insult. IMO that isn't helping anything or anybody at all... but there is little that can be done about that.
My sincere wish is for people who start "nerf rogue" threads to be calmly/politely directed to this thread WITHOUT any name-calling or insults. I understand that the chances of this happening much, if at all, are probably very close to zero. LOL
Well I think this thread has been pretty well argued and respected for the most part. It's a nice thing to see, when I'm reading all your replies I see information I can use, examples that don't make me facepalm, and people giving away good tactics just to prove that you can level the playing field without ruining a developers month.
In Dom there's a robust award for capturing modes, so some players (people sitting at their computer) will spend most of the match ping ponging to wherever a opposition controlled node is. This leads to many uneven matchups in the rest of the field, and rogue benefits from this. If the player who left to cap two is a mage, he should probably follow and make the kill. If it was a GF who left to cap, maybe he stays and uses the 3-2 advantage to quickly take down two targets and control his current node.
You have to know when to move and when to stay, and the players on both sides determine where you should be.
I hate GWFs for their "long-range-melee" at-wills (due to their long sword they can hit you even if you are at some distance, making kiting a little bit harder)
I hate GFs for their stupid block which regenerates right after you completely removed it from them, not to mention how they can knockdown a whole team in one shot if you do not pay attention
I hate CWs for their stupid choke and freeze and longer range abilities (longer than my DC) and the stupid push
I hate DCs for their healing, 1v1 is stupid with them
I hate TRs for their CoS + Lashing Blade kills
there is nothing wrong with all the above, all classes have something of their own, something they are good at, none is invincible
the only problem atm are the high lvl enchants, which give the ability to one shot, other than that.. it's all good and fun
I play a TR and a DC and love both of them.
as a TR I get my lurker's assault interrupted very often, I get knocked down, pushed, slowed, dazed and hit while in stealth.. some times it hurts how stealth seems to not be a problem at all, for the other classes but it also saves me a lot allowing me to run away..
as a DC I don't have problems with TRs, it's not that hard to dodge their attacks, their animations are stupid slow and they are somewhat predictable (maybe to me, because I also play a TR) after a couple of minutes you already know their rotations
and I've killed TRs 1v1 with my DC (it makes them very angry )
I admit as a DC sometimes I don't get any kills but I always top the assists chart and I am very satisfied when I save my teammates.. and when the entire opposing team focus on killing me, I feel good, it means I do my job and I'm a threat for them..
maybe it's off topic, but I just wanted to give my 2 cents
try to play the class that gives you a hard time, or talk to people who play that class, read on forums and find out how you can counter them
Not off-topic at all, ujavcad, and thank you for sharing.
I think you say quite well what many rogues have said in the past in the nerf threads, and that's "if a class is giving you a hard time, try to play one to learn about them," and that is such excellent advice that it bears repeating. You can more easily handle rogues as a DC because you know them.
notice how the rogue is extremely effective when solo but also is absolutely ignored when the target is engaged. Note also how taking damage does nothing to mitigate their ability to come and go in stealth and AoE templates are avoided with laughable ease.
Exactly, it's not just TR's out there. But what you are describing are the actions of the opponent, and that says absolutely nothing about the powers or skills of a TR. And all of that applies to all other classes.
IntRogue does nothing but play pvp with his guild, he's that good.
If he's got Tenacious Concealment up, he's taking 90% less loss to stealth from damage. He's also got a DC running in his team, so like you said, it's not just the TR out there.
Moving won’t save you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yng4nZBdMhM
Here we see a rogue demolishing an entire party. Notice how the significant damage is always done from stealth where they cannot be seen and can evade the target easily.
Keyword is "easily", which is not impossible. Looking at the video I see lots of Rays of Enfeeblements, meaning the TR is not alone.
Stealth saves
It is expected that you will die in PVP but stealth will save you. It’s not a magic iwin button but all it takes is a corner and stealth will turn a mortal situation right back into a rogue dominant situation. So if the opposing team does not outright kill you, you can still thin their herd with ease.
That applies to all classes: if they don't beat down on you, you beat down on them.
The effects of stealth damage cannot be effectively countered with maneuvering because the stealthy aggressor can simply reposition even past other enemies or among other enemy targets to deliver damage unopposed. Can other classes do that?
Repositioning means reseting CoS and it seems you still work under the false assumption that stealth is invisibility. It is not. There are a number of counters mentioned in this thread that relate to maneuvering, why do you ignore those?
You could argue that all the above visual evidence is biased, that the opposition is just bad and anyway what rogue would put up a vid of him or herself getting owned. But can it be that everyone else is really bad? Can it be that so many people are suddenly so bad at this particular game and all referencing stealth coincidentally?
Could it also be that the vocal minority on these boards have a rage of the week? Right now the absolute public OP class is: GF and GWF and TR and CW.... just DC not so much.
Could it be that a lot of posts are written by people who would rather whine than practice?
Yes, a lot of people could use better information before they come on the boards claiming OPness.
In my opinion, that I feel is supported by the above observations, stealth is an amazing ability and attacking from stealth is more than just dangerous for the target. It offers the rogue the ability to do things other classes simply cannot do in any way and when min/maxed will trump other min/maxed abilities with ease.
You can say I am wrong, but I don’t think you can prove it.
I take it you mean to say is that stealth has more benefits than any other power in the game, right?
Yet you also state there are no counters, while there are. A TR takes no stealthloss from damage, which they do. And stealth makes a TR impossible to target, which it doesn't.
I correctly labeled Norn as prejudiced against stealth due to the fact that all the facts, taken in context, quite clearly show that stealth is NOT an "easy trump" vs. all other class abilities. The relevant facts that are missing are everything else that can easily be found all over the forums concerning this topic, including many posts just in this particular thread. Therefore, I inferred that he was arguing from a pre-decided outcome that he wanted to generate, rather then letting the facts speak for themselves. It is a very common thing to do -- to have an idea of what you want to believe, and then only "seeing" the evidence that supports your belief while ignoring the evidence that does not.
I did not ignore the videos. What I saw was a top-notch player in top-notch gear doing quite well for himself. I saw a rogue narrowly escape being pwned = rogues are not invulnerable and can get their butts kicked/chased off. You and several others interpreted what they saw differently from me, because there is a pre-determined narrative you are trying to craft here -- you are trying to manipulate, rather than illuminate. Which is pretty basic human nature, so I can understand that.
I knew from the start that a thread titled in such a way as this one would be a magnet for exactly what it hopes to dispel. I also know that I am NOT going to change the minds of anyone who has already thoroughly decided what they want to believe on this matter. This thread exists to shed some light on stealth and its mechanics for the newer folks who just don't know much about it and come to the forums -- perhaps after a bad match or ten -- and want to learn more. It can also be linked to from other threads that are started by the frustrated people who are emotional and could use a kinder response in their newly minted "nerf rogues" thread than "L2P" and "you suck".
Addendum: I hope it's clear by now that I continue to indulge your posts with responses because it gives me an opportunity to clarify on other posts that I and others have made... for the benefit of those who are not quite decided in this issue. When you run out of ammo -- and you will -- I will certainly miss my newest best friend on the forums.
This is exactly what you are doing.
I know I won't either. That's why I stated on numerous occasions that the irrational will not be rationalized with.
Run out of ammo? I haven't been firing anything merely agreeing with some rational folks and telling them there's no point in arguing with the majority of you folks. We already agreed to disagree remember? You might want to think about some lubrication for that suppository I was talking about earlier though! :cool:
Moving won’t save you http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yng4nZBdMhM
Here we see a rogue demolishing an entire party. Notice how the significant damage is always done from stealth where they cannot be seen and can evade the target easily. Once the target is low enough in health to pose no serious risk the rogue can exit stealth and finish them off easily. Note how the targets are moving the whole time with the possible exception of the poor schlub who gets helped up by his buddy only to get murdered instantly again by the rogue who is standing right beside them, stealthed, waiting to the fellow to get back up.
Also, we are talking about the guy (INTRogue) who may play the stealth rogue build better than most anyone, at least in the top 1%... again -- player skill matters.
IntRogue does nothing but play pvp with his guild, he's that good.
What it seems is that most people view the Perma-Stealth skill level and capabilities towards just 1 player, just because this 1 player is seemingly "OP" taking out multiple targets and not a scratch on him doesn't mean a newbie player can pick up this build, copy it, and expect the same results and I guess thats where most of the misconception comes from, seeing a good player play the game and people automatically say "This needs nerf" without knowing the basics of it all. So good job on the stealth mechanic FAQ
I know I won't either. That's why I stated on numerous occasions that the irrational will not be rationalized with.
Run out of ammo? I haven't been firing anything merely agreeing with some rational folks and telling them there's no point in arguing with the majority of you folks. We already agreed to disagree remember? You might want to think about some lubrication for that suppository I was talking about earlier though! :cool:
Basically, the argument for stealth nerf is based upon only considering cases wherein a rogue is able to do massive damage and/or stay hidden so much and be so mobile that it is believed that they are "untouchable". The fallacy of this is attributing the cause of these cases to the stealth, without also considering other factors like gear, PVP experience, player flexibility (thanks marla), and teamwork.
When the entire data set is considered, it becomes apparent that rogues are NOT undying death machines that cannot be defeated.
Basically, the argument for stealth nerf is based upon only considering cases wherein a rogue is able to do massive damage and/or stay hidden so much and be so mobile that it is believed that they are "untouchable". The fallacy of this is attributing the cause of these cases to the stealth, without also considering other factors like gear, PVP experience, player flexibility (thanks marla), and teamwork.
He does have a point though, it's tempting to tweak arguments a bit to better suit the point your making. And people only see what they want to see, us included. I know I tended to be a bit one-sided when I was only playing TR. But now I got to defend almost every class against unnecessary nerfs
If you want to 'prove' OPness of a class, or find ways to counter them, roll them, play them. There are several posts of people on the boards that did, and mostly they're loving it. You really need to get a feel of the class before you can nerf them.
He does have a point though, it's tempting to tweak arguments a bit to better suit the point your making. And people only see what they want to see, us included. I know I tended to be a bit one-sided when I was only playing TR. But now I got to defend almost every class against unnecessary nerfs
If you want to 'prove' OPness of a class, or find ways to counter them, roll them, play them. There are several posts of people on the boards that did, and mostly they're loving it. You really need to get a feel of the class before you can nerf them.
Haha, well said.
But I think it's been made clear enough by now that nobody is saying the TR is a weak class or that they do not have the potential to really wreak havoc. I would just like to see that the root causes of these cases of total PWNage are correctly identified, and not based upon hyperbole and misconception.
Gear, Talent, Experience, Flexibility, Teamwork -- these are all factors that must be considered in order to make a valid argument either for or against nerf. IMO, with other classes having these same benefits, the game is pretty fairly balanced. Some folks like to point at permastealth as some kind of smoking gun, as if it should be impossible for some reason, while disregarding the sacrifices that must be made and the player skill it takes to make the build work well. If one applies that much dedication to any other class and gears it out in a similar "OP" fashion, with the same amount of experience with the class and so on, we have yet another "OP build"... and thus, the multitude of nerf threads concerning the other classes and not just the TR.
Is it the class itself that is making builds OP? Anyone looking at all the data is forced to say no.
Haha, my allusion to the Texas Sharpshooter's Fallacy... running out of ammo... hmmm, nevermind.
From wikipedia: The Texas sharpshooter fallacy often arises when a person has a large amount of data at his disposal, but only focuses on a small subset of that data.
Basically, the argument for stealth nerf is based upon only considering cases wherein a rogue is able to do massive damage and/or stay hidden so much and be so mobile that it is believed that they are "untouchable". The fallacy of this is attributing the cause of these cases to the stealth, without also considering other factors like gear, PVP experience, player flexibility (thanks marla), and teamwork.
When the entire data set is considered, it becomes apparent that rogues are NOT undying death machines that cannot be defeated.
I hope this simplifies things for those who are bothering to follow along.
I believe the argument is for perma stealth + ranged dmg nerf. Not solely stealth itself. Continue down playing it though. The small subset of data I see being focused on in defense of the video evidence is skilled player + gear/enchants. I sure am glad that this game has such a high skill cap for every class and that the gear and enchants aren't available to everyone! :rolleyes:
I believe the argument is for perma stealth + ranged dmg nerf. Not solely stealth itself.
While I feel the same way about stealth+CoS+Enchantments, you can't deny the fact there are numerous nerf-threads out there that want to make stealth like wearing a paper bag to hide in.
Anecdotal: I just dinged my DC 60 and where pre-60 I could stand a hit or two, in green gear it's insta-kill post-60. I do understand the early frustration of any class first hitting major league pvp. I had it with every character. It also takes a couple of matches to get back in the game, my first runs on any class are a complete massacre, for me.
For all my classes I pvped for all the gear, and this is a great training exercise to get to know the class, its weakness and strength.
For me anyway, the biggest frustration is that it can be over so incredibly quickly. I just think this has more to do with (my lack of) skill than any OP power.
Anecdotal: I just dinged my DC 60 and where pre-60 I could stand a hit or two, in green gear it's insta-kill post-60. I do understand the early frustration of any class first hitting major league pvp. I had it with every character. It also takes a couple of matches to get back in the game, my first runs on any class are a complete massacre, for me.
For me anyway, the biggest frustration is that it can be over so incredibly quickly. I just think this has more to do with (my lack of) skill than any OP power.
If I started pvp at level 60 (not saying you did, just that your example is so classic) I can understand the frustration that anyone of any class would have. Even in full Tier 1 pvp gear as a CW the difference between pre-60 pvp and pvp at 60 is amazing-its like a totally different (and worse) game.
At least if you build a "perma-stealth" rogue you can more easily choose your fights and stay out of the fire, which is what I often did as a rogue in the "weak levels" while levelling. Other classes just have to die.
But if you pvp extensively while levelling, you will know that the classes are actually really well balanced on the whole. I don't know exactly what makes the game change so much at level cap. Maybe there is a way to tone down CoS + stealth at level cap only if it really is an issue?
As much as people complain about it, its hard for me to understand because I never really had an issue on CW with rogues until level cap (and all the classes seem to hit way too hard anyway at that point), and as a rogue I felt I had a good trade-off by going either a stealth/trickster route that had good survivability (through lots of stealth) but did relatively little damage or a crit/damage build that did massive damage but was much more squishy.
I'm sorry, but when I'm determining whether a class is OP or not. I'm not negating what Tommy can do with a class just because Sally doesn't know what she's doing. Nor am I negating due to Billy having a sparkler and Latisha does not.
I'm comparing what a class is capable of doing. End game... end of story. Saying something is not a bit over powered just because Sally and Latisha are unskilled or under geared is asinine.
I'm comparing what a class is capable of doing. End game... end of story. Saying something is not a bit over powered just because Sally and Latisha are unskilled or under geared is asinine.
I'm sorry, but this argument doesn't work since that is precisely what it is about. Someone who uses a permastealth build then plays it like LEEEEROY JENKINS isn't going to do as well as a GWF who plays that same way (which is a large number of GWF's). Skills and gear matter a tremendous amount, particularly when talking about permastealth rogues since most of them crumple like wet tissue paper when you hit them - which isn't hard unless they are very good at managing their cooldowns and movement.
This argument means that technically every class (well, not DC's) is overpowered since all are capable of being absolute monsters when properly geared and played by a skilled player.
The right to command is earned through duty, the privilege of rank is service.
Thanks rabbinicus, and may I add that LEEEEROY references are always welcome.
@zellista: I'm sorry I missed you earlier. You posted this:
You can whine about how CoS only has 12 shots and does little damage and <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, being outside your stealth danger zone while dealing damage is what makes people say its OP. My TR without any tenebrous enchantments NOR debuffs can bring down an average-good geared CW/TR/DC from 100% to 50-0% with just 13-14 hits of CoS (charge cooldown is roughly 4 seconds). My CW can never hope to achieve that kind of damage without debuffing the <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> out of my target (assailing force COI/double ROE). Per hit damage of CoS on my TR is pretty much double that of my CW's magic missiles damage, and my TR only has 2.1k power or so, compared to my CW's 3.2k.
And I think that it is relevant to the discussion here, as this thread has sorta become a debate about CoS as well. Several rogues (myself included) are already on record here saying that a change to CoS would not be out of hand. I suggested a charge cap of 10 to take out the most damaging daggers at the end of the chain. But it has also been noted by others that folks who don't break the chain before those last couple of daggers are either CCed or don't know any better.
I will admit that I am undecided about this. It can be seen from one perspective to be wildly OP, but many of the anecdotes of folks getting creamed by CoS are forgetting that Lurker's may have been involved as well and that's +60%. I think more information would be handy, and what you posted above is a great start.
I'm sorry, but this argument doesn't work since that is precisely what it is about. Someone who uses a permastealth build then plays it like LEEEEROY JENKINS isn't going to do as well as a GWF who plays that same way (which is a large number of GWF's). Skills and gear matter a tremendous amount, particularly when talking about permastealth rogues since most of them crumple like wet tissue paper when you hit them - which isn't hard unless they are very good at managing their cooldowns and movement.
This argument means that technically every class (well, not DC's) is overpowered since all are capable of being absolute monsters when properly geared and played by a skilled player.
Lol I'm not sure how you guys interpret some of the things you interpret but it makes me By your logic if I understand it correctly. Tommy and Billy should continue face rolling due in part to Sally's incompetence and Latisha, well she poe. :rolleyes:
Lol I'm not sure how you guys interpret some of the things you interpret but it makes me By your logic if I understand it correctly. Tommy and Billy should continue face rolling due in part to Sally's incompetence and Latisha, well she poe. :rolleyes:
Don't try to overcomplicate things to muddy the waters, my friend... this is where we are at:
Theorem 1: Stealth is not OP because in order to roll face you must be full of high-end gear and know what you are doing, and even then it can be countered by classes who are equally geared and have the experience necessary to not make tactical mistakes when facing it.
Theorem 2: Stealth (perhaps specifically permastealth) is an OP mechanic due to its very nature, and gives the rogue an unfair advantage that cannot be adequately countered, despite gear, skill, experience, or teamwork.
I think I have done a pretty good job concatenating these theorems from various posts that have been made in this thread. Some of us agree more with #1, some of us more with #2. Evidence has been presented by both sides to support their viewpoints. There have been disagreements with the validity or relevance of this evidence.
Did I miss something, or does that look about right?
I'm comparing what a class is capable of doing. End game... end of story. Saying something is not a bit over powered just because Sally and Latisha are unskilled or under geared is asinine.
Don't try to overcomplicate things to muddy the waters, my friend... this is where we are at:
Theorem 1: Stealth is not OP because in order to roll face you must be full of high-end gear and know what you are doing, and even then it can be countered by classes who are equally geared and have the experience necessary to not make tactical mistakes when facing it.
Theorem 2: Stealth (perhaps specifically permastealth) is an OP mechanic due to its very nature, and gives the rogue an unfair advantage that cannot be adequately countered, despite gear, skill, experience, or teamwork.
I think I have done a pretty good job concatenating these theorems from various posts that have been made in this thread. Some of us agree more with #1, some of us more with #2. Evidence has been presented by both sides to support their viewpoints. There have been disagreements with the validity or relevance of this evidence.
Did I miss something, or does that look about right?
Sorry wasn't attempting to muddy the waters. It looks like a pretty clear cut analogy to me. But yes those two theorems look to adequately cover the spectrum of this discussion.
Well, some TRs got the stupid "hint" that a stealthed TR with a mark will be visible by the red "X".
Well, thats NOT true.
I tested it several times, marked as many TRs as possible in PvP by using threatening rush and enforced threat, and there was no "X" visible. I tried to block everything so that there was a small chance, to see the "X" on a stealthed TR ... but there wasnt anything. Visible TRs with a mark on them switched to stealth mode and lost the "X" in the moment stealth has been activated.
If you want people to stay for the match end even when you're sitting on a 600-10 score and you've decided to be ***-hats and spawn-camp, you need to give them a reason. Punishing them is not the answer. That's just pouring salt-acid into an already bleeding wound.
Well, some TRs got the stupid "hint" that a stealthed TR with a mark will be visible by the red "X".
Well, thats NOT true.
I tested it several times, marked as many TRs as possible in PvP by using threatening rush and enforced threat, and there was no "X" visible. I tried to block everything so that there was a small chance, to see the "X" on a stealthed TR ... but there wasnt anything. Visible TRs with a mark on them switched to stealth mode and lost the "X" in the moment stealth has been activated.
Take a look at that video. Start at around 6:00, you'll see a rogue who gets nailed by a mark around 6:10, goes stealth shortly thereafter as he runs away, and the mark is still on him as he is invisible, until it wears off from time passing.
Around 1:20ish, the GF finds a rogue and savagely pwns him, using a mark halfway through the rather short fight that sticks to the rogue even though he tries to go invisible and run away. Stealth didn't help. Amusingly, another rogue suddenly pops up and tries to gank the GF, who shrugs off the ambush and takes down the second rogue.
Used 0.25 speed... Video 2 is showing that all TR which said something about marks and stealth IS NOT TRUE! At 1:20 in Video 2 the TR is out of target area of the GF and the whole(!) TR disappears and the mark disappears too. In the moment the TR is in focus again, the TR and the mark is shown clearly.
Going stealth while beeing marked as TR: Mark is stealthed too and will be shown only in case that the TR will be targeted!
If you want people to stay for the match end even when you're sitting on a 600-10 score and you've decided to be ***-hats and spawn-camp, you need to give them a reason. Punishing them is not the answer. That's just pouring salt-acid into an already bleeding wound.
Masu, I don't know what else to tell you, buddy. You said the marks fall off, and they don't. Clearly in the videos, there is an invisible dude with a mark on him. Does it last for a really long time? No. In the first video, the rogue gets away and puts some distance between himself and the GF who tagged him. In the second video, the mark falls off because the rogue has been slaughtered.
You keep trying to say that TR's are so OP -- watch that second video. I saw 2 TR's get wasted by a single GF in just the first two minutes. They tried lashing blades and everything... the GF blocked and wrecked them.
Masu, I don't know what else to tell you, buddy. You said the marks fall off, and they don't. Clearly in the videos, there is an invisible dude with a mark on him.
The TR went stealth and the mark went stealth too.
In the moment the TR will be targeted, the TR and the mark will be shown too.
A TR which is not targeted by YOU will not be shown for YOU. Marks does not change this fact. Watch video, reduce the speed of the video because the TR is out of focus for a very short duration or TEST it ingame before talking BULL SH*T in forums!
Does it last for a really long time? No. In the first video, the rogue gets away and puts some distance between himself and the GF who tagged him. In the second video, the mark falls off because the rogue has been slaughtered.
First Vid mark wasnt a "X", it was a "!". Doesnt look like an actual version of NW.
You keep trying to say that TR's are so OP -- watch that second video. I saw 2 TR's get wasted by a single GF in just the first two minutes. They tried lashing blades and everything... the GF blocked and wrecked them.
the TR made a lot of mistakes!
1) riding near to enemies = free stun! Just hit them while they are on the horse and they are falling down (prone!)
2) stunlock of GF. TR is loosing 50-70% his hitpoints. thats all.
3) now the tr does not try to run away to come back stealthed. Well... fighting a GF while beeing visible and close to death is very stupid.
If you want people to stay for the match end even when you're sitting on a 600-10 score and you've decided to be ***-hats and spawn-camp, you need to give them a reason. Punishing them is not the answer. That's just pouring salt-acid into an already bleeding wound.
The hilarious part about your screener you added is that the rogue's position (even with that X not there) is quite evident. And the entire point to begin with was in the tips in the OP -- does a mark help a GF locate his prey? Sure looked like it to me LOL. The TR tried running around to flank the GF but it did no good.
Is the mark an easy foil for stealth? No... but it helps. And that was what was posted in the OP.
If you want people to stay for the match end even when you're sitting on a 600-10 score and you've decided to be ***-hats and spawn-camp, you need to give them a reason. Punishing them is not the answer. That's just pouring salt-acid into an already bleeding wound.
The mark does not help to see a stealthed TR because the mark is only shown in case that the TR is already targeted by the player...
From the FAQ: * Also, it should be noted that rogues who are in stealth are still very able to get effects such as Mark, Conduit of Ice, etc. applied to them. This makes spotting a stealthed rogue much easier for the player and his teammates.
If you believe that having a big red X on a mostly invisible enemy is not helping you know when he is targeted, then... I guess we're just gonna have to disagree on that. I'm kinda an old dude, I'll admit... seems like that X would help a codger like me, but maybe you young folks don't need that.
If you want people to stay for the match end even when you're sitting on a 600-10 score and you've decided to be ***-hats and spawn-camp, you need to give them a reason. Punishing them is not the answer. That's just pouring salt-acid into an already bleeding wound.
If you cant target the TR you cant do anything vs perma stealth TR!
90% of all useful PvP skills are requireing a target!
Dude, I would just repeat what everybody has already said before, because they are right:
1. Watch some videos... not just your main class but the other classes as well. Learn how they work. Pay attention to when they are forced to run or are beaten.
2. Roll a TR to get a feel of what it takes to play one. There's nothing that reveals a weakness in a strategy like trying it out for yourself.
3. When you get beaten, take a deep breath and re-assess instead of raging. Maybe it's time to shuffle your powers around for this match to adapt to who you are facing and what they are bringing against you. Maybe you need to cover some weaknesses in your own team.
4. Communicate with your team. Teamwork matters, and chances are not everybody you're playing with is an expert PVPer if you pugged.
Comments
Well I think this thread has been pretty well argued and respected for the most part. It's a nice thing to see, when I'm reading all your replies I see information I can use, examples that don't make me facepalm, and people giving away good tactics just to prove that you can level the playing field without ruining a developers month.
In Dom there's a robust award for capturing modes, so some players (people sitting at their computer) will spend most of the match ping ponging to wherever a opposition controlled node is. This leads to many uneven matchups in the rest of the field, and rogue benefits from this. If the player who left to cap two is a mage, he should probably follow and make the kill. If it was a GF who left to cap, maybe he stays and uses the 3-2 advantage to quickly take down two targets and control his current node.
You have to know when to move and when to stay, and the players on both sides determine where you should be.
I hate GFs for their stupid block which regenerates right after you completely removed it from them, not to mention how they can knockdown a whole team in one shot if you do not pay attention
I hate CWs for their stupid choke and freeze and longer range abilities (longer than my DC) and the stupid push
I hate DCs for their healing, 1v1 is stupid with them
I hate TRs for their CoS + Lashing Blade kills
there is nothing wrong with all the above, all classes have something of their own, something they are good at, none is invincible
the only problem atm are the high lvl enchants, which give the ability to one shot, other than that.. it's all good and fun
I play a TR and a DC and love both of them.
as a TR I get my lurker's assault interrupted very often, I get knocked down, pushed, slowed, dazed and hit while in stealth.. some times it hurts how stealth seems to not be a problem at all, for the other classes but it also saves me a lot allowing me to run away..
as a DC I don't have problems with TRs, it's not that hard to dodge their attacks, their animations are stupid slow and they are somewhat predictable (maybe to me, because I also play a TR) after a couple of minutes you already know their rotations
and I've killed TRs 1v1 with my DC (it makes them very angry
I admit as a DC sometimes I don't get any kills but I always top the assists chart and I am very satisfied when I save my teammates.. and when the entire opposing team focus on killing me, I feel good, it means I do my job and I'm a threat for them..
maybe it's off topic, but I just wanted to give my 2 cents
try to play the class that gives you a hard time, or talk to people who play that class, read on forums and find out how you can counter them
I think you say quite well what many rogues have said in the past in the nerf threads, and that's "if a class is giving you a hard time, try to play one to learn about them," and that is such excellent advice that it bears repeating. You can more easily handle rogues as a DC because you know them.
Good post.
Exactly, it's not just TR's out there. But what you are describing are the actions of the opponent, and that says absolutely nothing about the powers or skills of a TR. And all of that applies to all other classes.
IntRogue does nothing but play pvp with his guild, he's that good.
If he's got Tenacious Concealment up, he's taking 90% less loss to stealth from damage. He's also got a DC running in his team, so like you said, it's not just the TR out there.
Keyword is "easily", which is not impossible. Looking at the video I see lots of Rays of Enfeeblements, meaning the TR is not alone.
That applies to all classes: if they don't beat down on you, you beat down on them.
Repositioning means reseting CoS and it seems you still work under the false assumption that stealth is invisibility. It is not. There are a number of counters mentioned in this thread that relate to maneuvering, why do you ignore those?
Could it also be that the vocal minority on these boards have a rage of the week? Right now the absolute public OP class is: GF and GWF and TR and CW.... just DC not so much.
Could it be that a lot of posts are written by people who would rather whine than practice?
Yes, a lot of people could use better information before they come on the boards claiming OPness.
I take it you mean to say is that stealth has more benefits than any other power in the game, right?
Yet you also state there are no counters, while there are. A TR takes no stealthloss from damage, which they do. And stealth makes a TR impossible to target, which it doesn't.
So yes, I'd say I proved you wrong.
This is exactly what you are doing.
I know I won't either. That's why I stated on numerous occasions that the irrational will not be rationalized with.
Run out of ammo? I haven't been firing anything merely agreeing with some rational folks and telling them there's no point in arguing with the majority of you folks. We already agreed to disagree remember? You might want to think about some lubrication for that suppository I was talking about earlier though! :cool:
What it seems is that most people view the Perma-Stealth skill level and capabilities towards just 1 player, just because this 1 player is seemingly "OP" taking out multiple targets and not a scratch on him doesn't mean a newbie player can pick up this build, copy it, and expect the same results and I guess thats where most of the misconception comes from, seeing a good player play the game and people automatically say "This needs nerf" without knowing the basics of it all. So good job on the stealth mechanic FAQ
When the entire data set is considered, it becomes apparent that rogues are NOT undying death machines that cannot be defeated.
He does have a point though, it's tempting to tweak arguments a bit to better suit the point your making. And people only see what they want to see, us included. I know I tended to be a bit one-sided when I was only playing TR. But now I got to defend almost every class against unnecessary nerfs
If you want to 'prove' OPness of a class, or find ways to counter them, roll them, play them. There are several posts of people on the boards that did, and mostly they're loving it. You really need to get a feel of the class before you can nerf them.
Haha, well said.
But I think it's been made clear enough by now that nobody is saying the TR is a weak class or that they do not have the potential to really wreak havoc. I would just like to see that the root causes of these cases of total PWNage are correctly identified, and not based upon hyperbole and misconception.
Gear, Talent, Experience, Flexibility, Teamwork -- these are all factors that must be considered in order to make a valid argument either for or against nerf. IMO, with other classes having these same benefits, the game is pretty fairly balanced. Some folks like to point at permastealth as some kind of smoking gun, as if it should be impossible for some reason, while disregarding the sacrifices that must be made and the player skill it takes to make the build work well. If one applies that much dedication to any other class and gears it out in a similar "OP" fashion, with the same amount of experience with the class and so on, we have yet another "OP build"... and thus, the multitude of nerf threads concerning the other classes and not just the TR.
Is it the class itself that is making builds OP? Anyone looking at all the data is forced to say no.
I believe the argument is for perma stealth + ranged dmg nerf. Not solely stealth itself. Continue down playing it though. The small subset of data I see being focused on in defense of the video evidence is skilled player + gear/enchants. I sure am glad that this game has such a high skill cap for every class and that the gear and enchants aren't available to everyone! :rolleyes:
While I feel the same way about stealth+CoS+Enchantments, you can't deny the fact there are numerous nerf-threads out there that want to make stealth like wearing a paper bag to hide in.
Anecdotal: I just dinged my DC 60 and where pre-60 I could stand a hit or two, in green gear it's insta-kill post-60. I do understand the early frustration of any class first hitting major league pvp. I had it with every character. It also takes a couple of matches to get back in the game, my first runs on any class are a complete massacre, for me.
For all my classes I pvped for all the gear, and this is a great training exercise to get to know the class, its weakness and strength.
For me anyway, the biggest frustration is that it can be over so incredibly quickly. I just think this has more to do with (my lack of) skill than any OP power.
If I started pvp at level 60 (not saying you did, just that your example is so classic) I can understand the frustration that anyone of any class would have. Even in full Tier 1 pvp gear as a CW the difference between pre-60 pvp and pvp at 60 is amazing-its like a totally different (and worse) game.
At least if you build a "perma-stealth" rogue you can more easily choose your fights and stay out of the fire, which is what I often did as a rogue in the "weak levels" while levelling. Other classes just have to die.
But if you pvp extensively while levelling, you will know that the classes are actually really well balanced on the whole. I don't know exactly what makes the game change so much at level cap. Maybe there is a way to tone down CoS + stealth at level cap only if it really is an issue?
As much as people complain about it, its hard for me to understand because I never really had an issue on CW with rogues until level cap (and all the classes seem to hit way too hard anyway at that point), and as a rogue I felt I had a good trade-off by going either a stealth/trickster route that had good survivability (through lots of stealth) but did relatively little damage or a crit/damage build that did massive damage but was much more squishy.
I'm comparing what a class is capable of doing. End game... end of story. Saying something is not a bit over powered just because Sally and Latisha are unskilled or under geared is asinine.
I'm sorry, but this argument doesn't work since that is precisely what it is about. Someone who uses a permastealth build then plays it like LEEEEROY JENKINS isn't going to do as well as a GWF who plays that same way (which is a large number of GWF's). Skills and gear matter a tremendous amount, particularly when talking about permastealth rogues since most of them crumple like wet tissue paper when you hit them - which isn't hard unless they are very good at managing their cooldowns and movement.
This argument means that technically every class (well, not DC's) is overpowered since all are capable of being absolute monsters when properly geared and played by a skilled player.
@zellista: I'm sorry I missed you earlier. You posted this:
And I think that it is relevant to the discussion here, as this thread has sorta become a debate about CoS as well. Several rogues (myself included) are already on record here saying that a change to CoS would not be out of hand. I suggested a charge cap of 10 to take out the most damaging daggers at the end of the chain. But it has also been noted by others that folks who don't break the chain before those last couple of daggers are either CCed or don't know any better.
I will admit that I am undecided about this. It can be seen from one perspective to be wildly OP, but many of the anecdotes of folks getting creamed by CoS are forgetting that Lurker's may have been involved as well and that's +60%. I think more information would be handy, and what you posted above is a great start.
Thank you.
Lol I'm not sure how you guys interpret some of the things you interpret but it makes me
Don't try to overcomplicate things to muddy the waters, my friend... this is where we are at:
Theorem 1: Stealth is not OP because in order to roll face you must be full of high-end gear and know what you are doing, and even then it can be countered by classes who are equally geared and have the experience necessary to not make tactical mistakes when facing it.
Theorem 2: Stealth (perhaps specifically permastealth) is an OP mechanic due to its very nature, and gives the rogue an unfair advantage that cannot be adequately countered, despite gear, skill, experience, or teamwork.
I think I have done a pretty good job concatenating these theorems from various posts that have been made in this thread. Some of us agree more with #1, some of us more with #2. Evidence has been presented by both sides to support their viewpoints. There have been disagreements with the validity or relevance of this evidence.
Did I miss something, or does that look about right?
Fair enough. Let's see how you do.
Sorry wasn't attempting to muddy the waters. It looks like a pretty clear cut analogy to me. But yes those two theorems look to adequately cover the spectrum of this discussion.
Well, thats NOT true.
I tested it several times, marked as many TRs as possible in PvP by using threatening rush and enforced threat, and there was no "X" visible. I tried to block everything so that there was a small chance, to see the "X" on a stealthed TR ... but there wasnt anything. Visible TRs with a mark on them switched to stealth mode and lost the "X" in the moment stealth has been activated.
And here is the reason:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aM_IzklRmCE
Take a look at that video. Start at around 6:00, you'll see a rogue who gets nailed by a mark around 6:10, goes stealth shortly thereafter as he runs away, and the mark is still on him as he is invisible, until it wears off from time passing.
Here's another one, from the GF Perspective:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKSdDAYwCqE
Around 1:20ish, the GF finds a rogue and savagely pwns him, using a mark halfway through the rather short fight that sticks to the rogue even though he tries to go invisible and run away. Stealth didn't help. Amusingly, another rogue suddenly pops up and tries to gank the GF, who shrugs off the ambush and takes down the second rogue.
Used 0.25 speed... Video 2 is showing that all TR which said something about marks and stealth IS NOT TRUE! At 1:20 in Video 2 the TR is out of target area of the GF and the whole(!) TR disappears and the mark disappears too. In the moment the TR is in focus again, the TR and the mark is shown clearly.
Going stealth while beeing marked as TR: Mark is stealthed too and will be shown only in case that the TR will be targeted!
So plz all you TR ....
STOP LYING!
And here is the reason:
You keep trying to say that TR's are so OP -- watch that second video. I saw 2 TR's get wasted by a single GF in just the first two minutes. They tried lashing blades and everything... the GF blocked and wrecked them.
The TR went stealth and the mark went stealth too.
In the moment the TR will be targeted, the TR and the mark will be shown too.
A TR which is not targeted by YOU will not be shown for YOU. Marks does not change this fact. Watch video, reduce the speed of the video because the TR is out of focus for a very short duration or TEST it ingame before talking BULL SH*T in forums!
First Vid mark wasnt a "X", it was a "!". Doesnt look like an actual version of NW.
2nd video is showing what i said above.
the TR made a lot of mistakes!
1) riding near to enemies = free stun! Just hit them while they are on the horse and they are falling down (prone!)
2) stunlock of GF. TR is loosing 50-70% his hitpoints. thats all.
3) now the tr does not try to run away to come back stealthed. Well... fighting a GF while beeing visible and close to death is very stupid.
4) IT WAS NOT A PERMA STEALTH BUILD!
edit: 1:20 of the video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKSdDAYwCqE
The TR has been marked, went stealth and is not targeted by GF.
Do you see any mark? No.
And here is the reason:
The hilarious part about your screener you added is that the rogue's position (even with that X not there) is quite evident. And the entire point to begin with was in the tips in the OP -- does a mark help a GF locate his prey? Sure looked like it to me LOL. The TR tried running around to flank the GF but it did no good.
Is the mark an easy foil for stealth? No... but it helps. And that was what was posted in the OP.
The mark does not help to see a stealthed TR because the mark is only shown in case that the TR is already targeted by the player...
And here is the reason:
From the FAQ:
* Also, it should be noted that rogues who are in stealth are still very able to get effects such as Mark, Conduit of Ice, etc. applied to them. This makes spotting a stealthed rogue much easier for the player and his teammates.
If you believe that having a big red X on a mostly invisible enemy is not helping you know when he is targeted, then... I guess we're just gonna have to disagree on that. I'm kinda an old dude, I'll admit... seems like that X would help a codger like me, but maybe you young folks don't need that.
If you cant target the TR you cant do anything vs perma stealth TR!
90% of all useful PvP skills are requireing a target!
marks on a TR will increase the damage the TR will get by a very little percentage and thats all.
And here is the reason:
Dude, I would just repeat what everybody has already said before, because they are right:
1. Watch some videos... not just your main class but the other classes as well. Learn how they work. Pay attention to when they are forced to run or are beaten.
2. Roll a TR to get a feel of what it takes to play one. There's nothing that reveals a weakness in a strategy like trying it out for yourself.
3. When you get beaten, take a deep breath and re-assess instead of raging. Maybe it's time to shuffle your powers around for this match to adapt to who you are facing and what they are bringing against you. Maybe you need to cover some weaknesses in your own team.
4. Communicate with your team. Teamwork matters, and chances are not everybody you're playing with is an expert PVPer if you pugged.